“I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!”
Sue Moroney’s dismal, delusional anti-fluoridation rave
Backbenchers, Prime TV, Wednesday 12 June 2013, 10:30 p.m.
Hosts: Wallace Chapman, Damian Christie
Politicians: Sue Moroney (Labour), Simon O’Connor (National), Richard Prosser (New Zealand First)
If you can bear the unedifying spectacle of “wretchedness o’ercharg’d”, then please watch as Labour List lightweight Sue Moroney, in an incredible display of sheer purblind obstinacy, incites the crowd to outraged jeering, and drives the normally unflappable Wallace Chapman to completely lose his rag.
First topic for tonight is the Edward Snowden story…
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him? SUE MORONEY:[face frozen in rictus grin] Ahhhhhhhhhhh. [extended pause] No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters. WALLACE CHAPMAN:[shrugs shoulders, raises eyebrows in disbelief] Okay then. Do you feel sorry for Peter Dunne? SUE MORONEY: Ohhhhh, look, he’s a minister. There are expectations we have of a minister, and he failed. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you? SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
For a moment, a stunned and ominous silence fills the Backbenchers Tavern; then the slight titter of derisive laughter, and also a slight percussive sound: the Labour Party supporters gnashing their teeth in mortification. Wallace Chapman licks his lips, shakes his head in disbelief, then he decides to see if he can get someone to talk sense….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: All right, I’ll ask all three of our politicians: Edward Snowden, hero or villain? RICHARD PROSSER: Ooooh…depends where you stand. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay. Short and sweet. Sue Moroney? SUE MORONEY:[significant pause] I’d like a lot more information. But I guess he’s a hero. SIMON O’CONNOR: He’s a young man who made a rash decision. He hasn’t thought it through.
Next topic is FLUORIDATION. Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program. It surely makes sense, therefore, that a parliamentary backbencher from Hamilton should be on Backbenchers tonight. Surely. Unfortunately, as we have already seen by her confused and contradictory statements about the Edward Snowden case, this particular backbencher makes little or no sense at all….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: What do you think of that decision, Sue Moroney? SUE MORONEY:[significant pause] I stand with Labour. We need a proper government inqu—- SIMON O’CONNOR: No, no, no, no, no! That’s not good enough, Sue! I ask you to give me an answer and you say nothing that makes sense. This is a bit of a shocker, Sue! SUE MORONEY: Research and evidence! I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do! SIMON O’CONNOR: The evidence is beyond doubt. There are SCORES of peer-reviewed studies in academic journals. WALLACE CHAPMAN: Richard Prosser, what do you think about fluoride in the water supply? RICHARD PROSSER: I have to say I would be personally against it. SIMON O’CONNOR:[drily, to Prosser] I’ll send you the articles in Nature and by the government’s Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman tomorrow.
Chapman has obviously prepared seriously for this, to the extent of bringing on Doctor JONATHAN BROADBENT, an expert in dental epidemiology from Otago University. Dr Broadbent explains that there is no rational debate about it, and that there has already been a major inquiry on the matter: the major New Zealand study on the effects of fluoridation was completed in 1971. He speaks for a considerable time, and then it’s time to confront the List MP from Hamilton with a cold dose of reality….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: He makes sense, Sue Moroney, you don’t. SUE MORONEY: Well if you base your decision on forty-year-old science—-
At this point, there is sustained jeering from the audience. Cries of “Shame!” and “Ignorant!” can be heard.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: We know where you stand. You stand with Richard Prosser. SUE MORONEY:[nonplussed expression on face] Ummmm….We need an inquiry!
More angry, contemptuous hooting and jeering.
SIMON O’CONNOR: Here we are again, Labour asking for another inquiry. SUE MORONEY:[rictus grin now replaced by angry scowl] Well, FORTY-YEAR-OLD SCIENCE! Do you want to put your faith in forty-year-old science?
Hooting and jeering and derisive laughter continues….
The rest of the show consists of poor, awkward Damian Christie circulating round groups of drinkers, poking a microphone into their midst and trying to get them to answer his extraordinarily inane questions. As usual, this is an excruciatingly painful watch.
Earlier, in the interview in which he revealed his identity to the world, Snowden explained that he had sought refuge in Hong Kong because it “has a strong tradition of free speech” and “a long tradition of protesting in the streets”.
Local activists plan to take to the streets on Saturday in support of Snowden. Groups including the Civil Human Rights Front and international human rights groups will march from Chater Gardens in Central to the US consulate on Garden Road, starting at 3pm.
The march is being organised by In-media, a website supporting freelance journalists.
“We call on Hong Kong to respect international legal standards and procedures relating to the protection of Snowden; we condemn the US government for violating our rights and privacy; and we call on the US not to prosecute Snowden,” the group said in a statement.
Good on Snowden. And what a compliment he has paid to the people of Hong Kong. I am jealous.
On the other hand in an unedifying mirror image of Sue Maroney’s sick comments, a Beijing Communist Party toady calls for Snowden’s deportation:
While many Hong Kong lawmakers, legal experts, activists and members of the public have called on the city’s courts to protect Snowden’s rights, others such as Beijing loyalist lawmaker and former security chief Regina Ip Lau Suk-yee said he should leave.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?
SUE MORONEY: No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.
Maroney. You suck. You are a disgrace to your party.
Fortunately for us. As in New Zealand, in Hong Kong, mainstream politicians are not the only ones who get to have a say. (Marking Hong Kong out as a democratic stand out. And also as a good choice by Snowden as a safe haven.)
Any politician that makes a statement in direct opposition to Edward Snowden’s brave act of conscience, as Maroney has done, does not belong in any political party that claims it stands for democracy.
But not according to “Ask me something that matters” Maroney.
Is Maroney parroting the Labour Party line, here?
Is Maroney speaking for the Labour Party, or for herself?
Why is David Shearer so silent on the spying scandals that have rocked New Zealand and the world?
Can Shearer be trusted to take over John Key’s role as minister for the SIS and GCSB?
When it comes to spying on us: Will an incoming Labour administration under the Shearer gang be a seamless continuation of Business As Usual?
Will a Labour administration repeal the Act that has legalised criminal behavior by the GCSB?
Will law breaking by the SIS the GCSB and the police, continue to be covered up and excused, under a Labour administration as they have been under a National one?
Who are the 88?
Are they really a danger to us?
Will David Shearer as head of the SIS honour OIA requests and release the names of the 88 New Zealanders illegally spied on? So that we, and they, can decide if the illegal intrusion on their privacy was justified?
Will New Zealand be a safe haven for prisoners of conscience under a Labour administration, no matter which country they hale from?
Maybe some Labour Party insiders might like to enlighten us?
That would be Hong Kong, territory of that bastion of free speech and democracy, the People’s Republic of China? Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to. Mind you, given he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does, I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
however, Google does not have powers to incarcerate you in Guantanamo Bay without trial, for no stated reason. That seems to be an important difference.
Sycophants and ideologically trustworthy servants of state power are not the ones who ever have to worry about having to flee state vengeance. You are safe, my friend.
…he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does
In view of your extensive form, it’s difficult to call this one, but I think that statement could be just about the stupidest thing you have ever written on this mostly excellent forum.
I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
Yes, the treatment of Julian Assange and Bradley Manning must have given comfort to all those who value liberty, human rights and justice. Oh yes.
100% right Jenny.Under Key NZ is little more than a vassal state of the U$. Why? Since Rogernomics we’ve bought into the Washington Consensus which is neoliberalism and privatisation and a horror of anything which is Socialist, even a simple mixed economy. Defence wise we’re locked in with Australia, the U$’s sheriff in the southern pacific, our subservience to the U$ is shown by having soldiers in Afghanistan. The greatest figure of South American politics the anti neoliberal Hugo Chavez, Key did not attend his funeral though he visited ex Pinochet Chile. To give asylum to Snowden would be a direct slap in the face to the U$ military hegemony, and our defence agreements with them, no politician in Labour or National would do that.
Without U$ military might in the Pacific there would be a huge power vacuum almost certainly filled by China. The Japanese would almost certainly have to develop nuclear weapons against North Korea and China as a deterrent.
That said we should still give Snowden asylum showing we’re not total toady bastards to U$ military and security dominance
I don’t think you need worry. The US is greatly expanding its presence in the Pacific and nothing we do will change that. Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.
True. The ones we’re experiencing ATM are financial but I was speaking of direct invasion. To stop the financial invasion we’d also have to declare neutrality and then drop the Washington Consensus.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
How about our own government spying on New Zealanders?
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’, i should imagine even tho it doesn’t seem a topic to fire the imagination that there would have been ‘opposition’ to the mass uptake of fluoridation in the 70’s,
i have no strong view either way but would suggest that in the ‘stuffed shirt’ days of the 70’s the prevailing view of ‘science’ would have and has lead to a really nice little earner for chemical companies over many generations,
i havn’t heard of farming communities suffering any worse dental outcomes than ‘towny’ communities do they stuff their water tanks with fluoride…
DoS does ignore one factor. While the fact that the Earth is round hasn’t changed in 40 years, our understanding of medicine, biochemistry, physiology and human health has radically changed.
The harms caused by something like smoking or by pestcides like 245T for example…we know things now about detailed mechanisms that they barely suspected back then.
Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.
Descendant Of Sssmith
Or indeed, the hundred year old science of heavier than air flight.
What nonsensical rationalisations these are. And from an Labour MP who by refusing to support safe haven for Edward Snowden, is supporting the crude and cruel hounding of this brave individual who courageously and at great personal cost has exposed to the public view, a level of intrusive state surveilence into US and other countries citizens engaged in by the US government that would make the East German Stasi blush.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?
SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
What Chapman could have asked her was; Do you have any brains? To which this tory could have given the same answer.
With these sort of statements Sue Maroney shows she properly belongs in the National Party caucus, or the even more whacky ACT caucus. (If there ever was such a thing again).
This is the sort of smug dismissal I would normally expect to come from John Key. And not a Labour Party MP. How on earth did Sue Maroney get on the Labour list?
Jenny, your complaint about Moroney is based on what Moz claims she said. You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
Moroney, and Labour, want an independent enquiry to see whether fluoride is needed or not. That seems sensible given that the opposition to it seems to be reduced to ‘but, nazis!’
You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
You have already been exposed several times for your pettifogging and quibbling, but I see you are back at it. Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim as it would be if I had laboriously transcribed from a tape recording. But I got the key parts of that horrifyingly substandard performance absolutely right, and you know it.
I did not make up any of it—even in my most extravagantly satirical mood, I could not imagine anything as stupid and irresponsible as Sue Moroney came out with on Wednesday night.
Point not so well made is my view, you are comparing the ‘science of nature’ with the ‘chemical science of man’,
The two are as different as chalk and cheese, the Earth is spherical because it is!!! that’s hardly based upon science and it was hardly science that someone at some point gained the means to sail out past the horizon and discover that it ain’t flat,
Ugly Truth in comment 2 links to some large scientific studies that debunk the fluoride myth…
On the contrary, what changes in population health & chemical science is the degree of accuracy, not the facts.
Hence the research about going for 0.7ppm rather than 0.75, as opposed to the range 40 years ag which was say 0.6-1.2ppm.
But the clear benefits of fluoridation were evident 60 years ago, no matter what UT thinks. His link in comment two was incorrect at point one and went downhill from there.
For example: “According to the NIDR’s statisticians, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface! There are 128 tooth surfaces in a child’s mouth.“. Let’s say 200,000 children: that’s 120,000 teeth that require additional treatment such as fillings, capping or extraction before the age of 17 (not to mention the next 60 years).
Farming families are generally issued fluoride tabs, we were. Also did not have much access to soft drink and lollies :-), made up for it when we left home.
Nor had i until i got onto the link in comment 2, which shows that there is a fairly large amount of study by reputable scientists which paint the depositing of fluoride into the water system in a not very favorable light,
i may be wrong but i see Sue Moroney as part of the well meaning middle class who may not have too many clues but are (slightly) left leaning,
The Labour Party is chocka with such people it’s why they can come up with such a grand idea as shoe-horning the children of the middle class onto the ‘property ownership ladder’ whilst remaining eerily SILENT on the economic fate of the Mene Mene’s of this world…
I agree RT – I frequently find myself asking (myself): Who the fuck ARE these people?, and how the hell did this happen?
I know the answer, but I also wonder WHY we keep empowering them.
The Labour Party’s worst enemy (enema even) has always been apathy. But the buggers just KEEP subscribing to the doctor’s prescription – even when it’s giving them the runs.
Who the hell is advising them (I’ll send the boys around – half of them a mates of Mallard anyway)?
An hour or so on, and after a sesh with the proctologist, I’m more the wiser and in no need now of a dainty little dinner party anyway.
The difference between National and Labour is that Nat members strut around asking anyone that will listen “Don’t you know who I am?”, whilst members of Labour ask themselves and anyone that will listen – “who the fuck are “WE”?’
Well I’ve just struck her off my dinner party list! Or maybe not. I’ll discuss my proctologist with her, instead of my psychiatrist – I’m sure she’ll be able to give me some deep and meaningful advice. She’ll probably advise I need a second (perhaps even 3rd) opinion.
“Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program”
Don’t beat around the bush, Morrisey. Tell us what you really think.
50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
Dr. Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University
Having you oppose fluoridation seems one of the best reasons to support it (I guess those strip-club girls don’t care too much about the state of your teeth if you’re bulging at the wallet area).
However, I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply. I doubt there would be that many (a similar, or lesser, proportion than those who signed Hamilton’s failed referendum against it). Plus it could be used as an emergency back-up for the scientifically literate if there was a disruption to the normal water works.
