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Open mike 19/11/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, November 19th, 2012 - 101 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

101 comments on “Open mike 19/11/2012”

  1. Jenny 1

    Coal Kills

    Kill Coal

    Coal kills people

    Coal kills planets

    Coal kills, Ban it

    From the US elections:

    One of the headlines of this election is how coal—the prime cause of man-made climate change—lost traction with voters, despite a huge influx of campaign spending by the fossil fuel industry. The industry was hoping to use coal to beat President Obama and win a Senate majority in coal states that also were swing states. In Virginia, Ohio, Pennsylvania and Montana, Democratic senators won against that onslaught of coal messaging and money. And the president won a majority in three of those states. On top of that, no senator who had voted against efforts in the Senate to strip the EPA of its ability to work on climate change ended up being punished at the polls. The coal money going into this campaign was a major effort to punish senators for voting for greenhouse gas controls and against coal and that effort failed—dramatically.

    Earth Justice

    http://earthjustice.org/blog/2012-november/climate-change-re-elected-as-political-issue

    [lprent: off topic. Sent to OpenMike ]

  2. Jenny 2

    No doubt, that at the secret pre-conference meeting on Friday held behind closed doors between business leaders and the Labour caucus, big coal was present.

    The message would have been, shut your traps, or else.

  3. Jenny 3

    A global call to arms from “anonymous” to all internet activists.

    Anonymous attacks 10,000 Israeli websites over Gaza

  4. KhandallaMan 5

    What happened this weekend?

    After a year of consultation and remits the members choose new Rules.
    Shearer/Robertson mis-interpreted the membership power as a threat: mistake; they should have embraced it. 
    Shearer let journos rattle him over Cunliffe stating the obvious.
    Shearer throws his toys out of the pram (and lost all the benefit of a good speech.)
    Shearer calls for a vote that ignores the process just agreed by the members.

    Shearer confirms all doubts about his ability under fire. 

    • Red Rosa 5.1

      Shearer needs to study Jack Marshall’s speech after he was rolled by Muldoon in 1974. No doubt a nice guy, but not up to the job.

      Clearly, he cannot energize caucus and bring forward the essential fresh faces. The Key government has been in chaos for months, yet rolls on almost unscathed due to incompetent Labour attacks. Defeat snatched from the jaws of victory, time after time.

      No wonder the rank & file are infuriated. It will take more than one mediocre speech to get them enthused.

    • David H 5.2

      Until you need a 5 second sound bite then he’s all at sea!

    • Greg Doolan 5.3

      Totally agree. What Labour needs now, what the country needs now is transparent democracy. National are doing dodgy deals with Sky City and who knows who else behind the public’s back. But what alternative does Labour in its present form offer? We do not need a self interested, vision less cartel to be running Labour into the ground or to be running New Zealand. Shearer and his allies behave like members of the Chinese Communist Party, spreading disinformation, performing hatchet jobs on any perceived threat and conniving in the back room to retain central control of everything. Labour with its present leadership is unvotable, even for someone like myself who has NEVER voted for anyone else. If David Cunliffe does manage to wrestle control away from this bunch it will not be a moment too soon for both the party and New Zealand.

  5. bomber 6

    It looks like they aren’t just going to demote Cunliffe – they are going to expel him from the caucus?!?

    • felix 6.1

      Where’s that coming from, bomber?

    • BM 6.2

      Yep, looks like he’s getting the boot.
      No room for back stabbers.

    • I have heard talk about disciplining and this is amazing.  If it occurs it will split the party in two.  

      The party despite intense pressure tells Caucus that they want to have a greater say in future leadership selection decisions including the endorsement next February.

      David Cunliffe has not said he will challenge.  He has not ruled it out in the future but there is a right for leadership to be reviewed.  A challenge is of course possible and perfectly within his rights under caucus rules.

      The ructions that have occurred are because of concern with Shearer’s performance.  He had a good day on Sunday and spoke very well.  Continued performances like this will mean that leadership issues will become moot.

      Shearer should also show leadership by dealing with errant members of caucus.  To the leaker who continuously undermines Cunliffe he should be dealt with summarily, Shane Jones undermining of relationships with the Green Party are something that should be dealt with.

