Open mike 29/09/2023

108 comments on “Open mike 29/09/2023 ”

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1. Dennis Frank 1

   29 September 2023 at 6:22 am

   Teal deal real? Hooton scans the plausibility of this notion (paywalled):https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-national-plus-the-greens-a-teal-deal-is-a-real-possibility-matthew-hooton/QXZIUJNYERAWJALJPV3AJT57XM/

   Not a dumb idea – best viewed as a case-by-case thing as per last time the Greens worked with National. The more fractious the rightist troika gets, the better it will work as strategic option for Lux. I was intrigued that he went out of his way to establish common ground with Hipkins in that last debate, so neolib solidarity will be his style and James can do that no problem.

   If Lux is smart he'll organise a private sit-down with James post-campaign, to plan a blue-green strategy for the next term. Okay, it's true he rarely seems smart, yet his track record in business does suggest that the possibility is realistic. Getting everyone on the same page would be a feasible skill in this scenario.

   Does this logic apply to his stroppy rightist partners? No and yes. Not on bottom lines. Yes on evident mutual-interest issues.
   • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1

     29 September 2023 at 7:32 am

     Hooten? blueGreen? Like toxic algae.

     https://www.waikatoregion.govt.nz/environment/water/algal-blooms/
     • Sanctuary 1.1.1

       29 September 2023 at 8:57 am

       As James Shaw remarked to Corin Dann when asked about the possibility of aligning with National – "Don't you get sick of asking that question?"
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.1.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 9:04 am

         Besides being classic Divide and..Rule, Its an Insult to James Shaw and Greens.

         And Dennis Frank sharing Hooten/Trotter ? Just feeding that…
         • Dennis Frank 1.1.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 9:30 am

           Now 30 years since I led the consensus decision-making process for the Greens, which I did as a non-leftist. I contributed 5 years of my life to that process, to get them into parliament, and it was pre-MMP.

           Nowadays, consensus politics is as necessary as ever. Leftist posturing is irrelevant. Post-election, folks will get real about this…
       • Bearded Git 1.1.1.2

         29 September 2023 at 1:55 pm

         Sanc-
   • AB 1.2

     29 September 2023 at 9:06 am

     Not a dumb idea

     Suggesting it is not a dumb idea tactically. But only if your purpose, as Hooton's appears to be, is to bleed more votes from National to ACT by raising fears among the libertarian right that National might really do such a thing.

     Truly believing that it makes any sense and is not simply self-contradictory, is exceptionally dumb. Environmentalism without the left-wing politics is best described as "gardening". Anyone serious about protecting the environment including the climate from catastrophic change, will run smack into the problem of having to permanently restrain corporate power from doing what it wants in its endless demands to get a return on capital. You are then engaged in doing the complete opposite of what the National Party stands for – and your opponents will describe you as 'left' even if you believe you aren't.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 1.2.1

       29 September 2023 at 9:17 am

       Environmentalism without the left-wing politics is best described as "gardening"

       I like that!..So true. Good phrase, I will remember : )
     • Dennis Frank 1.2.2

       29 September 2023 at 9:35 am

       Yeah, all true. Everyone ought to learn from the consequences of this election. Partisans will learn different lessons. I'm interested in the common ground I anticipate emerging. Moves like Hooton's are interesting signals to shifting…
       • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.2.1

         29 September 2023 at 9:51 am

         Moves like Hooton's are interesting signals to shifting…

         I doubt Hooton's 'values' are shifting, in praxis, but then 30 years is a long time…
         • Dennis Frank 1.2.2.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 10:02 am

           The machavellian play isn't normally values-driven, it's tactical, and it need not be cynical. It is engineered to achieve an outcome.
           • Drowsy M. Kram 1.2.2.1.1.1

             29 September 2023 at 10:22 am

             The machavellian [sic] play isn't normally values-driven, it's tactical, and it need not be cynical.

             Machiavellian moves and plays are often motivated by self-interest, imho.

             “It is more important to be feared than loved” – traffic lights (sanctions) ahead.
             • Dennis Frank …

               29 September 2023 at 10:28 am

               Oh yes. Essential for him to maintain relevance in his career path. You're right to point to that as it is a valid basis for cynicism. Sorry about the spelling mistake (perfection is too hard)..
   • Bearded Git 1.3

     29 September 2023 at 1:56 pm

     More defeatist stuff Dennis. You write as though Luxon has already won.
     • Dennis Frank 1.3.1

       29 September 2023 at 2:04 pm

       Because Hoots did and the polling trend-line makes that the likeliest outcome. GP credibility always derives from representation of the broader Green movement, wherein I've been anchored since '68.

       That means they will have to use the trad evolutionary survival skill of humans: adaption to circumstances. Bullshit leftist ideology will come second. If they want to prosper, I mean, in that scenario he pointed to…
       • Patricia Bremner 1.3.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 3:28 pm

         I personally give Hooten no credence after hearing his squealing and griping about the left on Kathryn Ryan's RNZ 9 'till noon last election. He was so bad she shut him down and he has not been back.

         He is fond of making bridges for non existent rivers. In this case he obviously believes every party bar Labour "wants to work with National" so his hypothesis is built on that wishy washy premise. Teal sounds like no deal.
         • Dennis Frank 1.3.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 3:40 pm

           Yes doesn't surprise me. However he has been critical of National once or twice in recent years & has been a paid advisor to them earlier, & the teal brand hit the big time via electoral success in the last aussie election…
   • Mike the Lefty 1.4

     29 September 2023 at 3:04 pm

     Hooton is pipe dreaming again.
   • bwaghorn 1.5

     29 September 2023 at 3:46 pm

     If the greens got enough votes to get a 2 party coalition with national, it should be looked at seriously, the greens would need to pick thier 3 most important causes and stare luxon down , luxon would be a fool not to seriously consider it given his other 2 options.

