A word I have heard thrown around a lot of recent days in various forms, is "misogyny".
However, I am wondering if that word is being used accurately. Language and its meanings matter.
In respect to Jacinda, certainly very vile, and nasty things have been said of her by various groups. And I don't defend that. That stuff is totally unacceptable, and certainly not my style. However, the question I am asking is whether it is necessarily misogynistic.
Here are several definitions of the word "misogyny".
Mirriam-Webster: "hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women".
Dictionary.com. "1. hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, manifested in various forms such as physical intimidation and abuse, sexual harassment and rape, social shunning and ostracism, etc.:the underlying misogyny in slut-shaming;Historically witch hunts were an embodiment of the misogyny of the time.
ingrained and institutionalized prejudice against women; sexism."
So, based on those definitions, it seems that misogyny is referring to hatred, dislike or prejudice against women generally.
So, to me the comment: "Woman, get back in the kitchen" would be highly misogynistic because the speaker is implying that women should be confined to domestic tasks to serve men. And, we can all think of male dominated groups that treat women as second-class citizens, and so would definitely meet the definitions above.
But, I would argue that vile, nasty comments about a specific woman are not necessarily misogynistic according to the definitions above. In fact, it may even be possible to make criminal comments (eg threatening to kill a specific woman) without those comments being misogynistic by definition.
I think a lot of hatred against Jacinda is from anti-vaxxers who may have lost their jobs or that they have felt like second-class citizens and, rightly or wrongly, see Jacinda responsible for that. Likely because she was fronting a lot of this stuff.
So, in those cases, the anger against Jacinda would not have been because she is a woman. But because they think she is responsible for the suffering in their lives. And, they would likely be equally angry against a male leader for the same reasons.
I certainly think these sort of people are likely misguided, because it was a very difficult situation to manage, and it wasn't only Jacinda responsible for the decisions.
But according to the definitions of "misogyny", is the word being used accurately?
Misogyny against left wing women for sure. Helen Clark and گلریز قهرمان (GG) and Nanaia Mahuta (and Kiri Allan if/when leader) here Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi, AOC, RT, and Ilhan Omar in Congress.
Any women in the way of the selfishness of white middle class partriarchy capitalism – it’s as if such women were in rebellion against their God and mammon brotherhood cult (an American led broederbond as it were).
While I'll accept women in politics get a level of hate and scrutiny and criticism men don't get and the attacks and conspiracies on Helen Clark,Julia Gillard and Jacindas personal lives are disgusting.
However the idea that Hillary Clinton and Pelosi stood in the way of capitalism? 😂😂
Hillary Clinton is as corporate neoliberal as it gets and while running against Obama in 08 her campaign team resorted to despicable race baiting and islamiphobic accusations about Obama's religion.
While noone deserves the level of conspiratorial hatred she got, 50% of the criticism HRC gets like her pro corporate votes in the Senate, ie her support of banking deregulation, her extreme closeness with wall street is legitimate and too often gets dismissed.
And Nancy Pelosi is an unreconstructed corporate neoliberal who defended tooth and nail that members of Congress like herself should be able to use insider info to trade in shares of the very companies Congress were regulating.
Clinton and Pelosi would be way to the right of the Act party.
The personal attacks, the conspiracies, the poking around in politicians lives is disgusting, but too often legitimate criticis of policies and actions gets called misogynistic which dilutes the term.
One thing that was always weird was the pearl clutching the left had over the nickname Cindy being misogynistic as if all prime ministers don't get infantilized nicknames like shonkey , the smiling assassin, Jonny boy, piggy, double dipping dipstick from dipton, Winnie, chippie, aunty Helen, Pullya benefits, Soimon, angry Andy, big norm, Scomo, Kevo, albo, Maggie, Tone, Bliar, Gordo, jezza, Keith, bojo, Slick willy, Jack, dubya, tricky dick etc etc etc Cindy was just another one of those and the freakouts were ridiculous.
We should stop attacking politicians personal lives and focus on their policies and we need to stop expecting politicians to be perfect angels and have no past because the toxicity discourages regular people from standing for office and we'll end up with unrelatable robots with little life experience because they've never messed up or lived a real life.
One thing that was always weird was the pearl clutching the left had over the nickname Cindy being misogynistic as if all prime ministers don't get infantilized nicknames like shonkey , the smiling assassin, Jonny boy, piggy, double dipping dipstick from dipton, Winnie, chippie, aunty Helen, Pullya benefits, Soimon, angry Andy, big norm, Scomo, Kevo, albo, Maggie, Tone, Bliar, Gordo, jezza, Keith, bojo, Slick willy, Jack, dubya, tricky dick etc etc etc Cindy was just another one of those and the freakouts were ridiculous.
Here's the difference. Women get called infantilising names by men in situations where it impacts beyond name calling. eg men do it to put women in their place and it works to an extent because of the constant background sexism and because system sexism means that men are often in positions of power to back that up. So if a woman says 'don't call me that', and then insists on it, the man can not promote her or whatever.
Calling JA Cindy has a different meaning and purpose than calling JK Shonkey. The sexism is built in.
Personally – I think that all of them are equally vile.
Just to be clear, in your respectful centrist mind, "Pullya Benefit", and the 'parallel' slurs ("Jabcinda, Taxcinda and Vaxcinda") you introduced in this thread, are "equally vile"? Looks like three-on-one to me.
How about "Paula Bennett" @1.1.1.1.1 versus "Jacinda's policies" @9:32 am – still 'parallel'; equal treatment?
Ardern endured ‘unprecedented’ level of abuse [20 January 2023]
“In this era of social media, clickbait and 24/7 media cycles, Jacinda has faced a level of hatred and vitriol which in my experience is unprecedented in our country,” the former prime minister Helen Clark said.
Perhaps reflect on your choice in this thread to write “Jacinda’s policies“, and use the full name of former deputy PM, Paula “Zip it, sweetie” Bennett.
Maybe the left and the right have contributed equally to this trend – maybe the ‘contributions’ of the major political camps “are equally vile. Even some centrists might be getting in on the Act.
The point was made earlier on TS – that the volume of abuse that women politicians receive is increasing. I don't think it's helpful to distinguish between specifically sexist abuse, and politicised (and very deliberately designed to be hurtful) nicknames.
They are all unacceptable.
These are not 'friendly' jokes – they are used exclusively by the 'other side' to belittle and ridicule. (Which is why you don't see any of the 'nasty' names used for Ardern on TS).
And, to be fair – I don't really see why, if it's unacceptable to do this to women, it should be acceptable to do it to men.
[The only current exception, I can think of, is "Chippy" – which is used by right and left – although Hipkins has reportedly said that he doesn't care for it as a nickname – and therefore I wouldn't use it]
Agree with this. Now I know Chris Hipkins does not like Chippie I won't ever say or write it again.
I have been aware for many years of the so-called 'friendly' jokes since the 1970s. At that time I was had on about not having a sense of humour for not thinking they were funny. When I came back to PS in the early 2000s I was appalled at the sexism, jokes and lack of knowledge about the 'isms' that many of us had been fighting for previously. It was as if things had slipped back, needed to be constantly reinforced.
Call me old fashioned but I think the media should be guided by the actual person on how they what they want to be called.
Only got Ministerial office experience in this. Some Ministers liked to be called Minister Blue when talking about anything to do with any of their portfolios, others liked to be Joanne Blue Minister of Unicorns. or Popcorn or whatever The press releases ALWAYS have the preferred form of address.
Some news media were pretty much toerags and just called them Joanne Blue or Blue and you had to read through a bit to see what was what. Deliberate nasty policy and NZ Herald was one of the instigators of this, what a surprise that will be.
I don't like Christian names, variations of Christian names when we talk of people in their official capacities. Another bit of old fashioned thought.
I find it helps to focus on the office and not get tied up with the person who is holding that office. When I was out and about more pre Covid I could adopt a slightly puzzled air when someone said 'Jacinda this' or 'that' & say 'oh you mean the Prime Minister'
Jabcinda and Vaxcinda are variations on the same theme, that being the views of disturbed anti-vaxxers, so we'll put that aside.
Taxcinda is less outrageous but what did Jacinda Ardern actually do? The top tax rate moved to 39% for incomes over $180,000. You could say the extension of the bright line test might be considered 'more tax' but only one realised if you like flipping the houses in your vast property portfolio.
So the people using Taxcinda are conservatives punching down.
Pullya Benefit is a term used by lefties to punch up because she literally took benefits away from solo mothers.
She oversaw a crackdown on welfare, including requirements for single mothers to return to work or face sanctions, and sanctions for those who don't meet drug and alcohol work test requirements.
The National-led Government announced a major package of welfare reforms in 2010 aimed at solo parents, who it said should go back to work.
Bennett said that for some beneficiaries "the dream is over".
Whatever you are MB, rw/LW pick or purple, I do not agree there is any justification for either Taxcinda or Pullya. They are just not funny or clever and remind me of naughty wee boys showing Dad's penthouses behind the bike shed.
Are there recent male names like this that spring to mind or are these female only 'jokes' or witticisms?
NB I've never heard of many of these nicknames from Corey. Some like Big Norm were always said with affection, even Piggy possibly.
One thing that was always weird was the pearl clutching the left had over the nickname Cindy being misogynistic as if all prime ministers don't get infantilized nicknames like shonkey , the smiling assassin, Jonny boy, piggy, double dipping dipstick from dipton, Winnie, chippie, aunty Helen, Pullya benefits, Soimon, angry Andy, big norm, Scomo, Kevo, albo, Maggie, Tone, Bliar, Gordo, jezza, Keith, bojo, Slick willy, Jack, dubya, tricky dick etc etc etc Cindy was just another one of those and the freakouts were ridiculous.
"Are there recent male names like this that spring to mind or are these female only 'jokes' or witticisms? "
There are male equivalents, directed at Luxon and Seymour – mostly around appearance, rather than personal names – appearing on TS from the usual suspects (almost certainly males, who think this kind of juvenile locker-room humour is funny)
As a card-carrying left-winger, I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference. Abuse is abuse. Except when the left do it, then it's justified /sarc/
but too often legitimate criticis of policies and actions gets called misogynistic which dilutes the term.
Too often … when have legitimate criticisms of policies been called misogynistic?
Clinton might be seen as centre-right here, but support for Obama Care and opposition to GOP cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is seen as part of their centre-left.
There are a couple of simple ways to see if the abuse being heaped a person is personal or not
1 to replace any words denoting gender from female to male
2 to replace any personal names with the with rank or position or with first names of the other gender.. Then to be specific about these positions perhaps replace Cindy, with Prime Minister then with the Government. (She represents the Govt – she did not do all these things by herself.)
so 'I hate Cindy, replace with Prime Minister replace with Government. or if you want to be really specific 'the Govt of NZ'
I don't think it works as a insult when you do this. the insult relies on the use of the first name or versions of it (ie infantilising it to Cindy, or not using a preferred name. Obviously the insulters are not going to do this as they want it to be read as an insult.
My family name is one that is subject to constant misspelling. Aside from responding in ways appropriate to the occasion we were always told a person's name is a person's identity, their existence, the fact they exist in the world. By misspelling, etc you remove an identity. Those flinging insults along these lines have picked up on this instinctively or more than likely deliberately
You mention those who may have lost their jobs. You omit the point about choice.
They chose to place themselves in a position where they lost their jobs. The conscientious objectors and those demonstrating in the Springbok tour, the 1951 strike were well aware of this. It was part of them that those at the time admired. They knew they faced opprobrium and the consequences.
By contrast many of those antis who may have lost their jobs feel hurt and hard done by the fact that sanctions happened…..almost as though they had not thought through their actions and looked at, and accepted, the consequences.
Christopher Luxon has had an easy run in comparison. He stated early on that his name was Christopher Luxon or rank/title and this is the name/rank/title he is given. Jacinda Ardern similar.
However in large part due to insult, her name has been shortened to Jacinda, Cindy. often leaving off the surname and the rank. This is often used by news media and it is debatable if it is used to denigrate, I believe it is.
So if you call it misogyny, insult, teasing, the end purpose is the same and that is to lower the person in the eyes of others. This is hugely powerful when that person is in a position of power as it goes not only to the person but the positon as well.
There are a couple of simple ways to see if the abuse being heaped a person is personal or not
1 to replace any words denoting gender from female to male
2 to replace any personal names with the with rank or position or with first names of the other gender.. Then to be specific about these positions perhaps replace Cindy, with Prime Minister then with the Government. (She represents the Govt – she did not do all these things by herself.)
That is actually a really enlightening and interesting tool. Thanks! Amazing what it shows actually.
Hurt people hurt people and when they do, they often use voodoo doll methods. When lashing out at and targeting a person they make it as specific as possible by personalising the attack. The more personalised the attack, the more effective it feels to the attacker – they feel they are hitting the intended target – and the more hurtful it feels to the attacked – it cuts closer to the bone. It is symbolic but symbolism is hugely important and powerful, as are metaphors.
Anger and hatred are such strong emotions that peel away layers of pretence and scratch off the veneer of civilisation. This may uncover hidden & latent sexism and misogyny, or other prejudices, which are normally only surface in casual ways. One’s angry and hateful outbursts are limited by the available vocabulary and idiom – tell us what you really think. I don’t think there’s such a thing as a ‘rational PC outburst’.
I don’t think there’s such a thing as a ‘rational PC outburst’.
I am the wrong one to comment possibly. Using words like 'hate' indiscriminately was pounced on in our family, teasing about personal characteristics ditto, the importance of addressing people by their correct name or title and spelling ditto. My nieces ditto by their mother.
Having only ever heard my father say 'you silly sausage' and 'damn' when he hit himself on the finger when hammering I never heard words like Fcuk and C**t uttered. My husband could string together a good range of epithets, being Navy, but never at me, but I doubt he would ever have written them down, well I know he wouldn't have. My current partner is a bit like my father with silly sausage and damn even when skippering a two person yacht going round Cape Jackson, when epithets are more or less excused in tight situations no matter who the company.
My dad was in the war and no doubt heard bad language, may even have said it himself. He and my partner would be able to speak and write rationally even in extremis or have the ability to move away/retire if the situation was getting heated. My dad had a boxing blue.
He couldn't prevent me from going on marches but he did say 'look right, look left' and 'if you don't like what you see there, leave'. And I have a couple of times where it looked as though we were being accompanied by hangers-on there for the possible stoush. This simple maxim would have prevented the so-called (I have my doubts) ordinary folk from being part of the occupation at Parliament in the company of alt rightists, Nazis etc.
Bad language is a habit. It is not ingrained it is not innate.
This might sound prissy but there are families that don't swear and carry on.
There are also commentators on TS who are careful to refer to politicians by name – and others who feel free to use deliberately-intended to be insulting nicknames.
On another matter……I am utterly appalled at the ignorance of Christopher Luxon on the matter of insults to woman in power. He really has lead a very sheltered life. Did he not have an inkling of this when in his much vaunted 'running a company' positions?
Where was he at the time of the hounding of Aus PM Julia Gillard? Did he not see her powerful speech
I can't help thinking that this ignorance is in large part reinforced by the patriarchal church he belongs to.
While other churches and their leaders may stand up in the pulpit and draw attention to many unfair aspects of modern day life …..what is happening in his life/church? Russell Marshall was called the Red Reverend.
This is the most worrying comment in that article:
"Studies have found that anti-women attitudes [link to a Monash international study of misogenistic behaviour] are the biggest predictors of attitudes of violent extremism, and this is true for far-right groups as well. Research from Swinburne University [extensive report on politicised misogeny in Victoria, Australia] has shown that far-right sentiments were most often coupled with anti-feminist and anti-women statements, in comparison to anti-left sentiment or racist sentiments."
And some completely woo-woo opinion from me, that misogenistic people probably have poor relationships with their mums, or grew up in families with abusive parents (of either sex). The hatred that spews forth seems to come from a deep subconcious well. It is far in excess of that generated by the visible target.
And I remember despising Piggy Muldoon for his authoritarian actions and his pleasure in ripping opponents down with personal attacks. But I never wished him dead, only dribbling into the obscurity into which he eventually sunk.
Good discussion about misogyny and its implications.
I think a lot of the problems faced by female politicians is that there remains the underlying, but usually not publicly expressed, expectation that males are dominant, females submissive and when a female politician is successful and powerful many males feel threatened because this is reversal of "the natural order of things".
Julia Gillard, Helen Clark, France's Sigourney Royale, Margaret Thatcher, Finland's Sanna Marin – only a few successful female politicians that have suffered abuse because they represented a challenge to the male ego – they were better than the male politicians that they replaced.
Male politicians never get asked about their reproductive wishes or history, male politicians seldom are questioned about what clothes they wear or how they can reconcile their gender with making decisions that can detrimentally affect their people. Female politicians always have more things they are expected to justify.
But why left female politicians seem to get it so much worse is an interesting question. My answer is that the political right are generally much nastier and less inhibited to display their nastiness, but perhaps that is an over simplification.
So, in those cases, the anger against Jacinda would not have been because she is a woman. But because they think she is responsible for the suffering in their lives. And, they would likely be equally angry against a male leader for the same reasons.
for some, sure. But it's how they express that that changes between a male and female PM.
I notice that you didn't provide examples of the speech or abuse that you think is not sexist. If you give three examples and their context, then we can see if your theory is correct.
Statements like "she's just a pretty communist", remarks referring to her teeth, "ding dong the witch is gone"the prevalence of the "C" word referring to Ardern on social media.
I have never known such hatred and frightening vitriol against any other leader, and I do think misogyny is rising, particularly against any woman who raises her head above the parapet.We live in a climate when even the existence of women as a distinct sex based class is under threat.
I agree with those particular comments as being misogynistic. And I am not trying to say none of it is misogynistic. But that it is easy to conflate nasty vile statements with misogynistic ones.
