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Butterfly upon a wheel, or we haven’t changed

Written By: - Date published: 11:20 pm, December 9th, 2012 - 250 comments
Categories: democratic participation, labour - Tags:

Back five years ago*, when The Standard was founded by people like Ralph, Irish, Lynn, Tillerman, and Tane, it stood for a few basic Leftwing principles. Pro-worker, pro-environment, pro-equity, and anti-elitist. And it saw a Labour-led Left government as the best vehicle to achieve those goals. Much of the crew has changed but the values and the goals haven’t. The Standard is still The Standard; we’re still fighting for a Labour-led government. If a couple of senior Labour MPs now view it as a threat, it’s not because we have changed.

You may recall, as I do, when Clare Curran launched Labour’s Open Government policy as a crowd-sourced, Internet-based policy. A New Zealand first, that was welcomed as a democratisation of the party and New Zealand politics. Members thought this new approach, along with Red Alert, was the beginning of a new age. And the members are still striving for the ideals underlying that open, non-hierarchical approach as witnessed by the newly democratic leadership rules and the coming changes to electorate and list selection.

But the mood has changed in Labour’s own elite. Now, a senior Labour MP has written a letter to the New Zealand Council trying to stamp on debate by party members online. The MP has singled one individual commentator in particular for attack in the letter (don’t worry, you know already if it’s you) after using back-end data from Red Alert to identify them.

To be clear, a senior MP is attempting to change the membership rules of the party to punish a member for writing somethings that the MP doesn’t agree with in the comments section of blogs (which everyone knows Labour MPs don’t read anyway). Talk about breaking a butterfly upon a wheel. Talk about abusing your institutional power in an attempt to insulate yourself from criticism, no matter the cost to the party itself.

Apparently, the letter also included reference to bringing The Standard ‘back into line’. Which is funny, because I remember those conversations when we set up this site – and none of us talked about toeing any party’s line. We talked about countering the Right’s dominance of the blogosphere, providing a Left voice on issues the msm doesn’t cover, acting as a loose collective, and kicking Tory arse whenever possible.

When The Standard began, Labour was a 40% party. Now, it is a 30% party. And this shit is why. It is this siege mentality, this constant threat of purging if you don’t toe the line that has driven good people from Labour and seen shocking results like Dunedin South going blue for the first time ever on the party vote, and Labour becoming a third party in Wellington Central. In those five years, The Standard hasn’t changed, Labour’s base hasn’t changed, and the New Zealand population hasn’t really changed. But something has changed, for the worse.

Ironically, senior Labour MPs, who are now trying to suppress members and non-members’ personal opinions, have resisted all attempts by their own media staff to exercise message discipline over their online activities. Or, perhaps, that isn’t ironic at all. Don’t both the attempts to shut down dissenting membership voices and the refusal to accept messaging advice both reflect an elitist outlook that puts personal power ahead of responsibility to the party?

So, how about we stop the siege mentality shit, stop trying to stomp on anyone who doesn’t agree with you 100% of the time, and get on with winning the next bloody election? Sounds like a winning plan to me.

*(we forgot to celebrate our 5th birthday! oops)

250 comments on “Butterfly upon a wheel, or we haven’t changed”

  1. Madame Hydra Viper 1

    There are increasingly effective search engines out there, these days ..

  2. I’ll admit, I’ve always been leary of the “Open Government” project because … I mean, seriously people, if we can’t avoid timeless classic political-satire tropes in our policy names we’ve got to be done for, right?

    I too LOL at the notion of The Standard ever having had “a line” that it needed to be brought back to.

    • felixviper 2.1

      Well spotted. Whenever I think of Clare’s “open govt” project I think of David Farrar participating in Labour policy-making, and of the Labour MPs who thought that was something to be excited about.

      Then I usually throw up in my mouth, just a little bit.

      • pete 2.1.1

        So you’re saying you don’t want the people you don’t like commenting and contributing publicly?

        Irony.

        • karol thrace viper 2.1.1.1

          Pete, known National Party propagandists, information distORters, thread-derailers, smear-leaders and cheerleaders, of course support opennness in all political parties. Looking forward to the Nats opening up their policy development to Standard posters and commenters.

          • pete 2.1.1.1.1

            Fair enough.

            BTW I support you guys on this issue. This alleged silencing attack and intimidation is not the Kiwi way. Or any way.

          • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 2.1.1.1.2

            To add to the colourful invective for idiot, malicious, treacle-headed trollers, I think the Red Dwarf term ‘smegheads’ would be particularly suitable.

        • felixviper 2.1.1.2

          That’s not what irony means pete.

          And no, you’re wrong. I don’t want people who have devoted their lives to undermining the interests of the labour movement being involved in the Labour party at all.

          • McFliper 2.1.1.2.1

            Not that “Labour not taking advice from tories” is the same as “tories not being allowed to offer advice”, anyway.

            • felixviper 2.1.1.2.1.1

              In theory, sure. The way this lot operate though, it’s pretty much the same thing.

              • King Kong

                You probably don’t want to hear this, but my “tory” advice to you would be to remain an inconsequential, angry little man on the internet. It’s people like you that make the left what it is today.

                • vto viped

                  Why would anyone be angry with the state of affairs under this corrupt government king kong? Do you imagine such anger is unjustified?

                  • King Kong

                    Yes, unless you are;

                    a) Using “the Government” as a scapegoat for your own personal failures

                    or

                    b) A political junkie having problems accepting that you are on the losing team.

                    • vto viped

                      Oh yes that’s exactly right king kong. ” Using “the Government” as a scapegoat for your own personal failures”

                      like having democratic principles completely and utterly trashed by lying pricks and dirty thieving bastards so that they can get their hands on resources they were otherwise unable to

                      yeah, personal failure.

                      personal failure to not take it to them personally would be about the only personal failure.

                    • thatviperishguynz

                      Or perhaps.
                       
                      C)  This government really is crap and doesn’t give a hoot about the people or the country.

                    • Populuxe1

                      d) All of the above

                • felixviper

                  Ooh yay, advice from KK, the all-seeing arse of the internet.

                  Think I’ll stick to taking advice from people who have demonstrated an ability to process at least one coherent thought at some time in their lives, thanks.

    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 2.2

      When the “OpenLabourNZ” initiative was announced feedback was sought from all and sundry in what we now know was just a stage-managed bit of theatre. Clare Curran posted on Red Alert

      http://blog.labour.org.nz/2010/04/30/openlabournz-how-it-will-work/

      …that she wanted “…to hear all your ideas, suggestions, and the issues you think are important regards open and transparent government. At this stage any contribution is welcome and valid, no matter how left field.”

      I posted a comment that I thought an examination of absolute parliamentary privilege would be worthwhile. The notion that one can have total immunity from prosecution for things said or done while in the House collides with an enormous mishmash of concepts including freedom of speech, anon/pseudonymity, personal responsibility, and reputation that are themselves struggling to accommodate 21st-century communications.

      So anyway I thought it was a valid point to ma–BOOM, comment deleted, BOOM, permanent ban from Red Alert.

      There’s “open” and there’s “open”.

      • One Tāne Viper 2.2.1

        Clare Curran isn’t a Tory. She’s a Maoist.

        “…enticed the snakes out of their caves.” Snakes? It’s all becoming clear.

      • the sprout 2.2.2

        It seems vacuous window dressing, and dirty tricks to compensate for the lack of cogent argument, has really become the sine qua non of the current Labour caucus.

        • QoTViper 2.2.2.1

          The “#OpenLabourNZ” category on Red Alert makes for hilariou, disjointed reading. Somebody doesn’t seem to understand how categorising things works.

      • Colonial Weka 2.2.3

        Did Labour publish any outcomes from their OpenLabourNZ initiative?

  3. ColonialPete 3

    I’ve just donated $10.00 to The Standard as a token of my esteem. Kia kaha.

    • Jim Viperald - Once was colonised 3.1

      Happy Birthday to The Standard which has been providing the beacon of hope during dark times in the past few years that I have read and left comments here.

      And given events of the past week, The Standard has again been bringing light to issues vital for democracy and integrity in NZ.

      I will offer a little birthday donation when I am next at the bank.

  4. fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 4

    Astonishing really that a right-of-centre party feels it has some kind of ownership over a left-wing blog. So whats next must be member culling I suppose.

    • felixviper 4.1

      Yep, a good time to cull a few lefty members and discourage other lefties from joining.

      Don’t want too many of them hanging around come February.

      • Colonial Weka 4.1.1

        Nah, it’s just the bloggers they want to cull, and who cares because everyone knows that bloggers don’t vote.

        • felixviper 4.1.1.1

          Yeah bloggers don’t vote and no-one reads blogs anyway.

          • Colonial Weka 4.1.1.1.1

            And those thousands of people that do read the Standard are a waste of space as they don’t vote either!! Nor do they talk to people who vote.

            • Viper Anne 4.1.1.1.1.1

              Rumour has it, there’s been a massive increase in sales of dark coloured curtains.

