- Date published:
6:00 am, January 22nd, 2022 - 136 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:
Open mike is your post.
For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.
The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).
Step up to the mike …
This from the Sydney Morning Herald today (Jacinda should take note of what is happening in WA):
"Since the nationwide lockdowns of early 2020, West Australians have endured just 12 days of lockdown, the vast majority of the time free of masks and other business-curbing social restrictions. Two years into the pandemic most West Australians have no first-hand experience of COVID-19, and they are not particularly interested in acquainting themselves with it.
It is why the dramatic late-night announcement by WA Premier Mark McGowan that the long-awaited February 5 border reopening would be postponed indefinitely was greeted with relief by many, likely still a solid majority. Who wants to get sick? Or wear masks? Or suffer crippling restrictions? No, thanks. Do you blame them?
[McGowan, the WA Premier] insists on more than 80 per cent third [booster] dose coverage before the border comes down, with all further details pending."
Yes, I agree that it's interesting & significant. Sensible psychology operating in WA – quite a contrast to NSW & Victoria!
McGowan is predictably copping a lot of flak. WA is a huge state with a lot of remote indigenous communities with very low vaccination rates. This is what McGowan said yesterday:
“I know I’m getting a lot of criticism. What we’re trying to do is save lives and save jobs at the same time,” McGowan said.
“A lot of people say we should be living with Covid. Well, there are 752 people in the eastern states no longer living with Covid,” he said, referring to the number of Australian Covid deaths so far in 2022. “You should ask their families whether we should deliberately infect large numbers of West Australians.”
WA has travel restrictions to protect those Aboriginal communities.
In regards to COVID deaths; ‘What were their underlying conditions?’, sounds an awful lot like ‘What was she wearing?’
I think it’s callous to see the deaths of people with diabetes, heart or kidney disease etc. as necessary cost of ‘opening up’.
You are just making things up now Arkie-those 752 are the Covid-related reported deaths.
What is it about you Boris/ScoMo pro-business fanatics that motivates you to ignore human suffering and death?
maybe reread what they said.
Fruit picking season is about to start. Is this the year many horticultural enterprises join urban businesses on the road to closure?
Britain has the same problem. But agriculture in Britain is 0.59% of GDP. While in New Zealand it's 6% of GDP, and our biggest export earner.
Surely some rich fuck from overseas is happy to buy these businesses a penny to a dollar.
And if anyone thought that fruit picking season was a mess last year, well its gonna be real messy this year.
Yep, took my mower in to get the blades changed this morning. Usually takes around 10minutes with a $25 service fee.
''No can do, mate,'' was the reply I received this morning. Why I asked, you don't look busy?
''We aren't busy,'' was the reply. I have lost my mechanic. He's left to help his dad pick the nectarine and peach crop on the the family orchard. They can't find workers.''
Marvellous!!! Now I have to change the blades myself.
No self respecting NZr with a name like Blade would consider paying someone to swap mower blades over.
Seems right wingers don't like getting their delicate hands dirty doing a task that doesn't require a mechanic.
Nice story though, or was it concern trolling..
''Seems right wingers don't like getting their delicate hands dirty doing a task that doesn't require a mechanic.''
Well, that's true about the delicate hands. My fingers and hands are required to be in pristine condition to feel the fretboards on my expensive guitars.
Where you come unstuck is believing changing a blade is an easy task on a new mower.
It used to be, and still is, if you have a bar blade. But if you have a plate with 4 mini blades, things become tricker. You will definitely need the RIGHT tools. You will be hoping the bolts haven't burred and penetration oil is not needed.
A simple time and motion study showed me it's easier to have the job done for me. Bike shops do similar. They don't repair punctures. They replace the tube. Only time warp lefties fix their own punctures using a bucket of water.
Then there's the problem of turning your mower up on its side to replace the blade. That's another no-no with a modern mower…but you probably know that.
Still no official word on why unemployed kiwis are not going for those jobs. I wonder how long the left & right will be able to maintain their collusion in silence?
My first guesses would be
-lack of transport to and from work
-lack of cheap affordable seasonal accommodation
-how will a seasonal job affect any benefits some may receive if they have to go back on the dole.
I met an older women working the sorting sheds – night shift- in Te Puke coming from Tokoroa. That is a two hour trip one way btw. She was in her 60s. 4 hours every day basic commute – unpaid of course. – So you need a car, money for patrol and such.
But lets again pretend that all bosses are evil and all unemployed people are lazy, that surely will make a difference.
Don't forget they will likely have to maintain accommodation costs in their hometown or risk not having housing when the season ends.
There are additional costs for NZers doing seasonal work.
I know that, but then it is easier to blame lazy unemployed people for not taking a job that they literally can't afford to take.
How much money is left over from Kiwibuild that could be used for high quality portable housing to help with seasonal work in various areas? Quite a bit judging by the lack of kiwibuild houses.
always lots of excuses why no one wants to work, not much practical in how to make it easy for them too
yep. The reason why working holiday people would do that work is because the conditions suited them. Make the job attractive to locals, or people living elsewhere to travel and live there for a while, and they'll do the work.
Setting people who do seasonal work up with tiny homes on wheels, or housebus/truck, caravan etc would help the situation as well as solve some of the housing crisis issues.
Not really a shortage of temporary accommodation back in my day, but the double-tapping of paying for that for a few weeks while also keeping a flat at home.
Or moving towns completely but only for a couple of weeks (but then you'd need something more than a shared room in a dorm).
Tourists have few possessions and few commitments and few connections. Residents need to actually make money to justify the gamble.
