Winston is on the election warpath. He's going to deal with errant Maori and eliminate all forms of wokery from government. But, I've always found amongst the bluster and bs that is Winston, there's usually a gem of a policy to be found. This time around it's his suggestion to make it a criminal offence to obstruct or assault emergency first responders. Winston probably got that idea from a similar British law that's recently been updated allowing up to two years jail for offenders.
In my experience offenders in NZ fall mainly into two groups: snotty nose middleclass white kids who have never been told 'no,' or feral gang bangers who threaten emergency workers with assault or death if they don't fix their bro on the spot.
The police response in those incidents has always bemused me. Police don't generally arrest offenders on the spot, but try moving them on multiple times.
A major tidal energy project is up and running in the Orkneys: see https://orbitalmarine.com/o2/
It is a floating turbine system that seems innovative. Its rotors can provide power no matter which way the tide is running.
Shouldn't we be doing the same thing in NZ? There must be a likely site in Cook Strait where there are strong currents.
Coupled with Wellington's wind farms, it could mean a huge reduction in reliance on fossil fuels.
HT, Thanks for the topic and link. There must be a multitude of sites around Aotearoa for such turbines. Basically 4 times a day guaranteed output that could be used in conjunction with our hydro storage.
Thank you. I call it out wherever I see it. And you are right, there are groups that use it -often disguised, to indicate that this is a group for women, not for sex mimics. I belong to a crafting group that uses the initials – which was set up when obvious autogynephiliac men invaded a couple of knitting and crochet groups demanding that we "validate" their "femaleness" and their various self modeled constructions.
I really don't believe in banning words. If people want to call me a terf, that is up to. them. It usually alerts to the fact that they have no good arguements re gender ideology and is part of a playbook of no debate and smearing. But I appreciate your point Shanreigh.
I commented on Mickey Savages post "debating with Nazis" that I was reading an interesting book called Bad Arguements (its a compilation of 100 arguements writtern by various phiolosphy academics). One was about when people bring Hitler and Nazis into a debate. Those who bring up Nazis in an arguement are seen as conceding defeat of the arguement. I tend to regard Terf the same way. Although I do like the commenter who suggested Terf be changed to Perf (Penis exclusionary radical feminist)
A replacement word will soon be found to dehumanise the "other", so let it continue. The accusations also lose their potency, when universally applied.
People who believe in polite and productive discussion tend to avoid inflammatory words or words that deliberately misrepresent the position of others. I do not call people "Nazis", I try to avoid "fascist", though I might use "proto-fascist" to suggest a tendency. I do not call people "TERFs" and I do not refer to transwomen as "he", though I might if the trans identity was clearly an intentional ruse.
However, none of this is the point. I don't imagine for a minute that my personal beliefs are grounds for policing the English lexicon.
There have been some excellent responses so far all of which I agree with.
The best argument is that allowing the word does let us easily identify the bad faith commentators as most good faith commentators would use (sic) or other words to distance themselves from the slur.
it doesn't get used that often on TS as a slur. Where people use it as a descriptor I point out the problems and link to terfisaslur. I have also moderated on its use and will continue to do so. If you see someone using it, you can reply to any comment of mine with a link and I will take a look.
It's a common tactic, using words that aren't 100 % accurate but are about the vibe.
For example using anti-vaxxer to describe attendees of the Parliament Grounds protest, regardless of how often it was pointed out how inaccurate it was.
I use/d anti vax/anti vaxxer as a shorthand to describe people who were not getting the vaccination, ie for non medical reasons, did not want others to and thought that by offering vaccinations that Govt was over reaching in some way. Not to mention the people who had been deluded by various people saying the vaccines had nanobots, magnets, trackers etc. I also could not see why being anti vaccination also often meant being anti wearing a mask
To me the protection of sick people in hospital, older people in rest homes, children was more important to the country as a whole during the time of the emergency powers used in the pandemic. These were more important than to cater for people who did not believe the science.
I think in less fraught times we are more accepting of those with this type of view.
The parliamentary protest was a gathering of all sorts of people who felt they had a grievance. Not just those concerned about Covid.
Hence my dad's advice to me when he knew he could not stop me marching. protesting
'Have a look to the left of you , have a look to the right of you
If you don't like what you see, leave'
People coat tail onto to causes.
Using words like T**f, a word used by the transgender community (around 3% perhaps) of the population) to describe 51% of the population seems a little different to me.
As weka explained in another thread, banning is mostly for behaviour (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943140). I think we can tolerate offensive words in robust debate, even when they’re not (at all) necessary and/or can be avoided. The seriousness of being offensive depends on context, intent, and perception. That said, in rare occasions we temporarily put words or word combinations in the Auto-Moderation list (filter) to pre-emptively capture comments from problematic comments who show recidivist behaviour (i.e. they won’t listen or are slow-learners). (NB sometimes, the word itself is not offensive but highly idiosyncratic of the offending commenter). If it is serious enough, we leave a Mod note in the comment when we release it from the Auto-Mod queue. When things settle down again, we remove the word, also because it creates extra work for the Mods. NB most bans are preceded by at least one warning because we encourage positive behaviour and prefer not to ban. You may also have noticed that occasionally we delete serious insults in comments and mark this by [deleted]. This can be for various reasons too, but generally it is to avoid the start of flame wars, without actually changing the content of the comment. I think we have it about right on this site
I agree TS has it about right. I was sick & tired of reading that word repeated ad nauseam by people who really should know better if they were aware of the issues (not on TS so much but other places)
I am now accepting that to leave it & mark it say is better to identify the bad from the good.
A woman, Katrina Biggs, with 'But the Emperor has no clothes' look at the violence against women, women's issues and how this has culminated in the award of Young NZer of the Year to an anti women, anti women's rights, anti freech speech advocate
She concludes:
It seems that being an arsehole is still no barrier to getting a prestigious award, but being a woman who doesn’t want men in her or her daughters’ spaces gets your life put in danger. Good to know that the world hasn’t tilted on its’ axis too much.
The people primarily to blame are, obviously, those making threats and committing violence. But they are enabled by all those who praise the violence, or who say that although they don’t condone it, they understand why the people these women are trying to exclude (aka men) might want to lash out.
It’s really dangerous, and for the first time since stumbling on the nonsense of trans ideology five years ago, I’m seriously worried. It’s not just the glorification of violence against women in trans-rights forums—the posing with guns and t-shirts reading “TERFs get the wall”. It’s the intimidation recast as social justice (Pink News literally described those threatening agitators outside the Lesbian Project, led by an attempted* murderer, as a “joyful pro-trans protest”). And presiding over it all are the idiot politicians, academics and journalists who smear people like Posie, Kathleen and Julie by calling them “anti-trans” rather than pro-women—and then quickly link them to every sort of bigotry, up to Naziism.
Yes a lot of peope on TS don't read the Daily Blog, but Martyn wrote a column on this and the comments were full of people saying they will withdraw their accounts from Kiwibank.
As a KB customer, I hope Grant Robertson will bail the bank out if it fails due to a rush on money..
It is truly disgusted that Lal was awarded young NZ of the year. He never condemned the violence, does anyone know if he was more actively involved in it?
Of what Lal et al don't realize is that this is that this provides another wake up call for all those members of the genneral public who haven't quite realized how anti women trans rights activists are.
Its not the trans protesters that I find objectionable, its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. Surely the antithesis of feminism.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick"
I asked questions of psych nurse to clarify – whereas you made an assumption – and ran with it – so you include me in your pseudo-acknowledgement above?
Molly, psych nurse's comment was straightforward and easily comprehended.
Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading.
"Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading."
Link to where I made any comment in this thread based on assumption.
Or preferably, take heed of your own words, because I am not the one who needs them.
I wondered at your criticism of my reading comprehension and so tested myself with psych nurse's comment. I was pleased by the result. You might reflect upon your own response.
Robert, if you expect me to retract my justified criticisms of your engagement methods, then you'll be waiting a while.
If you persist in asking me to apologise – for something I did not do – just because The Al1en did apologise for something he did, then, again, you'll be waiting a while.
Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments either by giving them no merit, or by considering if they do indeed have merit and improving.
What you appear to be doing here is lashing out, which contributes nothing to any political discourse.
This comment is a prime example of where this kind of exchange ends up, so I'm leaving this – and any other such threads (unless provoked when my patience is low, and my energy is high – which would be against my better judgement).
I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis.
"Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments…"
I have none.
"What you appear to be doing here is lashing out…"
Seriously?? Lashing out???
Hmmm…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Exactly, woman have every right complaining about transwomen sharing toilets, changing rooms and sport with transwomen, but they need to chose their allies. Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
OK I will wade in, if all you have are flogged out labels and sneers – you have lost the argument.
As human beings trans people, like anyone else, had the right to demand the same access to legal rights and human dignity as anyone else. No-one here for one second has denied you this.
What you then went and did was to collapse your entire humanity down to your mere sexual identity. And then demand everyone else accept every implication of this.
I agree, but I see the problem being less about KJK and her associations with the far right, than the fact that the left/liberals used No Debate to shut down progressive GC voices. That's why KJK exists the way she does. There are conservative people with skin in this game. If we want to win, we have to empower progressives to use their voice, or the whole thing will be framed within conservative values, and that doesn't serve women or trans women.
Weka – Frank's usually supported here; what do you make of the points he's presenting?
"
By now, Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (aka, Posie Parker) has come and gone. Her mission – to amplify a particularly pernicious form of transphobia (under the cloak of “women’s rights”) – an abject failure. As a marketing exercise to peddle her wares, it went well.
A self-style "woman’s rights activist" Keen-Minshull/Parker has strident views, including rejecting trans women as women. She has been active throughout Britain, Scotland, Australia, and United States.
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
HRC is an organisation that should be able answer the questions put forward by KJK while actively lobbying for legislation on those issues;
People are able to have a view, whether it is supported by the facts or evidence is quite another thing.
I have found Frank Macskasy a bit reactionary over the last few years and so stopped reading him. Perhaps I'll start again.
I've found I cherish the progressives more and am willing to read from any side and some times time does not allow diving into Frank's views.
As people think more deeply about the issues on 25/3 we are getting more comment from NZ on the implications for free speech, women's rights. This seemed to be the preserve of writers from overseas in the immediate aftermath. They seemed to be seeing what was happening more clearly than our media did or more likely wanted to (seeing at they had worked themselves into a truly tiny corner)
"The answer to Kim Hill’s question – why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
We have graduated to a cultural landscape where commercial intimidation and even physical violence is permissible against people if their views are deemed unacceptable by the cultural, political and media leadership.
Those in positions of responsibility may wish to reflect on this, rather than stoking further escalation."
I don't always agree with Damien Grant but I do on this.
I am also concerned at the treating of the Ministership as some sort of private fiefdom where instead of getting measured comment on issues within the portfolio we get pronouncements or personal views driven along by the pronouncers being a Minister. (Granted the media seem unable to unlink the two and this does not help)
Marama Davidson seems to be one. You know I don't care about your breathless personal views about the trans community but I do care that you had neither the wit nor sense of reality to work out that any comment supporting or minimising the use of violence against people you disagree with was not appropriate.
You know being quite frank 'I couldn't give a big rats a***' what your personal views are Michael Wood and find them quite inappropriate and calling into question the decision making of the officials of the department you are the Minister of. I would have had much more respect had you stood behind the process and supported this.
I would paraphrase Abraham Lincoln – Quote – Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
"Better to remain silent on issues out of your depth than to comment and to remove all doubt'.
It was presented by Keen-Minshull/Parker’s followers and various far-right individuals that the silver object beside her throat was a knife (or alternatively, scissors). It was supposedly "evidence" of thuggery by counter-protestors at Albert Park.
The object was a cellphone, held by one of her minders. The image had been cropped for maximum misrepresentation-effect.
Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Anne, this slur about the scissors was comprehensively walked back some days ago……Molly & Weka had a discussion.
Perhaps you and Frank could elucidate.
The point I took from this picture was that it was so dangerous out there for KJM that her security first had to close guard, walking with someone with arms and shoulders linked around her, to actually having to lift her for speed so she was almost parallel to the ground.
It was a deliberate attempt to help promote the image of mass thuggery coming from the protesting crowd. The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.
More details from whoever posted the original screen shot from the livestream, would be good to know. But unfortunately, I don't know who that was. The images were being deleted and/or corrected even as I was having a conversation with weka, only a few hours after the event.
Many were watching the livestream concerned that they were seeing a woman in extreme physical danger. The livestream shows a degree of the chaos and confustion, and it abruptly cut out for several minutes in the middle of it.
In that resulting distress, people were looking for answers and details, and I also thought this was information coming through. But as I said, people with saner heads at a time of confusion, almost immediately reined that interpretation in.
The social media accounts I followed, corrected and or deleted and did not circulate that image further. (Mind you, I don't have a Facebook or any other social media account, so I don't know if this is true on those platforms).
Thank you Molly. I wonder am I to go on for the rest of my life resisting people who use this and other unproven points about the so-called 'lovely, sun loving, fun loving protest, at Albert Park on 25/3.
Did the woman with the fractured skull run into someone's opened sunscreen lotion bottle or the keep cup with the decaf double shot hazelnut chai latte in it?
That was just one example mentioned and I concede it was quickly discarded by mainstream media at the least. But I recommend this morning's media watch programme on the subject from non-partisan folk who were actually present at the scene:
There was a lot of 'unreality' bandied about by the usual local suspects as well as the overseas media. It always amuses me how much more coverage the reporting of false data receives over the actual facts of a particular situation.
Thanks for conceding the point regarding the image.
However, what point is it that you are trying to make with the RNZ link?
Is it that because some people did not witness it, the violence against women has been exaggerated?
I just want to note, that in the footage of the woman being beaten I can see my daughter and partner about 3m away, and they had no idea that it was taking place directly behind them.
The noise was painfully loud at within the rotunda area that the #LetWomenSpeak attendees were in, once those demonstrators broke through.
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Need I say more."
CPAC is a political group – it's What We Believe page is here:
Apart from the wholesale support of capitalism (expected) the rest is fairly straightforward.
I don't know the full details of the sponsorship deal – and to be honest I don't care that much. IIRC, Kellie-Jay Keen says that CPAC offered the sponsorship deal partly to give the #LetWomenSpeak events liability cover under their organisation. The cost of liability cover for #LetWomenSpeak events was/is prohibitively high. So the formal sponsorship, removes that expense.
(There is a video where this is related, but I'm not going to trawl through it all to find it, but will post if I come across or remember where to look).
"Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion."
Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Macskasy's article, and the responses to Robert Guyton's comment on same, highlight the fact that, when it comes to 'Posie Parker', some opinions are poles apart.
Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell whether she can reach the ‘heights’ of Pauline Hanson – based on PP’s recent encounters down under, imho she has a shot – exclusivity has popular appeal.
"Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell if she can reach the heights of Pauline Hanson – based on her recent time down under, she has a shot, imho – exclusion is the name of her 'game'."
Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.
I've been, and am presently being, distracted by a 4-man South Korea film crew that has been filming our every move over the past 3 days. I'm just managing to fit in quick glimpses of TS as they set up this scene and that scene, and so am finding it difficult to always choose the right worm.
Yes. That is a strategy that was outlined a while ago, and many GC's know of it.
Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion.
When the idea was first mooted in GC circles to create a party where protest votes could be given, it was treated as a passing fancy.
But the strategy of such a move became apparent.
The creation of a political party would increase the likelihood of the discussion occurring in the political sphere. There is also the added benefit of political engagement and speeches being adequately protected by the authorities. Thereby, avoiding such debacles similar to that we had in Auckland last week.
Elaine Miller, used a similar strategy when contesting a Scottish by-election last year.
KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member. I don't know if she has long term ambition to be a politician, I do know that she (and her support team) are constantly looking to get a public conversation going by whatever legitimate means they can.
I think this might have some success in that objective.
KJK occasionally mentions it on videos or interviews, but it is hard to search videos if you don't know the exact ones.
Here though is a 2018 article from the Spectator. Sorry, I can't quote anything, – I've moved from my phone to here to post the link, and I am out of free articles:
IIRC, the "woman – adult human female "billboard was put up outside a Labour party conference, as women were unable to get Labour politicians to meet or acknowledge concerns raised by party members.
Thanks for that link to the 2018 article in The Spectator. Looks like KJK was a Labour party supporter, so probably a member too.
Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble left Labour; Ruth Richardson and Don Brash left the Nats. They found(ed) a new home – ACT.
Which of NZ's political parties might have policies that align best with KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'"?
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation.""
If that is the case, you need say no more, imo.
Such information casts a shadow over the bright and breezy claim that the woman was "merely an advocate for women".
Because women see no merely about it. She is an advocate for women.
In my view it is time that people started realising that women are quite grown up, we exercise our brains, we can reference, we can assimilate/discern across multiple often competing view, we can see through charlatans and having done all this – we can make up our own minds about the message. In short to use the vernacular 'We can walk and chew gum'.
I see no need to disregard a message because the person may have political aspirations or because she need funding to meet insurance levies or for whatever reason mainstream funding sources were not aviable to her.
Don't you think that the messages she has given about women's rights and women's issues are worth a look?
Trustworthy groups such as Speak Up for Women and Mana Korereo Wahine support the kaupapa of Let Women Speak which is what it is all about.
In the No Debate Self ID crock the voices of women and our concerns were silenced.
You know if a red giraffe wearing thigh waders came to NZ, sponsored by the Pink Panthers Association to moo (or whatever giraffes do) about women's issues I'd go and see it (with a translator of course).
Please focus on the issues that have been raised and let us know why the concerns of women should not be addressed.
Trust us too.
We have done the mahi, researched the issues and the people. You don't need to second guess or 'warn' us
Actually KJM's work has received a huge boost in NZ with people being able to see that there are groups determined to restrict free speech, to 'deserving' people only, and restrict it by the use of force if necessary.
A joke?
I’m sorry I am a women and I don’t have a sense of humour attuned to that kind of ‘joke’ Robert.
My jokes are clearer like
What is brown and goes at 100k through custard?
A prune with an outboard motor.
and
Knock knock
Who’s there
Arthur
Arthur who?
Are there any mince pies left?
My "joke" was concerning the word, "worm", Shanreagh.
Being "mis-taken" seems de rigueur with this issue.
If we can maintain a dignified semi-respect for each other for a while longer, we might (we, being those commenting here) make it through the testing-time.
@Robert Guyton…….I cannot see the word worm in the post I am referring to. Is it in one of the links?
I also don't get the Mis-taken unless it is some poor take on miss. But then I am a woman and I've got no sense of humour. I am not away of a testing-time…this implies some sort of ending. I'm not sure this will end.
I can see how easily it would be for a party other than Labour or Greens to swoop in, put up a policy stating that BDM/safe spaces will be reviewed to see if it is fit for purpose for women, and a wave of women will go there, or at least have a close look..
If you want my honest opinion…the way will become clearer if you read, thought about, noted questions, asked them in a genuine manner and then reflected again on the answers. Then asked any queries.
Perhaps you might find it easier to read the rights based arguments that RW males have that enables them to see where we are coming from. RedLogix and TSmithfield have insights here, TS particularly with the chauvinism idea.
This one shot, 'smarty pants' way of interacting when we are trying to help you expand your knowledge is very off putting.
Many of us have had years, literally decades some of us in groups relating to women's issues, some of us have studied issues to stage 3 Uni levels at the time of the 1970s/80s wave, others since. Others of us have knowledge on human rights, civil rights, unions and are making the link through this. Others have lived the experience of the shifting sands of woman's issues through the fights to be able to live with our loved ones, marry/civil union them. I would venture to say there is not much that Women commentators on TS don't know about the issues.
"Eveyone I don't like is a Nazi" is a contender for most annoying feature of the 'progressive' left. It's appallingly disrespectful to victims of the Nazis, for a start.
Just as annoying is the political right's way of proclaiming that anyone from the left is a communist or Stalinist (Jacinda has been called such many a time) except that oddly enough it hardly raises an eyebrow anymore despite Stalin's appalling record on human rights.
Both the left and right have spawned monsters. But to be fair the legitimate, moderate right has fully, loudly and repeatedly repudiated the Nazis and fascism ever since the end of WW2. While not the same could be said for the broad left of it's catastrophic historic embrace of marxism. I still see plenty of minimising and weaseling on this and a persistent blindness to the modern forms it has morphed into.
Of course this does not mean there are not extremists on both sides who still embrace the old madness'. Mainly for the attention-seeking shock value I sometimes think.
When you boil all the rhetoric away, there is actually little difference between the extreme left and extreme right. They use the same methods to control people – violence and intimidation.
Frankly they can have woman. I’ve always thought it was a slightly offensive word as if we are something just tacked onto the side of men, literally wife man. About as offensive as woman being created from Adam’s rib. I am in favour of women now othering themselves as femme or femina.
The word is being used so often that it becomes meaningless as a slur.
Those who throw it about should do some reading / watching / listening to the vast amount of documentation available about The Holocaust Then hopefully they may start to understand what sort of person a real Nazi actually is, rather than just someone who disagrees with them.
It's a common tactic the "no debate" types use to shut down any discussion. (You're a nazi so I don't need to debate with you)
It's the same with words like facist, racist, transphobic, etc.
After an eye-roll at the headline: "…to challenge induction of transgender member", the rest of the article is an interesting read, of the special treatment given to that member in terms of criteria and induction.
The failure of many to understand how in such cases, single-sex provisions for women allow them to just get on with their day, with objectification is astounding.
The article points out clearly some of the impacts.
“The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in.
“Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said.
The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.
Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.
Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. “
(I'm using an ancient laptop with keyboard and trackpad issues, so I resort to an onscreen keyboard, or a phone which either has issues with what I'm asking it to do, or that emphasises my fat finger syndrome to the detriment of efficient posting.)
That’s really taking the piss. I’d be surprised if anyone would support this type of behaviour. Even a teenage boy would know that he’s been a bit dodgy.
Bad or inappropriate behaviour like what is described in the article is not acceptable, and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
anyone condoning or justifying it should be called out.
Exactly. So much of this debate swirls around various arcane ideological rabbit holes, when I just see bad behaviour from weak, immature people with no internal boundaries.
Yea but in instances like this one the bad behaviour is enabled by whichever beauracrats decide that allowing a man to join a sorority is ok. (In fact anyone or any organisation that panders to this nonsense)
The young women involved should never have been put in the position of having to deal with this bad behavior in the first place
The large majority of men – men who work for a living, support and provide for their families, act as a good parent, and will sacrifice themselves to protect their family, community and nation – think of this simmering alphabet soup of sex and gender variation as a bit of an aberration; to be tolerated but scarcely embraced.
I have three close family members, each with a relatively rare genetic condition that has had a dramatic impact on their lives. (I may have referenced some of this in the years past, I am not going to detail any here.) The fact of these conditions is something that takes nothing away from their human rights, and expectation that others will treat them with the ordinary courtesy and dignity afforded anyone. Nor does it subtract one jot from my expectation that their disability will be an excuse for bad behaviour. And of course as family they are loved.
But frankly their disability has been a monstrous pain in the arse, changing the course of not just their lives, but all around them. It has massively curtailed their potential to function, achieve and contribute – to be the people they could have been. If any sane person had the a choice in the matter, they would not ask for these disabilities. They are not desirable permutations of the human condition.
Looping then back to the sex/gender issue this comment is about. Where there is a reasonable case for a genetic pre-disposition, or indeed some environmental hormonal disruption that skews the usual path of gender expression – then like most people I am willing to be compassionate and accepting to the extent reasonable on the matter. To repeat this does not diminish their rights as a human being, nor the usual social obligation to treat them with courtesy and respect. You have been very clear on this all the way through and we agree on this.
Just do not try and tell me however these conditions are 'normal', or should be promoted as such. These transgender activists seem to be calling for a free – state-funded – ‘revolutionary genital tourism’ whereby you can, with chemicals or surgery or both, shift at will from being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ or surgically/chemically ‘non-binary.' And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom.
The 'progression' of this dark agenda is now fairly plain to see, first getting everyone to accept that gender expression is fluid, now dismantling biological sex, after this I anticipate will come the idea that age itself is a mere social construct.
To be clear, the gender/sexual politics of all this does not interest me much. Rather it is the undeniable erosion of stable family formation and structure across much of the world, and the accompanying social and economic dysfunction that always flows from this, is I believe is larger picture most people are either not seeing, or do not feel safe to speak to.
'And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom."
That is a strategy acknowledged by many women, across the political spectrum. However, it sometimes appears to be more clearly recognised and emphatically stated by those with "conservative" politics and viewpoints.
Some seem to have an internal censor that inhibits open acknowledgement. Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue – I don't know.
This idea of boundaries should be intuitively familiar to most women; most will have had a bad encounter at some point in their lives with someone who lacks them. And all too often it was an immature, weak male who lacking the ability to control his innate capacity for aggression (both active and passive).
On this point, I would argue that much of the debate around violence misses the point that men are innately more physically dangerous than women. Evolutionary sexual selection ensured we would be this way. On average the difference is not very large, we are a dimorphic species, but not excessively so. But at the extremes almost all of the worst offenders will be male; this being an inevitable outcome of how normal distributions work.
But in my view the idea this is biological reality is a social construct, an 'oppressive, misogynistic patriarchy' is not only rather uninteresting, it simply leads us nowhere useful. Thus decades of talking about the scourge of IPV and no change in the outcome.
The correct solution to violence is not to demand men should be weak and harmless, but they are socialised to control their innate aggression and direct it constructively. The role of childhood rough play, adolescent initiation into manhood, male bonding in challenging situations into effective, disciplined teams are all traditional facilitations of this.
But you are of course correct, none of this acceptable left wing discourse.
I have thought long and hard about our institutions such as religion and the patriarchy, including the notion of the nuclear family.
My conclusion is that generally they may be a force for good for many.
But not all especially not all women, I know though that there are many men who have welcomed the results of the fight that women have had on access to maternity leave as it has enable them to participate more in their children's little lives.
In the religion I grew up in women are able to participate to the fullest in ministering.
My ongoing view is that though we may consent to be governed, this is not for all time and we must watch like hawks to make sure the two institutions work for all women.
Unlike other types of activism, referenced by Stuart Munro women's activism is never done.
Activists, having achieved any measure of success, are disempowered by it. They must find new careers, or fresh problems, if they substantially resolve the ones that initially motivated them.
I have noted before being shocked after a period out of the public service at the lack of simple knowledge of institutional racism or sexism held by one CE I came across. Held by him and thus promulgated across his managers. This was 2005.
Yes – all good points. In writing the comment above I was aware of two matters I should clarify.
One is that in drawing an analogy between a genetic condition that is physical in nature, and one that expresses itself primarily in a social context – are not the equivalent things in every respect, but the moral argument is broadly similar enough to convey the point I wanted to make.
And yes there is no reason to demand everyone fits within the traditional structures. Growing up in my rather small extended family I had an older aunt who lived in a same sex relationship all her life. This long before it became fashionable as such. As far as we were concerned it was just who she was and there was never any negative comment or disrespect about it. But it was a private matter, and not something she imposed on others.
While I am sure she would have encountered the usual run of bigots and nosey parkers, as far as I am aware she never allowed this to hold her back from living a full and good life, both socially and professionally. And she had a rather marvelous collection of fast cars and motorbikes.
Newsroom has a new regular post called "Raw Politics."
Welcome to Raw Politics, Newsroom's new, election year weekly video podcast, with Tim Murphy, Jo Moir and Sam Sachdeva. This week: Stuart Nash's demise, Jacinda's Ardern's valedictory and Marama Davidson's ticking off by the PM.
I listened to most of it but think it is a "lets explore every little dark place in which to amplify the terrible management of the Government." Spiteful I reckon especially from Tim Murphy.
Watched it ianmac but probably too early to judge. What with the PP debacle and the Stuart Nash sacking, it was largely about Hipkins and his handling of both situations. I thought he handled them as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
I did think it was a bit underhand to claim this govt. wasbumbling on (my words) without demonstrating any vision for the future ("bread and butter issuesdon't cut it" Murphy said) when we have the budget coming up in a matter of weeks where all will be revealed.
If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview. It leaves only two possible explanations for the Police failure to maintain public order and protect the mob's victims:
1. The liaison with the women organising the event was genuine, but the officers involved received instructions from their superiors to stand down and leave the women to face the mob alone.
2. The liaison was duplicitous from the start and the officers involved never had any intention of doing what they were agreeing to.
Option 2 may sound far-fetched, but don't underestimate the misogyny infesting the police force. Here's a reminder of how some of them see women:
Linda speaks well throughout the interview despite – as you mention – Plunket's unnecessary interruptions.
(I did enjoy the rebuke at the beginning when Plunket corrected her "rotund" error. A couple of pointed digs around that later for emphasis from a woman that has just had enough).
The personal experience shared sounds credible, even if it does put the police actions and inactions in a very poor light. It does raise real questions about political influence as well.
It also gives voice to the very real threat that women experienced that has been routinely ignored or downplayed by some commentators, media and politicians.
