I just found this link to an interview with Derrick Jensen. Environmentalist, "old growth leftie", who is surprised as to what got him cancelled. Writing about blowing up dams, no-one cared but question modern queer theory you get cancelled. HT Dark Waters on Daily Blog.
It is an hour and a half and does have some good insights.
Interesting move for Jensen to be interviewed by Southern.
Jensen's A Language Older Than Words was hugely influential on my deep green politics back in the day. I hung out on one of his forums for a while, in this Salmon/blow up dams years.
Him and the Deep Greens got absolute shit for their defence of material reality and sex based rights. Tbf they were pretty rude about transwomen, but as we all eventually learn, being kind isn't a successful strategy.
you can follow the breadcrumbs from that. Jensen knows what he is doing here but many of the hard core identitarians won't get past the mention of paedophilia and queer theory 🤷♀️ The value is for the people trying to figure out what tf is going on in this whole thing.
He's talking about the origins of QT as a way of demonstrating the connections between QT and child sexual abuse. It's not that all of QT is paedophiliac, it's that the culture of QT is centred in highly valuing transgression and this undermines child safeguarding, allowing people who want child sex to be legal/tolerated to find some power.
He names Focault, Gayle Rubin, Pat Califia, Judith Butler, all people highly influential in QT. Butler is contemporary, and recently released a book. She is a very influential academic.
Most people who call themselves queer wouldn't know who most of those people are. But the reason it's such a problem now is because No Debate means no critique can be made publicly without accusations of transphobia or homophobia.
You can see the disconnect in the video. When show evidence of child sexual abuse apologia, instead of engage with the evidence and testing its robustness, the QT students are hurling accusations that in today's world are often damaging.
It's the same dynamic as why it took a 4 year independent medical system review to look at child and youth gender transition in the UK. Because the people who were raising concerns were shut down and the rest of the people who would otherwise have looked at the safeguarding issues were too scared to. People lost their jobs, marriages, careers, friends over this.
It's also finds expression in Rainbow culture. Pride was originally an adult celebration of adult homosexuality. Now it's trying to be family friendly, which means you have men exhibiting their sexual fetishes in public with children. Again, when people try to point this out, there is denial and ostracisation.
And because the progressive voices have been so successfully shut down, the debate is now terribly skewed to the right. Hence Brian Tamaki and co painting of rainbow crossings, the liberal left up in arms about that, and you and I are talking in yesterdays DR instead of there being front page posts all week about the Cass Review, Giggle v Tickle, and some dude in the North America who has just won a legal court case that will mean he can use public health services to have a neovagina created while retaining his penis. Because that's his gender identity.
That phenomena of strange bedfellows (Southern, Peterson, Tamaki) is rendered all the more stark with the lack of natural allies from the progressive "left". (The "Punching down" and pedancy around phrasing/wordgames crowd).
Jensen's reference to old growth lefty resonates, but less from a wild nature lens more from a worker/class standpoint.
“To me, the whole complaint about cancel culture is a lot of men — especially straight men — who are just pissed that they can’t say things any more, y’know?” Sykes explained, “And it’s not like you can’t say these things. You can say them, but now there’s just consequences.” Sykes continued, "That’s why I say I can’t get canceled. Only God can say: ‘All right, Wanda, that’s enough.’”
‘Two years to save the world’: UN climate chief calls for faster action and more finance [11 April 2024]
Climate Analytics CEO Bill Hare said Stiell was “listening to the science” – namely that global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade to meet the Paris climate accord's ambition of capping global temperature increases to 1.5 degrees Celsius.
“Governments are nowhere near that, and disastrously many are still supporting new fossil fuel development,” Hare said.
Reversing oil and gas ban brazen and utterly reckless [5 March 2024]
“This Government is recklessly and shamelessly pouring oil and gas on the fire of the climate crisis,” says the co-leader of the Green Party, James Shaw.
“The Prime Minister has talked about “tough choices” recently. Well, the choices they are making include reopening New Zealand waters to the fossil fuel industry instead of confronting the climate crisis with the urgency it demands.
James Shaw, telling it like it actually is – Parliament's loss
Dig this [Richard Harman, Politik, 16 Feb 2024]
“In 2040, if I [Shane Jones] have anything to do with it, there will be a flourishing mining sector employing all my nephews who are currently going to the figurative Kalgoolies of the world, and I will have served my penance for having acquiesced in the closure of oil and gas off the coast of Taranaki.”
“Global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade” – that’s 2030, Shane.
Saunders' nit-picking about investment in the safety and well being of workers and the public personifies the right's total disregard for anything other than their own bottom dollar. Fuck ém.
5,000 years of suppressing women because we embody nature and here humans are about to kill nature itself.
It's not a coincidence that transhumanism is arising at the same time as a full assault on women's rights at the same time as we all ignore impending collapse of biosphere.
The only way out is via embodiment, of ourselves and nature, and we cannot do that without women, from whom we all come.
– weka was participating in a conversation with others putting her own thoughts down;
– Drowsy M Kram was initiating one with their style of posting links to mostly other people's reckons – (which is fine, just not usually good at creating momentum);
– your comment (as it stands) with no editorial – reads as an admonishment to weka for (ironically) talking about women's right's – because Drowsy M Kram's comment is standing there all lonely without someone looking after it.
I'm pointing this out because it is Sunday morning and I'm feeling charitable and thinking perhaps you ARE completely unaware of how your comment can be read by others.
I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis. He's not wrong, apart for his idea that women's sex based rights are fringe and not intrinsically linked to the climate crisis
He will probably equivocate now about my use of the term fringe instead of addressing the substantive points, but I thought it was worth saying how I saw it.
"I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis."
Not really. "Two years to save the world" did catch my eye though. The subject of women's sex based rights does come up a lot on The Standard these days. I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
Just clearing out my bookmarks, and this is good link to Alasdair Gunn from Genspect, talking about the treatment of chidren. (Link provides transcript, which I prefer to watching the video)
Thanks so much for all your work and input into the major (definitely NOT fringe) issue of maintaining and protecting women's hard fought for rights – here on TS and elsewhere. As for your patience with some commenters (RG in particular) on this subject, I certainly could not maintain my composure as you do … !!!
UPDATE – see you found him, but still want to pass on my thanks.
Um..!…the link Davis recommends speaks out against 'advocates and activists' campaigning on this issue…when there is little/no quality evidence…
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
And seemingly agrees with BMJ…that this report should be the stimulus for further research…
Have you read the BMJ piece..?
[I’ve addressed your very poorly framed points below. I have some sympathy for people trying to get up to speed with what is a complex situation. But this is a major medical scandal where multiple children have been damaged for life. I have zero tolerance for lies and propaganda. From now on, if you want to comment on the Cass report or related issues, you will have to do the following every time
use copy and pasted quotes in ” “, so we know what you are referring to
I've done little for five days but read about the Cass report, and the BMJ piece was one of the first.
Her stated ambition is to ensure that those experiencing gender dysphoria receive a high standard of care. This will be disputed, of course, by people and lobbying groups angered by her recommendations, but it is a theme running through the review.
The BMJ editor is talking about genderist/pro-trans umbrella NGOs and TRAs there.
The lack of quality evidence refers to the fact that GIDS and other clinics have been giving puberty blockers and later cross sex hormones and surgeries on kids and young people without adequate medical science to base those treatments on.
That's the scandal Phil, and it's a major part of the Cass Reviews final report. You are woefully under-informed here.
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
Bullshit. Hilary Cass is a professional. She worked with a university. The review was overseen by medical professionals.
What the BMJ is referring to is the fact that nearly all the adult gender clinics in the UK refused to share data with Cass so that she could look at the evidence for whether children treated with affirmation only were being helped existed.
Those clinics have now been told to release teh information by the government, and there is going to be a similar kind of review into the adult clinics as the child ones.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Maybe you should take that up with BMj/Pete davis.?…I am just passing their words on..
And I read the admonition to 'activists and advocates' re paucity of reliable evidence to campaign on..
..to be also addressed to the antis such as yourself..
Me..?…I don't have enough evidence to have any certainty on this issue..
And it would seem that applies to pretty much anyone pontificating one way or the other…
And I was quite amused by you and veuto posting something that wasn't what you thought..and that actually tells you to taiho…and to wait for some real/credible evidence.
What is your reaction to that admonition/advice..?
the only reason you're not getting a ban right now is because I have to go out. Read the mod note and respond, you only get one chance at this.
I am telling you you are wrong about Davis' tweet and the BMJ editorial. I'm saying that as someone who has been following this debate closely for 7 years and has been reading a huge amount of analysis in the past 5 days. You simply have the completely wrong end of the stick here.
What I have understood..is that for me not to be banned here..I cannot comment on any story weka has written/is close to ..
And as a general rule of thumb…I should not interact with weka..if at all possible..
You have completely misunderstood the BMJ editorial. I’m not explaining it to you because you’re not listening. The conditions of commenting are in the original mod note. Go and sort your head out and reread it, it’s clear.
I have read and reread the BMJ & Peter Davis' X (Twitter) comment. I cannot work out how Philip Ure has read what he has into it.
Peter Davis makes a couple of comments based on the BMJ which in turn has some quotes from the Cass Report. X (Twitter) imposes character limits hence the shortened writing
This is the complete Tweet from Davis
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine". Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions. Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine" This is a quote from the title of the BMJ article
"Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions." Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ. The word in quotes come from the BMJ
'Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass' Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ.
How anyone could read this and think that BMJ did not support the Cass review I do not know.
The BMJ picks up on a crticism of the Cass Report about setting too high a bar with research standards then states
'the reality is different: studies in gender medicine fall woefully short in terms of methodological rigour; the methodological bar for gender medicine studies was set too low, generating research findings that are therefore hard to interpret.' Thus supporting that she has been sparingly, relatively, with the links to research as there is not much that reaches the standards a researcher would expect to see.
and
Yet this inconclusive and unacceptable evidence base was used to inform influential clinical guidelines, such as those of the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which themselves were cascaded into the development of subsequent guidelines internationally
and
A spiralling interventionist approach, in the context of an evidence void, amounted to overmedicalising care for vulnerable young people. A too narrow focus on gender dysphoria, says Cass, neglected other presenting features and failed to provide a holistic model of care.
and
Cass’s review is independent and listened to people with lived experience. Without doubt, the advocacy and clinical practice for medical treatment of gender dysphoria had moved ahead of the evidence—a recipe for harm.
and finally
'People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
"The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
Somehow, you missed the preceding sentences in that closing paragraph:
"People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. "
I am someone who believes respect needs to be earned. But sometimes it is also lost.
