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Anti-EFB crusader calls for armed revolution

Written By: - Date published: 3:28 pm, December 4th, 2007 - 290 comments
Categories: election funding - Tags:

perigo450.jpg

If you thought the Nazi flags and ‘Heil Helen’ signs at Saturday’s march against the Electoral Finance Bill were distasteful, take a look at what far-right political punter and anti-EFB crusader Lindsay Perigo’s been up to.

According to Molesworth and Featherston:

Attacking the Electoral Finance Bill Mr Perigo recently called for, apparently, armed revolution:

“…the time for mere marches is past…It is the right and duty of New Zealand citizens to throw off this government, which has long evinced a desire — nay, a compulsion — to subjugate us to absolute despotism. We should not wait for the 2008 election…New Zealanders must now ask themselves if they are a free people—and if so, are they prepared to act accordingly? Which is to say, are they prepared forcibly to evict all tyranny-mongers from their positions of power?”

The comments appear to have been since deleted from the website. But he hasn’t stopped suggesting some sort of preparations are underway: “Things are happening. No place for cowards and Richie Riches. Like ‘em? Go to ‘em.”

You wouldn’t want to try making those comments if you were Tuhoe.

Wow. Perigo is no fringe player in the anti-EFB campaign. He helped to found and remains to this day the intellectual powerhouse of the Libertarianz Party, which makes up one third of the Free Speech Coalition along with National’s David Farrar and Cameron Slater.

For those who argue the anti-EFB campaign hasn’t been hijacked by an extreme far-right agenda this is pretty damning evidence.

UPDATE: God, it just gets worse. Lindsay Perigo is now calling for the Business Roundtable to back a coup to overthrow the government. From his press release:

“Fact is, with the violations of freedom of speech and association proposed in this fascist bill, the government has forfeited its moral legitimacy. It’s not marches the Roundtable should be behind—it’s a coup.”

290 comments on “Anti-EFB crusader calls for armed revolution”

  1. principessa 1

    I’ve also heard from a few people that there was some sort of electronic device ringing households inviting them to the march last weekend. Who’s money was behind that little trick?

  2. slightlyrighty 2

    Hey guys, if your vaunted EFB is so good, then why are there 150 last second amendments to be debated in the house??

    150 LAST SECOND AMENDMENTS to a bill which is meant to be enacted into law by THE END OF THIS MONTH!!

    What a joke.

  3. Lampie 3

    Wasn’t he some deadbeat from TV?

  4. Robinsod 4

    I think he sold mattresses…

  5. Tane 5

    That was after he quit TVNZ because commercialism had made it braindead. His answer? More commercialism. Excuse me if I don’t take this guy seriously…

  6. Robinsod 6

    because commercialism had made it braindead

    I’m sure that’s why he *cough* left.

  7. Outofbed 7

    Electoral Finance Bill concerns taken on board
    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00043.htm
    “¢ Narrowing the definition of ‘publish’, particularly by removing the part of the definition that would have encompassed advertisements that were brought ‘to the notice of the public in any other manner.’

    “¢ Allowing the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Office to decide that an alleged breach of the legislation is so inconsequential that there is no public interest in reporting it to the Police.

    “¢ Shortening the period prior to an election during which third parties cannot register with the Electoral Commission. This was a recommendation made by the Human Rights Commission and Electoral Commission.

    “¢ New clauses that create greater transparency around the disclosure of the contributors to ‘secret trusts’.

    “¢ Clarifying that the requirement to place a name and address on an advertisement relates only to promoters, and not the general public.

    “All these amendments are aimed at clarifying the intention of the Bill, which does not set out to prevent free speech as misinformation has suggested, but rather, it is intended to fetter the undue influence of people who can afford to buy elections.,
    Doesn’t sound very fascist to me

  8. Lampie 8

    Hmmm I’ll wait and see

    They have done a shabby job. Not one of Labour’s proudest moments. History will soon tell us.

  9. the sprout 9

    “why are there 150 last second amendments”

    umm, slightlylighty, it’s called fillibustering – it’s what National do when they want to look relevant and not just impotent or incompetent.

  10. Lee C 10

    At last – a thread about the EFB Thank you thank you thank you.

  11. Lee C 11

    “Excuse me if I don’t take this guy seriously.”

    You need to get out more….

  12. Robinsod 12

    But Lee – I thought every thread was about the EFB? Oh no, that’s right it’s that you comment on every thread about the EFB. And yet you couldn’t be arsed marching against it the first or the second time (or taking the time to do a decent submission against it). It must be a true threat to democracy for you to fight so hard against it.

  13. Gruela 13

    What’s this EFB thing?

  14. gobsmacked 14

    Just for you, Lee C:

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0712/S00048.htm

    So it’s our old friends the Business Round Table standing up for the downtrodden little guy. Bless.

  15. the sprout 15

    nice spotting gobsmacked.
    who’d have ever thought National were really just standing up for the rights of the wealthy to manipulate elections?

  16. Robinsod 17

    Lampie – I think you’ve confuse Act with the BRT (don’t worry it’s very easy to do)

  17. Sam Dixon 18

    Cheers OutofBed, those amendments actually weaken the spending retrictions. – makes DPF look kind of stupid for getting all up in arms about them.

    Does the 150 include amendments from other parties? If it does, I suppose most of the 150 are actually National amendments.

  18. gobsmacked 19

    Exactly, Robinsod.

    One represents 1% of the voters, the other is nothing like as popular.

  19. Lampie 20

    Nah, just talking about the laywer behind the protests, wasn’t like he was trying to hide himself. Yeah I know what you mean about ACT and BRT.

    My article dated 17/11 :)

  20. the sprout 21

    “confuse Act with the BRT”

    another false dichotomy, like what gruela wears to parties.

    “150 are actually National amendments”

    yes it’s just National’s predictable fillibustering.

  21. Robinsod 22

    C’mon sprout you can tell Act from the BRT by the fact that one want’s to privatise the fire service and… no hold on, ah yes – one wants to sell off… no that’s no good either… um… one is a front group for corporate… no… Ah I’ve got it! Dancing with the stars!

  22. Billy 23

    Non-exhaustive list of people or organisations who have come out against the Bill: The Human Rights Commission, Nicky Hagar, the Law Society, the electoral commission, every newspaper in New Zealand, Chris Trotter, Institute of Chatered Accountants, Matt McCarten, the Listener.

    Can’t think why the Standard chooses to focus on Lindsay Perigo?

  23. gobsmacked 24

    Boscawen has been highly visible, and his ACT links are open, no argument there.

    But try finding any reference at all to his membership of the Business Round Table in media coverage. Just like the EBs, it’s left to the Greens to point this out.

    Free speech – yay! Transparency? Not so much.

  24. Gruela 25

    Billy

    Most of those you cited have come out for modifications or a re-wording of the EFB, rather than being against the intent of the Bill.

  25. the sprout 26

    gruela… you and your pesky truthiness

  26. Lampie 27

    Ah gobsmacked, I see what you mean, wasn’t exactly public knowledge that he belongs to the BRT.

  27. Billy 28

    Oh well, that’s all right then Gruela. Doesn’t matter how much of an abortion it is, so long as it is a well-intentioned abortion.

  28. Sam Dixon 29

    Is it jsut me or do Lindsay Perigo, David Farrar, and Cameron Slater all have something in common? A certain – fat, rich, paheka (oops, ‘white’, sorry), male quality?

  29. Billy 30

    Sam, you old anti-semite. By golly, you’re right. That makes their view utterly invalid, obviously. Game, set and match.

  30. Lee C 31

    You all seem to be missing the point. I am not opposed to electoral reform. I am not a National Party supporter, unless they are going to abolish the EFB. I am not so deluded as to think that the opposition to the EFB is not politically driven by some who have an agenda of their own ie the National Party – you only have to see how ‘badly’ they have opposed it to realise that.
    However, I am opposed to this reform, because it is a retrograde step in our democracy. I am not so staunch a defender of the Government that I delude myself that they do not have a political agenda either.
    The Sunday Star Times and Dom Post have both expressed a desire to see this Bill scrapped.
    Are they National Party supporters too?
    I will, however vote National if they promise to repeal this Bill set up a proper Royal Commission into electoral reform, adopt proper cross-party consultation, speak to interested parties and engage in a public consultation process.
    If this is unpalatable to you guys then tough shit.
    Yes Robinsod as far as I am concerned every post is about the EFB.
    The tendency of the ‘left’ to shoot the messanger, frankly is a pathetic abnegation of your democratic responsibilities. The fact that I am prepared to express what I believe, is a point of pride for me. Why do you think there are so many ‘nazi’ accusations bandied about?
    You guys villify, belittle, bully, bluster, and generally make idiots of yourselves at every turn because you all believe in a fairy-tale, which is every bit as seductive as ‘The Hollow Men’.

    That fairy tale being that the Labour Government are here for ‘the people’. Give me a break.
    Alos if National did not repeal this piece of work, I would be up there, advocating civil disobedience too. And funnily enough, when this pathetic law comes back to bite the Unions at the hands of an unscrupulous right-wing government, suddenly all you will you unbelievable suckers will wake up and realise why thei Bill is a turd.

  31. Pascal's bookie 32

    Is Perigo still wearing his Politically Incorrect T-Shirt?

    jeebus wept.

    I also think that his magazine has to take much of the blame for all the KKKlark, feminazi, liarbore stuff that everyone loves so much. Which is pretty weird when you think that Objectivism is supposed to put a moral premium on originality, sincerity and intellectual elitism.

  32. the sprout 33

    not utterly invalid Billy, don’t be so sensitive. more just similarly out-of-touch is all.

  33. Robinsod 34

    Lee – All I was saying was for something that’s so important to you, you seem to be doing very little about it. That makes me question your sincerity and that makes me less inclined to bother reading your posts. Sorry love, just calling the way I see it.

  34. Matthew Pilott 35

    Lee I was expecting a reasoned discussion of the merits (or lack thereof) of the bill.

    All you did was say, “I don’t like it, and other’s don’t like it, so it should go, and fuck you guys for disagreeing with me” in slightly more palatable terms.

    Please tell me what in that post I can criticise, that is of substance.

    It’s not attacking the messenger when he doesn’t have a message Lee.

  35. Tane 36

    Lee, you haven’t even taken the time to read the Hollow Men. I’m sorry, but I can’t take your obsession with the EFB and your insistence on parroting National Party lines seriously until you do so.

  36. Matthew Pilott 37

    I’d like to apologise unreservedly misusing an apostrophe.

    My shame for writing that last post is extreme.

    Robonsod – please don’t hate me :(

    The rest of it stands.

  37. gobsmacked 38

    Lee C

    OK, if you want to discuss substance, here is a genuine, clear question:

    Which of the world’s democracies have the best (most free, most fair) election systems? If what is proposed for NZ is so bad, can you tell us where it is good? Which countries should NZ be trying to emulate?

  38. Eddie 39

    “why are there 150 last second amendments”

    Um, ‘cos the first couple of drafts were a mess, frankly. But that doesn’t change, for me, the essential rightness (no pun intended) of the need for this legislation. Ie it’s not ok to buy elections. I’m not prepared to chuck the government or this bill just because Labour caucus and 9th floor spin is crap.

  39. PhilBest 40

    We could imitate the TRANSPARENCY of the US system, AND THE FREEDOM. With George Soros, Ted Turner, The Rockefeller Foundation, and the like funding the Left in the US, they don’t lack for the ability to match the Right in this area. Actually I see no major problem with disparity in funding in NZ either. The Clark Govt is actually trying very hard to tip the playing field way up their way.

    Another thing about the US system: when the president gets inside information on his political opponents by criminal means, its him that loses his job, not his political opponents, no matter how damning the inside information was.

    Hager’s book, “The hollow men” is firstly, a blatant political espionage job. Secondly, his bias is just incredible. Anyone to the right of Joe Stalin is referred to by him as a “right-winger” or an “extreme right-winger”.

    I did read this book cover to cover, and it was most readable. Here’s one hypothesis it allowed me to make. Hager had such DETAILED information on what Don Brash was doing every minute of the day, that the absence of information on “links” with the Exclusive Brethren beyond one e-mail, tends to make one believe that Brash was telling the truth about this. If he’d even replied to that E-mail, Hager would have had that reply. This is the weakest part of the book’s whole argument, where Hager crosses over from evidence to speculation. The whole Exclusive Brethren beat-up was the most ugly thing yet to occur in NZ politics, and shows as nothing else does, the depth of the loyalty of the MSM to the Clark regime.

    What do you guys on the Left think should be done with guys like Lindsay Perigo advocating armed revolution? And should the same standards be applied to those on the left who employ revolutionary rhetoric? Or are they automatically morally right no matter what?

    Gruela and her “truthiness” represents a rare and valuable commodity on the left wing.

  40. Outofbed 41

    150 amendments are from the committee
    http://www.parliament.nz/LiveBroadcast/house-384.asx
    Good debate at the mo

  41. illuminatedtiger 42

    Poor little rich boys. Can’t buy the election anymore.

  42. “the depth of the loyalty of the MSM to the Clark regime.”

    i hate that crappy blog geek speakie stuff so i am going to write it in full.

    rolling around on the floor laughing my arse off

  43. Gruela 44

    Personally, I’ve never understood how the Libertarian rhetoric of guys like Perigo differs from anarchism. They’re both dog eat dog systems, wherein those unable to keep up are left behind. Libertarians show no compassion or empathy for others, being only interested in what they can get for themselves.

  44. This is hilarious! Somebody points out that there are 150 amendments to the Bill, and the left-wing commenters say: “Yes, that’s National’s fillibustering!”

    Except it isn’t. Those are amendments that the GOVERNMENT has proposed to its own Bill.

    This is after the Labour Government has spent two years formulating it, and been through the select committee process.

    If the Labour Party had just had an honest approach on the Bill to begin with, we wouldn’t be facing this shambles now.

    Electoral law is the bedrock of our constitutional framework. Labour should have set up a royal commission, consulted with the public on the policy framework, sent some MPs overseas for a comparison of electoral financing regimes, got the Law Commission to give its input, put together a committee of experts, made Justice Ministry policy advice available for public comment and consultation, consulted with the Human Rights Commission, and then got onto legislative drafting, before presenting the Bill to the house for introduction and followed the select committee process. Then we would have robust legislation that the public could have faith in.

    Instead, Labour and New Zealand First refused a royal commission, consulted only with each other, didn’t investigate international regimes, ignored large tracts of Ministry of Justice advice, refused to release that advice to the public, didn’t commission the Law Commission to do a report, didn’t consult with the public on the policy framework, and introduced a Bill to the House without any public consultation, or, for that matter, any public mandate to so dramatically change the electoral system.

    Labour refused to consult with other parties, and rammed through a process in select committee that overwhelmingly ignored the sentiments expressed in this Committee. As a consequence, the Select Committee was so bogged down with the policy issues that what has emerged is a flawed, poorly drafted, ambiguous travesty of legislation.

    This is a shameful day for Labour supporters.

  45. Gruela 47

    Insolent

    “Those are amendments that the GOVERNMENT has proposed to its own Bill.”

    Please, when you have good stuff like that could you supply links so others can share the information?

  46. Lee C 48

    tane as yo insist on repeating yourself allow me to do the same:
    I am not so ready to jump to a conclusion based on one ‘quick read’ Tane.

    ‘Little Red Riding Hood’ is a quick read, too. By your logic should we exterminate wolves on that basis? If the Labour Party needed the fur, would yu go out hunting tonight? Don’t like to think for yourself? Or are you nothing more than a spin parrot?
    Tane. Which part of the EFB will erradicate the abuses that were perpetrated by ‘The Holow Men’?

    Which part of it will hold the Unions accountable for similar practices?

    How many of the other four million kiwis have read the ‘Hollow Men’?

    Do they all therefore deserve the EFB to limit their freedoms?

    I can’t believe that you can buy so fully into the EFB when the Herald, Dominion Post, Sunday Star Times, Espiner, Hager, Law Society, Human Rights Commission, Grey Power, SST, yes National and the Electoral Commission all appear to be in opposition to it.

    So, what gem of insight into New Zealand’s constitutional democracy does Labour have which gives you special dispensation to completely disregard every shred of evidence to the contrary, and still support the EFB?

    And why have you done such an apalling job of sharing this gem if wisdom with us?

    Just for clarity: Let us summarise the Labour Party line;

    ‘It [The EFB] will stop peole like the Exclusive Brethren and John Key rorting the electoral process.” (Helen Clark – Hansard, September 16th 2007)

    Bullshit!

    My attitude towards the EFB is based the evidence, rather than blindly following ANY Party line.

    Val Sim’s advice to the Government, Hager’s the Law Society and Human Rights Submissions to the SC, Espiner SST, Dominion, Herald, Hansard, Burton, King, English, Key, Electoral Commission, excerpts from the Hollow Men and reviews of the above.

    You, on the other hand have ‘The Hollow Men’ and One or two spurious sound-bites on your side of the argument.

    DO you really think you can you defend your one-eyed views by suggesting that any opposition to the EFB is based on a National Party conspiracy?

    That is Hollow.

    It is you that needs to do a bit more reading, Tane. Spin parrots like you – Tane – are responsible for the present major rift within the Labour Party. They are keeping it quiet, but even Stevie Wonder can see it.

  47. You can download the main SOP at http://www.parliament.nz/NR/rdonlyres/D1B0B7D4-5145-4AEF-BEB1-519CF3B5E17C/70041/DBHOH_SOP_1062_5628.pdf

    Most of the amendments are of a very minor, technical nature. But they are exactly the sort of amendments which should take place in Select Committee.