Crap. A handful of obsessive rebels without a cause and chickenship councilors in election year have condemned thousands of high-deprivation children to the misery of excrutiatingly bad oral health and the downstream effects that will last all their lives. And if those same heroes get crook tomorrow, they’ll accept – in fact demand – without the tiniest murmur, every other advance of modern medical science. Selfish, hypocritical, cretins.
regular brushing, morning and night, plenty of ‘sterilization’ over the years, and fluoridated water; only one extraction at 45. (though a few ‘knocked about’; wrong place, wrong time).
😎
LOLZ, obviously didn’t bother to read the ‘science’ contained in comment 2, suppose the ‘scientists’ involved in such studies,(some of them of multi-year duration) are all selfish, hypocritical cretins as well,
It would seem that the consensus of opposition to fluoride in water is that fluoride when applied orally via a toothpaste has some positive effect while adding such to drinking water is dubious at best and if a high enough dose of the stuff is continually added to drinking water there are negative effects becoming apparent…
bad12 if you remember that this debate is now not one of science and rational discourse, it is one of belief systems and world views, it will make more sense. Part of a civic religion in other words.
That’s why you are seeing the emotional polemics, condemning our children to hell, I mean, in the form of a lifetime of decaying rotten teeth. You are messing with the transmitted orthodoxy.
It appears that one’s worship of Uncle Sam is a must in the fluoride ‘debate’, it appears that ALL of non-English speaking Europe has now ceased to apply fluoride to water supplies,
This is obviously a plot by non-English speaking dentists from all over Europe who can see mountains of money to be made from all them kids with bad teeth…
Possibly not as effective for poor people or maybe those who aren’t intimately aware of their micro-nutrient needs, though. Look at the price of higher-calcium milk, for example.
No, it is actual scientific fact. Here’s the first one from the list:
Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride.
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
“But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.”
I’d agree with the second* but would like to see a citation for the first. Modern fluoridation of water happens in places where humans generally eat diets that harm oral health. Are you suggesting that humans that don’t eat like that are better off with fluoridated water too? I haven’t looked to see what the research is saying on this but am curious if you have.
* to an extent. We know that some people don’t keep their teeth for life, or have poor oral health, even when they drink fluoridated water all that time.
All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.
Large numbers of advanced western countries have decided that fluoridation doesn’t justify mandatory use, and several have even withdrawn it from their populations after having had it for many years.
I’m not aware of any evidence which shows that children’s teeth in those countries are significantly worse off after the withdrawal of water fluoridation.
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
McFlock …
16 June 2013 at 10:30 pm
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
McFlock, what key words would you use for a search? I did a quick google and found the following, but not much otherwise.
The best available evidence from studies following withdrawal of water fluoridation indicates that caries prevalence increases, approaching the level of the low fluoride group. Again, however, the studies were of moderate quality (level B), and limited quantity. The estimates of effect could be biased due to poor adjustment for the effects of potential confounding factors.
Note: it appears from a quick read that fluoride also changes the behaviour of bone cells through various poorly understood signalling mechanisms. I wonder what other cell signalling mechanisms it affects.
@Weka – not really my field, but Scandinavia has a pretty good history of epi research so I’d be surprised if they didn’t do something. Beyond the obvious (“fluoride”, etc) I’m not sure where to start.
I find that keyword searches can still overload one with results that are frequently only tangentially related to the actual area of interest – try title word searches as well if keywords bring up nothing useful.
“All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.”
Fair enough. Let me rephrase your earlier comment then,
from –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
to –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth if their oral health is destroyed in other ways and they don’t have fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
Myself, I would also add –
And addressing the reasons why good oral health is not promoted in NZ
at a preventative level is something we should be doing, including looking at meta issues of poverty, education, and whether mass medication is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
“Mass medication” like iodised salt in bread and fluoride in water is prevention, not an ambulance. Even in the most equitable and civilised society, I would expect some initiatives along those lines. Because on the flipside of “personal choice” is “information overload” and “some people will have no freaking idea either way”.
A society that says we won’t ban soft drinks etc in schools or lollies at supermarket check outs, cannot then claim that regulating water fluoridation is prevention. It’s medication instead of prevention. True prevention is making sure that everyone can afford to eat well and has access to healthy foods, and is making sure that knowing how to eat well has the same value as reading and writing. Prevention also doesn’t see tooth decay as separate from diabetes or heart disease.
We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.
behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.
Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.
“behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.”
It’s not the logic behind my thinking. What I think is that if we promoted and practiced true prevention, then the rates of tooth decay would be much lower, and the fluoridation debate would look very different.
“Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.”
Sure. So we can educate (and legislate) about smoking and lots of people will quit, but some won’t. Of course we can’t really know what is going on there until we deal with poverty and the stresses of modern life too (both powerful influences on health).
But let’s say in some mythical world, we did actual health promotion in a meaningful way, poverty was drastically reduced, and people had genuine choices around how to live their lives. Some people still choose to eat lots of sugar and most of them get holes in their teeth. What percentage of the population would that need to be to warrant fluoridation of the water supply?
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I would say that inclusion of a substance in the water supply (or staples like milk or bread) is the best course of action if it has a demonstrable benefit for some, does not cause demonstrable harm to others at the supplied levels, does not affect the appearance and quality of the product, and is more effective/efficient at reaching people in need than other intervention strategies.
So no, if a substance that didn’t adversely affect people was included in the water supply to help other people keep their feet, I would not be opposed to it.
Frankly I don’t get the big deal – being around a car or logburner is much more hazardous than fluoridated water.
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
Yes, it’s a balancing of rights to a certain degree (although, as you show, those worked up enough about flouridation would also have other issues with the municipal water supply). Excuse me for getting terse, but in the cases of folate in bread and water fluoridation, it’s the right to pretend to be able to control micronutrient intake (have you tested your bore for fluoride or other non-H2O substances? Down to less than one part per million?) against the right of other people to live healthier lives.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
It looks to me like less than 5% of people have access to naturally occurring fluoride in water.
In the UK for instance wikipedia says 0.5M people receive naturally fluoridated water.
@ Ugly
The facts I can cope with fine. It’s pusillanimous hysteria and delusion that I have a problem with…
@Bad12
That’s not science – that’s a manipulative list from someone that regards pseudosciences such as; naturopathy, and chiropracty, as valid. I have no time for Paul Conman – link to someone with scientific credibility please. Here’s a link for you in the meantime: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/
Let me know when you can comprehend the the difference, Pasupial.
Fluoride is a poison. It is a roughly as toxic as lead or arsenic, and it accumulates in the body. Fluorosis causes bone hardening, which makes osteoporosis more hazardous, and fluorine can cause loss of IQ and docility.
Fluoride was find used by the Nazis to keep prisoners docile and manageable, Later it was introduced into US water supplies under the watch of Andrew Mellon, a Nazi supporter and eugenicist.
His point is that the amounts of fluoride added to the water supply while not toxic in themselves have the ability to build up in the body bonding with other metallic elements as the body has not the means to expel an over-supply of fluorides…
I’d like a link about fluoride compounds accumulating in the body tissues or joints manner of heavy metals, rather than simply being consumed at higher levels than they can be excreted.
It’s a claim UT has made repeatedly without providing any evidence, and I suspect has similar provenance to their Jacques Cousteau “quote”, which turned out to be bunk.
Hey UT, I’m sure you’re also against dihydrogen monoxide?
Here are some facts about it:
* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
There are many more problems with it, too, but that’s just a short list to give you a taste.
Would you be surprised to learn that DHMO is found in all public drinking water, at concentrations that can lead to all of the above problems? The Nazis also made extensive use of DHMO in their concentration camps. Surely we should ban it too?
“There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.”
Nor a shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between what the nazis did as experiments and torture, vs what health professionals do under informed science for the betterment of public health.
The Nazis didn’t give fluoride to prisoners as an experiment or as a form of torture, and health professionals were never originally informed of the actual science, they were simply fed the Carnegie-Mellon propaganda.
“In Australia, the Dental Health & Research Foundation, which has such names as Colgate, Kellogg and other ex-Farben associates listed among it’s ‘governors and contributors’, has been irreverently but accurately dubbed “the Fluoride Mafia”. Closely allied with this Sydney University ‘Foundation’, in its printed promotional claims for fluorides and fluoridation, is ‘Foundation 41’. Unfortunately, the data of the “thorough investigations” said to have been carried out by the Foundation into fluoride, its benefits and its hazards, have never been made available, despite numerous appeals. A recent ABC Science Show’s examination of the scientific integrity of Foundation 41 may explain the elusive data. America is literally bursting at the seams with such Foundations, but amongst the earlier names were the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and the Ford Foundation. It is necessary to mention these specifically because they were the first Foundations to make grants in the population (control) field and the Carnegie family merged with the Mellon family Institute to create the Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1967.”
If only your passion for this nonsense could be turned to some cause more productive than endangering the health of Aotearoan communities.
At 2.2 I say that: “I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply.” I was going to further suggest that this might also be an advantage for attracting European tourists, but am now starting to think that might be a very bad idea.
If the anti-fluoridation mob were to be given power over a large vat of water in every town; how long would it before they started drowning witches?
The NZEI union has been asked to address concerns held by some staff at Auckland’s Kelston Intermediate School over reciting a Maori prayer before lessons start each day.
The school recites a karakia at the start of its weekly assembly and in classrooms before lessons begin.
Staff deliver the prayer, which asks for the day to be blessed, help with work and to have a good week.
An NZEI spokeswoman confirmed the union was intervening at the school.
This story intrigued me because the principal says
he had no idea some staff were unhappy with karakia in the classroom until contacted by the union representative.
What has happened around communication at that school – I can’t understand why any issues couldn’t be raised with the principal instead of going to the union.
and he said
I guess what they might have been inquiring about is the presence of karakia, etc, within school so we talked about what we’re doing is not a religious thing but a cultural thing.
A karakia by definition is spiritual and that is the point of it – sure it is in Te reo Māori and is good practice for pronunciation but to take away the cultural context is not correct imo.
I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.
If there’s actual education/discussion around why they do the karakia, awesome. But the original article doesn’t tell us that.
“I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.”
I would expect an intermediate school in Auckland to have the cultural context spread throughout the curriculum and day to day goings on of the school (as it should be).
The other schools quoted in the article appear to have developed use of karakia as part of cultural practice within the school over time.
Beautiful karakia, I hadn’t seen that before. The explanation in the link is really good – showing not just the translation and structure of karakia, but the cultural differences, and how karakia is about taking us into relationship with the world (which is actually how some Christians and other religions use prayer, for anyone thinking it’s just about having an imaginary friend).
“Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
This is recited where some people work, too, and it hasn’t compromised with their ‘godlessness’ either.
Interestingly, it was hearing that prayer, and the farce that follows it often, that sparked my interest in watching Parliament live. Major Frank Burns.
One of the many unsung roles of union reps – a worker has a concern and (for whatever reason) doesn’t feel comfortable approaching the employer about it themselves. Sorting out issues in the workplace so bad feelings don’t fester and harm the organisation.
Did simon bridges get a nice new 32ml cancer unit for Tauranga for being a good boy?Funny to see paula bennett holding the high moral ground about private info being sent a person who is supposedly blackmailing her Dept in a bid to have her child returned to her, when she herself blackmailed two beneficiaries, who challenged her policies, by threatening publication of their private and personal details. Which she in fact did. Deeply hypocritical.
Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, and cancer is no great respecter of ethnicity – methinks you have scored an own goal.
“Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, “
Given that diabetes and heart disease are huge health problems world-wide, don’t you think there might be something other than ethnicity in play?
“Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.
Type 2 diabetes most often occurs in adulthood usually after the ages of 30 – 40 years. However, increasing numbers of teenagers and children are developing Type 2 diabetes. New estimates indicate 500 young people aged between 10 and 18 years have the disease that was, only a few years ago, virtually unknown in this age group.
I reckon spending money to to prevent as much heart disease and Type-2 diabetes as possible – to enable people to work, and care for themselves, to reduce sickness and invalid benefits and reduce the need for expensive heart surgeries, dialysis for kidney failure and amputations due to poor circulation might be a good public health spend for taxpayers of whatever age or class.
that is revealing about the incidence among the young rosy. You may not have used the term ‘public health’ correctly; this funding is likely to be directed to secondary and tertiary interventions.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough – I meant the Public Health spend to prevent heart disease and Type-2 diabetes. These may later require secondary and tertiary interventions once the disease are established.
““Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.”
Yes, but I suspect that CV’s point was that the money follows middle class, middle aged concerns. In this case, the fact that the low socio-economic classes benefit is a side effect.
The Sensible Sentencing Trust is not, and never was, a charity Sunday with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 June 2013
Main topic for discussion today is the deregistration of charities. First up, an interesting interview with the former director of CORSO, a real charity which was effectively destroyed by John Key’s hero Robert Muldoon in the late 1970s. Then, like night follows day, just as I predicted to my “companion”, this was followed by a respectful interview with….yes, you guessed it!…the utterly despicable Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Imperial Grand Dragon of the knife-killing advocates, the S.S. Trust.
Appalled I flicked off the following email….
Dear Chris,
Jeremy Rose interviewed the S.S. Trust’s Garth McVicar as if he and his organization were a benevolent organization trying to do good work. In fact, the S.S. Trust is the very opposite of benevolent. When a teenage boy was chased down on a Manurewa street and stabbed to death in 2008, McVicar and his organization led a public campaign of defamation of the dead boy and heaped abuse and scorn on his parents and his wider family.
To compound this, he championed the man who had killed the boy as an “upstanding New Zealander.” Far from moderating these extreme views, McVicar amplified them in his book, entitled with brazen cynicism Justice: Speaking up for Crime’s Silent Victims.