Police not doing the job we think they should be doing's a theme.
Parliament occupation, Brian tamaki's many antics and P houses left untouched whilst the next street over gets chopper, patrol cars etc to sieze a few plants.
Nationals police force….they get in costers goneburger.
The critical point that many have missed – is that once PP and the women attending the event were thoroughly intimidated, and in some cases assaulted, the Police immediately swung into action, bundling PP to safety in a waiting car, then into protective custody first at the Police station, then at the airport and even escorting her onto the plane.
PP herself has had nothing but good things to say about these officers who did look after her after the crisis. Nor is there any reason to think the handful of officers inside Albert Park who were plainly either under-resourced or under instructions to stand down, can be reasonably accused of misogyny.
Nah – like many people here I strongly suspect this was a political act. All the dots are sitting there waiting to be joined up – and it will only take one disgruntled person to do it. Who knows, maybe a certain ex-Minister of Police.
From other accounts from women present, it was security that directed KJK to the stationary police, and perhaps even into the car. The police then had to act, and standard responses kicked in.
The police – despite requests – also did not go to the rotunda to assist the remaining women AFAIK.
If anyone has evidence or accounts that contradict this, I'd appreciate it being posted.
Plunket had an interview with PP yesterday that covered the events off from her perspective in some detail. I was merely going on that account.
I agree it was probably the people providing her security – and they deserve a good deal more plaudits for their courage than has been credited to them so far – that got her away from the rotunda down to the street.
It is my interpretation that the Police on the ground, once they realised just how out of hand things had gotten, finally had to ignore instructions and do the right thing.
In this paper, we contribute new insight into the differences between perceived and actual bias in an online community’s attempt to facilitate productive exchange on controversial issues.
Suggesting how the site should be run or complaining about moderation is a sure way to cop a self martyr ban.
But the conclusions in the report does contain the following…
“We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated,even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups”
I also read the suggestion, that I disagree with, that the rules be excruciatingly specific. The theory of specificism is law or similar is well known. For instance many believe in the fair, large and liberal approach where an incomplete and general list is put up. This tends include rather than exclude ideas, words that are similar to those instanced .
The other approach is that the words are included are all that are covered.
I see the benefit in phrases such as say 'apply commonsense' (fair, large & liberal)
rather than an exhaustive list of words trying to convey this.
The trouble with the exhaustive list approach is that if we leave off an example people may argue that this is not covered by 'commonsense' and so is not covered by the moderation.
I look on moderation as a way to get the best out of us and our arguments thus making them clearer and more persuasive to a greater audience. I don't see it is censorship. Not do I think it is designed to please the majority. We can all slip up and not link or link competently (my common mod)
I can recall several posters espousing uncommon views, who put them up and had a number of posters against them. They put them up again, same thing occurs perhaps several times.
The next post is full of ad homs against other posters, Mods, others with different views. They are moderated. They perhaps put up their immoderate views as they were tired of posters being 'agin their views.
I sometimes think that those holding minority views on site are often those whose views on another site or out in town square NZ are in fact majority views. So they are coming to a site they know does not espouse their views per se (and we have a number of wonderful posters on here who do that).
Anyway, a very interesting read.
I am a great supporter of moderation as I believe it helps us add to the sum of knowledge. It is not designed to make us all support vanilla views, but to draw out the hokey pokeys and boysenberries of this world…..a drawn out metaphor.
Yes. There are quite a few who have bailed from this site. I don't blame them. There seems to be a bit of a pack mentality currently developing. You know… 'you gotta completely agree with us cos if you don't we're gonna run you out of town' kind of attitude. Not all commenters (or authors) are guilty of this of course.
Hopefully TS can soon revert to its former environment where people were able to argue the pros and cons (because they always exist) about an issue with reasonable safety – and not a little humour when it was appropriate.
Adrian gets a bollocking, and so have I over time from LPRENT for supporting Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and Mike Smith. “fool” is how I have been characterised, so I generally self censor to be able to keep posting here.
Which is strange in a way because a look at the archive over a decade or more shows how supportive I have been of Mr Prent for keeping the site going and tackling the likes of SlaterOil in court proceedings.
But hey, no one is perfect and the ultimate counter for whinging posters I guess is obvious–“pay for your own server and site and say what you like!”
I get the feeling that you hadn’t read the article that The Al1en had linked to @ 9.
Your perception of the alleged ‘bollockings’ is a misrepresentation and mischaracterisation stemming from your bias of censorship and moderation on TS and how things work here.
‘Bollocking’, moderating, or banning here is generally not because of viewpoints but of how well or rather how badly one argues for them. Poor arguments can raise the ire of those who don’t suffer fools.
I hope this clears up some of your misunderstandings.
Your quote was so selective it was self-serving. Here’s the full quote with the relevant missing part in my italics:
We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated, even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups. We found, however, that the effect of this bias is much smaller than how the issue is represented.
It is quite evident from your comments in this thread that you were trying to be subtle, as not to fall into the self-martyrdom hole, and that your intention was to take a swipe at moderation here on TS. You can’t have it your way; say what you mean and mean what you say or you say nothing at all.
Your ‘missing friends’ have had their commenting privileges revoked because of their own actions and not because of poor and unfair moderation. Acknowledging my own biases, I think your insinuations (!) are inaccurate and unfair. I do acknowledge that on some ‘hot topics’ moderation can become more biased and heavy-handed than strictly necessary. Mods are not perfect and the ones that don’t have anything left in the tank take a break, tend to leave on their own accord, or have their Moderation rights revoked.
I hope this helps. When you feel the need to criticise Mods and/or Authors please don’t try to be too subtle and clever for your own good
I'm usually brick subtle but obviously not on here, but as for selective, even if your point is true and the level is much smaller than represented, you'd agree it's still there.
It was and is not my point, it is the finding and conclusion of one study of one online group (community), i.e., of Ravelry’s BID. My guess is that it is always present to some degree because it is inevitable when dealing with humans and human [online] interactions. If you were to ask if it is present here and does it present a problem I’d say “No”, but with the qualifiers that I’ve already mentioned in my previous comment. And no, I would not say this because I’m one of the Mods. I’d say it because I comment and occasionally author here, i.e., if it were a problem [for me], and more akin some other NZ political blog sites, I’d leave immediately and stop spending hours of my time on here. TS is the best of the bunch – spoken with real and genuine bias.
Interesting read, thanks. However, I wouldn’t read too much into it, e.g., extrapolate some of the ‘findings’ and ‘solutions’ to other political blog sites such as TS. Much of it was highly familiar to me, although it seems that none of the authors had any experience as a Mod, but perhaps that was a good thing because it might have induced bias in the study.
The issue that was not addressed is that of bias within the community/commentariat and the six tags attached to comments (that’s what we call them here on TS, as Posts are submitted by people with TS/WordPress Author status). Many a ban occurs because of and after a heated exchange with other commenters here […] and not all come from or start with a stand-alone comment, i.e., more or less entirely self-inflicted by the offender.
It’s tough to act objectively & impartially (neutrally) given my own biases, likes, and dislikes. I do my best.
The comment about the high workload of Mods struck a chord – TS receives more comments a month than the Big Issues Debate (BID) group on Ravelry in that study. Of course, not all comments are equal, but it gives you a bit of an idea of how much the two main Mods here on TS wade through!
If I have time, I will respond to a few other of your comments in this thread, because they leave a few things to the imagination and raise some questions …
There are some commenters who don't believe this, but the things people get banned for here are pretty simple and most of them come down to people ignoring moderation and wasting moderator time (I cannot emphasis the latter enough).
I will note an exception however. The last time you were banned, for 6 months, was for calling a woman commenter, who you were politically disagreeing with, "a nasty old cunt". In my time moderating here, that would be at the worst end of the scale for misogyny directed at women. Fortunately its rare and the reason it is rare is because we moderate before it gets to that point, and we curate a culture where its unacceptable.
We have this rule for good reasons,
We encourage robust debate and we’re tolerant of dissenting views. But this site run for reasonably rational debate between dissenting viewpoints and we intend to keep it operating that way.
What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others.
It takes work to create an environment where a range of people want to comment. I've just asked someone to not call a prominent intersex trans person 'it', because it is dehumanising. That kind of language will also put people off from being here. The commenter did a simple acknowledgement, no drama.
All of which is to say that by far and away the easiest way to not get moderated is to not be an arsehole to the moderators. Imo this largely comes down to intent.
In the years I was commenting before becoming an author, I often talked to moderators about their decisions and I don't think I've ever been modded for that. It's entirely possible to talk about moderation here without crossing that line. This is why I see relatively easily when people are saying they don't care about TS moderation (and hence the site). I no longer see any point in spending time trying to sort that out. In election year we are just handing out long bans after the first few times, to curate a better debate for the election and to save ourselves the aggro and time.
Why? What are the things you’re worried about writing that will get you banned? I know I have plenty, though I do remember you frequently getting tied in knots before you became a moderator, which I noticed hasn’t happened since.
what I'm trying to say is that, calling women cunts aside, people here don't get generally banned for what they say, they get banned for behaviour, often patterns of behaviour. This is good, because it means it's possible to avoid being banned even if one has controversial views.
Weka I'm constantly amazed at how fair you are, how incredibly articulate, and how at pains you are to filter your own biases.You make this site far more civil than it would be without you, and for that my admiration has no bounds.You may get triggered at times, but you never lash out
The words that were used including c**t are unacceptable to me & I am glad they were moderated. Why do we think that people want to see it written. Sounds like a male only worksite of old.
Shouldn't we pride ourselves on making our arguments/discussions without this sort of stuff.
signed
Mother of ten
Auckland
PS I note though several people on my twitter feed have had other Twitterers having to remove the words as inevitably they use them about others and fall foul of the twitter standards
''If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview.''
Cheap shot mainly because Plunket isn't ''Left Media.'' In fact it was the interviewee who was tortuous to listen to, but well worth the effort because, as you say, it was a gobsmacking interview.
My guess is it's probably some configuration of your No1 explanation. Andrew Costa may have been mulling over the issue, and because of his wokeness, worried about a backlash against the police protecting so called Nazis. Another angle is the Rainbow Community is still not 100% comfortable with the police as an organisation.
Plenty of history in the UK of Police doing the enforcement work for gender ideology. Chap called Harry Miller in his "Fair Cop" blog does a good job of exposing it.
I fully accept my characterisation of Plunket's interviewing was a personal opinion! I'm torn between being grateful he's providing a platform for these women to be heard and personally annoyed at his interviewing style.
Agree that some variant of option 1 is most likely. Either one is bad, though – can't see any way to put a good spin for the police on what happened.
Strange as it may seem, I agree Plunket can interrupt too much. I think he gets impatient, especially with those with a more ponderous style of talking. Plus you will notice he can't sit still. When I get annoyed I just think '' well, it could have been Duncan Garner at the microphone.
Just returned from the Kimbolton Sculpture Festival. Great morning, wide range of art, stall holders and food.
A couple of observations from snatched excerpts of korero and artists written descriptions of their work. A parade of Mustangs idled their way through the crowd to go on display. More than a couple of comments about how much 'The Greenies' would hate that and 'to enjoy them before they are banned too'. One exhibit was of a heading dog and a cow and calf and a bull. All made out of old pushbike parts and old stuff ftom a shed. The artist reckoned Jacinda and the Greens want to get rid of the cows and this was a reminder of their presence.
Following the fallout of the Shame @ Albert Park, I was thinking these sorts of rural events is perhaps a better environment for a LWS forum/event/tent. Lower key (but still able to be live streamed), organised and run by locals and anyone wishing to silence the speakers would have to pay $15 to do so.
You couldn’t repeatedly punch a senior citizen and get away with it in that community.
The two groups met on Monday night to discuss things and it had been agreed that Ngāti Kauwhata would take part in the event.
But now organiser Tony Waugh said the day had been postponed to a yet-to-be-confirmed date because of uncertainty and the potential for disruption and conflict.
I was thinking about some of RedLogix's posts above.
Something I was pondering is why women supporting PP have received largely positive support from right-wing males, and also left wing to be fair. But not so much the extreme woke-leaning males.
I was wondering if it was due to a degree of chauvinism more likely to be still lingering in us right-wingers. In a positive way though. To the extent that we value women in our lives, and recognise that women tend to be physically weaker than males, and therefore more vulnerable in a physical sense. So, seeing women abused or physically threatened tends to activate the evolutionary protective instincts in males.
On the other hand, many woke males may have had this type instinct replaced with a desire to be protective towards other groups they see as minority, and therefore needing protection, and now just lump biological women in with the majority oppression group.
Well done for a remarkably even-handed analysis; and while it obvious which camp I am located in, I believe you have done justice to the legitimate motives of those in the pro-trans camp as well.
What intrigues me is much less all the minutiae of the public debate around sexual politics, but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure. Is this not what a legitimate left would want for the people we are supposedly standing up for?
For example, and as we have discussed elsewhere on a recent thread on education, there is a limit to what schools can do, if a positive home environment is lacking.
Of course. The only reason for using the phrase "right wing" was that there was a lot of support for women coming from the likes of kiwiblog. But also, I recognise there are many such as yourself here as well who are on the same wave length.
but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure.
Not an area I studied in deeply, my study being more along the lines of organisational psychology. But what you are saying seems at least intuitively correct.
But, yes, I think children need stability in their relationships. And, ideally, young boys especially, need to have some positive male role models in their lives in some way or another. Unfortunately, young males often grow up in relationships where their experience of older males is anger and violence. And, it is better for them to be out of those relationships altogether.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
The literature suggests male/female differences are in actuality very small. But there are still differences. Not in the way of superiority or anything condescending like that. But more in the way of slight differences due to evolution. So, I think there is value in young men growing up with positive male role models, whether that be through a sporting situation, or club or whatever.
And, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have more gender confusion now. Because, young men often haven't had that male influence in their lives, and so are confused about what their true identity is. So far as males wanting to transition to female, anyway.
That is not to say I am blaming women for this state of affairs. More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
There is no doubting this. Yet professionally you must know that just blaming or hectoring a client to 'be a better person' is rarely an effective clinical tool. The key is to elicit a fresh insight and internal motivation to change. And in this respect much of the usual public discourse yelling at men about how bad they are has probably been remarkably counter-productive.
As a bit of tangent here, in I would point to the large number of WW1 and WW2 Returned Servicemen, many damaged and traumatised by their experiences as a bit of a social tipping point here. These were the first big wars in our society where there was a large civilian contingent of soldiers (as contrasted to the generally professional cadres who traditionally fought wars in the pre-Industrial era) who returned from overseas to families and communities largely uncomprehending what they had gone through.