      Shearer should also deal with caucus and seek to unite it and give positions on merit.

      • Nick 6.3.1

        Shearers response to launch the leadership bid within Caucus will (if he wins) tell the rank and file that they have no say on leadership (despite the remits). Key will laugh like crazy as Shearer and his Caucus allies tear the Labour party in two. Is that the mark of the man? Is that the mark of Parliamentary Labour?

        • BM 6.3.1.1

          Shearer needs to jump on Cunliffe with jackboots, he’s fighting for his political career.
          Time to get bloody.

          • Colonial Viper 6.3.1.1.1

            You mean Shearer should now get rid of a bunch of his MPs, leaving only his closest supporters left standing in caucus?

            I suppose it’s one way to win a 60% confidence vote, but for Labour it will be a disaster.

    • David H 6.4

      I noticed that on Firstline Shearer is all me me me, what happened to whatever is best for the party??? Didn’t take long for him to become a me person.

      So he we have Rachael talking to Cunliffe about leadership challenges. And now they say a member on Shearer’s side, (he is live on the phone to Patrick Gower,) is accusing Cunliffe of Treachery!! LIVE on TV3! What a colossal fuckwit! (Mallard comes to mind, he’s spiteful enough) the sooner, this bullshit and idiot that are fanning the flames are hunted down and ejected from the party the better for all.

      I mean No wonder the Nats are not losing in the polls, you couldn’t write comedy this good!!

  6. just saying 7

    More brilliance from Puddleglum. This time on Key’s “jocular” nature.

    http://www.thepoliticalscientist.org/?p=1138#more-1138

  7. just saying 8

    Little question maybe someone can help me with:

    Was any other caucus member asked if they would rule out a future leadership bid?

    Surely if Cunliffe was asked and Robertson was not (‘Do you support Shearer?’) is a completely different question) this must be proof of a deliberate stacking of the deck by the reporters concerned.

    So many lines appeared to be crossed the past few days, I’ve been wondering about the possibility of a complaint to the broadcasting standards committee. It’s worrying that the media circus appears to now have carte blanche to misrepresent the facts deliberately manipulate future events including public opinion.

    • muzza 8.1

      Indeed JS – It is the propaganda circus making sure that the people of this country, (those who bother to pay attention), are kept removed from the information, in any way possible.

      Just keep confusing all/every message, perhaps people will give up, just to make sure, repeat, repeat, repeat, then litter lies with more lies and deflections, its terrible to see how low the NZ media has sunk over the years.

      What do these little cretins think they are achieving, and where are they trained to operate in such dishonest, underhand ways, printing, editing, “reporting” lies!

      The more you look at it, the more the media and its operators appear as nothing more than foreign agitators, which is pretty much what the political system is being run by anyway..

      The world is but a stage…..

  8. Shearers speech is said to be a good one,however, one speech does not make the man,
    nothing changes, his ignorance of the internet world,ie commenters,bloggers,etc shows
    he has no inclusiveness in mind,he has not even appologized for his statements,neither have
    the other ministers.
    The wider membership back cunliffe and have for a long time and i am picking that if
    shearer stays on then the heart of labour will walk away.
    If Cunliffe is ejected from caucus,this will start a strong objection from members,activists,
    bloggers,commentators etc.
    Shearer needs to do the decent thing and step down,he keeps saying he will be the next
    PM, what a joker, no, he simply will be helping that ‘nice’ guy shonkey.

  9. The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 10

    Labour are really looking like they are the government in waiting.

    Dicks.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1D5Sa2Yq-2g

  10. I thought you might like to know which companies are supporting Israel and its murderous policies towards the Palestinians. You might not want to buy their products to tell them what you think of them bombing and killing children and women and keeping the Gaza strip Palestinians starving year after year after year.

  11. Treetop 13

    It is all about egos between Shearer and Cunliffe.

    Shearer’s ego is, I will fight to remain the leader.

    Two problems here for me: Shearer cannot ignore what the Labour caucus and the Labour membership want.

    Shearer misinterprets political speak due to his inexperience being a politician, I think the misinterpreting makes him come across as being hesitant/indecisive.