McVicar continually portrays himself as a victim of official discrimination, as well as a victims’ rights advocate. He is neither. And his organization is not, and never was, a charity unless that word has been drained of meaning.
Yours in disgust at the continual publicity afforded the S.S. Trust,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
————————————————-
Hopefully Chris Laidlaw will read it out. He did read out THIS one that I sent him exactly two months ago….
Garth McVicar should be declared persona non grata; why is he still being treated with deference?
Dear Chris,
In the lead item on this morning’s Mediawatch, Colin Peacock spoke of Garth McVicar’s Sensible Sentencing Trust as if it were a victims’ advocacy organization.
The facts are somewhat different.
In 2008, after a teenage boy was chased down and stabbed to death on the street in Manurewa, Garth McVicar was loud in his condemnation—of the dead boy. McVicar spoke sympathetically and supportively about the killer, and he went on to lead an extraordinarily brutal media campaign of character assassination of the victim and his family.
In his recent authorized biography, McVicar reiterated his support for the killer.
I am disturbed that Mediawatch, and indeed Radio New Zealand National, still treats this vicious and cruel person with respect.
2007: which leading American politician spoke out most strongly against spying on ordinary US citizens?
Here is the quote:
“This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.”
His earlier positions, even as President, have been re-played on the television news.
That McCain sure is a Warhawk; interesting that the USS Forrestal fire was in ’67.
Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, disclosed this week that during a secret briefing to members of Congress, he was told that the contents of a phone call could be accessed “simply based on an analyst deciding that.”
If the NSA wants “to listen to the phone,” an analyst’s decision is sufficient, without any other legal authorization required, Nadler said he learned. “I was rather startled,” said Nadler, an attorney and congressman who serves on the House Judiciary committee.
Not only does this disclosure shed more light on how the NSA’s formidable eavesdropping apparatus works domestically it also suggests the Justice Department has secretly interpreted federal surveillance law to permit thousands of low-ranking analysts to eavesdrop on phone calls.
Because the same legal standards that apply to phone calls also apply to e-mail messages, text messages, and instant messages, Nadler’s disclosure indicates the NSA analysts could also access the contents of Internet communications without going before a court and seeking approval.
The disclosure appears to confirm some of the allegations made by Edward Snowden, a former NSA infrastructure analyst who leaked classified documents to the Guardian. Snowden said in a video interview that, while not all NSA analysts had this ability, he could from Hawaii “wiretap anyone from you or your accountant to a federal judge to even the president.”
There are serious “constitutional problems” with this approach, said Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff attorney at the Electronic Frontier Foundation who has litigated warrantless wiretapping cases. “It epitomizes the problem of secret laws.”
The NSA yesterday declined to comment to CNET. A representative said Nadler was not immediately available. (This is unrelated to last week’s disclosure that the NSA is currently collecting records of the metadata of all domestic Verizon calls, but not the actual contents of the conversations.)
And many of those “low ranking analysts” are not even govt employees, they are private sector consultants like Snowden.
Basically the whole issue has moved beyond that of simple spin; when it comes to matters this important the authorities feel that they have to lie, for our own good.
The author of the Patriot Act, Rep Sensenbrenner, regards how his Act is being used today as an outright abuse of the law, and says that the Act was designed to prevent exactly this kind of “dragnet” surveillance. He is actively campaigning in the House on this.
Interesting Pop. What part of the Patriot Act are you talking about?
I ask because it’s a really long Act, I’m surprised you’ve read it to be honest. The relevant Act here would appear to be FISA though:
That law says surveillance may be authorized by the attorney general and director of national intelligence without prior approval by the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, as long as minimization requirements and general procedures blessed by the court are followed.
A requirement of the 2008 law is that the NSA “may not intentionally target any person known at the time of acquisition to be located in the United States.” A possible interpretation of that language, some legal experts said, is that the agency may vacuum up everything it can domestically — on the theory that indiscriminate data acquisition was not intended to “target” a specific American citizen.
That’s how they grab everything (yet to be tested in any court AFAIA), it isn’t deemed collected until someone looks at the data, (another ‘interpretation’ of an Act that is yet to be tested in the courts). From there (having it on file) analysts seem to be have been given authority to look at what’s been grabbed without a warrant under FISA, or anything else. So where in the Patriot Act is this made legal, seeing it would appear to be in breach of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten me.
Spill. You’ve got some theory that you reckon shuld be obvious to everyone, and yet no one is citing it as justification. Head of NSA has denied over the years that they are doing what you claim is justified by the Act.
I’m interested in what you think, care to share it?
This is the best mainstream in depth report I’ve seen so far, oddly no one seems to have picked up on your theory Pop, whatever it is. This report details Bush era legal types threatening to resign over metadata gathering, far less than what you allege people would have to be naive to think isn’t going on.
Here’s a good example of a typical horror story of Privatisation in the U$K.
Thames Water had been set up with the taxpayer’s commonwealth but under the neoliberal madness of Thatcher and the profit mad greedies following it’s been prvatised. On a turnover of over a billion pounds they made a profit of half a billion which they don’t pay tax on as they’re registered in the Carribean somewhere ! 🙁 ! people are complaining about water being too expensive and they’re getting sewage contaminated water.
The UK is toast in my opinion. Labour and the Conservatives are basically the same and seem to be equally dedicated in razing the UK to the ground, in the name of neo liberalism. Sadly things won’t improve in the UK, eventually the UK will have the same inequality and poverty as places like India.
The young people of Turkey are rejecting the corporate fascism islam tainted of neoliberalism and market tyranny. Profit and money more important than people.
Good response from Marama and The Greens to the latest from labour
A suggestion by the Labour candidate for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti that New Zealand should ‘stop immigrant workers coming here’ has been slammed by the Green Party.
Responding to comments Meka Whaitiri made in an iwi radio interview on Friday, Green Party candidate Marama Davidson said such attitudes were out of date and out of place in Ikaroa-Rāwhiti.
“I could not believe the Labour candidate seriously suggested that we should adopt the xenophobic policies of the far right” said Ms Davidson who worked for ten years at the Human Rights Commission.
Tangata whenua will continue to fight for their right to equality as guaranteed in the Treaty and as the indigenous people of these islands, and those opposed will continue to oppose it. That is what has, is, and will, continue to happen until equality is achieved imo.
I’m not greatly in favour of increasing general immigration to NZ, so was pleased to see this from Davidson
“Rather than banning all migrant workers, the Green Party would support a review of the special permit process that seasonal workers come in on to fill so-called labour shortages”
Solid interview by Kim Hill, but it mainly covers Edmonds’ background with the FBI, not her more recent work on Gladio-B and the Syria angle. Some nuggets were Edmonds’ accounts of the FBI’s lack of accountability, rewarding of unlawful behaviour and post 9/11 contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri. Also good info on the US states secrets privilege, the US mainstream press withholding damaging material, and data collected by security agencies being held for blackmail purposes.
Looks like Kim Hill doesn’t know what due process is either.
The worst wild-fire in Colorado history http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10890898
it’s a Cisco Inferno, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine,
He drink whiskey, Poncho drink the wine
They rode the sunset, horse was made of steel
The outlaws had us pinned down at the fort
Cisco came in blastin’ drinkin’ port.
Hi Rogue Trooper
Climate Change. We’re no longer in the relatively stable climate since the last ice age ended but are in a new climate of an open ended warming world in despite of which some places are getting colder i.e. UK. Arctic Ice cap retreat is causing that.
Note torrential rain in the Nelson area one woman killed by a slip,we’re getting it too.
Despite best efforts (things that do not work) Child Abuse in New Zealand has risen by nearly a third in the last five years; 21 000 new cases last year, 4000 in state care, of which 21 children were subjected to further abuse by carers
“Horrific, we should be ashamed…a lot of policy written, yet a gap between policy and practice in this country”. – Judge Carolyn Henwood.
Robert Schlaifer on the THEORY – PRACTICE GAP. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schlaifer
Bring to test as soon as possible a number of alternate designs-pick one that combined good characterictics with few developmental problems-then work intensely to develop it.
Now that should not be too difficult now, should it?
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Building your own computer can be a rewarding and cost-effective way to get a high-performance machine tailored to your specific needs. However, it also requires careful planning and execution, and one of the most important factors to consider is the time it will take. The exact time it takes to ...
Sleep mode is a power-saving state that allows your computer to quickly resume operation without having to boot up from scratch. This can be useful if you need to step away from your computer for a short period of time but don’t want to shut it down completely. There are ...
Introduction Computer-Assisted Translation (CAT) has revolutionized the field of translation by harnessing the power of technology to assist human translators in their work. This innovative approach combines specialized software with human expertise to improve the efficiency, accuracy, and consistency of translations. In this comprehensive article, we will delve into the ...
In today’s digital age, mobile devices have become an indispensable part of our daily lives. Among the vast array of portable computing options available, iPads and tablet computers stand out as two prominent contenders. While both offer similar functionalities, there are subtle yet significant differences between these two devices. This ...
A computer is an electronic device that can be programmed to carry out a set of instructions. The basic components of a computer are the processor, memory, storage, input devices, and output devices. The Processor The processor, also known as the central processing unit (CPU), is the brain of the ...
Voice Memos is a convenient app on your iPhone that allows you to quickly record and store audio snippets. These recordings can be useful for a variety of purposes, such as taking notes, capturing ideas, or recording interviews. While you can listen to your voice memos on your iPhone, you ...
Laptop screens are essential for interacting with our devices and accessing information. However, when lines appear on the screen, it can be frustrating and disrupt productivity. Understanding the underlying causes of these lines is crucial for finding effective solutions. Types of Screen Lines Horizontal lines: Also known as scan ...
Right-clicking is a common and essential computer operation that allows users to access additional options and settings. While most desktop computers have dedicated right-click buttons on their mice, laptops often do not have these buttons due to space limitations. This article will provide a comprehensive guide on how to right-click ...
Powering up and shutting down your ASUS laptop is an essential task for any laptop user. Locating the power button can sometimes be a hassle, especially if you’re new to ASUS laptops. This article will provide a comprehensive guide on where to find the power button on different ASUS laptop ...
Dell laptops are renowned for their reliability, performance, and versatility. Whether you’re a student, a professional, or just someone who needs a reliable computing device, a Dell laptop can meet your needs. However, if you’re new to Dell laptops, you may be wondering how to get started. In this comprehensive ...
Te Pāti Māori are demanding the New Zealand Government support an international independent investigation into mass graves that have been uncovered at two hospitals on the Gaza strip, following weeks of assault by Israeli troops. Among the 392 bodies that have been recovered, are children and elderly civilians. Many of ...
Our two-tiered system for veterans’ support is out of step with our closest partners, and all parties in Parliament should work together to fix it, Labour veterans’ affairs spokesperson Greg O’Connor said. ...
Stripping two Ministers of their portfolios just six months into the job shows Christopher Luxon’s management style is lacking, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said. ...
Tonight’s court decision to overturn the summons of the Children’s Minister has enabled the Crown to continue making decisions about Māori without evidence, says Te Pāti Māori spokesperson for Children, Mariameno Kapa-Kingi. “The judicial system has this evening told the nation that this government can do whatever they want when ...
It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
The Government is making short-sighted changes to the Resource Management Act (RMA) that will take away environmental protection in favour of short-term profits, Labour’s environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
Labour welcomes the release of the report into the North Island weather events and looks forward to working with the Government to ensure that New Zealand is as prepared as it can be for the next natural disaster. ...
The Labour Party has called for the New Zealand Government to recognise Palestine, as a material step towards progressing the two-State solution needed to achieve a lasting peace in the region. ...
Some of our country’s most important work, stopping the sexual exploitation of children and violent extremism could go along with staff on the frontline at ports and airports. ...
The Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill will give projects such as new coal mines a ‘get out of jail free’ card to wreak havoc on the environment, Labour Leader Chris Hipkins said today. ...
The government's decision to reintroduce Three Strikes is a destructive and ineffective piece of law-making that will only exacerbate an inherently biased and racist criminal justice system, said Te Pāti Māori Justice Spokesperson, Tākuta Ferris, today. During the time Three Strikes was in place in Aotearoa, Māori and Pasifika received ...
Cuts to frontline hospital staff are not only a broken election promise, it shows the reckless tax cuts have well and truly hit the frontline of the health system, says Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall. ...
The Green Party has joined the call for public submissions on the fast-track legislation to be extended after the Ombudsman forced the Government to release the list of organisations invited to apply just hours before submissions close. ...
New Zealand’s good work at reducing climate emissions for three years in a row will be undone by the National government’s lack of ambition and scrapping programmes that were making a difference, Labour Party climate spokesperson Megan Woods said today. ...
More essential jobs could be on the chopping block, this time Ministry of Education staff on the school lunches team are set to find out whether they're in line to lose their jobs. ...
Te Pāti Māori is disgusted at the confirmation that hundreds are set to lose their jobs at Oranga Tamariki, and the disestablishment of the Treaty Response Unit. “This act of absolute carelessness and out of touch decision making is committing tamariki to state abuse.” Said Te Pāti Māori Oranga Tamariki ...
The Government is trying to bring in a law that will allow Ministers to cut corners and kill off native species, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said. ...
Cancelling urgently needed new Cook Strait ferries and hiking the cost of public transport for many Kiwis so that National can announce the prospect of another tunnel for Wellington is not making good choices, Labour Transport Spokesperson Tangi Utikere said. ...
A laundry list of additional costs for Tāmaki Makarau Auckland shows the Minister for the city is not delivering for the people who live there, says Labour Auckland Issues spokesperson Shanan Halbert. ...