And often with little support but their mates at the RSA and booze. The consequences for their families was often tragic one way or another.
Then of course we had the 1970's sexual revolution and freely available contraception, that effectively de-coupled sex from reproduction, and diminished the necessity to maintain stable families. Which in turn has spawned generations of fatherlessness.
I recall a story my partner told me years ago, and it may well be apocryphal but it rings true enough. A prison chaplain had the idea to hand out to inmates Mother's Day cards, that were very well received. It was evidently a good idea and counted a success. However when he attempted to repeat the same idea with Fathers Day cards – it fell very flat indeed. There were almost no takers.
Or another story from my own experience. When I started in Cubs (this would be the early 60's and progressing through to Scouts I can clearly recall the heavy involvement of whole families. Summer camps especially saw the enthusiastic and valuable contribution from fathers – in all sorts of ways that in hindsight was quite remarkable. We used to do semi-annual suburb wide bottle drives that took whole weekends of hard work, but were an immense amount of fun because everyone pitched in.
But by the time I progressed into more senior levels in the 70's it suddenly changed. We became a baby sitting service for single mothers and the entire tone shifted. I admire those who persisted with it through this period, but in the end it was not sustainable.
And the Peter Ellis case had a major impact on male teachers entering the teaching profession I think. Basically, males wanting to enter teaching felt like they would be under suspicion of being pedophiles. I think since then, the number of male teachers plummeted.
And, some of the modern marketing which seems deliberately aimed at causing gender confusion in children. For instance, my wife's sister purchased a toy pram for her grand daughter. And, the picture on the front had a boy pushing the pram.
Sure, traditional gender roles are very archaic these days. So, not trying to argue for those. But, this sort of messaging to young children just encourages boys to question their gender I think.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation. If there is a large amount due to modern socialisation, then we are doing our boys a huge dis-service.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation.
It is my impression that this 'confusion' manifests itself to varying degrees much more than we think. I think if someone really tried to study this – and I have no idea exactly how – they would find this an almost universal experience in adolescents of both sexes. (In this I have a fair bit of time for Jung's ideas around anima and animus archetypes.)
But like everything else about adolescence this confusion is transitory. In my view encouraging children to engage in chemical or physical mutilation at this highly vulnerable, suggestible phase of their life is no more defensible than allowing older sexual predators to groom and exploit them sexually.
As for autogynophelia – that has an almost entirely mid-life onset in males. I hesitate to comment – beyond saying this is probably an entirely separate phenomenon that should not be conflated with the adolescent puberty process.
I had forgotten about the Peter Ellis case – I agree it was remarkably damaging to teaching in NZ; but parallel events were happening in many places in the world, meaning that teaching became a completely female dominated profession. Even the handful of men left had to modify their approach in order to survive.
And as far as I am concerned this has been a catastrophe for a significant cohort of young boys as they pass through our education system. The most obvious symptom is the now complete dominance of females at the tertiary level. I don't have any NZ stats to hand, but in the US there is now a 2:1 ratio of female to male graduates – way more when you filter out the STEM subjects. All the indicators suggest young men are piling out of universities and either heading toward technical trades or small business. Or playing video games in their mother's basement.
A big consequence of this being the rise of the so-called, and much despised, 'incel' movement – a whole cohort of young men who have realised they have almost zero chance of every finding a mate and forming a family. Again we can yell at them as much as we like about how terrible they are – this merely confirms for them the correctness of their world view.
Or even if we step back from this noisy group and just consider the wider statistic that – again in the US – we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of young men who are not in any kind of sexual relationship even by the age of 30. Not even casually much less formally. And while there is a similar rise for young women it is much smaller.
And this is before I start mentioning the massive impact of dating apps that enforce a brutal Pareto principle on males – with the top handful of 'high value' males guaranteed of unlimited attention, a modest 15% or so who stand a chance – and the bottom 80% virtually ignored. In essence we are heading back toward a mating structure that looks a lot like serial polygamy than anything else.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
Much of the drop in average fertility rates across the world are not so much attributable to smaller family sizes as we like to think. It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation. It is the huge rise of women who never have children who are the big factor here – and while we know this suits some women well enough – for the large majority it becomes a matter of great sadness in later life, not to mention the dire demographic implications for the fate of whole communities and nations.
This only touches of a few points off the top of my head right now – my overall point is that family structures everywhere are under enormous pressure from many different directions – and not a lot of people on the left are open to talking about this.
It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation.
Observationally, this isn't true among the cohort of professional women I know. Having a single child is achievable without completely sacrificing your career – it's exponentially harder with each subsequent child.
Tied with the fact that professional women are more likely to have their first child when their career is established (so mid 30s or later) – when fertility levels are already dropping.
Every single one of these single-child women in my friendship/acquaintance group comes from a family of at least 2 siblings.
Also, observationally, my teen's class would have at least 40% of the kids from single-child families. Growing up, that was really rare – I can only remember possibly 2 or 3 kids in my class who were singletons (much envied by the rest of us, as they didn't have to share their stuff with siblings)
In NZ, we are 'lucky' that this is balanced by the number of blue and/or white collar workers, who choose to have a higher number of children – at a younger age. Our different cultural mix is a factor here, too (Pasifika and Maori women are more likely to have multiple children – cf Marama Davidson).
Other countries (Germany and Japan, for example) are considerably more severely affected by this demographic change. And, China is already in demographic free-fall following their one-child policy of the 20th century.
I appreciate this assertion around family size is counter intuitive. I gleaned this data from recent work by author and researcher Stephen J Shaw who was just as surprised as anyone else to uncover the real data once you drilled in beneath the aggregate numbers everyone else was looking at.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
I think that women (if they are prepared to go the solo-mum route), do have quite a few options.
Certainly the fertility clinics report increasing numbers of single women, choosing that route, because they are not in a stable relationship – and don't forsee one happening.
Also, it's relatively easy for women to source 'donations' from male friends (indeed several lesbian couples I know, have done this, (often from gay friends) rather than going down the official route).
I think that much of the involuntary childlessness is women leaving it 'too late'. Many are still not aware of how radically fertility can drop from late-20s onwards; and several I know had early onset menopause in their 30s.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
And, having said all that. I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice. Some of them are devoted aunts and fairy godmothers (but happy to return them at the end of the day); others just aren't really interested in kids at all.
I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice.
The data Shaw came up with however is that while there are of course some women who happily choose not to have children, it turns out they are a minority. What he found is that around 80% of childless women in later life wound up thus involuntarily – and to varying degrees found this the cause of grief and sadness.
To be clear, no-one is suggesting for one moment that women should in any manner be compelled to have children they do not want. I am speaking to the exact opposite here, women who do want a family but find out too late for one reason or another that it never happened.
I'd really like to see the data. I'm suspecting a bit of a biased sample with 80% regret figures.
For example: Surveying women who have unsucessfully been through fertility treatment is going to throw up higher 'regret' figures, than surveying highly successful, and childless-by-choice business-women.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
Yes very much to this.
The obvious challenge is that it is almost impossible for a single mother in her early 20's to manage young children and grow a career at the same time. With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
If we normalised life-long learning for all adults, if the political left more aggressively went after long standing workplace prejudices around age – for both young and old – this would help massively.
If we dismantled the lie we tell young people that career is the only thing that matters in life, and restored the innate dignity and respect parenthood is rightly due – this might shift the picture again.
With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
While the support of a partner *can* make having a family and a career possible, it doesn't always do so. And working from home is frequently not realistic with small children (as many families found out during lockdown).
Our cultural attitudes assume that managing the family is 'women's work' (and even worse, unpaid women's work). So that means that it is Mum's career which comes second, Mum who has to organize and manage all of the childcare and family organization, and Mum who takes time off work when the kids are sick, or other arrangements fall through. Extended family, means it's Grandma who does all of this (not Grandpa).
Case in point. Recent school strike. We have around 30 people where I work who are parents of kids (or Grandparents – extended family) in the affected age group (5-14). In not one instance was it Dad or Grandad who was taking time off work, or arranging for alternative family care – in every case, it was Mum or Grandma.
There is absolutely *nothing* stopping Dad stepping up to the plate to either take responsibility or organize alternative care [We are a highly family-friendly firm, and the CEO had already said that we would support families through this by offering working from home, or shifting hours or taking leave – whatever they needed]. It's just an unspoken cultural assumption that Mum will deal with it.
I know two highly-paid businesswomen with kids (we became friends when we were all going through the toddler years). In both cases, they went back to work after the first year – and Dad was a SAH Dad. Both women *still managed all of the family organization* – Nannies, Kindy, School admin, sports teams. All of the stuff that a family with kids needs to keep organized and under control. Mum still does it.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
And on that topic – a shout-out to the amazing group "Big Buddy" – which does exactly that. Buddy up boys who have no male role models in their lives with blokes who are looking to be mentors.
An outstanding charity – which makes a positive difference to so many boys.
It seems intuitively obvious that young boys and young girls will benefit greatly from having a positive Male role model (hopefully their Dad) fully involved in their upbringing.
It would seem the stats back this up (especially for young boys)
I was lucky enough to have two loving parents (mum and dad) in the same household and am 100% certain it helped me immeasurably.
Mum taught me how to treat a woman and Dad taught me how to behave towards women (which yes is probably horribly old fashioned these days).
But growing up observing how Dad treated Mum and behaved to all women (as an absolute gentleman) and the fact that they were married 50 odd years makes me think sometimes that some of these 'old fashioned' ideas are worth keeping.
I suspect that many young men these days are never taught and have no idea or even concept of what being a gentleman (or just a man) is.
Sometimes when I see or hear about another female victim of horrific violence or even at the other end of the scale just rudeness I have to remind myself that the way I feel about such things isn't 'built in' ,which is what it feels like but mostly taught or learned.
I've forgotten my point now…hehehe
[Good morning, a week ago you agreed to stick to one username + e-mail address (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941759). If you keep using two e-mail addresses, I will permanently ban one of them and your comments will disappear from the radar before the Mods can see & approve them; the Mods won’t be able to restore your comments, even if they’d want to. Your call – Incognito]
Its certainly been an interesting discussion and raised many things, and hopefully some self reflection too.
Also been a welcome change from the usual diet of dreary National/Act bad, Labour/Green good, opinion posts. And hasnt it been revealing of assorted politicians and assorted contributors you thought you knew?
I’ve felt intellectually challenged to think about some things, in a way that I havent, for a long time on the TS.
One thing I've learnt is that my ideas can change and be modified by other commenters.Especially when a commenter lacks animus, is engaging in a genuine exercise to understand ,to articulate how they think and feel, rather than slamming or insulting others
Reading these comments from Belladonna, Redlogix and Tsmithfield again. And the reflections by Hetzer, MichaelP and Francesca.
I have learned so much from them and I see I have already used your comment TS about chauvinism and seeming RW male support of women's issues……hope I credited you but I fear I may not have. ?
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It appears Nicola Willis is about to pull the rug out from under the feet of local communities still dealing with the aftermath of last year’s severe weather, and local councils relying on funding to build back from these disasters. ...
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A high-level New Zealand political delegation in Honiara today congratulated the new Government of Solomon Islands, led by Jeremiah Manele, on taking office. “We are privileged to meet the new Prime Minister and members of his Cabinet during his government’s first ten days in office,” Deputy Prime Minister and ...
New Zealand voted in favour of a resolution broadening Palestine’s participation at the United Nations General Assembly overnight, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The resolution enhances the rights of Palestine to participate in the work of the UN General Assembly while stopping short of admitting Palestine as a full ...
Introduction Good morning. It’s a great privilege to be here at the 2024 Infrastructure Symposium. I was extremely happy when the Prime Minister asked me to be his Minister for Infrastructure. It is one of the great barriers holding the New Zealand economy back from achieving its potential. Building high ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced the upcoming Budget will include new funding of $571 million for Defence Force pay and projects. “Our servicemen and women do New Zealand proud throughout the world and this funding will help ensure we retain their services and expertise as we navigate an increasingly ...
New Zealand’s ability to cope with climate change will be strengthened as part of the Government’s focus to build resilience as we rebuild the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “An enduring and long-term approach is needed to provide New Zealanders and the economy with certainty as the climate ...
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...
A new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...
Check against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour has today announced that the Government will be delivering a more efficient Healthy School Lunches Programme, saving taxpayers approximately $107 million a year compared to how Labour funded it, by embracing innovation and commercial expertise. “We are delivering on our commitment to treat taxpayers’ money ...
New research on the impacts of extreme weather on coastal marine habitats in Tairāwhiti and Hawke’s Bay will help fishery managers plan for and respond to any future events, Oceans and Fisheries Minister Shane Jones says. A report released today on research by Niwa on behalf of Fisheries New Zealand ...
Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Winston Peters will lead a broad political delegation on a five-stop Pacific tour next week to strengthen New Zealand’s engagement with the region. The delegation will visit Solomon Islands, Papua New Guinea, Vanuatu, New Caledonia, and Tuvalu. “New Zealand has deep and ...
There has been a material decline in gas production according to figures released today by the Gas Industry Co. Figures released by the Gas Industry Company show that there was a 12.5 per cent reduction in gas production during 2023, and a 27.8 per cent reduction in gas production in the ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins tonight announced the recipients of the Minister of Defence Awards of Excellence for Industry, saying they all contribute to New Zealanders’ security and wellbeing. “Congratulations to this year’s recipients, whose innovative products and services play a critical role in the delivery of New Zealand’s defence capabilities, ...
Welcome to you all - it is a pleasure to be here this evening.I would like to start by thanking Greg Lowe, Chair of the New Zealand Defence Industry Advisory Council, for co-hosting this reception with me. This evening is about recognising businesses from across New Zealand and overseas who in ...
It is a pleasure to be speaking to you as the Minister for Digitising Government. I would like to thank Akolade for the invitation to address this Summit, and to acknowledge the great effort you are making to grow New Zealand’s digital future. Today, we stand at the cusp of ...
New Zealand is urging both Israel and Hamas to agree to an immediate ceasefire to avoid the further humanitarian catastrophe that military action in Rafah would unleash, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The immense suffering in Gaza cannot be allowed to worsen further. Both sides have a responsibility to ...
A new online data dashboard released today as part of the Government’s school attendance action plan makes more timely daily attendance data available to the public and parents, says Associate Education Minister David Seymour. The interactive dashboard will be updated once a week to show a national average of how ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has announced Rosemary Banks will be New Zealand’s next Ambassador to the United States of America. “Our relationship with the United States is crucial for New Zealand in strategic, security and economic terms,” Mr Peters says. “New Zealand and the United States have a ...