     Don't let the search for perfect destroy the good, or something like that.
     • Dennis Frank 1.5.1

       29 September 2023 at 4:34 pm

       Rather audacious of you – I hadn't considered any such scenario! Let's keep it in mind until post-election to ascertain feasibility. It'd be transformative for the nation but totally in line with orthodox Green praxis. As a bonus, by making it work it would clear out all the cobwebs that have been accumulating within the heads of the young idealists in the Green Left Network. https://www.greens.org.nz/green_left

       Which would ground them in collective reality nicely. I've been anticapitalist more than half a century & I'm sympathetic to their stance – whilst being dismayed by their ongoing naivety & propensity for making fools of themselves!
2. bwaghorn 2

   29 September 2023 at 6:36 am

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979367/new-survey-shows-widespread-support-for-taxes-on-capital-gains-and-windfall-profits

   Surprisingly even 50% of act voter want a cgt
   • Dennis Frank 2.1

     29 September 2023 at 7:36 am

     From your link:

     Asked if large companies should pay extra taxes on “unusually large profits”, 78% of respondents said yes. Just 13% of people disagreed with a windfall profits tax, with the remaining 9% unsure.

     So a vast majority of our electorate wants a tax on capitalism. I predict, therefore, that no leftist politician will be reported in the msm pointing this out in a public declaration!
   • AB 2.2

     29 September 2023 at 9:17 am

     Not that surprising. Never expect voters to have a coherent, properly worked out position. Including, it has to be said, oneself. This is why there is so much potential for the left to grow if it could just strike the right note and assemble the optimal grab bag of policies.
     • bwaghorn 2.2.1

       29 September 2023 at 11:22 am

       It opens the door for if ,L,G,TPM sneak the election for labour to say they made me do it ,
     • Peter 2.2.2

       29 September 2023 at 2:25 pm

       It’s sort of bizarre after all this tm, just before the election we see CGT is what people want and the two parties in the next coalition coalition are against it. And the next opposition main party.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   29 September 2023 at 7:57 am

   Nice critique of left-wing politics here:

   Held during the Covid-19 Pandemic, the hearing took place on Zoom. Those speaking to submissions opposing the legislation were subjected to vicious cross-examination by Labour and Green committee members. The notion that citizens appearing before a parliamentary committee have a right to be heard respectfully clearly no longer applies to those who step outside the ideological boundaries of transgenderism. Clearly, in Labour’s and the Greens’ moral universe, TERFs have no rights.

   When a shocked Nicola Willis rose in the House of Representatives to record her own, and the National Party’s, dismay at the treatment meted out to gender critical submitters by Labour and Green MPs, Labour’s Deborah Russell proudly owned-up to her behaviour and, to the applause of her colleagues, promised the same to all such ideological apostates appearing before her.

   https://democracyproject.nz/2023/09/28/chris-trotter-losing-the-left/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=chris-trotter-losing-the-left

   Nastiness exposure is likely to be an escalating trend! And there's this:

   It was, after all, Vilfredo Pareto, (1848—1923), who characterised democracy as a political system for securing “the orderly circulation of elites”.

   A century on, as relevant as it was then. Yet I heard Chris Bishop, on the RNZ 6am news, referring to `shit housing'. Using pleb lingo like that is a sure-fire way to represent his constituents authentically. The newsreader said he admitted that past National govts were responsible too for creating such lifestyle situations for voters. Elitists are never big on admitting mistakes made by their elite group, so I'm having to reluctantly concede that he might actually be a man of the people. I thought he was a total dork till now.
   • Sanctuary 3.1

     29 September 2023 at 8:53 am

     Chris Trotter has been writing the same column for over 20 years. He is completely clueless about the modern left and hasn't been relevant or in the loop since forever. I get heartily sick of his relentless negativism simply because the world refuses to conform to his nostalgia for a pre-1984 world. He is an old man cowering in his tastefully removated villa and waving his fist at clouds.

     I could write any of his columns from the last decade or more:

     <carefully defined straw man> to define all those he dislikes in a negative light.

     <appeal to authority> Specifically, his.

     <Demolition of straw man> in which he criticises all those he dislikes in the terms he has defined.

     <segue to identity politics> Because Chris Trotter is obsessed with the topic.

     Anyway, the conclusions is always the same. The modern left is hopeless, all is lost unless we all do as he says to restore the world to rights.

     His reactionary instinct nowadays is to spontaneously sympathise with the right, so he is angry at the left for critising it.
     • Ad 3.1.1

       29 September 2023 at 9:22 am

       Trotter simply loathes the 1980s as somethingsomething went wrong.

       Most egregiously for him is that there is no longer any monolithic class-based reform movement.

       Anyone with an once of wisdom would see that the 1980s is where the left both splintered and revived itself into a rainbow of different movements, and he 'gets' none of them:

       • Maori liberation
       • Female and sexual and reproductive liberation
       • Environmental protection
       • Anti-nuclear and peace movements, and
       • Anti-racism protests
         Evolving as they all do, as a bunch they define who progressive NZ is. They are the people doing the work, by and large.

       And of course he has no answer to why there are so many splinter resistance movements post-COVID controls.

       He can certainly string a rhetorical line together, but it's mired in a sickly nostalgia for a labour movement that dissolved with the union movement about 30 years ago.

       He would write better if he joined more community groups and felt the joy of volunteering.
       • Sanctuary 3.1.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 10:11 am

         The thing that Trotter fails to grasp is exactly that the only constant is change. Class consciousness is fragile, fleeting and fungible. Like Martyn Bradbury, Trotter tilts at the windmills of identity absolutism and associated pieties from the early 2000s. The reason he has no answer to why there are so many splinter resistance movements post-COVID controls is that in his obsession with his war against the politics of twenty years ago means he has no means to describe the world we face today.

         Trotter fails utterly to perceive what are living through at the moment is a backlash against the identity politics of the 2000s. And in the backlash and the rise of post modern post-truth news and a fractured society which no longer has many shared experiences, and after the great accelerator of the pandemic, we are seeing new configurations, and what often seem at first blush to be bizarre diagonal alliances that constantly draw people from left to right.