Te Pāti Māori co-leader Rawiri Waititi, and Mema Paremata mō Tāmaki-Makaurau, Takutai Tarsh Kemp, will travel to the Gold Coast to strengthen ties with Māori in Australia next week (15-21 April). The visit, in the lead-up to the 9th Australian National Kapa haka Festival, will be an opportunity for both ...
The Green Party has today launched a step-by-step guide to help New Zealanders make their voice heard on the Government’s democracy dodging and anti-environment fast track legislation. ...
The National Government’s proposed changes to the Residential Tenancies Act will mean tenants can be turfed from their homes by landlords with little notice, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Green Party co-leader Marama Davidson is calling on all parties to support a common-sense change that’s great for the planet and great for consumers after her member’s bill was drawn from the ballot today. ...
A significant milestone has been reached in the fight to strike an anti-Pasifika and unfair law from the country’s books after Teanau Tuiono’s members’ bill passed its first reading. ...
New Zealand has today missed the opportunity to uphold the right to a clean, healthy, and sustainable environment, says James Shaw after his member’s bill was voted down in its first reading. ...
Today’s advice from the Climate Change Commission paints a sobering reality of the challenge we face in combating climate change, especially in light of recent Government policy announcements. ...
Minister for Disability Issues Penny Simmonds appears to have delayed a report back to Cabinet on the progress New Zealand is making against international obligations for disabled New Zealanders. ...
Ambassador Millar, Burgemeester, Vandepitte, Excellencies, military representatives, distinguished guests, ladies and gentlemen – good morning and welcome to this sacred Anzac Day dawn service. It is an honour to be here on behalf of the Government and people of New Zealand at Buttes New British Cemetery, Polygon Wood – a deeply ...
Distinguished guests - It is an honour to return once again to this site which, as the resting place for so many of our war-dead, has become a sacred place for generations of New Zealanders. Our presence here and at the other special spaces of Gallipoli is made ...
Mai ia tawhiti pamamao, te moana nui a Kiwa, kua tae whakaiti mai matou, ki to koutou papa whenua. No koutou te tapuwae, no matou te tapuwae, kua honoa pumautia. Ko nga toa kua hinga nei, o te Waipounamu, o te Ika a Maui, he okioki tahi me o ...
Paul Goldsmith will take on responsibility for the Media and Communications portfolio, while Louise Upston will pick up the Disability Issues portfolio, Prime Minister Christopher Luxon announced today. “Our Government is relentlessly focused on getting New Zealand back on track. As issues change in prominence, I plan to adjust Ministerial ...
Recreational catch limits will be reduced in areas of Fiordland and the Chatham Islands to help keep those fisheries healthy and sustainable, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. The lower recreational daily catch limits for a range of finfish and shellfish species caught in the Fiordland Marine Area and ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has welcomed an important milestone in New Zealand’s hydrogen future, with the opening of the country’s first network of hydrogen refuelling stations in Wiri. “I want to congratulate the team at Hiringa Energy and its partners K one W one (K1W1), Mitsui & Co New Zealand ...
The coalition Government is delivering on its commitment to improve resource management laws and give greater certainty to consent applicants, with a Bill to amend the Resource Management Act (RMA) expected to be introduced to Parliament next month. RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop has today outlined the first RMA Amendment ...
Overseas models for regulating the oil and gas sector, including their decommissioning regimes, are being carefully scrutinised as a potential template for New Zealand’s own sector, Resources Minister Shane Jones says. The Coalition Government is focused on rebuilding investor confidence in New Zealand’s energy sector as it looks to strengthen ...
Emergency Management and Recovery Minister Mark Mitchell has today released the Report of the Government Inquiry into the response to the North Island Severe Weather Events. “The report shows that New Zealand’s emergency management system is not fit-for-purpose and there are some significant gaps we need to address,” Mr Mitchell ...
Justice Minister Paul Goldsmith is today travelling to Europe where he’ll update the United Nations Human Rights Council on the Government’s work to restore law and order. “Attending the Universal Periodic Review in Geneva provides us with an opportunity to present New Zealand’s human rights progress, priorities, and challenges, while ...
Associate Agriculture Minister, Mark Patterson, formally reopened the world’s largest wool processing facility today in Awatoto, Napier, following a $50 million rebuild and refurbishment project. “The reopening of this facility will significantly lift the economic opportunities available to New Zealand’s wool sector, which already accounts for 20 per cent of ...
Hon Andrew Bayly, Minister for Small Business and Manufacturing At the Southland Otago Regional Engineering Collective (SOREC) Summit, 18 April, Dunedin Ngā mihi nui, Ko Andrew Bayly aho, Ko Whanganui aho Good Afternoon and thank you for inviting me to open your summit today. I am delighted ...
The Government is delivering on its commitment to bring back the Three Strikes legislation, Associate Justice Minister Nicole McKee announced today. “Our Government is committed to restoring law and order and enforcing appropriate consequences on criminals. We are making it clear that repeat serious violent or sexual offending is not ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today announced four new diplomatic appointments for New Zealand’s overseas missions. “Our diplomats have a vital role in maintaining and protecting New Zealand’s interests around the world,” Mr Peters says. “I am pleased to announce the appointment of these senior diplomats from the ...
New Zealand is contributing NZ$7 million to support communities affected by severe food insecurity and other urgent humanitarian needs in Ethiopia and Somalia, Foreign Minister Rt Hon Winston Peters announced today. “Over 21 million people are in need of humanitarian assistance across Ethiopia, with a further 6.9 million people ...
Minister for Arts, Culture and Heritage Paul Goldsmith is congratulating Mataaho Collective for winning the Golden Lion for best participant in the main exhibition at the Venice Biennale. "Congratulations to the Mataaho Collective for winning one of the world's most prestigious art prizes at the Venice Biennale. “It is good ...
The Government is reforming financial services to improve access to home loans and other lending, and strengthen customer protections, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly and Housing Minister Chris Bishop announced today. “Our coalition Government is committed to rebuilding the economy and making life simpler by cutting red tape. We are ...
“China remains a strong commercial opportunity for Kiwi exporters as Chinese businesses and consumers continue to value our high-quality safe produce,” Trade and Agriculture Minister Todd McClay says. Mr McClay has returned to New Zealand following visits to Beijing, Harbin and Shanghai where he met ministers, governors and mayors and engaged in trade and agricultural events with the New ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has completed a successful trip to Singapore, Thailand and the Philippines, deepening relationships and capitalising on opportunities. Mr Luxon was accompanied by a business delegation and says the choice of countries represents the priority the New Zealand Government places on South East Asia, and our relationships in ...
New Zealand is demonstrating its commitment to reducing global greenhouse emissions, and supporting clean energy transition in South East Asia, through a contribution of NZ$41 million (US$25 million) in climate finance to the Asian Development Bank (ADB)-led Energy Transition Mechanism (ETM). Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Climate Change Minister Simon Watts announced ...
The Government is today releasing a list of organisations who received letters about the Fast-track applications process, says RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop. “Recently Ministers and agencies have received a series of OIA requests for a list of organisations to whom I wrote with information on applying to have a ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins today announced the appointment of Wellington Barrister David Jonathan Boldt as a Judge of the High Court, and the Honourable Justice Matthew Palmer as a Judge of the Court of Appeal. Justice Boldt graduated with an LLB from Victoria University of Wellington in 1990, and also holds ...
Education Minister Erica Stanford will lead the New Zealand delegation at the 2024 International Summit on the Teaching Profession (ISTP) held in Singapore. The delegation includes representatives from the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) Te Wehengarua and the New Zealand Educational Institute (NZEI) Te Riu Roa. The summit is co-hosted ...
A stopbank upgrade project in Tairawhiti partly funded by the Government has increased flood resilience for around 7000ha of residential and horticultural land so far, Regional Development Minister Shane Jones says. Mr Jones today attended a dawn service in Gisborne to mark the end of the first stage of the ...
Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters will represent the Government at Anzac Day commemorations on the Gallipoli Peninsula next week and engage with senior representatives of the Turkish government in Istanbul. “The Gallipoli campaign is a defining event in our history. It will be a privilege to share the occasion ...
Science, Innovation and Technology and Defence Minister Judith Collins will next week attend the OECD Science and Technology Ministerial conference in Paris and Anzac Day commemorations in Belgium. “Science, innovation and technology have a major role to play in rebuilding our economy and achieving better health, environmental and social outcomes ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon held a bilateral meeting today with the President of the Philippines, Ferdinand Marcos Jr. The Prime Minister was accompanied by MP Paulo Garcia, the first Filipino to be elected to a legislature outside the Philippines. During today’s meeting, Prime Minister Luxon and President Marcos Jr discussed opportunities to ...
The Government has announced that $20 million in funding will be made available to Westport to fund much needed flood protection around the town. This measure will significantly improve the resilience of the community, says Local Government Minister Simeon Brown. “The Westport community has already been allocated almost $3 million ...
The Government is proud to support the first ever Repco Supercars Championship event in Taupō as up to 70,000 motorsport fans attend the Taupō International Motorsport Park this weekend, says Economic Development Minister Melissa Lee. “Anticipation for the ITM Taupō Super400 is huge, with tickets and accommodation selling out weeks ...
Local Government Minister Simeon Brown has announced an increase to the Rates Rebate Scheme, putting money back into the pockets of low-income homeowners. “The coalition Government is committed to bringing down the cost of living for New Zealanders. That includes targeted support for those Kiwis who are doing things tough, such ...
The Coalition Government is investing in a project to boost survival rates of New Zealand mussels and grow the industry, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones has announced. “This project seeks to increase the resilience of our mussels and significantly boost the sector’s productivity,” Mr Jones says. “The project - ...
Benefit figures released today underscore the importance of the Government’s plan to rebuild the economy and have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker Support, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “Benefit numbers are still significantly higher than when National was last in government, when there was about 70,000 fewer ...
The Government’s commitment to doubling New Zealand’s renewable energy capacity is backed by new data showing that clean energy has helped the country reach its lowest annual gross emissions since 1999, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. New Zealand’s latest Greenhouse Gas Inventory (1990-2022) published today, shows gross emissions fell ...
The Government is bringing the earthquake-prone building review forward, with work to start immediately, and extending the deadline for remediations by four years, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “Our Government is focused on rebuilding the economy. A key part of our plan is to cut red tape that ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and his Thai counterpart, Prime Minister Srettha Thavisin, have today agreed that New Zealand and the Kingdom of Thailand will upgrade the bilateral relationship to a Strategic Partnership by 2026. “New Zealand and Thailand have a lot to offer each other. We have a strong mutual desire to build ...
RMA Reform Minister Chris Bishop and Transport Minister Simeon Brown have today announced the Coalition Government’s intention to extend port coastal permits for a further 20 years, providing port operators with certainty to continue their operations. “The introduction of the Resource Management Act in 1991 required ports to obtain coastal ...
Today’s announcement that inflation is down to 4 per cent is encouraging news for Kiwis, but there is more work to be done - underlining the importance of the Government’s plan to get the economy back on track, acting Finance Minister Chris Bishop says. “Inflation is now at 4 per ...
Refreshed health guidance released today will help parents and schools make informed decisions about whether their child needs to be in school, addressing one of the key issues affecting school attendance, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. In recent years, consistently across all school terms, short-term illness or medical reasons ...
Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones is streamlining high-level oceans management while maintaining a focus on supporting the sector’s role in the export-led recovery of the economy. “I am working to realise the untapped potential of our fishing and aquaculture sector. To achieve that we need to be smarter with ...
I was initially resistant to the idea often suggested to me that the Government should deliver an arts strategy. The whole point of the arts and creativity is that people should do whatever the hell they want, unbound by the dictates of politicians in Wellington. Peter Jackson, Kiri Te Kanawa, Eleanor ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kim Hemsley, Head, Childhood Dementia Research Group, Flinders Health and Medical Research Institute, College of Medicine and Public Health, Flinders University Olena Ivanova/Shutterstock “Childhood” and “dementia” are two words we wish we didn’t have to use together. But sadly, around 1,400 ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Peter Whiteford, Professor, Crawford School of Public Policy, Australian National University The government’s Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee has just published its second report. It was set up by Treasurer Jim Chalmers and Minister for Social Services Amanda Rishworth in 2022 to provide: ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adrian Beaumont, Election Analyst (Psephologist) at The Conversation; and Honorary Associate, School of Mathematics and Statistics, The University of Melbourne The Queensland state election will be held in October. A YouGov poll for The Courier Mail, conducted April 9–17 from a sample ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Amin Naeni, PhD candidate at Alfred Deakin Institute for Citizenship and Globalisation, Deakin University There’s been much talk in recent months about what a possible second Donald Trump presidency in the United States could mean for Europe, Russia’s war in Ukraine, the ...
A brief round-up of submissions on the controversial proposed law. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week, submissions on the controversial Fast-track Approvals Bill closed just hours after the government released a list of stakeholder organisations who were sent letters advising how they could ...
A poem from Robin Peace’s new collection Detritus of Empire: feather / grass / rock. Cereal giving I see a woman’s hands, see her curious hands break a stalk as she walks through the tall prairie, the savannah, the steppe, wherever it was. See her idly bite the grass that ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Hemingway’s Goblet by Dermot Ross (Mary Egan Publishing, $38)A handsomely produced (debossed cover, lovely ...