When I was picking fruit Accommodation was provided. Basic but free. So what happened ? Employers like to bad mouth Socialism but would socialise costs anytime. Profits of course are private !!
I have little sympathy for the one crop wonder boys.
There is a grower just north of whangarei who employs 70 staff full time. He has diversified so he has different crops maturing year round, some fruit some veges. He is also smart in that he has diversified his income stream
Absolutely Sabine. In my day as an apple picker (some time ago now) there was such a thing as a union and part of the pickers agreement was to be accomodated at a weekly rate not exceeding $2.50 per week. Even given the lapsed time it was still only 20 mins work to pay your accomodation if the orchardist even bothered to charge, and it usually included power. It was also quite a simple matter to get back on the dole. If the only way to make money from apples is to rip off the workers then is it really an industry we need?
Why would governments talk about employing NZers at real rates and conditions when there is more profit in running an immigration scam. Two seperate political parties. Only one political philosophy. Hence we get either shit light or shit dark. Its always shit though.
Scales Corp is NZ's biggest Apple business.
It has had very good earnings despite covid.
Mainly smaller growers are affected by imported labour shortages.
More investment in machinery to replace seasonal labour is required.
"More investment in machinery to replace seasonal labour is required."
Yes it is….but then there is the issue of what we do about employment. If fewer and fewer large scale businesses are operating with less and less labour their profits will have to be taxed higher to allow for transfers to support the rest of the economy…..and we know how business feels about about taxation as well as knowing who has the politicians ears.
Or perhaps the investment is public and the dividends are returned to the citizenry….that sounds like something of an anathema to 'business.'
You really are the poster child for the idiocy of the moderation policy on this site. An obvious right wing concern troll pushing right wing talking points, yet the the two main active moderators are mainly concerned with policing the left.
The upshot of it is the comments section of this site now resembles a slightly younger version of the Herald.
bwaghorn would no doubt support your comment, Sanctuary.
Yes indeed Robert Guyton.
Much of the "policing" has centred on curbing typical Woke excess … the mindless demonisation of entire demographics.
Let's be clear: Wokedom aint "the Left" … it's an Elitist Vanity Project … deploying camouflaged self-interest, an authoritarian, profoundly anti-democratic consolidation of power, financial privilege & in-group status,while systematically scapegoating a whole swathe of working people & poorer pensioners in the most cowardly & sadistic way … transforming them into second-class citizens in housing, health & increasingly other sectors. Always by stealth, always venomously contemptuous of democracy & majority opinion.
In core respects, the antithesis of the genuine Left … almost a new form of Toryism
Probably inevitable when 400-buck-an-hour virtue-signalling Middle-Class Professionals slowly capture the upper echelons of both the parliamentary & organisational wings of nominally "Left" Parties. Clearly an international phenomenon.
You yourself, Sanctuary, seem to fluctuate wildly between occasional hard-hitting critiques of Woke excess, followed a week or two later by a smattering of equally enthusiastic cheerleading for precisely the same dogmatic phenomenon. Quite baffling.
Nah, man, when it's all just lefties, it gets really boring here.
What's a concern troll, Weka? And…should I be worried?
worried about what?
Concerns, I would imagine
It sounds like a terminal condition that maybe only Righties can catch?
more like a chronic condition that dickheads induce.
But the term does get thrown around as an accusation too much too.
I have got to thinking that the RW people come here because:
1 well have you ever been on a RW blog? full of opinion, 'lefties' accusations, inability to mount an argument. Full of farcebook one liners etc etc. Although I don't agree with everyone's views on here most of the posts are well thought out, heartfelt, referenced.
I value them (RW posters who abide by the rules) because:
2 when people respond to RW views it gives me food for thought and possible talking points when in real life.
3 because of standards of moderation and, mostly, cited arguments from RW people I may learn something.
I think though:
A) authors should not moderate their own posts, they should have a formal reply or clarification function in response
B) authors should not be able to moderate anyone off the site, this should be left to the team of moderators
C) RW moderators should not be able to moderate anyone off the site. this also should be left to the remaining team of moderators.
I value RW commenters likewise. Sanctuary is probably right that left wingers get moderated more than RW ones. I notice this. But it's because RW commenters are less in number, so there are more LW ones pushing the boundaries or breaking the rules.
I don't see any right wing comments on this site. People with a RW orientation might come and read the material here but I don't see any comments that are more than being from just a little bit to the right of centre. Nothing at all from further right than a traditional Liberal viewpoint in fact.
Lots of stuff from the left, the far left and people who make Mao, Pol Pot and Kim Jong-Un look sane of course.
I'm still trying to work out how posting the GDP percentage differential for agriculture between NZ and Britain is ''pushing right wing talking points, '' according to Shanwreagh.
But there you have it. It's certainly different when Liberals are in the house.
Not sure I have ever talked about GDP percentage differential for ag or responded to anyone who was pushing RW talking points on this topic.
My forays into ag have mainly been in support of regen ag and on the silliness of some aspects of the farmer protests (ie you run the risk of marching beside some 'different' bedfellows once you start on a protest march as the last one in Wellington showed with the MAGA and Trumpie people)
The comment you’re referring to was made by Sanctuary, not Shanreagh.
Sanctuary was essentially complaining that you are have Right wing views but don’t always make it obvious.
Correct. Sorry Shanreagh, my mistake.
''Right wing views but don’t always make it obvious.''
I don't think Sanctuary is that good at nuances.