    In addition, Annette King has tabled a motion to divide the Bill, along with several other SOPs.

    It is very, very dangerous for a governing party to ram through major constitutional change like this. The Prime Minister assured New Zealanders that the Bill, as reported back from the Select Committee, would satisfy everybody’s concerns. If it had done so, we wouldn’t be seeing 150 amendments released just two hours before the Committee Stage.

  48. Gruela 50

    Lee C

    Which aspects of the EFB are you actually against? Because, you know, Labour have actually said they will amend it to take consideration of some complaints. (150 amendments, apparently.)

  49. Santi 51

    Paraphrasing the peerless Tane: Sam Dixon, are you a racist?

  50. Outofbed 52

    Did you listen to the debate earlier?
    Metiria Turei was great I’ll see if I can get a link
    The opposition to this bill is the sort of big money right wing campaign that the bill is designed to stop
    John Bescowen Got 1300 -5000 people at the march precisly because he had the money to throw at it.
    Only one side of the argument is therefore being presented

    The HRC broadly support the Bill’s purpose, most of their concerns have been addressed
    Nicky Hager ? this is what he says
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/466/story.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10477286

    The bill is about transparency of groups not individuals. It affects individuals not one jot

  51. Gruela,

    The issue isn’t actually what Lee’s views on what electoral law should or should not include.

    I personally believe that parties and third parties should be able to spend as much money as they like, should accept money from whomever they like, and associate with whomever they like. I’m a firm believer in the maxim that dodgy activity doesn’t survive public scrutiny: that New Zealand is small enough for no political secret to remain unexposed for long, and that the biggest sanction for activity that the electorate doesn’t agree with is the ballot box.

    Why didn’t the Exclusive Brethren buy the election for National? Because the media became suspicious about who these people were, having acted naively and secretly, and the story became how unusual (and, apparently, secretive) they were, rather than focusing in any way on the substance of their message. Sure, the Greens claimed they were spreading lies, but the issues that the EB raised were all viable debating points. The EB’s didn’t get their message across because they went about it in such an amateur fashion. It was a massive failure of big money to buy an election.

    Now, that’s my general view, Gruela, and I don’t expect you to agree with it. The issue isn’t about whether your view of electoral law, or my view of electoral law, should champion over the other. Electoral law is the bedrock of our constitutional framework. It is a consensus of the different views in society as to what is appropriate. It should have the broadest possible input from society. It should follow proper consultation processes. The most chilling irony of the Bill is that its core principal is to enhance and improve public participation in democracy. Yet the entire process that the Government has followed has been to deny public participation in the formulation of our electoral system.

    If a political party unilaterally sets the rules to suit itself, as Labour has, then it isn’t hyperbole to say that democracy itself is under attack.

  52. Gruela 54

    Oh Insolent One

    The fact is that money CAN buy you an election.

    The fact is that the EB got caught, through luck or stupidity, THIS time. Who’s to say that next time won’t be different.

    The fact is the Labour is setting the rules to attempt to make the process more open and balanced. It is only those particular groups who have, up until now, become used to being able to deafen any arguments against their own point of view by spending more money than anyone else who have a problem with this.

    The fact is, there has been a lot of ridiculous and hysterical hyperbole thrown at the EFB.

  53. That is your view, Gruela. But that wasn’t the point of my comment.

    The point is that the Government is ramming through massive changes to the bedrock of our constitutional framework without using any of the normal consultation channels.

    I would have no problem if, following the proper consultation channels, a royal commission reported back advising a strict electoral finance regime, and the Government implemented it. But that isn’t what we’ve got. What we’ve got is one team on the field setting the rules, and acting as referee. That team is saying: “If you don’t like my rules, then don’t play.”

    That is not an acceptable way to run a democracy. It doesn’t enhance participation. If you create a precedent whereby the governing party changes electoral law to suit itself, then nobody can have any faith in the system.

  54. The Double Standard 56

    Double Standard Alert

    “I think the fate of Fiji now is very much in the hands of the Fiji people.

    “The military commander’s whole strategy is based on people just accepting this passively and letting life go on, but I think there are signs across Fiji society, from the Grand Council of Chiefs to the church leaders, the NGOs, the head of the Public Service Commission, the incredibly brave statement of the acting commissioner of police yesterday, people do not like what they see.”

    Quiz – who said this, and is it worse than what Perigo is reported to have posted?

  55. Lee C 57

    gruela – interestingly enough, It was the National Party insiders that exposed brash and the EB. I ‘ll see if I can find the link for you. aha;
    see page 202 second column second paragraph which indicates that National assassinated Brash:
    http://www.pjreview.info/issues/docs/13_1/PJR13_1_7_hagerpp197-204.pdf

    gobsmacked i like the Canadian system, not the cherry-picked bits, but the whole thing;
    In particular;
    http://www.parl.gc.ca/information/library/prbpubs/bp437-e.htm#advertisingtxt

    The bill, which received Royal Assent on 19 June 2003, has several general components or themes:
    · A ban (with minor exceptions) on political donations by corporations and unions: Bill C-24 introduced a requirement that only individuals (citizens and permanent residents) may make financial contributions to registered parties, candidates, constituency associations, and leadership and nomination contestants. Corporations, trade unions and associations are prohibited from making such contributions, although they may contribute small amounts & a maximum or total of $1,000 collectively & to a party’s candidates, nomination contestants and electoral district associations, and to a candidate for an election who is not the candidate for a registered party.
    I can’t imagine why Helen and co left that bit out though.
    ps thanks to sprout for the first link

  56. Lee C 58

    also here is a quote from Burton’s letter to one David Baigent about the EFB;

    ‘The proposals contained in teh Bill are just that: proposals. it is my hope that they can be further improved throught the committee proceedings as interested members of the public willmake constructive suggestions as part of the committee process. We want the best possible outcome that will restore and indeed build new Zealanders’ confidence in our democratic process.”

    That was of course, it was slated in the Select Committee. The hte shutters came down.

  57. Gruela 59

    Insolent

    Labour aren’t changing the rules to suit themselves. They’re changing them to provide a more open and democratic election. That suits everyone.

    Can you provide a link to the legislation which says that any change to the electoral act must first be sent to a Royal Commission?

  58. Draco TB 60

    Gruela said:
    “Personally, I’ve never understood how the Libertarian rhetoric of guys like Perigo differs from anarchism. They’re both dog eat dog systems, wherein those unable to keep up are left behind.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism

    Please read – it’s so irritating watching people spouting off the standard misinformation about anarchism. Most variants tend to peace, love and harmony. I would also suggest reading anything from Noam Chomsky about anarchism. A good interview is “Noam Chomsky on Anarchism, Marxism & Hope for the Future” by Kevin Doyle for Red & Black Revolution.

  59. Gruela 61

    Draco TB

    I apologise.

    How about: “Personally, I’ve never understood how the Libertarian rhetoric of guys like Perigo differs from the underlying principle that drives animals: The Survival of the Fittest.”

  60. Outofbed 62

    Is this the 5 min argument or the full half hour?

  61. milo 63

    WE ARE FACING 150 LAST MINUTE AMENDMENTS TO OUR CONSTITUTION. AND I CAN’T LOAD KIWIBLOG … I WONDER WHY NOT

    MEANWHILE, THE 150 NEW AMENDMENTS TO THE BILL INCLUDE A PROVISION THAT ***EXTENDS*** RESTRICTIONS ON THIRD PARTIES ***BEYOND*** THE REGULATED PERIOD.

    WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON ?

  62. Gruela 64

    I wouldn’t want to misrepresent anyone’s political philosophy simply due to my own ignorance of it. (Unless it was funny.)

  63. Paul 65

    Lidsnay is one of the most objectionable people in NZ (for want of not using violent and vehement abusive language).

    His radio show used to start with the most abusive, repugnant and insulting deliberate mispronunciations of Kia Ora. Why because he wants to be an abusive bugger? Because he’s better than Maori? Because he doesn’t like Maori. Because he’s an arrogant tosser who’s trying to be deliberately provocative?

    Either way, he’s a tosser and anything that comes from his mouth should be equally dismissed and taken with caution.

    Nice to see that he’s all for a revolution on this issue that has a few righties all worked up, yet the more constitutionally damaging Foreshore and Seabed bill wasn’t in his sights.

  64. Gruela,

    If the Government is so confident that its proposed regime suits everyone, or even, for that matter, the vast majority, then why has the Labour Party done everything within its power to reject public participation in the formulation of its regime?

    It isn’t mandatory to set up a royal commission in formulating electoral law. But it is the norm. In fact, it’s unprecedented for a major social or constitutional change to not follow a report by a commission of inquiry of some sort. MMP followed the 1986 Royal Commission. Genetic Modification followed a royal commission. The ACC system followed the 1967 Royal Commission. The Royal Commission on the Courts saw a major reformation of courts in 1980. The Royal Commission on Social Policy was held in 1988. Even this year, Labour announced a royal commission on Auckland’s governance structure.

    I’m not saying there had to be a royal commission. But there should have been a structure composed of independent parties, commissioned with the task of soliciting public and expert opinion and reporting back impartially. If you are so certain that the proposals that the Government put forward are in the public interests, then why not allow proper consultation processes, which are the norm in any major constitutional change, to follow their natural course?

  65. Paul 67

    IP.

    wasn’t there a open and free select committee process with public submissions, open and free hearings?

    BTW is DPF off line or has the tin can to Canada broken it’s line somewhere?

  66. r0b 68

    “WE ARE FACING 150 LAST MINUTE AMENDMENTS TO OUR CONSTITUTION. AND I CAN’T LOAD KIWIBLOG . I WONDER WHY NOT”

    Ahh – that would be me Milo. I have H4X0R3D the interwebs to wipe out Kiwiblog forever. I used my super secret leftie evil conspiracy decoder ring to accomplish this amazing feat. Hurrah!

  67. Gruela 69

    Insolent

    Can’t argue that there shouldn’t have been a more open and thorough process undertaken over this change. I don’t know why there wasn’t. It seems a very un-Helen Clark like development. But there was still considerable consultation and many recommendations made during this time have been, or are signalled to be, taken on board.

    However, I would argue that all of the examples you cited were much more fundamental changes to existing laws than is the EFB.

    The anti-EFB lobby can claim that this Bill signals the end of democracy in NZ, but this is patently absurd. All it will do is create more transparency and a more level playing field.

  68. Paul 70

    Folk, how much more open and democratic do we want than parliamentary submissions and the select committee process?

    I don’t like the bill for reasons other than the claims of the right. I don’t however think it will kill democracy at 12:00am 1 jan 2008.

  69. the sprout 71

    “I don’t know why there wasn’t”

    yes it’s like you’d almost think that if the msm were really a watchdog they’d be warning the public about this terrible threat to democracy way back when people could’ve been actively involved in the Select Cmte stages and before. but better, as with this, Terrorist Suprression Act, Seabed and Foreshore, Age of Criminal Liability and countless other issues, to do nothing until the 11th hour and then accuse the gummint of “arogantly ramming through legislation by attempted stealth”. makes the msm look better that way and it’s much easier. also helps elect a more corporate-friendly gummint next time.

  70. Billy 72

    Gruela, don’t be so naive. There was no proper process because the Labour Party were seeking to stack the deck. I do not say that National’s motives in opposing the Bill are any more honourable. But the fact is that Labour thought they could play fast and loose to suit themselves because they had the numbers. And I think they will end up regretting turning the electoral system into another thing to play polits with.

  71. r0b 73

    “WE ARE FACING 150 LAST MINUTE AMENDMENTS TO OUR CONSTITUTION. AND I CAN’T LOAD KIWIBLOG . I WONDER WHY NOT”

    Sorry Milo – seriously – I shouldn’t tease. But – is the world that you live in really that paranoid? For real?

  72. Billy 74

    polis = politics obv.

  73. Billy 75

    Fuck, “polits”. Too much Banrock Station.

  74. the sprout 76

    too much shit in head, more like

  75. Paul,

    Nice try, but no cigar. What I wrote above was:

    Electoral law is the bedrock of our constitutional framework. Labour should have set up a royal commission, consulted with the public on the policy framework, sent some MPs overseas for a comparison of electoral financing regimes, got the Law Commission to give its input, put together a committee of experts, made Justice Ministry policy advice available for public comment and consultation, consulted with the Human Rights Commission, and then got onto legislative drafting, before presenting the Bill to the house for introduction and followed the select committee process. Then we would have robust legislation that the public could have faith in.

    Instead, Labour and New Zealand First refused a royal commission, consulted only with each other, didn’t investigate international regimes, ignored large tracts of Ministry of Justice advice, refused to release that advice to the public, didn’t commission the Law Commission to do a report, didn’t consult with the public on the policy framework, and introduced a Bill to the House without any public consultation, or, for that matter, any public mandate to so dramatically change the electoral system.

    Labour refused to consult with other parties, and rammed through a process in select committee that overwhelmingly ignored the sentiments expressed in this Committee. As a consequence, the Select Committee was so bogged down with the policy issues that what has emerged is a flawed, poorly drafted, ambiguous travesty of legislation.

    There has never been any opportunity for the public to be involved in the policy framework. That is a disgrace.

  76. Gruela 78

    Bah, you’re all retarded. Labour didn’t have the numbers. They needed Winton, Peter, Jim and the Green Gobblies to get this through. National and Act are a bunch of cry-babies because their toys are being taken away. Lindsey Perigo is Satan and Saddam Hussein’s lovechild. rOb: Shuddup about the super secret decoder rings, man. Insolent: you worry too much. Where the fuck is my bottle of schnapps? Oh, there it is…..

  77. Draco TB 79

    Insolent Prick said:
    “MMP followed the 1986 Royal Commission.”

    Such a commission has already been done and it said that electoral reform bringing third party electoral spending into line with party political electioneering and eliminating anonymous donations was needed. Why to do something that’s already been done?

  78. Billy 80

    Sprout, you consistently win the prize for most banal commenter. I have a little tip. If it sounds funny or clever in your head, read it out loud. If it still sounds clever or funny, ask someone else (not that equally untalented bean person, obviously). Then, refrain from pressing submit anyway because you just have nothing interesting to say. Nothing at all.

  79. Gruela 81

    Draco TB

    You’re my new hero.

  80. Outofbed 82

    Clause 14 (3) To omit “non contesting party” line 31 on page 20
    and substitute “non contesting party
    WTF

  81. just moving past billy and her really sad ‘look at me’ style cry for a flame war…i have been entertaining myself by reading kiwiblog and found this cracker:

    slightlyrighty Says:

    December 4th, 2007 at 5:02 pm
    Personally I am sick to death of a government that says “you can’t”. You can’t speak against the government, you can’t smack, you can’t eat bad food, you can’t let off fireworks.

    I’ve just realised why John Keys’ DVD resonated with me. He actually says “you can!”

    prize for the best thing jonnie boy said you CAN do
    hmmm rip off dvd, end war in iraq by just saying so, use religious cult cos your party has no volunteers

  82. Except, Draco, the Electoral Finance Bill doesn’t eliminate anonymous donations, and doesn’t bring third party spending in line with political parties electioneering. Third parties are only allowed to spend $120,000 under the Bill. Political parties are permitted to spend twenty times that amount.

  83. the sprout 85

    hehe, lose your temper easily when you’re on the turps eh Billy? what an enormous surprise.

  84. This is astonishing. For the first time in New Zealand’s history, the Electoral Commission can’t interpret the electoral act for candidates, because it doesn’t understand the law itself. They have to go and consult a lawyer.

    That’s like the IRD not being able to advice taxpayers on their tax obligations.

  85. Billy 87

    See Sprout, that would have been a perfect opportunity to try putting my advice into action. What I expect you imagine is urbane and cutting is simply childish.

  86. Gruela 88

    Insolent

    Do you have a link for the Electoral Commission statement?

  87. Outofbed 89

    Sprout I think you are really funny and clever
    Don’t listen to them

  88. see that is the thing with expectations billy, they let you down in the end. sprout doesn’t imagine he is urbane and cutting, he likes being a childish fucktard. especially if it is directed at you

  89. Outofbed 91

    You too ?

  90. Gruela,

    I do note that you have taken all of the EFB-supporting views at face value, without asking for sources and attribution. Every time you have asked me to justify a claim, I have provided it.

    I’m therefore quite happy to direct you to http://www.stuff.co.nz/4282976a6160.html . I don’t have the actual advice at hand, but I hope this NZPA story is sufficient for you. Among a range of advice that the Electoral Commission made to the Committee, is this gem:

    “The advisers’ reports also showed the committee’s $120,000 election year spending limit for interest and advocacy groups was well below the Electoral Commission recommendation of between $250,000 and $300,000.”

  91. Gruela 93

    Billy

    I think you’re missing the point. Sprout is targeting his act to suit the audience.

  92. the sprout 94

    understood at last. thanks g and oob.
    i do like being a fucktard but, hope Billy hasn’t passed out yet

  93. Gruela 95

    Insolent

    Come on, I don’t take everything at face value. I am able to think critically.

    The link you’ve given was interesting, (although somewhat dated and third hand,) but it failed to substantiate your claim that “the Electoral Commission can’t interpret the electoral act for candidates”.

  94. Oh, and Gruela, you might want to look at this, as well: http://www.dominion.co.nz/4283213a10.html

    Dr Catt said she would be “eternally grateful” if flaws could be ironed out through amendments.

    “Dr Catt said her “No 1″ concern with the bill & which was reported back with wide ranging amendments on Monday & was around what activities MPs could engage in and what they couldn’t.”

    Then further on:

    Dr Catt said it was crucial her organisation understood the law.