The Commissioner's decision validates the longstanding efforts of the local community and ensures that Awataha Marae will be managed to serve the needs of the local community, particularly for hosting tangihanga. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tristan Salles, Associate professor, University of Sydney Examples of Australian landscapes.Unsplash Seventy thousand years ago, the sea level was much lower than today. Australia, along with New Guinea and Tasmania, formed a connected landmass known as Sahul. Around this time – ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Felicity Castagna, Lecturer, Creative Writing, Western Sydney University Day Day Market, ParramattaPhoto: Garry Trinh I live on the edge of Parramatta, Australia’s fastest-growing city, on the kind of old-fashioned suburban street that has 1950s fibros constructed in the post-war housing boom, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Ryan, Teaching Fellow in Economics, University of Waikato GettyImagesfatido/Getty Images There is an ongoing global debate over whether the high inflation seen in the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic can be lowered without a recession. New Zealand is not ...
The ‘Wicked Game’ heartthrob is in his late 60s now. That didn’t stop him putting on a lively, goofy and very sparkly show. Apart from ‘Wicked Game’, which graces a sultry playlist of mine simply called 💋, my last sustained Chris Isaak listening session took place when I was about ...
Analysis - Two ministers were stripped of portfolios in a warning to Cabinet, drama broke out at the Waitangi Tribunal, and the gang patch ban bill ran into opposition. ...
Tara Ward makes an impassioned plea for some vital pop culture merch. In April 1999, I became obsessed with a new reality television show called Popstars. Every Tuesday night, five strangers transformed into music royalty before my very eyes as Joe, Keri, Carly, Erika and Megan were chosen to form ...
PNG Post-Courier In the early hours of ANZAC Day, aerial photographs captured an impressive gathering of Australians and Papua New Guineans at Isurava in the Northern (Oro) Province. The solemn dawn service yesterday was held at a site steeped in history, where some of the fiercest battles of World War ...
The PSA is shocked that Oranga Tamariki has used the cost cutting drive to downgrade its commitment to Te Ao Māori and remove many specialist Māori roles. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Kemish, Adjunct Professor, School of Historical and Philosophical Inquiry, The University of Queensland There can be no more powerful symbol of the relationship between Australia and Papua New Guinea than the prime ministers of these neighbouring countries walking together on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sharon Robinson, Distinguished Professor and Deputy Director of ARC Securing Antarctica’s Environmental Future (SAEF), University of Wollongong, University of Wollongong Andrew Netherwood Over the last 25 years, the ozone hole which forming over Antarctica each spring has started to shrink. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Viktoria Kahui, Senior Lecturer in Environmental Economics, University of Otago Getty Images/Amy Toensing Biodiversity is declining at rates unprecedented in human history. This suggests the ways we currently use to manage our natural environment are failing. One emerging concept focuses on ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Timothy Colin Bednall, Associate Professor in Management, Swinburne University of Technology marvent/Shutterstock Finding the best person to fill a position can be tough, from drafting a job ad to producing a shortlist of top interview candidates. Employers typically consider information from ...
Wondering where to host your next BYO? Whether its a small gathering or a massive party, we’ve got some recommendations. I was first introduced to the concept of BYOs at Dunedin’s India Gardens, a legendary but sadly defunct establishment, which purveyed enormous quantities of mango chicken to Aotearoa’s drunkest future ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Cooper, Honorary Lecturer, Department of History and Archaeology, Macquarie University Julien Cooper The hyper-arid desert of Eastern Sudan, the Atbai Desert, seems like an unlikely place to find evidence of ancient cattle herders. But in this dry environment, my new ...
The sector says it’s hopeful her replacement Paul Goldsmith will be able to throw it a lifeline, after six months with a minister deemed missing in action, writes Catherine McGregor in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign ...
The government can't just rely on axing public sector jobs and has to do more to cut spending, says the chief economist at a free market think tank. ...
Rock The Vote NZ, known for its advocacy for minor party unity and its role within the Freedoms NZ Coalition during the 2023 General Election, celebrates this merger as a strategic enhancement of its operational strength and outreach. ...
Nearly everyone has experienced the frustration of something you use breaking and being difficult or expensive to fix. Proposed legislation could change that. It’s been raining on and off all Sunday afternoon but people are lining up outside a building in a corner of Gribblehirst Park in Sandringham, Auckland. In ...
What does a forever relationship look like when you don’t believe in marriage? And how do you celebrate it? This essay is part of our Sunday Essay series, made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.I’m going to do it, right now. I’m going to say ...
The Prime Minister has committed to resuming direct flights to Thailand. But it’s not a promise he will be able to deliver on anytime soon. The post Prime Minister jumps the gun in Thailand appeared first on Newsroom. ...
It’s not that long ago Eliza McCartney was seriously wondering if the Paris Olympics would be her pole vaulting swansong. After years of being hounded by injury after injury, the Rio Olympics bronze medallist was still confident she would compete at her second Olympics in Paris in July, unless something ...
FICTION 1 Take Two by Danielle Hawkins (Allen & Unwin, $36.99) There’s commercial fiction, like this book, and then there’s quality fiction, quality writers, quality literature; the forthcoming Auckland Writers Festival is full of quality, and ReadingRoom has two tickets to give away to the following events: Paul Lynch (Dublin ...
Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[quiz],DIV[quiz],A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question?Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 26 April appeared first on Newsroom. ...
You can’t have missed the Gallipoli story as the movies, documentaries, essays and books capture what it was like for New Zealand troops in their eight-month campaign on the Peninsula. But this Anzac Day the Auckland War Memorial Museum has published a book that sheds light on a little-known aspect of the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra In the free-for-all between the Australian government and Big Tech boss Elon Musk this week, the government had to be on a winner. Most people would have little sympathy with Musk’s vociferous opposition to ...
Asia Pacific Report Chief Mandla Mandela, a member of the National Assembly of South Africa and Nelson Mandela’s grandson, has joined the Freedom Flotilla in istanbul as the ships prepare to sail for Gaza, reports Kia Ora Gaza. Mandela is also the ambassador for the Global Campaign to Return to ...
Pacific Media Watch Journalists who report on environmental issues are encountering growing difficulties in many parts of the world, reports Reporters Without Borders. According to the tally kept by RSF, 200 journalists have been subjected to threats and physical violence, including murder, in the past 10 years because they were ...
Analysis by Dr Bryce Edwards, Democracy Project (https://democracyproject.nz)Political scientist, Dr Bryce Edwards. Prime Minister Christopher Luxon has surprised everyone with his ruthlessness in sacking two of his ministers from their crucial portfolios. Removing ministers for poor performance after only five months in the job just doesn’t normally happen in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Hawkins, Senior Lecturer, Canberra School of Politics, Economics and Society, University of Canberra BagzhanSadvakassov/Upsplash, CC BY-SA Australia’s inflation rate has fallen for the fifth successive quarter, and it’s now less than half of what it was back in late 2022. ...
ACT's Rural Communities and Veterans spokesman Mark Cameron responds to cancellations and protests of ANZAC Day commemorations in Wellington. He says, "These pitiful attempts to detract from ANZAC Day are not at all indicative of the feelings of mainstream ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Meighen McCrae, Associate Professor of Strategic & Defence Studies, Australian National University American and Australian stretcher bearers working together near the front line during the Battle of Hamel in 1918.Australian War Memorial While the AUKUS alliance is new, the Australian-American partnership ...
Pōneke based peace activists staged a silent protest at the ANZAC day service to highlight New Zealand’s complicity in war and genocide, and urge the government to take concrete steps to stop the genocide in Palestine. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Magdalena M.E. Bunbury, Postdoctoral Researcher, James Cook University Burial with a horse at the Rákóczifalva site, Hungary (8th century AD).Sándor Hegedűs, Hungarian National Museum, CC BY How do we understand past societies? For centuries, our main sources of information have been ...
Amanda Thompson doesn’t really do Anzac Day. But what she does do is remember the people she knew who had a lifetime to remember stuff they didn’t really want to, because of a war they didn’t ask for. And she does make Anzac biscuits.First published in 2021.All my ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kathryn Willis, Postdoctoral Researcher, CSIRO Xavier Boulenger/Shutterstock In the two decades to 2019, global plastic production doubled. By 2040, plastic manufacturing and processing could consume as much as 20% of global oil production and use up 15% of the annual carbon ...
With our collective remembrance, and steadfast belief in our common humanity, we strengthen our hope and resolve to do what we can to foster dialogue and understanding, and to heal divisions in our pursuit of peace. ...
Principal reasons for the opposition is the loss of the public’s democratic right to have “a fair say” and the vital need for a government free from corruption, said Casey Cravens of Dunedin, president of the New Zealand Federation of Freshwater ...
Never mind the scoreboard – in the 2000 Bledisloe Cup decider, the real trans-Tasman battle was won before kickoff.First published in 2016. The dawn of the new millennium was a dark time for the All Blacks. Their final game pre-Y2K was a 22-18 loss to South Africa in the ...
I’m on the wrong side of 40, I never pursued creative work and now my job is killing my soul. Help! Want Hera’s help? Email your problem to helpme@thespinoff.co.nzDear Hera,May I start with the least original conversation opener you’re likely to hear around the motu at the moment, particularly in Wellington: ...
“Never again - No AUKUS” was the message of the wreath laid at this morning’s national ANZAC Day commemorative service at Pukeahu National War Memorial Park this morning by the Stop AUKUS group. ...
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“I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!”
Sue Moroney’s dismal, delusional anti-fluoridation rave
Backbenchers, Prime TV, Wednesday 12 June 2013, 10:30 p.m.
Hosts: Wallace Chapman, Damian Christie
Politicians: Sue Moroney (Labour), Simon O’Connor (National), Richard Prosser (New Zealand First)
If you can bear the unedifying spectacle of “wretchedness o’ercharg’d”, then please watch as Labour List lightweight Sue Moroney, in an incredible display of sheer purblind obstinacy, incites the crowd to outraged jeering, and drives the normally unflappable Wallace Chapman to completely lose his rag.
First topic for tonight is the Edward Snowden story…
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Here’s a simple question for you Sue Moroney. If the U.S. whistleblower sought asylum in New Zealand, would you support him?
SUE MORONEY: [face frozen in rictus grin] Ahhhhhhhhhhh. [extended pause] No. I don’t think so. Ask me something that matters.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: [shrugs shoulders, raises eyebrows in disbelief] Okay then. Do you feel sorry for Peter Dunne?
SUE MORONEY: Ohhhhh, look, he’s a minister. There are expectations we have of a minister, and he failed.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Does the spy scandal worry you?
SUE MORONEY: No! Not at all!
For a moment, a stunned and ominous silence fills the Backbenchers Tavern; then the slight titter of derisive laughter, and also a slight percussive sound: the Labour Party supporters gnashing their teeth in mortification. Wallace Chapman licks his lips, shakes his head in disbelief, then he decides to see if he can get someone to talk sense….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: All right, I’ll ask all three of our politicians: Edward Snowden, hero or villain?
RICHARD PROSSER: Ooooh…depends where you stand. One man’s freedom fighter is another man’s terrorist.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Okay. Short and sweet. Sue Moroney?
SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I’d like a lot more information. But I guess he’s a hero.
SIMON O’CONNOR: He’s a young man who made a rash decision. He hasn’t thought it through.
Next topic is FLUORIDATION. Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program. It surely makes sense, therefore, that a parliamentary backbencher from Hamilton should be on Backbenchers tonight. Surely. Unfortunately, as we have already seen by her confused and contradictory statements about the Edward Snowden case, this particular backbencher makes little or no sense at all….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: What do you think of that decision, Sue Moroney?
SUE MORONEY: [significant pause] I stand with Labour. We need a proper government inqu—-
SIMON O’CONNOR: No, no, no, no, no! That’s not good enough, Sue! I ask you to give me an answer and you say nothing that makes sense. This is a bit of a shocker, Sue!
SUE MORONEY: Research and evidence! I act on research and evidence! That’s what I do!
SIMON O’CONNOR: The evidence is beyond doubt. There are SCORES of peer-reviewed studies in academic journals.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: Richard Prosser, what do you think about fluoride in the water supply?
RICHARD PROSSER: I have to say I would be personally against it.
SIMON O’CONNOR: [drily, to Prosser] I’ll send you the articles in Nature and by the government’s Chief Science Advisor Sir Peter Gluckman tomorrow.
Chapman has obviously prepared seriously for this, to the extent of bringing on Doctor JONATHAN BROADBENT, an expert in dental epidemiology from Otago University. Dr Broadbent explains that there is no rational debate about it, and that there has already been a major inquiry on the matter: the major New Zealand study on the effects of fluoridation was completed in 1971. He speaks for a considerable time, and then it’s time to confront the List MP from Hamilton with a cold dose of reality….
WALLACE CHAPMAN: He makes sense, Sue Moroney, you don’t.
SUE MORONEY: Well if you base your decision on forty-year-old science—-
At this point, there is sustained jeering from the audience. Cries of “Shame!” and “Ignorant!” can be heard.
WALLACE CHAPMAN: We know where you stand. You stand with Richard Prosser.
SUE MORONEY: [nonplussed expression on face] Ummmm….We need an inquiry!
More angry, contemptuous hooting and jeering.
SIMON O’CONNOR: Here we are again, Labour asking for another inquiry.
SUE MORONEY: [rictus grin now replaced by angry scowl] Well, FORTY-YEAR-OLD SCIENCE! Do you want to put your faith in forty-year-old science?
Hooting and jeering and derisive laughter continues….
The rest of the show consists of poor, awkward Damian Christie circulating round groups of drinkers, poking a microphone into their midst and trying to get them to answer his extraordinarily inane questions. As usual, this is an excruciatingly painful watch.
Good on Snowden. And what a compliment he has paid to the people of Hong Kong. I am jealous.
On the other hand in an unedifying mirror image of Sue Maroney’s sick comments, a Beijing Communist Party toady calls for Snowden’s deportation:
Yay! Team Edward
Boo! Toady politicians
Maroney. You suck. You are a disgrace to your party.