None so blind, alwyn? There've been a few Standard outbreaks of Jacinta Jacinta, Cindy Cindy Cindy, and Comrade Princess, not to mention the occasional Fool making no secret of their scumminess, but rwnjs know that it's Ardern who continues to outclass their champions, one after the – ‘Next’.
You are probably right. There were no doubt a few occurrences of Jacinta, Cindy etc along the way.
I'm sure there were a lot more Jonkey's or shonky Johnkey, Paula Benefit, blinglish and Luxton to go with them. Were they offensive or did you see them as the height of wit?
Whatever they were and whatever the twists on Jacinda or Ardern they were hardly in hanging territory were they? They also don't display and left wing or right wing traits. They are all just people who confuse being a wit with being a twit.
Quite right alwyn – are you surprised, given where you are commenting?
And I’m pleased that your eyesight has improved
The smears against Clarke Gayford by rwnjs here and elsewhere really speaks to their ‘character”, imho. If will be a minor miracle if another Clarke slur doesn’t surface ahead of the next general election, given that Luxon is now in charge.
Were they like the comments made about Max Key? I never actually saw any of these fabled comments about Gayford but I saw references to the fact they existed. I suspect they were immediately deleted from and blog where someone might have tried to post them.
You say "The smears against Clarke Gayford by rwnjs here …". Are you seriously saying that they were posted on this site. I would find that very hard to believe that they would have survived for more than a minute or two.
So it's cataracts. "Vile rumours" of that type do occasionally surface here – maybe they're allowed to ‘survive’ as a warning to other fools?
Your guess is at least as good as mine as to what the next smear will be – I doubt even brother Luxon could purge the influence of Dirty Politics within the National party and its supporters, even if he wanted to.
I'm sure you will provide a link to one if such a thing existed. I personally don't think they exist on this site. I can't believe that lprent would allow them to remain here.
I am not going to waste my time looking for something that only you say exists.
Link provided @188.8.131.52.2, and again @7:03 pm.
I'd get that checked out – Should've gone to Specsavers
Is that what is supposed to have got the Police Commissioner involved?
Jeez, didn't Coster have better things to do than check out this rubbish? Still, yes, you did produce a link to stupid rumours being floated on this site. Mind you, in this day and age, who cares?
Exactly how many unemployed Kiwis do you think there are ?. Much less city ones who can maintain two rental payments a week for 6 weeks until the season is over. In the northern SI there is no one who isn’t working that can work, the wineries even pre-omicron will be looking at 75% staffing for harvest if they are lucky.
Yes I have heard that too. But, and there is always a but, some employers work on a Field of Dreams approach, build it and they will come. I know of many over 60s who would love to do something like this but
Years ago I worked in a food processing plant in Hastings HB.
It had free buses leaving from central points & waypoints, north and south of the factory at a couple of times before the shifts started. Then again on the way home. I am not sure if they do this any more. There were also buses for people doing the picking.
Same are you talkin about watties ?first job at 15 just left school managed to last two weeks remember first day thinking what ?no morn smoko ?and then shit we must be working though lunch time as well whats goin on oh no !eventually i found out was only half past nine !!We stole fruit to survive had no money you could fit a can of peaches in the top of each gumboot pull yr
overalls down over them an walk out like that worked a charm an kept us alive . In those days canned fruit was actually quite good its crap now alas .Latest news says watties in hastings needs one hundred and fifty more workers now.
So you are a criminal..like Meteria ..we will hound you and track ..you down…now!
Weston …..yes they were early starts. We were there by 7.00am after catching the bus out of Napier to go to Birds Eye in Hastings. It was a holiday job and gee did I love it. By the time I left I was a chargehand on the corn line. I was there just over 3 months. They offered me a permanent job and that was when my dad put his foot down and said 'go-back-to -'varsity.'
They used to let the staff take all the mislabelled tins at the end of each week. Course the mislabelling mostly meant no labelling so it was a bit hit & miss as to what was in the tins you got. If you were smart, and I eventually cottoned on, you remembered what the lines had been doing that week, usually only a couple of things and labelled the top 'tomatoes or green beans' or 'peaches or green beans'. Otherwise it was a glorious mystery as to what was going to be in your tins. I made lots of green bean and tomato quiche things when I was actually wanting tomatoes and peaches.
I had some wonderful holiday jobs, worked with happy people who were working there fulltime. Toothpaste factory and plumbing supplies making and bending (wrong word) copper pipes on big machines. And yes females had differential (lower) rates from males for doing the same job…..Good union people. Aah well.
Luke Malpass looks at Labour's legislative agenda for this year:
Dunno if this is significant – to treat Three Waters as a can to be kicked down the road is likely to drop Labour poll ratings. The PM ought to include it as priority unless she can conjure up good reasons for discounting it.
Obviously it's logical to blame the Minister of Finance for inept new financial law. Strangely, Luke sidesteps Occam's Razor in favour of convolution:
He presents a picture as overview. It's an excellent illustration of how a picture is worth a thousand words…
So it looks like financial law becomes part of commerce when enacted. Robertson manages to slip off the hook of accountability.
yeah I get that there's two sides to that
within Labour it'll be scaredy-cats vs policy zealots
'The start of the year has also revealed a major problem with one of Labour’s earlier changes – its revamped Credit Contracts and Consumer Finance Act (CCCFA), which came into force in December. The changes, designed to protect vulnerable borrowers from predatory lending practices or loan sharks, have resulted in middle New Zealand being whacked in a Government-induced credit crunch.'
Prudent lending practice would should have recognised the requirements with or without the revamp.
'The New Zealand Bankers’ Association publishes a “regulatory radar” of law and regulation changes worrying member banks. The larger, redder, and more central the star, the more urgent and important the issue. The new lending law star is large, red and in the centre. Clark and the Government will have to fix this quickly.