  5. tc 5

    The bullying behaviour of these senior MP’s says volumes for their incompetence, intolerance and general fear of being challenged in a contest of ideas and principles because they’ll lose, like they and the party have been for awhile now.

    Getting stuck into the messenger rather than digest and act upon the message shows you how far from core values they’ve come.

    Bravo say the hollowmen our plan’s working ! They look like the self serving toughers we are, sad truth is too many are.

  6. Happy 5th birthday the Standard (please don’t punish me lprent!).

    And what a present given to you by a certain member of the parliamentary Labour Party.

    An acknowledgement of your relevance and importance that things that you say which are not pleasing yet which are true have to be stopped somehow.

    Good luck with that … 

  7. vto viped 7

    Clare Curran and her fellow goons, if they have the conviction of their beliefs of course, should come on here and explain themselves.

    Otherwise the appearance is entirely of suppression. Suppression is what Hitler did, Stalin did, countries at war do, Assad does, basically all dictatorships and oppressors do.

    See ya later labour – I’m staying well clear. Don’t want your shit ruling over us again..

    • I hope those MPs planning on an ongoing career in Labour consider the disasterous effects Curran and the ABC are having on their prospects and cat accordingly.

  8. karol thrace viper 8

    It’s depressing that the Labour caucus has so completely lost it’s way.  And just when a principled left wing Labour caucus is needed to set the country in a new direction in difficult times.
     
    They are more focused on pandering to the righties in the MSM by pulling in people like Tamihere: somone who openly attacks supportive sections of the LP membership and (once were) voters.  Such faux working-classism, doesn’t disguise a caucus leadership working mostly for the middle-classes.

    • just saying 8.1

      Lots of people who like to think of themselves as middle-class aren’t represented by Labour. It represents the interests of the well-washed, planning the next overseas holiday, 15 different cheeses in the fridge at all times, lavish “bach” in Taupo/Wanaka/ Queenstown/ Bay of Islands, smug, and very comfortable middle-class. (And the elites above them). This is the warm pool from which the Labour Party caucus is drawn, this is the world they inhabit, and the people they understand and represent. Ironically, the Greens have more representatives from genuinely working class/ humble middle-class backgrounds -that is they actually have some – and it shows in their policies.

      What was considered middle-class when I was a kid has become widely dispersed with many now much wealthier than the middle-class of more egalitarian times could have dreamed of, and many more, of course, struggling harder, and really only aspiring to be comfortable and secure.

      If the Labour Party is to survive, its representatives must become representative. History has shown that relying on the wealthiest 20 percent to act in the interests of the majority is just never going to happen.

    • David Viperious H 8.2

      And then the problem becomes getting them out, either by Not voting for them, or when they are picked for their seat. so it’s not only the getting them out, it’s who do we have to replace them with ? it’s no good getting them out, to end up with a bunch that’s even worse. Surely the Labour has some talent left that’s eligible to go up against the incumbents.

      • Dr Terry 8.2.1

        David VH. Surely? Under the dictatorial Shearer? Some hope!

        • David Viperious H 8.2.1.1

          Well, you never know and there is still 2 years to go, so we live in hope. However if this lot keep on the way they are going, and Shearer is still in charge, then they could be the 3rd party behind the Greens in 2014.

      • geoff 8.2.2

        Hypothetically speaking: how would, for example Mallard, be gotten rid of? How would you replace him in his electorate with a different labour (or green) MP?

        • David Viperious H 8.2.2.1

          Taken aside by a more senior man, and have the benefits of retirement explained to him.

    • Stephen 8.3

      As far as I can see, this is about one MP, taking their own proposal to the NZ Council, which is not the caucus, and not getting anywhere with it. So “it’s depressing that the Labour caucus has so completely lost it’s way” seems like an overstatement. Conversely, has Tamihere been “pulled in”? It took a lengthy decision making process even to allow him to rejoin — remember, he wasn’t even allowed into the conference. Again, overstatement.

      • QoT 8.3.1

        If it were just a random MP, sure. But this is the spokesperson for communications, the Party’s anointed Person Who Understands How Interwebs Works, who’s well known for making big heady pronouncements about Open Government and then turns around and tries to bully people out of expressing an opinion she doesn’t like.

  9. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9

    “When The Standard began, Labour was a 40% party. Now, it is a 30% party.”

    See, they’re right.

  10. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10

    If they’re prepared to do this to their friends, what will they be prepared to do to people who do not support them if they ever get into government?

    Maybe some of you need to reconsider whether the proposed EFA was really so benign.

  11. Disgraceful behaviour from Curran. I would really like to see a complaint laid with the NZ council against her.

  12. Tautoko-viper 12

    So , which of the following has been more damaging to the Labour Party?
    Shane Jones, John Tamahere or CV’s comments?

  13. I have frequently opposed The Standard, been banned a couple of times, and often come here to fire broadsides or stir the pot a little.

    On this matter however I support you guys. If the allegations that a Labour MP is bullying Labour Party members who comment anonymously on blogs (as is their perogative) are correct, it is an act both of stupidity and considerable malice, and should be broadly denounced. And Labour’s leaders (David Shearer and Moira Coatsworth) should acknowledge what is reportedly going on, nip it in the bud and apologise to those who have been intimidated.

    • felixviper 13.1

      Yep. As far as I’m concerned if Shearer doesn’t stomp on and apologise for this bullshit then he’s sanctioning it.

    • Lprent, forgive the name change please. I write this comment in my day job capacity.
      Clare Curran is going under the bus in Truth this week.
      The open government, anti cyber bullying champion of the Labour party has gone too far.
      If it were a national MP threatening a blogger in this way I would be equally as angry as the commenters here clearly are.
      Each and every time things seem to be calming down a little for the Labour party one of the MPs seems to slip the strait jacket and create another scat storm.
      This ranks right up their with Mallard and the way they got rid of Erin Leigh whose purity may have been just a little bit suspect.
      The only positive (if you can call it that) is that at least it has given mumbles a bit of a break from the vitriol.

      [lprent: Just at present we’re having to accept large numbers of name changes :) and let them through moderation. There isn’t a policy against changing your handle. There is a policy against changing it too often because it wastes moderator time – we have to check and release each change in name or e-mail. This is mostly to stop people who are banned from just changing name and astroturfers from “creating debate” by talking to themselves. ]

  14. KhandallaMan-an Absolutely Fabulous Viper 14

    Happy birthday The Standard and than you to Lyn, the principal contributors and the bloggers.  It is handy to see the founding principles re-stated:

     ” it [stands] for a few basic Leftwing principles. Pro-worker, pro-environment, pro-equity, and anti-elitist. And it [sees] a Labour-led Left government as the best vehicle to achieve those goals. Much of the crew has changed but the values and the goals haven’t. The Standard is still The Standard; we’re still fighting for a Labour-led government.  “

  15. In May of this year I wrote a post titled
    David Shearer, Globalism and the International Institute for Strategic Studies or why you should be very careful in the next election
    Based on my conclusions in the post Labour’s behaviour and most especially Shearers conduct with regards to Cunliffe and Clare Curran and her thuggish behaviour does not come as a surprise.

  16. debatewatcher viper 16

    Bryce Edwards has a post out (http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2012/12/clare-curran-the-standard-and-the-state-of-the-labour-party.html) which ends with the following:

    Nonetheless, it’s kind of ironic to draw attention to Clare Curran’s recent press statement: Cyber bullying must be dealt with intelligently.

    The press release by Clare Curran (http://www.clarecurran.org.nz/speeches2.php?speech_id=247) opens with:

    Cyber-bullying must be addressed so that the internet can be a more enjoyable community for everyone to be involved in, says Labour’s Communications spokesperson Clare Curran.

    “Cyber bullying is all too common in the virtual world, and more needs to be done to address the problem. It is important people, and children in particular, are free to enjoy the internet without fear of bullying and intimidation.

    Hear hear! :smile:

  17. Matthew Hooton 17

    Clare Curran is not a senior Labour MP. She is a twit. Remember Erin Leigh.

    PS. Congrats on five years. You are by far the number one left blog (except Dim-Post but that is in a different category).

  18. Ennui in Requiem Mass for CV 18

    PS Happy Birthday Standard…much singing and praise from Purgatory, you give poor souls a vision of what can be…thank you for the hard work keeping the beacon alive over the last 5 years.

  19. Peter 19

    Well, I’ve been pondering this for the past few days. It’s certainly been a “interesting” time on the blogs, in the sense of that most famous of old Chinese curses – “may you live in interesting times”.

    I’ve been astonished by the sense of solidarity for a fellow blogger, one that some of you don’t agree with, and one who remains anonymous. But yet, by the comments of support and the changing of names, there’s a sense here of real community.

    Is this a real community emerging here, a real nationwide left wing (well, largely) community? It appears so.

    The next question is, are members of this community prepared to do something more about it than post on blogs that Labour MPs never read, and actually make a difference beyond the commentariat (on which we are currently making a real difference)?