    Cunliffe’s ego is, I have the ability to be the leader if voted in

    Cunliffe does not misinterpret political speak, he does not come across as being hesitant or indecisive.

  12. prism 15

    WTF Apparently Gaza doesn’t have underground shelters for its people. Surely this provision would be a basic, and they have tunnelling expertise which they use for transporting weapons. Which they then use to show Israelis that their opposition is still strong, they are not beaten down.
    Then as they send off their missiles they provoke reaction from the extreme firepower that is available to the Jewish state, which then rains down on Gaza and harms their own people. A really vicious circle.

    I thought that there was unemployment in Gaza and if so why couldn’t the young men have been assigned to practically help themselves, their families and communities. Maybe they could have something like Coober Pedy has, underground rooms that are cool in the heat. That would depend on their geology though.

    Wouldn’t it be great if the USA anounced to Israel that it was going to divert some of the funds and assistance that it gives to them, to development in Gaza to help this war-damaged state. And that every time Gaza attacked Israel, there would be a deduction from the aid funds. And that every time Israel actually used their weapons on the Palestinians there would be a deduction from the weapons assistance program they presently provide to Israel.

    As a weapons manufacturer the USA would probably not be allowed to do this because of lobbying opposition. And it is an important part of their economy. And because it also acts as a proxy war and proving ground for weapons, demonstrating USA might to the rest of the world.

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      WTF Apparently Gaza doesn’t have underground shelters for its people.

      Not that it would help much. If a chosen target is assessed to be reinforced against attack, or has a bomb shelter, (US supplied) bunker buster munitions will be used instead of standard ones.

    • Uturn 16.1

      Re Joyce “threatening” UoA: Interesting to note how the Herald article paints the picture of the UoA being some sort of recalcitrant Leftist organisation. Nothing could be further from the truth. Apart from just talking bollocks, I don’t know how Joyce or a journalist could meet the VC there and decide that he needed guidance on how to understand what is going on.

      Leading on from the mindset of the Knowledge Czar, Simon Collins of the Herald is going to take a week to prove that there is no light at the end of tunnel for anyone:

      http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10848317

      This first introduction simply reflects the limitations of his own opinions and life experience of what is and isn’t possible. For it to be true, a certain number of people would have to cease to exist. People successfully shift industry and the single most influential element is the ability of the employer to possess the kinds of traits that an active affiliation with the arts and humanities encourage. More, not less of these things, will solve the imbalances our working environments tend to experience.

  13. gobsmacked 17

    Blimey, things have turned really nasty in caucus …

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/court/7942505/Shearer-hit-workmate-breaking-tooth

    ;)

    (sorry, just needed a laugh this Monday morning …)

  14. lprent 18

    Site is getting a reboot for updates in 30 minutes. I was going to do it on Friday when fast-reacting tech support was available bearing in mind the outage that happened last time I did this, but the site was understandably too active.

    So we will be offline for a minute or two at about 11am is everything works ok.

    • lprent 18.1

      That was a bit more exciting that I’d prefer. I’m not sure yet, but it looks like there was a left over setting from the hardware repair 72 days ago that prevented a clean restart.

      One 30 minute outage later….

      • karol 18.1.1

        TS now working fine for me.

        Questions were asked on Twitter.

        • lprent 18.1.1.1

          There was an active exploit that I needed to get plugged. Wasn’t able to do the reboot last week so I worried about it during the weekend. Did it this morning because I have the time to deal with an outage.

          I’ll do another reboot this evening with a hardware tech standing by to see if the restart is actually a real problem.

          Responded on twitter – thanks.

  15. Fortran 19

    Bumble Dee and Tumble Weed

    He is a former overseas Banker
    He lives in Central Auckland
    He lives in a multi million dollar house
    His children go to private schools
    He is a multi millionaire

    Guess who – Key yea, and ????? our new leader – check the difference

    • ad 19.1

      If you are imputing David Cunliffe in this, please say so plainly.

    • Uturn 19.2

      That description could be anyone who owns property in central auckland. If a guy visits Africa and lends someone money expecting interest, does that mean he’s an overseas banker? Maybe Aucklanders should be banned from being holding political positions. Probably do the country good.

