Who leaked the Fair Pay Cabinet Paper?

33 comments on “Who leaked the Fair Pay Cabinet Paper? ”

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1. observer 1

   7 December 2023 at 12:44 pm

   Simon O'Connor had a lot of friends in the National Party …
2. Darien Fenton 2

   7 December 2023 at 1:14 pm

   She will undoubtedly suffer more mishaps because she is totally ill-equipped to handle this portfolio. Apart from laws, there's all those regulations around health & safety and other workplace rights, which her leader is hell bent on getting rid of. The CTU has called her out on her claim on RNZ they were "consulted" about FPAs. https://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/on-air/heather-du-plessis-allan-drive/audio/richard-wagstaff-ctu-president-accuses-workplace-relations-minister-brooke-van-velden-of-sharing-false-information/
3. James Simpson 3

   7 December 2023 at 1:22 pm

   I am not sure how she would suffer damage.

   This was a central policy of both ACT and National. They would only suffer damage if they had broken their promise to repeal it.
   • Corey 3.1

     8 December 2023 at 11:06 am

     It's not about the policy it's about the lying about consultation and advice.

     Dyed in the wool Leftys may not have liked her but a lot of people in the civil service, media and public liked her, as much as they like Chloe Swarbrick, shocking but yes she is like a center right Chloe, a young future leader of an anti status quo party who won a shock electorate win in her second term.

     when placed against people like Chloe Swarbrick on this Free speech debate on breakfast Brook comes accross as, calm reasonable, moderate and consistent where as Chloe comes off as an erratic gaslighting bully huffing and puffing, interrupting constantly and accusing Brooke's support of free speech of basically supporting killing trans people. Insane.

     People tend to like the person arguing free speech in most arguments these days whatever side they are on.

     Now a lot of people in parliament, media and the public who are paying attention know she'll lie straight to your face.

     That's definitely taken the shine off her and she won't get as easy a pass with media ir civil serveants
     • Robert Guyton 3.1.1

       8 December 2023 at 11:29 am

       What you called, "calm reasonable, moderate and consistent" from Brooke, Chloe described as “cringy revisionist history” and said she wouldn’t let that stand. Your hyperbolic descriptions of Chloe's manner are utter tosh, imo, and reflective of something personal you must feel about her. At around 6 minutes, Brooke stumbles when she says, “Everybody has a right to an opinion, even when it is harmful…” She tried to self-correct, but it was out there. How do you feel about that reveal, Corey?

       Brooke seemed pedestrian in her understanding of the issues Chloe articulated and stuck in an ideological backwater on this particular topic.
4. Chris 4

   7 December 2023 at 1:46 pm

   "What if it was not a Public Servant who leaked the paper but a political operative intent on causing damage to Act and to Van Velden."

   This marks the difference between this government and previous right-wing governments. What the current clowns are doing is abhorrent to many of their own. Luxon's misread almost everyone, including those who would otherwise be his supporters. When this particular group starts moving, together with the opposition we're already seeing, will be when real heat goes on Luxon.

   All of this on top of having to deal with Peters and Seymour.
   • James Simpson 4.1

     7 December 2023 at 4:52 pm

     Can you clarify your comment.

     Its abhorrent to those of us on the left. But this was a central plank of their campaign and something Labour and the Greens warned the electorate would happen if National was elected.

     Why do you think people who voted for this less than two months ago would now find this a bad thing?
     • Craig H 4.1.1

       7 December 2023 at 8:01 pm

       Personally, I think a lot of votes were to get rid of Labour, not because of anything particularly good about National's policy, so at least some of those will be upset about this.
     • Chris 4.1.2

       13 December 2023 at 2:23 pm

       There's also a feeling of unease with how this government's going about things generally, which is upsetting those who'd otherwise be supportive on specific issues. Rushing the repeal of the FPAs and other legislative changes "before Christmas", leaving no time for public input, is one example. Luxon's bullish 'we're getting things done' approach makes him look as if nothing's getting thought through. Some of the other issues, particularly the wholesale attacks on Te Reo and Maori generally, will spark outrage that will undoubtedly spill over into other areas where the response will be dissent of some kind. Hopefully this will continue.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/133439579/get-with-the-programme-or-get-out-disgruntled-public-officials-told
5. Descendant Of Smith 5

   7 December 2023 at 2:46 pm

   I suspect they are also going to have to learn quickly that there is a difference between spouting bullshit in the media and on Twitter and spouting bullshit in Parliament – even with the protection of privilege.
6. Barfly 6

   7 December 2023 at 5:35 pm

   Why is the hooha about who leaked the paper rather than a minister of the crown blatantly lying to cabinet?
   • Incognito 6.1

     7 December 2023 at 5:46 pm

     Nah, it was an honest mistake by an emotional junior staffer aged 31.
   • Jester 6.2

     7 December 2023 at 5:57 pm

     It sounds like Richard Wagstaff was actually the one lying.