    If so, then we are a force to be reckoned with.

    • David Viperious H 19.1

      “The next question is, are members of this community prepared to do something more about it than post on blogs that Labour MPs never read,”

      If they never read them, then why are they up in arms about them?? I think they have been LYING to you and they have been peeking, and they are scared!

      • Peter 19.1.1

        I’m taking the piss. Of course they read them. It takes up a disproportionate amount of their time. The best MPs, as I recall it, were the technophobes who hated or didn’t understand the internet. They got stuff done. Not many of them left now.

        • Just viping 19.1.1.1

          Ironically, this issue might see some disciplinary action. Not because of how the membership and wider left feels, but because of the widespread criticism it has attracted from the right-wing blogs.

          • Jim Viperald - Once was colonised 19.1.1.1.1

            “might see some disciplinary action” – disciplinary action by who?

  20. VIPERRRM 20

    This is the best thing I have ever read on The Standard.

    I’ve seldom agreed with much that Colonial Viper said, but these allegations about Labour Party behaviour are frightening and show how far the party has fallen… and how much needs to be fixed before they can be considered fit to run the Government.

    Believe our party line… or face the consequences.

    Not the sort of people I would vote for. As long as he/she remains a Labour MP, the person behind this will remain an obstacle to me voting Labour.

    And I say this as someone who has only ever voted left.

  21. ianmac 21

    Keeping Stock of Vipers On this matter however I support you guys. If the allegations that a Labour MP is bullying Labour Party members who comment anonymously on blogs (as is their perogative) are correct, it is an act both of stupidity and considerable malice, and should be broadly denounced. And Labour’s leaders (David Shearer and Moira Coatsworth) should acknowledge what is reportedly going on, nip it in the bud and apologise to those who have been intimidated.

    I agree and point to the “if.” So much venom has been generated by this yet there is no categorical proof. It would seem reasonable that before the gallows are wheeled out, some proof of evil should be presented. If Right Wing blogs accused, condemned, and executed with such enthusiasm there would be outrage. All I see is some individual commentators leaping with glee at every little real or imagined shadows. No doubt these commentators believe that by their hurling abuse at leadership then they will be doing a great service to the Left (whatever that is.)
    Reads like inciting to mob rule to me.

    Anthony’s column “Fairfax Makes Three”, was a breath of fresh air. And needed.

    • Anon 21.1

      I’ve seen the letter. It exists, it is from Clare Curran to the NZ Council, and The Standard authors’ representations of it are accurate. It specifically targets Colonial Viper and talks about a need to do something to bring The Standard into line.

      Obviously I can’t reveal my identity because I don’t want to be targeted and defamed myself. But ask around if you have political contacts. Enough people have seen this letter, which is why no one in a senior position in Labour will deny it.

      • ianmac 21.1.1

        Thankyou Anon and others. If an MP writes such a letter is it not a democratic right to write that the critics should belt up? (And get no support.)
        Maybe what she is getting at is the big picture; that the probable corrosive effect of endless pretty strong criticism is to diminish the support for the Party. (They always seem to be scrapping amongst themselves. National seems much more stable.)
        The loss of anonymity via Red Alert is another story. Serious.
        On a personal level I have always found the vitality and fairness on the Standard a must read daily.
        In recent times the vitriol over leadership of Mr Shearer and of Senior MPs is very off putting. And remember that blogs usually have 90+ readers for every one who comments.
        The enemy is not the Labour Party.

        • Colonial Weka 21.1.1.1

          ” The enemy is not the Labour Party.”
           
          I agree. And the enemy is not the Standard or the left blogosphere either.
           
          There is major conflict between the left and right within Labour though, and I can’t see that going away any time soon.
           
           

          • David Viperious H 21.1.1.1.1

            ” The enemy is not the Labour Party.”

            The enemy is those who would use the party to further their own ends. Rather than for the good of the party, and the voters.

          • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21.1.1.1.2

            Hmmmm what I see is a complete disregard for the members by the MP’s , little engagement and little accountability. labour by definition should be as strong as the last drop of blood of the last standing member.
            This is not just a fight about left wing right wing within labour but for the very soul of the party.
            We the member Demand a voice, we demand a better organisation, we demand better representation, not for power, not for ourselves but for the betterment of all new zea landers.
            Give us the tools to reconnect to reorganise and create the traction within the electorate that is missing.
            We need to win in 2014.
            We need to mobilise now.

        • Anon 21.1.1.2

          I agree, ianmac, that the enemy is not the Labour Party. How could it be? We are the Labour Party.

          Unfortunately though, there are some in the Labour caucus who believe the enemy is the Labour Party. Chris Hipkins, Shearer’s senior whip, is on record telling Chris Trotter that the real enemies are internal, not external. http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2012/11/david-cunliffes-pride.html

          I’ve also been told quietly by a few ABCers and their proxies that ‘the real enemy is within’ and ‘the real enemy is on the left’.

          These aren’t idle comments – these people want us gone. They don’t want democracy and they don’t want anyone with ability in a position senior enough to threaten their position. We saw this in the way Cunliffe was treated and this creepy Stalinist behaviour from Curran is just the latest example. There’s plenty more like this that never sees the light of day. There’s a toxic and authoritarian culture in the ruling clique in caucus and frankly what I’ve seen has made even me as a loyal Labour Party member wonder at times whether this group are fit to govern.

          So, as a loyal Labour Party member what do you do about it? Sit down, shut up and deliver leaflets like good, uncritical obedient party apparatchiks? Screw that. This is our party they’re destroying and we have a right and a duty to take it back. These people are our delegates, they’re not our masters, and I think it’s time they were reminded of it. Roll on February.

          • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21.1.1.2.1

            Words ate all fine but action are stronger than words.
            The LEC and branches, the members must take a stand….stand up stand up be counted and make sure that the real labour party is about inclusiveness and not some sop a party for petty polarised marginalised barrow pushers.
            This is new zea landers true party, make it so, scotty.

        • VIPERRRM 21.1.1.3

          There’s going to be “endless pretty strong criticism” as long as the parliamentary party looks weak, confused, and out of touch with reality.

          the solution is to fix the problems that are drawing criticism, not to silence the critics and say “now now, we must all try to get along”…

        • NoseViper (The Nose knows) 21.1.1.4

          ianmac 21.1.1
          I think you are understating the case and taking fairness too far. MPs should expect that they will receive varying degrees of criticism. There was no more against the woman being discussed than any others of her cohort I don’t think.

          The anxiety that has led to the constant sniping and outspoken comments is, as I understand the main motivation, that the present period is seen as a tipping point for the direction of the Labour party. It is not enough just to agree on a leader, it is not enough if that leader commits himself and the Party publicly to greatly needed policy on housing. There is a wall of policy problems to be addressed, apart from the announced housing idea. To deal with it requires new thinking, with a socially progressive approach, not that dumb derisive patronising knee-jerk authoritative one indicated by Shearer more than once which I think is a killing point against any hope that he could be the right one to be intelligently compassionate.

          The time for Labour to cast off its constricting and protective chrysalis and emerge as new New Labour is now. Otherwise we will drag on with these weak-tea middle way policies that don’t deal with the fundamentals of jobless, hopeless people languishing in poverty.

          Then there is the situation where people’s names are leaked. That shows a lack of integrity in Labour, especially sensitive when they are drawing attention to the MSD shortcomings. Perhaps Old Labour will do the same when they are, if they are, in power. Then most people will see their National Lite substance behind the mirrors. But there will be further rents in the beliefs about our country and its abilities and standards.

    • Colonial Weka 21.2

      “All I see is some individual commentators leaping with glee at every little real or imagined shadows.”
       
      That’s a misrepresentation of what is happening. It comes down to whether you trust people like Lynn, CV, Irish Bill, Peter etc or not. I trust them as far as it has gone, because their reputations are on the line here and I don’t believe they would make this shit up, nor would they inflate it or gossip based on rumour. There is a risk that they are wrong, and I would certainly feel better if the actual letter was leaked, but in the meantime I trust them.
       
      If you don’t trust them, that’s fine, say so. But don’t marginalise the very real concerns here by misrepresenting what has happened.
       
      ” Reads like inciting to mob rule to me.”
       
      That’s a tired old internet tool of suppression. When lots of people talk about something you disagree with, call it mob rule. There is anger here, very real, righteous anger. Sometimes how that gets directed crosses over a line, but not very far and not by most people, and I certainly don’t see ts authors instigating or enouraging people to mob Shearer or the ABCs. That you cannot tell the difference between mob rule and expression of opinion is of itself interesting.

    • Jim Viperald - Once was colonised 21.3

      Hi ianmac

      I remember you well from my early days when I started to read TS, and I followed your comments and Anne’s closely.

      The comments by Anon and Colonial Weka (at 21.1 and 21.2) and Anne (at 23, re the first sentence) are consistent with my understanding and knowledge of what is happening. I would like to disclose some more details but my personal judgment advises me that, for now, it is for the key people involved to say what they wish or need to say, as and when appropriate for them and for the circumstances that arise.

      • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21.3.1

        The key people are running scared seriously, this isn’t playground stuff but figurative knee capping stuff when a sitting MP goes after your scalp.

        Me personally, I’ve sat the last ten years out waiting waiting for the wheel to line up….it’s the decade of the collective member to rise and demand change, direction and something NEW…a NEW pathway not left or right, not third, socialist or social, not Tory or leftie not something new…a green skinnd red brown something..
        Time for the members to be heard.

    • Well said ianmac. I was very careful in my choice of words, but I have also have have contact from people from the Left who corroborate the allegation. The best thing that Shearer could do would be to take ownership of this mess, apologise, and tell Ms Curran politely to pull her head in and stop behaving like those of whom she has been so critical in the past.

      • Neoleftie friend in arms of CV 21.4.1

        Best the elite caucus can do is speed up democracy within the party.
        Everyday I see the great unwashed wash around my steps, forlorn no hope on their faces…why why should people be nothing more than objects.
        First step change the peoples party then change society.

    • QoTViper 21.5

      If Right Wing blogs accused, condemned, and executed with such enthusiasm there would be outrage.

      Calling bullshit on that one, ianmac. Currently, yes, when e.g. W****O** makes wild unsubstantiated accusations about left-wing people, lefties cry foul.

      But if e.g. DPF posted “I have reason to believe a senior National MP has [insert political bullshit here]” then I’m pretty sure plenty of people across the spectrum would assume DPF knows what he’s talking about.

  22. Pathetic.  How much more damage will this anti-democratic, anti-left, anyone-but-Cunliffe, Key-rather-than-Cunliffe, neo-liberal/’third way’/don’t-know-what-we-believe/scared-of-anyone-on-the-left-who-does, corrupted power-before-principle boomer(+suck-up) political sociopaths do before they lose the power they currently hold over Labour?

  23. Anne 23

    The proof is there ianmac. But sometimes it is better that only those who need to see it should see it. I think this is one of those occasions.

  24. Colonial Weka 24

    This comment from the liberation blog
     

    The situation is pretty much as you say it – Clare Curran laid a letter of complaint against the person known as “Colonial Viper” with the NZ Council of the NZLP last week. I’m told that this letter seeks disciplinary action against Colonial Viper, who is a member of the party.

     

    http://liberation.typepad.com/liberation/2012/12/clare-curran-the-standard-and-the-state-of-the-labour-party.html#tpe-action-resize-386

    I’ve been trying to figure out why CV in particular has been the target. He’s not an author here, and while he is certainly a prolific commenter I’m not sure that he stands out any more than the many other people who routinely and robustly criticise Shearer/Labour. Can we assume then that Labour data matched all commenters at Red Alert for party membership (but only came up with CV as a problem)? Or is there something I’m missing? (don’t need to know if it’s better not talked about online).

    • VIPERRRM 24.1

      They decided they were going to pick someone, and he was the first “someone” who flew in front of their radar?

      School bullies operate in the same way – anyone who’s had a childhood should recognise this behaviour.

      • King Kong 24.1.1

        They picked him because he is the easiest to make an example of as it is impossible for him to just change his handle and keep commenting.

        You would be able to spot a weapons grade know it all, like CV from a mile off.

        • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 24.1.1.1

          Oh the irony of King Kong Klutz accusing someone of being a “know it all”.

          Please don’t eat any more plastic bananas, they are for decoration only and contain brain rotting toxins.

    • Viper_Sanctuary 24.2

      “…I’ve been trying to figure out why CV in particular has been the target…”

      My guess is it is because he lives in the same town as Clare Curran, so she found his criticism particularly galling.

    • Lightly 24.3

      They say all politics is local. They also say the personal is political.

  25. Rhinoviper 25

    It can be due to a calculated application of the principle of “Pour encourager les autres”, it could be a more visceral expression of the psychology of bullying/scapegoating – one becomes obsessively fixated on on tangible target rather than an amorphous group or tendency and ascribes all sorts of demonic powers and intentions to them, justifying their persecution …or it could be any combination of the two.

  26. Frances Agnew 26

    Vindow Viper

    I live in the Dn South Electorate. I was a LP member but am so dissatisfied with what they are doing I am not involved any longer. Labour will be doomed to the scrap heap if they continue to fail to listen to their members. This “Old Guard” should gracefully retire and let other more sensible people be in charge.Dn South has been controlled by a few for many years. They have fixed veiws (not neccesary left) and will not move an inch.

    • Neoleftie 26.1

      I too live and work in south d and suffered a similar fate or dismay at the state of south d labour.

      Perhaps time for a new branch in south d, an open democratic inclusive modern branch that has one purpose.
      The purpose of not power play and clique but with a collective idea to get rid of national.
      Time to contribute again I think…

      Sign up form refer below…
      ….
      ….
      ….
      Below.

  27. Herodotus (CV Supporter) 27

    As someone not even connected to the labour party and was told in no uncertain terms that if I did not supply personal information that I would be banned from RA (2 years ago), that this Labour caucus is concerned only with the suppression of ideas (And Open Govt should be help in contempt) What is the Labour party and who are they representing ?
    At least I will now have company at the gulag.
    Many on the left IMO should be scared at this attempt to suppress ideas and commentary.
    CV and those in the same boat, stay strong. And don’t be defeated in this. It is what we stand up to and NOT walk by and allow that defines us. We need those who have principles and follow them as best that they can.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX8szNPgrEs

    • Colonial Weka 27.1

      What personal information did they want? And who was telling you you had to supply it? Was this more than just a pseudonym and email address. ie after you had already commented there?

    • lprent 27.2

      You’d have noticed the numbers of comments on posts over there over the years? Once you remove spud :). Started well and the numbers of comments kept rising until they started to moderate on opinion rather than behaviour because someone was trying to manipulate “the message”. That caused a levelling off of comments being left as commentators got worried about where this was heading. It started dropping once some idiots started using the private info for purposes that had nothing to do with the site.

      This set of transitions was obvious to anyone who who’d seen other forums have the same dumbarse mistakes over the last three decades that the net has been operating in one form or another. Doing things for short-term reasons always screws up the viability of sites for long term viability. There are two things that are important to forum sites viability. The limits to behaviour of commentators and moderators, usually expressed as a known culture (which unfortunately tends to exclude newbies to that culture) or better as some kind of policy about what not to do. And trust about the site’s operation – which should also be expressed in some kind of policy and then followed religiously.

      In our case, we’re pretty clear about who and what we are, what we consider to be behavioural problems, and very explicit about privacy. We’re also getting more and more consistent about how we moderate, and having to do less and less moderation over time despite ever increasing numbers of comments and commentators.

      Our critics obviously pick at these factors and assert that they arise from other factors like ideological differences. But basically moderators are not particularly concerned about what people say (provided it doesn’t bring us into legal problems), but we’re harsh as hell on how some people approach what they say. Most are quite obvious policies that are put in to explicitly to stop things that are just designed to disrupt the site over the longer term.

      • coronial typer 27.2.1

        … and in the competitive realm of site unique users, The Standard will continue to dominate Red Alert. In fact The Standard will gain market share from Red Alert as a result of Claire’s foolishness.

        Which is a reward for virtuous good practise. Cheers LPrent long may you and your site prosper.

        I predict blogs will overtake newspapers as the 2nd most influential media source of politics, within 1 year.

        So Armstrong, Audrey, you’re done as well.

        • lprent 27.2.1.1

          …In fact The Standard will gain market share from Red Alert…

          Wasn’t really ever that much traffic on RA from what I could tell.They didn’t publish stats so there was no way of telling. But I got the impression that they were in the 20-30k visits and 40-50k PV region average at their best. They probably had some significant spiking depending on who wrote what when. But the low quality and infrequent posts probably put them well below No Right Turn

      • Herodotus (CV Supporter) 27.2.2

        My issue as mentioned before was a result of a by election in the local area (That Labour IMO totally ignored and gave an disservice to those who did not buy in to the Nat way) and as a result we have a career polly/mon key) As a result of my comments: Curran and Mallard wanted my address, and other contact details. I responded by stating my concerns to Phil Goff, which I did get a warm response, and also as a result giving away my details !! (And from my work I am totally aware of how much you can ascertain (legally) about someone given only their name and address.)
        ps I was always in moderation on any comments in RA, and from comments I was not the only one placed in this position, which appears to have been enlarged to now capture and moderate members of NZLP. How sad that in 08 when many made comment that the Lab caucus was in total disconnect with the voter and knew better, is still prevalent today.

  28. unpcnzcougar 28

    I do not agree with what you have to say, but I’ll defend to the death your right to say it.
    Voltaire

  29. vto viped 29

    I must say that for the Labour Party to delve into a person’s private details on website Red Alert to further alternative means is mind-boggling to say the least.

    What the Labour Party has done is in my mind the exact same thing as has happenned to Dotcom with the GCSB and all that shit.