         A more perceptive left wing commentator who mind is still open to new interpretations and plastic enough to absord new information would be most welcome in our MSM.
         • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 10:24 am

           Good analysis and your final point especially. Hard ask though. We don't get enough intergenerational discussion to elucidate the morphing effects. Journo training ought to include a politics module with a focus on that!
         • Bearded Git 3.1.1.1.2

           29 September 2023 at 1:58 pm

           Trotter has always hated the Greens…I have referenced his articles on TS numerous times pointing this out.
           • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.1.2.1

             29 September 2023 at 2:09 pm

             The old NLP thing – entered the Alliance in parity with the Greens, exited as just another bunch of leftist losers, while the Greens succeeded! He was an activist within the NLP at the time. So the reason you could be right to assume he carries a grudge would be the leftist retreat into denial precipitated by political defeats.
       • Mike the Lefty 3.1.1.2

         29 September 2023 at 12:20 pm

         Trotter represents the old style left and doesn't really understand the changes that have taken place over the last few decades. But that is not to deny that he has written some good material in the past.
         • Ad 3.1.1.2.1

           29 September 2023 at 1:55 pm

           Tim Selwyn's description of a Winston Peters speech is pretty much an analogue of Trotter's standard paragraphs:

           "The speech lurches from one topic to the next. Observe the entire arc of delivery:

           he defines the problem, goes back in time a hundred years, maybe just fifty,

           describes the bucolic idyl that was New Zealand that (somehow) never had the problem, recalls an incident involving Muldoon,

           says what NZ First did or tried to do or thought about doing at the time the problem arose,

           blames the current government and every previous government that didn’t involve him for that problem,

           pauses and lowers his voice for the punchline – only NZ First can fix this problem.

           It’s a partially coherent, partially mythic with Holyoake notes. The technique draws applause mechanically and reliably like a grandfather clock striking a chime."

           Things just ain't what they were and it's so sad.
           • Dennis Frank 3.1.1.2.1.1

             29 September 2023 at 2:15 pm

             The parallel is instructive. Imagine a world similar to ours in which political scientists had nous. Then they would use such political pattern-detection to illuminate political psychology. That blend of mythos & problem-delineation blends then & now in the psyche for the audience, then the avatar presents as saviour blended with dragon-slayer. Powerful formula!
   • pat 3.2

     29 September 2023 at 9:35 am

     The consequences of the Balkinisation of politics are the same as for nation states….diminished resources and commonality of purpose.

     By all means enjoy the individuality but dont expect the ability to implement anything at scale.
     • Ad 3.2.1

       29 September 2023 at 9:44 am

       Alternatively the consequences are a constantly revived progressive movement that has achieved and sustained power away from the hard right about 50% in the last 3 decades.
       • pat 3.2.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 9:52 am

         And what has that 3 decades delivered?

         As said, enjoy your sense of individuality.
         • Ad 3.2.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 10:16 am

           It's delivered a functioning and successful country.

           No doubt we are more individualistic, but the scale of social cohesion was had up to the late 1980s was never going to be sustained anyway.

           Don't fall into the same trap as Trotter.
           • pat 3.2.1.1.1.1

             29 September 2023 at 10:51 am

             A 'functioning and successful country' with a housing crisis, a failing health system, educational standards declining, crumbling infrastructure, an economy that can only function via human trafficing and wealth inequality of unprecedented scale….to highlight some of that 'success'.

             Perhaps Trotter has avoided the trap that others have fallen in to
             • Ad …

               29 September 2023 at 11:20 am

               This is where you fall into a false binary of either catastrophism or trite optimism. Trotter's 1970s world had plenty going wrong as well, and they aren't hard to list:

               – deep path dependence into the petroleum-based society

               – deep path dependence into low-value agricultural commodity economy

               – small and diminishing international networks

               – a boring, smallminded, moralistic, neurotic society with a colonial mindset

               – a completely neglected Treaty relationship and suppressed racism

               – near-complete reliance on the state for economic development

               Trotter's view is like Muldoon should have just continued along forever.
               • pat …

                 29 September 2023 at 11:59 am

                 How about you defend your statement that we are a functioning successful country rather than make erroneous statements about Trotter's views on long dead politicians.

                 The binary view appears to be yours.
                 • gsays …

                   29 September 2023 at 3:44 pm

                   One defence of a 'functioning successful country' along with 'the left is different nowadays' is 'I'm doing alright'.
                 • Ad …

                   29 September 2023 at 3:59 pm

                   Crikey one of the easier defences I've been asked for.

                   – Sustained low unemployment and under-utilisation rate

                   – One of the world's lowest crime rates

                   – Spectacular landscapes that everyone else in the world adores

                   – The cities we have are actually pretty cool, consistently rated highly in the world

                   – Strong democracy and voting rate in central elections

                   – By world standards an effective public service, very low corruption across entire society

                   – By OECD standards a very progressive society, with a v strong human rights system

                   – 30% of the country is conservation estate, which is more than anywhere except Bhutan and the Marshall Islands

                   – Mild climate, by world standards, even in the 50 year forecasts

                   – Coherent multicultural society with very mild fracture lines – hard to find anywhere else

                   – Scrumptious food, and you can even hunt it for free

                   – Compared to OECD countries, a really strong welfare system that has improved over the last 6 years

                   – A government consistently shown to intervene hard and deep when it has to

                   – A very sustainable country producing .2% of greenhouse gases in world, 82% of its electricity by renewable sources, and one of the first countries to pledge a carbon-neutral future

                   – A safe country that plays by the international rules, keeps its alliances close and long, and prefers peace and diplomacy rather than spend much on defence other than when equipment wears out

                   – Has rapidly shifted its economy to specialist services, tourism, and film and television production, not just agriculture, in last 15 years

                   But sure, the health and transport systems definitely need improving, and consumption taxes are high.
                   • Dennis Frank …

                     29 September 2023 at 4:45 pm

                     I move that the next leftist govt makes you minister of tourism. Seconders??
     • Dennis Frank 3.2.2

       29 September 2023 at 9:48 am

       Yeah, exactly. Monty Python dramatised the splitter as leftist archetype way back when but did the leftists learn the lesson? Nah, shitferbrains. Still, one could let them off that hook by observing that differentiation is a natural mental process.