Fix it alright!-5 billion per annum in profits going offshore.
The less regulation the more the banks…like it.
Changes to protect vulnerable borrowers sees headline after headline of would be borrowers upset their bank asks them about spending $287 at K Mart or people finding it too hard to lie low in their spending for 3 months.
Banks ask about spending, outgoings and income. Some people in banking are pedantic. No surprise. Should borrowers expect a cruisy ride?
Political beat up…the banks are laughing all the way…..to
I have noticed how Harvey Normans has been running a 60 months interest free offer for over 12 months now…with wraparound Herald and T.V advertising .
Maybe the music stops sometime this…year.
Ponzi schemes loses money. Who woulda thunk it?
Conservatives unable to keep up:
I really can't see how they expect to be politically effective if they remain stuck in 2019 in their heads. Right-thinking ought to incorporate temporal context!
There's also the question around political astrology. To be effective, one must be able to specify which stars are aligning with what. Doesn't matter that it worked for Reagan – one swallow doesn't make a summer…
I read that about 8.00 am this morning and thought: "It's 2022. That doesn't make sense. Poor proof-reading? Undetected error?"
Apparently so. UPDATED now appears at the top. And that sentence in the article now reads:
Eloquent and succinct – former MD Alison Goodwin on “What is going on”
That there are desires for the scenario she describes I dont doubt,,im not sure that the current vaccine pass is its precursor….but I may well be wrong.
However I am increasingly concerned that the mandating of those that choose to be unvaccinated is becoming entrenched (i initially thought it was a bluff used to increase up take and would be quietly dropped)…..and I am becoming increasingly reluctant to be 'boostered' with a vaccine that appears of little benefit with the latest variant, or to see the under 12s vaccinated without strong evidence of benefit.
And then there are other unanswered questions….
You should be extremely cautious about any results which show boosters are not effective. There are very confusing cofounders at play in virtually all data in these cases, which can lead to miss-leading results. I showed an example of this, in that NZ Maori & Polynesians are over-all accepting vaccination at a lower rate than any of the age groups which comprise the overall data.
See "Vaccine uptake per rate ratio (unadjusted) Māori and Pacific compared with Non-Māori non-Pacific 12+" where there are wider rate differences overall than for any age group making that up.
The same kinds of thing can happen for most covid related data when these cases are not well understood.
Here is a post doing correct estimates and working through all the potential issues.
Yes there are wider rate variations by cohort than in total due to demographics as has been noted previously…and your linked study is pre Omicron….and even so I draw your attention to point 9
9. Boosters provide further protection but it is not yet clear whether they are necessary for the younger age groups.
And the issue of mandates is unaddressed…..especially when nobody thought 90% of eligible was achievable yet we have exceeded that.
I'm just highlighting the need for evidence and very careful statistical modeling in evaluating claims like, boosters appear to have little benefit. Doing this incorrectly can mean that the 13.7% protection against death you perceive massively understates the 93.8% protection against death which actually occurs in the >60 cohort (or even the 68% protection against death for vaccinated but un-boosted).
Yes, it would be good to see studies incorporating up to date data (since Omicron). The same statistical fallacies are occurring in data relating to Omicron vs Delta variants and lower vaccine efficacy against Omicron of course.
Dont dispute the need to be careful with statistics.
And is why I am increasingly concerned about current events.
"Mandates"* had a huge public health component far and above the persuasion to be vaccinated, in fact the health factor was the main part, at least I took it as the main part.
It goes like this……when people go to be treated at hospitals there is an expectation that they will be treated for the illnesses they came in for and not acquire any another life threatening infection while there and while their defences are down. These infections are called nosocomial infections and even before Covid pneumonia was one that did occur.
Hospitals therefore needed to introduce special measures to deal with Covid. We had PPE and stand downs until the vaccination came along.
Covid is so infectious and the vaccination seemed a simple way to minimise the risk of Covid infections spreading within hospitals. The reasons for not accepting a vaccine that I have read, especially now that there are two to choose from mRNA based Pfizer and Astra Zeneca, seem mired in social media woo woo.
Health staff have been given options. The basic point is that we cannot afford to have the potential for covid to get away in our hospitals from staff who fail to be vaccinated.
My flatmate is a nurse and she says she and her fellow nurses are looking on in amazement at the very few who have stood out, she mentions that it is a requirement before beginning nursing training to be vaccinated and maintain vaccination of a range of vaccines most of us have not come across. Defence personnel have the same requirements when signing on. They have regular testing as well.
Teachers spend days with their classes and would be powerful spreaders of the virus to their students, some of whom would have been severely affected by catching Covid and may have been consigned to a life with Long Covid.
The requirement to protect diners was both a public health measure and a measure to enable businesses to be able to trade through …it came in with the traffic light system. This was a recognition that Covid may be here for the long haul and enables vaccinated businesses and people to keep the businesses pumping along at different levels.
I had no thought that the intro of the 'mandates' was anything other than for real.
At the time the Govt had examples from overseas where front facing jobs had a requirement to be vaccinated. For all the bluff and bluster from the anti vaxxers, firms such as United Airlines with a staff of 67,000 had a vaccine requirement and 232 employees were unvaccinated and lost their jobs. ,
*Mandates is a loaded word. I never use it. Better wording that is more indicative of what it is is
on the job requirements
The thing is that these requirements are usually prior to employment and people who do not want vaccines or on the job drug testing etc won't apply for jobs that require them, they self select out.