"I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?"
Just because I personally find you boorish, doesn't mean I am bored, or that I will ignore your comments if I consider them a misdirection.
This is a public discussion platform, and the thread is discussing a major medical scandal that is becoming harder to deny.
I comment – sometimes – because I believe there are some who seek to diminish the necessary attention and consideration on this issue – and whose efforts in that direction make it much harder to rectify and avoid further unnecessary harm.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Double bad in my books Weka.
First from the Hippocratic oath that all Drs take
Ensuring patient safety is at the heart of the Hippocratic Oath: First, Do No Harm
The notion “do no harm” embodies the medical ethics principle of “non-maleficence”, that is to refrain from doing any harm first, before doing any good.
beneficence, non-maleficence, justice and respect for the patient's autonomy
I'm not a Dr but surely the harm from puberty blockers and surgical interventions is/was known. The harm should have been first and foremost in a Dr's mind per Hippocratic oath. Quite apart from the gross known harm ie puberty blockers are not able to be reversed and botched surgical redesigns of sexual organs are well known, these humans acting in an almost God-like capacity really bother me. Sexual response to orgasm can be completely lost on children/adults who have been subject to ‘trans’ ‘work’. And someone decided that this was Ok when that child was pre teen. I don't understand how parents/Drs can do this to anyone.
The second bad is that these Drs were working in the public sector/public sector adjacent and presumably had contracts or other documents plus money from the Govt. Having worked in health when we had a contracting model I know that any group who refused to supply info would
a have had their staff referred to the appropriate professional medical society they belonged to
b had any accreditations pulled from them, leading to
c pausing of funds until a & b had been had been fixed
d our high powered audit team/plus teams from the funder of the general medical services fees (the way Drs are funded) would be there before the records could be 'lost'
e pausing of further funding on an interim basis even before any referrals
Of course these take time.
It may be that the intransigence will serve the Cass Report well in that the Drs are not actually covering themselves with glory in not providing the info. Actually if you read Hannah Barnes book 'Time to Think' you will note that several of those speaking to her (ie former employees) had expressed concern about not recording and not reviewing.
not as an excuse but as context, in the US there is significant culture in medicine around avoiding legal liability by overtreating or treating along specific pathways.
In socialised medicine countries I think this still happens but more along the lines of giving the patient what they want. This is part of why antibiotics have been overprescribed despited doctors knowing the risks. It's a weird contradiction, but in the US it's tied up with the agenda of insurance companies and what they will and won't cover as well.
Add to that, I don't think we can over-estimate the degree to which ideology is a factor here. Lots of theories on why people go along with it in the way they do, but I don't see it definitively explained. We just know it's there.
I've been thinking about this interview with Helen Joyce where she talks about how parents who have transed their kids have to stay ideologically committed to that for the rest of their lives, because they've caused so much harm to their child that they can't never undo.
I wonfder if this is a factor for some medical people too.
I also think that there are doctors in it for the glory. The surgeons in particular who are honing their skills on the genitals and breasts of teenagers. Those ones can get fucked.
It is the children that I really get riled up about.
A girl child I know of had a phase of telling her mother "I a boy, I a boy". From this in the next few years up until now this child was subjected to all sorts of chemical interventions.
This idea, as a child, that you wish to be another thing is common and non worrying to most parents, kids grow out of it or parents/GP undertake watchful waiting.
Puberty for young people is a difficult time. We all know it. Psychologists and child development experts know it. Body changes, hormone fluctuations, social engagement, distancing from family, peer connections all have significant impacts on individuals. Many women will be able to relate how dealing with menstruation and body changes was often a cause for embarrassment or shame. The development of their bodies often attracting unwanted attention or comment – both from strangers and sometimes from previously trusted adults. Men have their own stories of this period. They are significantly different.
Self-exploration and understanding is a major part of that period. Fluidity in presentation, identification and connections is not only expected, but an aid in defining your adult self.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
I hope that many have adopted an identity that required no interventions – and they will be able to walk away unscathed by a need for long-term medical treatment. For others, that have permanent outcomes to deal with, we need to demand high-quality, accessible, ongoing support.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
Going down a path that is non reversible is tragic. It completely in my view blows out the concept of 'first do no harm'. This concept is not try to find the way then check that it is not harmful. That is of sizing up a child as a possibilty for intervention from the time the child walks through the door. It works in a reverse way.
I accept that Drs do have this expectation that they will do something to help us ie prescribe something…so much so that MOH/GPs were on a programme to deter antibiotics use where they were not needed.
You can see how young the girl child I was referring to by the language used 'I a boy, I a boy.' This was not a pre teen but rather perhaps a pre schooler.
This to me is a clear example of what might be behind some of this ideology.
It's those same old ideas / questions that can be asked when you want to find out who might be behind various things (at least to some extent) You can 'follow the money' and / or ask "who benefits?"
In this example the child doesn't benefit, the parents don't benefit (except maybe in their own minds in the short term). The beneficiary here is whoever produces, pushes and distributes the said chemicals, which would be everybody's friend, the pharmaceutical industry.
"The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA) is disappointed to see the number of harmful recommendations made by the NHS-commissioned Cass Review, released yesterday in England. This review ignores the consensus of major medical bodies around the world and lacks relevance in an Aotearoa context."
"The final Cass Review did not include trans or non-binary experts or clinicians experienced in providing gender affirming care in its decision-making, conclusions, or findings. Instead, a number of people involved in the review and the advisory group previously advocated for bans on gender affirming care in the United States, and have promoted non-affirming ‘gender exploratory therapy’, which is considered a conversion practice."
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
In spring 2023 the Review commissioned six support and advocacy organisations to facilitate a series of focus groups with former, current and potential future service users to understand their experiences and to capture their thoughts and ideas about what they need and want from services and how they would want to access them.
The Review worked through host organisations because they were able to provide a safe environment in which participants felt comfortable and confident to speak freely and could be supported before, during and after the sessions.
The brief was:
To facilitate between 15 – 20 focus group sessions (delivered by a range of organisations)
The focus group participants should be people with lived experience, i.e., those who identify as transgender, non-binary, gender fluid and/or young people who have been through a period of gender questioning, ideally, but not exclusively, people who have used NHS gender services, or are likely to use those services in the future.
Each focus group should engage with between 10 – 15 people, in the age range of 14 – 30 years. There will be some topics where parental / family perspectives may be helpful, but the focus is predominantly on the young people themselves.
Each discussion session should last for a minimum of 1 hour.
Host Organisations were asked to:
Work with the Review team to agree the format, focus and key questions for the sessions.
Recruit appropriate participants, in line with the criteria set out above.
Provide support to participants before, during and after the sessions as required.
Facilitate discussions in an open and non-directive way.
Compile and submit to the Cass Review team an accurate and comprehensive written report of the outputs from each focus group, including an anonymised profile of participants – age, expressed gender identity, whether they have accessed GIDs, region that they are resident.
Attend a meeting with the Cass Review team to discuss learning from the sessions.
The Review team set the questions explored through the group sessions. While the support organisations could pose additional questions, it was expected that the topics/questions put forward by the Review team would remain the main focus of discussion.
I'm not putting my trust in any group at this time, weka. Picking sides at this early stage of my learning seems irresponsible to me. I'll keep reading from the various camps and treat each issue with an open mind, as best I can.
you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?
It's not early. We have been talking about this on TS for years, and the debate has been raging internationally for longer. Children have been damaged because of organisations like PATHA. Please go read the Cass review post and inform yourself.
like I said to Phil yesterday, I have some sympathy for people trying to get their head around this complex situation. Hard this late in the game. But at some point the ignorance becomes wilful. You've been in these debates for some time, this isn't an early stage for you either.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
YOU may "have been talking about this on TS for years", but others might like to form their own views in light of the present situation with the release of a report and responses from various agencies appearing on the internet.
Is a case of your way, or the highway?
Or should we just rename The Standard, The Stroppery?
Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?
Perhaps in a philosophical way they are as they can point towards a truth. To do this though we need to know the truth or the least worst way of looking at something.
We need to look at: are these orgs or people that can be trusted?
Trying to get a handle on this is laudable but perhaps late.
As a personal view the lack of a base of knowledge does not seemed to have stopped you from commenting on womens rights/trans views over all the years that these topics have been raised.
Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators.
I would start with the Cass Review, incl the terms of reference, then read and then look up every single footnote. You will then get a view on the sources that this establishment view found relevant and those that it did not. Then look at comentators such as BMJ etc. Once you have the prevailing views then branch out….widening the circle.
Cass set a high bar in not accepting views that did meet her threshhold of what constituted good research procedure-wise.
In doing research as a newcomer we can become confused if we look at commentary before we know what the issues are. It just become like a smorgasboard or a pick & mix. Just a gigantic mush
This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art
"Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?"
I commented "sounded reasonable" – it did, in my opinion.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
I've reserved my judgement in anticipation of more evidence. I reckon that's reasonable.
"Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators."
I'm well aware that this is the view shared here, however, I liken commenting on this issue to other issues, especially those that interest me the most; soil health, for example. If a commenter said something naive about that topic, I'd be pleased enough that they cared to think about it, rather than demand they do their homework. Even if they continued to question the need for a living soil, or whatever, I'd think they were engaging and potentially turning over rocks that might otherwise have disappeared from view. I'm not claiming to do that btw – best to make every nuance of my comment crystal clear for fear of being accused of opacity 🙂
Also (not only but) if a commenter with my interest in lefty issues wasn't able to comment on this particular topic; women's rights/trans, there'd be bugger-all else to talk about, bar WWIII.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
No Robert, I provided the standard TS level of evidence: my explanation, some supporting quotes and a link to back up the claim.
This is where the wilful ignorance bit comes in. If you won't inform yourself even when the information is laid out in front of you, that's one thing. But when you then misrepresent the nature of that information, that is a problem for the rest of us.
You have missed my point. If you actually did know and read the Cass Review in depth you wouldn't actually be ascribing 'reasonableness' to the PATHA link.