       My take is that one must shift into consensus politics for praxis – put one's internal zealotry to the side awhile. So I did that 30 years back in the Greens. It worked due to us all having aspirations as common ground.
   • Patricia Bremner 3.3

     29 September 2023 at 10:05 pm

     No, you had it right the first time He is a dork. I call him the ciggie butt.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   29 September 2023 at 8:42 am

   I wonder what resonance this view of Trotter's has: "there is no longer a credible left-wing party." https://democracyproject.nz/2023/09/28/chris-trotter-losing-the-left/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=chris-trotter-losing-the-left

   Credibility is in the eye of the beholder, of course. Yet, as a thesis, it may have merit. His historical analysis is based on durable principles, yet do they still work as the basis of a mass movement in politics? If he's right, it's a factor in the electorate's disillusionment with Labour. A viable alternative analysis would point to morphing of tribal leftism.
   • weka 4.1

     29 September 2023 at 9:02 am

     Imagine calling oneself left wing and then writing an anti-leftist post three days before voting opens in a general election.
     • AB 4.1.1

       29 September 2023 at 9:32 am

       Shocking lack of solidarity in doing such a thing. Sadly, I think Chris now sees himself as a prophet in the wilderness – and his faithless people will be cast into perdition unless they turn to him for forgiveness and guidance. Grandiosity pervades his work now, though sometimes there is a snippet of his old clarity which I used to enjoy years ago.
     • Dennis Frank 4.1.2

       29 September 2023 at 9:38 am

       Irony? Dunno, but I agree that it's a significant angle which reveals political psychology dimensions in the relation of advocate to cause!
       • weka 4.1.2.1

         29 September 2023 at 10:42 am

         I can't see anything ironic about it. It's just stupid and selfish. He's not the only leftie that is ok with the left losing this election, but all of it is daft.
         • SapphireGem 4.1.2.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 3:37 pm

           Fully agree weka!
   • Ad 4.2

     29 September 2023 at 9:24 am

     Trotter stood still, we moved, and he's sad.
     • Tabletennis 4.2.1

       29 September 2023 at 5:43 pm

       AD- Yes the left moved on –
       and Trotter puts the finger on it to where the GP is going:

       "The Greens move away from the system-challenging principles upon which the international Green movement was founded: Ecological Wisdom. Social Justice. Participatory Democracy. Nonviolence; is instructive. Displaying a disconcerting facility for Orwellian rewording, the Green Party of Aotearoa now lists its own core principles as: Ecological Wisdom. Social Responsibility. Appropriate Decision Making. Non-Violence."

       "The deletion of the words “justice”, “participatory” and “democracy”, amply confirms the Greens’ ideological trajectory: moving away from the emancipatory principles traditionally associated with the Left, and towards the uneasy marriage of technocratic “governance” and post-modern subjectivism so neatly personified in the party’s current co-leadership of James Shaw and Marama Davidson."

       https://thedailyblog.co.nz/2023/09/28/losing-the-left/

       If this is true, when did this happened and have the members been made aware of the new wording of its principles?
   • SPC 4.3

     29 September 2023 at 11:51 am

     After I read Trotter argue against a CGT because people of his age did not like it, I placed him in the man of yesteryear category (aging into a conservative). Similar on some Maori issues, such as co-governance – but he does occasionally lapse into idealism mode to lash Labour for listening to him and others like him.

     I have not read the article by the way … he writes different articles for different audiences because he writes well, and he can change the narrative to tell a story they can (each) appreciate.
     • Dennis Frank 4.3.1

       29 September 2023 at 12:09 pm

       Couple of good points there. Idealism must be tempered by pragmatism (story of my life) & his stance adapting to each audience makes him resemble a politician (all things to all people) & reminds us that the origins of trade got connected to local markets where you have to do a spiel to get customers.
     • Tricledrown 4.3.2

       29 September 2023 at 12:18 pm

       Trotsky seems to have been bitten by the same snake oil salesman as Hutin.Spinning pure bs.Just to try and be relevant.
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.4

     29 September 2023 at 4:06 pm

     I'm enjoying having two credible left wing parties (TPM and Greens) getting some real publicity and profile lately!
     • Dennis Frank 4.4.1

       29 September 2023 at 4:41 pm

       Fair enough. I got no problem with TPM but can't count the GP as credible due to the censorship they did on a poor old feminist three years ago. Free speech is part of the ethos of the Greens – always has been. As a member of the GP at the time I got the verdict by email so I know the facts of the case. Totally fos: dumb buggers blew their credibility out of the water. Yet I had to keep quiet about it onsite here.
       • weka 4.4.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 5:53 pm

         Yet I had to keep quiet about it onsite here.

         Looks to me like your antipathy for the Greens is clouding your judgement and perception (that's ironic).

         We've had conversations here about what the Greens did to Jill, including ones you were involved with.

         https://thestandard.org.nz/search/jill+abigail/?search_comments=true&search_sortby=date

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-06-08-2020/#comment-1737686
         • Dennis Frank 4.4.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 6:37 pm

           Subsequently, that's true. Because I was a party member, I was under a moral obligation to keep quiet at the time. Team psychology. If I had reported it then I would have damaged the political reputation of my team.

           I still have not reported the actual text of that email, nor have I disclosed it to any friends or ex-partners privately. I did describe the overall situation due to having to let them know why I intended to jump ship. Instead, I waited out the term of my annual membership and didn't renew and ignored all the reminders. As part of the feedback process they organised, I had given them my analysis of the ethics involved, so they are knowingly guilty of their breach.

           I haven't even gone into my Greens sub-folder to re-examine their bullshit litany of feeble excuses. I still feel real bad about James getting roped into that but I know how leftists do things having been through it all before back in '94. That one involved actual deceit and apparently deliberate lying to the party conference about the agenda (a leading female activist) which I was formally responsible for due to being convenor of the SOC.