     [Link required – Incognito]
     • Hanswurst 6.2.1

       7 December 2023 at 6:02 pm

       What, because he said that she had mentioned it? I think you're trolling and should be banned. The mods can go ahead and do that now, too, seeing as I've consulted with you on it.
       • Jester 6.2.1.1

         7 December 2023 at 11:58 pm

         On TV3 he originally stated "But Richard Wagstaff, the CTU President, said at "no point were we asked what were the pros and cons of FPAs"

         We were simply asked 'what are FPAs?'"

         Asked if that was proper consultation, van Velden said: "I don't think that's a true and accurate representation of that meeting."

         Fair Pay Agreements: Workplace Relations Minister Brooke van Velden defends decision to ignore leaked Treasury advice | Newshub

         Wagstaff now saying "CTU President Richard Wagstaff says van Velden never had a proper consultation on repealing Fair Pay Agreements."

         They obviously met and discussed but if you listen to the HDPA interview, Richard doesn't believe it was a consultation. She obviously thought the 30 minute meeting was.

         CTU President accuses Workplace Relations Minister of sharing false information (newstalkzb.co.nz)
         • observer 6.2.1.1.1

           8 December 2023 at 6:33 am

           I'll withdraw my accusation of lying (below), given the link you've provided.

           But I don't think you can say Wagstaff was lying either. We can't know exactly what was said in the room, but they clearly have different definitions of "consulting".

           e.g. the previous government had a meeting with Groundswell. There wasn’t much consulting involved, but the box was ticked, so they could say that it had happened.
           • Jester 6.2.1.1.1.1

             8 December 2023 at 7:39 am

             Its a case of he said / she said and the only thing that seems definite is that they did meet. She will see it as she is carrying out what she was voted in for.
     • Incognito 6.2.2

       7 December 2023 at 7:11 pm

       Mod note
     • observer 6.2.3

       7 December 2023 at 7:23 pm

       I Googled "Richard Wagstaff".

       First on Google News. Then on general Google, with specific times (e.g. last 24 hours). There was no evidence of your claim, not even an accusation by a political opponent.

       So now we know you are lying.
   • Hanswurst 6.3

     7 December 2023 at 5:58 pm

     Because everybody knows she blatantly lied to cabinet, whereas there are questions in people's minds over whether it was a civil servant or one of her cabinet colleagues who leaked it, and from which party they might have come, and the answers to those questions will make a difference to how damaging it is for the coalition government.

     I imagine the opposition will hammer her over it, and there will be bigger problems if she continues to behave like that.
   • Rodel 6.4

     7 December 2023 at 9:43 pm

     And why call thm 'porkies' .It souds too cute. They are 'lies ' or if it's thought necessary to be kind, perhaps the more moderate word 'untruth.' I prefer the word 'bullshit' when it comes to BVV (or any act mp)
7. Incognito 7

   7 December 2023 at 5:43 pm

   FYI, it's Brigitte Morten and Shane Te Pou
8. Sandra Le Cron 8

   7 December 2023 at 5:58 pm

   Brooke Van Velden handled this very well and with uncharacteristic humour.She will be one of the few stars in this triparti arrangement. A very smart woman.

   [You’re in Pre-Mod until you’ve acknowledged this note and given a sign of life as we know it. If nothing received by the end of the weekend, we might see you again after the NACTF Government has fully completed its 100-day plan – Incognito]
   • Patricia Bremner 8.1

     7 December 2023 at 6:08 pm

     SLC, Is that you Brooke?
     • Barfly 8.1.1

       7 December 2023 at 6:20 pm

       With SLC spouting non words like "mischiefness" the lack of intellect would suggest so.
       • Patricia Bremner 8.1.1.1

         7 December 2023 at 7:20 pm

         100% Should be DFTT lol but i could not resist.
   • Robert Guyton 8.2

     7 December 2023 at 6:48 pm

     Humour is "uncharacteristic" with Brooke?
   • Incognito 8.3

     7 December 2023 at 7:09 pm

     Mod note
   • Mike the Lefty 8.4

     8 December 2023 at 10:29 am

     We'll see how smart she is when she finds out that being in government is actually a lot of hard work, not a game of skittles.
9. Chess Player 9

   7 December 2023 at 7:53 pm

   Lots of speculation in this post.
10. Ghostwhowalks 10

    8 December 2023 at 9:05 am

    Since 'the paper' came from Brooke Van Veldens own ministerial office, it could also be a deliberate leak as red meat for the ACT party donors and such – who would love to see the unions leftists and officialdom all bothered

    Remember Van Velden previously worked in 'PR culture' at Matthew Hootons Excelium political management business.
11. Thinker 11

    8 December 2023 at 3:00 pm

    I doubt there was a class on backstabbing and undermining when BVV did her uni qualifications and she hasn't had enough life experience to meet those people along the way, I guess.

    Funny, though, how politicians, who play the kind of games documented in Hagar's "Dirty Politics" book, always jump first to suspecting it was a public servant who leaked it and not, for example, another politician.

    BVV is an ACT Party MP and, politics being what it is, every other party is in opposition to hers, if only for 'market share'. It doesn't have to be a public servant who leaked it, there's lots of other possibilities.
12. aj 12

    8 December 2023 at 10:59 pm

    there's lots of other possibilities.

    Winston.

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