The Flag will make us rich

Written By: - Date published: 12:21 pm, August 6th, 2015 - 66 comments
Categories: john key, making shit up, Minister for International Embarrassment, spin, the praiseworthy and the pitiful, you couldn't make this shit up - Tags:

John Key flag

From the you have to be joking file, John Key thinks that the new flag will make us rich.

As reported on stuff:

People say it will cost $26 million, it will cost less than that,” he said.

He argued that the flag would make New Zealand money in the long term.

“How much is it worth ultimately if we change our flag and people recognise and buy our products?

“Basically in the end it’s gonna be worth billions over time.”

If he is right maybe we should get two national flags. Or three. Or change it every year.

Snake oil salesman strikes again.

66 comments on “The Flag will make us rich”

  1. Paul 1

    More FM and Stuff doing the PM’s job for him and distracting from the real issues.
    I wonder if they asked him about Fonterra, Saudi Arabia, Auckland housing, etc

  2. mac1 2

    Get the pinpoint accuracy of Key’s predictive language-,’basically’, ‘in the end’, ‘over time’, ‘ultimately’.

    As if I, or he, is going to be around to call bullshit on that one.

    • heather tanguay 2.1

      This is complete nonsense, this is just too much
      The community has had enough of this complete rubbish

  3. Colonial Viper 3

    Just another corporate mantra over another corporate logo

    • Paul 3.1

      It is in an interview like this you really see what a shallow person Key is.
      His ‘aspiration’ for this country just seems for us to be a famous brand.
      The mediocrity of his vision is laid bare.

      • dukeofurl 3.1.1

        Its worse than that, this is just his latest ‘shallow thoughts’

        At first the new flag was to make us all ‘patriotic flag wavers’ but those lines havent worked.

  4. Detrie 4

    Yes, it seems every comment he ever makes in public or in parliament on anything is carefully qualified.

    • Hanswurst 4.1

      I don’t think it’s so much that it’s carefully qualified as that he just instinctively sprays qualifiers around when giving assurances. in fact it’s laid on so thick that it may well be a nervous habit, since “ultimately”, “in the end” and “over time” all express basiically the same thing.

  5. maui 5

    Phew, that’s lucky if it’s now worth billions, then lets cut to the chase and make sure we maximise our global reach on the flagpole.

    http://s1134.photobucket.com/user/TheSirPeter/media/nzlogosquiz.png.html

  6. Tricledrown 6

    The new New Zealand flag Keystyle.
    A pair of pants on fire on a flagpole.

  7. tc 7

    A depiction of the kiwi being rogered by large corporates, Uncle Sam and China would be an accurate reflection of Keys legacy

  8. McFlock 8

    Lol

    Economics has been called the “dismal science”, knowing the price of everything and the value of nothing. Key just bullshits the value of anything and ignores the price of everything.

  9. yay billions – now WE can buy China /sarc

  10. Bob 10

    While it does sound like a ridiculous statement to make, our Milk, Cheese, Lamb, Wool, Honey (Manuka), Wine, Kiwifruit, Apple and plenty of other exports have a great name globally, having a flag that we can put onto these products with works as an instant visual cue that these are NZ made products ‘could’ be a great way of identifying these products globally.
    Based on the evidence of the completely unscientific Seven Sharp Times Square experiment, we currently do not have a key (excuse the term) visual identifier that sets us apart from Australia: http://tvnz.co.nz/seven-sharp/australia-jack-tame-experiments-nz-flag-in-times-square-video-6350987

    Whether a change of flag would help, only time will tell (and claiming it would be worth Billions over time is a hell of a stretch), but it certainly shouldn’t be completely dismissed either.

    • tc 10.1

      So what’s wrong with ‘MADE IN NEW ZEALAND’ cheap, effective and unambiguous.

      wasn’t this one of the ‘100% Pure NZ’s’ objectives ?

      • Bob 10.1.1

        Yes, MADE IN NEW ZEALAND is cheap and reasonably effective, but visual cues are recognised much faster/easier by the human eye, and they have the added bonus of not excluding those who are illiterate or who have reading disorders such as dyslexia.