           I am, in principle, willing to expose their lack of credibility via publishing the proof ( re both moral lapses) but continue to hope it won't necessary! I did get a formal apology for the first one (declared to the conference by the executive the following year, I was told by an insider friend who attended) & it's ancient history now. Re the second, the woman victimised was 80 three years ago and may be dead now. There was also a secondary victim: the editor (also female) who was forced to resign. The dim-witted morons do really need to get real about this sort of thing but I'm retired & not directly involved so feel no compulsion to alert them to their moral failings…
5. Ad 5

   29 September 2023 at 9:16 am

   While it's great that the Commerce Commission finds its voice 3 days before voting on whether the Warehouse gets to sell Weetbix, on a poll of 1000 people, the vast majority want to see company super-profits taxed far harder.

   "Asked if large companies should pay extra taxes on “unusually large profits”, 78% of respondents said yes. Just 13% of people disagreed with a windfall profits tax, with the remaining 9% unsure.

   A smaller majority also supported some sort of capital gains tax. Asked if income from shares and property investments should be taxed like income, 62% said yes."

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979367/new-survey-shows-widespread-support-for-taxes-on-capital-gains-and-windfall-profits

   Nearly same support for taxing property and share sale profits.

   Have the Labour focus groups been out of focus?
   • newsense 5.1

     29 September 2023 at 9:32 am

     It does make you think that Winston wasn’t half the handbrake PM Hipkins and Dame Jacinda were.

     And that if they hadn’t been judged on their ability to respond and deal with some severe crisises, their on-going failure to deal with the structural issues in NZ society would have seen them judged much more harshly and much earlier by both the electorate and by history.
     • Ad 5.1.1

       29 September 2023 at 9:41 am

       Well that's the foolishness of trying to judge political party performance by their policies.

       Most of political performance is dealing what fate throws at you.

       That's been the case since a series of them including:
       – 1997 Asian Financial Crisis,
       – 2001 consequence for NZ of 9/11,
       – 2008-9 Global Financial Crisis,
       – 2010-11 Christchurch earthquakes,
       – 2010 Pike River Disaster,
       – 2011 Rena Disaster,
       – 2018 Christchurch terror attacks,
       – 2019 White Island disaster,
       – 2020-21 COVID outbreak,
       – 2022 inflation and supply chain consequences of Russian invasion of Ukraine
       – 2023 Gabrielle and other storm disasters …

       … and that's what happens to transformational policy no matter who is in government.
       • Bearded Git 5.1.1.1

         29 September 2023 at 3:07 pm

         It's a matter of degree in your list Ad, which is highly misleading.

         At Pike River and White Island a few people got killed. The first Global Pandemic for several generations, Covid, has officially killed almost 7 million people (probably over 10 million) and many elements of the international economy ground to a halt for over two years and it is still recovering.

         That is what this government has had to cope with. It handled Covid brilliantly-the economy still functioned well because we shut the borders, and its approach saved the lives of at least 11,500 kiwis compared with the UK deaths/million.

         https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

         I travelled for 5 weeks in WA recently. It was illuminating to talk to the locals who were just about the only other place in the world to successfully close their borders to Covid. They said it was great-the mines kept operating, the cafes were humming and they all bought 4wd’s and went camping in WA.
         • Ad 5.1.1.1.1

           29 September 2023 at 4:02 pm

           Crikey. Pike River itself was a Royal Commission, a full new Ministership and ministry, a substantial Crown Law and Police headache, and massive legislative change that affected over 60,000 construction workers and changed direct liabilities for every single company director.

           Minimise if you like but it was no small matter for the government.
     • Anne 5.1.2

       29 September 2023 at 10:39 am

       I beg to differ there newsense @ 5.1

       If "Dame Jacinda" had announced a CGT tax last year, NACT and the tabloid media would have gone into overdrive spreading misinformation in the same way they have over three waters and co-governance. Most of those people who are now claiming they would like to see such a tax would have been squealing their heads off and wishing a pox on Labour's house. The same outcome would have occurred if Hipkins had announced earlier this year they would introduce a wealth tax.

       It has been drummed into the minds of the populace at large that Labour = BAD. National = GOOD. The truth is the opposite, but a large portion of voters fall for the line time and again.
       • newsense 5.1.2.1

         29 September 2023 at 5:09 pm

         So National would oppose it so we should never try?

         It definitely killed it as a political issue. Social justice lost.

         3 waters is a classic of a failure to sell highly needed legislation.

         A wealth tax is simpler to understand, especially after the way the government covid handouts transferred wealth up the ladder outrageously.

         In fact Luxon’s landlord free pass is projected to make him millions better off.

         Again the fact that Winston is calling for a tax free threshold and that the best Labour can counter with is GST off fruit and veges is poor.

         Hipkins has made a number of calls which align with his philosophy, rather than the focus groups.

         And geez, did Ad just compare Pike River to the pandemic response?

         I mean…there’s a reason why the left is a bit f-d top to bottom.

         The government’s response literally transferred wealth up the ladder. That is transformational class warfare…
   • Dennis Frank 5.2

     29 September 2023 at 9:41 am

     You're onto it. I was pondering the merit of sending in this: "Hipkins oughta do a one-liner in his concession speech: Bugger the focus groups!" Decided it would be uncool at this point in the campaign…
   • Sanctuary 5.3

     29 September 2023 at 12:42 pm

     Warehouse: "Let's sell Weetbix with a fair markup".

     Foodstuffs/Woolworths: "Hey! Sanitarium! The Warehouse is seeling Weetbix $2 a box cheaper! It isn't fair, it makes us look bad wah wah wah!"