For me, comments that reflect hatred or dislike of Jacinda because of her gender are clearly misogynistic. However, comments that are based on dislike because of things people perceive she is responsible for, probably are not.
I agree that there certainly is a nasty side of society showing itself at the moment. I think a lot of that has been due to too much pandering of groups that subjugate women.
I am very happy to see the court action against Gloriavale leadership at the moment, who are misogynistic in the extreme. I think that is long overdue. We shouldn't be tolerating groups treating women in that way due to the message it sends to society generally.
It's often hard to draw a specific line, between general abusive comments and misogyny.
There seems to be no doubt, that women politicians (and women in the public arena in general) 'attract' more abusive comments – both in quantity and vileness – than their male counterparts.
In itself, that can be a form of misogyny. And, the volume of abuse has a logarithmic multiplying factor (it's much easier to dismiss 2 comments as being random nutters who don't share the same planet as the rest of us, but 2,000 are much more worrying)
The type of abuse is also worrying, as is the (apparent) ineffectiveness of our policing/courts over direct and specific threats. They seem to be being treated as keyboard warriors who won't take action – but a publicly-made threat to kill or commit some other offence, should be treated very seriously. And a court process operating months after the threat was made, is an absolutely ineffective deterrent.
However, commentators (including those on TS) should look at the log in their own eye first. How many abusive comments are directed at politicians rather than at their policies? How many nasty and dismissive nicknames are used for the politicians we consider to be the 'enemy' and/or the commentators who disagree with us? And, if we do (or condone) this, how can we then complain if bile is then directed against the politicians we support?
There seems to be no doubt, that women politicians (and women in the public arena in general) 'attract' more abusive comments – both in quantity and vileness – than their male counterparts.
For me, comments that reflect hatred or dislike of Jacinda because of her gender are clearly misogynistic. However, comments that are based on dislike because of things people perceive she is responsible for, probably are not.
Just a simple yes/no question for you, tsmithfield: In your comments here, have you ever referred to the current leader of the opposition as "Christopher" or "Chris", i.e. sans surname? You know, in the same way that you've referred to our current Prime Minister as "Jacinda" four times in your comment @1, and nine times in your comment @7.
I agree that just using a first name for women politicians can be sexist – but the analysis isn't quite as straightforward as that.
There are elements of 'convenient shorthand' – picking the most unique name – while that wouldn't affect Jacinda Ardern – only one Jacinda, only one Ardern currently in NZ politics) – it does affect politicians like Winston Peters (widely known as 'Winston' – since there are lots of 'Peters' around. And, obviously affects Luxon – plenty of other politicians called 'Chris' including Hipkins – so a real route to confusion.
Politicians can also embrace the 'first name' option- as a way of enhancing their 'relatability' to the public (Winston Peters has certainly done this, and I think also Boris Johnson & arguably Jacinda Ardern).
I think you’ll find that plenty of very left commentators on TS, have referred to Ardern as ‘Jacinda’
I think you’ll find that plenty of very left commentators on TS, have referred to Ardern as ‘Jacinda’
Prefer and try not to – comes down to whether the intent is to belittle, imho, with context a deciding factor. Might be a subconscious ‘tell’ in some cases.
I'll happily refer to Luxon as 'Luxfusion' – cLux cLux cLux
My preference is to refer to most politicians by their surname – though I will admit that I've not always been 100% successful. And probably have been least so with Winston Peters – how much of that is subtle denigration, and how much use of the most clearly identifying name – is open to interpretation.
I do, however, refuse to use derogatory nicknames – and think less of those who do.
I do, however, refuse to use derogatory nicknames – and think less of those who do.
Whereas I may choose to use derogatory nicknames and descriptors that I personally find apt. Piggy Muldoon springs to mind.
Presumably you wouldn't have much time for the motley crew who thought up and use "Jabcinda, Taxcinda and Vaxcinda" – even mentioning these three might raise the odd eyebrow.
Nope don't use them. Yes I have seen them (as a centrist, I keep informed of all sides of the political debate – rather than remaining cocooned in an left-wing echo chamber). Just as I've seen the TS equivalents for right wing politicians.
I have no patience for any of it, from any side of the political spectrum.
Choosing to use derogatory nicknames says more about you, and the quality of your discourse, than it does about the subjects.
In addition, any political point you may wish to make, will be immediately discounted (except, of course, by your fellow travellers), as you've announced your intention to demean rather than debate up front.
And, surprise, surprise, it's not your fellow travellers that you have to convince.
Should I have? It's the first time you've raised the issue.
As someone who clearly finds any verbal abuse of politicians unacceptable – I very clearly find it even more unacceptable to have abuse (let alone threats) directed at politicians families.
Tell me – did you approve of the song explicitly talking about raping Stephie Key – put out by your friends on the left?
I've made my position clear. Abuse and threats are not acceptable from any side of the political spectrum. Yours still seems to be 'it's OK if the left do it'
Not one word about Neve or the rest of Ardern's family in that article.
But plenty about the attacks that (predominantly) men make against women politicians. That includes you, Muttonbird.
You are part of the problem, here; not part of the solution.
[Stepping into to stop this escalating (including at a later date). Take a day off to cool down. Back on Weds morning. I know it can be hqrd, but please don’t stoop to the personalised comments having a go at a commenter. – weka]
Yawn. There's only one person here apologising for attacks on politicians and their families.
It ain't me.
[Stepping into to stop this escalating (including at a later date). Take a day off to cool down. Back on Weds morning. We are increasingly intolerant of personal attacks going into election year, and you’ve been told this many times already. Don’t be surprised if you find yourself with a long ban at some point – weka]
Good point Muttonbird. Belladonna's urgent universal condemnation of verbal abuse of politicians might be genuine, but that particular respectful centrist seems unable to discern either quantitative or qualitative differences in the political abuse emanating from current supporters of right versus left political ideologies.
Instead of facts, they clutch at whataboutism anecdotes. It's as if their very 'centrism' conveniently blinds them to obvious differences, and I can’t help wondering why that might be.
% of female MPs by party: Grn 70%, Lab 58%, MP 50%, NAct 34%
An obvious political left-to-right trend (apologies for any errors).
'Relentless' abuse against women MPs on the rise
[March 2022]
A rising tide of “deeply sexist” abuse and threats against women MPs is part of a concerted effort to push them out of public office, an expert says.
“Relentless“!
The hatred and vitriol Jacinda Ardern endured 'would affect anybody' [20 January 2023] But in the last two years the misogyny and violence directed towards Ardern has not only increased in volume, but also become more dangerous, says Hannah, who studies online hate speech and disinformation.
Choosing to use derogatory nicknames says more about you, and the quality of your discourse, than it does about the subjects.
Won't comment further on the 'quality' of your discourse in this "left-wing echo chamber". As a proud centrist, you'll no doubt have levelled critiques of 'echo chamber' discourse in right-whinge blogs – carry on.
In addition, any political point you may wish to make, will be immediately discounted (except, of course, by your fellow travellers)…
…it's not your fellow travellers that you have to convince.
It's unsurprising and unimportant that you will immediately discount any political points I make. I don't have to convince anyone – do you?
As a centrist, if you (not you personally, but the left in general) want me to vote for you – then yes, you do have to convince me.
People who construct intelligent, informative arguments (as you in general do) are much more likely to achieve this goal. People who resort to juvenile abuse of opponents, much less so.
Otherwise, I'll leave you to your happy little echo chamber….
I may be completely wrong but I believe many of these creeps feel they have been given a licence to show their rude, crude, misogynistic, obnoxious selves by copying the behaviour of that vile orange guy from the U.S.A.
That wouldn't explain the same behaviour from before that creep became influential, but I certainly think much of todays degenerate attitudes have resurfaced because they no longer have any sense of shame in showing their true selves. They're just copying his example.
You are completely right. They haven't the brains for rational thinking and that opens the way for the Trumps of this world to drag them down ever deepening rabbit holes.
They are plenty vocal elsewhere and many have no compunction at all about letting you know their insulting thoughts verbally. From the signs on the protests to the abuse shouted to every day discussions they are there. Suggesting they are just keyboard warriors is to severely minimise them and their behaviour. I hear this stuff pretty much daily.
Since the PM resigned it has been quite pleasant to be honest to not hear it / have to challenge it (past the initial chorus of claiming credit for her resignation the usual culprits in my life have gone silent).
Trying not to think the fix was in but it sure felt like stuff and others where trying to influence labour in the short window after Ardern stood down,
Russian photojournalist Dmitry Beliakov on Poots' war propaganda.
The state-run war-supporting outreach program bears all the hallmarks of a Soviet method. Mobilization cures drug addiction and alcoholism: either get high, or go and fight for the Fatherland. Solve your apartment issue: become a soldier and leave behind those annoying relatives or neighbors in the communal flat. Volunteer now! Look after yourself and your family through benefits from the State, free medical treatment for yourself and family, veteran combat status – in short, the respect of the surrounding tribes!
Russians are bombarded with propaganda from all sides, brow-beaten into supporting the war. Churches pray for Russian troops fighting the world evil. In schools, children are asked to write letters to hero-soldiers who protect Russia from NATO. State enterprises hold patriotic rallies and organize voluntary fundraising for the operation on denazification of the Ukraine. Federal TV channels are full of propaganda hits performed by Russian pop stars of varying calibers. Commercials by private military companies fighting in Ukraine stream solicitations to apply; others to sign a contract with the Russian army.
Clumsy agitation videos are shot with third-rate actors shared with the most mediocre social advertising (respect your elders, wash your hands before eating, get the flu vaccine now!), or play in provincial theatres. Scripts are banal, though sometimes unbelievable. For example:
A married woman looks with lust at a stranger who has signed a contract with the Conscription Office, and exclaims with envy in her eyes: “Well, you cut the mustard in military service! You’re the real deal, not like my klutz at home.”
A father, a veteran of the Chechen conflict, returns home from the war in Ukraine, and hands his happy daughter a new iPhone.
A grandson, having served under Army contract in Ukraine, rescues his poor grandfather, who dreamed of buying real beef sausages in the supermarket, for which it would be necessary to sell the much beloved dilapidated family car, a Russian Lada. But the miserable abomination of the Soviet car industry is saved by Army benefits! Grandfather looks with pride at his patriotic grandson.
[…]
At the very end of the music video you can see a fragment of one of the most sinister appeals of Russia president, specially integrated into the clip, where shining with anger Putin threatens a nuclear strike in order to save Russia from the aggressors and at the same time admits that it would be a catastrophe for all mankind, for the whole world, but immediately resorts to a clumsy argument, saying that why a world without Russia is needed?
Things must be bad for Putin, yet the ridiculous limericks written by his butt-injured lackey are not as vulgar as the daily killing of Ukrainian civilians.
Every critic of the Putin regime is attacked by you.
It seems that Tucker Carlson (and no doubt a few other far right propagandists) are to be spared from Putin's nuclear genocide.
…..“First of all, our main enemy is certainly the United States. What does the U.S. react to? They react to two things: the threat of physical annihilation….
….Not one pundit in the studio argued against Satanovsky’s macabre proposal. Drobnitsky had only one exception: “In our country, we embraced one American we wouldn’t want to kill: that would be Tucker Carlson.”
Maybe you too Francesca, will be 'embraced' as one of the far right propagandists promised to be spared from Russia's threatened global holocaust
[Although Francesca’s comment @ 5.1.1.1 was pretty petty poor yours added nothing but a personal attack on another commenter, yet again. Last time (https://thestandard.org.nz/chinese-capital-in-the-pacific/#comment-1901165) it was one week and you were warned it would be doubled at the next time you were doing this. Take 2 weeks off and next one will be doubled again or even longer since it is Election Year – Incognito]
Banning you or others for personal attacks on other commenters is just that. Making it into something it is not such as “defending this [alleged] pro-war commentator” is first-order stupidity and complete denial of your own actions. This is where you and other zealots invariably go wrong here on TS – you never learn, you never adjust, you never improve, and you should be able to figure out why Mods respond in the same way, inevitably.
I have to agree with Francesca, that piece of writing IS propaganda, designed to sway emotion primarily, rather than set out lots of facts. The well-designed campaign from Ukraine to maintain outside support for their struggle (which I think as a good thing, by the way) is propaganda too (child refugees, valiant soldiers at the front). The definition of propaganda is an element of one-sidedness to the information presented to shore up a cause, and we should be clear-eyed about spin, wherever it comes from.
Where propaganda becomes dangerous and immoral is when it demonises opponents and spreads lies. The article Joe90 posts is a bit heavy-handed, but doesn't quite cross that line.
Francesca didn’t say that the article was propaganda – she may have implied it by but not in her comment per se – she said the writer was an able propagandist. But unlike Francesca you actually commented on the actual article rather than on only the writer of it.
Further to my comments above, I think it is interesting to understand why Jacinda went from being almost universally loved to being seen as divisive and truly hated by many.
My comments below may be interpreted as victim-blaming. But that is not my intention. There is no justification for the sort of vitriol hurled at Jacinda. But it is interesting to see how this has arisen. It didn't just come out of a vacuum.
I think there is an extent to which Jacinda went away from being seen as compassionate and loving, as seen with the mosque shootings, or the "be kind" message, to being intentionally divisive herself. For instance, Jacinda, apparently quite coldly, and confidently, tells an interviewer that the aim is to set up a two-tier society.
Intervierwer: So you've basically said, you probably don't see it like this, but two different classes of people. If you're vaccinated or unvaccinated….
Jacinda: That is what it is…..
Now, there is a clear greater good argument here. I think the vaccination rate was higher due to the government approach. And I know people in my own business who reluctantly got vaccinated because they wanted to keep their jobs. So, I think the effect has been to save lives. So, I think what the government did was probably the right thing.
But, looking at Jacinda's comments in this video from the perspective of someone who just lost their job due to their own personal choice about their own body, I can imagine they would feel really angry if they thought that Jacinda was deliberately and callously setting up conditions that would destroy their lives.
So, it seems to me that Jacinda may have gone off message to some extent, and this may have fueled the anger in the side of society who may have been directly or indirectly affected by the government decisions. And the comments below the video certainly suggest that.
This apparent contradiction may have led some to believe that Jacinda was wearing her compassionate side as a mask, and that underneath she was cold and calculating.
I certainly don't see it that way. I think there was an incredibly hard job for the government to do, and maintaining an even-handed approach was incredibly difficult. But, some sectors of society definitely did not see it that way.
Again you leave of the point about choice. It weakens your argument to a nullity really.
There was no force.
In agreeing that society may be vaccinated and unvaccinated the PM was stating a fact.
Again, I believe that Labour has/had misread the intellectual capacity of the electorate. They have thought that the electorate was wiser than it turned out to be. Again I mention the standard Comms canon about pitching to an 11 year audience.
Again I mention the conscientious objectors and those in the 1951 strike.
They knew the consequences of their actions, some were so anti war that they knew they would go to camps or be drafted as stretcher bearer etc. In 1951 the strikers knew what was happening and what would happen to them. They had a choice and exercised it. They were proud of the choices they made and accepted the consequences.
I am sure there were many who had serious grounds not to accept vaccinations and had been refusing vaccinations their whole lives. People with serious grounds are not the ones believing in trackers, magnets, big brother.
The ones who had the best of intentions and knowledge about Covid 19 but did not want the vaccine are the ones who abided by the other aspects such as masking and distancing.
Of course Labour misread the intellectual capacity of the electorate. The lunacy around so much of vaccinations and the whole coronavirus thing showed that. And the sad spectacle of the Brian Tāmaki mob.
The ironic thing is that online forums have the tripe which shows the same impaired individuals going crook about educational standards and telling us how schooling should be done.
To make it clear, I think the anti-vax movement that I think has largely been responsible for the crazy stuff, including the really nasty comments sent to Jacinda is batshit crazy.
I have no tolerance for there sort of conspiratorial nonsense. But, I think they would feed off the sort of video I pointed to as a justification for their hatred.
But there is actually no justification for hatred especially when you personify the actions of a Govt elected to govern it to one person.
This sort of feely stuff when there is no justification needs to be dealt with. I know some are not able to understand, who were overly influenced and we need to look at civics, choice, decision making, history to make sure it lessens the chance of it happening again.
Again, once/if the Police release the report on tracking the funding flows for occupation we will be given more idea of warning signals to look for in term of undue overseas influence etc.
TBH – I don't think that it has much to do with actual policies – but rather that she's associated very strongly in people's minds with a 'disaster' (Covid, the lockdowns and the quarantine system) that people want to forget.
While the anti-vax movement despise her (for what they, no doubt, consider to be legitimate reasons), they're only a tiny minority of Kiwis – and it's a much larger group who have become anti-Ardern. Whether they are anti-Labour we'll wait to see.
The parallel has been made with Churchill – who went from the 'great leader' who saved Britain in WW2, to being turfed unceremoniously out of power at the next general election.
That's not to say that many of the policies which have been floated and enacted over the last couple of years haven't been divisive (because they have). And, while I believe that more could have been done to bring NZ with the Labour government in making the changes; making significant change is almost always going to incur divisiveness, and (I believe) Ardern and her government were keenly aware that they had a narrowing window of opportunity before 2023 – when their guaranteed majority was going to evaporate [even if the left wins in October, there is no way the Labour party will have a majority].
Do you have an alternative explanation for the rapid switch in popularity?
Covid is, and remains, one of the biggest global disasters of my lifetime.
Ardern did much to mitigate this in NZ. However, she remains strongly associated with the negative impacts (and be honest, lockdown was a serious negative impact) on Kiwis.
I do have an explanation. Generational progressive policy on Maori involvement in decision making on water. And generational progressive policy on how NZ Ag pays their way and stops polluting this jewel of a country.
In my opinion you slyly attempted to convince this forum that Jacinda Ardern is 'associated with disaster'.