Fortunately for us. As in New Zealand, in Hong Kong, mainstream politicians are not the only ones who get to have a say. (Marking Hong Kong out as a democratic stand out. And also as a good choice by Snowden as a safe haven.)
Any politician that makes a statement in direct opposition to Edward Snowden’s brave act of conscience, as Maroney has done, does not belong in any political party that claims it stands for democracy.
But not according to “Ask me something that matters” Maroney.
Is Maroney parroting the Labour Party line, here?
Is Maroney speaking for the Labour Party, or for herself?
Why is David Shearer so silent on the spying scandals that have rocked New Zealand and the world?
Can Shearer be trusted to take over John Key’s role as minister for the SIS and GCSB?
When it comes to spying on us: Will an incoming Labour administration under the Shearer gang be a seamless continuation of Business As Usual?
Will a Labour administration repeal the Act that has legalised criminal behavior by the GCSB?
Will law breaking by the SIS the GCSB and the police, continue to be covered up and excused, under a Labour administration as they have been under a National one?
Who are the 88?
Are they really a danger to us?
Will David Shearer as head of the SIS honour OIA requests and release the names of the 88 New Zealanders illegally spied on? So that we, and they, can decide if the illegal intrusion on their privacy was justified?
Will New Zealand be a safe haven for prisoners of conscience under a Labour administration, no matter which country they hale from?
Maybe some Labour Party insiders might like to enlighten us?
That would be Hong Kong, territory of that bastion of free speech and democracy, the People’s Republic of China? Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to. Mind you, given he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does, I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
however, Google does not have powers to incarcerate you in Guantanamo Bay without trial, for no stated reason. That seems to be an important difference.
Why yes, that’s exactly where I’d flee to.
Sycophants and ideologically trustworthy servants of state power are not the ones who ever have to worry about having to flee state vengeance. You are safe, my friend.
…he’s only revealed to the world that, quelle surprise, the NSA does exactly the same data mining as Google does
In view of your extensive form, it’s difficult to call this one, but I think that statement could be just about the stupidest thing you have ever written on this mostly excellent forum.
I’m not sure he’s at all that great a risk.
Yes, the treatment of Julian Assange and Bradley Manning must have given comfort to all those who value liberty, human rights and justice. Oh yes.
100% right Jenny.Under Key NZ is little more than a vassal state of the U$. Why? Since Rogernomics we’ve bought into the Washington Consensus which is neoliberalism and privatisation and a horror of anything which is Socialist, even a simple mixed economy. Defence wise we’re locked in with Australia, the U$’s sheriff in the southern pacific, our subservience to the U$ is shown by having soldiers in Afghanistan. The greatest figure of South American politics the anti neoliberal Hugo Chavez, Key did not attend his funeral though he visited ex Pinochet Chile. To give asylum to Snowden would be a direct slap in the face to the U$ military hegemony, and our defence agreements with them, no politician in Labour or National would do that.
Without U$ military might in the Pacific there would be a huge power vacuum almost certainly filled by China. The Japanese would almost certainly have to develop nuclear weapons against North Korea and China as a deterrent.
That said we should still give Snowden asylum showing we’re not total toady bastards to U$ military and security dominance
I don’t think you need worry. The US is greatly expanding its presence in the Pacific and nothing we do will change that. Having said that we also want to keep both China and the US on side, while ensuring we do what is best for NZ.
That’s statecraft.
And the best way to do that is to declare our total neutrality – and then build up enough force to prevent an invasion.
There are many styles and kinds of invasion.
True. The ones we’re experiencing ATM are financial but I was speaking of direct invasion. To stop the financial invasion we’d also have to declare neutrality and then drop the Washington Consensus.
You Sir are a comedian par excellence. Monty Python eat your hat.
If you have a point, please feel free to share.
“Snowden Supporters Rally in Hong Kong
‘Arrest Obama, free Snowden’ protesters chant ”
http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2013/06/15-1
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.
Article 12 Universal Declaration of Human Rights
How about our own government spying on New Zealanders?
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’, i should imagine even tho it doesn’t seem a topic to fire the imagination that there would have been ‘opposition’ to the mass uptake of fluoridation in the 70’s,
i have no strong view either way but would suggest that in the ‘stuffed shirt’ days of the 70’s the prevailing view of ‘science’ would have and has lead to a really nice little earner for chemical companies over many generations,
i havn’t heard of farming communities suffering any worse dental outcomes than ‘towny’ communities do they stuff their water tanks with fluoride…
Shit if 40 year old science is a problem what about those idiots that decided the earth was round, or that gravity caused things to fall.
That science is really old!
Point well made D Of Sssmith
DoS does ignore one factor. While the fact that the Earth is round hasn’t changed in 40 years, our understanding of medicine, biochemistry, physiology and human health has radically changed.
The harms caused by something like smoking or by pestcides like 245T for example…we know things now about detailed mechanisms that they barely suspected back then.
EDIT I see Bad12 beat me to it…
I wasn’t really ignoring it I as simply saying that the age of the science was irrelevant as to whether we trusted it.
New scientific discoveries may or may not change what we know.
We shouldn’t discount any science on the basis of age. That isn’t how science works.
You’re reading too much into what I intended.
Or indeed, the hundred year old science of heavier than air flight.
What nonsensical rationalisations these are. And from an Labour MP who by refusing to support safe haven for Edward Snowden, is supporting the crude and cruel hounding of this brave individual who courageously and at great personal cost has exposed to the public view, a level of intrusive state surveilence into US and other countries citizens engaged in by the US government that would make the East German Stasi blush.
What Chapman could have asked her was; Do you have any brains? To which this tory could have given the same answer.
With these sort of statements Sue Maroney shows she properly belongs in the National Party caucus, or the even more whacky ACT caucus. (If there ever was such a thing again).
This is the sort of smug dismissal I would normally expect to come from John Key. And not a Labour Party MP. How on earth did Sue Maroney get on the Labour list?
Jenny, your complaint about Moroney is based on what Moz claims she said. You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
Moroney, and Labour, want an independent enquiry to see whether fluoride is needed or not. That seems sensible given that the opposition to it seems to be reduced to ‘but, nazis!’
You need to take into account that previous experience of his ‘transcipts’ suggests that there is a huge gap between what is said and what Moz claims was said.
You have already been exposed several times for your pettifogging and quibbling, but I see you are back at it. Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim as it would be if I had laboriously transcribed from a tape recording. But I got the key parts of that horrifyingly substandard performance absolutely right, and you know it.
I did not make up any of it—even in my most extravagantly satirical mood, I could not imagine anything as stupid and irresponsible as Sue Moroney came out with on Wednesday night.
“Since this was a hastily scribbled freehand/shorthand transcript, it’s not absolutely verbatim …”
Thank you for confirming my point. Again.
“Thousands Of Companies Have Been Handing Over Your Personal Data To The NSA”
http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/thousands-of-companies-have-been-handing-over-your-personal-data-to-the-nsa
Good on Snowden!
Point not so well made is my view, you are comparing the ‘science of nature’ with the ‘chemical science of man’,
The two are as different as chalk and cheese, the Earth is spherical because it is!!! that’s hardly based upon science and it was hardly science that someone at some point gained the means to sail out past the horizon and discover that it ain’t flat,
Ugly Truth in comment 2 links to some large scientific studies that debunk the fluoride myth…
On the contrary, what changes in population health & chemical science is the degree of accuracy, not the facts.
Hence the research about going for 0.7ppm rather than 0.75, as opposed to the range 40 years ag which was say 0.6-1.2ppm.
But the clear benefits of fluoridation were evident 60 years ago, no matter what UT thinks. His link in comment two was incorrect at point one and went downhill from there.
For example: “According to the NIDR’s statisticians, the study found an average difference of only 0.6 DMFS (Decayed Missing and Filled Surfaces) in the permanent teeth of children aged 5-17 residing in either fluoridated or unfluoridated areas (Brunelle and Carlos, 1990). This difference is less than one tooth surface! There are 128 tooth surfaces in a child’s mouth.“. Let’s say 200,000 children: that’s 120,000 teeth that require additional treatment such as fillings, capping or extraction before the age of 17 (not to mention the next 60 years).
Farming families are generally issued fluoride tabs, we were. Also did not have much access to soft drink and lollies :-), made up for it when we left home.
Moroney tho has a point, how reliable is 40 year old ‘science’…
Nonsense. Moroney had no point to make, because she has never read anything about it, nor thought about it.
Whatever LEC in Hell selected her should should have all of its members struck off immediately.
Nor had i until i got onto the link in comment 2, which shows that there is a fairly large amount of study by reputable scientists which paint the depositing of fluoride into the water system in a not very favorable light,
i may be wrong but i see Sue Moroney as part of the well meaning middle class who may not have too many clues but are (slightly) left leaning,
The Labour Party is chocka with such people it’s why they can come up with such a grand idea as shoe-horning the children of the middle class onto the ‘property ownership ladder’ whilst remaining eerily SILENT on the economic fate of the Mene Mene’s of this world…
As a Labour man, some of these Labour MPs do make me cringe; guess that is why Nash declined a certain cup of tea. (high-lobe Cam).
I agree RT – I frequently find myself asking (myself): Who the fuck ARE these people?, and how the hell did this happen?
I know the answer, but I also wonder WHY we keep empowering them.
The Labour Party’s worst enemy (enema even) has always been apathy. But the buggers just KEEP subscribing to the doctor’s prescription – even when it’s giving them the runs.
Who the hell is advising them (I’ll send the boys around – half of them a mates of Mallard anyway)?
An hour or so on, and after a sesh with the proctologist, I’m more the wiser and in no need now of a dainty little dinner party anyway.
The difference between National and Labour is that Nat members strut around asking anyone that will listen “Don’t you know who I am?”, whilst members of Labour ask themselves and anyone that will listen – “who the fuck are “WE”?’
Well I’ve just struck her off my dinner party list! Or maybe not. I’ll discuss my proctologist with her, instead of my psychiatrist – I’m sure she’ll be able to give me some deep and meaningful advice. She’ll probably advise I need a second (perhaps even 3rd) opinion.
“Rational people are still reeling at the almost unbelievable news this week that the Hamilton City Council has been bullied by a small cabal of fanatics into abandoning its water fluoridation program”
Don’t beat around the bush, Morrisey. Tell us what you really think.
50 Reasons to Oppose Fluoridation
Dr. Paul Connett, Professor of Chemistry, St. Lawrence University
http://www.slweb.org/50reasons.html
Makes a change from hamilton council doing the bullying.
@ Ugly
Having you oppose fluoridation seems one of the best reasons to support it (I guess those strip-club girls don’t care too much about the state of your teeth if you’re bulging at the wallet area).
However, I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply. I doubt there would be that many (a similar, or lesser, proportion than those who signed Hamilton’s failed referendum against it). Plus it could be used as an emergency back-up for the scientifically literate if there was a disruption to the normal water works.
Read the link at (2), there’s plenty of science that does not support fluoridation…
Crap. A handful of obsessive rebels without a cause and chickenship councilors in election year have condemned thousands of high-deprivation children to the misery of excrutiatingly bad oral health and the downstream effects that will last all their lives. And if those same heroes get crook tomorrow, they’ll accept – in fact demand – without the tiniest murmur, every other advance of modern medical science. Selfish, hypocritical, cretins.
+1
+1
regular brushing, morning and night, plenty of ‘sterilization’ over the years, and fluoridated water; only one extraction at 45. (though a few ‘knocked about’; wrong place, wrong time).
😎
Lolz, i have got a face full of those wrong place wrong time ones…
LOLZ, obviously didn’t bother to read the ‘science’ contained in comment 2, suppose the ‘scientists’ involved in such studies,(some of them of multi-year duration) are all selfish, hypocritical cretins as well,
It would seem that the consensus of opposition to fluoride in water is that fluoride when applied orally via a toothpaste has some positive effect while adding such to drinking water is dubious at best and if a high enough dose of the stuff is continually added to drinking water there are negative effects becoming apparent…
bad12 if you remember that this debate is now not one of science and rational discourse, it is one of belief systems and world views, it will make more sense. Part of a civic religion in other words.
That’s why you are seeing the emotional polemics, condemning our children to hell, I mean, in the form of a lifetime of decaying rotten teeth. You are messing with the transmitted orthodoxy.
It appears that one’s worship of Uncle Sam is a must in the fluoride ‘debate’, it appears that ALL of non-English speaking Europe has now ceased to apply fluoride to water supplies,
This is obviously a plot by non-English speaking dentists from all over Europe who can see mountains of money to be made from all them kids with bad teeth…
Not Quite.
And then there’s the issue of salt or milk fluoridation as alternative avenues.
Good ideas those, allowing people to choose to use fluoridated salt or milk.
Possibly not as effective for poor people or maybe those who aren’t intimately aware of their micro-nutrient needs, though. Look at the price of higher-calcium milk, for example.
@ak
“Crap”
No, it is actual scientific fact. Here’s the first one from the list:
Fluoride is not an essential nutrient. No disease has ever been linked to a fluoride deficiency. Humans can have perfectly good teeth without fluoride.
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
“But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.”
I’d agree with the second* but would like to see a citation for the first. Modern fluoridation of water happens in places where humans generally eat diets that harm oral health. Are you suggesting that humans that don’t eat like that are better off with fluoridated water too? I haven’t looked to see what the research is saying on this but am curious if you have.
* to an extent. We know that some people don’t keep their teeth for life, or have poor oral health, even when they drink fluoridated water all that time.
Nope.
All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.
Large numbers of advanced western countries have decided that fluoridation doesn’t justify mandatory use, and several have even withdrawn it from their populations after having had it for many years.