     Sanitarium "That'll never do, no more Weetbix for you the Warehouse!"
     • SPC 5.3.1

       29 September 2023 at 12:48 pm

       Sanitarium is inferring it might be an inability to supply sufficient product to all outlets – but say … it's not policy to talk about production levels and supply issues.
6. newsense 6

   29 September 2023 at 9:21 am

   So to summarise: CEOs are partisan twits who should be ignored by Labour.
   To watch the shit eating Labour is going through only to see an uncosted, unfunded, inflationary plan called ‘pretty good’ by CEOs makes me think – fuck governing for them, be a goddam Labour Party! However neoliberal you play it, they just want the Nats.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/mood-of-the-boardroom-chief-executives-rank-government-ministers-and-national-leaders/7WYTXYS44VDUBJE77XYN7MF5YU/
   • AB 6.1

     29 September 2023 at 9:41 am

     Well – yes. They are mostly quite intelligent twits though. In any case – you describe nicely where the "third way" goes to die.
7. Ad 7

   29 September 2023 at 11:07 am

   Aucklanders are in for 13% rate rises and 20% water charge rises, under Mayor Wayne Brown.

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/auckland-council-pencils-in-sky-high-rates-and-water-bills-for-next-year/FCECF6LY6ZHWRJRV3UES2XLXSU/

   Hard to see how a Mayor Collins would have been worse than this.

   Obviously a lot of people are going to suffer, and gain nothing in service improvements for paying more money to Council. In fact more likely services get worse.
   • SPC 7.1

     29 September 2023 at 11:42 am

     Wayne Brown wants city independence, but is going to lose the regional fuel money under any National government (and cover the time till congestion charging is allowed) and without Labour's three waters taking the water debt off their books, they are close to the debt cap – so up go the rates.

     He may be secretly hoping for Labour to win.

     Half the workers are only getting $10 a week tax cuts and facing higher water charging (as well as food and rents). The other half might be getting $25 but face the rates and water cost rise.

     Many would be better under Labour coz of the likelihood of wage increases MW or under FPA industry awards. And maybe Greens 3% pa rent caps.

     Auckland is going to be sad under any NACT government – even worse than Wellington (there job cults).

     One has to wonder about the economic intelligence of workers that think they will do better under National.

     But then no one said that racists were smart, look at the lot (LOUD FAT and UGLY) with red MAGA caps.
   • AB 7.2

     29 September 2023 at 3:24 pm

     Increasing rates will be permanent as the cost of future climate change damage is added on to the cost of making up for past neglect (as in this case). This might make home ownership too operationally expensive for many, while also depressing the capital value of houses. That's a recipe for a further contraction of home ownership and gleeful buy ups of relatively cheap houses by mega landlords. Climate change has so many potential downsides it's frankly horrifying.
8. PsyclingLeft.Always 8

   29 September 2023 at 11:08 am

   Climate Change…..Affects all.

   Greymouth rates have jumped up to the shock of some households, who face an increase of 100 percent.

   Costs of the new Greymouth Floodwall contributed to the hike

   Risk and assurance committee chairman Frank Dooley acknowledged people might be shocked at the massive increase on their annual bill.

   "What people will do is see the bottom line and compare it with what they paid last year and say 'bloody hell'. I understand that," Dooley said.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/ldr/498969/greymouth-resident-shocked-at-100-percent-rates-hike

   Knowing a bit of the history regarding the West Coast..and Climate Change ….and IMO one of the main Climate Deniers : Alan Birchfield.

   I was kinda gobsmacked to read this !

   Dooley believes costs related to Birchfield's actions while he was chair are much higher than $40,000.

   In a letter published in The News soon after last month's extraordinary meeting, Dooley said "three recent employment settlements, including legal and investigation fees, have cost ratepayers over $620,000…"

   The figure did not include costs associated with recruiting replacements, Dooley's letter said.

   "As a new councillor, I had a massive concern about the culture inherited from the previous council chaired by councillor Birchfield and the ongoing costs to ratepayers of inappropriate actions or failures of the then chair.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/498323/west-coast-councillor-allan-birchfield-s-spat-costs-ratepayers-40-000

   Alan Birchfield Climate Denier.."maybe" cost over $ 620,000. I wonder if the ratepayers care? I fucking would !
   • Ad 8.1

     29 September 2023 at 11:22 am

     +100
   • Dennis Frank 8.2

     29 September 2023 at 11:36 am

     Excellent reporting & I bet the shit hit the fan locally/regionally once the mental connection became evident. Mind you, coasters being rather slow on the uptake, could still be in the pipeline slowly moving towards consciousness.

     Next govt has to pull finger re storm damage prevention design aka resilience strategy. Opinion leaders down there ought to be pointing that out in their advice re campaign relevance. Maybe they already are…
   • weka 8.3

     29 September 2023 at 11:48 am

     see this is irony. Anti-green culture on the coast for decades has meant the voting in of climate denier councillors and mayors. Now the coast is one of the first places to be forced to adapt by extreme weather events.

     Let's see how many climate deniers get voted in next time. 2023 general election voting patterns should say something too. Some people are slow to change.
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 8.3.1

       29 September 2023 at 12:17 pm

       I have great Respect for Green people who live on the Coast. Having had "some" attacks on me for my Green..(Greenie.. as an insult.. !) and Left (are you a commie..! ) viewpoint in the Otago area…I can but imagine what it must be like…

       “There’s an awful lot of conservationists here that tend to keep their head down because the debates get so unpleasant and vociferous particularly when it gets mixed up with the racism stuff then it gets pretty toxic.”

       Morfett says the West Coast suffers from “a real failure in leadership”.

       “Many of our local and regional politicians are so wedded to business as usual… They are fearful of the change and looking for someone to kick and so-called greenies get the blame for the way the world is going.”

       In 2019, the West Coast Regional Council refused to support the Zero Carbon Bill until the science behind human-caused climate change was proven.

       The motion was passed with only two votes against from goldminer Brett Cummings and chairman Allan Birchfield who made comments denying carbon dioxide’s effect on the climate at the meeting.

       He told Stuff it was not possible to find a compromise with “green groups” like Forest & Bird.