Reality is in the eyes of almost everyone who is paying attention, globally and locally, she's associated with unprecedented compassionate response to disaster.
I don't see how your explanation results in dropping popularity for Ardern.
If your examples above are true – then Labour under Hipkins has no show of winning in October, unless he ditches both policies.
If Ardern had dropping popularity because of this – then Hipkins must as well.
I think that you must not be very familiar with opinions on the 'other side' of the political divide – because Ardern is very much not associated with compassionate response to Covid, for them.
I'm not saying either side is right. I am saying there is a big difference in perception.
I will not bother with responding to your introduction of Chris Hipkins into the argument done seemingly to deflect from your initial outrageous claim.
Your fellow traveller Tinder has attempted something similar vis a vis Labour’s inaction on tax brackets.
You do realize that centrist and right wing people vote too….
And that they have opinions – even though not ones sanctioned by you.
If you refuse to take the perspectives of the 'other side' into account, you will perpetually be surprised when things don't go the way you believe they should.
The rapid switch in popularity, in my view, is because parts of the electorate got tired of a woman being PM, or in charge, or seeing a woman in charge. They saw her every day for a while and had plenty of time to get riled up at the 'unnatural order' so called, of things. That she was personable and genuine and popular because of these characteristics would have made them angrier. "the world should not be ruled by fluffy and caring'
I keep saying about my experience seeing all those 40s-50s men driving their utes/wagons down to the protest and saw some of their signs. But before that they saw the PM being logical, her Cabinet members being logical and also caring and thought, this is just so much B-S.
She lost popularity because she was a women and she was unable to hide anywhere as normal people (like us) expected her to lead.
Others can say it was this or that but using my age old trick of imagining a male being in charge instead of Jacinda Ardern this would not have lead to the vituperative anti male, derisory comments. I don't think we would have seen maddened people running after a male PM if he had visited a school.
The orange man inspired anti vaxx movement was far reaching, was glib and found fellowship in several countries such as Canada & NZ to play havoc in. He personally had an astoundingly bad attitude towards women and that would have been a reinforcement for bad attitudes here. .
Going from almost universally loved to being seen as divisive and truly hated by many…
I personally don't think she was almost universally loved, rather respected for her emotional openness and her refusal to shitmouth others. She knows how to communicate well and reach people with simple messaging. How that deteriorated..
Firstly, the choice to front up daily during the pandemic lockdowns meant a loss of novelty. An element of head girl exhorting us, yet again, to keep our uniforms tidy crept into our dynamics with her. We think of Winston Churchill as always spouting away to the British public during WW2, but in fact he only made 30 speeches in 5 years.
Secondly, going into lockdown 2 in Auckland, the government seemed to lose control of the narrative. Contrast the negative effect of this on the general perception of our government with that of Dan Andrews, Premier of Victoria.The Melbourne lockdowns were much worse than anyone experienced here. Yet Dan Andrews was swept back into power in recent state elections, despite that history.
I think in part this is because Ardern had become (by accident or design) an international figure, and was therefore targetted by right-wing media like Fox News. They pushed the idea of Dictatorship NZ, and, suckers as we are, many fell for the false mirror being held up to us. Not helped by those whinging about being shut out of NZ, despite being told to come home very clearly at the start of the pandemic. And not helped by government backtracks in response to individual cases, which made the whole quarantine system look poorly designed.
Thirdly, 3Waters legislation was a mistake, conflating Māori governance with a sensible water management policy that was already a hard sell, due to local body scepticism. It is true that this Labour government has acted strongly to lift the status of Māori in NZ, and we've come a long way in 2 and a bit years. Still, many feel they've been dragged rather than led. And the Labour Party did not educate the electorate about WHY, either before the election, or since. So Ardern and her government are seen widely (and perhaps fairly) as lacking transparency about this agenda.
Finally, mud sticks. Obama couldn't shake off birthist lies. Hilary Clinton eats babies. There's plenty of evidence that blatant lies like this repeated often enough just stick, and eventually are seen as true by some. For others, doubts about the probity of the target creep in. The Parliament anti-vax protest did huge harm to Ardern's image by parading their memes in front of the public day after day, and I think that was another nail in the coffin.
Nice to have the chance at the Standard to put me 2 cents in.
One week (since the initial announcement) was entirely unrealistic for Kiwis to return to NZ – especially as there were few flights, and pretty close to zero tickets available.
Absolutely – the flights stopped. We had British friends here who were booked to return to the UK in late March 2020. They got back on a repatriation flight in June.
I remember the PM saying clearly in her announcement of the lockdown words to the effect of 'come home now if you can', with the implication that a ready return may not be feasible in the future. Borders were held open for a short while afterwards for citizens. I remember repatriation flights organised up to 3 weeks afterwards.
Why are you upset entry to NZ was controlled? Seems sensible to me, with no good vaccine initially available. We evaded the chaotic, destructive rolling lockdowns in the UK, Europe and Aussie.
A few of the exiles' stories tugged my heartstrings – those caught with no money and no visas. However, many fighting for places in quarantine seemed to be tantrummy and entitled, frankly.
At least we let people leave NZ if they wanted, unlike Australia, who refused people the right to leave.
I've provided the link to the actual advice given by the Ministry – and Peters as the Minister concerned, at the time.
If you have an alternative source, please link. Recollections (3 years later) of what someone might have said, aren't always the most reliable.
And, the fact remains, that for most people caught overseas – there was no possibility of return within the very short timeframe before the borders closed – there were no additional flights – and tickets were completely over-subscribed.
I'm not upset that entry to NZ was controlled, I'm concerned over the (frequently repeated) lie that all Kiwis were told to return home (and, by implication, had the opportunity to returm home) at the beginning of the pandemic.
Imho, no Government is perfect (mistakes were made), nor can they work miracles. Still, as I recall, our Govt didn't do so badly, given the circumstances.
Your quotes from Ardern refer to Kiwis already inside NZ and/or those already in transit (or who would be in transit within the next few days).
It was not possible, and there was no possible mechanism, to get Kiwis who were overseas home before NZ went into lockdown on the 25th of March.
For those Kiwis, the official message (via Winston Peters and Foreign Affairs) was 'shelter in place'.
You, are of course, right – no government can work miracles. And it was physically impossible for all Kiwis who were overseas to return during that very short timeframe.
However, those people are (quite rightly) angry when they are subsequently told 'you had they chance to come home, and didn't take it'. They didn't have that opportunity.
I do think that there is a lot that we could learn about the whole MiQ process – what worked, what didn't, and how it could be improved if (God forbid) we actually had to do it again.
However, those people are (quite rightly) angry when they are subsequently told 'you had they chance to come home, and didn't take it'. They didn't have that opportunity.
The link @7.3.1 outlines the why they didn't have this opportunity.
Is there a link showing 'the government' subsequently saying "you had they chance to come home, and didn't take it."?
The Grounded Kiwis court case made the point that a significant proportion of "those people" (i.e. Kiwis who were effectively unable to return to their own country) were angry with the Government over the operations of MiQ.
Read the original comment for the context – and the very strong implication that 'you had the chance to come home and didn't take it'
Which original comment contains that very strong implication?
I replied to your comment @7.3.1, which was clearly focussed on "the beginning of the pandemic" and its impact on the ability of Kiwis to travel internationally at that time.
Your comments @7.3.1.2.1 ("Recollections (3 years later)…") and @11:19 am ("on the 25th of March [2020]") also clearly refer to events at the beginning of the pandemic.
"There is a significant popular undercurrent that some people had the temerity to leave NZ, and are coming back when the going is tough."
Only an unbiased respectful political centrist would then dredge up a quote from a Malpass critique of the MIQ regime published 18 months later (in Sept 2021) to support their original contention that someone/thing (our Government perhaps?) had “very strongly” implied “you had the chance to come home and didn’t take it.”
Perhaps some respectful political centrists are predisposed to believing that the left and right are as bad as each other. In my humble and biased opinion such a narrative serves the right well.
Why it might be so difficult to self-diagnose and/or acknowledge political bias is a real puzzle. I've never knowingly hidden my (fairly obvious) political bias here, lacking the inclination and necessary skills to do so, although The Standard is a good teacher.
Fair points, I apologise for my tone and assumptions, and stand corrected on fact.
Reading comments in the Guardian about Ardern's resignation, there's more than one kiwi/expat kiwi pushing the Fortress NZ 2 year tyrannical lockdown, worse than NKorea story.
Kiwis returning to NZ during the quarantine were wealthier or could access $$ for the flights. Those with less money simply had to stay where they were. I admit I had less patience with returnees' stories in the media due to that fact. The stories co-incided with a strong political push 'to open NZ, as it's throttling business, etc'. My sense of an element of whinge remains intact.
I would argue the mandates weren't a good thing, yes they increased the vaccination rate but they came at a heavy cost as it polarized a whole bunch of people both for and against. Basically long term damage to NZ societal fabric. That will take a very long time to heal possibly generational.
I don't believe that cost was worth the extra 5-10% it probably added to the vax rate.
I think you confuse these public health measures, ie. the mandates, with political decisions. A problem again introduced by the close personal involvement of the PM with public health messaging. I doubt the government would have followed a mandate path without extremely strong recommendation from the Director General of Health (Epidemic Preparedness Act 2006).
We saw in the UK how Boris Johnson's government repeatedly ignored Health Ministry and pandemic taskforce recommendations. Perhaps you would now be contributing sad tales of dead parents to the Pandemic Response Inquiry, instead of complaining about disruptions to those who chose to not be vaccinated, even though they knew well in advance they would lose their jobs.
It was divisive to introduce mandates, but 75% of people did support them. The division was inflamed by those making political capital and those fomenting outrage to get their social media numbers up.
Riffing on the mandates and thinking about the 75% support, this is pretty close to those who got vaccinated in response to the public health 'carrot'. The carrot campaign was extensive public health messaging that a 90-95% vaccination rate would keep hospital cases manageable and lower death rate, and it was run for months.
25% ignored the carrot, and the mandates became the 'stick' once community transmission appeared likely. I think the mistake was too much time lead-in time for mandates, so resistance had time to build and political agitators jumped in, including the international anti-vax movement.
Perhaps if the mandates had kicked in almost immediately for critical jobs, and the government had just coughed up 2 months' severance pay for the 'no jabbers'?
Other counties, for example Spain, ran very smooth vaccination campaigns with high compliance. On the other hand, they were watching people dying, a 'stick' you could not ignore.
For many employers, I imagine the mandates were a blessing. Who wants to run a business where everyone's getting Covid?
I agree with this summation of tWiggle rather than that of Cricklewood.
I think the so-called damage is overstated. The damage will be like the effects of the Springbok tour……you get yourself on the wrong side of history eventually, those supporting the Springboks, and those who were on the wrong side of history at the time, the marchers, but when it all washes over and time goes on it recedes.
Those of us who let it continue to be a feature of their lives need compassion to readjust and this can be hard just as it can be hard to readjust with any momentous/psyche threatening thing that happens to us. Separation /death/divorce/losing a job through restructuring are dealt with by some but others need a helping hand, counselling. But you come right or rather life piles on experiences that push those experiences back.
In the case of the occupation, I read somewhere that someone going there felt that there perhaps was a higher percentage of psychologically damaged people there.
The constant rehashing unless it is part of a conscious process of learning is hopeless. We will never learn from what happened, we will never be able to say dispassionately this was done then but now we have learned we will do it that way. Not to close the circle invalidates the experiences and keep them conscious and ticking over, brooding. This is no good for an individual and no good for the huge organism we call NZ.
That is why I made the point earlier on, Anne agreed, that we are overdue a report from the police on finding flows. We have excellent reports from the Disinformation project (ongoing) and from the Director of SIS on the threats but really need more information about these groups VFF, Destiny, the rt wingers on the grounds etc. The documentaries are excellent as well.
Just on the mandates some friends (nurses) did not actually mourn those who left pointing out that their actions had a possibility of affecting colleagues and patients alike. The younger nurses going through the Uni system have to have up to date vaccinations to start training and once trained to maintain them. There is a group where no such expectation/requirement exists. Other friends working in the PS were adamant they were working from home if non vaxxed were able to work.
Tsmith-Jacinda wasn't hated by "many". Where is the statistical support for this statement? She was still the most popular choice as PM when she resigned.
She was hated by loony VFF people because of her sensible and effective Covid policies. She was hated by hard right National and ACT voter's who couldn't stomach her policies, popularity and success.
The MSM, especially the Herald, should hang its head in shame for the way this was reported. The MSM was particularly culpable in its reporting of the highly effective border quarantine system. The tiny percentage of self-serving people who had problems (which was bound to happen) portrayed the system as a failure. This was all done to help big business who wanted the border open and bugger the deaths.
Loony tunes Antivaxxers disliked her with a passion and some Aucklanders who felt they were long past wanting to play their part in eliminating/moderating the risk when the infections were at their highest in Auckland.
It is more than obvious that for may of them, their marbles have long since rolled off to reside under the refrigerator.
On a local community page I follow, a chap spent most of yesterday insisting that Jacinda and Clarke were both crackheads, and that the entirety of the Police and the Judicial system were involved in a massive cover up on their behalf. No amount of evidence – Police statements, the ODT reporting of the court case that Clarke won etc was going to shift him.
When presented with any kind of dissenting view – his response was abuse and threats of violence.
Listened to the video. Hipkins said we would 'chase up' those who have not been vaccinated. I don't think that the presumably American commenters understand the Kiwi usage of 'chase up', meaning 'to get in contact with a second or more time".
'Choice' in many ways, from the vernacular meaning of approval to meaning options, to meaning things like voting, which many of the commenters seemed to think we did not have, living as they think Kiwis do in a brainwashed autocracy where freedom of choice had to be defended by guns.
Do these folk not believe we are to have a free election here in October?
Do these folk not believe we are to have a free election here in October?
Initially, I thought this was entirely rhetorical, but then I realised that some (??) Kiwis have started to believe what others believe and the views those others express online, be they real people and/or bots, who have never lived or even been to NZ. And by linking & liking, and re-tweeting it spreads to friends & ‘friends’ and people you (think you) know and (can) trust, which creates an illusion and perception of ‘pretty truthful’. Also, it is often picked up & aided by MSM, and so on and so forth, giving it another ‘layer of legitimacy’.
Drowsy M – exactly. It amazes me there are all these deranged people who have been brainwashed lurking in communities everywhere. How do they manage the normal chores of daily living when their heads are in outer space somewhere?
Made the mistake out of curiosity of having a look at Kiwiblog a short while ago. Unbelievable. Two minutes of it was more than enough.
Deranged people who have been brainwashed lurking in communities everywhere?Some of them are doctors and lawyers.
Our farmer friends have an offal pit. It is a lot more savoury than Kiwiblog. At some time that site used to carry a slogan, something like "Fomenting happy mischief." It operates like a 24 hour a day night cart the driver happy to collect and spread as much crap as possible, present and misrepresent as much as possible.
New poster here so be gentle.
I don't know if this has bee brought up here – there is a lot of things to read. What does everyone think the cabinet reshuffle will look like? Hipkins will no doubt move pieces around but does anyone have an opinion on who will go up and who will go down?
That is yet to be decided. Meanwhile announced but eclipsed by the PM's announcement was the spokesperson reshuffle by Luxon. Some up, some down. Any thoughts about what happened there?
I don't think there is too much to read – it's a fairly minor re-shuffle on the face of it – although the rehab of Collins and Muller is interesting – possibly a sign that the factions are aligning behind Luxon as the best route to success for National in October.
A quick glance gives me the following points of commentary
Kuriger has been demoted even further. Given Conservation – clearly as a sop – which tells us all the importance that National assign to that portfolio. Not that this would be much of a surprise. Although Labour's Poto Williams – current Minister – isn't exactly a shining star, either (although, at least she's not been tarred with using her office for personal/family gain)
Tama Potaka gets Maori Affairs (unsurprisingly), and associate housing – with a focus on social housing. That looks like a cunning move – to use him to challenge Labour in this area. It will be interesting to see how he stacks up against Megan Woods in the house – who is very typically on top of the issues of her portfolio.
Judith Collins is on the road to rehabilitation. Many on the left will look at her in disbelief, and wonder what it takes to bury her for good [NB: tongue in cheek, not a misogynous comment, or a threat]
Todd Muller is also on the rebound. Moving up to 12th – and gaining Agriculture (permanently) – which is a really significant portfolio for National in their October 2023 positioning.
Chris Bishop picks up urban reform and RMA. And National will be expecting him to be a significant attack strength on this in the House. Parker is currently point on this for Labour – will he retain this role under Hipkins?
I don't see much in Michael Woodhouse being Shadow Leader – he and Bishop have been tag-teaming this for the last couple of years.
Judith Collins: Nats attack dog. A strong indication of a dirty, no-holds-barred election campaign.
Nats seem to apply a recurrent strategy to their female MPs. When in government, hand them hot potato portfolios to do the dirty work, then replace them six months before the election, for the 'clean hand' look, leaving them to carry the karma.
In the case of Judith, the boys allow her out to maul the government when in opposition, by hook or by crook. But when in power, they try to muzzle her again. Not someone you'd trust behind your back once PM, as history shows.
However, I'm unable to think of another National women MP who fits your characterization – and who has been replaced just before an election – thus making it a trend.
The two high-profile National MPs I can think of who have been demoted (Collins and Bennett) had rankings change as part of a leadership coup. I think it's a bit of a long shot to describe this as being replaced "six months before the election, for the 'clean hand' look, leaving them to carry the karma."
Others, like Kuriger – have hardly been prominent enough to be described as doing the dirty work (and her demotion is entirely her own doing)
There's a possibility that Ministers who have announced their retirements will go down or even out. Ardern herself has an obvious set of portfolios to move to Hipkins, and clearly Hipkins' portfolios needing shifting.