    HOW CAN THE LABOUR PARTY NOW BE TRUSTED ON ISSUES OF PRIVACY? In fact, how can it be trusted, fullstop?

    It is simply appalling, is it not?

    • Colonial Weka 29.1

      Exactly. It makes Labour like Paula Bennett in terms of contempt for privacy. Not to mention Slater.
       
      All sympathy and kaha to CV, but this issue is also much wider than whatever has been done to him. It raises very serious issues about Labour, the public and trust.

      • Anne 29.1.1

        I think ianmac does have a point. The criticisms against Labour can go too far sometimes. For instance, the so-called delving into a commenters private information via the back door on Red Alert started out innocently enough. When Red Alert first got up and running (2009 I think) there were suspicions that National Party staffers and ministerial office workers were coming on to the site with the express purpose of derailing it. I believe the ‘back-door’ method was used to check the suspicion out, and it proved to be true. Nevertheless the moderators at that time acted prudently and never revealed the details. Unfortunately, the ability to use this avenue to find out the identities of commenters appears to have since been misused – and to the detriment of the individuals concerned.

        Perhaps (just perhaps) those who are critical of the use of pseudonyms on certain blog sites might start to understand why they are often considered necessary. There can be unpleasant consequences for some if their identities are exposed.

  30. What left wing bloggers need to do is to stop censoring comments at their blogs.

    Take labour list [candidate] (she didnt get in) [deleted], over at her blog, and The Hand Mirror, (a blog she writes at) if anyone shows a different opinion to her, she deletes their comment and tells the writer to F off.

    For myself this is one of the reasons I stopped voting labour, Labour [?] have such a self righteous attitude.

    Any dissent is meant with an out right attack on free speech.

    [lprent: Don’t use real names for someone writing under a pseudonym. If you want to use them, then link to something somewhere that they have written with their name in it. Don’t link to speculation because that way lies banning. ]

    • Pascal's bookie 30.1

      What rightwingers need to do is stop spamming left wing blogs with pointless horseshit.

      Loads of righties comment here, and have done for years.

      And all politicians are self righteous and arrogant. you have to be think you are up to the job.

      John Key called the cops on a journalist because neither he nor Banks saw a tape recorder at a photo op.

      Before that, he called the Sydney head office of a media org to get them to put the hard word on an editor about ‘clarifying’ something he had said.

      Groser calls scientists ‘enemies within’ when they point out that our rivers are full of shit.

      Bennett breached the Privacy Act in order to teach some citizens a lesson about putting their head above the parapet.

      A letter sent to Judith Collins was leaked, in an attempt to discredit a citizen, and blackmail claims were made, in the ACC mess.

      • vto viped 30.1.1

        Yep P’s b, it certainly doesn’t pay to put your name to much these days lest you get attacked and beaten by the jackboots of the state.

        Oh, and on that and this particular issue, te news today has a story about the unionist sacked from his job on the Horribbit because he was a unionist.

        That, plus Dotcom, plus Labour privacy breaching, all points to just one conclusion ………..

    • Colonial Weka 30.2

      The Hand Mirror is a different kete of eels. For a start while it does have a left wing slant, it is primarily a feminist blog and as such the moderation rules support feminist culture not left wing culture. I have my own opinions about how they moderate there, but I have to say it’s not dissent that usually gets censored, it’s rudeness, abuse, sexism and misogyny (racism etc too). I think the primary purpose of the moderation process at the HM is not to be inclusive of the wider world, but to create a safer place for feminists to talk about shit. (and there are very good, real world and cyberspace reasons why feminists have to take alot more care around that than other places in the blogosphere).
       
      In the same way that the Standard removes things outside its own rules, so does the Hand Mirror. If you follow the rules on either site, you can dissent all you like. Get the point? It’s not post content usually, it’s how it is expressed, and how people behave. Respect the place, and you will be ok. But then if you went down to the local pub and started abusing everyone, then you’d be asked to leave. It’s not really that different than the real world.
       
      So, true, if you don’t like restrictions on your behaviour, best to stay away.

      • Brett Dale 30.2.1

        You just have to read the comments in the comment section of the hand mirror, [deleted] would delete a comment and then call the commentator all sorts of names and finish with telling the commentator to F or P off.

        Now if this what labour list [candidates] think of people, then they shouldn’t be surprised that they’re polling so low.

        • Colonial Weka 30.2.1.1

          Brett, please link to a couple of examples at the Hand Mirror.

          • Brett Dale 30.2.1.1.1

            Just search for posts by “Kiwi Stargazer” at the hand mirror, some in depth research will show quite a few occurrences of this.

            • Pascal's bookie 30.2.1.1.1.1

              Go on then. We’ll wait here.

            • Colonial Weka 30.2.1.1.1.2

              Brett, I read at the HM off and on, and am familiar with stargazer’s posts. My memory of here is completely different than yours – I don’t remember her telling people to fuck off all the time, or even occasionally.
               
              I’ve also gone and had a look at the last couple of posts by her on both the HM and her own blog and I don’t see anything that even comes close to your description of her. In the absence of some actual links provided by you I will assume you have a vendetta from a slight going on here.

    • lprent 30.3

      ….bloggers need to do is to stop censoring comments at their blogs.

      Yeah right. Like I have ever seen that happening on ANY blog site with a reasonable number of comments and commentators. The blog site you link to has 100k PV’s in just under 5 years (congrats BTW), and No Comments is the rule rather than the exception. Doesn’t exactly give credibility to your opinion on blogging.

      To moderate at a online forum or blog is like being a bouncer or barman at a club or pub. The rules are local and usually quite explicit about dress or acceptable behaviour for much the same reason. I’ve done both and the similarities are pretty close. Both are privately run public spaces. They have outside legal bounds like legal limits and contractual limits landlords/hosting companies. They set their own standards of behaviour within those.

      What you can get away with at a site or pub that has bugger all customers is often quite different where there are a lot of customers, commentators and comments. What you’re allowed to do in a public bar or TS is different from what is required at a K Rd trance night club or a blog with a speciality feminist audience.

      Guests don’t set the rules if it is a pub, nightclub or blog site because that is what the site operators set. They’re the ones doing the work and trying to set the direction of their favourite privately run public space. You conform to the local rules. If you don’t then you will get bounced and if you repeatedly transgress then you will get bounced harder.

      And there is this big secret in both. Places that have good bouncers and clear rules are those that customers prefer to go to. Places without rules and bouncers usually drop to the lowest common denominator and their customers steadily disappear. So do those where the rules are arbitrary, incomprehensible, or appear to be designed to skin people. Same with blog sites and this will happen independently of the quality of the content of posts (or the club decor)..

      TS and THM clearly aren’t dying….

      • Brett Dale 30.3.1

        Iprent:

        My blog Is not really a blog, its just my ranting and raving about certain issues.

        I have no skills as a writer whatsoever.

        That is probably why there are only a few comments on several posts, despite
        all the posts I have done.

        Yes, I agree you should be able to delete, spam comments and abusive comments and troll
        comments from a blog.

        My point was that labour list [candidate] [deleted], consistently deletes comments that arent like this, and then goes on to tell the commentator, to F and P off.

        Not the behavior I would expect from a list [candidate].

        As for my blog, I have only EVER deleted comments that were spam and my blog is not done to make change in society or make money, it’s just my random thoughts.

        Thanks for the congrats though, 50 hits a days over five years, is great for a man of my intellect.

        • QoTViper 30.3.1.1

          Not the behavior I would expect from a list MP.

          Great list MPs of history:

          Brendan Horan
          Shane Jones
          Melissa Lee
          Kanwaljit Singh Bakshi
          Richard Prosser
          Winston Peters

          … and of course they’re the ones who got in.

          I have only EVER deleted comments that were spam

          Hey, congrats on never receiving graphic rape or death threats! They’re such downers.

          • Brett Dale 30.3.1.1.1

            Thanks but i have been called all sorts of color language and told not to post anymore by people who seem to everywhere on the internet.

            • QoTViper 30.3.1.1.1.1

              Oh fuck! Colourful language! Fuck no! And people have, like, placed limits on their own online spaces? Fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

          • lprent 30.3.1.1.2

            ….congrats on never receiving graphic rape or death threats!

            The little shitheads saying “we know where you live” in a vaguely intimidating way did sort of amuse me.

            After all I haven’t gutted or castrated sheep in a while and it looked like it was unlikely I’d have an opportunity whilst living in the centre of the city. While I’m sure that the skill set never entirely disappears but you really don’t know until you practice. I was a bit worried about Lyn for a while until I realised that she grew up on a southland sheep farm and that she had even more weapons training than I had.

            Of course living close to a police station might limit our opportunities damnit.

          • David Viperious H 30.3.1.1.3

            And what about Alamein Kupu? I think she was the one the Waka jumping bill was written for.

        • lprent 30.3.1.2

          … its just my ranting and raving about certain issues.

          That is all a blog is. That is what we require out authors to deliver. They really aren’t encouraged to do that nasty journalism stuff except as backing for their opinions.