  16. prism 20

    There was an interesting interview topic by Kathryn Ryan on 9toNoon this a.m. Morrisey you might be interested. It was about farmers and their problems with interest swop contrivances (better name than derivatives).

    It seems that the Australian banks don’t need to worry about a falling Australian economy, they will just milk our milk-based economy with legerdemain in front of farmers who come seeking capital. There will be farmers selling up because of the pressure from the interest rates of these things soon as many suffer a fall in dairy prices. I wonder who will buy their farms then?

    One farmer is said to have paid $4 million to get out of the break clause that most of us would know about through our house mortgagors. Mine was too high to change from fixed to floating at one time. The farmers are involved in huge costs to do so!

    Overseas they are suing banks about their deceptions or inadequate explanations of these financial instruments – of torture. Here we are just getting started but there are people working on it, despite Federated Farmers who apparently has an ex-banker leading its management team who is pushing the personal responsibility and liability line. Damen O’Connor is doing some sterling work on this.

    • Colonial Viper 20.1

      banks who sell high risk toxic products to their clients should be done for it.

    • muzza 20.2

      Water Care – Loss 60m
      Auckland Council – Loss 167m

      Both these are only this years losses on the instruments, and who knows what the contract positions looks like!

      The farmer situations will force the farms into foreign hands, which it given the swaps were designed to reek havoc, one must conclude that this was the desired outcome.

  17. felix 21

    Time to tune in to radio nz to find out what Trevor’s been telling Matthyawn.

    • karol 21.1

      MH said “Cunliffe over-played his hand during the weekend.”

    • Anne 21.2

      Hooton said Cunliffe was following the TV cameras around. What I saw was the exact opposite. The TV cameras followed Cunliffe around and wouldn’t leave him alone. It was harassment.

      • mickysavage 21.2.1

        Aye.  Cunliffe sat ensconced with the New Lynn delegates for most of the conference.  On Saturday he did not move during the vote on the constitutional changes.  He did not lobby anyone. Every time he went for a pee the cameras jumped on him.

        Hooton should not channel Mallard so often and take his comments with a grain of salt …

        • lprent 21.2.1.1

          I didn’t see him lobbying anyone. I did not hear of him lobbying anyone.

          I did hear of a lot of lobbying by caucus members to prevent the 60% leadership trigger going through both directly and via the calls, mail and texts that people were sending through. Thank you for doing that and thank you for your trust. Us poor struggling psuedo-journalists like your support.

    • Colonial Viper 21.3

      Overplayed??? I didn’t see anyone threatening to instigate an early leadership vote during the weekend…uh, except Shearer’s team.

  18. just saying 22

    Some sober and wise ananlysis from gordon Campbell.

    http://gordoncampbell.scoop.co.nz/2012/11/19/gordon-campbell-on-the-labour-party-ructions/

    He concludes:

    …This re-birthing process cannot be avoided for the sake of some short term show of “unity’ staged to please the political pundits. Of late, Labour has been led by someone who cannot manage either his party’s best talent or the rogue elements within his own caucus – while the alternative option as leader seems to be deeply resented by many of the senior Labour MPs. Too bad for the party faithful. Evidently, they will need to wait a little while longer for a leadership that’s able to get really tough on John Key, rather than on its own dissatisfied elements.

  19. Is is true that Labour would like to lower the voting age to 16?

    • BM 23.2

      Learning civics is a good idea
      Lowering the age to 16 is a shitty attempt at trying to increase the left vote.
      Gullible 16 year olds indoctrinated by left leaning teachers then going out and voting, just the sort of self serving BS you’d expect from Labour

      I’d prefer raising the voting age to 20, unless you’re working then you can vote from 18 onwards.

      • Rogue Trooper 23.2.1

        the agenda of the first four lines are more than just a Bowel Movement

      • Karen 23.2.2

        I would have thought that most 16 year olds haven’t got much knowledge of or interest in politics and would most likely follow their parent’s voting habits.

      • felix 23.2.3

        “Lowering the age to 16 is a shitty attempt at trying to increase the left vote.”