    Then later in the text:

    “We’re the organisation people will want to lay complaints with, we are the ones tasked with the duty to report to police if we think the components of the law are breached,” she said.

    “We also the ones that are expected to provide guidance on what the bill means along with the Chief Electoral Office.”

    And the clincher:

    Dr Catt said she would be “eternally grateful” if flaws could be ironed out through amendments.

    Then we have an undertaking from Michael Cullen to iron out those issues before the law is passed.

    Now, all of this discussion took place after the select committee reported back. This is the Electoral Commission–the delegated judge, or at least prosecutor of electoral law–stating that they don’t know what the law means.

    Now, Annette King’s supplementary order paper makes no change to Clause 80. It remains as ambiguous as it was when Helena Catt first expressed her concerns. Instead, Annette King says the “law of common sense” will apply. Whatever that means. Helena Catt doesn’t understand what it means.

    Then Annette King says it’s up to MPs during the parliamentary debate on the Bill to give judges guidance on interpreting the Bill. Yes, Gruela. You read that right. Judges will have to revert to Hansard to interpret what the law means.

    This is what happens when a government is so hellbent on writing electoral law to suit itself, at the expense of proper procedure, rather than follow proper law-making processes.

  95. nih 97

    I am in no way opposed to armed revolution. If people feel the need to take up arms to repair the government, so be it!

    Of course, if it just so happens that the people taking up arms are part of a very small minority, they should also face the consequences and their lives ended as per their decision to roll the dice and act like thugs. If not by gunfire, then by hanging. This sounds like a supremely fair deal to me.

    If you don’t like the sound of that, don’t contemplate taking away my vote so that you might do your talking with guns. Democracy never waived its right to defend itself.

  96. That link isn’t dated. It is after the Select Committee report-back. This is all advice that the Select Committee received from the Electoral Commission, and rejected.

    Now, none of Annette King’s amendments in her supplementary order paper include the Electoral Commission recommendations. Chris Finlayson’s amendments this evening proposed many of the EC’s recommendations. Labour voted those amendments down.

    Labour didn’t allow public input in the policy-formation process, rejected expert advice in select committee, and now Parliament as a whole, lead by Labour, has rejected the EC’s expert advice.

  97. do you like how i actually got to be mean to sprout whilst seemingly defending him? i have small vegetable complex and it is only exacerbated when people attribute my posts to him

    http://kiwiblogblog.wordpress.com/2007/12/04/graciousness-as-spin/

    *sigh*

    such a tender wee ego us legumes

  98. the sprout 100

    well said nih

  99. the sprout 101

    oh beany you are such a tender wee thing

  100. the sprout 102

    IP, a bit rich you complaining about undated references considering more than half of what you attribute to Helena Catt is from before the last amendments

  101. nih 103

    do you like how i actually got to be mean to sprout whilst seemingly defending him?

    It’s a real forum art to develop an online persona to the point where it is recognised for intelligence and insight then cash it in by abusing fucktards without actually reducing your overall goodwill budget. The Sprout and The Bean have mastered this.

  102. Lampie 104

    Think I’ll wait for the DVD version, make sure the music is legal would ya

  103. r0b 105

    There has been a lot of focus recently on criticising the process of formulating the EFB. “We should have had a full Royal Commission type process”. It’s a good attack line, but let’s see…

    New Zealand does not have a formal constitution, but is has a collection of documents that are generally held to be the sources of “constitutional” law. Wikipedia lists the following sources:

    Cabinet Manual
    Constitution Act
    Electoral Act
    Imperial Laws Application Act
    Judicature Act
    Legislative Council Abolition Act
    Letters Patent constituting the office of Governor-General of New Zealand
    New Zealand Bill of Rights Act
    Supreme Court Act
    Statute of Westminster Adoption Act
    Treaty of Waitangi

    Many of these documents get updated, so constitutional changes are not infrequent, and they happen without a full Royal Commission. Nor is it necessary to have “widespread agreement” on constitutional change. The shift to MMP, arguably one of our biggest ever constitutional changes, was decided by a referendum majority of 54% to 46%. Hardly widespread agreement. The following source gives a timeline for some of our main constitutional changes: http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/node/5040 Only one (as far as I know) involved a Royal Commission.

    Now the EFB. If it was bill that introduced a radical new version of our constitutional arrangements then I would agree that a Royal Commission type process would be appropriate. But it doesn’t. It takes an existing set of laws governing campaign spending, and tightens them up. It brings them in to line with common practice in other similar democracies. It’s not a fundamental constitutional change (like the introduction of MMP). It’s not an assault on free speech. It doesn’t selectively persecute any minority. It just tidies up existing rules that define the level playing field that is required for democracy.

    National oppose the EFB because it will limit the power of their clandestine money to buy elections. For obvious reasons they can’t say that, so they dress this fight up in the ill fitting clothes of “defending free speech”. They have a strong second line of defence in criticising the process (no Royal Commission). But that’s all it is. Attack lines by a political party defending its vested political interests.

    Was the EFB process perfect? Obviously it was not. But as Bismarck said (quoted in various forms) – making laws is like making sausages: the less one knows about the process, the more respect one has for the outcome.

  104. Gruela 106

    insolent

    I’m still not convinced, sorry. Helena Catt’s complaints seem more about the complexity of the Bill, rather than anything about it’s unworkability. Isn’t it her job to interpret complex legislation?

    Also:
    “Labour didn’t allow public input in the policy-formation process”
    but
    “rejected expert advice in select committee”

    Isn’t a select committee part of the policy-formation process? And Labour didn’t reject ALL of the expert advice made during the select committee process, but rather incorporated a lot of it into their amendments.

    I’m sorry, insolent, but I’m yet to be convinced that the EFB will do anything other than strengthen our democracy.

  105. the bean 107

    ooooo there is a goodwill budget? can i make a dvd with mine? i will call it “ambitious for vegetables and other sniffable products”. what would be a good sound track for it?

    where you been nih? we missed you. i was calling for back up. back up, back up! (anyone else sad enough to love that friends episode where phoebe calls for back up?)

  106. I don’t know what you mean, “before the last amendments”, or “undated”, Sprout. That NZPA article is dated 21 November. It was after the Select Committee reported back to the House.

    Helena Catt’s comments were in direct response to the Select Committee report. Her primary issue relates to Clause 80. Clause 80 isn’t clarified, amended, or even included in Annette King’s supplementary order paper.

    Helena Catt’s concerns about the interpretation of parliamentary expenditure were not addressed in the SOP.

    The EC’s expert advice to the Select Committee on limits for anonymous donations, and spending limits for third parties, and the disclosure regime for third parties, were all rejected by the Select Committee. Annette King’s SOP does not restore the EC’s recommendations. Chris Finlayson moved amendments this evening, to restore the limits as recommended by the Electoral Commission, and the Labour Party, along with the Greens, New Zealand First, and United Future voted down those amendments.

    What was the point in having a select committee process at all, if you’re going to ignore expert advice, and then do what you were always going to do anyway?

  107. Lampie 109

    I heard this DPF (sounds like a benefit) talking one eyed Larry Williams (I get the KKK on as experts about civil rights) on 1zb.
    This is a serious question. Is he retarded? Sounds a bit… well…. umm…. retarded. DPF i’m talking about.

  108. Lampie 110

    what would be a good sound track for it?

    The theme song from the hit TV series, The Munch Bunch

  109. nih 111

    Sorry Beany, I’ve been a busy chap preparing the yard for summer. You and Sprout seem to be doing a fine job of pruning the other crap in here though.

  110. nih 112

    This is a serious question. Is he retarded? Sounds a bit. well.. umm.. retarded. DPF i’m talking about.

    One could argue that all conservative mindsets represent a form of retardation.

  111. Gruela 113

    insolent one

    “The EC’s expert advice to the Select Committee on limits for anonymous donations, and spending limits for third parties, and the disclosure regime for third parties, were all rejected by the Select Committee”

    So now you’re arguing about the limits set by the EFB?

  112. Lampie 114

    HAhaha, but I’m serious!!!

  113. No, Gruela. A select committee is demonstrably not part of the policy formation process. The purpose of a select committee is to take draft legislation from the House, hear submissions, and ensure that the policy objectives as represented in the legislation are transmitted into robust law. It is a legislative drafting process.

    The Select Committee didn’t even get that right. It was so bogged down with the policy issues–because the public didn’t have any input into the policy formation process–that it overlooked its core responsibility of creating robust legislation. That’s why we need 150 amendments from the Minister in a supplementary order paper. Because the Select Committee didn’t do its job.

    Yes, it is Helena Catt’s job to interpret the law, and recommend for prosecution parties and individuals that she believes are in breach of the law. But it is the job of Parliament to create robust law that can be interpreted. It is frankly a disgrace for Parliament to create what is knowingly an ambiguous law. Saying: “We don’t want to make the hard calls about what this law means: we’ll let the Courts sort it out”, is downright cowardly.

    If you are a taxpayer, and you have a tax question, you can call the IRD and ask them about their interpretation of your tax liabilities. You can challenge the IRD’s position in Court, but you’re not likely to win. Parliament takes a lot of care in formulating tax law–which is as complex as it gets in terms of its scope and interpretation–that can be interpreted by the IRD. The IRD doesn’t say: “We don’t understand this bit of tax law. How about you, as a taxpayer, get your own legal advice on it, then we can prosecute you, and we’ll let a judge decide what the law is.”

    It’s the same with electoral law. Parliament should create robust electoral law. It is only because the Government has followed such a thoroughly flawed process that we won’t have it.

  114. Dean 116

    Nih said: “One could argue that all conservative mindsets represent a form of retardation.”

    One could also argue that accusing someone of using multiple logins, or being a member of the National party just because someone doesn’t agree with you also represents a form of retardation.

  115. the sprout 117

    gosh IP you really are loquacious tonight, in a rather formal english kind of way. been copying and pasting from your other work?

  116. Dean 118

    thesprout said: “gosh IP you really are loquacious tonight, in a rather formal english kind of way. been copying and pasting from your other work?”

    If you can’t debate his point and instead try to make fun of him, why are you bothering?

  117. Billy 119

    Gruela: “I think you’re missing the point. Sprout is targeting his act to suit the audience.”

    Nice try at finding an explanation for the banal, shallow, smug, self-congraulatory pointlessness. It has a certain logic: Nih is around.

  118. Billy 120

    Dean, Sprout is a one trick pony. The trick is not really that clever. It is simply to accuse anyone who doesn’t agree with him of being stupid. This trick requires one never to say anything meaningful or to use more than 20 words or proper punctuation.

  119. the sprout 121

    umm dean, i think it’s because it’s all been said before upthread and done to death on various other threads. IP is good at sounding convincing while blending a lot of obfuscatory half-truths and feints in with his information, most of which is just relitigating various arguments long since debunked elsewhere but ressurrected by IP for the unwitting who have just tuned in.
    it’s tiresome and i’m not being paid for this so i can’t be bothered.

  120. the sprout 122

    oh Billy, does this mean we’re through? you used to like my pony. i guess no man is a hero to his valet.

  121. roger nome 123

    “What was the point in having a select committee process at all, if you’re going to ignore expert advice, and then do what you were always going to do anyway?”

    That’s ridiculous IP – the role of the SC is not to roll over to every “expert’s opinion”, but to make sure the intentions of the legislation are implemented, and that the public has a chance to air their concerns. I believe it has been successful in achieving these things.

    “It’s the same with electoral law. Parliament should create robust electoral law. It is only because the Government has followed such a thoroughly flawed process that we won’t have it.”

    I think you’re concerns are valid, if a little over-played here IP. Though it remains to be seen that the confusion over section 80 won’t be solved – and that seems to be the only real problem that’s left. And if it does cause some problems next year it will be fixed after the next government is formed.

    Overall the opposition to the EFB is looking ever more like a large storm in a rather miniscule tea cup.

  122. Dean 124

    the sprout, that may very well be the case. however, what do you say about his statement regrading national and the broadcasting act vs the electoral act?

  123. Outofbed 125

    IP is dpf :-)

  124. Gruela 126

    insolent

    I give up

    You say the EFB is unworkable legislation which will constrain genuine political debate and end our elections in litigation and confusion.

    Fair enough.

    I say it will allow a more open dialogue during elections and sideline vested interests.

    I call truce.

    What say we wait a couple of weeks until this mess has sorted itself out a bit more, then continue our debate?

  125. the sprout 127

    oh g, the fog of war will have lifted by then and they’ll be on to a new imaginary “threat against democracy/rights of the wealthy to manipulate elections” outrage.

    Dean – kind of you to ask but i’m too vacuous to think about IP’s monologues.

  126. No, Gruela, I’m not arguing about the limits in the EFB. I’m saying they emerged from a flawed process, with no justification. You have said that you agree with the EFB, and that it fairly represents what it is needed to create a fair electoral system.

    But what is your justification for that? The Government rejected the opportunity to open up the electoral finance and expenditure regime for public consultation during the policy formation process. We didn’t have a Royal Commission, or a citizen’s jury. We didn’t have the Law Commission write a report on the issue. We didn’t have the Ministry of Justice policy consultation process. We didn’t have a committee of expert advisers assess international jurisdictions. We didn’t have any attempt by Labour to generate cross-party consensus for its proposals. We didn’t even have a political party seek public mandate on its proposed reforms at the last election.

    Instead, we had a Bill whose policy objectives were stitched up in secret between the Labour, New Zealand First, and United Future parties. We had a deeply flawed Bill referred to a Select Committee, which subsequently rejected the views of the overwhelming majority of submitters. The Select Committee rejected recommendations on some fairly core issues by expert advisers. The Government refused to release the advice it received from officials. All of this prompted both the Law Society, and the Human Rights Commission, to call on the Government to reject the Bill in its entirety, and start again. The Law Commission was so outraged with the process that it refused to provide any expert advice to the Select Committee on the Bill.

    All of those steps are downright unprecedented within the normal policy-formation process, let alone a process making constitutional change.

    The outcome is a Bill that has emerged from the Select Committee that is so flawed that the Electoral Commission says it doesn’t understand what the law means, and can’t do its job of advising the public on some fundamental aspects of electoral law. In response to this shoddy piece of legislation, which should have been robust emerging from Select Committee, is for the Minister of Justice to propose 150 amendments to the Bill in the Committee stage of the House. None of those amendments address the Electoral Commission’s ability to interpret the law.

    The Labour Party made much of changing employment law to introduce “good faith bargaining”. When it comes to the rules around electing MPs, Labour has acted in totally bad faith. It has done no bargaining with the public.

    The Prime Minister assured the public that the Select Committee would address all of the public’s concerns with the Bill. The Standard echoed this message. Well, Gruela, the Select Committee has reported back, and yet STILL needed 150 amendments just two hours before the Bill was to be voted on by MPs.

    After such a shambolic process, do you really have faith that Labour has finally got it right?

  127. the sprout 129

    going by how hard you’re working on this tonight IP, i’d say they got it bang on.

  128. Gruela 130

    insolent

    You wrote all that in 8 minutes?
    There’s no way I’m going to debate any more tonight. I know it’s an important issue, and I know there’s still a lot to say, but I’m sorry, I’m tired. Till we meet again, Mr Insolent….

    (P.S. EFB Rulz)

  129. the sprout 131

    g, no wonder you’re tired. the IP identity alone has written 3,016 words since 6:22 – that’s quite prodigious.

  130. Not an entirely constructive contribution, Sprout.

    I can tell you now. If John Key ever proposed a major constitutional change that it didn’t signal before an election, then proceeded to stitch the policy up in secret without public consultation of any kind during the policy formation process, rail-roaded such a poorly drafted Bill through to select committee, ignored the overwhelming majority of submitters, had the Law Commission and the HRC call for the Bill to be scrapped, ignored the key advice of expert officials, had a National-dominated select committee report back with a Bill still so poorly drafted that it needed 150 amendments, and still enacted a Bill that was so ambiguous that the principal organisation implementing the legislation didn’t understand it, then I would never vote for him, or his cowardly colleagues who voted for that travesty again.

  131. Gruela 133

    S**t, I must be tired. Something The Insolent One wrote actually got me agreeing with him.

  132. r0b 134

    ” If John Key ever proposed a major constitutional change that it didn’t signal before an election”

    And round we go again. It’s not a major constitutional change, it’s a tidy up of existing legislation governing election spending.

    Meanwhile, in other news…
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10480282&pnum=0
    Yes – something the government should have done earlier. No – not exactly evidence of an evil left wing conspiracy.

  133. Outofbed 135

    I’m not tired but I need to sleep I will probably have to play the JK dvd

  134. r0b 136

    “S**t, I must be tired. Something The Insolent One wrote actually got me agreeing with him.”

    Quick – get some sleep before you start voting tory!

  135. roger nome 137

    IP-

    So the process wasn’t ideal – I think we all agree on that. Yet this alone not a hanging offence, after all, Labour was never going to get the National Party to sign off on something that diminished their plutocratic advantage come election time. What’s really important now is the outcome of the process – and from where I’m sitting there isn’t a whole lot to complain about – most of the common concerns advanced by civil society groups have been addressed, bar perhaps section 80 (though as I’ve said, there’s still time to fix that). Thankfully it seems that Labour really has come to its senses, and we’re going to end up with a good piece of legislation.

  136. Dean 138

    Oh good, its roger nome.

    roger, have you decided why you wanted to compare before tax income levels to argue that NZ was better off than Australia yet?

  137. Robinsod 139

    Hey Bean, hey Sprout – good to see yous guys. I heard a few things about the nats tonight. Do you reckon I should spill them?

  138. Gruela 140

    I’ll guess that it had something to do with Capital Gains. Also State and Federal taxes. Let’s not forget higher mortgage payments. Higher school fees? Maybe cost of living comparisons?