        Why do you think Apple use a logo on the back of their products rather than the word “APPLE”.

        • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1.1.1

          🙄

          Some people (quaint, isn’t it) consider a country’s flag signifies something a little more than commerce.

          That’s one reason there’s already a commercial brand available.

          • Bob 10.1.1.1.1

            The NZ flag signifies and represents a hell of a lot more than commerce, but that isn’t what this post is about is it OAB?

            • One Anonymous Bloke 10.1.1.1.1.1

              having a flag that we can put onto these products with works as an instant visual cue that these are NZ made products

              We already have one, as per the link. The flag represents our national identity, not some marketing patter.

        • tc 10.1.1.2

          As I said wasn’t that what the 100% pure brand was all about, clear, consice and like the AB’s strip all black and had a good presence and immediate association with NZ.

          Visually very easily identifiable….whereas a new flag will take yonks before it’s got any immediate impact.

          you also assume this wonderful new flag will be so compelling that all the brand packaging designers will run toward it with open arms….think again.

          • Bob 10.1.1.2.1

            Correct, but the 100% Pure brand won’t be around forever, once a new marketing agency comes alone that brand is likely gone, which is why the PM did say (so eloquently) “Basically in the end it’s gonna be worth billions over time.”
            The ‘over time’ part is what you seem to have missed.

            “you also assume this wonderful new flag will be so compelling that all the brand packaging designers will run toward it with open arms….think again.”
            They ran to the 100% pure brand didn’t they?

        • dukeofurl 10.1.1.3

          The reason why Apple have a logo is because you cant copyright the word apple.

          There is some protection for ‘Apple computers’ but not as much as a logo itself.

          if the apple logo was so great why did they invent a new name like “iphone”

          Your reasoning is faulty

          • Bob 10.1.1.3.1

            They have copyrighted and fiercely protected the terms iPhone, iPad, iPod etc. why don’t they use those terms on the back of their products?

        • Tracey 10.1.1.4

          you know lots of companies use a silver fern in their branding already to do the same thing?

          • dukeofurl 10.1.1.4.1

            Thats true. Wines or food just say product of ‘ Wherever’, New Zealand.

            Im thinking meat uses the Silverfern Farms branding.

            Nothing for the overseas market makes much of the flag, just having a new flag wont change anything unless theres a billion dollar branding campaign to go with it.

          • Bob 10.1.1.4.2

            You know NZ Rugby own the rights to the Silver Fern don’t you? They could charge for that use at any point if they wanted too, so why would you open you brand to unnecessary risk?

        • meconism 10.1.1.5

          I don’t know, is it the same reason they stole the idea from the record company of the same name?

    • freedom 10.2

      If Americans’ knowledge of the world is some sort of benchmark we are in real trouble 😉

    • Hanswurst 10.3

      “It shouldn’t be completely dismissed” is a terrible argument. You’re supposed to use facts to back up your decisions, not make decisions haphazardly and use them to work out what the facts might be afterwards. What gets me is that our prime minister is apparently just dreaming up any old thing and using it to sell policy purely on the basis that it doesn’t sound massively implausible.

  11. CR 11

    Yeah we should just cut the patriotic sovereign nation state what do we stand for crap and issue flag bonds, sell them to the highest bidder on a 5 year contract. Our first new flag could be black with white letters in a white frame…AIG maybe.

  12. Sanctuary 12

    Sounds like he has been talking to the Warriors marketing department, they wear a new jersey every week.

  13. Tigger 13

    Imagine how much BP, Nike or Coca Cola would pay if we incorporated their logos on our flag? Or maybe we just make their logo our flag? McDonalds would pay big bucks for that. We can change the name of our country too to Big Mac or McChicken.

    • Paul 13.1

      It’s not below Key.

    • Clemgeopin 13.2

      “Imagine how much BP, Nike or Coca Cola would pay if we incorporated their logos on our flag?”

      What a splendid idea! Have a different corporate logo each month as our flag. Make the global corporates feverishly bid for the right. Private-Public partnership! We could even permanently incorporate a picture of Key and weasel side by side! See and hear the ching-ching millions, billions, trillions and may be even some brazilians our way! Oh, what joy!