        Highly debatable. It’s just as easy to make the case that a teenage mindset naturally aligns well with extreme right wing libertarianism. The entire philosophy can be pretty well summed up as “STOP TELLING ME WHAT TO DO I KNOW MY RIGHTS YOU’RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!!”

        Remember when you were a teenager and you wanted the freedom to make all your own decisions but you still expected your folks to supply you with a roof over your head and food in the fridge? That’s ACT policy.

        Most people go through a bit of that as a teen. Most of us grow out of it.

        “just the sort of self serving BS you’d expect from Labour”

        Uh huh, whatevs.

        “I’d prefer raising the voting age to 20″

        Hilar.

      • prism 23.2.4

        Gullible 16 year olds indoctrinated by left leaning teachers

        Its a wonder teachers can seem to walk straight when so many of them are known by all to be left-leaning. Some probably have to be carried around reposing horizontally on a palanquin because of the way they are always sloping off.

      • karol 23.2.5

        Have you ever taught 16-20 year olds?  You know many of them are as likely to want to say or do the opposite of what a teacher tells them, don’t you?

  20. aerobubble 24

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/7966662/Financial-squeeze-goes-on-the-once-well-off
    How many of these people would still have their retirement funds had Key not have ended the deposit guarantee scheme? And why did they no hedge and put some of their funds into banks and secured investments in Australia where there is such a scheme. Now they need the welfare system, a salutatory tale indeed, that once high fliers rightly should get the safety net.

  21. aerobubble 25

    Kiwis born in NZ, who never stepped foot in NZ, could be eligible for student loans when they attend NZ universities? And why would NZ want Kiwis in Australia to get citizenship for their children and so create a class of dual citizens who could quite easily bridge the tasman, owning rentals in Auckland why sunning it in Australia? How does that help our economy?

  22. Jackal 26

    John Keys worst performance ever

    Dismissing the Reserve Bank’s projections, dismissing Statistics New Zealand and the current unemployment rate, lies concerning youth employment, confusion about interest rates, dishonesty concerning the CGT and dismissing the growing divide between rich and poor just to mention a bit of John Keys recent disingenuous propaganda…

    • ianmac 26.1

      And consider the looming question of knowing or not knowing about Kim Dotcom. According to the wise Mr Hooton, If Key is proven to have known and been involved, then Key would have to resign from Parliament. March next year?

      • Jackal 26.1.1

        Could be sooner… There’s the SkyCity convention centre deal, which is the subject of an inquiry by the Auditor-General that has Keys dirty mits all over it. Here’s an interesting exchange between Green MP Denise Roche and Steven Joyce from a few days ago.

  23. aerobubble 27

    Key asked about CGT. Said he was open to debate. That its NO to a CGT. And that we already have one. All in one reply on Q&A. Key is irrelevant.

  24. ianmac 28

    Do the rank and file have any say about choosing the Leader in the National Party?
    It seems that the rank and file decision to have a say is usual in most Western Democracies, and now in Labour. How about the Nats? Democratic are they?

  25. One Tāne Huna 29

    Can someone please explain the meaning of “refutes” to Fairfax’s headline writers?

  26. Vicky32 30

    In respect of unemployment – two stories – both of which make me frustrated and sad/angry.
    The first; the other night I set out to make an application to the ACC call centre (yes, but that’s how desperate I am). Through several pages on their website, save and continue, so far so good… Then, page 7, voice recording. The applicant must phone a number in any of the four main centres, and make a 30 second recording, entering a 5 digit ID code to do so. So, I disconnect, being that I am on dial up, make the recording, and return to the continue the application. Sadly, when I return, and re-connect, the page refreshes and gives me a new ID number – and tells me that I have not made a recording, having lost all the information I entered under the old ID number. So, I try again, same story. I phone their ‘if you have a problem’ number and leave a message for the HR bunny. She emailed me today, with the totally useless advice that I ‘use a friend’s phone’, or my ‘mobile phone’. Clearly, whatever someone’s reason for having to use dial up, someone with dial-up is excluded from applying for this job. 
    [The most amazing thing – I have just finished a phone screening by an ACC HR person, in response to my angry email! Wish me luck!]
    Story # 2 – which is sadder and more frustrating. I know a guy on Facebook, who I think is about 20 or 21 years old. He’s been unemployed for years, and has made as many applications as I have – 1000+. Now, he’s decided to join the IDF and go off to Israel. (To be fair, he has other reasons for choosing the IDF, reasons I find utterly incomprehensible, but still. My father did the same thing in 1938, for the same reasons – joining the British Army in  his case. The consequences for his life and ours, were horrendous. Granted, in his case he would probably have joined the army anyway. However these two incidents (my father and this guy) both demonstrate the kind of person who ends up actually being on the frontline in any war.

