Open mike 28/07/2023

37 comments on “Open mike 28/07/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   28 July 2023 at 7:33 am

   We need a resilience ministry to provide a semblance of intelligent design for Aotearoa long-term. That's the impression I get from reading this: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/sustainable-future/lake-onslow-and-the-politics-of-power

   National reiterated this week that if elected it would not go ahead with the Central Otago scheme. A Cabinet decision on whether it will be included in future feasibility studies on energy options is imminent.

   Just over $20 million has been spent so far investigating the Onslow option as part of the Government’s wider NZ Battery Project study. The five terawatt storage capacity of Onslow would solve the country’s energy-storage issues for the long-term, smooth out consumer power prices and allow fossil fuel-generated power to become a thing of the past, according to the first stage of the feasibility studies.

   Sounds promising, but then read the comments from energy experts below the report! Reminds me of the ancient fable of the blind people describing an elephant after each feeling a different part of it. Complex systems require lots of brain power to comprehend. A nationwide resilience strategy encompasses a multi-generational perspective, climate-change, energy tech, economic analysis, stakeholder psychology – can't expect civil servants to be able to do that on basic education alone.
   • Bearded Git 1.1

     28 July 2023 at 9:02 am

     I read the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment's report on Electricity System Pathways a few weeks ago and came to the conclusion that Onslow made no sense because it is far too expensive.

     Instead we should close Tiwai Point which frees up enough electricity supply such that there would probably be enough time for battery storage technology to develop so that Onslow would never be needed.

     Over this period NZ would, of course, continue to invest in and improve (make more efficient) the electricity distribution network, invest in power saving initiatives and additional renewable generation (mostly solar).

     Nuclear power is expensive compared with renewables when realistic nuclear power plant building costs and massive decommissioning costs are included (which they usually aren't) and is not needed in the above scenario.

     It may be (in the above scenario) that NZ needs to keep a gas or coal power station that can generate around 4-5% of NZ power needs as a reserve that is turned on very occasionally i.e. perhaps 1-2% of generation would be fossil fuel based.

     https://pce.parliament.nz/publications/future-electricity-system-pathways-for-new-zealand/
     • Dennis Frank 1.1.1

       28 July 2023 at 9:07 am

       Yes that seems like a sensible strategy.
     • Ad 1.1.2

       28 July 2023 at 9:14 am

       No future government can just command either Meridian to redirect Manapouri power production, any more than we can command Rio Tinto to close Tiwai Point.

       This isn't the 1970s and they aren't coming back.

       National may well hate the NZBattery Lake Onslow option, but let's see how they go when they get a 2021 situation when there's no wind, a long cloudy system killing solar, and it's winter so your main draw is to Huntly north.

       At that point Transpower is in trouble.

       And at that point National will need to show they have an answer that was better than the one they killed off.
       • Blazer 1.1.2.1

         28 July 2023 at 9:22 am

         Of course the Govt can command Rio to close Tiwai.

         They've threatened to close it themselves so many times it became…monotonous.
         • pat 1.1.2.1.1

           28 July 2023 at 9:45 am

           Yes the Government can do anything they have the numbers in the house to pass…if they are willing to shoulder any and all consequences.
       • Bearded Git 1.1.2.2

         28 July 2023 at 9:48 am

         Meridian is 52% state owned. I would have thought that gives the government a great deal of influence. The government could certainly direct that Tiwai pay the same price as other consumers which would see Tiwai closed soon after.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.3

       28 July 2023 at 9:20 am

       Onslow made no sense because it is far too expensive.

       Instead we should close Tiwai Point which frees up enough electricity supply such that there would probably be enough time for battery storage technology to develop so that Onslow would never be needed.

       BG….exactly. All the blather about Green (so called) Hydrogen..is just a future fantasy.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/464004/ministers-told-to-be-cautious-about-subsidising-green-hydrogen-production

       https://www.carbonnews.co.nz/story.asp?storyID=23731

       Far better to go here !

       https://theconversation.com/why-new-zealand-should-invest-in-smart-rail-before-green-hydrogen-to-decarbonise-transport-153075

       Sadly…and for "reasons", Labour seems to have ignored.
       • Bearded Git 1.1.3.1

         28 July 2023 at 9:44 am

         Agree Psyc….so-called green hydrogen relies on mythical "excess" renewable power being available. Hydrogen takes more energy to produce that it creates.

         There do seem to be some limited uses for hydrogen in trucks and trains, but cars have taken the electric route and that won't change.
     • Hunter Thompson II 1.1.4

       28 July 2023 at 12:56 pm

       Thanks for noting the PCE report on electricity supply. I didn't know about it.

