Once upon a time there was an island

47 comments on “Once upon a time there was an island ”

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1. Redbaiter 1

   17 March 2009 at 1:11 am

   You see, its bullshit like this that convince rational people of two things-

   1) that global warming is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on this earth and,

   2) the mainstream media are contemptible and traitorous scum who have abandoned their true craft to produce lies and propaganda for the cause of global socialism.

   Here is the plain truth about the Cataret Islands and Lake Chad

   Cataret Islands- The sea is not rising. The islands are sinking. Water is invading the island not for the reasons the liars who promote global warming claim, but because of blasting of the reef for fishing and the movement of the Australian and Indian tectonic plates. The islands are at the junction of these two plates.

   Lake Chad- This is a well known fraud because it is one of the nine lies in the propaganda movie “An Inconvenient Truth”. Lies exposed by the British courts who found that in respect of Lake Chad, there was insufficient evidence to show the Lakes shrinkage was caused by global warming, and that “it is apparently considered to be far more likely to result from other factors, such as population increase and over-grazing, and regional climate variability.” (Lie No. 6)

   When I read such blatantly fraudulent lies as the Global Warming religionist promote through their yellow backed and tainted propagandists posing as journalists, I reflect upon just how far down the tube we are in this world when it come to truth, integrity and honesty.

   We are surrounded by lies and liars. It is all that keeps socialists and their global ambitions afloat, and we must change this circumstance.

   The world is not under threat from environmental damage nearly so much as it is under threat from the massive web of deceit the left have woven over the last few decades.

   Worst of all, the people have been deserted and betrayed by a mainstream media totally politicised by the global socialists. A media whose job it is to protect us from fraud and deceit are now the very frauds and deceivers who threaten us.

   There will be a day of reckoning. The liars will be hung from lamp posts, as they have been throughout history when truth and right have eventually prevailed.
   • Killinginthenameof 1.1

     17 March 2009 at 1:46 am

     Pick your lamp post Russel
   • Chris G 1.2

     17 March 2009 at 2:03 am

     “When I read such blatantly fraudulent lies ”

     Like scientific journals?

     You know what science tries to do right?

     Oh but its a conspiracy. Those socialist universities!
     • Killinginthenameof 1.2.1

       17 March 2009 at 2:19 am

       Chris G is onto it. In my opinion an individual scientist has far more to gain by disproving the status quo than going along with it. Simply in terms of more interest, more publicity, and generating more scientific inquiry to either reinforce or disprove their findings (the essence of scientific inquiry). This of course comes with a catch, they actually have to be right.
       • BLiP 1.2.1.1

         17 March 2009 at 10:05 am

         Not to mention more sales of books, DVDs, and T-shirts to the likes of RedBaiter. I understand most of these items end up in the same shops selling photos of UFOs.
         • Tigger 1.2.1.1.1

           17 March 2009 at 12:58 pm

           Actually redbaiter – usually it’s the ethnic minorities, the gays and strong women (historically decried as witches) who are hung from anything…not trees anymore of course because National thinks it’s okay for all of them to be cut down…
2. Rex Widerstrom 2

   17 March 2009 at 1:43 am

   *cough* That’s be crises, I suspect.
3. Redbaiter 3

   17 March 2009 at 2:51 am

   “Like scientific journals?”

   Moron. Y’know, a comment like that identifies you as so thick you’re just not worth responding seriously too. The tectonic plate theory comes from scientists, and so does the court finding on Lake Chad.

   Its your side, the side of the sneering arrogant politically motivated liars, that lacks real scientific backing.
4. Psycho Milt 4

   17 March 2009 at 6:47 am

   These “islands succumbing to rising sea levels” stories are basically an IQ test:

   1. Islands at the edges of tectonic plates are staying put but suffering from strictly localised rises in sea levels?

   Or

   2. Islands at the edges of tectonic plates are experiencing the effects of tectonic action?

   It seems that journos tend to pick answer 1, presumably because it’s much more newsworthy than answer 2. It’s also obviously wrong, but since when did that make a difference?
5. lprent 5

   17 March 2009 at 8:54 am

   Redbaiter is as wrong-headed as ever. In this case scientifically untrained as well and getting his data from dubious sources (wikipedia summaries by the look of it). In other words just another ignorant climate change denier (CCD).

   It sure as hell isn’t dynamite fishing. The same thing is happening at Takuu and the other islands in the region that have never had dynamite fishing. Takuu is getting well over 10 cm per year rises on average, and recently closer to 20cm.