The Government is considering creating a new tier of minerals permitting that will make it easier for hobby miners to prospect for gold. “New Zealand was built on gold, it’s in our DNA. Our gold deposits, particularly in regions such as Otago and the West Coast have always attracted fortune-hunters. ...
Minister for Trade Todd McClay today announced that New Zealand and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) will commence negotiations on a free trade agreement (FTA). Minister McClay met with his counterpart UAE Trade Minister Dr Thani bin Ahmed Al Zeyoudi in Dubai, where they announced the launch of negotiations on a ...
New Zealand Sign Language Week is an excellent opportunity for all Kiwis to give the language a go, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. This week (May 6 to 12) is New Zealand Sign Language (NZSL) Week. The theme is “an Aotearoa where anyone can sign anywhere” and aims to ...
Six tertiary students have been selected to work on NASA projects in the US through a New Zealand Space Scholarship, Space Minister Judith Collins announced today. “This is a fantastic opportunity for these talented students. They will undertake internships at NASA’s Ames Research Center or its Jet Propulsion Laboratory (JPL), where ...
New Zealanders will be safer because of a $1.9 billion investment in more frontline Corrections officers, more support for offenders to turn away from crime, and more prison capacity, Corrections Minister Mark Mitchell says. “Our Government said we would crack down on crime. We promised to restore law and order, ...
The OECD’s latest report on New Zealand reinforces the importance of bringing Government spending under control, Finance Minister Nicola Willis says. The OECD conducts country surveys every two years to review its members’ economic policies. The 2024 New Zealand survey was presented in Wellington today by OECD Chief Economist Clare Lombardelli. ...
The Government has delivered on its election promise to provide a financially sustainable model for Auckland under its Local Water Done Well plan. The plan, which has been unanimously endorsed by Auckland Council’s Governing Body, will see Aucklanders avoid the previously projected 25.8 per cent water rates increases while retaining ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters discussed the need for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza, and enhanced cooperation in the Pacific with German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock during her first official visit to New Zealand today. "New Zealand and Germany enjoy shared interests and values, including the rule of law, democracy, respect for the international system ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop today released his decision on four recommendations referred to him by the Western Bay of Plenty District Council, opening the door to housing growth in the area. The Council’s Plan Change 92 allows more homes to be built in existing and new ...
Thank you, John McKinnon and the New Zealand China Council for the invitation to speak to you today. Thank you too, all members of the China Council. Your effort has played an essential role in helping to build, shape, and grow a balanced and resilient relationship between our two ...
The Government is modernising insurance law to better protect Kiwis and provide security in the event of a disaster, Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly announced today. “These reforms are long overdue. New Zealand’s insurance law is complicated and dated, some of which is more than 100 years old. ...
The coalition Government is refreshing its approach to supporting pay equity claims as time-limited funding for the Pay Equity Taskforce comes to an end, Public Service Minister Nicola Willis says. “Three years ago, the then-government introduced changes to the Equal Pay Act to support pay equity bargaining. The changes were ...
Structured literacy will change the way New Zealand children learn to read - improving achievement and setting students up for success, Education Minister Erica Stanford says. “Being able to read and write is a fundamental life skill that too many young people are missing out on. Recent data shows that ...
Trade Minister Todd McClay says Canada’s refusal to comply in full with a CPTPP trade dispute ruling in our favour over dairy trade is cynical and New Zealand has no intention of backing down. Mr McClay said he has asked for urgent legal advice in respect of our ‘next move’ ...
The rights of our children and young people will be enhanced by changes the coalition Government will make to strengthen oversight of the Oranga Tamariki system, including restoring a single Children’s Commissioner. “The Government is committed to delivering better public services that care for our most at-risk young people and ...
The Government is making it easier for minor changes to be made to a building consent so building a home is easier and more affordable, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “The coalition Government is focused on making it easier and cheaper to build homes so we can ...
New Zealand lost a true legend when internationally renowned disability advocate Sir Robert Martin (KNZM) passed away at his home in Whanganui last night, Disabilities Issues Minister Louise Upston says. “Our Government’s thoughts are with his wife Lynda, family and community, those he has worked with, the disability community in ...
Didn’t see the amazing and exquisite southern lights over the weekend? You’re not alone: Shanti Mathias has some tips on how to cope. Not to gloat, but I had a very lovely weekend. I went for a long bike ride in the sunshine. I read a magazine on the back ...
At the time of the offending, Mr Ape ran Hoop Star Basketball Academy and submitted fraudulent grant applications that represented over $75,000 in fictitious costs. ...
Local authority financial statistics provide information on the annual performance of core non-trading activities of all New Zealand's territorial and regional councils. ...
Kāinga Ora’s debt problem is serious – but so is the urgent need for more affordable homes, says poverty campaigner Alan Johnson. As Kāinga Ora cancels projects and sells land previously earmarked for development, it’s clear that two issues are set to dominate the public housing narrative over the next ...
By Caleb Fotheringham, RNZ Pacific journalist A National Union of Workers (NUW) official is hopeful Fiji Water employees who have been on strike for almost a week will return to work shortly. Last Tuesday, a group of workers for Fiji Water went on strike over pay disputes at the multi-million ...
True to form, Wellington City Council’s consultation has been a flop. If they’ve been recording residents’ answers incorrectly, then the only option is to go back to the drawing board and start public consultations again from scratch. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tracey Clement, Lecturer in Visual Art and McGlade Gallery Director, Australian Catholic University Tracey Clement, Impossible Numbers.Tracey Clement I slip the needle through a small loop of black thread, pull it tight and snip. Done. I have just tied off the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jochen Kaempf, Associate Professor of Natural Sciences (Oceanography), Flinders University Gonzalo Buzonni/Shutterstock From around 1996 to 2010, Australia was gripped by the millennium drought. As water shortages bit hard, most of Australia’s capital cities built large seawater desalination plants – Sydney, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Maria O’Sullivan, Associate Professor of Law, Deakin Law School, Deakin University Students have been protesting on university campuses across Australia for several weeks now, calling on their institutions to cut ties with weapons manufacturers supplying arms to Israel. Some have noted their ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Steven Hail, Adjunct Associate Professor, Torrens University Australia Wolfilser/ShutterstockThis article is part one of The Conversation’s “Business Basics” series where we ask leading experts to discuss key concepts in business, economics and finance. For the most part, economists continue ...
Big business is pouring eye-watering sums into parties on the political right. Max Rashbrooke wonders what it’s getting in return. A couple of years ago, a National Party contact told me it had “never been easier” to get big donations from businesses. Anger about the Covid-era “fortress New Zealand” policy, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Erin O’Brien, Associate Professor, School of Government and International Relations, Griffith University University campuses around the world have become the site of tiny tent cities in recent weeks, with student activists protesting the ongoing conflict in Gaza. Though the protests on ...
In this extract from The Bulletin, Stewart Sowman-Lund looks at the proposed law and the ongoing concern about it. To receive The Bulletin in full each weekday, sign up here. Where we’re at with the fast-track ...
The revamped school lunch programme is budgeting $3 per lunch, rather than the current $8. But is it really so simple to cut costs? Shanti Mathias investigates. Last week, associate education minister and Act Party leader David Seymour announced the government’s revamped school lunch programme, which will provide food to ...
Exactly 100 years ago, on the eve of another Paris Olympics, young Kiwi Gwitha Shand was the talk of the swimming world. The 19-year-old from Christchurch had broken the world record in the 440-yard freestyle multiple times leading up to the 1924 Olympics, and was described in newspapers as one ...
The New Zealand book trade is still reeling after the shock news that Penguin has axed its head of publishing. The redundancy comes just as the biggest week of the year in New Zealand literature is set to take place. The winners of the Ockham national book awards are announced ...
A rest home with a concierge, iced tea fountain, hybrid Jaguars to drive, and caviar on the menu. That’s not imaginary or from some far-flung country – it’s reality here in Aotearoa. Oceania Healthcare just officially opened ‘The Helier’ – a retirement apartment and aged-care complex in the Auckland suburb ...
The USA and China are beefing, Winston Peters is getting sued by some Australian guy, and Helen Clark and Don Brash are friends now? Here’s everything you need to know about Aukus but were too afraid to ask. What is Aukus?Aukus, which stands for Australia, the United Kingdom, and ...
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Opinion: The cold weather and spikes in power demand have been well handled by the electricity system The post No need to shock with a fake crisis appeared first on Newsroom. ...
Asia Pacific Report About 1000 people in Aotearoa New Zealand gathered for a two-hour rally in central Auckland today and marched down Queen Street and returned to Aotea Square to mark the Nakba three days early — and protest over Israel’s genocidal war on Gaza. They called for an immediate ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra As it looks to an election next year when holding up Labor’s female vote will be vital, Treasurer Jim Chalmers has declared Tuesday will bring “a budget for mums and middle Australia”. “The primary ...
By Repeka Nasiko in Suva “Justice has won,” says Fiji’s acting Director of Public Prosecutions John Rabuku following the sentencing of former prime minister Voreqe Bainimarama and former police commissioner Sitiveni Qiliho. Speaking to The Fiji Times, Rabuku said that while they welcomed the judgment by acting Chief Justice Salesi ...
The foreign affairs minister has landed in Solomon Islands for the first leg of his Pacific tour, and an audience with the newly elected Prime Minister. ...
On an unusually hot night in January 2019, a little boy’s lifeless body was found face up in a small town’s sewage oxidation pond. To the police, it was an open and shut case: three-year-old Lachlan Jones had run away from his home in the Southland town of Gore, climbed ...
PNG Post-Courier New Zealand High Commissioner Peter Zwart and PNG Defence Minister Dr Billy Joseph welcomed a C-130 Hercules to Port Moresby this week to support Papua New Guinea’s response to the March 24 earthquake and recent severe flooding. “Papua New Guinea has requested New Zealand’s assistance to transport emergency ...
Grub Street King Luxon rode through the streets Of King’s Landing, and was troubled By the sight of hungry urchins in the mud. “Who would be the best of my Lords To deal with this negative optic?” He pondered. The answer came to him instantly. “Seymour!” he said to himself. ...
“The Bill does not provide environmental protection, good quality decision making, certainty, public participation or speed. It should be withdrawn.” ...
RNZ News Television New Zealand has breached its collective agreement with the E tū union when deciding on discontinuing programmes, the Employment Relations Authority has ruled. It was announced in March that 68 staff members who work for news programmes Midday and Tonight, consumer justice programme Fair Go, current affairs ...
Asia Pacific Report Barangay New Zealand’s Rene Molina has interviewed the country’s first Filipino Green MP Francisco Hernandez who was sworn into Parliament yesterday as the party’s latest member. This is the first interview with Hernandez who replaces former Green Party co-leader James Shaw after his retirement from politics to ...
An Australian Strategic Policy Institute report says Pillar Two could raise the industry to state of the art capability - or "crush" it "under the weight of the globe's biggest player". ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marlene Longbottom, Associate Professor, Indigenous Education & Research Centre, James Cook University ShutterstockThis article contains information on deaths in custody and the violence experienced by First Nations people in encounters with the Australian carceral system. It also contains references to ...
“Instead of following along countries that are investing in death and better ways of killing people faster, we need to invest in life and in making Aotearoa a fair, just and equitable place where everyone has what they need for a dignified life.” ...
MARIAMENO KAPA-KINGI, TPM MP FOR TAI TOKERAU This Government will not waver in its mission to exterminate Māori. CHRISTOPHER LUXON Oh well look you know I don’t think that hard-working Kiwis want to hear language like that. It’s just really unhelpful rhetoric. My Government is genuinely committed to advancing outcomes ...
The body positivity movement started with women confronting the unrealistic expectations and unrepresentative portrayals of them in media and advertising. Men weren’t part of it … their bodies hadn’t been sexualised to the same extremes and they didn’t really need it. But now that’s changed. And in a warped sort ...
The New Zealand comedy legend takes us through her life in television, including the time she hugged Elton John and the unshakeable legacy of a girl named Lyn. In 1981, Ginette McDonald stood on the stage of Auckland’s St James Theatre and directly addressed Queen Elizabeth II. It was a ...
An essay by Lily Duval from the just-released anthology Otherhood: Essays on being childless, childfree and child adjacent.I was 22 when my friend Alice gave birth in the living room of our pokey Addington flat. She laboured in the blow-up pool for hours. Garish fish swam along the inflated ...
Ella Borrie on the best books about motherhood she’s come across so far. Over the past few years I’ve been drawn to books about motherhood. I’m fascinated by the joys and horrors of becoming a parent. The question of children also feels more pressing than it used to. It’s like ...
Out of gift ideas for mum? You can’t go wrong with a bottle of toilet cleaner and a new squeegee. Emily Writes is the writer and editor of Emily Writes Weekly. This week marks five years since I published a post on The Spinoff about Mother’s Day marketing titled ‘A ...
My husband is posted overseas for 12 months and I’m armed with an expensive, newfangled vibrator. Will I miss him? The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.A few days after my husband leaves, a new sex toy arrives at the front door. Nestled ...
Jaimie Baird’s new book Here Today Gone Tomorrow is a record of four decades of graffiti and street art in Wellington, told through more than 1,200 photographs. He spoke with Joel MacManus about what inspired the book. How did you first get interested in photographing street art? I remember ...
Editor Madeleine Chapman looks back at a busy week where food of all political leanings dominated. Sometimes you’re just going about your week thinking you’ve got a good handle on what might be coming as far as news topics and then someone (usually a politician) says something so ridiculous that ...
In a week of cold rain and frost, the climate in courtroom four upstairs at the Invercargill courthouse was simmering with restrained indignation. At times it felt like the famous Mexican standoff scene from Reservoir Dogs, or, as someone watching the proceedings described it, there was so much throwing of ...
A banner notification alerts me to the fact that I’ve received an Instagram message from @felicity.loves. She always comments on my posts. I shouldn’t have opened the message, but clicked on the notification before rationalising this. OMG! Are you in Wellys? X I debate not replying, but Instagram will inform ...
In Melbourne’s hardscrabble western suburbs where AFL – Aussie rules football – is a state religion, Callum Donaldson has been quietly grafting away, four months into an odyssey that he hopes will take him to another promised land: the NRL. It was a solid 2023 for the softly spoken 20-year-old ...
Pacific Media Watch Television New Zealand Pacific correspondent Barbara Dreaver has been made an Officer of the New Zealand Order of Merit for services to investigative journalism and Pacific communities in a ceremony at Government House, reports 1News. She has been the Pacific correspondent for 1News since 2002, breaking many ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Tuesday’s budget will respond to the deepening public agitation over Australia’s housing shortages by pouring new money into crisis accommodation for women and children, social housing and infrastructure. A specially-convened national cabinet late Friday ticked ...