    • xtasy 30.1

      I sugges “worker volunteer brigades” to be established in NZ. Sadly most are too corrupted and complacent to even consider active resistance and to stand up for rights. They rather sell their bodies to make ends meet, as MSM tv media and so actualy encourage “alternative” lifestyles. Resistance is non existent in this dumbed down, manipulated and brainwashed country. They do not get it. So it is one against the other, shit on each other and the likes. I see it every day. Kiwis have become the worst cowards in the western world, no guts to even consider taking a stand, hence the flood to Australia. NO NATION, NO DIGNITY, NO WORTH: A SELL OUT COUNTRY IN SHORT!!!

  27. Draco T Bastard 31

    In amongst all the beat up about/by Labour there’s this bit of news:

    * 75% of Aucklanders want integrated bus-rail improvements to their public transport
    * 64% support building the major City Rail Link (CRL) project, only 14% oppose
    * 64% of those who support the CRL want it built “as soon as possible”, 22% by 2020
    * Only 3% of CRL supporters think that it does not need to be complete by 2020
    * If the CRL increases train frequency to every 15 minutes in peak hours, 6% would switch to using rail to travel to work
    * Using conservative assumptions (see report), it is calculated that rail trips in the Auckland area could increase in peak by 5,230,000 trips a year and off peak trips by 1,640,000
    * The extra 6,870,000 trips would lift rail patronage 65% above current figures

  28. Well that’s the MSM vindicated, sorry M8 )-: they were being played merrily.

    Another knee jerk assumption from some blogger with a pseudonym :-D

  29. xtasy 33

    Depression hit me today, or rather yesterday, about Labour and the left. But I had to get some senses together and chose some musical distractions, of which some are:

    Shit, this Opera browser is CRAP too, not showing links, I had enough of all this shit going on. Where are we heading? It is total big brother dictatorship and manipulation. I am starting to realise where not only “Che” came from but even more extreme ones of earlier days. NO faith in this society, that is my conclusion. Draw your own, but you will be an idiot to “trust”. I know too much, and some media may soon come out with some of that!

    NZ is an oligopoly commercial dictatorship, media included, that is the bloody truth. Never compromise with that, you may better commit suicide as it is NOT worth living in or under such dictatorship!

  30. xtasy 34

    Ananau Alborado Peru

    and others are ethnic music performance

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZYpGocxxfo

    something worth studying! Tihuanaco!

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     It is clear that the first draft of the Māori Language Bill was about structures and funding rather than the survival of te reo Māori, Labour’s Māori Development Spokesperson Nanaia Mahuta says.  “Labour is pleased that the Minister of Māori… ...
    4 days ago
  • Report proves troubled school shouldn’t have opened
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    5 days ago
  • Reply to PM’s statement on deploying troops to Iraq
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    5 days ago
  • Minister must take action on death trap slides
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    5 days ago
  • Manus Island and the New Zealand Government
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
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    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
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    GreensBy Eugenie Sage MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Let’s not turn a blind eye to human rights
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Its Just Not Cricket
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Time for NZ to #BeCrueltyFree
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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    2 weeks ago
  • We want access!
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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Greens call on Super Fund to divest from fossil fuels
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    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    2 weeks ago
  • Young Kiwis’ housing crisis
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    GreensBy Jan Logie MP
    3 weeks ago
  • On the River Patrol in Te Tai Tokerau
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    GreensBy Catherine Delahunty MP
    3 weeks ago
  • Opening of Parliament 2015
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    GreensBy Russel Norman MP
    3 weeks ago

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