I’m not aware of any evidence which shows that children’s teeth in those countries are significantly worse off after the withdrawal of water fluoridation.
Do a lit search on Ovid over the weekend, did you?
Sorry, but “Colonial Viper isn’t aware of it” isn’t much in the way of “evidence”.
How about “McFlock isn’t aware of any such evidence either”
Better? 🙂
True, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
Whereas evidence of benefit is actual evidence.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
yeah pretty sure it is
but as the Israeli Minister of Health says…why are you fluoridating all this water when only 2% of it will be drunk
because 2% of it will be drunk.
There’s no evidence of harm from having withdrawn fluoridation. That’s pretty simple.
McFlock …
16 June 2013 at 10:30 pm
…that you know of. To argue “I don’t know, therefore it’s safe” really is pretty simple.
Maybe you should do some research to find the cohort studies from that time and confirm your hypothesis, because there sure is evidence that fluoridation is associated with lowered DMFT rates.
McFlock, what key words would you use for a search? I did a quick google and found the following, but not much otherwise.
The best available evidence from studies following withdrawal of water fluoridation indicates that caries prevalence increases, approaching the level of the low fluoride group. Again, however, the studies were of moderate quality (level B), and limited quantity. The estimates of effect could be biased due to poor adjustment for the effects of potential confounding factors.
http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/fluoride/documents/crdreport18.pdf
(sept 2000)
LOL
Note: it appears from a quick read that fluoride also changes the behaviour of bone cells through various poorly understood signalling mechanisms. I wonder what other cell signalling mechanisms it affects.
@Weka – not really my field, but Scandinavia has a pretty good history of epi research so I’d be surprised if they didn’t do something. Beyond the obvious (“fluoride”, etc) I’m not sure where to start.
I find that keyword searches can still overload one with results that are frequently only tangentially related to the actual area of interest – try title word searches as well if keywords bring up nothing useful.
@CV
OMG, you’ve discovered that a chemical might have detectable effects! At what doses? Links?
“All I’m saying is that even ugly’s link said that fluoridated water was associated with lower DMFTs. I wasn’t speculating on anything more than that. Our teeth would no doubt be better if high-fructose corn syrup didn’t exist, but it does.”
Fair enough. Let me rephrase your earlier comment then,
from –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth without fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
to –
But humans are more likely to have shit teeth if their oral health is destroyed in other ways and they don’t have fluoride. So for some people, it is essential if they want their own teeth for the rest of their lives.
Myself, I would also add –
And addressing the reasons why good oral health is not promoted in NZ
at a preventative level is something we should be doing, including looking at meta issues of poverty, education, and whether mass medication is an ambulance at the bottom of the cliff
“Mass medication” like iodised salt in bread and fluoride in water is prevention, not an ambulance. Even in the most equitable and civilised society, I would expect some initiatives along those lines. Because on the flipside of “personal choice” is “information overload” and “some people will have no freaking idea either way”.
Although I agree with the rest of your addendum.
A society that says we won’t ban soft drinks etc in schools or lollies at supermarket check outs, cannot then claim that regulating water fluoridation is prevention. It’s medication instead of prevention. True prevention is making sure that everyone can afford to eat well and has access to healthy foods, and is making sure that knowing how to eat well has the same value as reading and writing. Prevention also doesn’t see tooth decay as separate from diabetes or heart disease.
We are so far away from a prevention model we don’t even recognise what prevention is.
Well said.
It’s still too often fighting fire with fire.
@ Weka,
behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.
Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.
“behind that logic is the assumption that if everyone did everything perfectly correctly, there would be no tooth decay. My internal cynic finds this difficult to believe.”
It’s not the logic behind my thinking. What I think is that if we promoted and practiced true prevention, then the rates of tooth decay would be much lower, and the fluoridation debate would look very different.
“Not to mention the fact that “education” does not equal or determine “will”.”
Sure. So we can educate (and legislate) about smoking and lots of people will quit, but some won’t. Of course we can’t really know what is going on there until we deal with poverty and the stresses of modern life too (both powerful influences on health).
But let’s say in some mythical world, we did actual health promotion in a meaningful way, poverty was drastically reduced, and people had genuine choices around how to live their lives. Some people still choose to eat lots of sugar and most of them get holes in their teeth. What percentage of the population would that need to be to warrant fluoridation of the water supply?
I suspect that this is where you and I differ most. I don’t believe that all people should be medicated to target only a proportion of the population. If we were talking about diabetes say, and we could put a new magic diabetes drug (one that maintains stability rather than cures) in the water, would that be ok? What would be the determining factors? (cost, side effects, risks etc).
I suppose what I am saying is that I believe it is a fundamental right that people get to choose what they put in their bodies. I’m fortunate in that it’s relatively easy for me to avoid fluoridated water (I drink bore or rain water to avoid chlorination).
I would say that inclusion of a substance in the water supply (or staples like milk or bread) is the best course of action if it has a demonstrable benefit for some, does not cause demonstrable harm to others at the supplied levels, does not affect the appearance and quality of the product, and is more effective/efficient at reaching people in need than other intervention strategies.
So no, if a substance that didn’t adversely affect people was included in the water supply to help other people keep their feet, I would not be opposed to it.
Frankly I don’t get the big deal – being around a car or logburner is much more hazardous than fluoridated water.
Yes, it’s a balancing of rights to a certain degree (although, as you show, those worked up enough about flouridation would also have other issues with the municipal water supply). Excuse me for getting terse, but in the cases of folate in bread and water fluoridation, it’s the right to pretend to be able to control micronutrient intake (have you tested your bore for fluoride or other non-H2O substances? Down to less than one part per million?) against the right of other people to live healthier lives.
Yeah.. that’s probably because the fluoride occurs naturally in the water and has done since time immemorial. There are places in Europe and elsewhere where this is the case. But not in NZ.
It looks to me like less than 5% of people have access to naturally occurring fluoride in water.
In the UK for instance wikipedia says 0.5M people receive naturally fluoridated water.
Oops, its the emotionally charged, we know which science is the righteous science, brigade, out in full force!
Think about the children, they cry, while dismissing the opportunity to discuss potential harm caused by the mass medicating!
Brilliant attitude!
Can’t cope with the facts, eh Pasupial? Have some more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=GX0s-4AyWfI
@ Ugly
The facts I can cope with fine. It’s pusillanimous hysteria and delusion that I have a problem with…
@Bad12
That’s not science – that’s a manipulative list from someone that regards pseudosciences such as; naturopathy, and chiropracty, as valid. I have no time for Paul Conman – link to someone with scientific credibility please. Here’s a link for you in the meantime:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2010/12/02/anti-fluoridation-crankery-how-1960s/
Let me know when you can comprehend the the difference, Pasupial.
Fluoride is a poison. It is a roughly as toxic as lead or arsenic, and it accumulates in the body. Fluorosis causes bone hardening, which makes osteoporosis more hazardous, and fluorine can cause loss of IQ and docility.
Fluoride was find used by the Nazis to keep prisoners docile and manageable, Later it was introduced into US water supplies under the watch of Andrew Mellon, a Nazi supporter and eugenicist.
So what? Fluoride in water is not at poisonous levels and your repeated Godwins make no difference to the argument.
His point is that the amounts of fluoride added to the water supply while not toxic in themselves have the ability to build up in the body bonding with other metallic elements as the body has not the means to expel an over-supply of fluorides…
I’d like a link about fluoride compounds accumulating in the body tissues or joints manner of heavy metals, rather than simply being consumed at higher levels than they can be excreted.
It’s a claim UT has made repeatedly without providing any evidence, and I suspect has similar provenance to their Jacques Cousteau “quote”, which turned out to be bunk.
Godwin’s law no longer applies.
did thecourt of the hundred say so?
No, reason said so, McFuckwit.
Well, you said it so it must be true
Hey UT, I’m sure you’re also against dihydrogen monoxide?
Here are some facts about it:
* Death due to accidental inhalation of DHMO, even in small quantities.
* Prolonged exposure to solid DHMO causes severe tissue damage.
* Excessive ingestion produces a number of unpleasant though not typically life-threatening side-effects.
* DHMO is a major component of acid rain.
* Gaseous DHMO can cause severe burns.
* Contributes to soil erosion.
* Leads to corrosion and oxidation of many metals.
There are many more problems with it, too, but that’s just a short list to give you a taste.
Would you be surprised to learn that DHMO is found in all public drinking water, at concentrations that can lead to all of the above problems? The Nazis also made extensive use of DHMO in their concentration camps. Surely we should ban it too?
Excessive amounts of DHMO have stopped me mowing the lawns this morning. Totally buggered my golf plans for this arvo too. Ban it now!
lovely fiddling on the roof though.
Also produced devastating explosions under appropriate conditions.
Oxygen by itself is nasty corrosive stuff.
Carcinogenic
The hydrogen bit is explosive. Remember the Hindenburg.
Ahhh that’s a whole interesting debate there in itself 🙂
and then there’s the weed.
Lanthanide, A fish in DHMO will die from oxygen deprivation.
There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.
“There are no shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between DHMO and water.”
Nor a shortage of morons who do not comprehend the difference between what the nazis did as experiments and torture, vs what health professionals do under informed science for the betterment of public health.
You have missed the point entirely, Lanthanide.
The Nazis didn’t give fluoride to prisoners as an experiment or as a form of torture, and health professionals were never originally informed of the actual science, they were simply fed the Carnegie-Mellon propaganda.
“In Australia, the Dental Health & Research Foundation, which has such names as Colgate, Kellogg and other ex-Farben associates listed among it’s ‘governors and contributors’, has been irreverently but accurately dubbed “the Fluoride Mafia”. Closely allied with this Sydney University ‘Foundation’, in its printed promotional claims for fluorides and fluoridation, is ‘Foundation 41’. Unfortunately, the data of the “thorough investigations” said to have been carried out by the Foundation into fluoride, its benefits and its hazards, have never been made available, despite numerous appeals. A recent ABC Science Show’s examination of the scientific integrity of Foundation 41 may explain the elusive data. America is literally bursting at the seams with such Foundations, but amongst the earlier names were the Rockefeller Foundation, the Carnegie Foundation and the Ford Foundation. It is necessary to mention these specifically because they were the first Foundations to make grants in the population (control) field and the Carnegie family merged with the Mellon family Institute to create the Carnegie-Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1967.”
http://www.fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/870000_perkins.htm
@ Ugly
If only your passion for this nonsense could be turned to some cause more productive than endangering the health of Aotearoan communities.
At 2.2 I say that: “I think it would be fair if councils were to provide a tank of rain water for those who want to avoid the fluoridated town supply.” I was going to further suggest that this might also be an advantage for attracting European tourists, but am now starting to think that might be a very bad idea.
If the anti-fluoridation mob were to be given power over a large vat of water in every town; how long would it before they started drowning witches?
Bill Ralston on The Nation. The Nation is providing an ignorant and mildly intelligent man a way bigger pedestal for his opinions than he deserves.
Russel Norman…should be our next Prime Minister, excellent!
Thankful that I passed on The Nation; Bill Ralston, sigh.
fell back to sleep watching Q&A, susan wood makes me almost want paul holmes back…i wonder what selection criteria TVNZ use to get Q&A hosts?
and Fran O Sullivan’s grin is really scarey….what the hell is she grinning about.
This story intrigued me because the principal says
What has happened around communication at that school – I can’t understand why any issues couldn’t be raised with the principal instead of going to the union.
and he said
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890829
A karakia by definition is spiritual and that is the point of it – sure it is in Te reo Māori and is good practice for pronunciation but to take away the cultural context is not correct imo.
This is recited where I work part time and doesn’t compromise to my godlessness.
Whakataka te hau ki te uru,
Whakataka te hau ki te tonga.
Kia mākinakina ki uta,
Kia mātaratara ki tai.
E hī ake ana te atākura he tio,
he huka, he hauhunga.
Haumi e! Hui e! Tāiki e!
http://folksong.org.nz/whakataka_te_hau/
I love that karakia Joe – thanks for reminding me.
NZ children need an introduction to a spiritual practice. And a karakia seems perfect for the job.
I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.
If there’s actual education/discussion around why they do the karakia, awesome. But the original article doesn’t tell us that.
yep. agree.
Just so we can keep some balance in this, the Abrahamic faiths/culture are the culture of Tauiwi are they not and adopted by the Pacific cultures.
Well, so is the alphabet. But it has been widely adopted and accepted by all. What was the exact point you were making?
So the NZEI is going to encourage that the activity is given some educational context? Well, that would be fine. If that’s what they are intending.
“I disagree – there’s no evidence any context is being given. When you tell kids “now we’re standing for the karakia/Lord’s Prayer/Pledge of Allegiance” they’re not being asked to think about or understand anything, just recite the words which the authority figure at the front of class is telling them to recite.”
I would expect an intermediate school in Auckland to have the cultural context spread throughout the curriculum and day to day goings on of the school (as it should be).
The other schools quoted in the article appear to have developed use of karakia as part of cultural practice within the school over time.
More basically, there is a place for traditions and rituals in our society. Might as well pick good ones for the young ones.
Beautiful karakia, I hadn’t seen that before. The explanation in the link is really good – showing not just the translation and structure of karakia, but the cultural differences, and how karakia is about taking us into relationship with the world (which is actually how some Christians and other religions use prayer, for anyone thinking it’s just about having an imaginary friend).
“Almighty God, humbly acknowledging our need for Thy guidance in all things, and laying aside all private and personal interests, we beseech Thee to grant that we may conduct the affairs of this House and of our country to the glory of Thy holy name, the maintenance of true religion and justice, the honour of the Queen, and the public welfare, peace, and tranquillity of New Zealand, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Amen.”