   The tectonic plate explanation is bloody unlikely. We’re talking here about things that have happened in decades. It would be the fastest tectonic plate movements known. One of two centimeters per year is the fastest recorded movement in a horiziontal movement. Vertical is a lot less. Besides there hasn’t been the type of earthquake activity that would show large scale movements.

   He has also missed several other obvious explanations. Probably because of a fundamental lack of science training.

   It could be related to a volcanic subsidence of the seamounts, however it would be hard to miss the localized earth tremours.

   It could be related to sea current changes. This can cause sea levels to rise as water is pushed into a region that has constriction of egress – which is the case in this area. Unfortunately this can’t be a cyclic action because the rise has been steady over decades – therefore it points to a change in the sea currents – ie climate change.

   There are definitely increased storm surges happening. Combined with particular tides, they are getting what are known as King tides. Like the one that nearly washed my partner out to sea in Takuu a few months ago. However for this to cause a problem then the base sea level would have to have risen and by quite a lot, or there are far more storms – ie climate change.

   There are thermal expansion effects of the water as it gets warmer… climate change again.

   Anyway, all of these are climate change effects and obviate RB’s thesis anyway.

   Personally I hope there is a special ring of hell for CCD’s. They belong with the idiots that thought smoking was good for your lungs (and especially the people who said that there was no proven links between smoking an lung cancer), the appeasers of Hitler and Mussolini, the patent medicine makers using mercury as a tincture, that DDT had no side effects, or who persisted in believing that the earth was flat despite all evidence to the contrary…

   So redbaiter, please join the other flat earthers (now joined by the climate change deniers)…..
   • higherstandard 5.1

     17 March 2009 at 9:37 am

     Lynn I’m not sure earth tremors are a given for large undersea events – as per this recent discovery.

     http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/SC0903/S00026.htm
     • lprent 5.1.1

       17 March 2009 at 10:31 am

       When you’re living on top of a seamount it would be very hard to not have tremors.

       In the case you linked to, what you had was probably the collapse of a magma chamber and infilling from the crater wall. Which would have a localized effect. The actual energy dissipated would have been quite low. From NZ you probably wouldn’t have seen more than a minor earth movement detection, and probably difficult to localize. Of course if you were living on it, then the effect would have been noticeable 😈

       You also notice that the statement didn’t talk about any earth movement detection. That will be because they won’t know which of the multitudinous events corresponded to that particular tectonic event. They’d need to know the time for a starter. Recent in this case probably means since the last time they looked in 2007. Unfortunately because of the nature of seafloor, it doesn’t conduct earth movement waves as well as continental. Makes it hard to get a good geographic fix from a distance.

       Not really relevant for this discussion. But interesting in its own right for showing currnet activity on that subduction.
   • Andrew 5.2

     17 March 2009 at 10:34 am

     To be fair, dynamite fishing may in fact have had something to do with it. If you destroy the coral reefs that protect the islands then natural erosion will happen faster. Also tectonic plates move on average between 2cm to 10cm a year in extreme cases.

     I could not believe, as you say, that the sea has been rising by 10 to 20 cm a year at Takuu. If it were it would surely be rising the same levels all over the planet?

     Climate change is just one small part of a very complex process that no one fully understands. The climate has always changed and will continue to change. Those to scare monger others into catastrophic consequences if “we don’t act now” do not help the cause.
     • lprent 5.2.1

       17 March 2009 at 11:08 am

       Yes but there has been NO dynamite fishing at Takuu, yet it is having the same effects as all of the island groups in that area.

       Sea level is an average. It is not an absolute across the whole planet. Going to any beach and watching the tide go in and out will demonstrate that quote conclusively. But consider all of the effects that act on liquids, tides, currents, thermal expansion, etc. There are variations in all areas. What is different here is that this region north of PNG has been getting an overall large increase in sealevel in decades. It is the delta that you have to explain. I think it is a combination between current changes, and storm surges pushing more water into that area, probably coupled with some thermal expansion.

       Tectonic plates have been known to move fast horiziontally, but only after periods of quiescence. The faster they move the more earthquakes you get. That earthquake pattern doesn’t show in this area. You’re talking massive amounts of energy.

       The problem with pumping CO2 in the atmosphere and therefore the water systems is going to have some quite specific effects. It increases the amount of energy retention in the system (ie the glasshouse effect). That energy will change the climate. That is pretty basic. CCD’s seem to have a problem because they’d prefer not to have to deal with the effects of giving up dropping waste.
6. vto 6

   17 March 2009 at 9:15 am

   It seems the whole climate change issue is becoming more like religion. On the one hand you have the fundamentalists who will not tolerate any dissent and would like to dunk/drown the naysayers like the ‘witches’ of old, and on the other you have an equally vehement lot who retreat further into their position largely because they are being accused of being witches.