By Kaneta Naimatu in Suva Journalists in the Pacific region play an important role as the “eyes and ears on the ground” when it comes to reporting the climate crisis, says the European Union’s Pacific Ambassador Barbara Plinkert. Speaking at The University of the South Pacific (USP) on World Press ...
Aldora Itunu is back in the Black Ferns squad after a three-year absence. The last of her 24 internationals was an underwhelming loss to France (7-29) in Castres to conclude the disastrous 2021 Northern Tour. The powerhouse prop won a Rugby World Cup in 2017 and thought she was done. ...
The fight to control major transport policy and projects in Auckland has burst into the open again, with councillors rejecting Mayor Wayne Brown’s latest attempt to steer things more under his influence. Councillors from the left and right broke ranks on the mayor’s bid to control Auckland Transport more directly ...
Exhausted by the general election campaign, horrified by the twilight zone of coalition negotiations, distracted by the silly season and waiting for the honeymoon to begin, Raw Politics has been in hibernation since October. From today, we’re back. Our weekly political video show and podcast returns for ...
By Patrick Decloitre, RNZ Pacific correspondent French Pacific desk Authorities in the small town of Boulouparis have commemorated Armistice Day on May 8 with a new memorial honouring New Zealand soldiers who were stationed in New Caledonia during World War II. The ceremony took place in the township on the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sara Dehm, Senior lecturer, international migration and refugee law, University of Technology Sydney The High Court unanimously ruled today that the Australian government can keep asylum seekers in immigration detention indefinitely in cases where they do not “voluntarily” cooperate with their own ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kim Munro, Lecturer, Creative Industries and Digital Media, University of South Australia Twenty-four hours after the release of Macklemore’s pro-Palestine protest song Hind’s Hall on social media on May 7, the video had already notched up over 24 million views. In ...
Failing to anticipate the complexity of the consenting system is being cited as the the current builder's shortcomings, an Infrastructure Commission review says. ...
Failing to anticipate the complexity of the consenting system is being cited as the the current builder's shortcomings, an Infrastructure Commission review says. ...
Winston is on the election warpath. He's going to deal with errant Maori and eliminate all forms of wokery from government. But, I've always found amongst the bluster and bs that is Winston, there's usually a gem of a policy to be found. This time around it's his suggestion to make it a criminal offence to obstruct or assault emergency first responders. Winston probably got that idea from a similar British law that's recently been updated allowing up to two years jail for offenders.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/sep/15/maximum-jail-term-attacking-emergency-workers-doubled
In my experience offenders in NZ fall mainly into two groups: snotty nose middleclass white kids who have never been told 'no,' or feral gang bangers who threaten emergency workers with assault or death if they don't fix their bro on the spot.
The police response in those incidents has always bemused me. Police don't generally arrest offenders on the spot, but try moving them on multiple times.
A good law if implemented by any political party.
A major tidal energy project is up and running in the Orkneys: see https://orbitalmarine.com/o2/
It is a floating turbine system that seems innovative. Its rotors can provide power no matter which way the tide is running.
Shouldn't we be doing the same thing in NZ? There must be a likely site in Cook Strait where there are strong currents.
Coupled with Wellington's wind farms, it could mean a huge reduction in reliance on fossil fuels.
It’s been tried here at least once.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaipara_Tidal_Power_Station
Thanks for the link to the lecture – I'll watch it.
Your welcome. it makes for grim listening but its always better to know what we have to work with…and its a lot less than most assume.
HT, Thanks for the topic and link. There must be a multitude of sites around Aotearoa for such turbines. Basically 4 times a day guaranteed output that could be used in conjunction with our hydro storage.
I am wondering if The Standard should have a blanket ban on the word Terf.
Quite apart from it being derisory and anti women it does not describe the role or point of view of women who have concerns.
Terf is a trans generated word of distain, disgust etc at women. It does not describe our views merely their reaction to our views.
It is not required in the discussions we have on TS.
There is an alternative to describe us and that is GCF
Sometimes when we are quoting the quote may include 'Terf 'we could put the word (sic) in brackets after, so '…..terf(sic).
sic
used in brackets after a copied or quoted word that appears odd or erroneous to show that the word is quoted exactly as it stands in the original…..
https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-en/
PS I am aware that some GCF have tried to reclaim this word as a way of being sarcastic about the 'cause'
Thank you. I call it out wherever I see it. And you are right, there are groups that use it -often disguised, to indicate that this is a group for women, not for sex mimics. I belong to a crafting group that uses the initials – which was set up when obvious autogynephiliac men invaded a couple of knitting and crochet groups demanding that we "validate" their "femaleness" and their various self modeled constructions.
I really don't believe in banning words. If people want to call me a terf, that is up to. them. It usually alerts to the fact that they have no good arguements re gender ideology and is part of a playbook of no debate and smearing. But I appreciate your point Shanreigh.
I commented on Mickey Savages post "debating with Nazis" that I was reading an interesting book called Bad Arguements (its a compilation of 100 arguements writtern by various phiolosphy academics). One was about when people bring Hitler and Nazis into a debate. Those who bring up Nazis in an arguement are seen as conceding defeat of the arguement. I tend to regard Terf the same way. Although I do like the commenter who suggested Terf be changed to Perf (Penis exclusionary radical feminist)
I agree.
A replacement word will soon be found to dehumanise the "other", so let it continue. The accusations also lose their potency, when universally applied.
I prefer PERL – penis exclusionary radical lesbian. Happy to put my hand up for either of those.
perf is too close to perv.
penis exclusionary radical vagina?
People who believe in polite and productive discussion tend to avoid inflammatory words or words that deliberately misrepresent the position of others. I do not call people "Nazis", I try to avoid "fascist", though I might use "proto-fascist" to suggest a tendency. I do not call people "TERFs" and I do not refer to transwomen as "he", though I might if the trans identity was clearly an intentional ruse.
However, none of this is the point. I don't imagine for a minute that my personal beliefs are grounds for policing the English lexicon.
Polonius: What do you read my lord?
Hamlet: Words, words, words…
There have been some excellent responses so far all of which I agree with.
The best argument is that allowing the word does let us easily identify the bad faith commentators as most good faith commentators would use (sic) or other words to distance themselves from the slur.
Faith restored!
it doesn't get used that often on TS as a slur. Where people use it as a descriptor I point out the problems and link to terfisaslur. I have also moderated on its use and will continue to do so. If you see someone using it, you can reply to any comment of mine with a link and I will take a look.
It's a common tactic, using words that aren't 100 % accurate but are about the vibe.
For example using anti-vaxxer to describe attendees of the Parliament Grounds protest, regardless of how often it was pointed out how inaccurate it was.
I use/d anti vax/anti vaxxer as a shorthand to describe people who were not getting the vaccination, ie for non medical reasons, did not want others to and thought that by offering vaccinations that Govt was over reaching in some way. Not to mention the people who had been deluded by various people saying the vaccines had nanobots, magnets, trackers etc. I also could not see why being anti vaccination also often meant being anti wearing a mask
To me the protection of sick people in hospital, older people in rest homes, children was more important to the country as a whole during the time of the emergency powers used in the pandemic. These were more important than to cater for people who did not believe the science.
I think in less fraught times we are more accepting of those with this type of view.
The parliamentary protest was a gathering of all sorts of people who felt they had a grievance. Not just those concerned about Covid.
Hence my dad's advice to me when he knew he could not stop me marching. protesting
'Have a look to the left of you , have a look to the right of you
If you don't like what you see, leave'
People coat tail onto to causes.
Using words like T**f, a word used by the transgender community (around 3% perhaps) of the population) to describe 51% of the population seems a little different to me.
Turf the terf
As weka explained in another thread, banning is mostly for behaviour (https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943140). I think we can tolerate offensive words in robust debate, even when they’re not (at all) necessary and/or can be avoided. The seriousness of being offensive depends on context, intent, and perception. That said, in rare occasions we temporarily put words or word combinations in the Auto-Moderation list (filter) to pre-emptively capture comments from problematic comments who show recidivist behaviour (i.e. they won’t listen or are slow-learners). (NB sometimes, the word itself is not offensive but highly idiosyncratic of the offending commenter). If it is serious enough, we leave a Mod note in the comment when we release it from the Auto-Mod queue. When things settle down again, we remove the word, also because it creates extra work for the Mods. NB most bans are preceded by at least one warning because we encourage positive behaviour and prefer not to ban. You may also have noticed that occasionally we delete serious insults in comments and mark this by [deleted]. This can be for various reasons too, but generally it is to avoid the start of flame wars, without actually changing the content of the comment. I think we have it about right on this site
I agree TS has it about right. I was sick & tired of reading that word repeated ad nauseam by people who really should know better if they were aware of the issues (not on TS so much but other places)
I am now accepting that to leave it & mark it say is better to identify the bad from the good.
A woman, Katrina Biggs, with 'But the Emperor has no clothes' look at the violence against women, women's issues and how this has culminated in the award of Young NZer of the Year to an anti women, anti women's rights, anti freech speech advocate
She concludes:
https://aboldwoman.substack.com/p/young-new-zealander-of-the-year-award?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email
Helen Joyce also has a good piece up:
https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-42/
Yes a lot of peope on TS don't read the Daily Blog, but Martyn wrote a column on this and the comments were full of people saying they will withdraw their accounts from Kiwibank.
As a KB customer, I hope Grant Robertson will bail the bank out if it fails due to a rush on money..
It is truly disgusted that Lal was awarded young NZ of the year. He never condemned the violence, does anyone know if he was more actively involved in it?
Of what Lal et al don't realize is that this is that this provides another wake up call for all those members of the genneral public who haven't quite realized how anti women trans rights activists are.
Chole Swarbrick defended the protesters (and failed to condemn the violence) saying it was a joyous celebrations of trans (or words to that effect)
Such a disappointment seeing Chloe use all the meaningless cliches
Trans Joy eh?
Oh the Rapture!
Its not the trans protesters that I find objectionable, its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. Surely the antithesis of feminism.
"its the capture of a valid message espoused by Terf women by their misogynistic, transphobic, homophobic Nazi support crew. "
What valid message? And how is it captured?
Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here.
Oh ffs. Is that really where you’re at? 🙄
It's crystal clear the post is referencing trans supporters having their placards taken off them.
Psych Nurse is of course at liberty to confirm or deny.
What post? There is no link on this thread.
Psych Nurse's post directly above the one you replied to and quoted 🙄
Whaaa?
Some valid message that "Terfs " endorse has been taken up by xxxx – various insults xxxx -Nazi support crew
But what is that valid message?
Psych nurse?
Any message on anyone's placard or banner contains a valid message to them holding it, whether you agree with it or not.
My clearly stated opinion is the nature of the debate shown here is quite deceitful.
And even if it's not a sign or banner but just the pro trans message in general, it's still perfectly valid for those who hold or espouse it.
Even if it is built on hate or fabrication?
as far as I can tell psych nurse is objecting to GC positions being coopted by Nazis.
You're correct, mate, me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick, but validity is still the purview of the holder.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick"
I asked questions of psych nurse to clarify – whereas you made an assumption – and ran with it – so you include me in your pseudo-acknowledgement above?
Why don't we just wait for psych nurses reply?
I didn’t need to wait. As an honest person, I admit I probably misread the post, and have now acknowledged it publicly.
Guessing you are well practiced…
Don't know why you're laughing at my honesty but anyone reading can consider both our points, and see who answers sincerely.
Edit: Posted before your edit.
"…me and Molly appear to have got the wrong end of the stick".
Sincerely.
@The Al1en
"Sincerely"
Molly, psych nurse's comment was straightforward and easily comprehended.
Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading.
Robert.
I only asked for clarification, and was not the only one who didn't find it "straightforward and easily comprehended."
The Al1en also made an assumption, like you right now, and apologised.
Psych nurse clarified several hours later.
"Sometimes when we hold fixed views on an issue and we rush to defend a position, it gets in the way of good comprehension, especially when we are reading."
Link to where I made any comment in this thread based on assumption.
Or preferably, take heed of your own words, because I am not the one who needs them.
"Purposefully ignoring the rest because I'm trying to understand what your main point is here."
I found the whole comment simple to comprehend.
Must've been having a moment of clarity in an otherwise befuddled life.
… alternatively, befuddlement IS clarity to you.
I wondered at your criticism of my reading comprehension and so tested myself with psych nurse's comment. I was pleased by the result. You might reflect upon your own response.
The Al1en did.
Robert, if you expect me to retract my justified criticisms of your engagement methods, then you'll be waiting a while.
If you persist in asking me to apologise – for something I did not do – just because The Al1en did apologise for something he did, then, again, you'll be waiting a while.
Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments either by giving them no merit, or by considering if they do indeed have merit and improving.
What you appear to be doing here is lashing out, which contributes nothing to any political discourse.
This comment is a prime example of where this kind of exchange ends up, so I'm leaving this – and any other such threads (unless provoked when my patience is low, and my energy is high – which would be against my better judgement).
I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis.
Let's see how that goes.
"Robert, if you expect me to retract…"
I don't.
"If you persist in asking me to apologise"
I'm not.
"Deal with your hurt feelings resulting from my comments…"
I have none.
"What you appear to be doing here is lashing out…"
Seriously?? Lashing out???
Hmmm…
"I will ask if you could refrain from this type of comment stalking when interacting with me, when your responses contain only trite sentences, no pertinent information and zero political analysis."
Ask away.
Our cognitive styles seem not to mesh.
No worries.
I'll hold the fort while you are away.
Peace and love etc.
Exactly, woman have every right complaining about transwomen sharing toilets, changing rooms and sport with transwomen, but they need to chose their allies. Misogynists, homophobes and transphobes are not friends. What is it that's said about lying with dogs.
OK I will wade in, if all you have are flogged out labels and sneers – you have lost the argument.
As human beings trans people, like anyone else, had the right to demand the same access to legal rights and human dignity as anyone else. No-one here for one second has denied you this.
What you then went and did was to collapse your entire humanity down to your mere sexual identity. And then demand everyone else accept every implication of this.
I agree, but I see the problem being less about KJK and her associations with the far right, than the fact that the left/liberals used No Debate to shut down progressive GC voices. That's why KJK exists the way she does. There are conservative people with skin in this game. If we want to win, we have to empower progressives to use their voice, or the whole thing will be framed within conservative values, and that doesn't serve women or trans women.
Weka – Frank's usually supported here; what do you make of the points he's presenting?