As a learner you'd be asking how is it that this group seems not to believe the Cass Review? Seeking guidance that may not have been apparent to you as a learner.
You came out as though it may be a truth or at least 'reasonable' which had you read and inwardly digested Cass you would not have. The review is not that difficult to understand.
A more advanced learner might be carefully reading but probably coming to the Mandy Rice-Davies conclusion
"Well they would say that wouldn't they?'
You haven't commented on how you were able to comment on many of the Women's rights/trans posts here over the years, with no tentativeness or wish for learning, without this background that you are reading in the Cass Review?
You have posited views many, many times that have involved many of us in getting material or expressing views only to find now that in fact actually you hadn't read up, or know the issues. To say it feels like somewhat of a betrayal to have been misled like this is an understatement.
"This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art"
Children then, cannot be artists until they have been taught the rules of art?
Picasso famously described his anguish at having to unlearn his teachings in order to draw like a child again.
You may be interested too, in The Fool card from the tarot deck, and the trickster figure from so many different indigenous cultural story-telling traditions, including and especially our own Māui tiki tiki a Taranga.
Robert I used art as an example to show how this step by step reading/learning goes. I have a degree in fine art and learning art is somewhat of a topic in the art world with some saying you have to be a natural at art to learn art and others saying that art, like any other discipline can reveal itself by step by step learning. Of course there are exceptions of course there are the naive artists.
Naive artists though are few. Talented people who have a possible head start in eye hand coordination are many and can be taught further.
Of more wonder is the story I heard from a teacher who believed children can be taught and recognise what we believe might be advanced concepts. He taught 5-7 year olds how to do perspective, at an adult level with looking at a mathematical approach, including infinity.
He said children knew that they were not drawing how their eyes saw the world. They were able to relate to what was being taught and were joyous at the idea of being able to show walls etc instead of a flat surface.
In general when researching step by step works best…..working out from a known source to wider views, practices.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
I think this indicates that you don't have the knowledge from Cass Review under your belt. If you had you would not be saying phrases like 'one claim from you.' You would have known that what PATHA was saying did not line up with what the Cass Review had said. You might even have been able to utter/think the famous Mandy Rice-Davies phrase 'well they would say that wouldn't they?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
No. If I were merely making a claim I would expect people to scroll on by.
Instead, I spent a five days reading the various commentaries on the Cass report before I put up a whole post. That post includes references that people who want to inform themselves can read.
I also addressed Phil's inane comments specifically because I had done all that reading and knew he didn't know what he was talking about. He was was someone making a casual claim and he was just flat out wrong.
This morning I responded to your own claim of 'sounds reasonable' with,
my considerable experience in reading about the responses to the CR
an explanation of how PATHA are wrong
links to back that up
Others have also provided commentary on this. We are not the ones making 'just one claim'.
I have seen you in conversations like this over time, and it's always the same. You can take any position you like, but you cannot on TS not expect to be criticised for that position.
Call TS whatever you like, but when any regular here puts up highly misleading commentary, there will be pushback, and if they don't acknowledge the mistake, then there is likely to be comment on that too. Stroppery or robust debate, we are one of the few places online that holds a standard of truth. It takes work to do that, which is why some of us take a very dim view of lies and obfuscation on important political topics. If you think I am out of line here, you can look at how lprent deals with such comments on other topics.
If you don't believe me about the CR then make an actual argument backed up by something real, not some useless propaganda talking points from an organisation that itself has been critiqued by Cass and where those talking points have already been roundly criticised.
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to prioritise gender identity data over biological sex across its organisation and consulted with rainbow groups but didn't talk to any women's groups?
The care and concern demonstrated for trans people individually and as a class throughout the documents is evident and to be applauded. What I don’t understand is why this isn’t also being seen as an issue for women. If the intention is to largely replace sex data with gender data, then why have women not been consulted in this given sex is central to a wide range of experiences of being biologically female in NZ society?
In their process of developing changes to the standards, Stats NZ convened an external expert advisory group in 2019 to assist with aspects of the review. There were no women’s groups represented.
that was one of the more risible parts of PATHA's response. The Cass review was for NHS England. It took into account international research, but it's purpose was UK focused.
But imagine if drugs and surgeries in other areas of medicine were being critiqued internationally and a group said, oh that doesn't apply to NZ.
PATHA are sounding a tad pre-emptively defensive there 😉
It’s being explained as an “inadvertent error”. However, National MP David MacLeod’s excuse for failing to disclose $178,000 in donations for his election campaign last year is not necessarily enough to prevent some serious consequences. A Police investigation is now likely, and the result of his non-disclosure could even see ...
The relentless drone coming out of the Prime Minister and his deputy for a million days now has been that the last government was just hosing money all over the show and now at last the grownups are in charge and shutting that drunken sailor stuff down. There is a word ...
Buzz from the Beehive Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed a New Zealand Government plane will head to riot-torn New Caledonia in the next hour in the first in a series of proposed flights to begin bringing New Zealanders home. Today’s flight will carry around 50 passengers with the most ...
Precious declaration saysYours is yours and mine you leave alone nowPrecious declaration saysI believe all hope is dead no longerTick tick tick Boom!Unexploded ordnance. A veritable minefield. A National caucus with a large number of unknowns, candidates who perhaps received little in the way of vetting as the party jumped ...
Rex Ahdar writes – The Rt Hon Winston Peters, Deputy Prime Minister and Minister of Foreign Affairs, likes to trace his political lineage back to the pioneers of parliamentary Maoridom. I will refer to these as the ‘big four’ or better still, the Four Knights. Just as ...
Bryce Edwards writes – Willie Jackson will participate in the prestigious Oxford Union debate on Thursday, following in David Lange’s footsteps. Coincidentally, Jackson has also followed Lange’s footsteps by living in his old home in South Auckland. And like Lange, Jackson might be the sort of loud-mouth scrapper ...
That is the only way to describe an MP "forgetting" to declare $178,000 in donations. The amount of money involved - more than five times the candidate spending cap, and two and a half times the median income - is boggling. How do you just "forget" that amount of money? ...
In this week’s “A View from Afar” podcast Selwyn Manning and spoke about the upcoming US elections and what the possibility of another Trump presidency means for the US role in world affairs. We also spoke about the problems Joe … Continue reading → ...
Hi,Two years ago I briefly featured in Justin Pemberton’s Web of Chaos documentary, which touched on things like QAnon during the pandemic.I mostly prattled on about how intertwined conspiracy narratives are with Evangelical Christian thinking, something Webworm’s explored in the past.(The doc is available on TVNZ+, if you’re not in ...
The Government is leaving the entire construction sector and the community housing sector in limbo. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The Government released the long-awaited Bill English-led review of Kāinga Ora yesterday, but delayed key decisions on its build plan and how to help community housing providers (CHPs) build ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Daisy Simmons Farmers who can’t sleep, worrying they’ll lose everything amid increasing drought. Youth struggling with depression over a future that feels hopeless. Indigenous people grief-stricken over devastated ecosystems. For all these people and more, climate change is taking a clear toll ...
New Zealand’s relationship with China is becoming harder to define, and with that comes a worry that a deteriorating political relationship could spill over into the economic relationship. It is about more than whether New Zealand will join Pillar Two of Aukus, though the Chinese Ambassador, more or less, suggested ...
Been hoping we would see something like this from Sir Geoffrey Palmer. This is excellent.The present Bill goes further than the National Development Act 1979 in stripping away procedures designed to ensure that environmental issues are properly considered. The 1979 approach was not acceptable then and this present approach is ...
He’s Got The Moxie: Only Willie Jackson possesses the credentials to meld together a new Labour message that is, at one and the same moment, staunchly working-class, union-friendly, and which speaks to the hundreds-of-thousands of urban Māori untethered to the neo-tribal capitalist elites of the Iwi Leaders Forum.IT’S ONE OF THE ...
Tree-huggers may well accuse the Government of giving them the fingers, after Energy Minister Simeon Brown announced new measures to protect powerlines from trees, rather than measures to protect trees from powerlines. It can be no coincidence, surely, that this has been announced at the same as Fisheries Minister Shane Jones ...
Willie Jackson will participate in the prestigious Oxford Union debate on Thursday, following in David Lange’s footsteps. Coincidentally, Jackson has also followed Lange’s footsteps by living in his old home in South Auckland. And like Lange, Jackson might be the sort of loud-mouth scrapper who could take over the Labour ...
Barrister Gary Judd KC’s complaint to the Regulatory Review Committee has sparked a fierce debate about the place of tikanga Māori – or Māori customs, values and spiritual beliefs – in the law.Judd opposes the New Zealand Council of Legal Education’s plans to make teaching tikanga compulsory in the legal curriculum.AUT ...
Alwyn Poole writes – In New Zealand we have approximately 460 high schools. The gaps between the schools that produce the best results for students and those at the other end of the spectrum are enormous.In terms of the data for their leavers, the top 30 schools have ...
Bryce Edwards writes – New Zealand First Cabinet Minister Shane Jones has become the best advertisement against the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill. In selling the radical new resource consenting processes, in which ministers can green light any mine, dam, or other major development, Jones seems to be ...
Brian Eastonwrites – The Fast-Track Approvals Bill enables cabinet ministers to circumvent key environmental planning and protection processes for infrastructure projects. Its difficulties have been well canvassed. This column suggests a different way of thinking about the proposal. I am ...
The split opening up in Israel’s “War Cabinet” is not just between PM Benjamin Netanyahu and his long-term rival Benny Gantz. It is actually a three-way split, set in motion by Defence Minister Yoav Gallant. It was Gallant’s open criticism of Netanyahu that finally flushed Gantz out into the open. ...
On Thursday 17 May, the Mayoral Proposal for Auckland’s Long Term Plan 2024-2034 was passed by Auckland Council, 20 to 1. It is set to be formally adopted by the Governing Body at its June 27th meeting. The entire process took 8 hours, with the vast majority of that time ...
Pakanga o muaTukua, ka ngaroPuritia taku ringaNgaro ana te ara ki pae rauThere's a battle aheadMany battles are lostBut you'll never see the end of the roadWhile you're travelling with meLate yesterday morning I headed to Wynyard Quarter to see Marama Davidson and Chlöe Swarbrick give their pre-budget State of ...