  139. Gruela 141

    Not the nats. I meant NZ vs. Aussie tax rates.

  140. roger nome 142

    “have you decided why you wanted to compare before tax income levels to argue that NZ was better off than Australia yet?”

    You mean median income levels? Hey, if you can be bothered factoring in all the different property and income taxes that they have in Aus and then comparing them to NZ, including WFF I would like to see your results – me, I don’t have that kind of time, but thought that before tax comparisons were of some indicative value.

    But that’s not really what this thread’s about anyway, is it idiot?

  141. roger nome 143

    Robinsod – don’t be a tease….

  142. Dean 144

    roger, you compared one set of statistics taken at one time, then compared them to a totally different set taken with a different sample of people in a different time frame, and youre calling me an idiot?

    dont give up your day job.

  143. Gruela 145

    Robinsod

    What is the internet made for? (apart from porn.)

  144. burt 146

    Sam Dixon

    In your first post:

    Cheers OutofBed, those amendments actually weaken the spending retrictions. – makes DPF look kind of stupid for getting all up in arms about them.

    Your second:

    Is it jsut me or do Lindsay Perigo, David Farrar, and Cameron Slater all have something in common? A certain – fat, rich, paheka (oops, ‘white’, sorry), male quality?

    Oh dear oh dear, you really should seek help for your DPF fixation. But keep up the good work posting here, it’s good to see all you mates here at the standard still have time for a person like yourself. Couldn’t you have stopped at defacing DPF’s wiki and let it rest there?

  145. Roger,

    I didn’t spend five years at law school, and a pretty decent chunk of my career interpreting law, to come to the view that a political party that:

    a: rejects a public consultation process on a fundamental constitutional change
    b: rams it through the House ignoring the overwhelming majority of submitters
    c: rejects the key recommendations of the expert officials
    d: has the Law Society and the HRC saying the Bill is irretrievably bad that it needs to be dumped
    e: suppresses the official advice from public scrutiny
    f: has the Law Commission opt out of advising it
    g: then reports back to the House with a Bill that is still so flawed that it needs 150 amendments in a supplementary order paper
    h: STILL has the organisation implementing the law not understanding its core functions;

    “not a hanging offence”. It doesn’t matter what the outcome is. With all due respect to you, Roger, you are by no means an authority on electoral law. You have no concept of what the outcome is right now, other than that the Labour Party assures you it is a good outcome. The Party has been assuring everybody, at every turn, that it has got it right. At every turn, subsequent scrambling efforts by the Labour Party to fix its many flaws, have resulted in the Labour Party finally saying it has got it right.

    When, as the Bill is being voted on through the Committee stage, the Minister of Justice says she can give no advice to the Electoral Commission on how to interpret the ambiguous Clause 80, you cannot possibly have faith in the Bill’s outcome.

    There isn’t time to fix it, Roger. We have just a few sitting days left before the end of the year, and the Bill comes into force on 1 January.

    It’s all very well to claim rhetorically that that National would never have worked constructively with the Labour Party to get cross-party support on the financing regime. But that is patently untrue, Roger. National made a commitment, long before the Bill was introduced in the House, to work constructively with the Government to place reasonable restrictions on third party expenditure, clarify the use of parliamentary services expenditure in an election campaign, clamp down on excessive anonymous donations, and clamp down on donations from trusts.

    Instead of consulting with National, Mark Burton hatched a secret deal with the NZ First and United Future parties. Labour has no official advice advocating the extended election period, has no expert advice on the amounts it is advocating on the third party regime, places no restrictions on donations from trusts, only introduced limits on anonymous donations that coincidentally coincide with Labour’s own anonymous donation fundraising levels from 2005, and leaves the use of parliamentary expenditure in campaigns ambiguous.

    Now, Roger, even if Labour had totally ignored the National Party, and gone to the country with an independent group of experts to consult with the public and come up with a policy regime that shares all of the restrictions that we have in the present Bill, I wouldn’t have a problem. At least the process would have been transparent and fair.

    But we never had that, Roger. We have a governing party that has written electoral law with its own interests in mind, using a flawed process. Yes, absolutely, that is a hanging offence.

  146. burt 148

    What IP said.

  147. burt 149

    Dear The Standard

    Thank you for alerting me to the views of Lindsay Perigo, having read this thread, I’m starting to think he has a valid point.

  148. Gruela 150

    Oh burt

    “Thank you for alerting me to the views of Lindsay Perigo, having read this thread, I’m starting to think he has a valid point.”

    Please, don’t ruin it now.

  149. nih 151

    What IP said.

    That wasn’t worth switching accounts for IP.

  150. burt 152

    Gruela

    Ruin what? The thread? That happened when reality got dumped in favour of partisan point scoring.

    Irrespective of your political flavour, DPF post of “oh my god 150 last minute amendments” is valid. If National had done this would the good folk here at the standard be supporting it? Hell no!

    They support it because it’s Labour, and because they believe that Labour is good and National is bad. End of story – partisan hacks having their dig at DPF for pointing out the highly irregular nature of the way constitutional level legislation is being handled.

    As A Lawyer you should understand that.

  151. Gruela 153

    Double Standard

    No, sorry, I meant it for the Lindsey Perigo support.

    Also, apologies for the A Lawyer jape.

  152. Robinsod 154

    I didn’t spend five years at law school, and a pretty decent chunk of my career interpreting law, to come to the view that a political party that:

    That’s right IP you didn’t spend blah blah blah at law school blah blah blah because you’re lying. Unless you’re telling the truth in which case you should ask for your money back bro ‘cos you shouldn’t have even got through moot with your lame arguments…

  153. roger nome 155

    IP – you seem to really on sheer volume of assertions mixing fact with innuendo as you go along, never providing any links. You simply create long winded puffed up, heavily personalised narrative. You really are a bloody boring bastard to debate. As such, I’m not really interested in addressing your claims regarding process – as has been established previously here, it us a relatively minor piece of legislation which, in practice, doesn’t change a thing for 99.9% of our public, so it doesn’t necessitate a debate of many years, or an attempt to keep the torries happy who would have kicked and screamed all the way, dragging the process out so that they could repeat all of their little semi-legal electoral rorts of 2005 (secret EB campaign that they lied to the public about, $1.7 laundered through secretive slush funds for the super-rich).

    What’s important now is that a good, workable piece of law has resulted from the process which enhances our democracy. At the moment I’m happy that this has been achieved, and you haven’t provided any good reason for me to change my mind about this.

  154. burt 156

    roger nome

    You have been happy with the EFB at every stage of it’s evolution. You are like Jordan, support it simply because it’s produced by Labour. Your credibility is as much on this line as Labour’s is over this. If Labour are fried in the 2008 election will you be prepared to admit that you supported them to their defeat?

  155. Robinsod 157

    Burt – you’re a moron. Take your ritalin and go to sleep.

  156. Gruela 158

    burt

    do you seriously believe that the election will be won or lost because of the EFB?

    Do you have anything to say on a policy of privatisation?

  157. burt 159

    Gruela

    Not tonight, I’ve just spent hours with a bunch of Catholics who were discussing their election campaign to fight for the rights of the EB. The grass roots of religion seem to have woken up to the fact that Labour are not that friendly to religion and they are on a slippery slope when the govt targets individuals based on their religion.

    Normally I’d be in like a robbers dog, but the topic of privatisation is a bit broad to say yes or no outright. Another night I’ll discuss it case by case.

    Goodnight.

  158. Roger,

    I have provided links. It isn’t evident that you’ve read them.

    Have you read the HRC submission to the select committee? Which parts of the HRC advice do you disagree with? Have you read their subsequent advice to the select committee? Because it’s all available online, if you wish.

    Have you read the Law Society submission? Which parts of the Law Society submission do you disagree with?

    You have claimed that the issues of the “civil society” groups have been addressed. Which ones, specifically?

    Which issues raised by the Electoral Commission have been addressed?

    What, specifically, do you know about Labour’s plans for amending Clause 80 to clarify the crucial position on parliamentary spending during an election year? How is it that you are aware of Labour’s clarification, when it is not contained in Annette King’s SOP released today? Are you aware of another SOP due to be sprung on the House on Wednesday? Is it acceptable, in your view, to spring SOPs on the House just minutes before they are to be voted on?

    What official advice have you seen that supports any of the proposals the Government has put through?

    What reports have you seen of any efforts by either Mark Burton, or Annette King, to create a cross-party consensus on the policy proposals of the EFB?

    What reports have you seen suggesting that the Government is relying on official advice to extend the defined election period?

    What reports have you seen, Roger, of any attempts by the Ministry of Justice to consult with the public on the policy issues prior to introducing the Bill into the House?

    You have claimed that I indulge in mixing fact and innuendo, Roger. What have I said in this thread that constitutes innuendo that is not backed up by fact? If I indulge in so much innuendo, then how is it that you are unable to debate any of my points?

  159. Robinsod 161

    Prick – by using innuendo you make few concrete points. That means people who which to challenge you (god knows why) have to take you to task on what you’ve implied. When they do you claim they’ve deliberately misunderstood you and that they are liars. You pull this shit time and again and then expect people to take you seriously. We don’t.

  160. Gruela 162

    When the Brethren have anything to do with religion, rather than power and subjugation, then you can paint me yellow and call me Sir Lemony. Also, I know a lot of Catholics and they’re about as agreeable to the EB as the Pope is to condom scrambles. burt, you’ve just dropped low down in my books. Go back to your Lindsey Perigo fanclub meeting.

  161. roger nome 163

    IP – you supplied two links in this thread which confirm only relatively minor points that you make.

    As to support by the civil society groups – well the Coalition For Open Government already support it, as do green peace, and the HRC welcome many of the changes that were made by the SC, and this support will be solidified by the many sensible changes that have been made in the SOP.

    Ultimately however we’re goign to have to wait and see how the legislation pans out in practice – and you still (aside from your point about section 80 – which still may be fixed) haven’t given me any reason to doubt that the outcome will be a good one.

  162. AncientGeek 164

    Please – this debate is getting boring… It is just a question of numbers that make the EFB or something like it inevitable. It is the difference between playing to 2.9 million voters rather than 0.2 million voters.

    Or if you prefer – AncientGeek’s Politics 101 – the long winded way.

    The point of the EFB is that it is a legal recognition of a previous change in the electoral system.

    Many aeons ago when I was a mere child, the 3 month period covered by the electoral act was more than sufficent to cover the usual election campaign. Furthermore, the political parties generally confined all of the advertising, active campaigning, most character smearing, and general public politic’ing to that period.

    The reason for this was the nature of a first past the post (FPP) system – the general public didn’t matter all that much. The effective election was fought in marginal seats. Resources. time and energy could be concentrated, and attempts to fight a real national campaign were usually exercises in futility. Everyones attention was concentrated in the areas that mattered. In that environment, attempts to sway elections with sneaky, nasty, and underhanded tactics usually backfired.

    The nearest thing that we ever had to a general election was in 1975 when Muldoon ran an effective smear campaign using TV. Otherwise the nearest thing to a national campaign was the war to gerrymander the electorate boundaries after each census. Have to admit that the nats were very good at that. They’d usually be well behind in the total vote, but win the election on seats.

    Now most of you children were probably a mere glazed expression in your parents eyes at the time (for a number of varied reasons). But the political system in NZ CHANGED in 1996. The legal frameworks are still catching up. I’ve been involved in some way in every political campaign since 1978 – originally on the right – then on the left as I studied more history.

    MMP requires that a campaign is run over the whole of the NZ electorate – all 2.9 million of them, rather than the 200k in the 10 most marginal electorates.

    The effect of this is obvious in the effective public period of campaigning. In 1996, the public election campaign was about 3 months. In 1999, it was a month or so longer. 2002 – well we werte all caught short by a early election – it would have been a 6 month campaign.

    In 2005, both national started public campaigning in Feb/March with my tax dollars being wasted on a billboard campaign, and labour started a bit later at the visible level. This was partially in anticipation of another early election. But mostly because it takes more time (and money and resources) to ‘talk’ to 2.9 million people than it does to 0.2 million. Both major parties are staring to realize this.

    The mass media is of limited use these days, and getting more limited all of the time. Who has the time or diligence to sit through boringly pre-scripted political drama, when they have the net (or 50 other possible things to do) at their disposal. And there really isn’t much left that is shockable in the NZ public. We’ve seen it all before. If it isn’t politics, then it is reality shows or the simpsons.

    This means that the political process is the same as all marketing these days – it is about repetition, contact, exposure, and more repetition (which is why marketing is soooooo boring).

    Anyway, my point is, that the public election campaign period is currently the year prior to the election. Thats what all major parties currently plan on. Just be glad we have the Christmas holiday break, when most people stop thinking for summer. Otherwise we could have some really LONG campaigns.

    What the EFB is proposing if pretty much what was in the existing electoral act some constraints on ‘non-political’ organizations and individuals to do smear campaigns. The main difference is that instead of restricting it to 3 months, it is about 9 months – assuming a sept/oct election.

    Work on it started immediately after the last election, and with the exception (in public) of the nats – pretty much across all parties. The current rule set was just unsustainable for the political system – a spiral of mutually assured destruction (MAD) with preemptive strikes was forming.

    Of course there is a lot of jockeying by politicians, amendments being the current manifestation – after all they are talking about how they organize their jobs and livelihoods. Thats why the way the bill is coming out is so dull. The nett effect is that we have pretty much the same rules as the old 3 month period, but extended out to up to 9 months. Slightly less interference permitted from people not willing to be active in the political system – and bugger all from people running back room smear campaigns.

    Gee – why is any of this a shock? In the latter case, it is like me letting a politician (or marketing managers) play with the internal structure of my programming code. All they can do is fuck it up – because all they want to do is play without doing the training and legwork that’d make them useful. So I allow them to be critical, feed ideas and suggestions, but not to screw the system. If they try to knife me in the back anonymously – then they’re likely to have steps taken to prevent it happening again. I’ll take a bet that is the approach taken to their area of expertise by anyone who has any – including politicians.

    Personally I’m confident that, in the event that the EFB doesn’t pass (unlikely) this year, and (even more unlikely) the nats to form a government after the next election, that they’d bring a similar bill with a different name forward prior to the following election. They’d just prefer to run one more preemptive strike this election so they could win. But they’d hate someone else to do it to them.

  163. Gruela 165

    It’s hard to argue with Ancient wisdom.

  164. AncientGeek 166

    IP: I think you’re slightly misrepresenting the process of constitutional change processes through history. Its a nice theory – never seen it.

    The process you’re presenting as how it should be followed does not exist in history. Constitutional or electoral system changes are always messy, extremely fractional, massively frictional, and always have a host of people claiming that the process is flawed. At least that is the case in almost every one I’ve ever read about, observed, or been involved in. This includes all of the ones that have extensive consultative processes prior (thinking Canadian especially here).

    The ones that do have a a high degree of public unanimity about them, usually also seem to have a rather large number of mass graves associated with them.

    If you’d care to present an example of where this perfect process has ever occurred – I’d be very interested in reading more about it. But it sounds more like the difference between a legal theory and legal practice to me.

  165. AncientGeek 167

    G: Yeah – well what can I say.. Its easier writing this on here than the multi-threaded code I’m actually debugging at this early hour. At least the stuff on here doesn’t have a pedantic compiler and obscure badly documented rule set making my life difficult.

    Ummm – actually I think it is called a written constitution in politics..

  166. Lampie 168

    This means that the political process is the same as all marketing these days – it is about repetition, contact, exposure, and more repetition (which is why marketing is soooooo boring).

    Some marketing elements, perhaps more the election process (as you can draw marketing into every organisation as importment element to understand to use correctly) so not boringgggg!!!! Told you it would be a marketers dream to in one of these election campaign :)

  167. the sprout 169

    nice synopsis Ancient, and you seem to have put a halt, for now, to our flaccid puffy friend’s 4,000 word effort.

    nice to see you too robinsod, sorry i missed you last night.

  168. deemac 170

    I asked some days ago for some sort of limit on lemgth and/or frequency of posts. IP is getting beyond a joke – everyone else seems able to make a point succinctly, he goes on and on and on…

  169. Tane, let me point out a few things to you and your readers.

    **Unsurprisingly, “the Nazi flags and ‘Heil Helen’ signs at Saturday’s march” were not waved approvingly, but in distaste at this country’s most fundamental constitutional law being meddled with so peremptorily.

    But you knew that, or should have. And the sad fact is that you approve of the meddling, and will lie to defend it. That you have to lie suggests it is impossible to defend it honestly.

    **That photo you use is not from this month’s anti-EFB march, but from April’s anti-anti-smacking bill march. Perigo didn’t speak at any of the anti-EFB marches, and is not associated with the Free Speech Coalition.

    But you knew that too since you pinched the picture from here, but probably just figured it didn’t matter.

    **You say that Perigo’s comments have now been deleted from the SOLO website, or “appear to have been.” In fact they’ve not been deleted at all, and reappear again today in a press release making the same point. Far from resiling from his comments as you intimate, he’s four-square behind them.

    But you would know that too if either you or Molesworth and Featherston did your research. Reading the comments in context is much more powerful, and much, much more accurate.

    But I doubt that accuracy is important to you either.

    **Now, down to the substance of Perigo’s comments, which your readers are more likely to appreciate with the necessary context, which they might get by reading Perigo’s entire post, and also comments by others including myself, Libertarianz leader Bernard Darnton and Canterbury law professor David Round.