"
By now, Kelly-Jay Keen-Minshull (aka, Posie Parker) has come and gone. Her mission – to amplify a particularly pernicious form of transphobia (under the cloak of “women’s rights”) – an abject failure. As a marketing exercise to peddle her wares, it went well.
A self-style "woman’s rights activist" Keen-Minshull/Parker has strident views, including rejecting trans women as women. She has been active throughout Britain, Scotland, Australia, and United States.
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
https://frankmacskasy.substack.com/p/5-reasons-why-provocateur-parkers
In February 2019, Keen-Minshull/Parker harassed Sarah McBride, Human Rights Campaign National Press Secretary, and trans woman, in the United States’ Capitol Building. The verbal abuse, including mis-gendering and making offensive slurs, was videographed and uploaded onto the internet."
HRC is an organisation that should be able answer the questions put forward by KJK while actively lobbying for legislation on those issues;
This is a blogpost on the HRC -1st of 3:
https://www.the11thhourblog.com/post/all-aboard-the-human-rights-campaign-and-the-making-of-transgender-industry-leaders-part-i
A bit of background to your quoted item here:
https://twitter.com/WomensLibFront/status/1300574218908823552?s=20
Now, you don't have to believe or be convinced by such accounts, but you have been introduced to a different perspective.
People are able to have a view, whether it is supported by the facts or evidence is quite another thing.
I have found Frank Macskasy a bit reactionary over the last few years and so stopped reading him. Perhaps I'll start again.
I've found I cherish the progressives more and am willing to read from any side and some times time does not allow diving into Frank's views.
As people think more deeply about the issues on 25/3 we are getting more comment from NZ on the implications for free speech, women's rights. This seemed to be the preserve of writers from overseas in the immediate aftermath. They seemed to be seeing what was happening more clearly than our media did or more likely wanted to (seeing at they had worked themselves into a truly tiny corner)
https://www.stuff.co.nz/opinion/131660282/damien-grant-were-having-a-free-speech-moment-it-isnt-going-well
……
"The answer to Kim Hill’s question – why did Posie Parker require protection – is because Hill, Minister Wood, O’Brien, Lal and even Justice Gendall had all contributed to an environment where the use of violence was not only being legitimised, but had become a moral necessity.
We have graduated to a cultural landscape where commercial intimidation and even physical violence is permissible against people if their views are deemed unacceptable by the cultural, political and media leadership.
Those in positions of responsibility may wish to reflect on this, rather than stoking further escalation."
I don't always agree with Damien Grant but I do on this.
I am also concerned at the treating of the Ministership as some sort of private fiefdom where instead of getting measured comment on issues within the portfolio we get pronouncements or personal views driven along by the pronouncers being a Minister. (Granted the media seem unable to unlink the two and this does not help)
Marama Davidson seems to be one. You know I don't care about your breathless personal views about the trans community but I do care that you had neither the wit nor sense of reality to work out that any comment supporting or minimising the use of violence against people you disagree with was not appropriate.
You know being quite frank 'I couldn't give a big rats a***' what your personal views are Michael Wood and find them quite inappropriate and calling into question the decision making of the officials of the department you are the Minister of. I would have had much more respect had you stood behind the process and supported this.
I would paraphrase Abraham Lincoln – Quote – Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
"Better to remain silent on issues out of your depth than to comment and to remove all doubt'.
An excellent resumé by Frank Macskasy. Thank you Robert.
I highlight the following excerpt:
"Context: This image was circulated throughout social media:
.
It was presented by Keen-Minshull/Parker’s followers and various far-right individuals that the silver object beside her throat was a knife (or alternatively, scissors). It was supposedly "evidence" of thuggery by counter-protestors at Albert Park.
The object was a cellphone, held by one of her minders. The image had been cropped for maximum misrepresentation-effect.
Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation."
Need I say more.
Anne, this slur about the scissors was comprehensively walked back some days ago……Molly & Weka had a discussion.
Perhaps you and Frank could elucidate.
The point I took from this picture was that it was so dangerous out there for KJM that her security first had to close guard, walking with someone with arms and shoulders linked around her, to actually having to lift her for speed so she was almost parallel to the ground.
It was a deliberate attempt to help promote the image of mass thuggery coming from the protesting crowd. The kind of tactic used by right wing extremists that the woman in question so obviously is aligned to, despite her howls of protest to the contrary. In fact the more she denies it, the more one knows its true.
@Anne
More details from whoever posted the original screen shot from the livestream, would be good to know. But unfortunately, I don't know who that was. The images were being deleted and/or corrected even as I was having a conversation with weka, only a few hours after the event.
Many were watching the livestream concerned that they were seeing a woman in extreme physical danger. The livestream shows a degree of the chaos and confustion, and it abruptly cut out for several minutes in the middle of it.
https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20
In that resulting distress, people were looking for answers and details, and I also thought this was information coming through. But as I said, people with saner heads at a time of confusion, almost immediately reined that interpretation in.
The social media accounts I followed, corrected and or deleted and did not circulate that image further. (Mind you, I don't have a Facebook or any other social media account, so I don't know if this is true on those platforms).
It never really got traction in the social media environment which I inhabit thanks to the integrity of commentators like weka.
Thanks to her timely and accurate reminder, I spent several hours posting corrections like this (along with others) on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/EdgeWatching/status/1639541306056929280?s=20
That interpretation disappeared quite quickly (within 24hrs) from GC discourse.
Do a couple of searches on Twitter “posie parker ” + “scissors” or “KJK” + “scissors” to see who continued to promulgate this story.
Thank you Molly. I wonder am I to go on for the rest of my life resisting people who use this and other unproven points about the so-called 'lovely, sun loving, fun loving protest, at Albert Park on 25/3.
Did the woman with the fractured skull run into someone's opened sunscreen lotion bottle or the keep cup with the decaf double shot hazelnut chai latte in it?
/Sarc
Well clearly the lovely Frank is one.
Why?
What would be his rationale for repeating something that has been debunked…..I couldn't possibly imagine. /sarc
That was just one example mentioned and I concede it was quickly discarded by mainstream media at the least. But I recommend this morning's media watch programme on the subject from non-partisan folk who were actually present at the scene:
https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/mediawatch/audio/2018883958/media-mismatch-on-an-out-of-control-mob
There was a lot of 'unreality' bandied about by the usual local suspects as well as the overseas media. It always amuses me how much more coverage the reporting of false data receives over the actual facts of a particular situation.
@Anne
Thanks for conceding the point regarding the image.
However, what point is it that you are trying to make with the RNZ link?
Is it that because some people did not witness it, the violence against women has been exaggerated?
I just want to note, that in the footage of the woman being beaten I can see my daughter and partner about 3m away, and they had no idea that it was taking place directly behind them.
The noise was painfully loud at within the rotunda area that the #LetWomenSpeak attendees were in, once those demonstrators broke through.
CPAC is a political group – it's What We Believe page is here:
https://www.conservative.org/what-we-believe/
Apart from the wholesale support of capitalism (expected) the rest is fairly straightforward.
I don't know the full details of the sponsorship deal – and to be honest I don't care that much. IIRC, Kellie-Jay Keen says that CPAC offered the sponsorship deal partly to give the #LetWomenSpeak events liability cover under their organisation. The cost of liability cover for #LetWomenSpeak events was/is prohibitively high. So the formal sponsorship, removes that expense.
(There is a video where this is related, but I'm not going to trawl through it all to find it, but will post if I come across or remember where to look).
"Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion."
Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…
@Robert Guyton
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943235
My request:
Your response:
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-01-04-2023/#comment-1943242
*Ask away"
and this as a complete response:
"Thought you were talking about the anti-vaxx crowd for a moment…"
I'll be noting such stalking from now on.
It'll be a numbers exercise, my impression of you is becoming increasingly fixed.
Macskasy's article, and the responses to Robert Guyton's comment on same, highlight the fact that, when it comes to 'Posie Parker', some opinions are poles apart.
Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell whether she can reach the ‘heights’ of Pauline Hanson – based on PP’s recent encounters down under, imho she has a shot – exclusivity has popular appeal.
A new age of democratic extremes [4 November 2022]
"Keen-Minshull has political aspirations. Time will tell if she can reach the heights of Pauline Hanson – based on her recent time down under, she has a shot, imho – exclusion is the name of her 'game'."
Hmmm.. more reason to take a cautious, cynical view of the woman, imo.
Don't know about cynical, but I’ll not throw ‘PP caution’ to the wind.
Perhaps Robert meant sceptical, but I’m cynical about that 😉
I did mean "sceptical", Incognito.
I've been, and am presently being, distracted by a 4-man South Korea film crew that has been filming our every move over the past 3 days. I'm just managing to fit in quick glimpses of TS as they set up this scene and that scene, and so am finding it difficult to always choose the right worm.
It was a joke).
All good, Robert, although some here consider it not a laughing matter.
I assume the filming is not for a K-Pop documentary called Guyton Style.
Yes. That is a strategy that was outlined a while ago, and many GC's know of it.
Many who have concerns have been unable to raise them in existing parties and find themselves politically homeless. Their political representatives seemed to be incapable of having a discussion.
When the idea was first mooted in GC circles to create a party where protest votes could be given, it was treated as a passing fancy.
But the strategy of such a move became apparent.
The creation of a political party would increase the likelihood of the discussion occurring in the political sphere. There is also the added benefit of political engagement and speeches being adequately protected by the authorities. Thereby, avoiding such debacles similar to that we had in Auckland last week.
Elaine Miller, used a similar strategy when contesting a Scottish by-election last year.
https://theedinburghreporter.co.uk/2023/01/corstorphine-murrayfield-by-election-elaine-miller/
KJK AFAIK was a Labour party member. I don't know if she has long term ambition to be a politician, I do know that she (and her support team) are constantly looking to get a public conversation going by whatever legitimate means they can.
I think this might have some success in that objective.
If your knowledge is right, then when and why KJK left the party.
KJK occasionally mentions it on videos or interviews, but it is hard to search videos if you don't know the exact ones.
Here though is a 2018 article from the Spectator. Sorry, I can't quote anything, – I've moved from my phone to here to post the link, and I am out of free articles:
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/labour-s-refusal-to-accept-the-definition-of-a-woman/
IIRC, the "woman – adult human female "billboard was put up outside a Labour party conference, as women were unable to get Labour politicians to meet or acknowledge concerns raised by party members.
Thanks for that link to the 2018 article in The Spectator. Looks like KJK was a Labour party supporter, so probably a member too.
Roger Douglas and Richard Prebble left Labour; Ruth Richardson and Don Brash left the Nats. They found(ed) a new home – ACT.
Which of NZ's political parties might have policies that align best with KJK's intention to "campaign on the basis of repealing the Gender Recognition Act" and "erase the word 'gender'"?
"Keen-Minshull/Parker was not brought to Australia by any feminisist organisation. Her presence was sponsored by the conservative, Trump-affiliated, Conservative Political Action Conference organisation.""
If that is the case, you need say no more, imo.
Such information casts a shadow over the bright and breezy claim that the woman was "merely an advocate for women".
Has someone actually said
"merely an advocate for women".
Because women see no merely about it. She is an advocate for women.
In my view it is time that people started realising that women are quite grown up, we exercise our brains, we can reference, we can assimilate/discern across multiple often competing view, we can see through charlatans and having done all this – we can make up our own minds about the message. In short to use the vernacular 'We can walk and chew gum'.
I see no need to disregard a message because the person may have political aspirations or because she need funding to meet insurance levies or for whatever reason mainstream funding sources were not aviable to her.
Don't you think that the messages she has given about women's rights and women's issues are worth a look?
Trustworthy groups such as Speak Up for Women and Mana Korereo Wahine support the kaupapa of Let Women Speak which is what it is all about.
In the No Debate Self ID crock the voices of women and our concerns were silenced.
You know if a red giraffe wearing thigh waders came to NZ, sponsored by the Pink Panthers Association to moo (or whatever giraffes do) about women's issues I'd go and see it (with a translator of course).
Please focus on the issues that have been raised and let us know why the concerns of women should not be addressed.
Trust us too.
We have done the mahi, researched the issues and the people. You don't need to second guess or 'warn' us
Actually KJM's work has received a huge boost in NZ with people being able to see that there are groups determined to restrict free speech, to 'deserving' people only, and restrict it by the use of force if necessary.
A joke?
I’m sorry I am a women and I don’t have a sense of humour attuned to that kind of ‘joke’ Robert.
My jokes are clearer like
What is brown and goes at 100k through custard?
A prune with an outboard motor.
and
Knock knock
Who’s there
Arthur
Arthur who?
Are there any mince pies left?
My "joke" was concerning the word, "worm", Shanreagh.
Being "mis-taken" seems de rigueur with this issue.
If we can maintain a dignified semi-respect for each other for a while longer, we might (we, being those commenting here) make it through the testing-time.
yeah, I don't see how the Nazis are a support crew. As you say, they're trying to capture the women's rights issues and turn them into bigotry.
the problem with the word terf: terfisaslur.com/
"Attendant crew" more.
Moths to a flame.
Bats to a bleeding toe.
@Robert Guyton…….I cannot see the word worm in the post I am referring to. Is it in one of the links?
I also don't get the Mis-taken unless it is some poor take on miss. But then I am a woman and I've got no sense of humour. I am not away of a testing-time…this implies some sort of ending. I'm not sure this will end.
I can see how easily it would be for a party other than Labour or Greens to swoop in, put up a policy stating that BDM/safe spaces will be reviewed to see if it is fit for purpose for women, and a wave of women will go there, or at least have a close look..
If you want my honest opinion…the way will become clearer if you read, thought about, noted questions, asked them in a genuine manner and then reflected again on the answers. Then asked any queries.
Perhaps you might find it easier to read the rights based arguments that RW males have that enables them to see where we are coming from. RedLogix and TSmithfield have insights here, TS particularly with the chauvinism idea.
This one shot, 'smarty pants' way of interacting when we are trying to help you expand your knowledge is very off putting.
Many of us have had years, literally decades some of us in groups relating to women's issues, some of us have studied issues to stage 3 Uni levels at the time of the 1970s/80s wave, others since. Others of us have knowledge on human rights, civil rights, unions and are making the link through this. Others have lived the experience of the shifting sands of woman's issues through the fights to be able to live with our loved ones, marry/civil union them. I would venture to say there is not much that Women commentators on TS don't know about the issues.
We love to help those with a genuine interest.
"Eveyone I don't like is a Nazi" is a contender for most annoying feature of the 'progressive' left. It's appallingly disrespectful to victims of the Nazis, for a start.
Just as annoying is the political right's way of proclaiming that anyone from the left is a communist or Stalinist (Jacinda has been called such many a time) except that oddly enough it hardly raises an eyebrow anymore despite Stalin's appalling record on human rights.