Robertson has been confirmed as continuing as Minister of Finance – not sure if he will retain his other ministerial portfolios e.g. sport, but there's no real reason for him not to unless he wants less on his plate or is getting other big portfolios (acting Leader of the House and Minister of Public Service until the reshuffle).
Jan Tinetti as Minister of Education is obvious. Stuart Nash has been announced as acting Minister of Police – could see him retaining it.
Upwards could be Dr Deborah Russell, Barbara Edmonds, Dr Duncan Webb and Camilla Belich.
I know it is a wee while away – but who do we think will be the new MP for Mt Albert? I would put a dollar or two on Helen White MP. She lives in the Electorate and has been the assigned MP for Auckland Central – which was the role Jacinda had before she came to Mt Albert.
Helen is very cap[able – she is a lawyer and specialised in representing people in work disputes. She has maintained a good electorate organisation in Auckland Central.
I have a lot of time for Helen White. And she's definitely someone who has put the hard-yards in campaigning under thankless conditions over several elections. She's not exactly shone in the House or Government over the last 3 years (although, to be fair, she's had little opportunity as a backbencher)
If she does shift to Mt Albert – what impact do you think it would have on the electorate in Auckland Central?
Swarbrick has been a game-changer in that electorate for the Greens – and has the reputation of being a very good local MP. She may well have the strength to hold off all challengers.
But the 2020 results (which, aren't anything like the usual picture) were Greens: 12,631; Labour: 11,563; National: 9,775. This in an election which sent National to historic lows. That's not a comfortable margin for Swarbrick.
And, remembering that this was the electorate that Nikki Kaye held from the strong challenge of Jacinda Ardern, within very recent memory.
Not necessarily. The Greens have got their 5% plus – even when their Co-leader committed political suicide just before an election. The Greens ran Auckland Central like a by-election last time – there were people from all over the country working there – a friend of mine from Riccarton spent 4 weeks campaigning in Auckland Central. That is not going to be sustainable in the long term.
If the Greens can't get 5% overall, they should not be heavying Labour people in Auckland Central to vote Green in the electorate.
I agree that it's a solution – and one that's historically worked well for ACT in Epsom.
However, I'm not seeing any indication that Labour are prepared to give Swarbrick the nod (even unofficially) – and, indeed Helen White fought her to the wire in 2020.
I don't see a lot of evidence of tactical voting favouring the Greens (though plenty the other way around – people party-voting Green, but voting Labour for the candidate).
On the one hand – you can see the need for new ministers (who will be hopefully staying on after October 23) to gain the ministerial experience they'll need to hit the ground running.
On the other hand, Labour won't want to be exposed to any rookie Ministerial mistakes.
Perhaps lots of associates – taking an increasing amount of the load throughout the year?
So depressing for JA and her family. Protection in perpetuity because anti-vaxxers and their stablemates NACT voters are too dangerous.
“The security requirements for ex-Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern are going to be far tougher than any previous prime minister – by a lot.”
Threats against Ardern are well documented and were recorded to have tripled between 2020 and 2022. In mid-January police started investigating after leaflets threatening to “eradicate” Ardern were delivered to houses in Northland.
New Zealand is again having to reconcile conflicting pressures from its military and its trade interests. Should we join Pillar Two of AUKUS and risk compromising our markets in China? For a century after New Zealand was founded in 1840, its external security arrangements and external economics arrangements were aligned. ...
The ‘50 Shades of Green’ farmers’ protest in 2019 was heavy on climate change denial, but five years on, scepticism and criticism about the idea that pine forests can save us is growing across the board. File photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: Here’s the top six news items of note in climate ...
This morning the sky was bright.The birds, in their usual joyous bliss. Nature doesn’t seem to feel the heat of what might angst humans.Their calls are clear and beautiful.Just some random thoughts:MāoriPaul Goldsmith has announced his government will roll back the judiciary’s rulings on Māori Customary Marine Title, which recognises ...
In 2003, the Court of Appeal delivered its decision in Ngati Apa v Attorney-General, ruling that Māori customary title over the foreshore and seabed had not been universally extinguished, and that the Māori Land Court could determine claims and confirm title if the facts supported it. This kicked off the ...
Earlier this week at Parliament, Labour leader Chris Hipkins was applauded for saying that the response to the final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care had to be “bigger than politics.” True, but the fine words, apologies and “we hear you” messages will soon ring ...
TL;DR: In news breaking this morning:The Ministry of Education is cutting $2 billion from its school building programme so the National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government has enough money to deliver tax cuts; The Government has quietly lowered its child poverty reduction targets to make them easier to achieve;Te Whatu Ora-Health NZ’s ...
Kia ora. These are some stories that caught our eye this week – as always, feel free to share yours in the comments. Our header image this week (via Eke Panuku) shows the planned upgrade for the Karanga Plaza Tidal Swimming Steps. The week in Greater Auckland On ...
1. What's not to love about the way the Harris campaign is turning things around?a. Nothingb. Love all of itc. God what a reliefd. Not that it will be by any means easye. All of the above 2. Documents released by the Ministry of Health show Associate Health Minister Casey ...
Trust in me in all you doHave the faith I have in youLove will see us through, if only you trust in meWhy don't you, you trust me?In a week that saw the release of the 3,000 page Abuse in Care report Christopher Luxon was being asked about Boot Camps. ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking about the Royal Commission Inquiry into Abuse in Carereport released this week, and with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent on a UN push to not recognise carbon offset markets and ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 26, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Transport: Simeon Brown announced$802.9 million in funding for 18 new trains on the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines, which ...
The northern expressway extension from Warkworth to Whangarei is likely to require radical changes to legislation if it is going to be built within the foreseeable future. The Government’s powers to purchase land, the planning process and current restrictions on road tolling are all going to need to be changed ...
Text within this block will maintain its original spacing when publishedFirst they came for the doctors But I was confused by the numbers and costs So I didn't speak up Then they came for our police and nurses And I didn't think we could afford those costs anyway So I ...
Photo by Joshua J. Cotten on UnsplashWe’re back again after our mid-winter break. We’re still with the ‘new’ day of the week (Thursday rather than Friday) when we have our ‘hoon’ webinar with paying subscribers to The Kākā for an hour at 5 pm.Jump on this link on YouTube Livestream ...
Notes: This is a free article. Abuse in Care themes are mentioned. Video is at the bottom.BackgroundYesterday’s report into Abuse in Care revealed that at least 1 in 3 of all who went through state and faith based care were abused - often horrifically. At least, because not all survivors ...
Luxon speaks in Parliament yesterday about the Abuse in Care report. Photo: Hagen Hopkins/Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:PM Christopher Luxon said yesterday in tabling the Abuse in Carereport in Parliament he wanted to ‘do the ...
About a decade ago I worked with a bloke called Steve. He was the grizzled veteran coder, a few years older than me, who knew where the bodies were buried - code wise. Despite his best efforts to be approachable and friendly he could be kind of gruff, through to ...
Some of the recent announcements from the government have reminded us of posts we’ve written in the past. Here’s one from early 2020. There were plenty of reactions to the government’s infrastructure announcement a few weeks ago which saw them fund a bunch of big roading projects. One of ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Thursday, July 25 are:News: Why Electric Kiwi is closing to new customers - and why it matters RNZ’s Susan EdmundsScoop: Government drops ...
Hi,I felt a small wet tongue snaking through one of the holes in my Crocs. It explored my big toe, darting down one side, then the other. “He’s looking for some toe cheese,” said the woman next to me, words that still haunt me to this day.Growing up in New ...
Yesterday I happily quoted the Prime Minister without fact-checking him and sure enough, it turns out his numbers were all to hell. It’s not four kg of Royal Commission report, it’s fourteen.My friend and one-time colleague-in-comms Hazel Phillips gently alerted me to my error almost as soon as I’d hit ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Thursday, July 25, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day were:The Abuse in Care Royal Commission of Inquirypublished its final report yesterday.PM Christopher Luxon and The Minister responsible for ...
The Official Information Act has always been a battle between requesters seeking information, and governments seeking to control it. Information is power, so Ministers and government agencies want to manage what is released and when, for their own convenience, and legality and democracy be damned. Their most recent tactic for ...
TL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:Transport and Energy Minister Simeon Brown is accelerating plans to spend at least $10 billion through Public Private Partnerships (PPPs) to extend State Highway One as a four-lane ‘Expressway’ from Warkworth to Whangarei ...
I live my life (woo-ooh-ooh)With no control in my destinyYea-yeah, yea-yeah (woo-ooh-ooh)I can bleed when I want to bleedSo come on, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)You can bleed when you want to bleedYea-yeah, come on (woo-ooh-ooh)Everybody bleed when they want to bleedCome on and bleedGovernments face tough challenges. Selling unpopular decisions to ...
Please note:To skip directly to the- parliamentary footage in the video, scroll to 1:21 To skip to audio please click on the headphone iconon the left hand side of the screenThis video / audio section is under development. ...
Given the crackdown on wasteful government spending, it behooves me to point to a high profile example of spending by the Luxon government that looks like a big, fat waste of time and money. I’m talking about the deployment of NZDF personnel to support the US-led coalition in the Red ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:40 am on Wednesday, July 24 are:Deep Dive: Chipping away at the housing crisis, including my comments RNZ/Newsroom’s The DetailNews: Government softens on asset sales, ...
As I reported about the city centre, Auckland’s rail network is also going through a difficult and disruptive period which is rapidly approaching a culmination, this will result in a significant upgrade to the whole network. Hallelujah. Also like the city centre this is an upgrade predicated on the City ...
Today, a 4 kilogram report will be delivered to Parliament. We know this is what the report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care weighs, because our Prime Minister told us so.Some reporter had blindsided him by asking a question about something done by ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Wednesday, July 24, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Beehive:Transport Minister Simeon Brownannounced plans to use PPPs to fund, build and run a four-lane expressway between Auckland ...
NewstalkZB host Mike Hosking, who can usually be relied on to give Prime Minister Christopher Luxon an easy run, did not do so yesterday when he interviewed him about the HealthNZ deficit. Luxon is trying to use a deficit reported last year by HealthNZ as yet another example of the ...
Back in January a StatsNZ employee gave a speech at Rātana on behalf of tangata whenua in which he insulted and criticised the government. The speech clearly violated the principle of a neutral public service, and StatsNZ started an investigation. Part of that was getting an external consultant to examine ...
Renting for life: Shared ownership initiatives are unlikely to slow the slide in home ownership by much. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy today are:A Deloittereport for Westpac has projected Aotearoa’s home-ownership rate will ...
You're broken down and tiredOf living life on a merry go roundAnd you can't find the fighterBut I see it in you so we gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsWe gonna walk it outAnd move mountainsAnd I'll rise upI'll rise like the dayI'll rise upI'll rise unafraidI'll rise upAnd I'll ...
There’s been a change in Myers Park. Down the steps from St. Kevin’s Arcade, past the grassy slopes, the children’s playground, the benches and that goat statue, there has been a transformation. The underpass for Mayoral Drive has gone from a barren, grey, concrete tunnel, to a place that thrums ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections Global society may have finally slammed on the brakes for climate-warming pollution released by human fossil fuel combustion. According to the Carbon Monitor Project, the total global climate pollution released between February and May 2024 declined slightly from the amount released during the same ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Tuesday, July 23 are:Deep Dive: Penlink: where tolling rhetoric meets reality BusinessDesk-$$$’sOliver LewisScoop:Te Pūkenga plans for regional polytechs leak out ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Tuesday, July 23, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:Health: Shane Reti announcedthe Board of Te Whatu Ora-Health New Zealand was being replaced with Commissioner Lester Levy ...
Health NZ warned the Government at the end of March that it was running over Budget. But the reasons it gave were very different to those offered by the Prime Minister yesterday. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon blamed the “botched merger” of the 20 District Health Boards (DHBs) to create Health ...
Long ReadKey Summary: Although National increased the health budget by $1.4 billion in May, they used an old funding model to project health system costs, and never bothered to update their pre-election numbers. They were told during the Health Select Committees earlier in the year their budget amount was deficient, ...
As a momentous, historic weekend in US politics unfolded, analysts and commentators grasped for precedents and comparisons to help explain the significance and power of the choice Joe Biden had made. The 46th president had swept the Democratic party’s primaries but just over 100 days from the election had chosen ...
TL;DR: I’m casting around for new ideas and ways of thinking about Aotearoa’s political economy to find a few solutions to our cascading and self-reinforcing housing, poverty and climate crises.Associate Professor runs an online masters degree in the economics of sustainability at Torrens University in Australia and is organising ...
The Finance and Expenditure Committee has reported back on National's Local Government (Water Services Preliminary Arrangements) Bill. The bill sets up water for privatisation, and was introduced under urgency, then rammed through select committee with no time even for local councils to make a proper submission. Naturally, national's select committee ...
Some years ago, I bought a book at Dunedin’s Regent Booksale for $1.50. As one does. Vandrad the Viking (1898), by J. Storer Clouston, is an obscure book these days – I cannot find a proper online review – but soon it was sitting on my shelf, gathering dust alongside ...
History is not on the side of the centre-left, when Democratic presidents fall behind in the polls and choose not to run for re-election. On both previous occasions in the past 75 years (Harry Truman in 1952, Lyndon Johnson in 1968) the Democrats proceeded to then lose the White House ...
This is a free articleCoverageThis morning, US President Joe Biden announced his withdrawal from the Presidential race. And that is genuinely newsworthy. Thanks for your service, President Biden, and all the best to you and yours.However, the media in New Zealand, particularly the 1News nightly bulletin, has been breathlessly covering ...
A homeless person’s camp beside a blocked-off slipped damage walkway in Freeman’s Bay: we are chasing our tail on our worsening and inter-related housing, poverty and climate crises. Photo: Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy ...
What has happened to it all?Crazy, some'd sayWhere is the life that I recognise?(Gone away)But I won't cry for yesterdayThere's an ordinary worldSomehow I have to findAnd as I try to make my wayTo the ordinary worldYesterday morning began as many others - what to write about today? I began ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 7:00 am on Monday, July 22 are:Today’s Must Read: Father and son live in a tent, and have done for four years, in a million ...
TL;DR: As of 7:00 am on Monday, July 22, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:US President Joe Biden announced via X this morning he would not stand for a second term.Multinational professional services firm ...
A listing of 32 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, July 14, 2024 thru Sat, July 20, 2024. Story of the week As reflected by preponderance of coverage, our Story of the Week is Project 2025. Until now traveling ...
This weekend, a friend pointed out someone who said they’d like to read my posts, but didn’t want to pay. And my first reaction was sympathy.I’ve already told folks that if they can’t comfortably subscribe, and would like to read, I’d be happy to offer free subscriptions. I don’t want ...
National: The Party of ‘Law and Order’ IntroductionThis weekend, the Government formally kicked off one of their flagship policy programs: a military style boot camp that New Zealand has experimented with over the past 50 years. Cartoon credit: Guy BodyIt’s very popular with the National Party’s Law and Orderimage, ...
Day one of the solo leg of my long journey home begins with my favourite sound: footfalls in an empty street. 5.00 am and it’s already light and already too warm, almost.If I can make the train that leaves Budapest later this hour I could be in Belgrade by nightfall; ...
Do you remember Y2K, the threat that hung over humanity in the closing days of the twentieth century? Horror scenarios of planes falling from the sky, electronic payments failing and ATMs refusing to dispense cash. As for your VCR following instructions and recording your favourite show - forget about it.All ...
Climate Change Minister Simon Watts being questioned by The Kākā’s Bernard Hickey.TL;DR: My top six things to note around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the week to July 20 were:1. A strategy that fails Zero Carbon Act & Paris targetsThe National-ACT-NZ First Coalition Government finally unveiled ...
Summary:As New Zealand loses at least 12 leaders in the public service space of health, climate, and pharmaceuticals, this month alone, directly in response to the Government’s policies and budget choices, what lies ahead may be darker than it appears. Tui examines some of those departures and draws a long ...
The Minister of Housing’s ambition is to reduce markedly the ratio of house prices to household incomes. If his strategy works it would transform the housing market, dramatically changing the prospects of housing as an investment.Leaving aside the Minister’s metaphor of ‘flooding the market’ I do not see how the ...
As previously noted, my historical fantasy piece, set in the fifth-century Mediterranean, was accepted for a Pirate Horror anthology, only for the anthology to later fall through. But in a good bit of news, it turned out that the story could indeed be re-marketed as sword and sorcery. As of ...
An employee of tobacco company Philip Morris International demonstrates a heated tobacco device. Photo: Getty ImagesTL;DR: The top six things I’ve noted around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy on Friday, July 19 are:At a time when the Coalition Government is cutting spending on health, infrastructure, education, housing ...
TL;DR: My pick of the top six links elsewhere around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day or so to 8:30 am on Friday, July 19 are:Scoop: NZ First Minister Casey Costello orders 50% cut to excise tax on heated tobacco products. The minister has ...
Kia ora, it’s time for another Friday roundup, in which we pull together some of the links and stories that caught our eye this week. Feel free to add more in the comments! Our header image this week shows a foggy day in Auckland town, captured by Patrick Reynolds. ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. A discussion recorded yesterday is in the video above and the audio of that sent onto the podcast feed.The Government released its draft Emissions Reduction ...
Save some money, get rich and old, bring it back to Tobacco Road.Bring that dynamite and a crane, blow it up, start all over again.Roll up. Roll up. Or tailor made, if you prefer...Whether you’re selling ciggies, digging for gold, catching dolphins in your nets, or encouraging folks to flutter ...
Waiting In The Wings:For truly, if Trump is America’s un-assassinated Caesar, then J.D. Vance is America’s Octavian, the Republic’s youthful undertaker – and its first Emperor.DONALD TRUMP’S SELECTION of James D. Vance as his running-mate bodes ill for the American republic. A fervent supporter of Viktor Orban, the “illiberal” prime ...