As for not achieving 90%. many that I get around with thought that in true NZ style we would overshoot. We have a history of this, examples are the telethons, our responses to crises overseas etc etc
That's very well expressed, Shanreagh and I find myself in full agreement with what you've written.
the point about the multiple reasons for the mandates, especially in health care settings is very well made.
Thing is though, a left wing position on worker rights would be that if you lose your job because the job changes, you should be looked after in some way. It's unconscionable that the Labour party basically said to people 'too fucking bad, two NZs now'.
So let's be honest about this too. Part of that is because the government needed to get the vax rate very high very quickly. It couldn't take 6 months to get enough people on board via outreach and public education. It had to coerce. Which it did with the mandates in multiple ways. Not only the actual mandates, but also the messaging: 'you can choose to not vaccinate, but there is something wrong with you and we're going to make sure you know that and we're not going to help you'
That shit may well come back and bite us.
The government couldn’t afford to be kind to those citizens, and tbh for people like Ardern, it looks to me like she didn’t want to either.
Lots of lefties think that is fine, but remember this is the same shit that the right does when relating with beneficiaries.
And until Omicron I would have supported that view entirely, however indications are that what was true before may not be so now. If transmission is unimpacted by vaccination, and boosters are to be required every few months to maintain some level of reduced hospitalisation (but not infection or transmission) then we may need to re-evaluate.
And that includes the logic of mandates.
As stated earlier (as someone who was double vaccinated from when I was eligible) the ever changing requirements are cause for concern and i know of a good many who feel the same way, however the increasing propensity to dismiss concerns will not make the issue disappear rather it is likely to entrench it.
Here's how I understand it. We need to get as many people boosted as possible that are in the right time band.
This is to protect them from hospitalisation and/or death (and possibly long covid).
It is also to protect the health system from overwhelm, and wider society (eg the impact on workplaces).
Where vaccination lessens the chance of getting covid, it also lessens transmission.
(and let’s not forget we still have delta).
There is a lot we still don't know about omicron. Globally (but should have better data in a few weeks), but also in NZ, which has bucked the trend all through the pandemic.
I tend to agree that we won't tolerate 3 monthly boosters, but I'm not sure we are at the point of having to make that decision.
Pfizer are developing a vaccine against omicron, available in March? I guess available here going into winter.
We don't know if a new variant will come into being in that time, globally or in NZ.
We don't know how omicron will play out with long covid. That's a huge issue.
So many unknowns. It makes sense to me to use the tools we have now to protect as many people as possible directly and indirectly.
I don't understand the government's decision to not use regional boundary restrictions, I'm guessing that they are thinking omicron will be uncontrollable so why wreck the economies. I think they are probably wrong on this. The international border is easier to understand, but I think they should have turned the tap down further than they did for a period of time.
None of that is permanent.
The problem is we just don't know how things are going to go this year. I'm not seeing anything that supports the idea yet that letting omicron rip is a good idea or even a necessary evil. We're at the point in the emergency where we are stacking sandbags and waiting to see if the tide turns soon enough.
Understandably this is very hard for many people to tolerate. Those of us used to uncertainty and precarity have a different skill set and perspective. What we really should be doing at this point is teaching resiliency en masse, because this is the tutorial for climate catastrophe.
Indeed there is much unknown as yet about Omicron (and much to be determined about the earlier variants and the long term effects of multiple vaccinations)
As to boosters I know of several people who have had the booster and complain of increased impact on their health…the progression seems to be 1st jab no or little effect, second jab increased side effects but manageable, but booster wipes them out for days…..and no enthusiasm for a further booster….and a questioning of the need to vaccinate under12s
If Omicron is as transmissible as it appears overseas then the health system is going to be overwhelmed regardless of mandates.
Given we are currently at 94% of eligible double vaccinated (yes there are pockets of lower coverage) many are feeling somewhat duped in that the country has done more than asked but the rules keep changing and the imposition increasing.
You may assert that none of this is permanent but nor has it an end date.
And as to the economy….the damage has already been done so its not the consideration.
I don't get this argument. The mandates protect the health system imperfectly but still more than if no mandates.
Yes, people feel this, but the reality is that the virus adapts and then so we have to, one way or the other. I think we're in this for a number of years, and the whole 'it will soon be over narrative' is probably unhelpful.
It's not permanent in the sense of everything is still in flux. It may well end up being permanent. Or not.
Pretty sure it's core to Labour's thinking. It's not like the damage was a finite thing, more can still happen.
And I dont get how you dont get it….if Omicron evades the vaccine as it appears what purpose do the mandates serve?…none. They dont restrict transmission, or illness.
And more damage will be done to the economy, but not by covid, in fact the economy may well push covid into the background.
afaik pfizer x 2 +booster provides meaningful protection against omicron. This is central to NZ's current pandemic response, the point of holding back omicron as much as possible is to gain time to get more people boosted.
"afaik pfizer x 2 +booster provides meaningful protection against omicron."
and yet Australia….with a higher vax and booster rate than us.
I don't think that is true, pat.
NSW vaccination rates Hard to tell from this but 12+ rates in NSW is on or south of 90%
NZ vaccination rates NZ 93% fully vaccinated 12+, and 95% booked. Waitemata 95%, Auckland 98%, Counties Manukau 93%.
Also Australians refuse to wear masks.
Our world in data has Australia at 78.2% of total pop double vaxed and 23.6% boosted
New Zealand at 76.8% of total pop double vaxed and 18.5% boosted as at 20/1/22
Yes, there are some differences in vaccination reporting, but like I said, Australia refuses to wear masks. They think they are better than that, and are far less likely to adhere to Covid restrictions because their dumb-ass federal government insists on sowing discord, confusion and mistrust in the community for political gain.