Maybe the Prime Minister and his Finance Minister expected the worst, so they mounted a stout defence of the Budget tax cuts to their party faithful at a party conference over the weekend. In turn, they were greeted with applause, which, though it may have been less than wildly enthusiastic, ...
A listing of 34 news and opinion articles we found interesting and shared on social media during the past week: Sun, May 12, 2024 thru Sat, May 18, 2024. Story of the week “The legislation I signed today [will] keep windmills off our beaches, gas in our tanks, and ...
TL;DR: Here’s six links that stood out to me in the last day in Aotearoa’s political economy to 6:06am on Sunday, May 19:Aotearoa-NZ is the seventh worst in the OECD’s homelessness rankings, just behind the United States and just ahead of Australia. BlackRock thinks rate hikes actually worsen inflation because ...
Halfway up a historic tower in York, we are neither up nor down. At the top you will have views of a city steeped in antiquity, made and remade by Romans, Normans, Vikings, Tescos. Below, you will find a retired minister happy to tell you all about this most astonishing ...
Skeptical Science is partnering with Gigafact to produce fact briefs — bite-sized fact checks of trending claims. This fact brief was written by Sue Bin Park in collaboration with members from our Skeptical Science team. You can submit claims you think need checking via the tipline. Does breathing contribute to CO2 ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: KiwiRail’s seemingly endless requests for more money is damning. At one point, KiwiRail assured Robertson when he was the Finance Minister that the worst-case scenario would be an extra $300 million before requesting $1.2 billion a few months later. Not what most people ...
No one knows what it's likeTo be the bad manTo be the sad manBehind blue eyesNo one knows what it's likeTo be hatedTo be fatedTo telling only liesHave you ever wondered what life must be like for Mike Hosking? Seeing things in black and white through blue tinted specs? In ...
Hello! Here comes the Saturday edition of More Than A Feilding, catching you up on the past two week’s editions.Share More Than A FeildingBike bling, London Read more ...
Hi,I think we all made it through another week — congratulations. I’ve been digesting the new Arab Strap record, which is astonishing. In other news, I’m going to be doing a Webworm popup in Auckland, New Zealand on Saturday July 13. I’ll bring a bunch of merch, and some other ...
The Fast-Track Approvals Bill enables cabinet ministers to circumvent key environmental planning and protection processes for infrastructure projects. Its difficulties have been well canvassed. This column suggests a different way of thinking about the proposal. I am going to explore the Bill from the perspective of its proponents with their ...
New Zealand First Cabinet Minister Shane Jones has become the best advertisement against the Government’s Fast Track Approvals Bill. In selling the radical new resource consenting processes, in which ministers can green light any mine, dam, or other major development, Jones seems to be shooting the proposal in the foot. ...
Buzz from the Beehive Associate Education Minister David Seymour is urging the PostPrimary Teachers Association to put learning ahead of ideology. He wants the union leaders to call off their teachers meetings around the country where they hope to muster the strength to undo the government’s plans to establish several ...
What are police for? "Fighting crime" is the obvious answer. If there's a burglary, they should show up and investigate. Ditto if there's a murder or sexual assault. Speeding or drunk or dangerous driving is a crime, so obviously they should respond to that. And obviously, they should respond to ...
Michael Reddell writes – I got curious yesterday about how the Australia/New Zealand real exchange rate had changed over the last decade, and so dug out the data on the changes in the two countries’ CPIs. Over the 10 years from March 2014 to March 2024, New Zealand’s ...
Graham Adams writes that 20 years after the land march, judges are quietly awarding a swathe of coastal rights to iwi. Early this month, an hour-long documentary was released by TVNZ to mark the 20th anniversary of the land-rights march to oppose Helen Clark’s Foreshore and Seabed Act. The account ...
David Farrar writes – The Herald reports: Suspended Green MP Darleen Tana has passed an unpleasant milestone: she has now been absent for as many parliamentary sitting days as she has been present for this year. Tana is on full pay while she is suspended, and will benefit from a ...
Peter Dunne writes – It is no coincidence that two Labour should-have-been MPs are making the most noise about public sector cuts. As assistant general secretary of the Public Service Association, Fleur Fitzsimons has been at the forefront of revealing where the next round of state sector job ...
Bryce Edwards writes – It’s becoming a classic case study for why lobbying deals with politicians need greater scrutiny. Former National Minister Steven Joyce runs a lobbying company with a major client – the University of Waikato. The University desperately wants $300m+ of taxpayer funding to establish a ...
This is one of the (extra) weekly columns on music or movies. Plenty of solid analyses of Possession exist online and most of them – inevitably – contain spoilers. This column is more in the way of a first-timer’s aid to getting your initial bearings. You don’t need to have ...
I am painting in oil, a portrait of a manWho has taken all the heart aches,And all the pain he can stand.I am using all the colors of blue,I have here on my stand.I am painting in oil, a portrait of a man.This has been an interesting week for me. ...
Helen Clark joins the Hoon as a special guest talking whether Aotearoa should join Aukus II, and her views on the fast track legislation and how Luxon and the new Government are performing. File Photo: Lynn GrievesonTL;DR: The podcast above of the weekly ‘hoon’ webinar for subscribers features co-hosts ...
With an election due in less than nine months, Britain’s embattled PM, Rishi Sunak, gave a useful speech earlier this week. He made a substantial case for his government, perhaps as compelling as is possible in the current environment. Quite an achievement. His overall theme was security, first pulling ...
Open access notablesPublicly expressed climate scepticism is greatest in regions with high CO2 emissions, Pearson et al., Climatic Change:We analysed a recently released corpus of climate-related tweets to examine the macro-level factors associated with public declarations of climate change scepticism. Analyses of over 2 million geo-located tweets in the U.S. showed that climate ...
You can be all negative about these charter schools if you want, but I’m here to accentuate the positive. You can get all worked up, if you want to, by the contradiction of Luxon saying We’re going to make sure that every school in the country is teaching exactly the same ...
Losing The Room: One can only speculate about what has persuaded the Coalition Government that it will pay no electoral price for unreasonably pushing ahead with policies that are so clearly against the national interest. They seem quite oblivious to the risk that by doing so they will convince an increasing ...
Name suppression decisions can be tough sometimes. No matter your views on free speech, you have to be hard-hearted not to be torn by the tug of the competing arguments. I think you can feel the Supreme Court wrestling with that in M v The King. The case for ...
The Merchants of Menace: The Coalition Government has convinced itself that the “Brahmins’” emollient functions have become much too irksome and expensive. Those who see themselves as the best hope of rebuilding New Zealand’s ailing capitalist system, appear to have convinced themselves that a little bit of blunt trauma is what their mollycoddled ...
When National first proposed its Muldoonist "fast-track" law, they were warned that it would inevitably lead to corruption. And that is exactly what has happened, with Resources Minister Shane Jones taking secret meetings with potential applicants:On Tuesday, in a Newsroom story, questions were raised about a dinner Jones ...
Buzz from the Beehive One day – hopefully – we will push that Russian rascal, Vladimir Putin, beyond breaking point. Perhaps it will happen today, when he learns that Foreign Minister Winston Peters is again tightening the thumbscrews. Peters announced further sanctions, this time on 28 individuals and 14 entities ...
How Labour’s and National’s failure to move beyond neoliberalism has brought New Zealand to the brink of economic and cultural chaos.TO START LOSING, so soon after you won, requires a special kind of political incompetence. At the heart of this Coalition Government’s failure to retain, and build upon, the public ...
“Members of Parliament don’t work for us, they represent us, an entirely different thing. As with so much that has turned out badly, the re-organising of MPs’ responsibilities began with the Fourth Labour Government. That’s when they began to be treated like employees – public servants – whose diaries had ...
It’s becoming a classic case study for why lobbying deals with politicians need greater scrutiny. Former National Minister Steven Joyce runs a lobbying company with a major client – the University of Waikato. The University desperately wants $300m+ of taxpayer funding to establish a third medical school in New Zealand, ...
Time To Choose: Like it or not, the Kiwis are either going into AUKUS’s “Pillar 2” – or they are going to China.HAD ZHENG HE’S FLEET sailed east, not west, in the early Fifteenth Century, how different our world would be. There is little reason to suppose that the sea-going junks ...
Henry Ergas writes – When in Randall Jarrell’s Pictures from an Institution, a college president is accused of being a hypocrite, the novel’s narrator retorts that the description is grossly unfair. After all, the man is still far from the stage of moral development at which the charge ...
David Farrar writes – Radio NZ reports: The Education Review Office says too many new teachers feel poorly prepared for their jobs. In a report published on Monday, the review office said 60 percent of the principals it interviewed said their new teachers were not ready. ...
New Zealand’s economic performance and the PM’s vision Michael Reddell writes – When I wrote yesterday morning’s post, highlighting how poorly both New Zealand and its Anglo peer countries have been doing in respect of productivity in recent times (ie, in the case of New ...
Hi all,Firstly - thank you! You guys are awesome. The response I’ve received to last night’s mail has been quite overwhelming. It’s a ghastly day outside, but there are no clouds in here.In case you didn’t read my email and are wondering what on earth I’m talking about you can ...
If there was still any doubt as to who is actually running this government – and it isn’t the buffoon from Botany – then this week’s announcement of a huge spend up on charter schools has settled the matter. While jobs and public services continue to be cut in the ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Gaye Taylor As widespread drought raises expectations for a repeat of last year’s ferocious wildfire season, response teams across Canada are grappling with the rapidly changing face of fire in a warming climate. No longer quenched by winter, nor quelled by the ...
Half of Christchurch City Holdings Ltd’s directors and its chair resigned en masse last night in protest at Christchurch City Council’s demand to front-load dividends File Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The chair of Christchurch City Council’s investment company and four of its independent directors resigned in protest last ...
The University of Waikato has reworded an advertisement that begins the tender process for its new $300 million-plus medical school even though the Government still needs to approve it. However, even the reworded ad contains an architect’s visualisations of what the school might look like. ACT leader David Seymour told ...
As a follow-up to the Rings of Power trailer discussion, I thought I needed to add something. There has been some online mockery about the use of the same actor for both the Halbrand and Annatar incarnations of Sauron. The reasoning is that Halbrand with a shave and a new ...