    Perigo quotes from America’s ‘Declaration of Independence,’ written to explain the justification for throwing off a tyrant and setting up a constitutional republic to defend their liberties. “The original American freedom-fighters declared,” notes Perigo, ‘A Prince, whose character is thus marked by every act which may define a Tyrant, is unfit to be the ruler of a free people.’ New Zealanders must now ask themselves if they are a free people—and if so, are they prepared to act accordingly? Which is to say, are they prepared forcibly to evict all tyranny-mongers from their positions of power?”

    Too harsh? Well, notes Bernard Darnton, “recent efforts of the NZ Government to kill democracy are on a par with those of Pakistan’s. In 2005 they flouted election laws by stealing public money to buy propaganda. In 2006, they abandoned all constitutional norms and retrospectively changed the law so that they wouldn’t be called into the High Court to answer for that action. This year the government has passed legislation allowing them to steal far more at the next election. Worst of all, the Clark regime is now trying to ram through legislation that would ban me from pointing out that they are behaving like tyrants and telling people not to vote for them.”

    “Tyrants”? Tyranny? Is that more than a little hyperbolic?.” Here’s John Locke, the inspiration for Jefferson’s Declaration of Independence, from which Perigo quotes:

    “TYRANNY: AS usurpation is the exercise of power, which another hath a right to; so tyranny is the exercise of power beyond right, which no body can have a right to. And this is making use of the power any one has in his hands, not for the good of those who are under it, but for his own private separate advantage…”

    Clear enough? Look back again at Darnton’s litany above and think about it.

    The chief point is this: Once constitutional means of overturning governments have been removed or gerrymandered, only the speech of protest remains. Once that is regulated, what’s left?. As I argued it myself at Not PC, is this:

    “As long as it’s possible to exercise your right to free speech, you may resist your government peacefully; once that right is taken away, anything goes. After all, if you can’t use reason or persuasion to make your voice heard, then what course of action is left?

    That’s how important this is.”

    David Round puts it even more bluntly:

    “Hitherto, people of other political opinions also had rights. Hitherto, our electoral finance laws, like other parts of our basic constitutional arrangements, enjoyed general cross-party support. Hitherto, democracy meant ongoing popular engagement in the issues, not just casting a vote on election day after a year of comparative silence on all political issues from all but the incumbent government.

    Our present Prime Minister ceased to resemble Muldoon some time ago. She now more resembles Venezuelan president Hugo Chavez, gerrymandering his country’s constitution to guarantee his own hold on power indefinitely. Both strut on the world stage. Helen Clark professes concern for human rights in Zimbabwe and Fiji. Why not here? The similarities extend even to a common tendency to insult monarchs.

    As many dictators have learnt, when constitutional means for replacing a government are not available, only unconstitutional means are left. That is not good for a country.”

    ** So the point is that “the anti-EFB campaign” is far more important and has far greater constitutional implications than your sneering, spin and shortsightedness would suggest. Far from being “hijacked by an extreme far-right agenda,” it’s been accompanied at all times by an acute awareness of the historic and constitutional implications of overturning the very basis on which governments claim a mandate.

    Perhaps I should finish by quoting Sam Adams, one of the great men of 1776, before helping to throw out a tyrant…

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom — go from us in peace. We ask not your counsel or your arms. Crouch down and lick the hands that feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were even our countrymen!”

  170. slightlyrighty 172

    So when Robinsod says

    “That’s right IP you didn’t spend blah blah blah at law school blah blah blah because you’re lying. Unless you’re telling the truth in which case you should ask for your money back bro ‘cos you shouldn’t have even got through moot with your lame arguments.”

    Does he realise that he is actually engaging in a lame arguement? Forget the issues eh ‘Sod, just fire off a general insult or accuse the speaker of lying, that’ll do!

    Have you actually read the bill, or some of the submissions on it?
    I would direct you to the submission by the law society, which outlines why, although the intentions of the bill are admirable, the process by which this bill has been excessively flawed leading to flawed legislation, having the opposite effect to which was intended.

    Electoral law needed to be re-addressed. All parties have expressed that view. The manner in which it has been is partisan, and vindictive. This is not the basis to proceed on such a path.

    I would have a better erspect for your opinion if you actually articulated it, rather than rely on invective and insult.

  171. Lampie 173

    Still waiting on the DVD for this thread, mind the music.

  172. PhilBest 174

    It is just incredible that none of the regulars here seem willing to concede anything about just how bad the EFB is. Even the otherwise surprisingly decent Gruela.

    Suppose “Family First” does one leaflet drop nationwide. That’s their $120,000 gone. Then Labour attacks “Family First” in the media, getting wide press coverage for THEIR opinions, smearing “Family First”, Chris Trotter, Finlay MacDonald, John Minto, Tracey Watkins, et al lambast “Family First” in their columns, the Dompost Editorial likewise, and to add insult to injury, a 10 million dollar propaganda campaign by the Health Dept. does a whitewash of the “Family First” criticisms.

    Supposing much of this was unfair. What does “Family First” do now?

    (By the way, the above is pretty much what happened to the Exclusive Brethren. Even by reading “The Hollow Men”, I can see that these people, and Don Brash, have been set up by a campaign of lies about them. Read my post at 5.59 yesterday. No-one has addressed this point.)

    Back to “Family First” (or whoever). What do they do? Is THIS your idea of “levelling the playing field”? Gruela?

    If John Boscawen or someone ends up in Jail in the next few months, is he not a “political prisoner”?

    And by the way, I agree with Insolent Prick above, that if John Key tried to do ANYTHING LIKE this, he would lose the votes of all the regular rightwing contributors to these blogs AND we would be raising just as much of a storm over it. Plus, YOU GUYS would also be raising a storm over it instead of selling your souls and justifying it. Its called “principles”.

    I strongly suspect that the reason YOU’RE not worried is that you KNOW you have the relevant institutions so stacked that prosecutions carried out under this act will only ever be on a completely partisan political basis. Not unlike various “Police Investigations” for the last few years. (Again, see my post 5.59 yesterday).

  173. r0b 175

    And by the way, I agree with Insolent Prick above, that if John Key tried to do ANYTHING LIKE this, he would lose the votes of all the regular rightwing contributors to these blogs

    Uh huh. The same way all those right wingers stopped supporting National after their naked attempt to buy the last election was exposed.

    Its called “principles”.

    You misspelled “hypocrisy”.

  174. By hypocrisy, r0b, do you include a blog campaigning for intellectual property issues, and then stealing somebody else’s photo, attributing it to an event it had nothing to do with, and then failing to disclose the source of the image?

  175. r0b 177

    G’day again IP. No, by hipocrisy I mean “the practice of claiming to have moral standards or beliefs to which one’s own behavior does not conform; pretense.”

  176. r0b 178

    I misspelled hypocrisy – heh!

  177. Tane 179

    Hi Peter, thanks for your lengthy response. I don’t have time at the moment to respond to every part of it, but I will make a few points:

    * Whether or not Perigo’s comments were actually set in a wider context, the substance is what I have laid it out as: he supports a right-wing coup to overthrow our democratically elected government. That’s violent extremism and it undermines your cause. If I were you I’d be frantically distancing myself from Perigo’s comments.

    * I know the Nazi flags and Heil Helen signs were intended to shame the government, but their use was so utterly out of proportion that it was distasteful. Don’t use the holocaust to try and score political points over the EFB, it’s frankly sickening.

    * The Libertarianz have played an important role in the anti-EFB campaign. Perigo is the godfather of that movement. You can’t pretend his advocacy for a business-backed coup against a democratically elected government is of no consequence. If you want to make comparisons to Venezuela I’d start there.

    * The EFB does not restrict speech, it restricts spending. I know propertarians like yourself and Perigo don’t understand that distinction, but pretty much everyone else does.

    * I’m sorry if you got the wrong impression, but I’m not trying to present the photo above as having been from the EFB rally. Nowhere in the post did I say or imply that he spoke there. I used it because it’s the best photo of Perigo that I could find online.

  178. slightlyrighty 180

    Tane.

    You make the distinction that the bill does not restrict free speech, but restricts spending.

    That is correct and when you look at the bill in isolation it seems harmless. The problem that I and many others have is that the bill must be seen in a wider context. When you consider the appropriation bill allows incumbents to spend to a greater limit than any challenger or other third party, the bill cannot be seen in any other way as an attempt to screw the scrum in favour of the incumbents.

    The fact of the matter is to engane in any sort of meaningful “free speech” in this countery does come at a cost. Labour has vast resources at it’s disposal as a result of the appropriations bill.

    Imagine a debate where one side has a megaphone and the other side is reduced to a whisper. This is the net effect of both the EFB and the appropriations bill when they are considered as 2 parts of the same regime.

    The previous system was flawed. The proposed system is similarly flawed. The correct result lies between the 2 extremes and requires a bi-partisan approach FROM THE OUTSET.

    As I have said previously, if an individual engages in free speech, and no-one is there to hear it, does he or she make a noise?

  179. Santi 181

    Tane, come clean and admit you’ve been caught with your pants down by Peter Creswell, who has exposed your intellectual limitations in your feeble defense of the EFB.

    As a full-time Labour myrmidon your task is to defend it at all costs. You have failed, you are fired!

  180. Tane,

    The title of this post is “Anti-EFB crusader calls for armed revolution”. Lindsay isn’t an anti-EFB “crusader”. He’s never spoken at an anti-EFB rally.

    The image gives the impression of Lindsay speaking at an anti-EFB rally. It isn’t.

    It’s obvious that you pulled the image from somewhere you found it online. Given your campaign against the National Party’s use of a song that you have claimed is Clocks, can’t you see the hypocrisy of stealing somebody else’s image, attributing it to an event it has nothing to do with, and failing to acknowledge the source of the image?

  181. Robinsod 183

    Santi – stop thinking about Tane with his pants down.

  182. r0b 184

    slightlyrighty – “That is correct and when you look at the bill [EFB] in isolation it seems harmless.”

    Well saints be praised, a righty tells it like it is!

    The problem that I and many others have is that the bill must be seen in a wider context. When you consider the appropriation bill allows

    And so we segue to the next round of The Forever War. slightly, you need to do a bit more homework on this one. I suggest:

    http://norightturn.blogspot.com/2007/11/hypocrites.html

  183. Tane 185

    Prick, that’s weak. Perigo is a crusader against the EFB. He’s even called for a business-backed coup. His Libertarianz party is one third of the Free Speech Coalition.

    You’ll also see I’ve never claimed Perigo spoke at an anti-EFB rally. You can read it like that if you want, but that’s clearly not what was intended. So I used an image that I found on the net? Big deal. It’s pretty standard practice online, and Peter Cresswell’s done it himself in the last week. This is just another desperate diversionary tactic Prick.

    While we’re here, what do you think of Perigo’s call for armed revolution over the EFB?

  184. The Double Standard 186

    Tane, what did you think of Clark’s implict call for revolution in Fiji last year?

  185. Matthew Pilott 187

    IP that photo looks like it’s in Wellington, and we all know that there weren’t that many people there for the EFB rally so I doubt anyone would confuse it. Even if they did, wouldn’t that be a good thing for the EFB cause, thinking there were at least 11 people there?

  186. Robinsod 188

    DPFDblStdClaws – I believe Tane asked first.

  187. The Double Standard 189

    Robbo – did you happen to see Outrageous Fortune last night? You’re not going to flop it out also are you?

  188. Tane,

    You are being dishonest. You post a picture of Lindsay Perigo speaking at a rally, below the title: “Anti-EFB crusader calls for armed revolution”, and the clear implication is that Lindsay spoke at the EFB rally. He didn’t.

    Perigo’s call was filled with hyperbole. It’s his style. The point he made, with some really pretty obvious historical references, is the right of citizens to take up arms to overthrow a despotic and tyrannical regime. That’s how the American revolution came about. So too the Cuban revolution. In fact, pretty much every democracy in the world has come about through expulsion either of colonial masters, or overthrow of tyranny. I’m struggling to see how you’re finding that difficult to understand. You’re a better woman than that, Tane.

    Perigo linked the EFB to New Zealand being a tyrannical and despotic regime. In my own view, that statement is an act of outlandish hyperbole, for which Perigo is well known. I disagree with it. I think there is a very fundamental difference between a government acting against the interests of its voters, acting entirely in its own interests, being completely out of touch with reality; and a government that succumbs to despotism and tyranny.

    My view is that we are seeing in New Zealand the former, rather than the latter. The former will be dealt with at the polls next year, when voters use democracy to turf out this bunch of loathsome, corrupt, and self-serving cretins. The Labour Party will face the wrath of the ballot, rather than the bullet.

  189. slightlyrighty 191

    Rob.

    Please read my entire post before you quote snippets and pass them off as gosple.

    Remember free speech means nothing if nobody hears it.

    Or better still, how about a quote from one of your own.

    If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all.
    * Noam Chomsky

  190. Matthew Pilott 192

    IP, “The Labour Party will face the wrath of the ballot, rather than the bullet.

    Some people will be happy that third parties can’t hide while spending millions directly and indirectly.

    Can I ask how you can all (not just IP) cry foul and protest so strongly against EFB, and how plain awful it is and what a disaster it is, and how Labour is buying the next election, and it’s so strongly tilting the playing foirld in its favour, yet in the same breath assume Labour will lose the next election?

    Can’t be that bloody bad then. :)

  191. Sus 193

    It was refreshing to see objective lefties in last Saturday’s march. They at least respect the concept of freedom.

    Level the playing field? Crap. Face it, your boss got her fingers caught in the till after the last election and, after protesting her innocence for months, vilifying senior civil servants into the bargain, quickly legalised an illegality rather than have her day in court to prove that much-touted innocence.

    She’s cheesed off that the Nats raise more in donations than she receives – although why anyone would support John Key is beyond me, either.

    ‘We can’t have people buying an election!’, she cries – while helping herself to even more public money to tell us to vote for her.

    It’d be funny if it wasn’t criminal.

  192. r0b 194

    “Please read my entire post before you quote snippets and pass them off as gosple.”

    I did read the whole thing righty. That’s whay I think you’re misinterpreting the appropriations bill. Read the NRT link. It isn’t about electioneering. And while it does favour the incumbent MPs (as do many many other factors) it doesn’t favour the left or the right. Hence I think we’re OK with Noam on this one.

  193. Sus 195

    And as for this being an ‘extreme right’ ploy; another Clark dream; the last I heard the Maori party were still opposed to the EFB.

    Diehard righties, those guys.

  194. Robinsod 196

    DPFDbleStdClaws – I don’t have a telly (it got repossessed after I spent the payments on advertisements protesting the EFB).

  195. r0b 197

    “If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all”

    PS – righty, do remember to pass that one on to DPF on Kiwiblg won’t you…

  196. MikeE 198

    Tane – I doubt Lindsay supports a “Right Wing” anything. Hes a Libertarian, not a right winger.

  197. Pascal's bookie 199

    I’m not sure that you can write off Perigos stuff as hyperbole when Peter was just here saying that he was being very serious.

    I mean he’s an Objectivist isn’t he? Don’t they get excommunicated for lying? A=A’ and all that. ;)

  198. Tane 200

    Mike, libertarians try to claim they’re not right wing, but they are. The fundamental split between left and right is one’s view of property rights. Libertarians are propertarian absolutists who shun any form of interference in the market. That’s right wing extremism, my friend.

  199. Sus 201

    Right and wrong, Tane. Respecting property rights is just that. No interference. Nothing right-wing about it. Nothing left, either!

    Libertarians also respect the rights of adults as to their sexual preferences, providing the other consenting party/ies are also of age. Not much right-wing going on there, either.

    Or how about a repeal of the Misuse of Drugs Act, eh? Horrendously right-wing, that! :)

    Left-wing/right-wing; bugger all difference in that you’re all happy to mind each other’s business. Both authoritarian, varying only by degree.

  200. Dean 202

    Tane said:

    “Mike, libertarians try to claim they’re not right wing, but they are. The fundamental split between left and right is one’s view of property rights. Libertarians are propertarian absolutists who shun any form of interference in the market. That’s right wing extremism, my friend.”

    I think that’s the most deluded thing I’ve read all week.
    If you honestly believe that the fundamental difference between the “left” and the “right” are their respective attitudes on property rights then it’s no wonder you say some of the things you do. Which is a shame, because you seem to be an otherwise insightful kind of person.

  201. r0b 203

    Sus – “Respecting property rights is just that. No interference. Nothing right-wing about it. Nothing left, either!”

    A little simplistic don’t you think? No interference is actually anarchism. When libertarians say “respecting property rights” they don’t mention the baggage with that goes with it. Laws. Police. Courts. Prisons. All the mechanisms by which the rich make sure that the poor don’t interfere with the property rights of the rich. “No interference” is a myth – it means “no interference with the rich”.

    Mary Antoinette was a good libertarian. Let them eat cake…

  202. Tane 204

    Except, Sus, that your conception of property rights and the free market relies entirely on state interference. Try removing the coercive power of the state and see how long your natural right to property lasts, or how well your ‘free market’ functions.

    Your ideology is not about ‘leaving things alone’, it’s choosing to structure society in such a way that we allow individuals (or legal individuals) to own as much of the earth’s scarce resources as they’d like while others starve or go without.

    That kind of market absolutism is a fundamentally right-wing idea and has nothing in common with the left-wing ideals of equality and solidarity.

    Oh, but you point out you want to let people use drugs and choose their own sexuality. But that’s not entirely the truth, because what you really believe in is the ability of people to use drugs and choose their own sexuality on their own property. And if you don’t own property? Well you’ll do what your landlord tells you to do. In fact, the libertarian conception of freedom is so warped that it claims to be against racism while defending the right of restaurants to put up signs saying ‘no dogs or Jews’ and claims to be against discrimination while upholding the right of a landlord association to refuse to let any flats to gay tenants.