       Sounds like Onslow is very costly.
     • SPC 1.1.5

       28 July 2023 at 11:33 pm

       The actual conclusions Simon Upton came to.

       https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/492094/not-enough-info-to-compare-lake-onslow-to-other-power-options-parliamentary-commissioner-for-the-environment
2. Dennis Frank 2

   28 July 2023 at 8:00 am

   Here's an in-depth interview on nuclear power tech: https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/07/24/the-left-goes-nuclear/

   Debates on the ecosocialist left are raging, from advocates of degrowth to a new crop of ecomodernists. Many in this latter camp have begun to push nuclear power as a potential alternative to fossil fuels that would help us avoid climate catastrophe. Joshua Frank is the managing editor at CounterPunch. He is an investigative journalist and author of the recent award-winning book Atomic Days: The Untold Story of the Most Toxic Place in America (Haymarket, 2022).

   Joshua outlines his generational perspective:

   I came to my political awakening in the in the late nineties. I was living in Portland and went up to the WTO protests, and I was around a lot of the older anti-nuclear folks, who are fortunately still around and doing educational work. A lot of the battles that they won are being resurrected.

   I was never exactly in the pro-nuclear camp, but I was certainly naïve about the threat that it poses today, not only with respect to existing waste but also future proliferation and this new push for atomic energy. I think this is something that a lot of people on the left in my generation aren’t really aware of, because these were victories that happened in the past and in some ways, perhaps, we thought that these battles were behind us. Unfortunately they’re not, and so I think there is this new reckoning. It’s exacerbated by a lot of the propaganda that’s coming out from the pro-nuclear left, as well as the nuclear industry itself.

   His focus is primarily waste-disposal, yet he covers other dimensions as well. Any policy shift by the Greens will have to be fine-tuned toward the future on a realistic basis.

   In California, there are something like 75,000 people working in the solar industry; there aren’t many more people that work in the nuclear industry in the entire country. The renewable industry is exploding nationwide.
3. Anne 3

   28 July 2023 at 10:07 am

   It may have already been mentioned on this site, but I have come across a new RNZ podcast series called "Undercurrent". It is a 7 part series about mis and disinformation in NZ and the effects it has already had on NZ discourse plus the probable effects it will have on the General Election. I have yet to listen to them but it sounds like a fascinating subject – not to mention deeply concerning.

   An intro by Suzie Ferguson:

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018899153/undercurrent-rnz-doco-series-on-disinformation-launches
   • Anne 3.1

     28 July 2023 at 10:22 am

     Link to actual series:

     https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/undercurrent
     • weston 3.1.1

       28 July 2023 at 10:58 am

       Seems to me one person's mis/dis/mal /information is anothers truth dont you think ?Russiagate turned out to be a concoction which very large news networks treated as true for years the hunter biden laptop story was considered not factual but in fact was absolutely factual to cite two comparatively recent examples .

       The twitter files and Missouri vs Biden reveals an everexpanding network of so called mis/information experts advising gov depts in the US gov depts incidentally weaponized against ordinary citizens and political opponents of the DNC .

       Deeply concerning indeed !! I might be wrong but i doubt Suzi Ferguson will be covering mainstream " establishment " misinformation but will be fearmongering about Qanon antivax etc etc
       • Ed 3.1.1.1

         28 July 2023 at 11:10 am

         As you correctly note, I doubt if Suzi and the propaganda crew will be investigating the MSM's own misinformation.

         Iraq and weapons of Mass Destruction anyone?

         I don’t trust a word they say after years and years of misinformation.
         • Anne 3.1.1.1.1

           28 July 2023 at 11:46 am

           "Iraq and weapons of Mass Destruction anyone?"

           That is another subject altogether. So we sit on our bums and do nothing about the ominous spread of disinformation wherever it comes from and the inevitable violence that goes with it because umm… WMDs in Iraq umpteen years ago wot we all know didn't exist.

           Sheesh! You are as much part of the problem as weston.
       • Anne 3.1.1.2

         28 July 2023 at 11:27 am

         No. It is not about "Qanon antivax etc. etc." although since that is how it started here in NZ it does get mentioned. It is about the fast moving and insidious spread of disinformation in general together with the fanning of extreme hatred, racism, misogyny, conspiracy theories, antisemitism, white supremacy and continuing CC denial. There have already been individuals overseas who have been murdered and it is only a matter of time before a NZer or two fall victim – likely to be politicians. That is not my assumption but that of experts who have been researching the subject.

         You can scoff as much as you like but my observation is that you are part of the problem by effectively denying the existence of this "deeply concerning" phenomenon brought to us by the advent of social media.

         Edit: we have already seen a major example. The Ch.Ch massacre.
         • Ed 3.1.1.2.1

           28 July 2023 at 11:33 am

           No scoffing meant by me.

           Merely observing the litany of lies propagated by the MSM. It's a bit rich when they preach about misinformation and disinformation when a mirror and some humility would suffice.
       • joe90 3.1.1.3

         28 July 2023 at 2:40 pm

         hunter biden laptop story

         And quite the story it is, too.