Protection is provided by a number of tools, including but not limited to vaccination+ booster. Australia gave up many of its protection tools late last year. And they've had omicron in the community, we haven't. Not really sure what your point is though. The comparison would be Australia now and Australia all other things being equal but with no vax or boosters.
The world in data info is collected directly from the relevant health authorities.
As to mask wearing the Australian rules have been almost identical to our own …and by all accounts Ive heard they are widely adopted.
The penalties in Australia for non compliance of covid regs are stiffer than our own.
Anecdotally, a Melbourne shopping centre was full of unmasked patrons in the post Christmas period. This relayed to me by a friend who visited his mother there.
I went to Sylvia Park on Boxing day. Tens of thousands of happy, masked shoppers.
By all accounts I've heard, Australians don't do Covid restrictions well, including masks. Kiwis are more compliant which I believe is a large part of our superior pandemic response.
If injections don't prevent the spread of Omicron but reduce the impacts of infection. And if the aim to alleviate possible pressures on health care systems…then what is the point of injecting people who would likely never have ended up in hospital in the first place?
Have injections available for the elderly, the vulnerable and the scared.
That would have been (has always been) the approach of public health when the tool is a vaccine that does not prevent transmission of a virus.
The NZ government’s response is "public health" in name only.
The vaccines protect against infection as well as severity of illness if one gets covid.
Excellent points Weka in both of your posts.
"and maintain vaccination of a range of vaccines most of us have not come across."
This is simply not true, certainly at Mid Central.
Nursing staff get offered the annual 'flu jab and anecdotally, surprisingly few take it up.
More fool them.
Flatmate rushing getting ready for shift, I said 'what do you think of nurses not keeping their vaccines up to date?'
Raised eyebrow with the 'what a weird idea' look. In a conversation on this prior she says that on her large ward she knows of no nurse that is not covid up to date with booster and has only heard of a couple on other wards.
NB not all the vaccines have to be renewed annually.
I had smallpox and yellow fever to travel, and rubella. Flatmate has had these too.
Travel advisories for NZ travellers
Smallpox hasn't been vaccinated for since 1972.
Beyond Covid, I am curious to know what other mandated 'boosters' your flatmate claims are needed.
I was vaccinated for those vaccines on the travel schedule.
I understand Tetanus is one that is not lifelong.
Not sure what the point about the mandated…this seems to be putting a 2021/22 spin on what were/are pretty standard conditions of employment in health sector and occupations such as plumbers to keep one's vaccines up to date.
Any chance you could cite something more authoritative than your flatmate when you make this assertion?
"and maintain vaccination of a range of vaccines most of us have not come across."
Nurses I know draw a blank when I ask them.
My flatmate did a nursing degree & is a registered nurse.. For this degree she and her classmates had to have a list of vaccines, right at the start of the degree, and these had to be kept current…….similar requirements are set for plumbers etc……the topic has been discussed further on in TS in recent days and other trades/professions added to those that require a range of vaccines. My flatmate has had vaccines that I have had as I travelled overseas in the days when you had to have those on the yellow vaccine card. Many people, these days do not have them.
Defence Dept personnel, on joining are required to have vaccines and keep them up to date (I know this as I was married to one). I think that some of the vaccines on the list of requirements are not required every year.
My flatmate has to have a flu injection annually and was required to have the Covid vaccinations. She has worked/is working at large public hospitals and says that they are reminded by email each year about getting updates to their vaccinations…..
Some health workers looking after people in their own homes are/were? not required by their employers to have up to date vaccinations. When our mother was still alive we did not allow any health worker to look after her that did not have a Flu vaccine as a minimum. Many home care workers do have vaccinations for tetanus and the like and get the boosters when needed.
I find it rather odd that your contacts don't recall being vaccinated for tetanus when boosters are needed, annual influenza injections etc.
TS discussion re plumbers https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24-01-2022/#comment-1854436
health sciences requirements are in the post nearby from Drowsy…..
"I find it rather odd that your contacts don't recall being vaccinated for tetanus when boosters are needed, annual influenza injections etc."
Tetanus is available but not compulsory.
Ditto annual (last years) 'flu jab.
I feel your flatmate may be mixing up encouraged to maintain and mandatory.
It may seem a trivial point. In this climate of getting things right, I am keen for the record to be set straight.
I am aware of the conversation regarding plumbers and overseas nurses.
It is a trivial point you are making.
My flatmate’s & neighbour’s views are on all fours with that those of their employer. Their employer can rely on them to keep current, but I am sure that there will be others who need reminding…..possibly a number of times.
Both have said that they are aware of very small numbers of nurses leaving over the covid vaccination requirement. None on her wards but she knew of a couple on other wards. We are talking small numbers.
The health professionals I deal with have/had no problem in fulfilling any requirements for vaccines and maintaining these. Most would do this because of both one's own health and that of patients who will be in hospital because their health status is not optimum. So if reminded to get their tetanus booster then they would do it…..end of. They would not need to be chased up.
You missed the health sciences people that Drowsy put up.
There is a nursing degree at most universities.
Jeff Tiedrich's (he is from the US) tweet of 12/10/21 springs to mind, excuse the language
"Holy fucking shit, vaccine mandates are causing teachers who don't believe in science to quit, nurses who don't believe in medicine to quit, and cops who don't believe in public safety to quit. I'm failing to see the downside to this".
I only asked for you to back up your assertion of compulsion of vaccines for nurses.