          …you should be able to delete, spam comments and abusive comments and troll comments from a blog.

          What you choose to delete, ban, or moderate on a site is pretty strictly a matter for the site policies and usually the author of the post. There really are no global “rules” except in people’s imaginations. Usually the proof of the efficacy of policies is reflected in the number and type of comments that are received.

          In this case, I suspect that you were been given a push off her posts in a manner that was probably a damn sight more polite than I’d use (you’ll remember that I’m deliberately extremely un-nice when I ban someone – overbearingly obnoxious is the style that I aim for). Moderators do this to ensure that the memory of what happens sticks and the behaviour is not repeated.

          …my blog is not done to make change in society or make money…

          Pretty much the same as this site. Blogs are mostly about expressing people’s opinions and experiences. Other changes they do tend to be incidental and are usually more by readers having a good think about something that they haven’t delved into before. That is pretty much why they read them.

          We definitely don’t run ours to make money. In my case the effort I put into this site would cost a frigging fortune if someone wanted to pay me for it, and as for those authors – you’d have problems getting them to do it if you paid them for it.

          These days we run ads to pay for the servers because the site volumes were somewhat larger than we could fit on to most web-hosting systems. From 2007-2010 I and some donations paid for the servers. These days the ads have allowed us to accumulate money into a defence fund that regretfully I envisage at some point we will have to use.

          Over 5 years, 100k probably isn’t that different in magnitude to the readership of my occasional posts. I probably haven’t had much more than 2-3x that over the last 5 years, mostly because I’m not exactly a prolific author. I’ve done just 30 posts since April 19th averaging maybe between 125 and 150 page views per day over 200 days. Fortunately the other authors posts give me a wide readership :)

          BTW: Removed the name on the comment I’m replying to. Violates the no names policy…

    • Brett Dale 30.4

      Iprent:

      Okay fair enough, I wont use writers name, I just presume that she didnt care, since she has
      got her real name on her blog and her name has been used at the hand mirror and and by the msm.

      But fair enough, them the rules.

  31. Rat 31

    Any evidence of that Kiwiman, or are you making shit up ….again

  32. i’m not interesting in responding to any of the stupidity being thrown out here, other than to be so very glad that a certain person has chosen to no longer comment on my blog. & i think others have already dealt with the issues more than adequately.

    but i do need to make absolutely clear: i have never, ever been an MP for labour. i was a list candidate in 2005 & 2008, but never an MP. it would be good if that inaccuracy could be corrected in comments above, though i understand that is asking for moderators to do a bit of work that they may be disinclined to do – so i totally understand if comments are left as they are. i just don’t want anyone to think that i might have described myself as an MP at some point, in some kind of self-inflating fashion. that has never happened.

    [lprent: I’ll have a crack at it. But it does appear that you have succeeded where many others have faltered… ]

    • karol 32.1

      Always enjoy reading your posts stargazer, and also appreciate that such blogs a well moderated so they can’t be spammed, thread-derailed, or subjected to comments offensive in relation to the topics and policies of the blog/s.

    • stargazer 32.2

      thanx lprent for taking the time to do the corrections. much appreciated. thanx also to others who have been responding here. really appreciate your efforts as well. & thank you for your kind comments karol.

      [lprent: NP. I saw that he’d been using a real name which we tend to be somewhat picky about here, so I fixed that at the same time.. ]

  33. Neoleftie 33

    Well this is of some interest.

    On red alert some geeze called David now know as big dave posted a nice statement concerning cc outing bloggers.

    No moderation so either the shit has hit the fan and bye bye Clare or they have got the message.
    Kill us the supporters and members off and no more party.

  34. Yes I must point out that kiwistargazer never was an mp, but on their party list and never made it to parliament.

    Sorry for the confusion.

    [lprent: She was a candidate. I’ll fix the rest of your comments since stargazer requested it and it is a factual error. ]

    • felixviper 34.1

      No-one confused but you, mate. The rest of us know what “MP” means.

    • Colonial Weka 34.2

      Still waiting for the links Brett. Bad form to slag someone off without being able to back it up.

      • Brett Dale 34.2.1

        I cant be bothered to go thru kiwistargazer’s post at the hand mirror, to find the posts she has done where she has deleted posts in the comment section and then tell the person who commented to beep off.

        Im sure she will admit doing this.

        • Colonial Weka 34.2.1.1

          Right, so you were making shit up.

          • Brett Dale 34.2.1.1.1

            I think she will self admit that she does this and will be proud of it, like I said I dont go to her blog anymore, I go to the hand mirror, but any posts that has her name on it, I dont read.

            • lprent 34.2.1.1.1.1

              And that is fine – voting with your mouse. But I suspect that you are falling into her trap :) What is the bet that is exactly what she wants you to do…

              • Iprent:

                haha I dont think she sets a trap, I dont think she could care less if i read her piece or
                not, like you said i vote with my mouse and choose not to read pieces by her anymore.

            • fender/same sentiment less eloquent Viper 34.2.1.1.1.2

              Well IMO you need to stop stargazing into your hand mirror, take your other hand off it, and slap your face instead ‘cos you keep “thinking” for others as well as making shit up.

              • Fender:

                For a start I dont think for others, and i dont make stuff up, I have opinions just like anyone else here.

                • One Tāne Viper

                  “…I don’t make stuff up, I have opinions…”

                  Ahhh! The stupidity! It burns!

                  cf: “[lprent: She was a candidate. I’ll fix the rest of your comments since stargazer requested it and it is a factual error. ]”

            • felixviper 34.2.1.1.1.3

              Hi Brett.

              Everyone has been waiting patiently for an example or two, and I can see you’re a busy man so I’ve done the work for you.

              I stayed up all night and went through all of stargazer’s posts. I read every post she’s ever written and read every comment on every thread and tried to find an example for you.

              There were none. Not a single example anywhere on any of her posts of her ever doing what you said she does “consistently”. Not one.

              So there it is Brett, you said we had to do your research for you, so I did it, and there’s your result.

              Case closed.

              • Just viping

                Many thanks Felixviper.

                Stargazer is an excellent blogger, I’ve followed her writing for a few years now. To even imply that she is abusive is to completely misrepresent her. I have always found her to be respectful to readers, even under the intense provocations that being a feminist, Muslim, brown, or a woman, in public, inevitably attract, in and of themselves, in NZ.

                • just viping:

                  I agree, she is an excellent blogger, and a brilliant writer.

                  It is my opinion that in some cases she is disingenuous, passive aggressive in some cases, and worst off hypocritical.

                  I decided not to go to her blog anymore for several pieces that she did, and her treatment of people who may question or disagree with what she writes.

                  Again, that is my OPINION and i’m not stating anything as fact.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    “Again, that is my OPINION and i’m not stating anything as fact.”
                     
                    Dude,
                     
                    Brett: “I don’t like stargazer and I think she is a hypocrite” = opinion
                     
                    Brett: “stargazer as a Labour list MP routinely deletes people’s comments and tells the writer to F off, if anyone shows a different opinion to her” = asserted fact that needs backing up.
                     
                    You retracted the first ‘fact’ when challenged (she’s not nor ever was an MP), but you have utterly failed to provide any evidence to support the second ‘fact’. That’s why everyone else here thinks you are making it up. By all means let things lie, but please don’t pretend that you were just posting your personal opinion. You made shit up about someone, and used that to denigrate and undermine them publicly without any evidence.
                     
                     

              • Felix:

                well you didnt look hard enough, did you go to The Hand Mirror, have you emailed
                her and ask…

                “Have you ever did a post at the hand mirror, and then deleted a comment, and then wrote in the comment section telling that person to beep off?”

                I dont believe you actually did that felix, because if you had you would’ve found the comments.

                • felixviper

                  So post a link to what you accuse her of, which you won’t.

                  Otherwise you made it up, which you did.

                  Simple.

              • Colonial Weka

                “I stayed up all night and went through all of stargazer’s posts.”
                 
                Spooky! I did the same thing and found the same results as you – no examples at all of her telling people to fuck off.
                 
                I also went through all the backlog of Brett’s blog and found numerous examples of him telling people to fuck off and being generally rude, obnoxious and offensive. Lots of examples where he confuses opinion with fact too.

                • Colonial:

                  I have never told any poster in the comment section of my blog to f off.

                  I havwe told the liars in the msm to do this in my actual blog post, but not in the
                  comment section.

                  Again all you have to do is ask, kiwistargazer has she ever deleted a comment, and then replied to that comment telling that person where to go.

                  Im sure she will admit to it.

                  (BTW, its her right to do that)

                  • Colonial Weka

                    “I have never told any poster in the comment section of my blog to f off.”
                     
                    Really? Because I know that you did, and I’ve said so so it must be true.

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    So it’s gone from something she routinely does to anyone who disagrees, to something that might have happened one time that you can’t be arsed finding for us.

                    pfft.