         /

         Forensic analysis

         In March 2022, The Washington Post published the findings of two forensic information analysts it had retained to examine 217 gigabytes of data provided to the paper on a hard drive by Republican activist Jack Maxey, who represented that its contents came from the laptop. One of the analysts characterized the data as a "disaster" from a forensics standpoint. The analysts found that people other than Hunter Biden had repeatedly accessed and copied data for nearly three years; they also found evidence that people other than Hunter Biden had accessed and written files to the drive, both before and after the New York Post story.[3] In September 2020, someone created six new folders on the drive, including with the names "Biden Burism", "Big Guy File", "Salacious Pics Package" and "Hunter. Burisma Documents". One of the analysts found evidence someone may have accessed the drive contents from a West Coast location days after The New York Post published their stories about the laptop

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy#Forensic_analysis

         The twitter files

         Do keep up.

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-22-07-2023/#comment-1960826
4. weka 4

   28 July 2023 at 12:23 pm

   Test to see if reels embed, and because it's funny as

   https://www.facebook.com/reel/656952106366806
5. Ed 5

   28 July 2023 at 1:09 pm

   Hypernormalisation – Adam Curtis.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation

   Does this sound like neoliberalism in New Zealand since the 1990s?

   Everyone in my country and in America and throughout Europe knows that the system that they are living under isn’t working as it is supposed to; that there is a lot of corruption at the top. But when ever the journalists point it out, everyone goes “Wow that’s terrible!” and then nothing happens and the system remains the same.

   https://www.adbusters.org/articles-coded/what-is-hypernormalization
   • joe90 5.1

     28 July 2023 at 2:45 pm

     You're touting a documentary.

     Link?
     • Ed 5.1.1

       28 July 2023 at 3:00 pm

       It is a BBC documentary

       https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/p04b183c/hypernormalisation
       • Ed 5.1.1.1

         28 July 2023 at 3:04 pm

         I think it can be purchased as well.
       • joe90 5.1.1.2

         28 July 2023 at 3:11 pm

         A geo-blocked link?

         Lazy.
         • Ed 5.1.1.2.1

           28 July 2023 at 3:16 pm

           Is it necessary to be abusive. ?
           • francesca 5.1.1.2.1.1

             28 July 2023 at 4:22 pm

             Wow!

             Thanks for that Ed .always a fan of Adam Curtis

             Long,so I'm watching it in serial form on YouTube ,easy as

             It's fascinating
             • Ed …

               28 July 2023 at 4:31 pm

               Hypernormalisation is like a parable for our times.

               My favourite of all his films is Century of Self – which explains, better than anyone else has, how and why we abandoned collectivism and idealism for individualism and managerialism.
               • francesca …

                 28 July 2023 at 7:52 pm

                 I'll look out for it

                 Thanks !!
         • MickeyBoyle 5.1.1.2.2

           28 July 2023 at 3:58 pm

           I was able to watch it, no issues?
           • weka 5.1.1.2.2.1

             28 July 2023 at 5:17 pm

             BBC iPlayer only works in the UK. Sorry, it’s due to rights issues. In the UK? Here's some advice.

             from the link when I tried to play it.
             • SPC …

               29 July 2023 at 12:49 am

               It can be seen if using a VPN (re-set to UK).
   • The Chairman 5.2

     28 July 2023 at 4:29 pm

     Hypernormalisation – Adam Curtis.

     Love his (Adam Curtis) work.

     Have you seen this 6 part series? Cant get you out of my head

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFKx8ILUe14&list=PL_wv2OekqOtV_R6kfXnmly6GtZXqRjp7A
     • Ed 5.2.1

       28 July 2023 at 4:36 pm

       Yes I have seen this, The Chairman. Another exceptional documentary. The soundtrack and clips are all part of the magic he weaves. Thanks to him, I can make some sense of the world we live in.

       Like Hypernormalisation, 'Can't get you out of my Head' looks at the paralysis that has taken over the west since the advent of neoliberalism.
       It is a scathing attack on the Liberal Class.
       • The Chairman 5.2.1.1

         29 July 2023 at 10:51 am

         Another exceptional documentary series indeed, Ed.

         I love the way he goes back in time, looks at the far larger picture and brings it altogether.

         Speaking of making sense of the world we live in, check out this interview/discussion in the link below. Apparently, we are all living in a simulation and what we know of our universe and beyond is merely the headset of our virtual reality.

         https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQefdkl8PfY
   • Dennis Frank 5.3

     28 July 2023 at 6:15 pm

     Grandfathered by the Manchurian Candidate I guess, who was son of Orwell. The kind of overview that seems nicely clued-up at times & skates on too-thin ice elsewhere…

     However any folks not yet deconditioned could have their consciousness raised for the better, perhaps. Media as melange can be catalytic for some. Others would seek something deeper, some kind of theme or moral or collective intelligence. But I guess any alternative to the msm is worth the effort, huh?

     I mean, we've had a century of the culture of individualism. Idiosyncrasy has become rampant since I was young. The monoculture of normalcy had hegemony until the mid-'60s when thing started to go crazy all over the place simultaneously. Normal people freaked out big-time, got increasingly paranoid. Any perception of hypernormalcy as status quo hasn't been valid since. However, we must credit the perseverance of Labour & National's traditional collusion in the pretence that hypernormalisation works. You can measure the suckers in each new poll…

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