Nothing to do with other health science folk, nor you or your acquaintances attitudes to vaccination.
I feel you are the one that is putting a contemporary twist. Clearly, for you it feels right that nurses be obligated to be vaccinated because plumbers, health science folk etc.
It's just that it ain't so.
I prefer the original,
I also like an original with same name but a harder edge:
@gsays. If vaccines are not compulsory why are nurses now leaving?
I make no bones about believing what she says. She was required to have a range of vaccines on starting the degree and is required to maintain these while in a hospital setting.
Is that what you call compulsion?
I call it common sense and reasonable. Most reasonable people would not see it as compulsion but would know that their employer has rights and can warn, warn terminate over some thing as fundamental
I also call reasonable any employer, including in the health sector, who takes action to terminate employment if requirements are not met. So if she let slip on some of her vaccine requirements she is sure that action would be taken…but there are other occupations that are required to do things that we might feel are onerous.
The large hospitals she works in/has worked in operate a reminder system by email about upcoming requirements. She has had the ones on the travel schedule as working in a large hospital she may be required to nurse someone with one of them- say a recent immigrant or traveller.
I make no bones about knowing that both my flatmate and next door Dr believe in the science and are reasonable people. Neither would want to jeopardise their health or their job by playing around in not getting updates or yearly vaccines. Why would they take their employer to the brink of a termination by not getting vaccines…
Of course I accept that other hospitals may not enforce vaccines, their choice. My flatmate knows that her hospital does enforce vaccines.
I do not want to get into any squirming around, word salads or nuances of meaning to met your need to go 'shock horror', compulsion, mandate.
It is a fact, take it or leave it.
What rubbish about the health sciences……and wanting nurses to be vaccinated because of them.
I only knew about the nurses and Drs requiring to be vaccinated. And my ex husband had a range of vaccines being in the military. The knowledge about the plumbers and health sciences people I found out about in response to some of my posts on TS. Actually I did know but had forgotten about the plumbers.
If your nurses have done degrees did they not have the vaccine requirements?
What a load of rot. Good riff on "Morpheus recruits Neo" at the start, though.
Firstly, we do look at those things she was going on about with "if this was truly about health". Hell, the suicide thing for a start has been repeatedly debunked publicly. Yet still this [no longer practising] doctor is pretending it's not been discussed?
Secondly, the future she wants requires covid to not exist. It's one thing to say that the government is leveraging covid to increase control, it's another thing entirely to pretend that covid doesn't exist. Why, just today I saw a thing about from a [not a medical] Doctor that proves covid has killed 17,000 people at a minimum in the UK, and maybe hundreds of thousands more.
But let's say this is all about "control" rather than ensuring that people in situations with high numbers of close contacts have at least a modicum of immunity and physical protection (masks) against infection or symptoms. Let's pretend that's true for a moment:
My theory is ..this is the connection…
'The academic scholars that compiled the Fed’s loans during the financial crisis for the Levy Economics Institute also provided cumulative tallies. Their tally, which included additional Fed bailout programs not included by the GAO, came to $29 trillion.-Wall St On Parade'.
Follow the money…never fails.
@$40 a second it takes 792 years to spend one trillion.
Houses in NZ cost $1million…very …good….any war drums…beating,what distractions to a financial catastrophe are…around?
OK, so the pandemic is a distraction from financial collapse because of theft by the capitalist class.
Then why the covid apps? Lockdowns, sure. Letting the disease run rampant while having xmas parties – sure. Both cause disruption and piss people off (the latter one with mass death, starting with at least 17k and likely going as high as a hundred times that, if not more).
But how does a qr code app distract from financial crises, any more than it increases "control" that the population has already taken on board willingly??
So as Meatloaf said 2 out of 3 ain't bad!
If you look at world indebtedness…crypto,and the move to a cashless society..you will see that 'control' needs to be contoured to identifying every person and their activity/movements/ and sentiments.
The 'hearts and minds ' were easily assuaged by corporate MSM ,but now the internet is such a rich vein of information that reality is a threat to perception.
Smedley -Butlers epiphany' is proof of..that.
2/3 for covid, maybe. But why would the powers that be spend money on apps for things we're eagerly adopting anyway?
Crypto is like cash, but without the convenience, transaction speed, or ubiquity. It makes you stand out, so if you're doing it to lay low it's counterproductive.
But the main problem for the conspiracy theories is that something like covid was going to happen anyway, and the capitalists would make money off it anyway. There's always a crisis or some international tension.
They say never let a crisis go to waste…
So you think the expansion in debt by trillions since 2008 backed by U.S military force is completely logical and its quite clear that an average house in NZ is worth ..$1 million ….very good..nothing to see here…hang on..China's human rights are a BIG problem,and Russia has troops on its own …border!OMG…
No, I don't think that.
I just don't understand why some apparently believe that covid is realistically just an excuse to gain "control" that the population has already ceded.
I don't understand the objectives, methodology, or logic of any plan that would fit that portrayal.
Well how does distraction or truth figure in the big picture?
As I have pointed out numerous times 25,000 people die EVERYDAY from starvation…what have you got to say about ..that?
Well, I suppose it suggests that the people arguing against already redundant measures of "control" are providing the distraction. Predictability can be useful, I guess.
It's bad? Not sure how an app would prevent it, though. But I can see the point for apps to reduce the impact of a pandemic.
Yes I am in total agreement with you ..that an App would not prevent 25,000 dying of starvation.
I guess when it comes to deaths we have to get our ..priorities ..right.