                • http://thehandmirror.blogspot.co.nz/2011/07/yet-another-burqa-post.html

                  stargazer said…
                  thanx cara, appreciate your post. lucy, sorry i haven’t got back to you, but was too tired last night & pretty busy today.

                  fish, i see that you don’t care to respect anyone’s boundaries or polite requests, so i’m telling you to piss off. you aren’t welcome on this blog, anywhere. an inability to respect that fact clearly shows you for the asshole you are. you are perfectly free to start your own blog & make as many moronic comments there as you like. just leave ours alone.
                  Saturday, July 09, 2011 6:55:00 PM

                  • One Tāne Viper

                    Ah, so you were lying.

                    “An inability to respect the facts” ≠ “different opinion to her”

                    Tool.

                    • Tane

                      I was called a liar by many people here for saying kiwistargazer told people to P off in the comment section. and here we have her comment, which I have provided a link for in my previous post.

                      Didn’t think people would have integrity to say sorry.

                    • One Tāne Viper

                      Planet Brett, let’s be clear about what my comment above means (since English language comprehension appears to be your Achilles heel).

                      I am accusing you of lying because you deceitfully misrepresented Kiwistargazer’s reasons for schooling some piece of trash.

                    • QoT

                      No Brett, you’re a liar because you said:

                      “if anyone shows a different opinion to her, she deletes their comment and tells the writer to F off.”

                      Now it’s … oh, one time someone showed a lack of regard for a blog’s rules and she told them to P off.

                      Are you actually capable of comprehending how these aren’t the same thing?

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    So nothing really like what you suggested then.

                    It was clearly the culmination of some ongoing moderation issues and the commenter was not abiding by the norms of the blog, so pissing off is pretty much the order of the day.

                    • Pascal:

                      I was called a liar that I said she told people to P off in the comment section of her blog, and now I have been proven right.

                      You really think this is the only incident?

                      Your digging yourself into a hole.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      You said she “as a Labour list MP routinely deletes people’s comments and tells the writer to F off, if anyone shows a different opinion to her”

                      You might want to check out what those words all mean before we go further.

                • felixviper

                  Yes Weka, Brett has censored my comments on his blog many times.

                  He also called me a goblin.

                  I won’t link to it because I don’t go there now, but anyone can see that none of my comments are there anymore.

                  • Fleix:

                    It would be quite easy to find because no one comments on my blog, oh did you see the link i provided here. Its a few posts up.

                    • felixviper

                      All you have to do is go to your blog and you’ll see it.

                      I won’t link to the comment because I don’t go there anymore, but I know it’s there. Do some research and you’ll find it, you call people goblins all the time.

                      Also, no Brett, that link you posted does not show stargazer censoring someone for disagreeing with her.

                      You made that story up, Brett. It simply didn’t happen.

  35. There is a viper in my bed 35

    Jeez, you go away for a few days…

  36. SHG (not Colonial Viper) 36

    Curran confirms the story, reverts to type, tries to control the message, describes herself as being “attacked online”.

    http://yournz.org/2012/12/11/curran-confirms-but-key-questions-unanswered/
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/238634/curran-hits-out-online-critics

  37. michael 37

    I hope everyone appreciates the irony of Labour’s self-promoted IT communications expert whining and bitching about the exercise of free speech in the blogosphere and calling for the excommunication of Party members who dare to criticise her online. Bring back B-P.

  38. SHG (not Colonial Viper) 38

    The Dunedin South spin machine is engaged:

    Curran confirms the story, reverts to type, tries to control the message, describes herself as being “attacked online”.

    http://yournz.org/2012/12/11/curran-confirms-but-key-questions-unanswered/
    http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/238634/curran-hits-out-online-critics

  39. Pascal: yes I said she tells people to f and p off at her blog, I was called a liar and
    have I now proved that she does this by providing a link. Im not going through years of her blog
    posts at the hand mirror to find the others.

    I just thought people would have integrity here to say sorry and admit they were wrong.

    I guess I was wrong.

    • One Tāne Viper 39.1

      Integrity? You accused her of censoring opposing opinions, liar. Now you’re even lying about your lies.

      • Brett Dale 39.1.1

        That was one link i provided to prove that she does tell people to beep off. I havent got time to go thru all her posts at the hand mirror, and i dont want to.

        • One Tāne Viper 39.1.1.1

          Quelle surprise! The liar is devoid of integrity, in denial, unable to stop digging.

    • Pascal's bookie 39.2

      “stargazer as a Labour list MP routinely deletes people’s comments and tells the writer to F off, if anyone shows a different opinion to her”

      posting something where she tells someones to piss off for not abidiing by the norms of the blog, doesn’t support your claim in the slightest. If it’s th best you’ve got, then you were at the very least, mistaken. Doubling down now counts as a lie though I think.

    • QoT 39.3

      Just for clarification, Brett, you do mean “fuck off” and “piss off”, right? I’d hate for other people to try and provide your evidence for you with an imperfect idea of the baseless allegations you’re making.

  40. One Tane:

    And Im was called an outright liar for saying she tells people this, and have provided one link, if I had time I would go through the backcatalog of her previous posts, But I dont want to spend any more time reading her posts, ever.

    • Colonial Weka 40.1

      Just to be clear. You weren’t called a liar for making a claim. You were called a liar for repeatedly making a supposedly factual claim and repeatedly refusing to back it up with any evidence.

  41. Which I have now backed up with evidence.

    • One Tāne Viper 41.1

      Liar. The evidence you have provided clearly shows your attempted smear (that she censors differing opinions) is a lie.

      Do you lie routinely like this all the time? Or just when you want to smear someone you disagree with?

    • Pascal's bookie 41.2

      According to you, everytime someone disagreed with her she would delete their comment and tell them fuck off.

      You didn’t check the meanings of those words you used, did you?

      You haven’t provided any evidence at all. Non one is disputing that she told people to piss off, or fuck off, or anything else off. They are disputing that she did it simply because of disagreement. That’s what you claimed, and what you can’t back up, but won’t retract. Making you a liar.

      • Colonial Weka 41.2.1

        Actually I called Brett on the idea that stargazer routinely tells people to fuck off. One example isn’t routine. And I agree, she moderated for behaviour not because someone disagreed with her (looking at her posts, people disagree and their posts don’t get removed).

        • QoT 41.2.1.1

          And she didn’t say “fuck”, she said “piss”. I mean, it’s like there’s actually no part of Brett’s statement (the original one, not the one he’s now pretending he made) that’s accurate!

  42. Again, I’m not going thru thousands of posts at her blog, to find the particular post, I stand by my OPINION, that she censors comments on her blog.

    • One Tāne Viper 42.1

      Your worthless opinion. FIFY.

      • Brett Dale 42.1.1

        Im not sure what fify means?

        LOL = laugh out loud
        omg+ oh my God
        wtf= why the face

        never heard of fify.

        • Pascal's bookie 42.1.1.1

          It’s OK Brett, we’ll just add ‘FIFY’ to the set containing:

          ‘routine’, ‘lie’, ‘opinion’, ‘proof’, ‘evidence’, ‘MP’

          What name do you think that set has Brett?

          (Hint: A set is a group of things sharing a characteristic, and you usually name it along the lines of ‘The set of things that [the characteristic they all share]’.)

    • QoT 42.2

      That’s not a matter of opinion, Brett.

      Can you follow along?

      “I don’t like Nickelback’s music” = opinion.

      “Nickelback are from Canada” = statement of fact, easily backed up by Wikipedia.

      Ergo:

      “I don’t like that blogger’s moderating style” = opinion.

      “If anyone disagrees with that blogger they delete the comment and tell the commenter to fuck off” = statement of fact, easily backed up by evidence of disagreeing comments being deleted and the phrase “fuck off” being used.

      • Brett Dale 42.2.1

        QOT:

        She has deleted comments to her posts at the hand mirror and she has told posters to F off, if i remember correctly.

        • One Tāne Viper 42.2.1.1

          Who cares about your manifestations of self-inflicted amnesia and/or lack of comprehension?

          The issue is your attempt to smear her with your lies.

        • QoT 42.2.1.2

          But without actual evidence, Brett, no one here has any reason at all to trust your recollection. Do you really not get how asserting things works?

    • Pascal's bookie 42.3

      Brett, the fact that you think you would have to go through “thousands of posts at her blog” shows that you think it happens rarely, which means it’s not routine.

      I told you to look up what all those words you used meant Brett, but you couldn’t even be bothered doing that could you?

      Lazy stupid liar. That’s no way to go through life son, let alone blog comment threads.

      • Brett Dale 42.3.1

        Okay perhaps using routine was a poor choice of words, I do remember seeing the comments but i dont have the link, although i guess that is like saying, i do remember buying the winning lotto ticket, but i cant find it.

        • Pascal's bookie 42.3.1.1

          No it isn’t like that at all. because even if you had found the fucking ticket, which you didn’t, it wouldn’t prove the thing you claimed.

          It’s more like not being able to find a ticket that’s irrelevant because it was a bus ticket.