   It is no wonder people are turning off…

   lprent, there are places where vertical rises are greater than you say. Rimutakas on the backdoor is one, albeit by random large singular movements rather than slow and steady.
   • BLiP 6.1

     17 March 2009 at 10:22 am

     Really? What has religion got to do with science?

     There is well-funded international campaign underway to undermine the science of global warming, as well as pump in as much confusion as possible so that people do begin to turn off. Your comments suggest they are succeeding.
   • lprent 6.2

     17 March 2009 at 10:44 am

     Yeah the Rimutakas are block faulting upwards (on average). You get individual events that have significant movement, punctuated by long periods of quiescence.

     But the point remains, locals feel the change – shows up as either lots of little quakes if there is steady rising. Big earthquakes if there is big shift. You will always notice earth movements – there is a lot of energy being dissipated.

     Besides earth movements show all sorts of other morphological effects like erosion and stream bed changes.

     This debate about climate change has been going on at least since I was doing earth sciences in the late 70’s. The skepticism levels amongst geologists, climatologists, and earth scientists are far more intense than these CCD’s. But the debate in those groups has been long over as to if there is a human induced climate effect from green house gases. The question for them for decades has been how much and how much is being buffered or counter-acted by other effects.

     The short answer is that the effect is pretty strong and has been largely masked by the oceans ability to adsorb CO2. Now the data is available, the oceans show acidity effects rising, so it isn’t getting fully sequestered. The effect is going to be severe over time. From the looks of the recent data from the ice sheets, it looks like it is happening faster than anyone apart from the catastrophic theorists had expected.
7. r0b 7

   17 March 2009 at 9:34 am

   It seems the whole climate change issue is becoming more like religion

   Really? Seems to who?

   On the one hand you have the fundamentalists who will not tolerate any dissent and would like to dunk/drown the naysayers like the ‘witches’ of old, and on the other you have an equally vehement lot who retreat further into their position largely because they are being accused of being witches.

   Labelling the scientific majority “fundamentalists” betrays your bias vto, as does the claims of witch hunting.

   There is no witch hunt. Deniers are just wrong, plain and simple, and they make up this witch hunting stuff as a pathetic “reason” for their continued failure to simply admit that they are wrong.
   • vto 7.1

     17 March 2009 at 9:37 am

     r0b, labelling ‘the other side’ “deniers” is as emotive as it comes. Perhaps if that ‘side’ calmed down and stopped the emotive and dismissive labelling then the issue may settle into something more rational.
     • r0b 7.1.1

       17 March 2009 at 9:51 am

       I agree that “deniers” is an unfortunate term, with unpleasant connotations. But that in itself does not constitute fundamentalism or witch hunting, that’s a hysterical overreaction — shooting the messenger because you can’t face the message.

       Put aside the connotations of the deniers label and in purely functional terms it is correct. Some people deny that climate change is occurring and that we need to be taking action. They are wrong, dangerously wrong. And you should understand the frustration of some in the majority at the willingness of this group to ignore the scientific consensus and the accumulating evidence (some just because they don’t like it, or are too emotionally immature to simply admit that they are wrong).
     • Ari 7.1.2

       17 March 2009 at 2:26 pm

       Given that there’s no credible large-scale alternative models, I’d say “denying”, as in disbelief that is not based on rational data and analysis, is not too unfair a description, even if it misleads some into thinking they’re not being given a chance to present alternatives.

       They are. They just haven’t come up with anything better than climate change theories have.
8. vto 8

   17 March 2009 at 9:35 am

   About 10,000 years ago the sea level in Canterbury was roughly 150m below where it is now. That means the coast was out past the eastern edge of Banks Peninsula. 10,000 years is not that far back. Mankind has been around for a whole lot longer than 10,000 years ago – so maybe we should ask the peoples who were here in NZ back then how they coped. (moved above the high tide mark I imagine).

   May sound glib but ffs the polemic that streams out in this debate demands nothing more…
   • Matthew Pilott 8.1

     17 March 2009 at 11:11 am

     Yes, and I think you’ll find that the reamining hunter/gatherers and nomads will cope a whole better than the rest of us, unless of course we decide we want their land.