This isn’t quite as dramatic as the title might suggest. I’m not going anywhere, but there is something I wanted to talk to you about.Let’s start with a typical day.Most days I send out a newsletter in the morning. If I’ve written a lot the previous evening it might be ...
Buzz from the Beehive The promise of tax relief loomed large in his considerations when the PM delivered a pre-Budget speech to the Auckland Business Chamber. The job back in Wellington is getting government spending back under control, he said, bandying figures which show that in per capita terms, the ...
Yesterday de facto Prime Minister David Seymour announced that his glove puppet government would be re-introducing charter schools, throwing $150 million at his pet quacks, donors and cronies and introducing an entire new government agency to oversee them (the existing Education Review Office, which actually knows how to review schools, ...
Seeing that, in order to discredit the figures and achieve moral superiority while attempting to deflect attention away from the military assault on Rafa, Israel supporters in NZ have seized on reports that casualty numbers in Gaza may be inflated … Continue reading → ...
David Farrar writes – Newstalk ZB report: The man responsible for a horror hit and run in central Wellington last year was on a suspended licence and was so drunk he later asked police, “Did I kill someone?” Jason Tuitama injured two women when he ran a red ...
Te Pāti Māori have launched a petition to stop the repeal of Section 7AA from the Oranga Tamariki Act. This announcement comes prior to the first reading of the Section 7AA repeal bill in Parliament today. “Section 7AA forces the Government to adhere to Te Tiriti o Waitangi with respect ...
The Government has yet again failed to do the one thing that needs to happen to ensure houses can be built – commit to ongoing funding, Labour housing spokesperson Kieran McAnulty said. ...
Treasury officials have outlined many ways in which the Fast Track Approvals Bill is deeply flawed, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking says. ...
Green Party co-leaders Marama Davidson and Chlöe Swarbrick used this year's State of the Planet to call on the Government to prioritise people and planet as the delivery of the Budget approaches. A full transcript of their speeches can be found below. ...
Green Party co-leaders Marama Davidson and Chlöe Swarbrick have used their State of the Planet speeches to challenge the Government to prioritise people and planet over profit as the delivery of the Budget approaches. ...
The Government’s introduction of legislation that would enable landlords to end tenancies with no reason marks a dark day for the 1.4 million people who rent their home in Aotearoa. ...
The Minister for Mental Health has found the Suicide Prevention Office and mental health support for 111 calls slipping through his fingers, says Labour spokesperson for Mental Health Ingrid Leary. ...
Today’s justification from the Minister for Children for scrapping protections for our tamariki was either a case of ignorance or deliberate deception. ...
The Green Party says the Government’s misguided policy on gangs will fail, following the announcement of the establishment of a national gang unit and district gang disruption units to target gang activities. ...
“With Police pay negotiations still unresolved after six months in Government, Mark Mitchell has today rolled the Commissioner out for a rebrand of their approach to gang crime,” Labour police spokesperson Ginny Andersen said. ...
The Government bringing back 50 charter schools will not increase achievement and is a distraction from the core mission of the education system, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Te Pāti Māori is showing extreme concern over the Environment Select Committees adoption of a lucky dip draw to determine hearings for the Fast Track Approvals bill. Of the 27,000 submissions, 2,900 requested to present. All organisations will be heard; however, the remaining 2,350 submitters will be subject to a ...
Today New Zealand First will introduce a Member’s Bill that will protect women’s spaces. The ‘Fair Access to Bathrooms Bill’ will require, primarily in the interest and safety of women and girls, that all new non-domestic publicly accessible buildings provide separate, clearly demarcated, unisex and single sex bathrooms. This Bill ...
The Green Party is welcoming Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ continuation of Hon. James Shaw’s cross-party work on climate adaptation, now in the form of a Finance and Expenditure Committee Inquiry. ...
The National Government plans to cut 390 jobs at ACC, including roles in the areas of prevention of sexual violence, road safety and workplace safety. ...
The Government has been caught in opposition to evidence once again as it looks to usher in tried, tested and failed work seminar obligations for job-seeking beneficiaries. ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Kia ora koutou, good morning, and zao shang hao. Thank you Fran for the opportunity to speak at the 2024 China Business Summit – it’s great to be here today. I’d also like to acknowledge: Simon Bridges - CEO of the Auckland Chamber of Commerce. His Excellency Ambassador - Wang ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed a New Zealand Government plane will head to New Caledonia in the next hour in the first in a series of proposed flights to begin bringing New Zealanders home. “New Zealanders in New Caledonia have faced a challenging few days - and bringing ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has confirmed a New Zealand Government plane will head to New Caledonia in the next hour in the first in a series of proposed flights to begin bringing New Zealanders home. “New Zealanders in New Caledonia have faced a challenging few days - and bringing them ...
The Coalition Government will introduce legislation this year that will enable roadside drug testing as part of our commitment to improve road safety and restore law and order, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “Alcohol and drugs are the number one contributing factor in fatal road crashes in New Zealand. In ...
The Government has announced a series of immediate actions in response to the independent review of Kāinga Ora – Homes and Communities, Housing Minister Chris Bishop says. “Kāinga Ora is a large and important Crown entity, with assets of $45 billion and over $2.5 billion of expenditure each year. It ...
Associate Health Minister David Seymour is pleased that Pseudoephedrine can now be purchased by the general public to protect them from winter illness, after the coalition government worked swiftly to change the law and oversaw a fast approval process by Medsafe. “Pharmacies are now putting the medicines back on their ...
Tēnā koutou katoa. Da jia hao. Good morning everyone. Prime Minister Luxon, your excellency, a great friend of New Zealand and my friend Ambassador Wang, Mayor of what he tells me is the best city in New Zealand, Wayne Brown, the highly respected Fran O’Sullivan, Champion of the Auckland business ...
Energy Minister Simeon Brown has announced that the Government will make it easier for lines firms to take action to remove vegetation from obstructing local powerlines. The change will ensure greater security of electricity supply in local communities, particularly during severe weather events. “Trees or parts of trees falling on ...
Wairarapa Moana ki Pouakani were the top winners at this year’s Ahuwhenua Trophy awards recognising the best in Māori dairy farming. Māori Development Minister Tama Potaka announced the winners and congratulated runners-up, Whakatōhea Māori Trust Board, at an awards celebration also attended by Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and Finance Minister ...
"On the 27th of March, I sought assurances from the Chief Executive, Department of Internal Affairs, that the Department’s correct processes and policies had been followed in regards to a passport application which received media attention,” says Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden. “I raised my concerns after being ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins has announced the appointment of three new District Court Judges, to replace Judges who have recently retired. Peter James Davey of Auckland has been appointed a District Court Judge with a jury jurisdiction to be based at Whangarei. Mr Davey initially started work as a law clerk/solicitor with ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour is calling on the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) to put ideology to the side and focus on students’ learning, in reaction to the union holding paid teacher meetings across New Zealand about charter schools. “The PPTA is disrupting schools up and down the ...
Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly today announced the appointment of Craig Stobo as the new chair of the Financial Markets Authority (FMA). Mr Stobo takes over from Mark Todd, whose term expired at the end of April. Mr Stobo’s appointment is for a five-year term. “The FMA plays ...
Surf Life Saving New Zealand and Coastguard New Zealand will continue to be able to keep people safe in, on, and around the water following a funding boost of $63.644 million over four years, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Associate Transport Minister Matt Doocey say. “Heading to the beach for ...
New Zealand and Tuvalu have reaffirmed their close relationship, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand is committed to working with Tuvalu on a shared vision of resilience, prosperity and security, in close concert with Australia,” says Mr Peters, who last visited Tuvalu in 2019. “It is my pleasure ...
New Zealand is gravely concerned about the situation in New Caledonia, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The escalating situation and violent protests in Nouméa are of serious concern across the Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “The immediate priority must be for all sides to take steps to de-escalate the ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon met today with Samoa’s O le Ao o le Malo, Afioga Tuimalealiifano Vaaletoa Sualauvi II, who is making a State Visit to New Zealand. “His Highness and I reflected on our two countries’ extensive community links, with Samoan–New Zealanders contributing to all areas of our national ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has announced that he has approved Waiheke Island ferry operator Island Direct to be eligible for SuperGold Card funding, paving the way for a commercial agreement to bring the operator into the scheme. “Island Direct started operating in November 2023, offering an additional option for people ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters today announced further sanctions on 28 individuals and 14 entities providing military and strategic support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. “Russia is directly supported by its military-industrial complex in its illegal aggression against Ukraine, attacking its sovereignty and territorial integrity. New Zealand condemns all entities and ...
A year on from the tragedy at Loafers Lodge, the Government is working hard to improve building fire safety, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “I want to share my sincere condolences with the families and friends of the victims on the anniversary of the tragic fire at Loafers ...
Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Kia ora and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for having me here in the lead up to my Government’s first Budget. Before I get started can I acknowledge: Simon Bridges – Auckland Business Chamber CEO. Steve Jurkovich – Kiwibank CEO. Kids born ...
New Zealand and Vanuatu will enhance collaboration on issues of mutual interest, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “It is important to return to Port Vila this week with a broad, high-level political delegation which demonstrates our deep commitment to New Zealand’s relationship with Vanuatu,” Mr Peters says. “This ...
Minister for Land Information, Chris Penk will travel to Peru this week to represent New Zealand at a meeting of trade ministers from the Asia-Pacific region on behalf of Trade Minister Todd McClay. The annual Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Ministers Responsible for Trade meeting will be held on 17-18 May ...
Minister of Education Erica Stanford will head to the United Kingdom this week to participate in the 22nd Conference of Commonwealth Education Ministers (CCEM) and the 2024 Education World Forum (EWF). “I am looking forward to sharing this Government’s education priorities, such as introducing a knowledge-rich curriculum, implementing an evidence-based ...
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I just found this link to an interview with Derrick Jensen. Environmentalist, "old growth leftie", who is surprised as to what got him cancelled. Writing about blowing up dams, no-one cared but question modern queer theory you get cancelled. HT Dark Waters on Daily Blog.
It is an hour and a half and does have some good insights.
Interesting move for Jensen to be interviewed by Southern.
Jensen's A Language Older Than Words was hugely influential on my deep green politics back in the day. I hung out on one of his forums for a while, in this Salmon/blow up dams years.