    That doesn’t sound like liberty to me.

  203. The PC Avenger 205

    Ah, but you see Tane, in Libertopia, people will be free to choose!

    For example, they can choose either to meet the insane requirements of the local Captains of Industry, or sleep in a ditch and starve to death.

    Truly, this would be a paradise.

  204. Phil 206

    “For example, they can choose either to meet the insane requirements of the local Captains of Industry, or sleep in a ditch and starve to death.”

    PC avenger; go back into your straw-man, fear-mongering little cave, and come out when you’ve got something sensible to say

  205. Gruela 207

    Phil

    That is sensible, as anyone who has read a history of the Irish famine or the Highland clearances could tell you.

  206. Roark 208

    Tane, you just don’t get it do you? The key point of libertarianism is that it is meritocratic. Those without merit receive no reward. Yes you can die in a ditch rather than work but that is your choice. There is no reason beyond your baseless socialist theology that those without merit, or more correctly those who wish to act without merit, should be allowed to hold their betters back.

  207. Roark 210

    I see you’re employing the usual razor wit of the cosseted left, PB. Much easier than actually providing a rational argument, isn’t it?

  208. Gruela 211

    Roark

    So obviously you’d believe in a 100% death tax…

  209. Tane 212

    Roark, you’ve made it over! And here I was thinking you were that old psychopath Barnsley Bill.

    So, it’s meritocracy you want? How exactly do you define that, cos I can see some real difficulty in your argument that libertarianism is meritocratic when it shuns any kind of equality of opportunity, let alone equality of outcome.

    You’re angry and full of bluster Roark, but then so was Ayn Rand. And she died a hated old pervert. Reckon you can do any better?

  210. Tane 213

    Oh and Roark, care to explain your ‘Key is a faggot’ comment from this morning? What a nasty piece of work you are.

    http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2007/12/over_150_last_second_amendments.html#comment-377910

    I know it’s a cliche that libertarians are just psychopaths looking for a justification, but you really take the cake.

  211. Roark 214

    Gruela – I believe in the individual’s right to leave their estate to whoever they want to. And before you start bitching about how that sets up hereditary hierarchies you should think about the fact that those who inherit need also to have merit or they will have their gains taken from them. Just as members of the “middle class” took from the aristocracy during the industrial revolution.

  212. Tane 215

    Roark. You haven’t explained where your absolute property rights come from.

  213. Roark 216

    Tane, you could do a bit better than your petty baiting. Meritocratic doesn’t mean equality. It means those who have merit succeed over those who don’t. If you can’t understand that basic concept then you should consider buying a dictionary.

    You can try to brand me as a psychopath if you want but I seem to recall that those who didn’t conform in communist Russia were similarly “diagnosed” and often paid with their minds. Good to see you’re keeping up the tradition.

  214. Gruela 217

    Roark

    So then it’s alright if I smash you over the head and take your wallet, since if I don’t have merit my gains will soon be taken from me?

    You may have developed the most inconsistent political philosophy I’ve ever heard of.

  215. Roark 218

    And where do your “human rights” come from Tane?

  216. Roark 219

    You may have developed the most inconsistent political philosophy I’ve ever heard of.

    That’s right Gruela if you say it it comes true. Are you an arts major by any chance?

  217. Tane 220

    They’re a socially useful construction. As are property rights. There’s nothing absolute about either of them. That’s where your libertarianism falls over.

  218. Gruela 221

    Roark

    You didn’t answer my question. If I can beat you up and steal your wallet, I should get to keep it, right? Since my ability to do so is of ‘merit’ to me.

  219. Roark 222

    They’re a socially useful construction

    So you are saying that outrage over the murder of a child is only a social construction? Does that make it meaningless? What about acts of religious faith? I would imagine you don’t believe in that “construction”. Do you just pick and choose what has meaning or value? As I understand it your uncle Joe shared a similar philosophy.

  220. ben 223

    So then it’s alright if I smash you over the head and take your wallet, since if I don’t have merit my gains will soon be taken from me?

    You may have developed the most inconsistent political philosophy I’ve ever heard of.

    Jesus that’s an appalling comeback. Just a total, idiotic straw man.

  221. Roark 224

    Gruela – I didn’t answer you because you are trying to turn a petty criminal act into a metaphor for an ontology. The reality is much more complex because your act would not stand alone as a singular symbol of strength. You’re implying it would. That’s dishonest.

  222. Gruela 225

    Nope, sorry, I see it as a direct metaphor for your own argument. You’re arguing for a meritocracy, so am I. It’s not so complex: might makes right, right?

  223. Tane 226

    No Roark. There are evolutionary and social reasons why we abhor child murder. The discourse of human rights is merely a shorthand. Your mistake is to think that your conception of rights is real, eternal and absolute. It’s not.

    Unless you can demonstrate where your absolute property rights come from then I’m afraid you haven’t got a leg to stand on. Your belief system sits atop a house of cards Roark, and a very shaky one at that.

  224. Robinsod 227

    Oh what have we here? A little Nietzschean? If you want to talk about the endless iteration of meaning to nothingness I won’t argue with you Roark but fuck boy – that’s not gonna help you in the real world and it’s collective behaviour predicated on constructed meaning that has created a society in which you can spout your drivel in comparative safety. Don’t think for a second you wouldn’t be eaten alive if your fantasy came true and even if you’re the smartest, toughest guy around there’s still a very good reason we didn’t live much past thirty for the first 90% of our (ungoverned) existence as a species.

    “hold their betters back”? You fruitcake.

  225. Gruela 228

    Tane

    I like it, especially since HE was the one implying YOU wanted to live in a Stalinist state.

    Who’s the free-thinker now, Roark?

  226. Outofbed 229

    it’s collective behaviour predicated on constructed meaning that has created a society in which you can spout your drivel in comparative safety
    Rob I kneel at your feet

  227. Outofbed 230

    I wish someone was kneeling at my feet, come to think of it

  228. Gruela 231

    I think he ran away. If there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s a Libertarian.

    “Are you an arts major by any chance?” Wot a snooty little fuck.

  229. Pascal's bookie 232

    I wasn’t being witty Roark, just stating my opinion. I find Libertarians to be funny.

    Have you booked a berth on the Freedom Ship?

    Catchy name that. It’s a Ship and it’s for Freedom.

    But no, I have no interest whatsoever in engaging in an argument with you, rational or otherwise.

    I wish you no ill will. In fact I’d be more than happy if you fulfilled your fantasy and run off into the desert or wherever and formed your perfect society of meritocratic, objectively right about everything, good looking, artistically perfect and fabulously wealthy individuals, just to spite us lesser folk, who sponge off of you and mock you and fail to give you the deference that you believe is your due. Have at it, knock yourself out, prove us wrong.

    I promise I’ll come crawling over to you if it all turns to custard here without you, and you can deliver a 50 page speech about how right you are. No doubt in a rousing Baritone with the sun glinting off of your steely eyes or somesuch. I’ll even listen and promise not to laugh.

    Aside from that: what robinsod and Tane said.

  230. Tane 233

    Right on PB. Where’s Galt’s Gulch when you need it?

  231. Ruth 234

    The vicious hatred toward John Key by Libertarianz is creepy. I hadn’t seen that faggot comment Tane linked to.

    I think it’s all because he’s not Don Brash — so he’s the anti-Christ. Seriously extremist.

  232. CMR 235

    Tane said …the bill does not restrict speech it restricts spending…” (I paraphrase.)

    This is naive semantics in the extreme. Freedom is indivisible. Freedom to spend (one’s own monies!) and freedom of speech are merely vignettes of the freedom I seek, enjoy and defend!

    The freedom to acquire property is not and has never been axiomatic in the left/right wing debate,

    For a profuse commentator you exhibit a remarkable, almost childish ability to assume rather than ponder. Grow up, grow up fast!

    CMR

  233. Tane 236

    CMR, what a strange comment.

    a) I’m sorry, but I don’t see where the freedom to spend as much as you’d like in an election campaign comes from. Democracy requires a level of equality between its participants, and as such it’s perfectly justifiable to make sure those who have great wealth cannot drown out the equally valid voices of those who do not.

    b) The matter of who owns and controls property (broadly including the means of production) and the power relationships that flow from this has always been at the core of the left-right divide. If you can’t see that then I suggest you do some reading.

    For someone who tells others to ‘grow up’ you show a rather naive understanding of politics.

  234. Roark 237

    Tane, our species is 100,000 years old. Child murder has only been taboo for a tiny part of that history. In some cultures it’s only been an issue for a matter of decades. Property and territory however is hard wired. I’d say if you’re going to use the evolutionary card you’ll find property rights re far more ingrained in our make-up.

  235. The Double Standard 238

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hyperbole

    You want me to go look up ridiculous statements by unionists Tane?

    I’m sure that there are plenty out there. Surely you are embarrassed to seriously claim that Perigo is inciting revolt?

    Is that short enough for you to cope with G?

  236. The Double Standard 239

    Also I’m interested in your thoughts on Clark’s rather more deliberate and hardly-coded call for some sort of revolt against the military takeover in Fiji

    http://www.thestandard.org.nz/?p=798#comment-7684

    Surely a head of state making calls like this (deliberately and repeatedly) is a more serious action than Perigo’s ranting?

    Also, what are you view’s on the repeal of the sedition law? Since it hasn’t been repealed yet (I think) I assume you’ll be making a complaint to the police about Perigo?

  237. Dean 240

    Speaking of growing up Tane, I’d just love to hear your take on the Erin Leigh case.

  238. Roark 241

    Yes Robinsod, we have progressed well enough through “collective behaviour predicated on constructed meaning” but before that we did well under the rule of the pope and before that under the rule of the roman empire. These are stages in history Robinsod. If everyone saw the world your way we would still be living in caves. I’m glad you brought Nietzsche up. He once said “the new philosophers are coming” and that they would be met with anger and fear. You are yesterday’s man Robinsod and your beliefs belong to the past.

  239. Gruela 242

    Double

    Ha ha, yeah, I got through your entire post without falling asleep, unlike some of insolent’s efforts.

    Roark

    Are you seriously arguing that protection of their property is more important than protection of their children, due to some genetic hard-wiring? Okay…..

  240. Tane 243

    Roark, you’re back! And here I was thinking you’d escaped with your tail between your legs.

    I really can’t figure out what you’re trying to contradict here.

    With infanticide you’ve kind of proven my point. The fact that history shows it has been socially accepted under certain social, environmental and economic conditions suggests your conception of rights is not as clearcut as you might think.

    As for your unlimited individual property rights, that’s an even more recent historical development. Like, so recent that it wasn’t even heard of in this country until around 1840. If your conception of property rights is in our makeup you’ve got to wonder who it was that forgot to tell everyone until the development of industrial civilization.

    So, are you going to tell me where your absolute property rights come from Roark?

  241. Roark 244

    Gruela, I said that if Tane will argue evolutionary pragmatism he must admit territory has been more important than children for the vast bulk of our specie’s history. He has not offered any argument other than moral superstition. You seem unable to see beyond your blind humanist faith also.

  242. Tane 245

    Roark. The argument isn’t over whether humans find territory important.

    My question is where your far more specific absolute individualist property rights come from. Why is your right to own as much property as you like, untaxed and unregulated, in any way inalienable?

  243. Dean 246

    Tane said: “As for your unlimited individual property rights, that’s an even more recent historical development. Like, so recent that it wasn’t even heard of in this country until around 1840.”

    To be fair, you’re taking about a people who hadn’t even invented the wheel by then. I’m not sure that property rights were the highest thing on their list of priorities.

    And Tane, how about that Erin Leigh?

  244. Gruela 247

    Sounds to me like Tane’s won the debate.:-)

  245. Roark 248

    Tane, you seem to have mistaken me for some kind of ignorant fundamentalist. As I have explained to Gruela you are arguing superstitions. That you believe my philosophy is as grounded in false essentialism as your’s, and seem determined to attack me on this attribute you have imaginatively allocated to me, shows only that you are unable to transcend your pathetic historical construct. You are a prisoner of your banal mind.

  246. Tane 249

    Dean, to be honest I haven’t really followed what’s happened with Erin Leigh because it doesn’t interest me. I’m not going to defend Mallard either, I think the guy’s an idiot and Labour would be better off without him.

    TDS, yes I’m sure Perigo isn’t actually plotting a coup, but he’s certainly advocating it. Don’t pretend for a moment that his statements aren’t extremist or that they don’t advocate overthrowing our democratically elected government. If Perigo was Tuhoe he’d be locked up in Mt Eden tonight.

  247. r0b 250

    Roark – “Tane, our species is 100,000 years old. Child murder has only been taboo for a tiny part of that history. In some cultures it’s only been an issue for a matter of decades. Property and territory however is hard wired”

    I call bullshit. References please. You are wrong on all counts. Humans evolved as social and wandering primate tribes. Child murder is an obvious evolutionary looser, and the very concepts of “property” and “territory” are too recent, in evolutionary terms, to be hardwired.

  248. The Double Standard 251

    So, did anyone hear that the Nats DVD had a clocks sound-alike on it?

  249. Gruela 252

    Roark

    “Property and territory however is hard wired.”

    How is that not false essentialism?

  250. Tane 253

    Roark. You’re arguing libertarianism but you’ve failed utterly to come up with a decent defence of it. You’ve obviously gone through life spouting crap about property rights and the free market without once even considering whether your premises make sense.

    Stop trying to weasel your way out of the argument and face the fact that you borrowed your political philosophy from a fantasy novel and when challenged in the cold hard light of day it doesn’t stack up.

    Go to bed Roark, you’re an embarrassment to your cause.

    (Oh, and “your’s” doesn’t need an apostrophe. It’s a possessive pronoun.)

  251. Gruela 254

    Double

    You might also be interested to hear that Labour overspent their electoral cap last election (by $800,000!)

  252. Roark 255

    Rob, infanticide is well documented throughout our history. The killing of the children of a sexual competitor in particular was a regular and expected behaviour. We are hardwired for the strong to eliminate the weak. That’s how we evolve. When Tane talks of “right” he assumes it has some core meaning but “rights” are the result of the will to power. The market in a pure form is the best intellectual expression of this physical truth. To answer Tane’s question about property rights: it is my “right” to own what I can because I will it. It is your delusional belief in society that stops you from seeing the world for what it is: interwoven expressions of power. To turn a blind eye to that is to ensure the miring of our race.

  253. Gruela 256

    “it is my “right” to own what I can because I will it.”

    So I CAN steal your wallet then? Groovy!

  254. Roark 257

    You can try.

  255. Tane 258

    Roark, I take that back. You’re not a libertarian. You’re a psycho looking for something, anything, to grab onto to justify your illness. Libertarianism was your respectable face, then when you lost that argument you fell back on some Nietzchian will-to-power bullshit.

    You’re a slightly more coherent version of Dad4Justice, but without the humanity or the comic value. You’re not impressing anyone by parading your illness all over the internet. Go to bed and stop embarrassing yourself.

  256. r0b 259

    So Rorak, we have gone from “Tane our species is 100,000 years old. Child murder has only been taboo for a tiny part of that history” to “infanticide is well documented throughout our history”. That’s an appropriate back down from you. Of course its taboo, no species would survive without that taboo. And the fact that it does happen some times in specific circumstances doesn’t change that.

    “We are hardwired for the strong to eliminate the weak. That’s how we evolve.”

    That’s an utterly simplistic view of a Darwinian model of evolution. Grab a clue – the field has moved on. Its about the survival of the gene, not the survival of the individual. Kin effects, altruism, cooperation, are all just as important as the selective pressure that you oversimplify as “the strong eliminate the weak”.

    Your understanding of evolution is trivially superficial. I’ll leave someone else to call you on the philosophy.

  257. Gruela 260

    “You can try.”

    Game, set and match, there, buddy.

  258. Roark 261

    Tane, go fuck yourself you smug commie fool. Rob, you may be interested to know that a species based model of evolution still holds considerable weight in anthropological and biology circles. You’ve read Dawkins and think you know it all. Well done. He’s a good promulgator of his “memes” you’ve obviously bought what he is selling.

  259. r0b 262

    Rorak – “Rob, you may be interested to know that a species based model of evolution still holds considerable weight in anthropological and biology circles.” That’s as may be, but that’s a far cry from the recycled social Darwinism that you were peddling.

    “You’ve read Dawkins and think you know it all. Well done.”

    I’m old, I’ve read Dawkins and many more, and I’m grumpy about people who abuse science for political ends.

  260. Tane 263

    Don’t worry r0b, I doubt we’ll see Roark round these parts for some time after the drubbing he took tonight. By the looks of it “Tane, go fuck yourself you smug commie fool” was his parting shot. He’s a class act all round, that Roark.

  261. r0b 264

    Tane – So it seems! Interesting thread here tonight, we seem so share some similar views. No surprise I guess. Thanks for The Standard, it was a job that needed doing.

  262. Gruela 265

    Extermination! I hope the smug little Fascist is crying into his pillow. Tane, you’re the man. rOb, you’re another man.

  263. r0b 266

    “rOb, you’re another man.” Cheers Gruela, but if I’m so manly, how come I’ve got to go and do the dishes now? Sigh. G’night all.

  264. the sprout 267

    bugger i miss all the fun. a real live frothing psuedo-evolutionary fascist. arbeit macht frei Roark, and you have a lot of arbeit to do.

  265. CMR 268

    Tane,

    My response to your clumsy rhetoric will hardly rank after your biting ad hominem dismissal of Roark,(Wnoever he/she is.) This is less of a debating forum than it is a sandpit cluttered by your personal bigotry. However if you own it you can do as you please within it as far as I am concerned.