          • One Tāne Viper 42.3.1.1.1

            lol

          • Brett Dale 42.3.1.1.2

            Pascal?

            Finding a ticket? Look fair play, the mods can delete any message i have written here ever.

            • QoT 42.3.1.1.2.1

              Having failed in his quest to pretend his original argument was something completely different, the Brettus Dalius tries to avoid the ire of his natural predators and goad authorities into erasing all trace of his derail.

              /DavidAttenboroughvoice

              • Okay, leave them up, its up to the mods really.

                • QoT

                  No one.

                  Has suggested.

                  The mods.

                  Delete your comments.

                  Except for you.

                  This is a figment of your imagination, desperately scrabbling for a way out when your own words are being used to hold you to account.

                  I for one hope the mods leave all this up. You are the only person responsible for the hole you’re in.

                  You’ve not only made the same assertions repeatedly, you’ve demanded that others produce the evidence of your own assertions. The sheer amount of energy you’ve expended trying to dodge the issue could quite easily have been spent finding evidence of your assertions. If it exists.

                  The fact you’re still rabbiting on about this? Might indicate it doesn’t. Hence why you’re so unsubtly trying to get this whole discussion erased. And thus we come full circle.

                  • Keep it up then. But im not going to thru all her posts to find the one im thinking about. I dont have the enegry,

                    • IrishBill

                      So you’re lying?

                    • fender Viper

                      The amount of time spent typing “im not going thru all her posts to find the one im thinking about” ad nauseum you could have found “it” a thousand times over, if it existed at all that is.

                    • QoT

                      +1 to fender Viper. So you don’t have the energy, even though you’ve asserted this behaviour is common, and you were quite happy to tell other people to do it because it would be easy … and yet you still have the energy to keep commenting here about why you don’t have the energy.

                    • Adele

                      Brett

                      I read stargazer at the Handmirror. She is the antithesis of QoT.

                      Whereas QoT will happily tell a deserving commenter to fuck off, stargazer would say that they are no longer welcome.

                      Whereas QoT would happily say to a commenter that their opinions are fucking toxic spew stargazer would call their opinions ill-formed.

                      What you attribute to stargazer in terms of language used is not evidenced by the wealth of her interactions. Frankly, stargazer saying ‘fuck off’ is as likely as QoT saying ‘oh bother.’

                      By the way, I respect both women for their fluency with the English language.

                    • QoTViper

                      I can totally say “oh bother”, Adele. When I’m taking tea with grandmother. :D

    • KJT 42.4

      So what. So do I.

      RWNJ’s, and other trolling twits, can start their own blog!

  43. Im not going to go thru her blog to find the post im thinking of, if there is a legal problem for the standard, im quite happy for my comment here to be deleted.

  44. the pigman 44

    I can relate. My one visit to to the hand mirror was shouted down by QoT with a ton of swear words. I tried to find it for you (using a different name, mind you) and am annoyed by the fact that the blogger search function is localized in another language and I’m not especially good at using it.

    But, although I’m not sure it substantiates your claim, I have seen QoT tell a poster on TS that they were not welcome to comment on her posts and that she had told them this before (the substance of the post had been deleted). Yeah, the torrent of abuse (especially of the you-are-genetically-defective-variety) and swearing doesn’t exactly promote healthy engagement of ideas.

    • vto viped 44.1

      Yes but all that shit is just shit. The truth will prevail, especially when offered with diplomacy and an escape route for the victim.

      Swearing and abuse doesn’t accomplish much. Trust me.

    • Colonial Weka 44.2

      You can’t search on THM by author, which is annoying.
       
      I mostly enjoy QoT’s approach. But I know what you mean about new people being put off (not singly QoT out here). People with unknown names get jumped on here quite easily, which means ts loses people that might make good contributions (quiet, less robust people).
       
      In this conversation around Brett, I have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable about the nastiness directed at him and wonder if the culture at ts is veering too much in that direction. He’s being stupid, sure, but he’s not abusing people back, so what gives? Maybe others are attributing intent to him that I don’t see. I thought he was largely unaware of what he was doing. Also makes me think alot lately about critical thinking skills, to what extent they are inherent, can they be learned, and whether lack of them is cause for derision.

      • felixviper 44.2.1

        I know what you mean. For all Brett’s, um, idiosyncrasies, he’s never been nasty here.

        Just really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really annoying.

        It’s almost a gift.

        • Colonial Weka 44.2.1.1

          I don’t know Brett prior to this thread.
           
          Annoying as justification for ridicule and abuse. Still think a line is being stepped over here. It’s not like he’s doing a Pete George.

    • fender Viper 44.3

      “….I have seen QoT tell a poster on TS that they were not welcome to comment on her posts and that she had told them this before …..”

      If you have been reading here for a while you will know the history of the situation where Vicky32 developed an obsessive compulsive disorder with regard to QoT.

    • QoTViper 44.4

      My one visit to to the hand mirror was shouted down by QoT with a ton of swear words.

      “I was just there minding my own business officer, and out of nowhere, STRAW FEMINISTS ATTACKED!”

      Further, as already noted by fender Viper, if you have no fucking clue what you’re talking about re: my interactions with Vicky32, I suggest you spare yourself some embarrassment and STFU about it.

  45. Adele:

    I do enjoy reading some of the posts at the hand mirror and it can get heated as most discussions do i guess.

    • Colonial Weka 45.1

      Brett, when there is no reply button under a comment, it’s better to scroll upwards to the last reply button in that thread. That way it’s clearer who you are responding too (a cut and paste helps too when the thread gets really long).

      • Rhinoviper 45.1.1

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Exit

        …which is a fancy way of saying, Do Not Feed The Troll.

        Still, if you think it’s fun for it’s own sake, go ahead.

        • Colonial Weka 45.1.1.1

          Good example. You see a tr*ll, I see someone who doesn’t get how the thread works.

          • Rhinoviper 45.1.1.1.1

            Actually I see someone caught up in justifying himself on his own utterly stupid terms. You don’t need to let him dictate the rules to you by default. I find arguments with people of that sort enervating and somewhat embarrassing, like wrestling with a pig – you assume undignified positions, you get covered in mud and in the end you’re left with the suspicion that the pig enjoyed it.

            Anyway, as I said, go ahead if you find it amusing, but don’t worry that you have to prove anything to anyone. Dale’s an idiot, obsessed with his own self-justification in terms that are totally irrelevant to everyone else. :)

            • Colonial Weka 45.1.1.1.1.1

              “Actually I see someone caught up in justifying himself on his own utterly stupid terms.”
               
              Yes, I see that too, but not in this part of the thread. In this part of the thread, he is using the reply in a way that lessens good communication. I pointed that out. You seem to think that that is something beyond what it is, and that all his other transgressions mean that there is no point in engaging in any way other than abusive or rude.
               
               

    • Adele 45.2

      Brett,

      Admittedly, I too can be somewhat abusive with the English language. In defence thereof, I never knowingly pick on the weak or defenseless. In saying that, my definition of weak and defenseless does not include stupid people.

      There is nothing weak or defenseless about stupidity. It is a non-physiological, gender-less, class-less, race-less and insidious monster, and also a prolific breeder. It habitually infiltrates all aspects of all societies and all domains of humanity activity. Its an accursed beast, and mated with lack of awareness – breeds nothing fruitful or enlightened.

      We, collectively, should not tolerate stupidity as, accumulatively, it is the quickest route to extinction.

      Brett, I don’ t think you are stupid and I also don’t think you are being completely honest in your online portrayal.

  46. the pigman 46

    Adele,

    “Brett, I don’ t think you are stupid and I also don’t think you are being completely honest in your online portrayal.”

    Did you read Brett’s blog? If he is not being honest then he is having a damned good crack at some very advanced form of method-acting-as-performance-art.

    http://mediasportandotherrantings.blogspot.jp/2012/12/homeland-review-motherfucker-with-turban.html

    Have a look at the post above that, too ;)

    Edit: You should also have a read of the 31 posts he has made tagged with the label “Hoverboards”. (Not poking fun, I think it is quite cool that someone is keeping an eye on this.)

    • fender Viper 46.1

      The lying little shit said he posted the proof and got no apology.

      How BAD is that!

      Notice the attempt at a disclaimer where he says: “Nothing is meant to be stated as fact here”

      Seek some help Stale Brat, I mean Brett Dale.

    • Adele 46.2

      Kiaora, the pigman

      Lol, well, what can I say! I suck at psychology.

  47. burt 47

    Eddie

    Look I know there has been a lot of trouble around this particular point and I only raise it now as a talking point…. Wasn’t there a time when ‘The Standard’ was being run on a Labour provided server?

    It’s kind of lucky you guys moved off that really – you would have become ‘red alert’ !

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    Today Child Poverty Action Group released a background paper on ‘The complexities of ‘relationship’ in the welfare system and the consequences for children.‘ The report includes 16 recommendations to modernise our welfare system which is no longer fit for the… ...
    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    2 weeks ago

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