Him and the Deep Greens got absolute shit for their defence of material reality and sex based rights. Tbf they were pretty rude about transwomen, but as we all eventually learn, being kind isn't a successful strategy.
You might enjoy this if you have seen it.
Short version
https://youtu.be/PJsf5QY12rg?si=zBIjoixv2SHVIlT8
Long version
https://youtu.be/Cb3-tlyuhVo?si=4DkeJf7bDu7KH4Gb
you can follow the breadcrumbs from that. Jensen knows what he is doing here but many of the hard core identitarians won't get past the mention of paedophilia and queer theory 🤷♀️ The value is for the people trying to figure out what tf is going on in this whole thing.
I am far from a scholar of queer theory.
From what DJ is quoting elements of it sure sounds a tad fringe. I trust there isn't a lack of context.
He's talking about the origins of QT as a way of demonstrating the connections between QT and child sexual abuse. It's not that all of QT is paedophiliac, it's that the culture of QT is centred in highly valuing transgression and this undermines child safeguarding, allowing people who want child sex to be legal/tolerated to find some power.
He names Focault, Gayle Rubin, Pat Califia, Judith Butler, all people highly influential in QT. Butler is contemporary, and recently released a book. She is a very influential academic.
Most people who call themselves queer wouldn't know who most of those people are. But the reason it's such a problem now is because No Debate means no critique can be made publicly without accusations of transphobia or homophobia.
You can see the disconnect in the video. When show evidence of child sexual abuse apologia, instead of engage with the evidence and testing its robustness, the QT students are hurling accusations that in today's world are often damaging.
It's the same dynamic as why it took a 4 year independent medical system review to look at child and youth gender transition in the UK. Because the people who were raising concerns were shut down and the rest of the people who would otherwise have looked at the safeguarding issues were too scared to. People lost their jobs, marriages, careers, friends over this.
It's also finds expression in Rainbow culture. Pride was originally an adult celebration of adult homosexuality. Now it's trying to be family friendly, which means you have men exhibiting their sexual fetishes in public with children. Again, when people try to point this out, there is denial and ostracisation.
And because the progressive voices have been so successfully shut down, the debate is now terribly skewed to the right. Hence Brian Tamaki and co painting of rainbow crossings, the liberal left up in arms about that, and you and I are talking in yesterdays DR instead of there being front page posts all week about the Cass Review, Giggle v Tickle, and some dude in the North America who has just won a legal court case that will mean he can use public health services to have a neovagina created while retaining his penis. Because that's his gender identity.
Thanks for the overview.
There are parallels described in the Believe the Children episode of the Things Fell Apart podcast.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/s1-ep-4-believe-the-children/id1592984136?i=1000540368101
That phenomena of strange bedfellows (Southern, Peterson, Tamaki) is rendered all the more stark with the lack of natural allies from the progressive "left". (The "Punching down" and pedancy around phrasing/wordgames crowd).
Jensen's reference to old growth lefty resonates, but less from a wild nature lens more from a worker/class standpoint.
From Wanda Sykes, black US comedian:
“To me, the whole complaint about cancel culture is a lot of men — especially straight men — who are just pissed that they can’t say things any more, y’know?” Sykes explained, “And it’s not like you can’t say these things. You can say them, but now there’s just consequences.” Sykes continued, "That’s why I say I can’t get canceled. Only God can say: ‘All right, Wanda, that’s enough.’”
https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/wanda-sykes-says-%E2%80%98cancel-culture%E2%80%99-is-just-code-for-consequences.5269804/
Women who have been cancelled because of speaking out about women's sex based rights
Alison Bailey, black, feminist, lesbian, long time activist for racial equality and LGB rights.
Kathleen Stock, feminist lesbian philosopher.
Jo Phoenix, feminist, lesbian, criminologist
Ten examples of women in the UK who have been assaulted or threatened physically when talking about women's sex based rights
https://sex-matters.org/posts/freedom-of-speech/the-escalating-campaign-of-intimidation-and-violence-against-gender-critical-women/
that's a short list off the top of my head. There are many more.
The biggest concern ain't the cancelling, it's the societal zeitgiest that give the cancelling some mana. Followers and such.
Ironically I be came aware of some of the concept of the few who are beyond being cancelled. Taylor Swift and Joe Rogan are two examples.
Supporting new fossil fuel development? "What'choo talkin' 'bout,
WillisLuxon?"James Shaw, telling it like it actually is – Parliament's loss
“Global emissions must be halved by the end of the decade” – that’s 2030, Shane.
How a cult captured the NHS: society fails when it treats children like adults
Kathleen Stock aptly sums up "gender affirming care" of minors: https://unherd.com/2024/04/the-liberal-lessons-of-the-cass-report/?tl_inbound=1&tl_groups%5B0%5D=18743&tl_period_type=3&utm_source=UnHerd+Today&utm_campaign=a9d7da6ff9-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_2024_04_12_08_39&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_79fd0df946-a9d7da6ff9-%5BLIST_EMAIL_ID%5D
As anyone who drives in Auckland knows, whatever the amount is, it is a lot.
https://pointofordernz.wordpress.com/2024/04/12/nzta-does-not-know-how-much-it-spends-on-cones/
Saunders' nit-picking about investment in the safety and well being of workers and the public personifies the right's total disregard for anything other than their own bottom dollar. Fuck ém.
weka
13 April 2024 at 8:04 pm
Women who have been cancelled because of speaking out about women's sex based rights… (lists women)
Drowsy M. Kram
12 April 2024 at 9:59 pm
it's the same thing Robert.
How so?
It's peak patriarchy on both counts.
5,000 years of suppressing women because we embody nature and here humans are about to kill nature itself.
It's not a coincidence that transhumanism is arising at the same time as a full assault on women's rights at the same time as we all ignore impending collapse of biosphere.
The only way out is via embodiment, of ourselves and nature, and we cannot do that without women, from whom we all come.
Missed a bit of context there – Robert (again).
– two different completely different threads;
– weka was participating in a conversation with others putting her own thoughts down;
– Drowsy M Kram was initiating one with their style of posting links to mostly other people's reckons – (which is fine, just not usually good at creating momentum);
– your comment (as it stands) with no editorial – reads as an admonishment to weka for (ironically) talking about women's right's – because Drowsy M Kram's comment is standing there all lonely without someone looking after it.
I'm pointing this out because it is Sunday morning and I'm feeling charitable and thinking perhaps you ARE completely unaware of how your comment can be read by others.
You know, Molly, you're right!
Thanks for pointing this out; your Sunday morning charitability is much appreciated.
Since you are so appreciative, here's another suggestion.
Drowsy's comment is still standing alone in the TS playground. Instead of replying to me, go and play with him in the game you obviously prefer…
Love the playground allusion!
Again, grateful for your kindness!
I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis. He's not wrong, apart for his idea that women's sex based rights are fringe and not intrinsically linked to the climate crisis
He will probably equivocate now about my use of the term fringe instead of addressing the substantive points, but I thought it was worth saying how I saw it.
"I thought RG's point was why spend time on this fringe issue when faced with the immediacy of the climate crisis."
Not really. "Two years to save the world" did catch my eye though. The subject of women's sex based rights does come up a lot on The Standard these days. I've long been an advocate for the position that the patriarchy and the state of the planet are intimately linked, and also for the proposal that women were/are/will be the kaitiaki taiao needed if we are to survive much longer. I also believe and profess that indigenous cultures that have maintained a close animistic connection to the living world hold the understanding of how to establish right relationships between humans and non-humans and in particular, the women from those communities and in particular, the older women there.
Transhumanism though – there's a topic!
good to hear this restated Robert!
I agree – his unstated point – was to make that distinction.
It reads to me as someone who is telling others what they are to prioritise and spend their energy on.
The sideways approach to telling women to stop talking. (I also note that Drowsy's comment is still sans replies.)
A real "Do as I say, not as I do" comment.
btw, a post about Cass going up this morning (if I get it finished), in case you are around.
got bogged down in it, so might not get it up today. It's really hard to write a post on this that isn't a novel.
"It's really hard to write a post on this that isn't a novel."
I think it's impossible to be honest. Can only be broken down into small – but still very dense – segments.
this is meant to be an introduction 😬
Just clearing out my bookmarks, and this is good link to Alasdair Gunn from Genspect, talking about the treatment of chidren. (Link provides transcript, which I prefer to watching the video)
https://www.theepochtimes.com/epochtv/how-the-gender-industry-has-parasitized-peoples-emotions-alasdair-gunn-on-the-spike-in-teens-seeking-to-transition-5470406?&utm_medium=AmericanThoughtLeaders&utm_source=YouTube&utm_campaign=AlasdairGunn&utm_content=8-17-2023
sent you an email
Weka
There was a good press release from SUFW on X and now I see that Peter Davis has also put up something linking to BMJ
https://twitter.com/SpeakUp4WomenNZ
thanks, got both of those. Who is Peter Davis?
Presumably this one, weka – not Helen Clark's husband of the same name, lol.
https://twitter.com/PeterByardDavis
Thanks so much for all your work and input into the major (definitely NOT fringe) issue of maintaining and protecting women's hard fought for rights – here on TS and elsewhere. As for your patience with some commenters (RG in particular) on this subject, I certainly could not maintain my composure as you do … !!!
UPDATE – see you found him, but still want to pass on my thanks.
Peter Byard Davis is Helen Clark's husband.
Oops! Thanks for that.
I should have checked further, knowing that Helen C's hubbie is a sociologist!
I appreciate many of your posts here, joe90.
do you mean Helen Clark's husband? Not finding anything online.
found it. Good for him.
https://twitter.com/PeterByardDavis/status/1778880587576819989
Um..!…the link Davis recommends speaks out against 'advocates and activists' campaigning on this issue…when there is little/no quality evidence…
And also notes that 'no professionals 'took part in this cass report..
And seemingly agrees with BMJ…that this report should be the stimulus for further research…
Have you read the BMJ piece..?
[I’ve addressed your very poorly framed points below. I have some sympathy for people trying to get up to speed with what is a complex situation. But this is a major medical scandal where multiple children have been damaged for life. I have zero tolerance for lies and propaganda. From now on, if you want to comment on the Cass report or related issues, you will have to do the following every time
If you fail to do those things each time, I will simply take you out of the debate. If you think this is harsh or unfair, read this so you understand what is at stake – weka]
I've done little for five days but read about the Cass report, and the BMJ piece was one of the first.