TL;DR: As of 6:00 am on Friday, July 19, the top six announcements, speeches, reports and research around housing, climate and poverty in Aotearoa’s political economy in the last day are:The PSAannounced the Employment Relations Authority (ERA) had ruled in the PSA’s favour in its case against the Ministry ...
TL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for paying subscribers last night features co-hosts and talking with:The Kākā’s climate correspondent talking about the National-ACT-NZ First Government’s release of its first Emissions Reduction Plan;University of Otago Foreign Relations Professor and special guest Dr Karin von ...
Open access notablesImproving global temperature datasets to better account for non-uniform warming, Calvert, Quarterly Journal of the Royal Meteorological Society:To better account for spatial non-uniform trends in warming, a new GITD [global instrumental temperature dataset] was created that used maximum likelihood estimation (MLE) to combine the land surface ...
A late change to charter school legislation will cheat educators out of fair pay and negotiating power proving charter schools are just a vehicle to make profit out of our education system. ...
In 2004 te iwi Māori rallied against the Crown’s attempt to confiscate our coastlines and moana with the Foreshore and Seabed Act. This led to the largest hīkoi of a generation and the birth of Te Pāti Māori. 20 years later, history is repeating itself. Today the government has announced ...
It has been five and a half years since the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care was established to investigate the abuse of children, young people, and vulnerable adults within state and faith-based institutions. Yesterday, the final report - Whanaketia through pain and trauma, from darkness to light ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to take action off the back of the International Court of Justice ruling on Israel’s illegal occupation of Palestine. ...
On Friday the International Court of Justice reaffirmed what Palestinian’s have been telling us for decades: that the occupation and colonisation of Palestinian lands by Israel is illegal and must end immediately. They also called for reparations for Palestinian’s who have lived under Israeli occupation since it began in 1967. ...
Labour calls on the Government to act after the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ruled that Israel’s occupation of Palestinian Territories is illegal. ...
The 53.7 percent rise in benefit sanctions over the last year is more proof of this Government’s disdain for our communities most in need of support. ...
Aotearoa could be a country where every child grows up feeling safe, loved and with a sense of belonging in their whānau and community. But for some of our children, this is far from reality. Instead, they are trapped in a maze of intergenerational harm that they can’t escape on ...
Te Pāti Māori are calling for David Seymour to resign as Associate Health Minister in response to his call for Pharmac to ignore the Treaty of Waitangi. “This announcement is just another example of the government’s anti-Tiriti, anti-Māori agenda.” Said Co-leader and spokesperson for health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. “Seymour thinks it ...
The soaring price of renting is driving the rise of inflation in this country - with latest figures from Stats NZ showing rents are up 4.8 per cent on average while annual inflation is at 3.3 per cent. ...
National’s Emissions Reduction Plan will take New Zealand further from the economy we need to ensure the next generation has a stable climate and secure livelihoods. ...
Following consultation with named parties and thorough consideration of privacy interests, the Green Party is in a position to release the Executive Summary of the final report from the independent investigation into Darleen Tana. ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon should be asking serious questions of his Minister for Resources Shane Jones now it’s been revealed he misled the public about a dinner with mining companies that he didn’t declare and said wasn’t pre-arranged. ...
Te Pāti Māori have submitted to the Justice Select Committee against the Sentencing (Reinstating Three Strikes) Amendment Bill. The bill will further entrench racism in our justice system and fails to focus on rehabilitation. “Reinstating Three Strikes will empower a systematically racist system and exacerbate the overrepresentation of Māori in ...
The Transport and Infrastructure Committee is set to make a determination on the Residential Tenancies Amendment (RTA) Bill in the coming weeks. “This legislation will give landlords the power to kick our whānau out onto the street for no reason” said Housing spokesperson, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “Their solution to the housing ...
“National’s campaign was about tackling crime and the best they can do is a two-year long Ministerial Advisory Group,” Labour justice spokesperson Duncan Webb said. ...
“There are more examples of charter schools failing their students than there are success stories. The coalition Government is driving to dismantle our public school system and instead promote a privatised, competitive structure that puts profits before kids,” Jan Tinetti said. ...
“This government is choosing to deliberately mislead and withhold information, keeping our people in the dark about this government’s agenda and the future of our mokopuna,” said co-leader and spokesperson for Health, Debbie Ngarewa-Packer. The call comes after the demand from the Chief Ombudsman that Associate Minister of Health, Casey ...
“Today’s climate announcement by Simon Watts makes clear the National Government is simply paying lip service to meeting its climate change targets,” Megan Woods said. ...
National is choosing to make life harder for workers by taking away the rights our communities have fought hard for. Here's how they’re taking workers backwards. ...
Australia, Canada and New Zealand today issued the following statement on the need for an urgent ceasefire in Gaza and the risk of expanded conflict between Hizballah and Israel. The situation in Gaza is catastrophic. The human suffering is unacceptable. It cannot continue. We remain unequivocal in our condemnation of ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today reminded all State and faith-based institutions of their legal obligation to preserve records relevant to the safety and wellbeing of those in its care. “The Abuse in Care Inquiry’s report has found cases where records of the most vulnerable people in State and faith‑based institutions were ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says the Government’s online safety website for children and young people has reached one million page views. “It is great to see so many young people and their families accessing the site Keep It Real Online to learn how to stay safe online, and manage ...
Tēnā tātou katoa, Ngā mihi te rangi, ngā mihi te whenua, ngā mihi ki a koutou, kia ora mai koutou. Thank you for the opportunity to be here and the invitation to speak at this 50th anniversary conference. I acknowledge all those who have gone before us and paved the ...
New Zealand’s payroll providers have successfully prepared to ensure 3.5 million individuals will, from Wednesday next week, be able to keep more of what they earn each pay, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis and Revenue Minister Simon Watts. “The Government's tax policy changes are legally effective from Wednesday. Delivering this tax ...
An experimental vineyard which will help futureproof the wine sector has been opened in Blenheim by Associate Regional Development Minister Mark Patterson. The covered vineyard, based at the New Zealand Wine Centre – Te Pokapū Wāina o Aotearoa, enables controlled environmental conditions. “The research that will be produced at the Experimental ...
The Coalition Government has confirmed the indicative regional breakdown of North Island Weather Event (NIWE) funding for state highway recovery projects funded through Budget 2024, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Regions in the North Island suffered extensive and devastating damage from Cyclone Gabrielle and the 2023 Auckland Anniversary Floods, and ...
Indonesia’s Foreign Minister, Retno Marsudi, will visit New Zealand next week, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “Indonesia is important to New Zealand’s security and economic interests and is our closest South East Asian neighbour,” says Mr Peters, who is currently in Laos to engage with South East Asian partners. ...
He aha te kai a te rangatira? He kōrero, he kōrero, he kōrero. The government has reaffirmed its commitment to supporting the aspirations of Ngāti Maniapoto, Minister for Māori Development Tama Potaka says. “My thanks to Te Nehenehenui Trust – Ngāti Maniapoto for bringing their important kōrero to a ministerial ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has thanked outgoing Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority, Janice Fredric, for her service to the board.“I have received Ms Fredric’s resignation from the role of Chair of the Civil Aviation Authority,” Mr Brown says.“On behalf of the Government, I want to thank Ms Fredric for ...
The Government is proposing legislation to overturn a Court of Appeal decision and amend the Marine and Coastal Area Act in order to restore Parliament’s test for Customary Marine Title, Treaty Negotiations Minister Paul Goldsmith says. “Section 58 required an applicant group to prove they have exclusively used and occupied ...
Regulation Minister David Seymour says that opposition parties have united in bad faith, opposing what they claim are ‘dangerous changes’ to the Early Childhood Education sector, despite no changes even being proposed yet. “Issues with affordability and availability of early childhood education, and the complexity of its regulation, has led ...
After receiving more than 740 submissions in the first 20 days, Regulation Minister David Seymour is asking the Ministry for Regulation to extend engagement on the early childhood education regulation review by an extra two weeks. “The level of interest has been very high, and from the conversations I’ve been ...
The Coalition Government is investing $802.9 million into the Wairarapa and Manawatū rail lines as part of a funding agreement with the NZ Transport Agency (NZTA), KiwiRail, and the Greater Wellington and Horizons Regional Councils to deliver more reliable services for commuters in the lower North Island, Transport Minister Simeon ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced his intention to appoint a Crown Manager to both Hawke’s Bay Regional and Wairoa District Councils to speed up the delivery of flood protection work in Wairoa."Recent severe weather events in Wairoa this year, combined with damage from Cyclone Gabrielle in 2023 have ...
Mr Speaker, this is a day that many New Zealanders who were abused in State care never thought would come. It’s the day that this Parliament accepts, with deep sorrow and regret, the Report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in Care. At the heart of this report are the ...
For the first time, the Government is formally acknowledging some children and young people at Lake Alice Psychiatric Hospital experienced torture. The final report of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Abuse in State and Faith-based Care “Whanaketia – through pain and trauma, from darkness to light,” was tabled in Parliament ...
The Government has acknowledged the nearly 2,400 courageous survivors who shared their experiences during the Royal Commission of Inquiry into Historical Abuse in State and Faith-Based Care. The final report from the largest and most complex public inquiry ever held in New Zealand, the Royal Commission Inquiry “Whanaketia – through ...
With a week to go before hard-working New Zealanders see personal income tax relief for the first time in fourteen years, 513,000 people have used the Budget tax calculator to see how much they will benefit, says Finance Minister Nicola Willis. “Tax relief is long overdue. From next Wednesday, personal income ...
Workplace Relations and Safety Minister Brooke van Velden says a bill that has passed its first reading will improve parental leave settings and give non-biological parents more flexibility as primary carer for their child. The Regulatory Systems Amendment Bill (No3), passed its first reading this morning. “It includes a change ...
Two Bills designed to improve regulation and make it easier to do business have passed their first reading in Parliament, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. The Regulatory Systems (Economic Development) Amendment Bill and Regulatory Systems (Immigration and Workforce) Amendment Bill make key changes to legislation administered by the Ministry ...
New legislation paves the way for greater competition in sectors such as banking and electricity, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly says. “Competitive markets boost productivity, create employment opportunities and lift living standards. To support competition, we need good quality regulation but, unfortunately, a recent OECD report ranked New ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says lotteries for charitable purposes, such as those run by the Heart Foundation, Coastguard NZ, and local hospices, will soon be allowed to operate online permanently. “Under current laws, these fundraising lotteries are only allowed to operate online until October 2024, after which ...
The Coalition Government is accelerating work on the new four-lane expressway between Auckland and Whangārei as part of its Roads of National Significance programme, with an accelerated delivery model to deliver this project faster and more efficiently, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “For too long, the lack of resilient transport connections ...
Sir Don McKinnon will travel to Viet Nam this week as a Special Envoy of the Government, Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced. “It is important that the Government give due recognition to the significant contributions that General Secretary Nguyen Phu Trong made to New Zealand-Viet Nam relations,” Mr ...
Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden says newly appointed Commissioner, Grant Illingworth KC, will help deliver the report for the first phase of the Royal Commission of Inquiry into COVID-19 Lessons, due on 28 November 2024. “I am pleased to announce that Mr Illingworth will commence his appointment as ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters travels to Laos this week to participate in a series of Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN)-led Ministerial meetings in Vientiane. “ASEAN plays an important role in supporting a peaceful, stable and prosperous Indo-Pacific,” Mr Peters says. “This will be our third visit to ...
Construction of a new mental health facility at Te Nikau Grey Hospital in Greymouth is today one step closer, Mental Health Minister Matt Doocey says. “This $27 million facility shows this Government is delivering on its promise to boost mental health care and improve front line services,” Mr Doocey says. ...
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A word I have heard thrown around a lot of recent days in various forms, is "misogyny".
However, I am wondering if that word is being used accurately. Language and its meanings matter.
In respect to Jacinda, certainly very vile, and nasty things have been said of her by various groups. And I don't defend that. That stuff is totally unacceptable, and certainly not my style. However, the question I am asking is whether it is necessarily misogynistic.
Here are several definitions of the word "misogyny".
Mirriam-Webster: "hatred of, aversion to, or prejudice against women".
Dictionary.com. "1. hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women, manifested in various forms such as physical intimidation and abuse, sexual harassment and rape, social shunning and ostracism, etc.:the underlying misogyny in slut-shaming;Historically witch hunts were an embodiment of the misogyny of the time.
So, based on those definitions, it seems that misogyny is referring to hatred, dislike or prejudice against women generally.
So, to me the comment: "Woman, get back in the kitchen" would be highly misogynistic because the speaker is implying that women should be confined to domestic tasks to serve men. And, we can all think of male dominated groups that treat women as second-class citizens, and so would definitely meet the definitions above.
But, I would argue that vile, nasty comments about a specific woman are not necessarily misogynistic according to the definitions above. In fact, it may even be possible to make criminal comments (eg threatening to kill a specific woman) without those comments being misogynistic by definition.
I think a lot of hatred against Jacinda is from anti-vaxxers who may have lost their jobs or that they have felt like second-class citizens and, rightly or wrongly, see Jacinda responsible for that. Likely because she was fronting a lot of this stuff.
So, in those cases, the anger against Jacinda would not have been because she is a woman. But because they think she is responsible for the suffering in their lives. And, they would likely be equally angry against a male leader for the same reasons.
I certainly think these sort of people are likely misguided, because it was a very difficult situation to manage, and it wasn't only Jacinda responsible for the decisions.
But according to the definitions of "misogyny", is the word being used accurately?
Misogyny against left wing women for sure. Helen Clark and گلریز قهرمان (GG) and Nanaia Mahuta (and Kiri Allan if/when leader) here Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi, AOC, RT, and Ilhan Omar in Congress.
Any women in the way of the selfishness of white middle class partriarchy capitalism – it’s as if such women were in rebellion against their God and mammon brotherhood cult (an American led broederbond as it were).
While I'll accept women in politics get a level of hate and scrutiny and criticism men don't get and the attacks and conspiracies on Helen Clark,Julia Gillard and Jacindas personal lives are disgusting.
However the idea that Hillary Clinton and Pelosi stood in the way of capitalism? 😂😂
Hillary Clinton is as corporate neoliberal as it gets and while running against Obama in 08 her campaign team resorted to despicable race baiting and islamiphobic accusations about Obama's religion.
While noone deserves the level of conspiratorial hatred she got, 50% of the criticism HRC gets like her pro corporate votes in the Senate, ie her support of banking deregulation, her extreme closeness with wall street is legitimate and too often gets dismissed.
And Nancy Pelosi is an unreconstructed corporate neoliberal who defended tooth and nail that members of Congress like herself should be able to use insider info to trade in shares of the very companies Congress were regulating.
Clinton and Pelosi would be way to the right of the Act party.
The personal attacks, the conspiracies, the poking around in politicians lives is disgusting, but too often legitimate criticis of policies and actions gets called misogynistic which dilutes the term.
One thing that was always weird was the pearl clutching the left had over the nickname Cindy being misogynistic as if all prime ministers don't get infantilized nicknames like shonkey , the smiling assassin, Jonny boy, piggy, double dipping dipstick from dipton, Winnie, chippie, aunty Helen, Pullya benefits, Soimon, angry Andy, big norm, Scomo, Kevo, albo, Maggie, Tone, Bliar, Gordo, jezza, Keith, bojo, Slick willy, Jack, dubya, tricky dick etc etc etc Cindy was just another one of those and the freakouts were ridiculous.
We should stop attacking politicians personal lives and focus on their policies and we need to stop expecting politicians to be perfect angels and have no past because the toxicity discourages regular people from standing for office and we'll end up with unrelatable robots with little life experience because they've never messed up or lived a real life.
Here's the difference. Women get called infantilising names by men in situations where it impacts beyond name calling. eg men do it to put women in their place and it works to an extent because of the constant background sexism and because system sexism means that men are often in positions of power to back that up. So if a woman says 'don't call me that', and then insists on it, the man can not promote her or whatever.
Calling JA Cindy has a different meaning and purpose than calling JK Shonkey. The sexism is built in.
So the sexist abuse addressed to Paula Bennett by the left (Pullya Benefit) was just as despicable?
What a dreadful take! Pullya Benefit has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with me first Tories hating on the vulnerable.
So, in your world, to draw the parallel, Jabcinda, Taxcinda and Vaxcinda – are entirely valid as political commentary on Jacinda's policies.
If you validate slurs against politicians you don't agree with, you can't complain about slurs against politicians you do agree with.
Personally – I think that all of them are equally vile.
But, clearly, your mileage does vary.
Just to be clear, in your respectful centrist mind, "Pullya Benefit", and the 'parallel' slurs ("Jabcinda, Taxcinda and Vaxcinda") you introduced in this thread, are "equally vile"? Looks like three-on-one to me.
How about "Paula Bennett" @1.1.1.1.1 versus "Jacinda's policies" @9:32 am – still 'parallel'; equal treatment?
Clearly, our mileage does vary – quelle surprise.
I'm commenting on the practice of making slurs out of politician's names or other physical characteristics.
I find this vile, in all instances (male, female, right, left, popular or unpopular)
Clearly, your mileage also varies. I'm also not surprised.
Are you though? If you insist that a politician's name is one of their "physical characteristics" then we probably won't get very far.
Facilitated by 'social' media, the slurs and other abuse directed at our PM have been quantitatively and qualitatively worse than for any other NZ PM.
Perhaps reflect on your choice in this thread to write “Jacinda’s policies“, and use the full name of former deputy PM, Paula “Zip it, sweetie” Bennett.
Maybe the left and the right have contributed equally to this trend – maybe the ‘contributions’ of the major political camps “are equally vile. Even some centrists might be getting in on the Act.