Don't you just love 'conspiracy theorists' . . . they are so, so off kilter to be really entertaining!
Just remembering Meatloaf.
From David Farrier
Republican and anti vaxxer who died from Covid I find now…….who cares about his views, the music!!!!!
I did hear someone say I will do anything for love, but I won't get vaxxed. RIP
This is from Oct 2021, but superb burn from the bods at the MoH,
Picked up this tweet form your link;
Pretty much sums up the strident anti-vaxxers.
Edit: as opposed to those unvaccinated for acceptable reasons.
Seems to me that someone with privileges associated with being an author who abuses such a position should in turn have sanctions imposed on them. If this doesn't happen then maybe the community could boycott any further posts by that particular "author".
What 'abuses' would they be..then?
Surprised you haven't < a href="https://thestandard.org.nz/uk-covid-deaths-with-no-underlying-factor/#comment-1853730">seen it</a>
I’ve stuffed the link up, I believe this to be an abuse of power: “That comment was the very final comment you ever made beneath one of my posts on ‘the standard’.”
I've not posted until recently since early October because I was dismayed by the misinformation freely promoted by two powerful right wing vaccine/pandemic sceptic moderators resident at this forum. And by their powerful control over ordinary commenters at The Standard, and their immunity from the actual rules of the site itself.
I acknowledge the efforts of weka and lprent in calmly challenging the dangerous promotion of misinformation by these vaccine/pandemic sceptic moderators, but it has been painful to watch.
I disagree with boycotts on some issues.
Boycotting posts that involve covid minimisation or misinformation (and broaden the exposure of others who do the same) would simply leave such information unchallenged, even if it were to contain serious omissions or errors in anything from math to basic anatomy. Would that be an echo chamber, or a recruiting station?
Lies can run around the world before the truth has its boots on. If a subject of great importance happens to be in someone's area of knowledge and misinformation can cost lives, please try to make the lie have to carry your weight for a bit.
Truth might catch up eventually.
But it's like whack-a-mole with these guys. It does not matter how many times they are challenged on misinformation. Cornered, they double down and become more virulent.
I like the idea of a boycott because their lies are left to sit idle in an empty chamber.
I think it’s time the proletariat, us, stood up with our voices like bwaghorn did, or our silence. They can’t ban us all.
But if the chamber is left empty to fester by itself, I wonder how many posts where an author ends up suggesting that the covid UK death toll might not even be 1% of the official toll would enventually end up in links on FB groups or twitter, or other blogsites?
It is whack-a-mole, sure. But the objective isn't to persuade the mole.
When someone new reads the post and discussion (and might not realise that "50% efficacy" isn't equivalent to a toss of a coin whether you get it), if the comments include "you have a basic error of fact here" the reader might think a bit more closely about the content.
Well, a huge amount of ordinary people's time is being spent continually putting out anti-vax fires when it's probably best to just kick the the fire-setters out.
Also, newcomers are going to read vaccine sceptic and ivermectin promoting posts and believe this is what The Standard is all about.
Question; how many months/years have to pass without authoring a post before an "author" is no longer considered as such?
I agree, but who has author privileges is up to the trust.
How/whether we respond to misinformation in posts and comments is up to us, while we still can.
If we have the means to act, we have the responsibility to act. Nobody's perfect at it, but hey. We can all try, even if we think other people are dropping the ball..
"…..while we still can"
Not "we" brother, you're not allowed on his pages any more. It's not a ban though, you're just too good at debating so you can't play anymore 'cos you won't let him win.
As well as that we continually ask for citing and just as continually get ignored.
Opinions are good, but as many have said they're like a-holes and everybody has them but then an opinion with links or citations 'mwah mwah', love them. Weka in several posts above speaks good sense in her opinions with no need for citations.
I am just wondering 'are we there yet' as far as posts on Covid are concerned. Everything seems to have been said many times before. Would the sky fall in if we saw what would happen if we declared a moratorium for a week on posts about Covid.
If something new or groundbreaking happened in the Covid world during that week we could 'petition' a mod to open up a thread.
I am aware of two individuals, each who lost a parent in England with Covid. They were elderly and frail and both were in rest homes. Yet the death certificates claimed their deaths were due to other causes. Both took place in 2020 when it became known the British Govt. was trying to hide the real Covid death toll. Since then, several Covid international experts have estimated that the real toll from Covid is at least double that of the official numbers.
No. I'm not going to go hunting for links because I have better things to do. There were many stories, some dating back to 2020, so anyone who claims they have never heard of them are obviously living under a rock somewhere.
Yes I had heard that and I think the mysterious ways death certs were being drawn up was one of the reasons for the WHO intervention as they needed to be able drag out consistent info world-wide to see trends worldwide. Tricky dicky ways of completing death certs would stymie this of course.
Is Liz Gunn writing a guest post here tomorrow? Maybe Brian Tamaki from the mount of Eden? How low will The Standard go?
Anybody can submit a Guest Post here but very few do. My guess is that if you want to write about your opinion on how low the standards have fallen on The Standard it will not be published. However, feel free to try 😉
I was replying to fender and your "guess" is incorrect.
In that case, I stand corrected and I’ll look forward to your Guest Post on TS on TS. I just hope it will have more substance than your “reply” @ 11.4 to fender and less of an attack on this site and its authors.
Mikeys back in the morning. But this is a disturbing story. When someone threatens Mikey because they have a poor grasp of the English language.. you know Aotearoa is letting the wrong people through our borders.
The first reason I would deport this chap is because he didn't know what a burner phone was.
The second reason is the chap is 60 and English is his second language. Of course he was discharged without conviction.