  14. hoom 14

    26 Million is only the cost of the referendum & consultations.
    The actual cost of reprinting & manufacturing replacements for everything that has NZ flags/images of NZ flag on it currently will be much more.

  15. Smilin 15

    Just call it Blase faire to go with his Laissez faire austerity ridden ego centric greed and self gratification of how great he thinks he is

  16. Tombstone 16

    Once again Nats caught up having to explain themselves this time over the dirty rotten Saudi deal and out comes the flag debate with Stuff & More FM happy to do the puppet masters bidding.

    Key says its worth billions! Oh fuck off …. saying it will be worth billions doesn’t make it so & that’s the point that MSM seem to be missing here or willfully ignoring (take your pick). Simply repeating these ridiculous statements by Key doesn’t mean that any of it will actually come to fruition. It’s all verbal diarhea with hacks lining up to smother their front pages in it.

    Now how about the Saudi deal? And what about Auckland housing? Jean Jones closing the doors & unemployment on the rise? What’s happening with Talley’s & how about that $101b national debt? TPPA anyone?

    Get a grip MSM – start doing your jobs.

  17. Smilin 17

    We could have a kiwi rollin up a stokey with “Betta than burning the bush”on it

  18. Paul 18

    I nominate AIG’s logo as the flag for John Key’s new nation of ‘Absurdistan.*’ ( * from Metro)
    Bad enough not to settle claims fully with the people of Christchurch.
    Yet powerful enough to get their logo on the All Blacks jersey and force the players into an annual pilgrimage to Chicago.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/business/the-rebuild/10057122/Citys-insurance-aftershocks
    http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/news/national/christchurch-woman-launches-action-against-aig/
    http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/regional/256470/$9m-legal-bill-to-settle-quake-claims

  19. Charles 19

    If my brain is turned on, and I can never entirely be sure, he is sort of right. It’s bit like that style of management thinking that runs: When your business has reached a critical point of make-or-break, always go out and buy a new company car/fleet, new offices, etc etc. Magic then happens, and the virtual momentum of percieved success (as seen by your clients) results in additional orders and that pushes you over the line. And if it doesn’t, then at least you feel better, while your creditors suffer, which puts you in a better position to start another business… yay! He’d have to be sure something like the TPPA was signed, to back up the appearances – or just be a complete loon.

    Theoretically, everyone having to renew their stationery and paintwork etc would generate some “extra millions”, or maybe just millions of churn. Money would change hands, put it that way. But if that was something he believed in, by the end of next month he could also end child poverty, raise benefit levels, increase minimum wage/introduce living wage – lots of good direct-action stuff – all under the title of good investments. But this the Nats, afterall.

    • tc 19.1

      yes like a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

    • Tracey 19.2

      When you have fucked up the economy as these guys have, you need a shiny new brand to con the punters into thinking they are buying something different…

      ssdd

    • Melanie Scott 19.3

      Yes you’ve got it. Can’t remember the book that made me understand that, was it ‘Rogueconomics’, ‘The Death of Money’, ‘Griftopia’ or one about the fallacy of exponential economic growth (can’t remember the name). GDP can be a false indicator of the health of an economy, it could actually be an indicator that things are really far from good, just lots of money changing hands, not ‘healthy economic activity’ at all. A bit like moving the deck chairs on the Titanic.

  20. Akldnut 20

    Ad in foreign newspapers next week…….
    FOR SALE – 1X brand new (New Zealand) Flag
    Start Price : $100,000,000
    No reserve>>>>>>>>>>>>
    Accept all major credit cards, BANK transfers welcome.
    contact: https://www.national.org.nz/

  21. I’m thinking kinda like a cross between a ponytail and a wind sock. But with ferns on it.

  22. Mrs Brillo 22

    Insisting on a new flag to “promote” us reminds me of the old Cockney barrow boys’ saying:
    “When business is bad, paint the cart.”

  23. Tanz 23

    Read in the Herald today that Key wants to encourage Chinese investors to buy in the regions so that people’s homes will be worth more. FFS, does he not care about the fact that a basic home in Auckland costs $500,000 grand more than it did five years ago? So now first home buyers won’t even have the back-up of the regions to buy in. Shows where Key’s priorities lie, and it sure the heck ain’t with home-grown Kiwis.