    I follow your tabulations.

    a You assert that democracy requires a level of equality in the vein that it, democracy, is a first principle. It is not. It is a method constructed by both legislation and custom. In other words it is a device rather than a fundamental process and as such can be interpreted, amended etc at will. If parties wish to invest their own resources to assist in the operation of this device, it is simply a matter of personal choice. (It is also a choice to decry the intentions of our current nefarious government.)
    b “Has always been at the core of the left-right divide.” Always? The ownership of property was elevated to the apparent “core” by Marxism less than 130 years ago. This is “always?”

  266. Lampie 269

    Is there goiing to be a part 2 thread?

  267. Matthew Pilott 270

    CMR “You assert that democracy requires a level of equality in the vein that it, democracy, is a first principle. It is not. It is a method constructed by both legislation and custom. In other words it is a device rather than a fundamental process and as such can be interpreted, amended etc at will.

    So none of this equal rights bullshit then, no one-man one-vote rubbish?

    You’re mistaking the machinations of state with the underlying principle, and falsely asserting that the physical interpretation of democracy is all that exists – and that it is a device rather than a fundamental process.

    The ‘device’ and ‘process’ you refer to are one and the same, the method and process of a functioning democracy; you’re ignoring the founding principles of democracy.

    This makes sense though, if you think that freedom is indivisible. The next step in your logic, given you have no belief in an underlying democratic principle, would be one person/dollar per vote.

    If parties wish to invest their own resources to assist in the operation of this device, it is simply a matter of personal choice.” – if there is no underlying democratic principle I don’t think it would take long for a right-wing capitalistic government to take the step of allowing votes to be directly bought. Surely that would be a more pure expression of caputalism?

    However I think the principle would preclude this, because it would no longer be a Democracy!

  268. MikeE 271

    It was once the left who were defenders of human rights, now we have the labour party blog claiming the human rights are not absolute, and merely a useful social construct.

    hmmm

  269. CMR 272

    Matthew Pilott,

    You possess the same conceit as Tane in that you just know what other contributors think without reference to their words. I take it that illiteracy is the accepted norm on this site?? If I am wrong then I apologise.

    The only “underlying principle” in democracy is an adopted one by a series of inadequate politicians, that is to say,it maintains an illusion of equality, while destroying what you would identify as a founding principle. It has evolved to a cousin of mob-rule..ie 51% are in favour, therefore 49% are bludgeoned into acquiescence. Democracy no matter how it is supremely framed is a device to maintain order and acquiescence. Individual rights are wickedly shelved before the onslaught of a contrived majority. Ironically the process deserves the disdain the present “Clarxist government” affords it.

    You ridiculously assume that the investment of monies in the electoral process will be made by those who seek a “right-wing capitalistic” government. Is it not fair to suggest that the trades union of this country have set a remarkable precedent in achieving a series of victories for those governments that espouse other than “right-wing” policies? The compulsory snatching of funds from workers’ pockets to attain political success is democracy…is it? Enjoy your petty servitude!

  270. Tane 273

    I’m kind of sick of this thread so I’ll try not to jump back in entirely, but God you’re a bore CMR. I see you’re fond of the term “Clarxist” – did you make that up all by yourself, or is it one of Linz’s?

    I’m not pretending to understand what anyone thinks, but if someone says they’re a libertarian then I’ll debate them on libertarian theory. Roark tried but he failed to put forward a coherent argument., and all you’ve offered is a bog standard critique of majoritarianism and said you don’t like democracy because it impinges on your property rights (which you haven’t bothered to defend).

    You also seem to share a trait common to libertarians – a love of theory but very little knowledge of fact. Workers do not have election funds ‘compulsorily snatched’ from their pockets. You just made that up. Why would you do that unless you’ve got some kind of prejudice against solidarity and collective action?

    I also suspect you’ve never had a look at where the big private money in our election system comes from. (Here’s a hint: it’s not from the trade unions.)
    http://www.elections.org.nz/parties/donations_summary.html

    Very naive, CMR. Back to the libertarian fantasy novels for you.

  271. CMR 274

    So I am ASSUMED to be libertarian…I am a member of a compulsory trade union to which I am compulsorily tithed. The union is a creature of statute. This is a fact and not derived from fantasy novels or any other source your conceitedly imagine.I note that you assert I resent solidarity yet you happily lump me with Perigo and his ilk! Consistency of thought is not a blessing you have been endowed with.

  272. Tane 275

    CMR, you’re arguing classic libertarianism and you first posted on this site defending libertarianism in a thread about libertarianism. I’ve dealt with a few of you in my time and I can smell you from a mile away. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.

    If you live in New Zealand then you’re not a member of a compulsory trade union, nor are you compulsorily tithed. You’d be lying. You’re also wrong that unions are a creation of statute. Unions were being shut down and persecuted long before they became legally recognised.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_unions

    It would do you well to read some history CMR, because you won’t find any in Atlas Shrugged, and it makes you look silly when you try and talk to people who don’t share your rather strange belief system.

  273. CMR 276

    I live in NZ. I am a member of a compulsory trade union and I am compulsorily tithed to it, at least until 30th June 2008 when the law will change, and the union I am forced to be a member of will be re-configured. I am NOT a liar! I have been forced to be a member of this creature of statute since my admission in 1977. Think again!

    I have never read Atlas Shrugged or any other Rand literature.I am not a member of any political party, ginger-group or other organisation which may be even loosely portrayed as “political!”

    So much for your knowledgeable assumptions!

  274. Tane 277

    If you’re not a libertarian you share a strange likeness to them CMR – you should do some reading into it, you might be surprised.

    I’m not sure I can put this any more plainly: You are not a member of a compulsory trade union. Trade union membership is voluntary in this country, and has been for some time. I’m also not sure what law you’re referring to that’s supposed to come into place on June 30 next year.

    Would you care to tell me the name of your union and the name of law you’re referring to?

  275. Dean 278

    Tane said: “Would you care to tell me the name of your union and the name of law you’re referring to?”

    He’ll be grapsing at straws, whatever his answer is.

  276. Pascal's bookie 279

    He’ll be grasping something no doubt. I’m picking it’s some sort of professional body rather than a union.

    But, yep, he reeks of libertarianism. He hasn’t denied being one and thinks that we are fooled by his oh so sneaky ‘member of a group’ cornswaddle.

    So why don’t you either front up with some actual answers for us CMR, or piss off like Superman Roark boy. I think there’s still time for you both to catch that Freedom Ship linked to way way upthread.

  277. Tane 280

    By the way PB, that Freedom Ship article was the best link ever. I’m still laughing.

  278. Tane 281

    He’ll be grasping something no doubt. I’m picking it’s some sort of professional body rather than a union.

    Got it – it’ll be the Real Estate Institute. That’s not a trade union CMR, not even close.

  279. dave 282

    I think Insolent Prick wins here hands down

  280. Pascal's bookie 283

    Glad you liked the link Tane. I’ve never had any luck getting a response to it from a Libertarian.

    Have you read any of China Melville’s novels? If not I am pretty sure that you would love The Iron Council.

    And thanks for the ‘site.

  281. Tane 284

    Na, I haven’t but will look into it. Glad you like the site, thanks for helping to make it work.

  282. PhilBest 285

    You must have read Orwell, surely, Tane?

  283. Tane 286

    Yes, he’s a democratic socialist. So am I. What’s your point?

  284. the sprout 287

    Tane you’re supposed to burn books, not read them

  285. Tane 288

    Isn’t that going to be made compulsory under the EFB anyway?

  286. the sprout 289

    totally. Eliminate Fancy Booklearnin

  287. Santi 290

    “Isn’t that going to be made compulsory under the EFB anyway?”

    Tane,you’re nothing sophist. Go back to your cave, “bro”.