     Any other useless points you want to make because you’ve unilaterally decided “the polemic that streams out in this debate demands nothing more “, a self fulfilling prophecy if ever I’ve seen one.
9. higherstandard 9

   17 March 2009 at 9:43 am

   “Deniers are just wrong, plain and simple, and they make up this witch hunting stuff as a pathetic ?reason? for their continued failure to simply admit that they are wrong.”

   Depends on what they’re denying doesn’t it r0b – and the point being made by some of the people above is that some of the examples being trotted proof positive of global warming are garbage.

   While I’d agree that anyone who doesn’t accept that climate change is occuring is wrong, I’m also sympathetic to those who would say that the impact of mankind on climate change is not fully understood.
10. r0b 10

    17 March 2009 at 9:58 am

    Depends on what they’re denying doesn’t it r0b

    Of course.

    and the point being made by some of the people above is that some of the examples being trotted proof positive of global warming are garbage.

    No, the points made above are full spectrum denial. Redbaiter describes global warming as ” the biggest hoax ever perpetrated on this earth”, vto calls climate change science a “religion” practised by “fundamentalists” engaged in a witch hunt.
    • Bill 10.1

      17 March 2009 at 11:33 am

      Got the following quote from http://climateprogress.org/2009/03/08/ponzi-scheme-madoff-friedman-natural-capital-renewable-resources/ (Capitalism as a ponzi scheme…worth the read.)

      But the quote seems particularly relevant in the context of some of the comments on this thread…. “we are the subspecies Homo sapiens sapiens. Isn’t it great being the only species that gets to name all the species, so we can call ourselves “wise’ twice! But given how we have been destroying the planet’s livability, I think at the very least we should drop one of the sapiens. And, perhaps provisionally, we should put the other one in quotes, so we are Homo “sapiens’ at least until we see whether we are smart enough to save ourselves from ourselves.”
    • vto 10.2

      17 March 2009 at 1:27 pm

      No r0b, I said it “seems” like religion, and I said both sides are equally emotional. You have twisted it a bit, naughty.
11. Redbaiter 11

    17 March 2009 at 10:40 am

    “and the point being made by some of the people above is that some of the examples being trotted proof positive of global warming are garbage.”

    Dead right, and the above examples, Cataret islands and lake Chad are two of them.

    But there is a need to shift the emphasis.

    The real concern should be that the the media are lying to us en masse.

    The media’s betrayal of their craft is as big a threat to civilization as any perceived threat from global warming.

    Those whose job it is to protect us from fraud and deceit are now fraudsters and deceivers.

    Traitors to their traditional craft, todays so called “journalists’ are liars and frauds and fakes, and that this is an extremely dangerous circumstance has been historically proved, for example when they failed to scrutinize, and cheered for H*tl*r when he rose to power.

    Now their deceit and fraud is universal.

    All over the world the fine craft of journalism has been perverted into a means of propaganda for leftist causes.

    The global warming fraud and the charlatan Obama’s election to POTUS are just two examples of this.

    Forget Global Warming, the real threat is the universal political perversion of journalism.

    [lprent: No need to put it in twice. If there is a holdup from auto-moderation then we’ll release it soonish. Just have to remember to not use the words that I’ve previously found as indicators of trolls. Zapping the other copy]
12. r0b 12

    17 March 2009 at 10:51 am

    Say redbaiter, I’m worried about your blood pressure comrade. I suggest gentle exercise, and spending some time outside in the fresh air. Tramping is perfect if you can manage it, get your boots on, walk for health.
    • Kevin Welsh 12.1

      17 March 2009 at 10:58 am

      That’s what happens when you keep your coffee in a padlocked container in the fridge.
13. Bart Hanson 13

    17 March 2009 at 10:55 am

    Lincoln University scientists have found that levels of carbon dioxide produced naturally are far lower than the figures the international community has used to base carbon credit calculations on.
    http://www.lincoln.ac.nz/story21173.html
    There may well be unsettled weather which we can partly inaccurately describe as “climate change”
    The term “Global Warming” though is pseudo-science and is politically motivated.
    I have not noticed the sea level rising one bit on the East Coast of the South Island here in New Zealand.
    Man is vain to think he can “control” these things. Think about what one volcano produces.
14. r0b 14

    17 March 2009 at 11:06 am

    Lincoln University scientists have found that levels of carbon dioxide produced naturally are far lower than the figures the international community has used to base carbon credit calculations on.

    Wrong: that article is about Nitrous Oxide (not carbon dioxide), it’s about the Kyoto protocol obligations (not carbon trading), and it’s about science refining some approximate guidelines (not politically motivated pseudoscience).