The BMJ editor is talking about genderist/pro-trans umbrella NGOs and TRAs there.
The lack of quality evidence refers to the fact that GIDS and other clinics have been giving puberty blockers and later cross sex hormones and surgeries on kids and young people without adequate medical science to base those treatments on.
That's the scandal Phil, and it's a major part of the Cass Reviews final report. You are woefully under-informed here.
Bullshit. Hilary Cass is a professional. She worked with a university. The review was overseen by medical professionals.
What the BMJ is referring to is the fact that nearly all the adult gender clinics in the UK refused to share data with Cass so that she could look at the evidence for whether children treated with affirmation only were being helped existed.
Those clinics have now been told to release teh information by the government, and there is going to be a similar kind of review into the adult clinics as the child ones.
Let that sink in. Medical professionals refused to share crucial information with an independent review that was trying to see if children were being harmed by medical treatment.
Maybe you should take that up with BMj/Pete davis.?…I am just passing their words on..
And I read the admonition to 'activists and advocates' re paucity of reliable evidence to campaign on..
..to be also addressed to the antis such as yourself..
Me..?…I don't have enough evidence to have any certainty on this issue..
And it would seem that applies to pretty much anyone pontificating one way or the other…
And I was quite amused by you and veuto posting something that wasn't what you thought..and that actually tells you to taiho…and to wait for some real/credible evidence.
What is your reaction to that admonition/advice..?
the only reason you're not getting a ban right now is because I have to go out. Read the mod note and respond, you only get one chance at this.
I am telling you you are wrong about Davis' tweet and the BMJ editorial. I'm saying that as someone who has been following this debate closely for 7 years and has been reading a huge amount of analysis in the past 5 days. You simply have the completely wrong end of the stick here.
What have I got wrong about the BMJ article..and Davis's twitter comment..?
Are you saying you know more than BMJ..?
As I said..they are their words..not mine..
I repeat ..what have I misinterpreted from the BMJ piece…?
I mean..it’s a short article..and a tweet..quite easy to read/understand .
You may disagree with them…but why should you jump all over me..for reading/reporting .on yr misreported links..?
Links that question your stance..?
mod note. please acknowledge you have read and understood.
I am talking about what BMJ..and Pete davis said…
I am not saying this..as I said .I am agnostic on this issue ..due to lack of evidence..
And I am commenting on links you and veuto put up..noting they say the opposite to what you thought…
So .really..w.t.f..?..eh..?
Can I suggest people actually read links before posting them..
What 'lies and propaganda..?
This is the British medical Journal .and Pete davis..
Both links that you and veuto posted..?
That you disagree with their conclusions..leads you to accuse me of posting 'lies and propaganda'…?..once again…w.t.f..!
I have read..and I have understood ..
It's quite simple/clear..what's not to understand…?
I think I need a joint ..
Aahh..!!..that's better..!..
A nice mix of indoor/outdoor..freshly ground coffee beans..consumed looking thru the trees out to the body of water..
I recommend the mix of all that..
What I have understood..is that for me not to be banned here..I cannot comment on any story weka has written/is close to ..
And as a general rule of thumb…I should not interact with weka..if at all possible..
…a tad limiting…but I can live with that…
I shall return to the ghettos of o.m./d.r…and peer out from behind a rock…
You have completely misunderstood the BMJ editorial. I’m not explaining it to you because you’re not listening. The conditions of commenting are in the original mod note. Go and sort your head out and reread it, it’s clear.
I have read and reread the BMJ & Peter Davis' X (Twitter) comment. I cannot work out how Philip Ure has read what he has into it.
Peter Davis makes a couple of comments based on the BMJ which in turn has some quotes from the Cass Report. X (Twitter) imposes character limits hence the shortened writing
This is the complete Tweet from Davis
"The Cass review: an opportunity to unite behind evidence informed care in gender medicine" This is a quote from the title of the BMJ article
"Existing evidence woefully poor; cannot justify current 'over-medicalised' interventions." Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ. The word in quotes come from the BMJ
'Professionals in the field did not cooperate with Cass' Davis' words presumably from reading the BMJ.
This is link to the article in the BMJ.
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
How anyone could read this and think that BMJ did not support the Cass review I do not know.
The BMJ picks up on a crticism of the Cass Report about setting too high a bar with research standards then states
and
and
and
and finally
'People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
Feeling your pain, Phillip.
Robert, hopefully the setting out of the tweet & analysis and the link to the BMJ article will alleviate some of your pain.
Peter Davis quotes, presumably approvingly,* from the BMJ's review of the Cass report.
* ie he does not allude to anything he disagrees with.
BMJ picks up on some early crticism of Cass and rebuts that.
The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
That sounds sensible, Shangreah.
@Robert Guyton
"The Cass review is an opportunity to pause, recalibrate, and place evidence informed care at the heart of gender medicine. It is an opportunity not to be missed for the sake of the health of children and young people. It is an opportunity for unity.'
https://www.bmj.com/content/385/bmj.q837
That sounds sensible, Shangreah."
Somehow, you missed the preceding sentences in that closing paragraph:
"People who are gender non-conforming experience stigmatisation, marginalisation, and harassment in every society. They are vulnerable, particularly during childhood and adolescence. The best way to support them, however, is not with advocacy and activism based on substandard evidence. "
I am someone who believes respect needs to be earned. But sometimes it is also lost.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?
@Robert Guyton
"I have no idea what point you are trying to make, Molly, nor why you are offering your opinion to me.
Perhaps you're just bored?"
Just because I personally find you boorish, doesn't mean I am bored, or that I will ignore your comments if I consider them a misdirection.
This is a public discussion platform, and the thread is discussing a major medical scandal that is becoming harder to deny.
I comment – sometimes – because I believe there are some who seek to diminish the necessary attention and consideration on this issue – and whose efforts in that direction make it much harder to rectify and avoid further unnecessary harm.
For me – you are firmly in that camp.
Your work here is invaluable, Molly. Know that we value you most high!
@Robert Guyton
Part of integrity is not saying things you don't mean, Robert.
If you have nothing to contribute of relevance on this significant issue, have you considered just reading?
Double bad in my books Weka.
First from the Hippocratic oath that all Drs take
Ensuring patient safety is at the heart of the Hippocratic Oath: First, Do No Harm
The notion “do no harm” embodies the medical ethics principle of “non-maleficence”, that is to refrain from doing any harm first, before doing any good.
beneficence, non-maleficence, justice and respect for the patient's autonomy
First do no harm
various links
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#:~:text=It%20is%20often%20said%20that,wrong%2Ddoing%20and%20harm%22.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5747024/#:~:text=Some%20UK%20schools%20use%20the,of%20the%20oath%20%5B11%5D.
I'm not a Dr but surely the harm from puberty blockers and surgical interventions is/was known. The harm should have been first and foremost in a Dr's mind per Hippocratic oath. Quite apart from the gross known harm ie puberty blockers are not able to be reversed and botched surgical redesigns of sexual organs are well known, these humans acting in an almost God-like capacity really bother me. Sexual response to orgasm can be completely lost on children/adults who have been subject to ‘trans’ ‘work’. And someone decided that this was Ok when that child was pre teen. I don't understand how parents/Drs can do this to anyone.
The second bad is that these Drs were working in the public sector/public sector adjacent and presumably had contracts or other documents plus money from the Govt. Having worked in health when we had a contracting model I know that any group who refused to supply info would
a have had their staff referred to the appropriate professional medical society they belonged to
b had any accreditations pulled from them, leading to
c pausing of funds until a & b had been had been fixed
d our high powered audit team/plus teams from the funder of the general medical services fees (the way Drs are funded) would be there before the records could be 'lost'
e pausing of further funding on an interim basis even before any referrals
Of course these take time.
It may be that the intransigence will serve the Cass Report well in that the Drs are not actually covering themselves with glory in not providing the info. Actually if you read Hannah Barnes book 'Time to Think' you will note that several of those speaking to her (ie former employees) had expressed concern about not recording and not reviewing.
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/feb/19/time-to-think-by-hannah-barnes-review-what-went-wrong-at-gids
not as an excuse but as context, in the US there is significant culture in medicine around avoiding legal liability by overtreating or treating along specific pathways.
In socialised medicine countries I think this still happens but more along the lines of giving the patient what they want. This is part of why antibiotics have been overprescribed despited doctors knowing the risks. It's a weird contradiction, but in the US it's tied up with the agenda of insurance companies and what they will and won't cover as well.
Add to that, I don't think we can over-estimate the degree to which ideology is a factor here. Lots of theories on why people go along with it in the way they do, but I don't see it definitively explained. We just know it's there.
I've been thinking about this interview with Helen Joyce where she talks about how parents who have transed their kids have to stay ideologically committed to that for the rest of their lives, because they've caused so much harm to their child that they can't never undo.
https://youtu.be/ZG9_lcln7FU?t=4045
I wonfder if this is a factor for some medical people too.
I also think that there are doctors in it for the glory. The surgeons in particular who are honing their skills on the genitals and breasts of teenagers. Those ones can get fucked.
It is the children that I really get riled up about.
A girl child I know of had a phase of telling her mother "I a boy, I a boy". From this in the next few years up until now this child was subjected to all sorts of chemical interventions.
This idea, as a child, that you wish to be another thing is common and non worrying to most parents, kids grow out of it or parents/GP undertake watchful waiting.
Puberty for young people is a difficult time. We all know it. Psychologists and child development experts know it. Body changes, hormone fluctuations, social engagement, distancing from family, peer connections all have significant impacts on individuals. Many women will be able to relate how dealing with menstruation and body changes was often a cause for embarrassment or shame. The development of their bodies often attracting unwanted attention or comment – both from strangers and sometimes from previously trusted adults. Men have their own stories of this period. They are significantly different.
Self-exploration and understanding is a major part of that period. Fluidity in presentation, identification and connections is not only expected, but an aid in defining your adult self.
I grieve for the vulnerability of the young people caught up in this. The autistic, the non-regressive-stereotypical, the same-sex oriented, the ones with co-morbidities.
I hope that many have adopted an identity that required no interventions – and they will be able to walk away unscathed by a need for long-term medical treatment. For others, that have permanent outcomes to deal with, we need to demand high-quality, accessible, ongoing support.