       “They are fanatics. You can't negotiate with them. It’s like trying to negotiate with terrorists. They have been practising genocide on the Coast for the last 30 or 40 years. So many people have had to leave.

       https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/126028535/west-coasters-tackle-climate-change-and-the-promining-status-quo

       And maybe Alan Birchfield..as a dinosaur (equivalent brain size?) and his type..are slowly becoming extinct ? I however, do fear a NActFirst Govt would re-gene them. Fight back the Left !
9. Dennis Frank 9

   29 September 2023 at 12:12 pm

   So here's the Nat master-plan:

   "National's disciplined approach results in a forecast $3.4 billion reduction in debt compared to Labour in 2027/28." She said under National, a $2.9b surplus is forecast for 2026/27 which was "$0.8b higher than Labour".

   "We have provided for significant buffers, with $9.9b of unallocated operating spending to ensure we can respond to cost pressures and changing circumstances."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499024/election-2023-national-party-fiscal-plan-promises-lower-taxes-disciplined-government-spending

   How simple, that political logic: `our election bribe's bigger than yours, na na na nah na'.
   • SPC 9.1

     29 September 2023 at 12:41 pm

     One way it would save money is to change the way benefits are calculated, returning to indexing benefits to inflation rather than wages, saving $2b over the forecast period.

     Most of the reduction in debt ($3.4b) comes from less money going to those on benefits.

     5. Deliver tax relief for hard-working Kiwis – National will provide tax relief up to $250 a fortnight for an average-income family with young children in childcare.

     The $250 figure includes $150 only available to those with children under 5 (and only if they spend more money than that on child care – child under 3 or a lot of hours 3-5).

     And Labour's free hours care for those 2-3 is worth as much (an extension of the 3-5 free hours to 2 to 5).

     The number of families involved is probably about an 8th (children aged 5-10, 10-15 15-20 etc 3/4) at most – given about an 8th have a FT parent till the child is 2 and are then PT workers (around the free child care hours).
     • AB 9.1.1

       29 September 2023 at 3:30 pm

       So redistribute wealth upwards from the bottom to the "squeezed middle" ?

       Or in expanded form: "redistribute wealth upwards from everyone at the bottom including those with young kids, to the "squeezed middle" with young kids?
   • SPC 9.2

     29 September 2023 at 12:44 pm

     And all based on the presumption that their tax policy is sound …
10. Tricledrown 10

    29 September 2023 at 12:54 pm

    Rob the poor to give the well off property hoarders who made billions over the pandemic while the squeezed middle and poor are doing it hard very hard. Nationals tax cuts only benefit the wealthy while dumping that amount of money into the property market will force house prices even higher.
11. logie97 11

    29 September 2023 at 1:09 pm

    Law and order.

    Does anyone have access to National Party manifesto/election commitments over the last 70 years regarding their intentions to get tough on/stamp out crime? And does anyone have the figures to show that, with all their time occupying the government benches, just what they achieved? I suspect zilch – but it captures the emotions every election.

    I think I have read here before that the "gang problem" might rapidly decline if they were to lose their source of income – drug dealing. Perhaps if possession and use of all drugs was decriminalised two issues could be tackled and solved very readily.
12. Dennis Frank 12

    29 September 2023 at 1:21 pm

    Tova investigates candidates who like to discriminate against minority groups:

    In The Post, Andrea Vance revealed that Angelo had liked social media posts which used offensive homophobic slurs targeting the LGBTQ+ community and rainbow MPs including one which called Green MP Chloe Swarbrick a “man-hating dyke”. Seymour told Tova, Swarbrick is a quality human being, “she’s someone I've enjoyed a long relationship with, despite considerable philosophical differences, so I don't agree with that sentiment.”

    Pushed on why he then allows support of those sentiments from those within his party, Seymour said he doesn’t and defended Angelo, “I think your connection between liking a tweet and believing that and having that as a core belief is tenuous at best.”

    Strikes me Seymour's reasoning here is likewise "tenuous at best.” Then we got this from the other rightist aspiring tail-wagger party:

    Seymour wasn’t the only MP defending questionable party candidates on Tova, NZ First’s deputy leader-apparent Shane Jones was asked about Kirsten Murfitt, number 11 on NZ First’s list.

    Stuff’s Charlie Mitchell revealed that Murfitt, under the pseudonym Polly, once shared a post suggesting those who took the “death-shots” are “technically no longer ‘human’”. Another post suggested visiting a cemetery to verify whether “dead vaxxers” emit Bluetooth signals.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300979384/tova-podcast-act-and-nz-first-defend-conspiratorial-candidates

    Imagine NZF candidates cruising collaboratively around cemeteries with bluetooth detectors, then wonder if Winston would agree it's public-spirited behaviour…
    • Peter 12.1

      29 September 2023 at 2:30 pm

      If the great United States can have the likes of Lauren Boebert and Marjorie Taylor Greene in government there’s plenty of scope for us to have a lunatic or two.
    • AB 12.2

      29 September 2023 at 3:41 pm

      Seymour is saying that political candidates can unreflectively blurt whatever they like and nobody should care or read anything into it – ever. I'm all for forgiving occasional outbreaks of stupidity from ordinary citizens – but patterns of it from candidates for high public office? In any case, it's a standard that everyone should remember and hold Seymour to in future.
      • Tricledrown 12.2.1

        29 September 2023 at 4:42 pm

        Seymour is the first one to pour on the criticism if any Labour,Green or TPM office holder always saying they should resign immediatly its time for Seymour to live up to his own standard.
13. Kat 13

    29 September 2023 at 1:45 pm

    Is Mathew Hooton asking National voters to party vote the Greens……….or anyone else not wanting Luxon to have to speed dial Winston………

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/election-2023-national-plus-the-greens-a-teal-deal-is-a-real-possibility-matthew-hooton/QXZIUJNYERAWJALJPV3AJT57XM/

    Blue boat sinking….abandon ship……wait wait…..look look over there…..a green straw…..
    • AB 13.1

      29 September 2023 at 3:51 pm

      The Machiavellian mind is a mystery. Who knows what Hooton is up to except Hooton himself – and maybe not even him. I think he wants to:

      • carve off more Nat votes to ACT by frightening libertarian, far-right voters into thinking that Luxon would do that and has to be stopped
      • demotivate young people from voting Green and make them give up and not vote
      • rekindle the old smear that the Greens are not a 'proper' environmental party just radical socialists/communists who will send us all to the woke gulag
      • mess with everyone's heads for the hell of it.
    • bwaghorn 13.2

      29 September 2023 at 3:53 pm

      At 20% the greens become contenders, it'll teach labour for being gutless on reform and for taking the greens for granted.