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    Labour | 23-07
  • National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates
    National has refused a briefing from a group of Maui's dolphins experts, whose research shows 80 per cent of New Zealanders want greater protection for the critically endangered dolphin, the Green Party said today.Dolphin campaigner Gemma McGrath and marine scientist...
    Greens | 23-07
  • MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour
    “Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week”, said MANA candidate for Mt Albert, Joe Carolan. “A good start would be for all Labour Auckland MPs and members to join the Justice for Palestine...
    Mana | 23-07
  • We must act to save our dolphins
    A new report makes it clear for the urgent need to protect Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins while arguing  it is clear that there is no need for further research, says Labour’s Conservation spokesperson Ruth Dyson.  “Labour backs the public call...
    Labour | 23-07
  • School told to manipulate national standards data
    Parents can have little confidence in the Government’s National Standards after an Auckland school was told to manipulate its data so it added up, Labour’s Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins. “Valley School in Pukekohe was advised in an email from the...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Regional economies must have tailored plans
    News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional economies, Labour’s MP for Hauraki-Waikato Nanaia Mahuta says. “The Canpac site has effectively responded...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Auditor General slams Shared Services project
    The Auditor-General’s Office could not have been more damning about the 18 months spent on the Central Agency Shared Services (CASS) project at the Finance and Expenditure Committee this morning, says Maryan Street, Labour’s State Services spokesperson.  ...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato
    The potential loss of up to 114 jobs from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton is a massive blow to the Waikato region which has already lost hundreds of jobs, Labour says. Labour’s Social Development spokesperson and Hamilton-based list MP Sue...
    Labour | 23-07
  • Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital
    The decision to reject the proposed flyover at the Basin Reserve must be taken as an opportunity to properly fund Wellington’s transport future and must not be used as an excuse to take resources away from the capital, Wellington Labour MPs...
    Labour | 22-07
  • National out of touch with the regions
    John Key is out of touch with regional New Zealand if he believes tinkering with council regulations will restore opportunities to small towns, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says. “While the regions are crying out for sustainable growth and job opportunities,...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Flyover rejection a victory for sustainable transport
    The rejection of the proposed Basin Reserve flyover by a Board of Inquiry is a victory for sustainable transport in Wellington and paves the way for other alternatives to be given a fair hearing, Wellington Labour MPs Grant Robertson and...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Reo Māori Policy Launch
    MANA will be launching its Reo Māori policy at 10am Thursday 24 July, at Matangireia (the old Māori Affairs Select Committee room at Parliament). We will also be addressing our concerns regarding the Minister of Māori Affairs Māori Language Strategy...
    Mana | 22-07
  • Basin Flyover decision victory for common sense
    The Green Party welcomed the Environmental Protection Authority's draft decision announced today not to allow the $90 million Basin Reserve flyover in Wellington to proceed."Both popular and expert opinion opposed the flyover. The proposal was expensive, unnecessary and would have...
    Greens | 22-07
  • Loss Leading could destroy Kiwi lamb’s reputation
    Meat companies that supply supermarkets and sell New Zealand lamb as a loss leader in the United Kingdom should lose their access to this valuable quota market, said Labour’s Primary Industries spokesperson Damien O’Connor. “Our reputation as a Lamb producer...
    Labour | 22-07
  • Ae Marika! 22 July 2014
    The big storm has gone, but the damage that it did and the saturation levels that it reached meant that smaller storms quickly overwhelmed roading, and water-flow systems again in the north. And although certain individuals are talking up the...
    Mana | 21-07
  • 2014 Roger Award nominations now open
    The Roger Award is for The Worst Transnational Corporation Operating in Aotearoa/New Zealand in 2014 Nominations are now open please visit the website to nominate the worst TNC in Aotearoa. You will need to include reasons why you think your...
    Mana | 21-07
  • Labour will revive the regions with new fund
    The next Labour Government will co-develop Regional Growth Plans for every region of New Zealand and will invest at least $200 million in a fund to create breakthrough opportunities for jobs and sustainable growth, Labour Leader David Cunliffe says....
    Labour | 21-07
  • Speech to Local Government New Zealand
    Speech to the Local Government New Zealand Conference 2014 Read our full regional development policy Download Introduction Early in my time as an MP I went for a long walk on a windswept Kare Kare beach with Waitakere mayor Bob Harvey. We talked...
    Labour | 21-07
  • Something Fishy About Nick Smith’s Game.
    NICK SMITH’S crude intimidation of the Fish and Game Council points to the bleakest of environmental futures should National be re-elected on 20 September. It is now considerably clearer than 60 percent of New Zealand’s lakes, rivers and streams that...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Key’s odd personal hypocrisy in Epsom, his kiss of death to the Maori Par...
    Aside from tricking Colin Craig into running in an electorate National can crush him in, John Key has announced three things in his election deals that are ill thought out. The first is his deal with the Maori Party. At a time...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Why it’s all over for the Conservative Party
    Whatever flirtations were made months ago to Colin Craig by National strategists, the polling must have come back showing them too much of their soft urban vote would walk if Key was in Government with Colin Craig.  The necessary inside muscle to...
    The Daily Blog | 28-07
  • Balance in the NZ Herald and has something gone terribly wrong at the Heral...
    So the ‘balance’ in the NZ Herald this year for the election will be… Guest columnists will include the acerbic Cactus Kate from the radical right, former Labour candidate Josie Pagani and broadcaster Mark Sainsbury. Right, so that would be...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Phew – National Party hubris seals strategy
    The National Party are bot listening to Matthew Hooton. Phew. Hooton has crunched the numbers and based on past polling National always drops 6 points come election day. National aren’t listening. Barging through the need to cut deals with all...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Noam Chomsky on the TPPA
    Noam Chomsky on the TPPA...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Unacceptable secrecy around labelling people terrorists
    It’s good to see the Sunday Star-Times attempting to get more information from government agencies about Daryl Jones, the Kiwi killed in a US drone strike in Yemen.  The paper is right to complain about the government’s refusal to provide...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • A critical deconstruction of John Key – what’s behind the facade?
    Aspiring national leaders need a popular narrative of their rise to power.  Once in office, the narrative can be refined to fit the requirements of leadership and re-election.  Such is the purpose of John Roughan’s John Key: Portrait of  a...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Radio Live – off Mark
    The Top Marks lasted five weeks on Mediaworks radio station The Sound. This may have something to do with last being relevant in the mid-1980s when there were only two commercial FM licences in Auckland and they were on one...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • Wellingtonians say ‘No!’ to Israeli aggression
    .   . Wellington, NZ, 26 July – About 600 Wellingtonians, and from further afield, met at the Cuba Mall Bucket fountain under a wintery sunny sky, to protest Israel’s continuing aggression in the Gaza strip, which – at the...
    The Daily Blog | 27-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Shasha Ali – I am an indigenous person but I will never call ...
    Yesterday was indeed a politically hectic day in Aoteaora New Zealand, especially if you are an activist that cares about both human and non-human animal rights. Protest actions were organised to demand an end to factory farming from about noon, and...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Pro-Israel, Pro-Palestine or ‘Pro-Peace’?
    Latest protest for people of Gaza in Auckland In the past couple of weeks I have heard a lot of people say that they are neither Pro-Israel nor Pro-Palestine; they are pro-peace. This is a stand that I respect. Everyone...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • So we can’t feed the kids, the poor OR the sick now?
    Let me get this straight. We can borrow $10 billion in tax cuts over the last 6 years for the richest NZers, but we can not feed the kids, the poor or even the sick now? Revealed: Warning over hospital food...
    The Daily Blog | 26-07
  • Kim Dotcom has said it, Laila Harre has said it and now David fisher says i...
    Fascinating piece by David Fisher in the NZ Herald breaking down how many opportunities the Government had to listen to officials and stop KDC entering the country and concludes KDC should never have been allowed in… It prepared papers for the...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • You, Me and the GCSB Public Meetings
      The GCSB and TICS legislation rushed through Parliament by John Key represent the largest erosion of civil liberties this country has seen since the 1951 Waterfront Lockout. In the post Snowden world we now know a mass surveillance state operating...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • A feminist takedown of Whale Oil
    Whale Oil does it again. How many more times is he going to attack and discredit Tania Billingsley publicly? In a short blog published on Wednesday ‘Nothing to be sorry for‘ Whale Oil also known as Cameron Slater, is defending John Key...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Curwen Ares Rolinson – New Zealand First – We’ll Be Back
    Earlier this week, Bomber penned a missive which set out in some detail why he thought my people, New Zealand First, wouldn’t be making it back into Parliament later this year. Being a pugnacious, vindictive sort who’d never let such an...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • The changes teachers DO want
    “Oh you teachers, you just want everything to stay the same – what’s wrong with choice?  Bloody teachers.  Typical that you don’t want testing – trying to hide that you’re all useless. What about our poor kids?  Gnash gnash rant rant...” That’s...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • A feminist take down of Whale Oil
    Whale Oil does it again. How many more times is he going to attack and discredit Tania Billingsley publicly? In a short blog published on Wednesday Nothing to be sorry for Whale Oil also known as Cameron Slater, is defending John Key...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • On so called Labour Party ‘distractions’
    The right wing of the Labour Party are constructing a narrative that Labour need to stop chasing distractions and focus on the real issues that matter and not these silly GCSB, inequality, domestic violence, media bias, TPPA issues. It is...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Selfies: Labour’s Electorate MPs are at it again
    IT’S A LITTLE TRIANGLE of grass at the corner of Rewa Street and Mt Eden Road, ideal for election hoardings. Wandering along Mt Eden Road last Saturday morning to our weekly appointment with the brunch menu at Orvieto, my family and...
    The Daily Blog | 25-07
  • Well, well, well – Jonathan Coleman did know about FBI interest into Kim ...
    Last years GCSB Town Hall meeting in Auckland Oh dear, the cover up and lies are starting to fall over now aren’t they… Coleman knew of FBI interest in Dotcom pre-residency decisionGovernment minister Jonathan Coleman knew the FBI was interested...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Why You Must March Against Factory Farming This Saturday, 12pm
    The rally this Saturday is critical because this is the FIRST TIME IN NEW ZEALAND HISTORY that a major party has agreed to ban all intensive factory farming practices. The Labour party, the Greens, Internet-Mana, the SPCA, SAFE and other...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Astronaut tweets photo of explosions over Israel and Gaza from space
      This is what a war zone looks like from space: From aboard the International Space Station, German astronaut Alexander Gerst tweeted this image as the station passed over Israel and Gaza in what he called ‘his saddest photo yet’....
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When Firstline are focusing on flag burning rather than dead Palestinian ch...
    The IDF are butchering children in UN schools this morning and what’s the big issue on TV3s Firstline? Flag burning. How pathetic, and what a slap in the face to Mike McRoberts who is currently risking his life in Gaza...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’
    ‘Victim’ vs ‘Terrorist’...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Petition asking TVNZ to stand Hosking down as election moderator jumps to o...
    In just a day the petition calling on TVNZ to replace Hosking as the election moderator has jumped to over 2500, you can sign it here. The defence that the Right are trying to run here is that John Campbell...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • When the mainstream media go feral: the descent into sheer farce, according...
    . . It had to happen, I guess… The media pack-campaign against Labour Leader David Cunliffe has managed to  plumb new depths of absurdity. On TV3, on 24 July,  TV3/Tova O’Brien ran this report on their 6PM News bulletin, about...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Coalition for Better Broadcasting: MIKE HOSKING FOR PM?
    Yes indeed. Mike Hosking is for the PM. And now he’s able to do even more as moderator (or should that be immoderator) of TVNZ’s election debates. Here at the Coalition for Better Broadcasting we feel it’s pretty safe to say that...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • The lie that “There is no alternative” to neo-liberal economic policies
    Supporters of President Maduro in Venezuela rally   Since the 1980s we have had drubbed into our heads that there was no alternative to the economic and social policies unleashed at that time. It even had it’s own acronym – TINA. The...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • A Kanaky tale of mining skulduggery and environmental courage
    Florent Eurisouké … still campaigning against mining. Photo: Del Abcede/PMC David Robie also blogs at Café Pacific AN EXTRAORDINARY story of mining skulduggery and a courageous struggle by indigenous Kanak environmental campaigners has been captured in a poignant new documentary,...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • UNBREAKING: The list of questions Mike Hosking will use in first TVNZ leade...
    “Good evening ladies and gentlemen and welcome to the first TVNZ leaders debate being held live in the gloriously beautiful Sky City ball room. It’s such a beautiful building boys and girls, we are so blessed to have Sky City...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Internet Party Party review
      I have been to A LOT of political party functions in my time, and they tend to be dull affairs at the best of times but what is happening with Internet MANA is something quite exciting. I went to...
    The Daily Blog | 24-07
  • Dear Seven Sharp – after learning Hosking will be the leaders debate ...
    I have to be honest, I had made the decision last night  to accept Seven Sharp’s hastily offered opportunity to appear on their show after I savagely criticised the bullshit whitewash story they did on John Key’s favourite far right hate speech...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates
    MIL OSI – Source: Green Party – Headline: National refuses meeting with Maui’s advocates Wednesday, 23 Jul 2014 | Press Release This is another reminder that the National Government does not care about the survival of the Maui’s dolphin National...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Message from CTU President Helen Kelly
    MIL OSI – Source: Unite Union – Headline: Message from CTU President Helen Kelly Dear MikeThere’s only 43 days until September 3, when voting in the General Election starts. The last day to vote is September 20.Thanks heaps for signing...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour
    MIL OSI – Source: Mana Movement – Headline: MANA Tamaki send a challenge to Labour Posted on July 23, 2014 by admin in Joe Carolan, Press Releases“Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week”,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • We must act to save our dolphins
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: We must act to save our dolphins A new report makes it clear for the urgent need to protect Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins while arguing  it is clear that there is no...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • School told to manipulate national standards data
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: School told to manipulate national standards data Parents can have little confidence in the Government’s National Standards after an Auckland school was told to manipulate its data so it added up, Labour’s...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Regional economies must have tailored plans
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Regional economies must have tailored plans News that up to 114 jobs could be lost from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton reinforces the need for a government plan to build resilient regional...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Auditor General slams Shared Services project
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Auditor General slams Shared Services project The Auditor-General’s Office could not have been more damning about the 18 months spent on the Central Agency Shared Services (CASS) project at the Finance and...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Fonterra job losses a massive blow to Waikato The potential loss of up to 114 jobs from Fonterra’s Canpac plant in Hamilton is a massive blow to the Waikato region which has...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital
    MIL OSI – Source: Labour Party – Headline: Basin flyover decision an opportunity for capital The decision to reject the proposed flyover at the Basin Reserve must be taken as an opportunity to properly fund Wellington’s transport future and must...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Indonesia: New President Widodo must make good on human rights pledges Indonesia’s new President Joko Widodo must deliver on campaign promises to improve Indonesia’s dire human rights situation, Amnesty International said....
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: Communities in Sierra Leone turn their backs on female genital mutilation While activists gather in London to discuss strategies to tackle female genital mutilation, communities across Sierra Leone have been taking...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression
    MIL OSI – Source: Amnesty International NZ – Headline: The Gambia: Activists mark 20 years of iron-fisted repression The Gambian government must abolish the laws and iron fisted practices that have resulted in two decades of widespread human rights violations,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • A blog from the front lines of Palestine: It’s time for a new narrative
    I don’t know if I follow trouble or if trouble follows me, but somehow I seem to have found myself near one of the world’s hotspots again. The difference this time is that instead of sitting in some obscure location,...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Michael Wood – The Path Ahead
    It’s well established that Labour has had a difficult couple of weeks. Getting back on to a successful path requires our focus to shift from looking inwards to outwards, heightened discipline, and inner conviction. While my assessment of New Zealand...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Employers liquidating companies to avoid paying minimum entitlements
    Across the union movement we have seen a number of documented cases now where companies are liquidating their business in order to avoid their legal obligations, in terms of paying the minimum entitlements to their workers. The most recent example...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • GUEST BLOG: Joe Carolan : Positively Controversial
    The protest in Auckland last weekend that the NZ Herald claimed was attend by only a hundred people. Labour should set the agenda and purposely do something positively controversial once a week. A good start would be for all their...
    The Daily Blog | 23-07
  • Forest & Bird supports Fish and Game’s freshwater advocacy
    The independent conservation organisation Forest & Bird is concerned over allegations the Fish & Game Council has been threatened over its advocacy for freshwater quality....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Time for Epsom to say “no deal”
    “Epsom voters will be disgusted by the deal announced today to try and once again gift their electorate to the ACT Party”, says Labour candidate for Epsom Michael Wood....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Petition for release the of seven Bah
    At the invitation of the Honourable Annette King the New Zealand Bahá'í community is presenting a petition to the House of Representatives asking the NZ government to demand the release of the seven former leaders of the Baha’i community in...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Capital gains in the capital city
    Victoria University will today be hosting a public debate on the merits of more comprehensive capital gains tax—a step which taxation expert Associate Professor Dr David White considers would be beneficial for New Zealand. Organised by student group Beta Alpha...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Te Kupenga supports efforts of anti-violence campaigner
    Te Kupenga Whakaoti Mahi Patunga – National Network of Stopping Violence Services (Te Kupenga) wholeheartedly endorses statements made by DJ, Kickboxer and Anti-Violence Campaigner Richie Hardcore this morning on TV3’s Firstline about the role of men...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • iPredict Ltd2014 Election Update #28
    The chances of a fiscal surplus in 2014/15 continue to plunge and are down to 50%, according to the combined wisdom of the 7000 registered traders on New Zealand’s online predictions market, iPredict. The forecast surplus is now just 0.22%...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • TPPA is a bad idea
    “Currently New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, Brunei, Vietnam, the USA, Japan, Malaysia, Canada, and Mexico are still negotiating the Trans-Pacific Partnership Agreement. Officially talks finished last August, but the reality is that they keep...
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Getting privacy right in our data future
    Privacy Commissioner John Edwards welcomes the release of the New Zealand Data Futures Forum’s report....
    Scoop politics | 28-07
  • Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good
    Conference on Democracy, Ethics and the Public Good A conference is to be held in Wellington on 1 and 2 August with the aim of starting a NZ-wide discussion about the quality of our democracy. The conference is hosted jointly...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Paddock to plate, and smart roads possible
    New Zealand’s international brand and exports could grow significantly with the creation of a data sharing ‘eco-system’ according to a paper released by the NZ Data Futures Forum today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ngapuhi wants to overthrow Maori King
    Ngapuhi is planning a hui for the end of the year – organised by iwi leader David Rankin – in which the future of the King Movement will be discussed....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Housing warrant of fitness little help for sick children
    A housing warrant of fitness has been promoted as a way of preventing sickness among children in poverty. The attached report shows that such a regime would have little impact on health outcomes but would come at a considerable cost,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Upcoming Fabian Events in Auckland
    Sue Bradford ’s PhD thesis, 'A major left wing think tank in Aotearoa—an impossible dream or a call to action?' looked at why no major left wing think tank has developed in Aotearoa and whether the left in 2010-2013 was...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Senior Citizens, Not Senile Citizens
    The Taxpayers’ Union is questioning the merits and costs of the “ No car? No problem! Getting around your community without a car” brochure, released by the Office for Senior Citizens. The brochure’s purpose is to explain to senior citizens...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • NZ Troops Hone Their Skills in Queensland
    Around 260 New Zealand troops are on a 25-day Australian-led warfighting exercise in Townsville, Northern Queensland....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Maritime Union backs Green Party call for shipping lanes
    The Maritime Union is backing the Green Party’s policy to implement compulsory shipping lanes for coastal shipping, announced today....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban
    Auckland Council Bypasses Public, Ditches Rodeo Ban The Auckland Council has announced that they are abandoning the rodeo ban on council land, put into place in 2008. This was done with virtually no consultation, says SAFE, the animal advocacy organisation....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor
    Ministers Tolley and Coleman urged to meet West Papuan visitor Police Minister Anne Tolley and Defence Minister Dr Jonathan Coleman have a rare opportunity this week to gain first-hand knowledge about Indonesian police and military activities in West...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Minister Right to Give Fish & Game a Serve
    Reacting to Radio New Zealand’s report concerning allegations that Conservation Minister Nick Smith warned the Fish and Game Council that it acts like a 'rabid NGO', Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union says:...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Government needs to get Fishing reform bill passed now
    The Maritime Union is urging the Government to push through a Bill reforming the fishing industry....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Ivory trade laws look set to tighten following petition
    A petition mounted by an Auckland schoolteacher has won the support of a powerful Select Committee and has moved the New Zealand closer towards a fully enforceable ivory trading ban....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Bilingual guide a demonstration of leadership
    “Waikato River Restoration: A Bilingual Guide” to the Waikato River that saw Tainui Waikato, Landcare Trust and the Waikato River Authority working together is a demonstration of rangatiratanga or leadership says Race Relations Commissioner...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Georgina Beyer to stand for MANA in Te Tai Tonga
    "It's great to have Georgie on board" said Hone Harawira, MANA Leader and Te Tai Tokerau MP. "She's strong-minded, stands up to be counted, and has fought for the rights of those who haven't had any - and won. That...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Sir Bob Harvey
    SUSAN Sir Bob Harvey was behind the transformation of Norm Kirk, and one of New Zealand's most popular Prime Ministers. He also advised Bill Rowling, David Lange and Helen Clark, the latter as Labour Party President. Wild Westie a new...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Rod Drury
    Xero boss Rod Drury told TVNZ’s Q+A programme what the political parties are offering at this election is ‘all too small.’ “There's no policy, all it is a bunch of incremental stuff. “All too small. What we want to do...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Q + A: Gerry Brownlee
    Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee Rules Out Fastracking Auckland’s City Rail Loop Transport Minister Gerry Brownlee told TV1’s Q+A programme this morning that he won’t be bringing forward an Auckland City Rail loop based on new figures showing...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey
    Lisa Owen interviews Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey Headlines: Australian Treasurer Joe Hockey suggests “we can move on some” changes to welfare for New Zealanders in Australia New Zealanders “brothers and sisters” who make “a massive contribution”,...
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • Flavell and Harawira on The Nation
    Lisa Owen interviews Maori Party leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana leader Hone Harawira Headlines: Hone Harawira says realistically his Mana Party can take three Maori seats, Te Ururoa Flavell sticks to prediction that Maori Party will win all seven....
    Scoop politics | 27-07
  • The Nation 26,27 July: Flavell & Harawira, Joe Hockey
    On The Nation this weekend…. With the Maori seats primed to play a pivotal role this election, Torben Akel reports from the key battlegrounds and meets the top contenders. Then the Maori Party co-leader Te Ururoa Flavell and Mana Party...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Announcement of New Zealand First Candidate for Rangitīkei
    New Zealand First has endorsed Dr Romuald (‘Rom’) Rudzki as the candidate for the Rangitīkei Electorate in the 2014 General Election....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Labour Offer Len Brown a Hotel Tax
    The Taxpayers’ Union is slamming the Labour Party's plan to allow councils to levy new 'pillow taxes' and regional petrol taxes. Reacting to this afternoon’s NZ Herald report Jordan Williams, Executive Director of the Taxpayers’ Union ,...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Cell phone evidence a first
    Cell phone evidence a first Evidence gathered solely from a cell phone has been used for the first time to convict a Hastings man for possessing child sexual abuse pictures. Michael Lawrence Worsnop, a 29-year-old orchard worker pleaded guilty to...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealand Aid Worker Helping in Gaza
    A New Zealand Red Cross nurse working in Gaza says she has never experienced anything like the current conflict in her long aid work career....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Parking officers deserve safety at work
    The union representing the Auckland Transport parking officer severely beaten on July 17 says everyone has a right to go about their job without fear for their safety....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Caritas Aotearoa NZ to provide Gaza humanitarian aid
    Caritas Jerusalem is providing medical assistance, food and other necessities to the thousands of vulnerable people affected by the escalating conflict in Gaza, and Caritas Aotearoa New Zealand is contributing an initial $20,000 to support the humanitarian...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • ALCP challenges parties to support Charlotte’s Web
    The leader of the Aotearoa Legalise Cannabis Party Julian Crawford is calling on all other political parties to state their position on using cannabis oil to treat pediatric epilepsy....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Oxfam accepts cheque from Pacific Corporation Foundation
    Oxfam New Zealand has accepted a cheque for almost $1000 today from the Pacific Corporation Foundation toward recovery efforts in the Solomon Islands, following April’s flash flooding that left thousands homeless....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Draft report and decision – Pūhoi to Warkworth proposal
    The Ara Tūhono – Pūhoi to Wellsford Road of National Significance: Pūhoi to Warkworth section Board of Inquiry has released its draft report and decision....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • New Zealanders willing to pay tax to protect dolphins
    A report released this week shows a large majority of New Zealanders want Maui’s and Hector’s dolphins protected and they are prepared to pay for it....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Stop Smart Meters
    “The Democrats for Social Credit Party (DSC) wholeheartedly endorses the Stop Smart Meters campaign for a moratorium on installations of smart meters until the technology is proven not be a risk to health, and until home owners are given a...
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Maori Roll Electors Urged to Vote Strategically
    Voters enrolled in the seven Maori electorates must learn to maximize their influence by voting strategically, according to the Maori Party candidate for Te Tai Tokerau, Rev Te Hira Paenga....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Politicians Ignore Families’ Concerns on Street Prostitution
    Family First NZ says that politicians are ignoring the concerns of families, lack the will to take appropriate action, and are happy to drag the ongoing problem of street prostitution into the next parliamentary term....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Plunket celebrates Te Wiki o te Reo Māori
    Plunket is proud to celebrate Te Wiki o te Reo Māori (21-27 July), with Plunket people across the country among several thousand New Zealanders taking part and increasing their kete of knowledge in te reo....
    Scoop politics | 25-07
  • Coleman must quit or be sacked over Dotcom case
    Immigration New Zealand has done the right thing in distancing itself from Jonathan Coleman’s claims that ministers were not aware of FBI involvement in Kim Dotcom’s residency application, says the Internet Party. Internet Party leader Laila Harré...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Auckland Councillors, Not Emperors
    25 JULY 2014 Responding to the NZ Herald report that Auckland Councillors have voted to keep their ratepayer-funded business class travel perks, and considered new rules that would have exempted councillors from Auckland City's parking charges, Taxpayers’...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Cunliffe Looks Dodgy Lunching with Sex Offender
    Conservative Party Leader Colin Craig says that David Cunliffe's social meeting with a known sex offender while on holiday "looks pretty dodgy."...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Taxpayers’ Union Back LGNZ Calls For Greater Transparency
    The Taxpayers’ Union is backing Local Government New Zealand’s calls for the Official Information Act to be extended to cover the Local Government Commission. Union Executive Director, Jordan Williams, says:...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Lecture series to provide insight into 2014 election
    Could National’s refusal to reform MMP lead to the defeat of the government? Is the media providing voters with the information they require to make an informed electoral decision? What directions might John Key’s leadership take if he secures...
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • National Rally Against Factory Farming
    Animal advocates and members of the public all over New Zealand will unite for a ‘National Day of Action Against Factory Farming’ Saturday, tomorrow 26 July in response to two recent exposés that showed horrific conditions on pig factory farms....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
  • Women in Politics Finds Support at Conference
    Women in Politics, a brand-new organisation for New Zealand women in political office, was met with overwhelming support at the 2014 Local Government New Zealand Conference held this weekend in Nelson....
    Scoop politics | 24-07
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