You don't draw a distinction between Taxinda and Horseface?
Those aren't sexist, and politicised nicknames is a different issue than sexism (although sexists use politicised nicknames too).
I think they are all unacceptable.
The point was made earlier on TS – that the volume of abuse that women politicians receive is increasing. I don't think it's helpful to distinguish between specifically sexist abuse, and politicised (and very deliberately designed to be hurtful) nicknames.
They are all unacceptable.
These are not 'friendly' jokes – they are used exclusively by the 'other side' to belittle and ridicule. (Which is why you don't see any of the 'nasty' names used for Ardern on TS).
And, to be fair – I don't really see why, if it's unacceptable to do this to women, it should be acceptable to do it to men.
[The only current exception, I can think of, is "Chippy" – which is used by right and left – although Hipkins has reportedly said that he doesn't care for it as a nickname – and therefore I wouldn't use it]
Agree with this. Now I know Chris Hipkins does not like Chippie I won't ever say or write it again.
I have been aware for many years of the so-called 'friendly' jokes since the 1970s. At that time I was had on about not having a sense of humour for not thinking they were funny. When I came back to PS in the early 2000s I was appalled at the sexism, jokes and lack of knowledge about the 'isms' that many of us had been fighting for previously. It was as if things had slipped back, needed to be constantly reinforced.
Call me old fashioned but I think the media should be guided by the actual person on how they what they want to be called.
Only got Ministerial office experience in this. Some Ministers liked to be called Minister Blue when talking about anything to do with any of their portfolios, others liked to be Joanne Blue Minister of Unicorns. or Popcorn or whatever The press releases ALWAYS have the preferred form of address.
Some news media were pretty much toerags and just called them Joanne Blue or Blue and you had to read through a bit to see what was what. Deliberate nasty policy and NZ Herald was one of the instigators of this, what a surprise that will be.
I don't like Christian names, variations of Christian names when we talk of people in their official capacities. Another bit of old fashioned thought.
I find it helps to focus on the office and not get tied up with the person who is holding that office. When I was out and about more pre Covid I could adopt a slightly puzzled air when someone said 'Jacinda this' or 'that' & say 'oh you mean the Prime Minister'
Jabcinda and Vaxcinda are variations on the same theme, that being the views of disturbed anti-vaxxers, so we'll put that aside.
Taxcinda is less outrageous but what did Jacinda Ardern actually do? The top tax rate moved to 39% for incomes over $180,000. You could say the extension of the bright line test might be considered 'more tax' but only one realised if you like flipping the houses in your vast property portfolio.
So the people using Taxcinda are conservatives punching down.
Pullya Benefit is a term used by lefties to punch up because she literally took benefits away from solo mothers.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/08/kiwis-on-benefit-deserve-cost-of-living-payment-more-than-anyone-paula-bennett-says.html
As a card carrying right winger masquerading as a centrist, I can see why you unable to tell the difference.
Whatever you are MB, rw/LW pick or purple, I do not agree there is any justification for either Taxcinda or Pullya. They are just not funny or clever and remind me of naughty wee boys showing Dad's penthouses behind the bike shed.
Are there recent male names like this that spring to mind or are these female only 'jokes' or witticisms?
NB I've never heard of many of these nicknames from Corey. Some like Big Norm were always said with affection, even Piggy possibly.
You are talking about sometimes TS commenter, "Tory? Hmm".
"Are there recent male names like this that spring to mind or are these female only 'jokes' or witticisms? "
There are male equivalents, directed at Luxon and Seymour – mostly around appearance, rather than personal names – appearing on TS from the usual suspects (almost certainly males, who think this kind of juvenile locker-room humour is funny)
As a card-carrying left-winger, I'm not surprised you can't tell the difference. Abuse is abuse. Except when the left do it, then it's justified /sarc/
Meh. One TS commenter, DMK, suggested there are some who hide their affiliation.
That's you. The rest of us are open so you might want to consider that when commenting.
You post from corrupt position which of course is natural for your right wing tendencies.
of course.
Too often … when have legitimate criticisms of policies been called misogynistic?
Clinton might be seen as centre-right here, but support for Obama Care and opposition to GOP cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid is seen as part of their centre-left.
There are a couple of simple ways to see if the abuse being heaped a person is personal or not
1 to replace any words denoting gender from female to male
2 to replace any personal names with the with rank or position or with first names of the other gender.. Then to be specific about these positions perhaps replace Cindy, with Prime Minister then with the Government. (She represents the Govt – she did not do all these things by herself.)
so 'I hate Cindy, replace with Prime Minister replace with Government. or if you want to be really specific 'the Govt of NZ'
I don't think it works as a insult when you do this. the insult relies on the use of the first name or versions of it (ie infantilising it to Cindy, or not using a preferred name. Obviously the insulters are not going to do this as they want it to be read as an insult.
My family name is one that is subject to constant misspelling. Aside from responding in ways appropriate to the occasion we were always told a person's name is a person's identity, their existence, the fact they exist in the world. By misspelling, etc you remove an identity. Those flinging insults along these lines have picked up on this instinctively or more than likely deliberately
You mention those who may have lost their jobs. You omit the point about choice.
They chose to place themselves in a position where they lost their jobs. The conscientious objectors and those demonstrating in the Springbok tour, the 1951 strike were well aware of this. It was part of them that those at the time admired. They knew they faced opprobrium and the consequences.
By contrast many of those antis who may have lost their jobs feel hurt and hard done by the fact that sanctions happened…..almost as though they had not thought through their actions and looked at, and accepted, the consequences.
Christopher Luxon has had an easy run in comparison. He stated early on that his name was Christopher Luxon or rank/title and this is the name/rank/title he is given. Jacinda Ardern similar.
However in large part due to insult, her name has been shortened to Jacinda, Cindy. often leaving off the surname and the rank. This is often used by news media and it is debatable if it is used to denigrate, I believe it is.
So if you call it misogyny, insult, teasing, the end purpose is the same and that is to lower the person in the eyes of others. This is hugely powerful when that person is in a position of power as it goes not only to the person but the positon as well.
That is actually a really enlightening and interesting tool. Thanks! Amazing what it shows actually.
Hurt people hurt people and when they do, they often use voodoo doll methods. When lashing out at and targeting a person they make it as specific as possible by personalising the attack. The more personalised the attack, the more effective it feels to the attacker – they feel they are hitting the intended target – and the more hurtful it feels to the attacked – it cuts closer to the bone. It is symbolic but symbolism is hugely important and powerful, as are metaphors.
Anger and hatred are such strong emotions that peel away layers of pretence and scratch off the veneer of civilisation. This may uncover hidden & latent sexism and misogyny, or other prejudices, which are normally only surface in casual ways. One’s angry and hateful outbursts are limited by the available vocabulary and idiom – tell us what you really think. I don’t think there’s such a thing as a ‘rational PC outburst’.
I am the wrong one to comment possibly. Using words like 'hate' indiscriminately was pounced on in our family, teasing about personal characteristics ditto, the importance of addressing people by their correct name or title and spelling ditto. My nieces ditto by their mother.
Having only ever heard my father say 'you silly sausage' and 'damn' when he hit himself on the finger when hammering I never heard words like Fcuk and C**t uttered. My husband could string together a good range of epithets, being Navy, but never at me, but I doubt he would ever have written them down, well I know he wouldn't have. My current partner is a bit like my father with silly sausage and damn even when skippering a two person yacht going round Cape Jackson, when epithets are more or less excused in tight situations no matter who the company.
My dad was in the war and no doubt heard bad language, may even have said it himself. He and my partner would be able to speak and write rationally even in extremis or have the ability to move away/retire if the situation was getting heated. My dad had a boxing blue.
He couldn't prevent me from going on marches but he did say 'look right, look left' and 'if you don't like what you see there, leave'. And I have a couple of times where it looked as though we were being accompanied by hangers-on there for the possible stoush. This simple maxim would have prevented the so-called (I have my doubts) ordinary folk from being part of the occupation at Parliament in the company of alt rightists, Nazis etc.
Bad language is a habit. It is not ingrained it is not innate.
This might sound prissy but there are families that don't swear and carry on.
There are also commentators on TS who are careful to refer to politicians by name – and others who feel free to use deliberately-intended to be insulting nicknames.
I know which ones I respect more.
On another matter……I am utterly appalled at the ignorance of Christopher Luxon on the matter of insults to woman in power. He really has lead a very sheltered life. Did he not have an inkling of this when in his much vaunted 'running a company' positions?
Where was he at the time of the hounding of Aus PM Julia Gillard? Did he not see her powerful speech
I can't help thinking that this ignorance is in large part reinforced by the patriarchal church he belongs to.
While other churches and their leaders may stand up in the pulpit and draw attention to many unfair aspects of modern day life …..what is happening in his life/church? Russell Marshall was called the Red Reverend.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Marshall
Church leaders stood up against the Springbok tour
How many other aspects of modern day life are we going to uncover that he does not know about?
Women
Maori
'bottom feeders'
This article has a good (short) summary of politicised misogeny (Firefox is your friend).
https://www.internationalaffairs.org.au/australianoutlook/the-woman-paradox-misogyny-and-women-in-the-far-right/
This is the most worrying comment in that article:
"Studies have found that anti-women attitudes [link to a Monash international study of misogenistic behaviour] are the biggest predictors of attitudes of violent extremism, and this is true for far-right groups as well. Research from Swinburne University [extensive report on politicised misogeny in Victoria, Australia] has shown that far-right sentiments were most often coupled with anti-feminist and anti-women statements, in comparison to anti-left sentiment or racist sentiments."
And some completely woo-woo opinion from me, that misogenistic people probably have poor relationships with their mums, or grew up in families with abusive parents (of either sex). The hatred that spews forth seems to come from a deep subconcious well. It is far in excess of that generated by the visible target.
And I remember despising Piggy Muldoon for his authoritarian actions and his pleasure in ripping opponents down with personal attacks. But I never wished him dead, only dribbling into the obscurity into which he eventually sunk.
Good discussion about misogyny and its implications.
I think a lot of the problems faced by female politicians is that there remains the underlying, but usually not publicly expressed, expectation that males are dominant, females submissive and when a female politician is successful and powerful many males feel threatened because this is reversal of "the natural order of things".
Julia Gillard, Helen Clark, France's Sigourney Royale, Margaret Thatcher, Finland's Sanna Marin – only a few successful female politicians that have suffered abuse because they represented a challenge to the male ego – they were better than the male politicians that they replaced.
Male politicians never get asked about their reproductive wishes or history, male politicians seldom are questioned about what clothes they wear or how they can reconcile their gender with making decisions that can detrimentally affect their people. Female politicians always have more things they are expected to justify.
But why left female politicians seem to get it so much worse is an interesting question. My answer is that the political right are generally much nastier and less inhibited to display their nastiness, but perhaps that is an over simplification.
for some, sure. But it's how they express that that changes between a male and female PM.
I notice that you didn't provide examples of the speech or abuse that you think is not sexist. If you give three examples and their context, then we can see if your theory is correct.
I think it is
Statements like "she's just a pretty communist", remarks referring to her teeth, "ding dong the witch is gone"the prevalence of the "C" word referring to Ardern on social media.
I have never known such hatred and frightening vitriol against any other leader, and I do think misogyny is rising, particularly against any woman who raises her head above the parapet.We live in a climate when even the existence of women as a distinct sex based class is under threat.
These are not good times for women
I agree with those particular comments as being misogynistic. And I am not trying to say none of it is misogynistic. But that it is easy to conflate nasty vile statements with misogynistic ones.
For me, comments that reflect hatred or dislike of Jacinda because of her gender are clearly misogynistic. However, comments that are based on dislike because of things people perceive she is responsible for, probably are not.
I agree that there certainly is a nasty side of society showing itself at the moment. I think a lot of that has been due to too much pandering of groups that subjugate women.
I am very happy to see the court action against Gloriavale leadership at the moment, who are misogynistic in the extreme. I think that is long overdue. We shouldn't be tolerating groups treating women in that way due to the message it sends to society generally.
It's often hard to draw a specific line, between general abusive comments and misogyny.
There seems to be no doubt, that women politicians (and women in the public arena in general) 'attract' more abusive comments – both in quantity and vileness – than their male counterparts.
In itself, that can be a form of misogyny. And, the volume of abuse has a logarithmic multiplying factor (it's much easier to dismiss 2 comments as being random nutters who don't share the same planet as the rest of us, but 2,000 are much more worrying)
The type of abuse is also worrying, as is the (apparent) ineffectiveness of our policing/courts over direct and specific threats. They seem to be being treated as keyboard warriors who won't take action – but a publicly-made threat to kill or commit some other offence, should be treated very seriously. And a court process operating months after the threat was made, is an absolutely ineffective deterrent.
However, commentators (including those on TS) should look at the log in their own eye first. How many abusive comments are directed at politicians rather than at their policies? How many nasty and dismissive nicknames are used for the politicians we consider to be the 'enemy' and/or the commentators who disagree with us? And, if we do (or condone) this, how can we then complain if bile is then directed against the politicians we support?
From Belladonna.
This is the crux
Just a simple yes/no question for you, tsmithfield: In your comments here, have you ever referred to the current leader of the opposition as "Christopher" or "Chris", i.e. sans surname? You know, in the same way that you've referred to our current Prime Minister as "Jacinda" four times in your comment @1, and nine times in your comment @7.
Food for thought?
https://www.theeagleonline.com/article/2020/10/opinion-calling-women-in-power-by-their-first-names-widens-the-gender-gap
https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2018/07/when-last-comes-first-gender-bias-names
Good point.
Sexism can be hiding in plain sight.
I agree that just using a first name for women politicians can be sexist – but the analysis isn't quite as straightforward as that.
There are elements of 'convenient shorthand' – picking the most unique name – while that wouldn't affect Jacinda Ardern – only one Jacinda, only one Ardern currently in NZ politics) – it does affect politicians like Winston Peters (widely known as 'Winston' – since there are lots of 'Peters' around. And, obviously affects Luxon – plenty of other politicians called 'Chris' including Hipkins – so a real route to confusion.
Politicians can also embrace the 'first name' option- as a way of enhancing their 'relatability' to the public (Winston Peters has certainly done this, and I think also Boris Johnson & arguably Jacinda Ardern).
I think you’ll find that plenty of very left commentators on TS, have referred to Ardern as ‘Jacinda’
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/122155920/why-are-some-politicians-known-by-their-first-name-others-by-their-surname
Prefer and try not to – comes down to whether the intent is to belittle, imho, with context a deciding factor. Might be a subconscious ‘tell’ in some cases.
I'll happily refer to Luxon as 'Luxfusion' – cLux cLux cLux![smiley smiley](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/regular_smile.png?x42494)
My preference is to refer to most politicians by their surname – though I will admit that I've not always been 100% successful. And probably have been least so with Winston Peters – how much of that is subtle denigration, and how much use of the most clearly identifying name – is open to interpretation.
I do, however, refuse to use derogatory nicknames – and think less of those who do.
Whereas I may choose to use derogatory nicknames and descriptors that I personally find apt. Piggy Muldoon springs to mind.
Presumably you wouldn't have much time for the motley crew who thought up and use "Jabcinda, Taxcinda and Vaxcinda" – even mentioning these three might raise the odd eyebrow.
https://www.facebook.com/nznpmwg/
Nope don't use them. Yes I have seen them (as a centrist, I keep informed of all sides of the political debate – rather than remaining cocooned in an left-wing echo chamber). Just as I've seen the TS equivalents for right wing politicians.
I have no patience for any of it, from any side of the political spectrum.
Choosing to use derogatory nicknames says more about you, and the quality of your discourse, than it does about the subjects.
In addition, any political point you may wish to make, will be immediately discounted (except, of course, by your fellow travellers), as you've announced your intention to demean rather than debate up front.
And, surprise, surprise, it's not your fellow travellers that you have to convince.
But you've not made comment about the outsized abuse JA and her little girl have faced from your friends on the right.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131038776/nine-out-of-10-hateful-posts-tracked-in-darkest-corners-of-the-internet-targeted-ardern–new-study
That is because you accept it for political purposes.
Should I have? It's the first time you've raised the issue.
As someone who clearly finds any verbal abuse of politicians unacceptable – I very clearly find it even more unacceptable to have abuse (let alone threats) directed at politicians families.
Tell me – did you approve of the song explicitly talking about raping Stephie Key – put out by your friends on the left?
I've made my position clear. Abuse and threats are not acceptable from any side of the political spectrum. Yours still seems to be 'it's OK if the left do it'
Yeah, typical aggressive centrist position. Defend what the lunatics from the right do and attack the left at all cost.
Neve is 5 years old and your friends have threatened her so mush so that the PM had to resign.
I do hope you are proud.
Typical compassionate left-wing attack response.
You are quite frankly sickening.
At least I am honest.
"Neve is 5 years old and your friends have threatened her so mush so that the PM had to resign."
OK. This is over the top. You have no evidence, *none* that this is true.
Either link to a reliable source, or withdraw and apologise.
Christ, you are wilfully blind. That's typical of the pretend centre…
Ah, yes. Called to produce evidence, you produce personal attacks instead.
Reaching a new low, even for you Muttonbird.
Again, to get it through your thick head…
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/jacinda-ardern-will-need-police-protection-after-standing-down-as-prime-minister-experts/PDINQ5PFQBD77BG45IGR5MFXAE/
Not one word about Neve or the rest of Ardern's family in that article.
But plenty about the attacks that (predominantly) men make against women politicians. That includes you, Muttonbird.
You are part of the problem, here; not part of the solution.
[Stepping into to stop this escalating (including at a later date). Take a day off to cool down. Back on Weds morning. I know it can be hqrd, but please don’t stoop to the personalised comments having a go at a commenter. – weka]
mod note.