This is recited where some people work, too, and it hasn’t compromised with their ‘godlessness’ either.
Interestingly, it was hearing that prayer, and the farce that follows it often, that sparked my interest in watching Parliament live. Major Frank Burns.
Communication Breakdown, all round.
One of the many unsung roles of union reps – a worker has a concern and (for whatever reason) doesn’t feel comfortable approaching the employer about it themselves. Sorting out issues in the workplace so bad feelings don’t fester and harm the organisation.
Did simon bridges get a nice new 32ml cancer unit for Tauranga for being a good boy?Funny to see paula bennett holding the high moral ground about private info being sent a person who is supposedly blackmailing her Dept in a bid to have her child returned to her, when she herself blackmailed two beneficiaries, who challenged her policies, by threatening publication of their private and personal details. Which she in fact did. Deeply hypocritical.
Cancer, heart disease, diabetes and aged-care is where the money is being thrown.
Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes
Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, and cancer is no great respecter of ethnicity – methinks you have scored an own goal.
Ethnicity? Where did I make any assumption on the ethnicity of the comfortable middle classes?
Seems like a racist own goal there yourself, Pop.
Looking at the available poverty and health statistics, I see nothing racist in my assumptions.
“Which is peculiar as heart disease and diabetes are the big health problems affecting Maori and Pacific Islanders, “
Given that diabetes and heart disease are huge health problems world-wide, don’t you think there might be something other than ethnicity in play?
“Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.
I reckon spending money to to prevent as much heart disease and Type-2 diabetes as possible – to enable people to work, and care for themselves, to reduce sickness and invalid benefits and reduce the need for expensive heart surgeries, dialysis for kidney failure and amputations due to poor circulation might be a good public health spend for taxpayers of whatever age or class.
that is revealing about the incidence among the young rosy. You may not have used the term ‘public health’ correctly; this funding is likely to be directed to secondary and tertiary interventions.
Sorry, I wasn’t clear enough – I meant the Public Health spend to prevent heart disease and Type-2 diabetes. These may later require secondary and tertiary interventions once the disease are established.
““Gotta look after the middle aged middle classes”
Heart disease and Type-2 diabetes are also serious problems for low socio-economic Gen-Xers.”
Yes, but I suspect that CV’s point was that the money follows middle class, middle aged concerns. In this case, the fact that the low socio-economic classes benefit is a side effect.
/cynicism.
Indeed. The most consistent voters are those who are 40+.
Yeah, I got the idea and would have let it go if it was about hip replacements and the like.
The Sensible Sentencing Trust is not, and never was, a charity
Sunday with Chris Laidlaw, Radio NZ National, Sunday 16 June 2013
Main topic for discussion today is the deregistration of charities. First up, an interesting interview with the former director of CORSO, a real charity which was effectively destroyed by John Key’s hero Robert Muldoon in the late 1970s. Then, like night follows day, just as I predicted to my “companion”, this was followed by a respectful interview with….yes, you guessed it!…the utterly despicable Garth “The Knife” McVicar, Imperial Grand Dragon of the knife-killing advocates, the S.S. Trust.
Appalled I flicked off the following email….
Dear Chris,
Jeremy Rose interviewed the S.S. Trust’s Garth McVicar as if he and his organization were a benevolent organization trying to do good work. In fact, the S.S. Trust is the very opposite of benevolent. When a teenage boy was chased down on a Manurewa street and stabbed to death in 2008, McVicar and his organization led a public campaign of defamation of the dead boy and heaped abuse and scorn on his parents and his wider family.
To compound this, he championed the man who had killed the boy as an “upstanding New Zealander.” Far from moderating these extreme views, McVicar amplified them in his book, entitled with brazen cynicism Justice: Speaking up for Crime’s Silent Victims.
McVicar continually portrays himself as a victim of official discrimination, as well as a victims’ rights advocate. He is neither. And his organization is not, and never was, a charity unless that word has been drained of meaning.
Yours in disgust at the continual publicity afforded the S.S. Trust,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
————————————————-
Hopefully Chris Laidlaw will read it out. He did read out THIS one that I sent him exactly two months ago….
Garth McVicar should be declared persona non grata; why is he still being treated with deference?
Dear Chris,
In the lead item on this morning’s Mediawatch, Colin Peacock spoke of Garth McVicar’s Sensible Sentencing Trust as if it were a victims’ advocacy organization.
The facts are somewhat different.
In 2008, after a teenage boy was chased down and stabbed to death on the street in Manurewa, Garth McVicar was loud in his condemnation—of the dead boy. McVicar spoke sympathetically and supportively about the killer, and he went on to lead an extraordinarily brutal media campaign of character assassination of the victim and his family.
In his recent authorized biography, McVicar reiterated his support for the killer.
I am disturbed that Mediawatch, and indeed Radio New Zealand National, still treats this vicious and cruel person with respect.
Yours sincerely,
Morrissey Breen
Northcote Point
2007: which leading American politician spoke out most strongly against spying on ordinary US citizens?
Here is the quote:
“This Administration also puts forward a false choice between the liberties we cherish and the security we demand. I will provide our intelligence and law enforcement agencies with the tools they need to track and take out the terrorists without undermining our Constitution and our freedom.
That means no more illegal wiretapping of American citizens. No more national security letters to spy on citizens who are not suspected of a crime. No more tracking citizens who do nothing more than protest a misguided war. No more ignoring the law when it is inconvenient.”
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-06-15/who-said-it-administation-acts-violating-civil-liberties-way-enhance-our-security
His earlier positions, even as President, have been re-played on the television news.
That McCain sure is a Warhawk; interesting that the USS Forrestal fire was in ’67.
Ahhh I didn’t know about that accident
Ahhh I didn’t know about that accident
Rumours of Snowden’s exaggeration have been exaggerated:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13578_3-57589495-38/nsa-admits-listening-to-u.s-phone-calls-without-warrants/
And many of those “low ranking analysts” are not even govt employees, they are private sector consultants like Snowden.
Basically the whole issue has moved beyond that of simple spin; when it comes to matters this important the authorities feel that they have to lie, for our own good.
The only thing that surprises me is that a US politician would be so niave, and has clearly not read the Patriot Act and considered its implications.
The author of the Patriot Act, Rep Sensenbrenner, regards how his Act is being used today as an outright abuse of the law, and says that the Act was designed to prevent exactly this kind of “dragnet” surveillance. He is actively campaigning in the House on this.
Interesting Pop. What part of the Patriot Act are you talking about?
I ask because it’s a really long Act, I’m surprised you’ve read it to be honest. The relevant Act here would appear to be FISA though:
That’s how they grab everything (yet to be tested in any court AFAIA), it isn’t deemed collected until someone looks at the data, (another ‘interpretation’ of an Act that is yet to be tested in the courts). From there (having it on file) analysts seem to be have been given authority to look at what’s been grabbed without a warrant under FISA, or anything else. So where in the Patriot Act is this made legal, seeing it would appear to be in breach of the 4th amendment? Please enlighten me.
I’ll give a a hint, start at section 200, look for language that authorises warrantless looking at intercepted comms.
Pay close attention to 204. Hint: FISA or GTFO
Here’s a hint, look at Title II of the Patriot Act, specifically Sections 303, 206, 209, 212, 213, 214, 218, and 220, and think like a cunning lawyer
Come on Pop.
Spill. You’ve got some theory that you reckon shuld be obvious to everyone, and yet no one is citing it as justification. Head of NSA has denied over the years that they are doing what you claim is justified by the Act.
I’m interested in what you think, care to share it?
Particularly, I’m interested in where you think these sections create a gap in which you can get out from under FISA. I’m not seeing it.
This is the best mainstream in depth report I’ve seen so far, oddly no one seems to have picked up on your theory Pop, whatever it is. This report details Bush era legal types threatening to resign over metadata gathering, far less than what you allege people would have to be naive to think isn’t going on.
Perhaps you should get in touch with someone.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-surveillance-architecture-includes-collection-of-revealing-internet-phone-metadata/2013/06/15/e9bf004a-d511-11e2-b05f-3ea3f0e7bb5a_story.html
Here’s a good example of a typical horror story of Privatisation in the U$K.
Thames Water had been set up with the taxpayer’s commonwealth but under the neoliberal madness of Thatcher and the profit mad greedies following it’s been prvatised. On a turnover of over a billion pounds they made a profit of half a billion which they don’t pay tax on as they’re registered in the Carribean somewhere ! 🙁 ! people are complaining about water being too expensive and they’re getting sewage contaminated water.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSrhx_1Kt0c
Her Royal Highness, Patti Smith
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE2qTPWG_Lo
The UK is toast in my opinion. Labour and the Conservatives are basically the same and seem to be equally dedicated in razing the UK to the ground, in the name of neo liberalism. Sadly things won’t improve in the UK, eventually the UK will have the same inequality and poverty as places like India.
KC
100% right! It’s shocking!
From Istanbul.
http://gezipark.nadir.org/index_eng.html
joe90
The young people of Turkey are rejecting the corporate fascism islam tainted of neoliberalism and market tyranny. Profit and money more important than people.
#1MilyonBugunTaksime. (1MillionToTaksimToday)
edit:
https://translate.google.com/
– chemicals in the water cannons
https://twitter.com/Donboloski/status/346225299664564224/photo/1
https://twitter.com/berkysnmz/status/346226097635090432/photo/1
https://twitter.com/Besiktasliyizzz/status/344376793073070081/photo/1
– buses to transport AKP supporters to rally?
https://twitter.com/ozanaktas_sbf/status/346225840654262272/photo/1
Nice.
https://twitter.com/Hurriyet/status/346233312760696832/photo/1
http://www.jenixbibergazi.com/en/subpro.asp?id=7
Photo stream of the protests in Turkey.
http://lexicalgap.com.au/occupygezi/
New Zealand not pedalling those trade rick-shaws fast enough
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890893
not enough Mandarins in the salad.
Baby-Boomers loading the Gen Y up with debt
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=10890779
Love Bites.
Blogging Handbrakes
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890802
oooh, Dr. Naughty
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890813
“the insidious creep of inefficiency” doing the rounds.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890800
in NZ Hospitals.
The ol’ Elder Abuse; reports tip of the ice-berg.
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10890751
better the Devil you know.
Good response from Marama and The Greens to the latest from labour
http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2013/06/16/xenophobia-has-no-place-in-ikaroa-rawhiti/
I hope this pathetic attempt to terrorise is treated with the contempt it deserves by voters.
What never seems to be addressed is what happens if, and likely, when Maori cease to even be the largest minority in Aotearoa
You mean when most NZers are Polynesian (Maori and PI)? That’s going to happen within a few generations.
Pacific Islanders are not tangata whenua and I find your lumping them together to be odd
Tangata whenua will continue to fight for their right to equality as guaranteed in the Treaty and as the indigenous people of these islands, and those opposed will continue to oppose it. That is what has, is, and will, continue to happen until equality is achieved imo.
I’m not greatly in favour of increasing general immigration to NZ, so was pleased to see this from Davidson
“Rather than banning all migrant workers, the Green Party would support a review of the special permit process that seasonal workers come in on to fill so-called labour shortages”
Kim Hill interviewing Sibel Edmonds:
http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/saturday/audio/2558757/sibel-edmonds-whistle-blowing
Solid interview by Kim Hill, but it mainly covers Edmonds’ background with the FBI, not her more recent work on Gladio-B and the Syria angle. Some nuggets were Edmonds’ accounts of the FBI’s lack of accountability, rewarding of unlawful behaviour and post 9/11 contact with Ayman al-Zawahiri. Also good info on the US states secrets privilege, the US mainstream press withholding damaging material, and data collected by security agencies being held for blackmail purposes.
Looks like Kim Hill doesn’t know what due process is either.
The worst wild-fire in Colorado history
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10890898
it’s a Cisco Inferno, The Cisco Kid was a friend of mine,
He drink whiskey, Poncho drink the wine
They rode the sunset, horse was made of steel
The outlaws had us pinned down at the fort
Cisco came in blastin’ drinkin’ port.
The largest ever flood on the Danube
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/europe/news/article.cfm?l_id=7&objectid=10889241
cost of flooding to Germany alone, 11B Euros, 55,000 people may need to be evacuated.
Down the Carpathian drain
Hi Rogue Trooper
Climate Change. We’re no longer in the relatively stable climate since the last ice age ended but are in a new climate of an open ended warming world in despite of which some places are getting colder i.e. UK. Arctic Ice cap retreat is causing that.
Note torrential rain in the Nelson area one woman killed by a slip,we’re getting it too.
Yes.
from te Newz;
Devoy smacks Peters’ race-card hand; “stigmatizing a population for his own benefit”.(even Fran concurs 🙂 ).
Morsi under pressure from hardline Sunni clerics to go to war with Syria.
http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Morsi-cuts-Egypts-Syria-ties-backs-no-fly-zone-316665
Despite best efforts (things that do not work) Child Abuse in New Zealand has risen by nearly a third in the last five years; 21 000 new cases last year, 4000 in state care, of which 21 children were subjected to further abuse by carers
“Horrific, we should be ashamed…a lot of policy written, yet a gap between policy and practice in this country”. – Judge Carolyn Henwood.
Robert Schlaifer on the THEORY – PRACTICE GAP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Schlaifer
Bring to test as soon as possible a number of alternate designs-pick one that combined good characterictics with few developmental problems-then work intensely to develop it.
Now that should not be too difficult now, should it?
fyi, where is the evidence of water fluoridation having a positive effect? Curious. Bought a water distiller this week.
Doesn’t toothpaste do enough of a job on it’s own?
Are comments and posts on this server your your only source of information?
Right here, infused. And the best part is that you don’t have to pay for a pill.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9pD_UK6vGU