    I have not noticed the sea level rising one bit on the East Coast of the South Island here in New Zealand.

    Uh huh.
    • lprent 14.1

      17 March 2009 at 11:53 am

      Perfect. Observant isn’t he…
      • r0b 14.1.1

        17 March 2009 at 12:34 pm

        Perfect indeed. There’s nowhere to even begin with a comment like that.
15. Ianmac 15

    17 March 2009 at 11:45 am

    Isn’t it a better thing we do to clean the air and the water and the soil, regardless of the reason?
    Those who believe that we have a lefty conspiracy to claim problems that do not exist, presumably will fight tooth and nail to retain the present levels of pollution. Good on yer Redbaiter. Resist any effort to clean up the planet. Throw your garbage in the river. Spill your smoke into the air. Use/waste resources as hard as you can. Double our population. You are a good bloke. Proud of your standing by your beliefs!
16. Redbaiter 16

    17 March 2009 at 12:01 pm

    [lprent: No need to put it in twice. If there is a holdup from auto-moderation then we’ll release it soonish. Just have to remember to not use the words that I’ve previously found as indicators of trolls. Zapping the other copy]

    OK, that’s fine. I’ll wait in future.
17. Redbaiter 17

    17 March 2009 at 12:04 pm

    “Those who believe that we have a lefty conspiracy to claim problems that do not exist, presumably will fight tooth and nail to retain the present levels of pollution.”

    What insane garbage. It is free enterprise that has embraced pollution control. How was it in your Soviet Union before it collapsed?? I’ll tell you, a damn disaster.

    We believe in caring for the environment as much as anyone else, and more than politically motivated socialists, we just don’t buy into lies and propaganda. That’s because we’re more intelligent than you. Sad truth that isn’t it? (to coin someone else above)
18. r0b 18

    17 March 2009 at 12:47 pm

    It is free enterprise that has embraced pollution control.

    Tee hee! Nice one. I’m sure the folks at the EPA got a great laugh out of it.
19. Redbaiter 19

    17 March 2009 at 12:58 pm

    “I’m sure the folks at the EPA got a great laugh out of it.”

    Sneer away. Everything I say here I can prove. Your problem is always your blinkered world view.
20. r0b 20

    17 March 2009 at 1:03 pm

    Sneer away. Everything I say here I can prove.

    Oh don’t be silly.
21. George Darroch 21

    17 March 2009 at 1:08 pm

    I know I’m a little late to the party, but this documentary on the Carterets, spoken by the matriarch Ursula, is absolutely worth watching.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1AqSuy5As0
22. Redbaiter 22

    17 March 2009 at 1:45 pm

    Matriach smatriach.. of course they want to get off that god forsaken hole, and if they need to prey on the ignorance and prejudices of one issue politically motivated zealots like you George, they’ll do it with gusto and enthusiasm.
23. George Darroch 23

    17 March 2009 at 2:52 pm

    “of course they want to get off that god forsaken hole”

    You are accusing Ursula of directly lying to us. She says quite emotively that she wants to stay there, and speaks about losing the islands in ways that are very difficult to interpret otherwise.

    You don’t give a shit about her and her family.

    I know people from Pacific islands who are facing these problems directly. They love their homes, and don’t want to leave. I suppose you’re going to accuse these people of lying to me too?

    But if you’re a political zealot, then these things don’t matter. Global warming is a cynical conspiracy perpetrated by socialist “scientists” with a Gaia agenda.
24. Ianmac 24

    17 March 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Redbaiter: “Sneer away.” so you say. Did it not occur to you that most of your comments are phrased as sneering at others?
    • BLiP 24.1

      17 March 2009 at 3:50 pm

      Don’t fall into the trap of trying to reason with RedBaiter. Its like having a battle of wits with an unarmed man.
25. Snail 25

    18 March 2009 at 2:01 pm

    vto, am I surprised at you.. and this — May sound glib but ffs the polemic that streams out in this debate..

    Required then proof – positive and/or negative – to your counter view.

    Not assertion, not like RB, but proof. Scientific, not scientism. Top standard and backed up, not feeble and enfeebled.

    If you don’t have it you don’t have it, but sticks and stones.. the words of crones and croneydom are wasting yours, ours and this whole world of many peoples’ time.
26. Snail 26

    18 March 2009 at 3:55 pm

    To hand, news of Pete Postlethwaite’s latest venture — The Age of Stupid..

    Go, see And know.

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