    • Tracey 23.1

      He made his money in a career of imaginary stuff… currency trading, raising people’s house values is meaningless unless they are selling and buying into a different market. Smokes and Mirrors baby.

      • dukeofurl 23.1.1

        As we now know the currency trading out of London where Key was based was rigged.
        They did the same with the interest rates- they are just fractions of cents but it means huge amounts in markets counted in trillions over time.

    • dukeofurl 23.2

      Doesnt even make sense, as Key is saying Chinese investors ARENT pushing up prices in Auckland, but they ARE supposed to push up prices in provincial areas ?

      if he did say this its complete and contradictory rubbish, then again……

      • Chooky 23.2.1

        he is very shallow you know…doesnt worry about consistency …just being glib…and getting away with things…especially selling off the countries assets

  24. CnrJoe 24

    From the twitter
    To be fair to the PM, he is thinking in epochal terms: “Basically in the end it’s gonna be worth billions over time.” Micheal Wood

    True, one cent a year could really accrue in geological time. I’m sorry I doubted the PM now.
    G.Tiso

  25. Pat 25

    awesome….i’ll sell the cows and the farm and buy flags!!!!

  26. Clemgeopin 26

    In the end, we are all dead!

  27. Irascible 27

    Key and his Cabinet of Cronies are living on Planet Key if they think a new flag is both a legacy and worth billions of $$ to the country. Total speculator bumpf.

  28. Michael 28

    The man’s deluded. No wonder he’s our leader.

  29. keyman 29

    this must be the something special flag by key

  30. Stuart Munro 30

    They’re worth billions – fine – lets pay Key’s salary in flags.

  31. Thinkerr 31

    Are the Australians changing their flag too, then?