Yawn. There's only one person here apologising for attacks on politicians and their families.
It ain't me.
[Stepping into to stop this escalating (including at a later date). Take a day off to cool down. Back on Weds morning. We are increasingly intolerant of personal attacks going into election year, and you’ve been told this many times already. Don’t be surprised if you find yourself with a long ban at some point – weka]
mod note.
Exactly. You're not apologising for attacks. You're carrying them out.
As I said. You are part of the problem. Not part of the solution.
Can't be bothered wasting any more of my time on an unapologetic misogynist.
Good point Muttonbird. Belladonna's urgent universal condemnation of verbal abuse of politicians might be genuine, but that particular respectful centrist seems unable to discern either quantitative or qualitative differences in the political abuse emanating from current supporters of right versus left political ideologies.
Instead of facts, they clutch at whataboutism anecdotes. It's as if their very 'centrism' conveniently blinds them to obvious differences, and I can’t help wondering why that might be.
% of female MPs by party: Grn 70%, Lab 58%, MP 50%, NAct 34%
An obvious political left-to-right trend (apologies for any errors).
“Relentless“!
Won't comment further on the 'quality' of your discourse in this "left-wing echo chamber". As a proud centrist, you'll no doubt have levelled critiques of 'echo chamber' discourse in right-whinge blogs – carry on.
It's unsurprising and unimportant that you will immediately discount any political points I make. I don't have to convince anyone – do you?
As a centrist, if you (not you personally, but the left in general) want me to vote for you – then yes, you do have to convince me.
People who construct intelligent, informative arguments (as you in general do) are much more likely to achieve this goal. People who resort to juvenile abuse of opponents, much less so.
Otherwise, I'll leave you to your happy little echo chamber….
Let us all bow down to the arrogant Belladonna and beg for her vote.
It's becoming increasingly difficult to determine when you're talking down to me, and when you're talking down to "the left in general."
Your centrist charity knows no bounds – thank you![laugh laugh](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/teeth_smile.png?x42494)
I may be completely wrong but I believe many of these creeps feel they have been given a licence to show their rude, crude, misogynistic, obnoxious selves by copying the behaviour of that vile orange guy from the U.S.A.
That wouldn't explain the same behaviour from before that creep became influential, but I certainly think much of todays degenerate attitudes have resurfaced because they no longer have any sense of shame in showing their true selves. They're just copying his example.
You are completely right. They haven't the brains for rational thinking and that opens the way for the Trumps of this world to drag them down ever deepening rabbit holes.
Keep digging.
So, what part of what I am saying do you disagree with and why?
Does it matter if a few of the keyboard warrior, gutless shit bags haven't technically crossed the line into misogyny??
It's fine to disagree with policies but anyone who personalises in the way these scumbags have are crossing a line.
I totally agree with that. The people who say this sort of stuff usually would only do it behind the anonymity of their keyboards.
You really think that.
They are plenty vocal elsewhere and many have no compunction at all about letting you know their insulting thoughts verbally. From the signs on the protests to the abuse shouted to every day discussions they are there. Suggesting they are just keyboard warriors is to severely minimise them and their behaviour. I hear this stuff pretty much daily.
Since the PM resigned it has been quite pleasant to be honest to not hear it / have to challenge it (past the initial chorus of claiming credit for her resignation the usual culprits in my life have gone silent).
https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131031562/chris-hipkins-thinks-he-can-lead-labour-to-victory-in-the-election–and-friends-say-he-can-do-it
Shot Chippie should hire Vance as his public relations manager.
I find myself liking the guy and thinking maybe act and National arnt a shoe in now.
Hard to bet a likable guy that's gonna fight you in the gutter if needed
Agree, a very good article, designed to appeal to the centrist voters (the group Labour need to target for October 2023).
Trying not to think the fix was in but it sure felt like stuff and others where trying to influence labour in the short window after Ardern stood down,
Worth the read
Russian photojournalist Dmitry Beliakov on Poots' war propaganda.
The state-run war-supporting outreach program bears all the hallmarks of a Soviet method. Mobilization cures drug addiction and alcoholism: either get high, or go and fight for the Fatherland. Solve your apartment issue: become a soldier and leave behind those annoying relatives or neighbors in the communal flat. Volunteer now! Look after yourself and your family through benefits from the State, free medical treatment for yourself and family, veteran combat status – in short, the respect of the surrounding tribes!
Russians are bombarded with propaganda from all sides, brow-beaten into supporting the war. Churches pray for Russian troops fighting the world evil. In schools, children are asked to write letters to hero-soldiers who protect Russia from NATO. State enterprises hold patriotic rallies and organize voluntary fundraising for the operation on denazification of the Ukraine. Federal TV channels are full of propaganda hits performed by Russian pop stars of varying calibers. Commercials by private military companies fighting in Ukraine stream solicitations to apply; others to sign a contract with the Russian army.
Clumsy agitation videos are shot with third-rate actors shared with the most mediocre social advertising (respect your elders, wash your hands before eating, get the flu vaccine now!), or play in provincial theatres. Scripts are banal, though sometimes unbelievable. For example:
[…]
At the very end of the music video you can see a fragment of one of the most sinister appeals of Russia president, specially integrated into the clip, where shining with anger Putin threatens a nuclear strike in order to save Russia from the aggressors and at the same time admits that it would be a catastrophe for all mankind, for the whole world, but immediately resorts to a clumsy argument, saying that why a world without Russia is needed?
Things must be bad for Putin, yet the ridiculous limericks written by his butt-injured lackey are not as vulgar as the daily killing of Ukrainian civilians.
https://www.norwich.edu/news/voices-from-the-hill/peace-and-war/4027-the-aesthetics-of-russias-official-militarism?
Now living in Vermont, he has certainly carved out a reliable career working for the western press.Easy coin
I was interested in this article from the Economist
Available online if you have an account
If you don't there's a precis from Telegram
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/29984
Has Poots managed to turn the Economist?
Yeah, he should have stayed put and been murdered.
/
https://vtdigger.org/2022/11/07/i-am-alive-russian-photojournalist-dmitri-beliakov-lands-in-vermont/
He knows which side his bread is buttered on , he's a very able propagandist himself
If the 22.74810RUB party says so.
You lost me there Joe, you're so deep into some rabbit hole I can't follow
22.74810RUB = $0.51NZ
This accusation fits you better.
Every atrocity is denied by you.
Every crime is justified by you
Every critic of the Putin regime is attacked by you.
It seems that Tucker Carlson (and no doubt a few other far right propagandists) are to be spared from Putin's nuclear genocide.
Maybe you too Francesca, will be 'embraced' as one of the far right propagandists promised to be spared from Russia's threatened global holocaust
[Although Francesca’s comment @ 5.1.1.1 was pretty petty poor yours added nothing but a personal attack on another commenter, yet again. Last time (https://thestandard.org.nz/chinese-capital-in-the-pacific/#comment-1901165) it was one week and you were warned it would be doubled at the next time you were doing this. Take 2 weeks off and next one will be doubled again or even longer since it is Election Year – Incognito]
Educate yourself on the "First Use " policy of nuclear countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_first_use#Countries_pledging_no-first-use
Mod note
Banning you or others for personal attacks on other commenters is just that. Making it into something it is not such as “defending this [alleged] pro-war commentator” is first-order stupidity and complete denial of your own actions. This is where you and other zealots invariably go wrong here on TS – you never learn, you never adjust, you never improve, and you should be able to figure out why Mods respond in the same way, inevitably.
I have to agree with Francesca, that piece of writing IS propaganda, designed to sway emotion primarily, rather than set out lots of facts. The well-designed campaign from Ukraine to maintain outside support for their struggle (which I think as a good thing, by the way) is propaganda too (child refugees, valiant soldiers at the front). The definition of propaganda is an element of one-sidedness to the information presented to shore up a cause, and we should be clear-eyed about spin, wherever it comes from.
Where propaganda becomes dangerous and immoral is when it demonises opponents and spreads lies. The article Joe90 posts is a bit heavy-handed, but doesn't quite cross that line.
Francesca didn’t say that the article was propaganda – she may have implied it by but not in her comment per se – she said the writer was an able propagandist. But unlike Francesca you actually commented on the actual article rather than on only the writer of it.
https://scitechdaily.com/a-solution-to-excess-co2-new-study-proposes-fertilizing-the-ocean/
Wouldn't betting it'd improve the fishing too.
Goes engineering on a global scale, not so sure about this one
Further to my comments above, I think it is interesting to understand why Jacinda went from being almost universally loved to being seen as divisive and truly hated by many.
My comments below may be interpreted as victim-blaming. But that is not my intention. There is no justification for the sort of vitriol hurled at Jacinda. But it is interesting to see how this has arisen. It didn't just come out of a vacuum.
I think there is an extent to which Jacinda went away from being seen as compassionate and loving, as seen with the mosque shootings, or the "be kind" message, to being intentionally divisive herself. For instance, Jacinda, apparently quite coldly, and confidently, tells an interviewer that the aim is to set up a two-tier society.
Now, there is a clear greater good argument here. I think the vaccination rate was higher due to the government approach. And I know people in my own business who reluctantly got vaccinated because they wanted to keep their jobs. So, I think the effect has been to save lives. So, I think what the government did was probably the right thing.
But, looking at Jacinda's comments in this video from the perspective of someone who just lost their job due to their own personal choice about their own body, I can imagine they would feel really angry if they thought that Jacinda was deliberately and callously setting up conditions that would destroy their lives.
So, it seems to me that Jacinda may have gone off message to some extent, and this may have fueled the anger in the side of society who may have been directly or indirectly affected by the government decisions. And the comments below the video certainly suggest that.
This apparent contradiction may have led some to believe that Jacinda was wearing her compassionate side as a mask, and that underneath she was cold and calculating.
I certainly don't see it that way. I think there was an incredibly hard job for the government to do, and maintaining an even-handed approach was incredibly difficult. But, some sectors of society definitely did not see it that way.
Again you leave of the point about choice. It weakens your argument to a nullity really.
There was no force.
In agreeing that society may be vaccinated and unvaccinated the PM was stating a fact.
Again, I believe that Labour has/had misread the intellectual capacity of the electorate. They have thought that the electorate was wiser than it turned out to be. Again I mention the standard Comms canon about pitching to an 11 year audience.
Again I mention the conscientious objectors and those in the 1951 strike.
They knew the consequences of their actions, some were so anti war that they knew they would go to camps or be drafted as stretcher bearer etc. In 1951 the strikers knew what was happening and what would happen to them. They had a choice and exercised it. They were proud of the choices they made and accepted the consequences.
I am sure there were many who had serious grounds not to accept vaccinations and had been refusing vaccinations their whole lives. People with serious grounds are not the ones believing in trackers, magnets, big brother.
The ones who had the best of intentions and knowledge about Covid 19 but did not want the vaccine are the ones who abided by the other aspects such as masking and distancing.
Of course Labour misread the intellectual capacity of the electorate. The lunacy around so much of vaccinations and the whole coronavirus thing showed that. And the sad spectacle of the Brian Tāmaki mob.
The ironic thing is that online forums have the tripe which shows the same impaired individuals going crook about educational standards and telling us how schooling should be done.
To make it clear, I think the anti-vax movement that I think has largely been responsible for the crazy stuff, including the really nasty comments sent to Jacinda is batshit crazy.
I have no tolerance for there sort of conspiratorial nonsense. But, I think they would feed off the sort of video I pointed to as a justification for their hatred.
I am sure they did.
But there is actually no justification for hatred especially when you personify the actions of a Govt elected to govern it to one person.
This sort of feely stuff when there is no justification needs to be dealt with. I know some are not able to understand, who were overly influenced and we need to look at civics, choice, decision making, history to make sure it lessens the chance of it happening again.
Again, once/if the Police release the report on tracking the funding flows for occupation we will be given more idea of warning signals to look for in term of undue overseas influence etc.
Agreed. That is the sane way to see it. Unfortunately "sane" is not high in a lot of these people.
TBH – I don't think that it has much to do with actual policies – but rather that she's associated very strongly in people's minds with a 'disaster' (Covid, the lockdowns and the quarantine system) that people want to forget.
While the anti-vax movement despise her (for what they, no doubt, consider to be legitimate reasons), they're only a tiny minority of Kiwis – and it's a much larger group who have become anti-Ardern. Whether they are anti-Labour we'll wait to see.
The parallel has been made with Churchill – who went from the 'great leader' who saved Britain in WW2, to being turfed unceremoniously out of power at the next general election.
That's not to say that many of the policies which have been floated and enacted over the last couple of years haven't been divisive (because they have). And, while I believe that more could have been done to bring NZ with the Labour government in making the changes; making significant change is almost always going to incur divisiveness, and (I believe) Ardern and her government were keenly aware that they had a narrowing window of opportunity before 2023 – when their guaranteed majority was going to evaporate [even if the left wins in October, there is no way the Labour party will have a majority].
I do love how the right wing try to slip this crap through.
Do you have an alternative explanation for the rapid switch in popularity?
Covid is, and remains, one of the biggest global disasters of my lifetime.
Ardern did much to mitigate this in NZ. However, she remains strongly associated with the negative impacts (and be honest, lockdown was a serious negative impact) on Kiwis.
I do have an explanation. Generational progressive policy on Maori involvement in decision making on water. And generational progressive policy on how NZ Ag pays their way and stops polluting this jewel of a country.
In my opinion you slyly attempted to convince this forum that Jacinda Ardern is 'associated with disaster'.
Reality is in the eyes of almost everyone who is paying attention, globally and locally, she's associated with unprecedented compassionate response to disaster.
Stop trolling.
I don't see how your explanation results in dropping popularity for Ardern.
If your examples above are true – then Labour under Hipkins has no show of winning in October, unless he ditches both policies.
If Ardern had dropping popularity because of this – then Hipkins must as well.
I think that you must not be very familiar with opinions on the 'other side' of the political divide – because Ardern is very much not associated with compassionate response to Covid, for them.
I'm not saying either side is right. I am saying there is a big difference in perception.
There it is. I am always amused some people are too afraid to take a position on anything.
Centrist. Remember. Not a died-in-the-wool advocate for either side.
Awaiting your response to the actual points I made.
I will not bother with responding to your introduction of Chris Hipkins into the argument done seemingly to deflect from your initial outrageous claim.
Your fellow traveller Tinder has attempted something similar vis a vis Labour’s inaction on tax brackets.
You do realize that centrist and right wing people vote too….
And that they have opinions – even though not ones sanctioned by you.
If you refuse to take the perspectives of the 'other side' into account, you will perpetually be surprised when things don't go the way you believe they should.
Again there is this idea we should meet libertarian lunatics half way.
We should do no such thing.
The rapid switch in popularity, in my view, is because parts of the electorate got tired of a woman being PM, or in charge, or seeing a woman in charge. They saw her every day for a while and had plenty of time to get riled up at the 'unnatural order' so called, of things. That she was personable and genuine and popular because of these characteristics would have made them angrier. "the world should not be ruled by fluffy and caring'
I keep saying about my experience seeing all those 40s-50s men driving their utes/wagons down to the protest and saw some of their signs. But before that they saw the PM being logical, her Cabinet members being logical and also caring and thought, this is just so much B-S.
She lost popularity because she was a women and she was unable to hide anywhere as normal people (like us) expected her to lead.
Others can say it was this or that but using my age old trick of imagining a male being in charge instead of Jacinda Ardern this would not have lead to the vituperative anti male, derisory comments. I don't think we would have seen maddened people running after a male PM if he had visited a school.
The orange man inspired anti vaxx movement was far reaching, was glib and found fellowship in several countries such as Canada & NZ to play havoc in. He personally had an astoundingly bad attitude towards women and that would have been a reinforcement for bad attitudes here. .
Going from almost universally loved to being seen as divisive and truly hated by many…
I personally don't think she was almost universally loved, rather respected for her emotional openness and her refusal to shitmouth others. She knows how to communicate well and reach people with simple messaging. How that deteriorated..
Firstly, the choice to front up daily during the pandemic lockdowns meant a loss of novelty. An element of head girl exhorting us, yet again, to keep our uniforms tidy crept into our dynamics with her. We think of Winston Churchill as always spouting away to the British public during WW2, but in fact he only made 30 speeches in 5 years.
Secondly, going into lockdown 2 in Auckland, the government seemed to lose control of the narrative. Contrast the negative effect of this on the general perception of our government with that of Dan Andrews, Premier of Victoria.The Melbourne lockdowns were much worse than anyone experienced here. Yet Dan Andrews was swept back into power in recent state elections, despite that history.
I think in part this is because Ardern had become (by accident or design) an international figure, and was therefore targetted by right-wing media like Fox News. They pushed the idea of Dictatorship NZ, and, suckers as we are, many fell for the false mirror being held up to us. Not helped by those whinging about being shut out of NZ, despite being told to come home very clearly at the start of the pandemic. And not helped by government backtracks in response to individual cases, which made the whole quarantine system look poorly designed.
Thirdly, 3Waters legislation was a mistake, conflating Māori governance with a sensible water management policy that was already a hard sell, due to local body scepticism. It is true that this Labour government has acted strongly to lift the status of Māori in NZ, and we've come a long way in 2 and a bit years. Still, many feel they've been dragged rather than led. And the Labour Party did not educate the electorate about WHY, either before the election, or since. So Ardern and her government are seen widely (and perhaps fairly) as lacking transparency about this agenda.
Finally, mud sticks. Obama couldn't shake off birthist lies. Hilary Clinton eats babies. There's plenty of evidence that blatant lies like this repeated often enough just stick, and eventually are seen as true by some. For others, doubts about the probity of the target creep in. The Parliament anti-vax protest did huge harm to Ardern's image by parading their memes in front of the public day after day, and I think that was another nail in the coffin.
Nice to have the chance at the Standard to put me 2 cents in.