      And and and wipe out Winston and weaken act back to lap dog status
14. PsyclingLeft.Always 14

    29 September 2023 at 1:53 pm

    Well..this is pretty much where they are at…

    'I don't want to form government with NZ First': Nicola Willis

    “This is a really serious answer, and I think the people in this room need to hear it: I don’t want to go into Government with NZ First,” Willis said.

    On that…

    However, the odds of that are not looking good. The Herald’s poll of polls reckons National and Act have just a 39 per cent chance of getting over the line without NZ First’s help.

    https://www.odt.co.nz/news/national/i-dont-want-form-government-nz-first-nicola-willis

    Its definitely not looking quite so fine for NAct ..now!

    NZ First….the spare party. That nobody wants. Cmon Labour Green Te Pati Maori !
    • Bearded Git 14.1

      29 September 2023 at 3:39 pm

      I still think that Winston has a problem this election. While the rolling polls may be showing him creeping over the 5%, but not by much, many wavering voters of the Right will plump for National not NZF because he made Jacinda PM. They hated this with a vengeance. At the same time nobody with any brain cells on the Left will vote for NZF because they know that if he gets 5% he will put National in power.

      In previous elections these two factors haven't existed to anything like the same degree.
      • bwaghorn 14.1.1

        29 September 2023 at 3:51 pm

        I was wavering yesterday due to the handbrake on nact theory then I read some of Winston's fb post last night, fucker has jumped the shark in his pursuit of staying relevant, no more happy days for him hopefully.!
        • Roy Cartland 14.1.1.1

          29 September 2023 at 5:21 pm

          Best example?
          • bwaghorn 14.1.1.1.1

            29 September 2023 at 5:45 pm

            The only time I've tried to link to fb here it appeared to leave the door open to my acc, now I realize I'm pretty unimportant in the scheme of things but wasn't keen on doxxing myself.

            Was nutty shit about labour,
        • Bearded Git 14.1.1.2

          30 September 2023 at 7:58 am

          Well done bwag….I agree that handbrake theory doesn't really work when NZF have moved into the crazy part of the political spectrum.
      • PsyclingLeft.Always 14.1.2

        29 September 2023 at 6:55 pm

        Its still there ..to win for the Left. !
15. PsyclingLeft.Always 15

    29 September 2023 at 2:24 pm

    It could get dangerous for Politicians in the Election run up. Be careful out there… esp we on the Left ! Angela Roberts : Labour

    A Labour candidate says she was slapped by an aggressive member of the public while at a local election debate this week.

    Following the debate, Roberts said she was having a discussion with a "tall man" about education policy and other things when "aggressive finger pointing started".

    "Then things took a turn for the worse," she said.

    "He grabbed my shoulders and shook me in order to emphasise the point he was making. Then he slapped my cheeks with both hands.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499039/completely-unacceptable-labour-candidate-angela-roberts-slapped-following-political-debate

    WTAF !

    and.. while I dont esp like Nat Barbara Kuriger ..good on her for helping Angela afterwards.
    • Patricia Bremner 15.1

      29 September 2023 at 3:54 pm

      Where was security? Why wasn't that reported to the Police?

      That is a double assault. Shake, then slap on both cheeks!! wow just wow.

      Who was that guy.?. someone must know.. report him.

      How would you feel if that was your G-mother// mother /daughter/friend?
      • PsyclingLeft.Always 15.1.1

        29 September 2023 at 6:53 pm

        Yea, I am appalled by it. And yep, i think Politicians…(heads up to Left and supporters !) should be aware…and take care.

        As to, at that event….absolutely someone must know who that bully creep was.
    • Mike the Lefty 15.2

      30 September 2023 at 7:50 am

      I suppose we take it for granted that our political candidates are more or less safe on the campaign hustings and it is a bit of shock when this happens.]

      I guess we should give thanks that we aren't like India where no election has ever happened without at least one candidate being murdered, plus countless more assaults.

      Co-incidentally, yesterday I was chatting to an antiques shop owner in Featherston and we were discussing what she termed "a nasty element to this election". I agreed that there is an unpleasant undercurrent to this election, to the likes I have not seen before.
      • PsyclingLeft.Always 15.2.1

        30 September 2023 at 8:43 am

        James Shaw Green Co leader, was previously attacked by a conspiracy fkwit…knocked down…left with a broken eye socket.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/green-party-co-leader-james-shaw-recalls-moment-he-was-attacked/G4CAJ7CRJLGCN3BYW4AHB22VM4/?c_id=1&objectid=12260918

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/parliament-protester-paul-harris-who-once-attacked-james-shaw-earns-new-conviction/7BJFUJJZTZDY3HJ3HTRTOR3QLI/

        IMO Left Politicians…need to be extra aware, and …take care.
16. Peter 16

    29 September 2023 at 4:40 pm

    Story of the day for me:

    'Life drawing class ejected from community centre after nude model mishap during fire drill.'

    There are a hundred sides to every story and we'll take the version we want from this one I suppose.

    There may have been issues before which has seen a 'last straw' situation arise. The group may have had countless warnings and hadn't abided by necessary rulings – hadn't played ball. Arty farty independent types and all.

    Or some jumped up little twerp was making their mark on the world.

    Creative minds will go to work no doubt and when the group finds a new venue the new title might be something like 'Get an Effing Life Life Class.'

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