  32. ropata 32

    A goatse flag with the sun shining out of Johnny Keyster’s ass

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    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    7 days ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    7 days ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    1 week ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    1 week ago
  • New Fisk
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s failure
    When National was in government and fucking over the poor for the benefit of the rich, foodbanks were a growth industry. And now Labour is in charge, nothing has changed: A huge demand for emergency food parcels means the Auckland City Mission is struggling to prepare for the impending arrival ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Ardern attempts to vaccinate Clarke Gayford live on television to prove that it’s safe
    Gayford, pictured here on The Project, before things got wildly out of control. A bold public relations move by the Government to encourage parents to vaccinate their children has gone horribly wrong. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern appeared on tonight’s episode of Three’s The Project, where the plan was for her ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Has Mr. Whippy gone too far by parking on our front lawns?
    Mr. Whippy’s business model has driven it down a dark road of intimidation. Residents in major centres around the country are becoming disgruntled by the increasingly aggressive actions of purported ice cream company Mr. Whippy, who have taken to parking on people’s front lawns and doorsteps in a desperate attempt ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Cleaning up the water
    Today the government released its Action Plan for Healthy Waterways, aimed at cleaning up our lakes and rivers. Its actually quite good. There will be protection for wetlands, better standards for swimming spots, a requirement for continuous improvement, and better standards for wastewater and stormwater. But most importantly, there's a ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Fronting up
    Today I appeared before the Environment Committee to give an oral submission on the Zero Carbon Bill. Over 1,500 people have asked to appear in person, so they've divided into subcommittees and are off touring the country, giving people a five minute slot each. The other submitters were a mixed ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear
    Anti-fluoride activists have some wealthy backers – they are erecting billboards misrepresenting the Canadian study on many New Zealand cities – and local authorities are ordering their removal because of their scaremongering. Many New Zealanders ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Democracy – I Don’t Think So
    So, those who “know best” have again done their worst. While constantly claiming to be the guardians of democracy and the constitution, and respecters of the 2016 referendum result, diehard Remainers (who have never brought themselves to believe that their advice could have been rejected) have striven might and main ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Government says it will now build just one really nice home
    Following publication of this article, the Ministry has requested it to be noted that this supplied image is not necessarily representative of what the final house will look like, and it “probably won’t be that nice.” As part of today’s long-anticipated reset of the Government’s flagship KiwiBuild policy, Housing Minister ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Imperialism and your cup of coffee
    Over the next week or two we will be running three synopses of parts of the opening chapter of John Smith’s Imperialism in the 21st Century (New York, Monthly Review Press, 2016).  The synopsis and commentary below is written by Phil Duncan. Marx began Capital not with a sweeping historical ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Still juking the stats
    The State Services Commission and Ombudsman have released another batch of OIA statistics, covering the last six months. Request volumes are up, and the core public service is generally handling them within the legal timeframe, though this may be because they've learned to extend rather than just ignore things. And ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Hard News: Time for a New Deal: 25 years on
    In 1994, I was editing an ambitious street mag called Planet, from a fabled office at at 309 Karangahape Road. The thirteenth issue of the magazine was published in the winter of that year and its cover embodied a particularly ambitious goal: the end of cannabis prohibition.I wanted to do ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Not impressed
    KiwiBuild was one of the Ardern government's core policies. The government would end the housing crisis and make housing affordable again by building 100,000 new homes. Of course, it didn't work out like that: targets weren't met, the houses they did build were in the wrong place, and the whole ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Solar beats coal
    As the climate crisis escalates, it is now obvious that we need to radically decarbonise our economy. The good news is that its looking easy and profitable for the energy sector. Wind is already cheaper than fossil fuels, and now solar is too:The levellised cost of solar PV has fallen ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • A Step Too Far.
    A Crown Asset? For reasons relating to its own political convenience, the Crown pretends to believe that “No one owns the water.” To say otherwise would re-vivify the promises contained in the Treaty of Waitangi – most particularly those pertaining to the power of the chiefs and their proprietary rights ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Where Money Comes From
    Most people would say, no doubt, that they have a pretty good idea of what money is. They live with the reality of money every day. It is what is needed to buy the necessities of life and to maintain a decent standard of living. You get money, they would ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    2 weeks ago
  • Banned by the Green Party leadership: Jill Abigail on women’s rights and trans rights
    The article below was an opinion piece that appeared in the Spring 2019 issue of Te Awa (the NZ Green Party’s newsletter) and on the Greens website.  In keeping with their policy of hostility to women defending women’s right to female-only spaces, Green bureaucrats have since removed the opinion piece.  ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • The fallacy of the proximity argument.
    Longer term readers may remember my complaining that, as a political scientist, it is burdensome to have non-political scientists wanting to engage me about politics. No layperson would think to approach an astrophysicist and lecture him/her on the finer details of quarks and black holes, but everybody with an opinion ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    2 weeks ago
  • Where We Stood: Chris Trotter Replies To Stevan Eldred-Grigg.
    Joining The Fight: Stevan Eldred-Grigg's argument for New Zealand staying out of the Second World War fails not only on the hard-headed grounds of preserving the country’s strategic and economic interests; and not just on the soft-hearted grounds of duty and loyalty to the nation that had given New Zealand ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Universities back the climate strike
    On September 27, School Strike 4 Climate will be striking for a future to pressure the government for meaningful climate action. This time, they've asked adults to join them. And now, Lincoln University and Victoria University of Wellington have signed on:Victoria University of Wellington has joined Lincoln University in endorsing ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Another constitutional outrage
    Another day, another constitutional outrage in the UK. This time, the government is saying that if parliament passes a law to stop Brexit before being prorogued, they may just ignore it:A senior cabinet minister has suggested Boris Johnson could defy legislation to prevent a no-deal Brexit if it is forced ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Ending dairy in Canterbury
    Environment Canterbury has finally proposed nitrogen limits to stop dairy farmers from poisoning Christchurch's water supply. And naturally, farmers are whining about it:A proposed move by Environment Canterbury (ECan) to protect Christchurch's drinking water by setting tough – some would say, draconian – nitrate reductions in the decades ahead and ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago
  • Is National the party of climate arson?
    The Zero Carbon Bill is currently before select committee. While its targets are weak, its a generally sensible bill that promises to establish a long-term framework to guide emissions reductions. But National hasn't made up its mind on whether it will support it - and according to Andrea Vance in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 weeks ago

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