"Not helped by those whinging about being shut out of NZ, despite being told to come home very clearly at the start of the pandemic."
This is absolutely not true. At the beginning of the pandemic, Kiwis overseas were specifically told to 'shelter in place' if this was at all possible.
https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/new-zealanders-overseas-encouraged-shelter-place
One week (since the initial announcement) was entirely unrealistic for Kiwis to return to NZ – especially as there were few flights, and pretty close to zero tickets available.
Absolutely – the flights stopped. We had British friends here who were booked to return to the UK in late March 2020. They got back on a repatriation flight in June.
I remember the PM saying clearly in her announcement of the lockdown words to the effect of 'come home now if you can', with the implication that a ready return may not be feasible in the future. Borders were held open for a short while afterwards for citizens. I remember repatriation flights organised up to 3 weeks afterwards.
Why are you upset entry to NZ was controlled? Seems sensible to me, with no good vaccine initially available. We evaded the chaotic, destructive rolling lockdowns in the UK, Europe and Aussie.
A few of the exiles' stories tugged my heartstrings – those caught with no money and no visas. However, many fighting for places in quarantine seemed to be tantrummy and entitled, frankly.
At least we let people leave NZ if they wanted, unlike Australia, who refused people the right to leave.
I've provided the link to the actual advice given by the Ministry – and Peters as the Minister concerned, at the time.
If you have an alternative source, please link. Recollections (3 years later) of what someone might have said, aren't always the most reliable.
And, the fact remains, that for most people caught overseas – there was no possibility of return within the very short timeframe before the borders closed – there were no additional flights – and tickets were completely over-subscribed.
I'm not upset that entry to NZ was controlled, I'm concerned over the (frequently repeated) lie that all Kiwis were told to return home (and, by implication, had the opportunity to returm home) at the beginning of the pandemic.
I googled "Ardern come home now if you can" and found these links – hope they help with the recollections.
Imho, no Government is perfect (mistakes were made), nor can they work miracles. Still, as I recall, our Govt didn't do so badly, given the circumstances.
Your quotes from Ardern refer to Kiwis already inside NZ and/or those already in transit (or who would be in transit within the next few days).
It was not possible, and there was no possible mechanism, to get Kiwis who were overseas home before NZ went into lockdown on the 25th of March.
For those Kiwis, the official message (via Winston Peters and Foreign Affairs) was 'shelter in place'.
You, are of course, right – no government can work miracles. And it was physically impossible for all Kiwis who were overseas to return during that very short timeframe.
However, those people are (quite rightly) angry when they are subsequently told 'you had they chance to come home, and didn't take it'. They didn't have that opportunity.
I do think that there is a lot that we could learn about the whole MiQ process – what worked, what didn't, and how it could be improved if (God forbid) we actually had to do it again.
The link @7.3.1 outlines the why they didn't have this opportunity.
Is there a link showing 'the government' subsequently saying "you had they chance to come home, and didn't take it."?
Who were “those people” angry at?
Read the original comment for the context – and the very strong implication that 'you had the chance to come home and didn't take it'
Which has been shared on multiple platforms and by multiple commentators.
"There is a significant popular undercurrent that some people had the temerity to leave NZ, and are coming back when the going is tough."
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/126490880/covid-19-how-miq-has-become-a-political-weapon
The Grounded Kiwis court case made the point that a significant proportion of "those people" (i.e. Kiwis who were effectively unable to return to their own country) were angry with the Government over the operations of MiQ.
Which original comment contains that very strong implication?
I replied to your comment @7.3.1, which was clearly focussed on "the beginning of the pandemic" and its impact on the ability of Kiwis to travel internationally at that time.
Your comments @7.3.1.2.1 ("Recollections (3 years later)…") and @11:19 am ("on the 25th of March [2020]") also clearly refer to events at the beginning of the pandemic.
Only an unbiased respectful political centrist would then dredge up a quote from a Malpass critique of the MIQ regime published 18 months later (in Sept 2021) to support their original contention that someone/thing (our Government perhaps?) had “very strongly” implied “you had the chance to come home and didn’t take it.”
Perhaps some respectful political centrists are predisposed to believing that the left and right are as bad as each other. In my humble and biased opinion such a narrative serves the right well.
" In my humble and biased opinion such a narrative serves the right well."
Glad you're acknowledging your bias.
Why it might be so difficult to self-diagnose and/or acknowledge political bias is a real puzzle. I've never knowingly hidden my (fairly obvious) political bias here, lacking the inclination and necessary skills to do so, although The Standard is a good teacher.
And I'm pleased it's so easy to gladden you![wink wink](https://cdn2.thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/plugins/ark-wysiwyg-comment-editor/ckeditor/plugins/smiley/images/wink_smile.png?x42494)
Fair points, I apologise for my tone and assumptions, and stand corrected on fact.
Reading comments in the Guardian about Ardern's resignation, there's more than one kiwi/expat kiwi pushing the Fortress NZ 2 year tyrannical lockdown, worse than NKorea story.
Kiwis returning to NZ during the quarantine were wealthier or could access $$ for the flights. Those with less money simply had to stay where they were. I admit I had less patience with returnees' stories in the media due to that fact. The stories co-incided with a strong political push 'to open NZ, as it's throttling business, etc'. My sense of an element of whinge remains intact.
That should be 'planning to return' vs returning.
And by 'element', I mean a proportion of the stories, not all.
I would argue the mandates weren't a good thing, yes they increased the vaccination rate but they came at a heavy cost as it polarized a whole bunch of people both for and against. Basically long term damage to NZ societal fabric. That will take a very long time to heal possibly generational.
I don't believe that cost was worth the extra 5-10% it probably added to the vax rate.
I think you confuse these public health measures, ie. the mandates, with political decisions. A problem again introduced by the close personal involvement of the PM with public health messaging. I doubt the government would have followed a mandate path without extremely strong recommendation from the Director General of Health (Epidemic Preparedness Act 2006).
We saw in the UK how Boris Johnson's government repeatedly ignored Health Ministry and pandemic taskforce recommendations. Perhaps you would now be contributing sad tales of dead parents to the Pandemic Response Inquiry, instead of complaining about disruptions to those who chose to not be vaccinated, even though they knew well in advance they would lose their jobs.
It was divisive to introduce mandates, but 75% of people did support them. The division was inflamed by those making political capital and those fomenting outrage to get their social media numbers up.
Riffing on the mandates and thinking about the 75% support, this is pretty close to those who got vaccinated in response to the public health 'carrot'. The carrot campaign was extensive public health messaging that a 90-95% vaccination rate would keep hospital cases manageable and lower death rate, and it was run for months.
25% ignored the carrot, and the mandates became the 'stick' once community transmission appeared likely. I think the mistake was too much time lead-in time for mandates, so resistance had time to build and political agitators jumped in, including the international anti-vax movement.
Perhaps if the mandates had kicked in almost immediately for critical jobs, and the government had just coughed up 2 months' severance pay for the 'no jabbers'?
Other counties, for example Spain, ran very smooth vaccination campaigns with high compliance. On the other hand, they were watching people dying, a 'stick' you could not ignore.
For many employers, I imagine the mandates were a blessing. Who wants to run a business where everyone's getting Covid?
I agree with this summation of tWiggle rather than that of Cricklewood.
I think the so-called damage is overstated. The damage will be like the effects of the Springbok tour……you get yourself on the wrong side of history eventually, those supporting the Springboks, and those who were on the wrong side of history at the time, the marchers, but when it all washes over and time goes on it recedes.
Those of us who let it continue to be a feature of their lives need compassion to readjust and this can be hard just as it can be hard to readjust with any momentous/psyche threatening thing that happens to us. Separation /death/divorce/losing a job through restructuring are dealt with by some but others need a helping hand, counselling. But you come right or rather life piles on experiences that push those experiences back.
In the case of the occupation, I read somewhere that someone going there felt that there perhaps was a higher percentage of psychologically damaged people there.
The constant rehashing unless it is part of a conscious process of learning is hopeless. We will never learn from what happened, we will never be able to say dispassionately this was done then but now we have learned we will do it that way. Not to close the circle invalidates the experiences and keep them conscious and ticking over, brooding. This is no good for an individual and no good for the huge organism we call NZ.
That is why I made the point earlier on, Anne agreed, that we are overdue a report from the police on finding flows. We have excellent reports from the Disinformation project (ongoing) and from the Director of SIS on the threats but really need more information about these groups VFF, Destiny, the rt wingers on the grounds etc. The documentaries are excellent as well.
Just on the mandates some friends (nurses) did not actually mourn those who left pointing out that their actions had a possibility of affecting colleagues and patients alike. The younger nurses going through the Uni system have to have up to date vaccinations to start training and once trained to maintain them. There is a group where no such expectation/requirement exists. Other friends working in the PS were adamant they were working from home if non vaxxed were able to work.
Tsmith-Jacinda wasn't hated by "many". Where is the statistical support for this statement? She was still the most popular choice as PM when she resigned.
She was hated by loony VFF people because of her sensible and effective Covid policies. She was hated by hard right National and ACT voter's who couldn't stomach her policies, popularity and success.
The MSM, especially the Herald, should hang its head in shame for the way this was reported. The MSM was particularly culpable in its reporting of the highly effective border quarantine system. The tiny percentage of self-serving people who had problems (which was bound to happen) portrayed the system as a failure. This was all done to help big business who wanted the border open and bugger the deaths.
Agree with this.
Loony tunesAntivaxxers disliked her with a passion and some Aucklanders who felt they were long past wanting to play their part in eliminating/moderating the risk when the infections were at their highest in Auckland.Over the moon!
https://twitter.com/TheRealBuzz/status/1616600085441159168
Presumably we get reshuffle end of today.
next week.
And they're off.
https://twitter.com/DrLoupis/status/1616940882879447041
The replies! Don't know whether to laugh or cry.
It is more than obvious that for may of them, their marbles have long since rolled off to reside under the refrigerator.
On a local community page I follow, a chap spent most of yesterday insisting that Jacinda and Clarke were both crackheads, and that the entirety of the Police and the Judicial system were involved in a massive cover up on their behalf. No amount of evidence – Police statements, the ODT reporting of the court case that Clarke won etc was going to shift him.
When presented with any kind of dissenting view – his response was abuse and threats of violence.
Seems to be a common feature of cult behaviour.
I've just spent a wee while replying.
Listened to the video. Hipkins said we would 'chase up' those who have not been vaccinated. I don't think that the presumably American commenters understand the Kiwi usage of 'chase up', meaning 'to get in contact with a second or more time".
They seemed to hear ‘hunt down’……
What some pre-conditioned people may have heard is:
I will look for you, I will find you, and I will vaccinate you.
As opposed to "will be given the opportunity"….
Choice!
'Choice' in many ways, from the vernacular meaning of approval to meaning options, to meaning things like voting, which many of the commenters seemed to think we did not have, living as they think Kiwis do in a brainwashed autocracy where freedom of choice had to be defended by guns.
Do these folk not believe we are to have a free election here in October?
Initially, I thought this was entirely rhetorical, but then I realised that some (??) Kiwis have started to believe what others believe and the views those others express online, be they real people and/or bots, who have never lived or even been to NZ. And by linking & liking, and re-tweeting it spreads to friends & ‘friends’ and people you (think you) know and (can) trust, which creates an illusion and perception of ‘pretty truthful’. Also, it is often picked up & aided by MSM, and so on and so forth, giving it another ‘layer of legitimacy’.
Drowsy M – exactly. It amazes me there are all these deranged people who have been brainwashed lurking in communities everywhere. How do they manage the normal chores of daily living when their heads are in outer space somewhere?
Made the mistake out of curiosity of having a look at Kiwiblog a short while ago. Unbelievable. Two minutes of it was more than enough.
Deranged people who have been brainwashed lurking in communities everywhere?Some of them are doctors and lawyers.
Our farmer friends have an offal pit. It is a lot more savoury than Kiwiblog. At some time that site used to carry a slogan, something like "Fomenting happy mischief." It operates like a 24 hour a day night cart the driver happy to collect and spread as much crap as possible, present and misrepresent as much as possible.
New poster here so be gentle.
I don't know if this has bee brought up here – there is a lot of things to read. What does everyone think the cabinet reshuffle will look like? Hipkins will no doubt move pieces around but does anyone have an opinion on who will go up and who will go down?
That is yet to be decided. Meanwhile announced but eclipsed by the PM's announcement was the spokesperson reshuffle by Luxon. Some up, some down. Any thoughts about what happened there?
You can tell I'm still on holiday time – I'd missed it completely.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2023/01/19/christopher-luxon-reveals-nationals-election-year-reshuffle/
I don't think there is too much to read – it's a fairly minor re-shuffle on the face of it – although the rehab of Collins and Muller is interesting – possibly a sign that the factions are aligning behind Luxon as the best route to success for National in October.
A quick glance gives me the following points of commentary
Slim pickings for Luxon and a stale uninspiring gang that says opposition but not election. Just as well, ACT is looking after the policies.
And the leadership charisma…
Judith Collins: Nats attack dog. A strong indication of a dirty, no-holds-barred election campaign.
Nats seem to apply a recurrent strategy to their female MPs. When in government, hand them hot potato portfolios to do the dirty work, then replace them six months before the election, for the 'clean hand' look, leaving them to carry the karma.
In the case of Judith, the boys allow her out to maul the government when in opposition, by hook or by crook. But when in power, they try to muzzle her again. Not someone you'd trust behind your back once PM, as history shows.
Agree that Collins is an attack politician.
However, I'm unable to think of another National women MP who fits your characterization – and who has been replaced just before an election – thus making it a trend.
The two high-profile National MPs I can think of who have been demoted (Collins and Bennett) had rankings change as part of a leadership coup. I think it's a bit of a long shot to describe this as being replaced "six months before the election, for the 'clean hand' look, leaving them to carry the karma."
Others, like Kuriger – have hardly been prominent enough to be described as doing the dirty work (and her demotion is entirely her own doing)
There's a possibility that Ministers who have announced their retirements will go down or even out. Ardern herself has an obvious set of portfolios to move to Hipkins, and clearly Hipkins' portfolios needing shifting.
Robertson has been confirmed as continuing as Minister of Finance – not sure if he will retain his other ministerial portfolios e.g. sport, but there's no real reason for him not to unless he wants less on his plate or is getting other big portfolios (acting Leader of the House and Minister of Public Service until the reshuffle).
Jan Tinetti as Minister of Education is obvious. Stuart Nash has been announced as acting Minister of Police – could see him retaining it.
Upwards could be Dr Deborah Russell, Barbara Edmonds, Dr Duncan Webb and Camilla Belich.
I know it is a wee while away – but who do we think will be the new MP for Mt Albert? I would put a dollar or two on Helen White MP. She lives in the Electorate and has been the assigned MP for Auckland Central – which was the role Jacinda had before she came to Mt Albert.
Helen is very cap[able – she is a lawyer and specialised in representing people in work disputes. She has maintained a good electorate organisation in Auckland Central.
Would make a lot of sense for it to be someone who is already an MP living in the electorate.
I have a lot of time for Helen White. And she's definitely someone who has put the hard-yards in campaigning under thankless conditions over several elections. She's not exactly shone in the House or Government over the last 3 years (although, to be fair, she's had little opportunity as a backbencher)
If she does shift to Mt Albert – what impact do you think it would have on the electorate in Auckland Central?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auckland_Central_(New_Zealand_electorate)#Election_results
Swarbrick has been a game-changer in that electorate for the Greens – and has the reputation of being a very good local MP. She may well have the strength to hold off all challengers.
But the 2020 results (which, aren't anything like the usual picture) were Greens: 12,631; Labour: 11,563; National: 9,775. This in an election which sent National to historic lows. That's not a comfortable margin for Swarbrick.
And, remembering that this was the electorate that Nikki Kaye held from the strong challenge of Jacinda Ardern, within very recent memory.
Yeah, but the solution to that voting situation is for Labour voters to vote Green.
Not necessarily. The Greens have got their 5% plus – even when their Co-leader committed political suicide just before an election. The Greens ran Auckland Central like a by-election last time – there were people from all over the country working there – a friend of mine from Riccarton spent 4 weeks campaigning in Auckland Central. That is not going to be sustainable in the long term.
If the Greens can't get 5% overall, they should not be heavying Labour people in Auckland Central to vote Green in the electorate.
I meant the solution to Nat potentially winning the electorate due to vote splitting.
I agree that it's a solution – and one that's historically worked well for ACT in Epsom.
However, I'm not seeing any indication that Labour are prepared to give Swarbrick the nod (even unofficially) – and, indeed Helen White fought her to the wire in 2020.
I don't see a lot of evidence of tactical voting favouring the Greens (though plenty the other way around – people party-voting Green, but voting Labour for the candidate).
That's a tricky one.
On the one hand – you can see the need for new ministers (who will be hopefully staying on after October 23) to gain the ministerial experience they'll need to hit the ground running.
On the other hand, Labour won't want to be exposed to any rookie Ministerial mistakes.
Perhaps lots of associates – taking an increasing amount of the load throughout the year?
Good points. No need really to move aside those who are performing well. Associates are able to share the load and learn at the same time.
Big wahabi energy.
.
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1616359294538072069
That is the same line as Muslims. Eternal life with others in hereafter?
All the "pie in the sky when you die" bunch do that.
So depressing for JA and her family. Protection in perpetuity because anti-vaxxers and their stablemates NACT voters are too dangerous.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/131034202/jacinda-ardern-will-need-more-ongoing-protection-than-any-pm-in-nzs-history–expert
Aww, poor babies had to wheel their stuff … for like one hour up a massive hill...and then they had a cry to mum.
/
https://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/300789699/teens-hitchhiked-to-raglan-festival-after-4hour-shuttle-delays-a-mum-calls-for-refunds