I agree with all of this Molly.
Going down a path that is non reversible is tragic. It completely in my view blows out the concept of 'first do no harm'. This concept is not try to find the way then check that it is not harmful. That is of sizing up a child as a possibilty for intervention from the time the child walks through the door. It works in a reverse way.
I accept that Drs do have this expectation that they will do something to help us ie prescribe something…so much so that MOH/GPs were on a programme to deter antibiotics use where they were not needed.
You can see how young the girl child I was referring to by the language used 'I a boy, I a boy.' This was not a pre teen but rather perhaps a pre schooler.
This to me is a clear example of what might be behind some of this ideology.
It's those same old ideas / questions that can be asked when you want to find out who might be behind various things (at least to some extent) You can 'follow the money' and / or ask "who benefits?"
In this example the child doesn't benefit, the parents don't benefit (except maybe in their own minds in the short term). The beneficiary here is whoever produces, pushes and distributes the said chemicals, which would be everybody's friend, the pharmaceutical industry.
I see the Cass review has/is being covered here. Great.
Sorry I don't very the Standard much nowadays.
I will try and catch up with what has been and what hasn't been covered
Not everyone's so delighted with the report.
How do we regard The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa here on The Standard?
The points they have made in their first few paragraphs sound reasonable.
https://patha.nz/News/13341582
"The Professional Association for Transgender Health Aotearoa (PATHA) is disappointed to see the number of harmful recommendations made by the NHS-commissioned Cass Review, released yesterday in England. This review ignores the consensus of major medical bodies around the world and lacks relevance in an Aotearoa context."
"The final Cass Review did not include trans or non-binary experts or clinicians experienced in providing gender affirming care in its decision-making, conclusions, or findings. Instead, a number of people involved in the review and the advisory group previously advocated for bans on gender affirming care in the United States, and have promoted non-affirming ‘gender exploratory therapy’, which is considered a conversion practice."
It’s shocking to see such a significant inquiry into transgender health completely disregard the voices of transgender experts. It would be like reviewing women’s health with no women, or Māori health with no Māori involved.
it's a blatant lie.
From the Cass Review website,
https://cass.independent-review.uk/contribute-to-the-review/lived-experience-focus-groups/
The groups they engaged were
Might be time to review who you are putting your trust in Robert.
I'm not putting my trust in any group at this time, weka. Picking sides at this early stage of my learning seems irresponsible to me. I'll keep reading from the various camps and treat each issue with an open mind, as best I can.
you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?
It's not early. We have been talking about this on TS for years, and the debate has been raging internationally for longer. Children have been damaged because of organisations like PATHA. Please go read the Cass review post and inform yourself.
like I said to Phil yesterday, I have some sympathy for people trying to get their head around this complex situation. Hard this late in the game. But at some point the ignorance becomes wilful. You've been in these debates for some time, this isn't an early stage for you either.
"you literally just said that PATHA's position sounded reasonable, and I pointed out they told a blatant lie, and you want to equivocate with me over trust?"
I said it sounded reasonable. Are you expecting me to abandon my opinion after just one claim from you?
YOU may "have been talking about this on TS for years", but others might like to form their own views in light of the present situation with the release of a report and responses from various agencies appearing on the internet.
Is a case of your way, or the highway?
Or should we just rename The Standard, The Stroppery?
Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?
Perhaps in a philosophical way they are as they can point towards a truth. To do this though we need to know the truth or the least worst way of looking at something.
We need to look at: are these orgs or people that can be trusted?
Trying to get a handle on this is laudable but perhaps late.
As a personal view the lack of a base of knowledge does not seemed to have stopped you from commenting on womens rights/trans views over all the years that these topics have been raised.
Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators.
I would start with the Cass Review, incl the terms of reference, then read and then look up every single footnote. You will then get a view on the sources that this establishment view found relevant and those that it did not. Then look at comentators such as BMJ etc. Once you have the prevailing views then branch out….widening the circle.
Cass set a high bar in not accepting views that did meet her threshhold of what constituted good research procedure-wise.
In doing research as a newcomer we can become confused if we look at commentary before we know what the issues are. It just become like a smorgasboard or a pick & mix. Just a gigantic mush
This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art
"Does this mean that even lies are useful in forming an opinion?"
I commented "sounded reasonable" – it did, in my opinion.
weka claimed "lies". I don't know if weka was correct in their claim; they provided bullet points in support.
I've reserved my judgement in anticipation of more evidence. I reckon that's reasonable.
"Having learned how to research it is usual to get the accepted view under your belt. Then branch out to see commentators."
I'm well aware that this is the view shared here, however, I liken commenting on this issue to other issues, especially those that interest me the most; soil health, for example. If a commenter said something naive about that topic, I'd be pleased enough that they cared to think about it, rather than demand they do their homework. Even if they continued to question the need for a living soil, or whatever, I'd think they were engaging and potentially turning over rocks that might otherwise have disappeared from view. I'm not claiming to do that btw – best to make every nuance of my comment crystal clear for fear of being accused of opacity 🙂
Also (not only but) if a commenter with my interest in lefty issues wasn't able to comment on this particular topic; women's rights/trans, there'd be bugger-all else to talk about, bar WWIII.
No Robert, I provided the standard TS level of evidence: my explanation, some supporting quotes and a link to back up the claim.
This is where the wilful ignorance bit comes in. If you won't inform yourself even when the information is laid out in front of you, that's one thing. But when you then misrepresent the nature of that information, that is a problem for the rest of us.
You have missed my point. If you actually did know and read the Cass Review in depth you wouldn't actually be ascribing 'reasonableness' to the PATHA link.
As a learner you'd be asking how is it that this group seems not to believe the Cass Review? Seeking guidance that may not have been apparent to you as a learner.
You came out as though it may be a truth or at least 'reasonable' which had you read and inwardly digested Cass you would not have. The review is not that difficult to understand.
A more advanced learner might be carefully reading but probably coming to the Mandy Rice-Davies conclusion
"Well they would say that wouldn't they?'
You haven't commented on how you were able to comment on many of the Women's rights/trans posts here over the years, with no tentativeness or wish for learning, without this background that you are reading in the Cass Review?
You have posited views many, many times that have involved many of us in getting material or expressing views only to find now that in fact actually you hadn't read up, or know the issues. To say it feels like somewhat of a betrayal to have been misled like this is an understatement.
"This is a concept that should be familar across many spheres even including art. We learn all the rules about mark marking in visual art before we have the competence to break them. If we do this before having a deep understanding of the 'rules' our art is often amateurish and people just think we don't 'know' about making art"
Children then, cannot be artists until they have been taught the rules of art?
Picasso famously described his anguish at having to unlearn his teachings in order to draw like a child again.
You may be interested too, in The Fool card from the tarot deck, and the trickster figure from so many different indigenous cultural story-telling traditions, including and especially our own Māui tiki tiki a Taranga.
Note: I'm NOT classifying myself thus.
Robert I used art as an example to show how this step by step reading/learning goes. I have a degree in fine art and learning art is somewhat of a topic in the art world with some saying you have to be a natural at art to learn art and others saying that art, like any other discipline can reveal itself by step by step learning. Of course there are exceptions of course there are the naive artists.
Naive artists though are few. Talented people who have a possible head start in eye hand coordination are many and can be taught further.
Of more wonder is the story I heard from a teacher who believed children can be taught and recognise what we believe might be advanced concepts. He taught 5-7 year olds how to do perspective, at an adult level with looking at a mathematical approach, including infinity.
He said children knew that they were not drawing how their eyes saw the world. They were able to relate to what was being taught and were joyous at the idea of being able to show walls etc instead of a flat surface.
In general when researching step by step works best…..working out from a known source to wider views, practices.
I think this indicates that you don't have the knowledge from Cass Review under your belt. If you had you would not be saying phrases like 'one claim from you.' You would have known that what PATHA was saying did not line up with what the Cass Review had said. You might even have been able to utter/think the famous Mandy Rice-Davies phrase 'well they would say that wouldn't they?"
No. If I were merely making a claim I would expect people to scroll on by.
Instead, I spent a five days reading the various commentaries on the Cass report before I put up a whole post. That post includes references that people who want to inform themselves can read.
I also addressed Phil's inane comments specifically because I had done all that reading and knew he didn't know what he was talking about. He was was someone making a casual claim and he was just flat out wrong.
This morning I responded to your own claim of 'sounds reasonable' with,
Others have also provided commentary on this. We are not the ones making 'just one claim'.
I have seen you in conversations like this over time, and it's always the same. You can take any position you like, but you cannot on TS not expect to be criticised for that position.
Call TS whatever you like, but when any regular here puts up highly misleading commentary, there will be pushback, and if they don't acknowledge the mistake, then there is likely to be comment on that too. Stroppery or robust debate, we are one of the few places online that holds a standard of truth. It takes work to do that, which is why some of us take a very dim view of lies and obfuscation on important political topics. If you think I am out of line here, you can look at how lprent deals with such comments on other topics.
If you don't believe me about the CR then make an actual argument backed up by something real, not some useless propaganda talking points from an organisation that itself has been critiqued by Cass and where those talking points have already been roundly criticised.
Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to prioritise gender identity data over biological sex across its organisation and consulted with rainbow groups but didn't talk to any women's groups?
"Oh, you mean like that time Stats NZ decided to …"
Nope. I didn't mean that.
This is not explained. How? Why have we got 10 times the numbers on irreversible drugs than other western countries?
As it is from a NZ body I am sure they will recognise the NZ vernacular/meaning when I respond by saying
'Yeah right'
in tones of the utmost sarcasm
that was one of the more risible parts of PATHA's response. The Cass review was for NHS England. It took into account international research, but it's purpose was UK focused.
But imagine if drugs and surgeries in other areas of medicine were being critiqued internationally and a group said, oh that doesn't apply to NZ.
PATHA are sounding a tad pre-emptively defensive there 😉
Robert, the recently leaked 'WPATH' files reveal (amongst other things) widespread medical malpractice on children.
Here's a link to the leaked files:
https://www.cga.ct.gov/2024/gaedata/TMY/2024SJ-00004-R000318-Gerber,%20M-Opposes-TMY.PDF
PATHA NZ guidelines for gender affirming health care, etc come directly from WPATH.