Both the left and right have spawned monsters. But to be fair the legitimate, moderate right has fully, loudly and repeatedly repudiated the Nazis and fascism ever since the end of WW2. While not the same could be said for the broad left of it's catastrophic historic embrace of marxism. I still see plenty of minimising and weaseling on this and a persistent blindness to the modern forms it has morphed into.
Of course this does not mean there are not extremists on both sides who still embrace the old madness'. Mainly for the attention-seeking shock value I sometimes think.
When you boil all the rhetoric away, there is actually little difference between the extreme left and extreme right. They use the same methods to control people – violence and intimidation.
Wait until you see this one, it is hilarious.
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1642045592158507009
Frankly they can have woman. I’ve always thought it was a slightly offensive word as if we are something just tacked onto the side of men, literally wife man. About as offensive as woman being created from Adam’s rib. I am in favour of women now othering themselves as femme or femina.
100% Psycho Milt.
The word is being used so often that it becomes meaningless as a slur.
Those who throw it about should do some reading / watching / listening to the vast amount of documentation available about The Holocaust Then hopefully they may start to understand what sort of person a real Nazi actually is, rather than just someone who disagrees with them.
It's a common tactic the "no debate" types use to shut down any discussion. (You're a nazi so I don't need to debate with you)
It's the same with words like facist, racist, transphobic, etc.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266
Women in a sorority object to transwoman with visible erect penis in their single sex spaces
It's a girl dick though right?
After an eye-roll at the headline: "…to challenge induction of transgender member", the rest of the article is an interesting read, of the special treatment given to that member in terms of criteria and induction.
The failure of many to understand how in such cases, single-sex provisions for women allow them to just get on with their day, with objectification is astounding.
The article points out clearly some of the impacts.
“The complaint said that witnesses observed Smith sitting in a chair in the living room of the sorority house on multiple occasions staring at members walking in.
“Smith has, while watching members enter the sorority house, had an erection visible” through leggings, the complaint said.
The morning after a sleepover, prior to the Kappa initiation ceremony for new members, Smith’s conduct was described as “inappropriate and threatening,” according to the complaint.
Though Smith did not sleepover, Smith returned to the sorority house the following morning and “stood silently in the corner of the room near the door while other pledges changed from sleeping garments into other clothing,” the lawsuit said.
Smith allegedly saw a woman not wearing a bra change shirts. After that incident, “other Kappa members informed Ms. Doe VI that while watching her” Smith had “become sexually aroused,” the complaint said, and Smith allegedly “repeatedly asked” Doe VI about her romantic attachments after the encounter. “
Reposted link:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/7-sorority-sisters-university-wyoming-sue-kappa-kappa-gamma-challenge-rcna77266
Thanks Molly .I no longer have the facility to copy and paste (frozen touch pad syndrome)
I sympathise.
(I'm using an ancient laptop with keyboard and trackpad issues, so I resort to an onscreen keyboard, or a phone which either has issues with what I'm asking it to do, or that emphasises my fat finger syndrome to the detriment of efficient posting.)
That’s really taking the piss. I’d be surprised if anyone would support this type of behaviour. Even a teenage boy would know that he’s been a bit dodgy.
Bad or inappropriate behaviour like what is described in the article is not acceptable, and it doesn’t matter who’s doing it.
anyone condoning or justifying it should be called out.
Just not acceptable. Ever.
Exactly. So much of this debate swirls around various arcane ideological rabbit holes, when I just see bad behaviour from weak, immature people with no internal boundaries.
Yea but in instances like this one the bad behaviour is enabled by whichever beauracrats decide that allowing a man to join a sorority is ok. (In fact anyone or any organisation that panders to this nonsense)
The young women involved should never have been put in the position of having to deal with this bad behavior in the first place
it's a feature not a bug.
The large majority of men – men who work for a living, support and provide for their families, act as a good parent, and will sacrifice themselves to protect their family, community and nation – think of this simmering alphabet soup of sex and gender variation as a bit of an aberration; to be tolerated but scarcely embraced.
I have three close family members, each with a relatively rare genetic condition that has had a dramatic impact on their lives. (I may have referenced some of this in the years past, I am not going to detail any here.) The fact of these conditions is something that takes nothing away from their human rights, and expectation that others will treat them with the ordinary courtesy and dignity afforded anyone. Nor does it subtract one jot from my expectation that their disability will be an excuse for bad behaviour. And of course as family they are loved.
But frankly their disability has been a monstrous pain in the arse, changing the course of not just their lives, but all around them. It has massively curtailed their potential to function, achieve and contribute – to be the people they could have been. If any sane person had the a choice in the matter, they would not ask for these disabilities. They are not desirable permutations of the human condition.
Looping then back to the sex/gender issue this comment is about. Where there is a reasonable case for a genetic pre-disposition, or indeed some environmental hormonal disruption that skews the usual path of gender expression – then like most people I am willing to be compassionate and accepting to the extent reasonable on the matter. To repeat this does not diminish their rights as a human being, nor the usual social obligation to treat them with courtesy and respect. You have been very clear on this all the way through and we agree on this.
Just do not try and tell me however these conditions are 'normal', or should be promoted as such. These transgender activists seem to be calling for a free – state-funded – ‘revolutionary genital tourism’ whereby you can, with chemicals or surgery or both, shift at will from being a ‘man’ or a ‘woman’ or surgically/chemically ‘non-binary.' And underlying this it is not hard to discern a deeper agenda to discount the heteronormative family as an 'oppressive patriarchal capitalist' construct that might be swept away in a politicised, subversive firestorm of social disintegration. Political revolution from the inside out, disguised as personal freedom.
The 'progression' of this dark agenda is now fairly plain to see, first getting everyone to accept that gender expression is fluid, now dismantling biological sex, after this I anticipate will come the idea that age itself is a mere social construct.
To be clear, the gender/sexual politics of all this does not interest me much. Rather it is the undeniable erosion of stable family formation and structure across much of the world, and the accompanying social and economic dysfunction that always flows from this, is I believe is larger picture most people are either not seeing, or do not feel safe to speak to.
That is a strategy acknowledged by many women, across the political spectrum. However, it sometimes appears to be more clearly recognised and emphatically stated by those with "conservative" politics and viewpoints.
Some seem to have an internal censor that inhibits open acknowledgement. Whether it is tribal, related to acceptable "progressivism" or just wanting not wanting to be seen aligning with conservatives on any issue – I don't know.
I wrote an article here some time back that touches on this.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/trifold-politics-and-boundaries/
This idea of boundaries should be intuitively familiar to most women; most will have had a bad encounter at some point in their lives with someone who lacks them. And all too often it was an immature, weak male who lacking the ability to control his innate capacity for aggression (both active and passive).
On this point, I would argue that much of the debate around violence misses the point that men are innately more physically dangerous than women. Evolutionary sexual selection ensured we would be this way. On average the difference is not very large, we are a dimorphic species, but not excessively so. But at the extremes almost all of the worst offenders will be male; this being an inevitable outcome of how normal distributions work.
But in my view the idea this is biological reality is a social construct, an 'oppressive, misogynistic patriarchy' is not only rather uninteresting, it simply leads us nowhere useful. Thus decades of talking about the scourge of IPV and no change in the outcome.
The correct solution to violence is not to demand men should be weak and harmless, but they are socialised to control their innate aggression and direct it constructively. The role of childhood rough play, adolescent initiation into manhood, male bonding in challenging situations into effective, disciplined teams are all traditional facilitations of this.
But you are of course correct, none of this acceptable left wing discourse.
Thank you Redlogix.
I have thought long and hard about our institutions such as religion and the patriarchy, including the notion of the nuclear family.
My conclusion is that generally they may be a force for good for many.
But not all especially not all women, I know though that there are many men who have welcomed the results of the fight that women have had on access to maternity leave as it has enable them to participate more in their children's little lives.
In the religion I grew up in women are able to participate to the fullest in ministering.
My ongoing view is that though we may consent to be governed, this is not for all time and we must watch like hawks to make sure the two institutions work for all women.
Unlike other types of activism, referenced by Stuart Munro women's activism is never done.
Stuart Munro13
31 March 2023 at 7:12 pm
I have noted before being shocked after a period out of the public service at the lack of simple knowledge of institutional racism or sexism held by one CE I came across. Held by him and thus promulgated across his managers. This was 2005.
Yes – all good points. In writing the comment above I was aware of two matters I should clarify.
One is that in drawing an analogy between a genetic condition that is physical in nature, and one that expresses itself primarily in a social context – are not the equivalent things in every respect, but the moral argument is broadly similar enough to convey the point I wanted to make.
And yes there is no reason to demand everyone fits within the traditional structures. Growing up in my rather small extended family I had an older aunt who lived in a same sex relationship all her life. This long before it became fashionable as such. As far as we were concerned it was just who she was and there was never any negative comment or disrespect about it. But it was a private matter, and not something she imposed on others.
While I am sure she would have encountered the usual run of bigots and nosey parkers, as far as I am aware she never allowed this to hold her back from living a full and good life, both socially and professionally. And she had a rather marvelous collection of fast cars and motorbikes.
Flippin' heck I just took a really long time to write a post (Which, on my phone is much more of a chore than anyone might think) explaining my point
Wish I had the sharps to have just nailed it like that instead Weka!
haha, usually it's me writing a novel and someone else coming along and saying it more succinctly in a sentence.
Newsroom has a new regular post called "Raw Politics."
I listened to most of it but think it is a "lets explore every little dark place in which to amplify the terrible management of the Government." Spiteful I reckon especially from Tim Murphy.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/pro/the-raw-of-the-crowd?utm_source=Newsroom&utm_campaign=ababd46e25-Week+In+Review+28.03.2023&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_71de5c4b35-ababd46e25-95522477
Watched it ianmac but probably too early to judge. What with the PP debacle and the Stuart Nash sacking, it was largely about Hipkins and his handling of both situations. I thought he handled them as well as could be expected in the circumstances.
I did think it was a bit underhand to claim this govt. was bumbling on (my words) without demonstrating any vision for the future ("bread and butter issues don't cut it" Murphy said) when we have the budget coming up in a matter of weeks where all will be revealed.
First person account of the police involvement in the lead up to the #LetWomenSpeak event, and their actions on the day.
Worth the listen:
https://youtu.be/TJ9FqiNcV80
If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview. It leaves only two possible explanations for the Police failure to maintain public order and protect the mob's victims:
1. The liaison with the women organising the event was genuine, but the officers involved received instructions from their superiors to stand down and leave the women to face the mob alone.
2. The liaison was duplicitous from the start and the officers involved never had any intention of doing what they were agreeing to.
Option 2 may sound far-fetched, but don't underestimate the misogyny infesting the police force. Here's a reminder of how some of them see women:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/the-case-ruined-my-life-says-rickards-accuser/TDKSJMQY5S7U5KLVGPIZZFHD2A/
Linda speaks well throughout the interview despite – as you mention – Plunket's unnecessary interruptions.
(I did enjoy the rebuke at the beginning when Plunket corrected her "rotund" error. A couple of pointed digs around that later for emphasis from a woman that has just had enough).
The personal experience shared sounds credible, even if it does put the police actions and inactions in a very poor light. It does raise real questions about political influence as well.
It also gives voice to the very real threat that women experienced that has been routinely ignored or downplayed by some commentators, media and politicians.
Police not doing the job we think they should be doing's a theme.
Parliament occupation, Brian tamaki's many antics and P houses left untouched whilst the next street over gets chopper, patrol cars etc to sieze a few plants.
Nationals police force….they get in costers goneburger.
The critical point that many have missed – is that once PP and the women attending the event were thoroughly intimidated, and in some cases assaulted, the Police immediately swung into action, bundling PP to safety in a waiting car, then into protective custody first at the Police station, then at the airport and even escorting her onto the plane.
PP herself has had nothing but good things to say about these officers who did look after her after the crisis. Nor is there any reason to think the handful of officers inside Albert Park who were plainly either under-resourced or under instructions to stand down, can be reasonably accused of misogyny.
Nah – like many people here I strongly suspect this was a political act. All the dots are sitting there waiting to be joined up – and it will only take one disgruntled person to do it. Who knows, maybe a certain ex-Minister of Police.
From other accounts from women present, it was security that directed KJK to the stationary police, and perhaps even into the car. The police then had to act, and standard responses kicked in.
The police – despite requests – also did not go to the rotunda to assist the remaining women AFAIK.
If anyone has evidence or accounts that contradict this, I'd appreciate it being posted.
People made 111 calls to the police from the rotunda, afaik these were ignored.
The police had more than enough time to get more bodies on site to manage what was happening. The question is why they didn't.
Plunket had an interview with PP yesterday that covered the events off from her perspective in some detail. I was merely going on that account.
I agree it was probably the people providing her security – and they deserve a good deal more plaudits for their courage than has been credited to them so far – that got her away from the rotunda down to the street.
It is my interpretation that the Police on the ground, once they realised just how out of hand things had gotten, finally had to ignore instructions and do the right thing.
Well worth the read.
Perceptions of Censorship and Moderation Bias in Political Debate Forums.
https://ojs.aaai.org/index.php/ICWSM/article/view/15002/14852
So as to make/keep a debate going what are your conclusions?
Do they apply to any fora you post in?
I suggest you read the FAQ.
Suggesting how the site should be run or complaining about moderation is a sure way to cop a self martyr ban.
But the conclusions in the report does contain the following…
“We found that users holding minority views are more likely to be moderated,even after accounting for levels of potentially offensive behaviors across groups”
Yes I did read that.
I also read the suggestion, that I disagree with, that the rules be excruciatingly specific. The theory of specificism is law or similar is well known. For instance many believe in the fair, large and liberal approach where an incomplete and general list is put up. This tends include rather than exclude ideas, words that are similar to those instanced .
The other approach is that the words are included are all that are covered.
I see the benefit in phrases such as say 'apply commonsense' (fair, large & liberal)
rather than an exhaustive list of words trying to convey this.
The trouble with the exhaustive list approach is that if we leave off an example people may argue that this is not covered by 'commonsense' and so is not covered by the moderation.
I look on moderation as a way to get the best out of us and our arguments thus making them clearer and more persuasive to a greater audience. I don't see it is censorship. Not do I think it is designed to please the majority. We can all slip up and not link or link competently (my common mod)
I can recall several posters espousing uncommon views, who put them up and had a number of posters against them. They put them up again, same thing occurs perhaps several times.
The next post is full of ad homs against other posters, Mods, others with different views. They are moderated. They perhaps put up their immoderate views as they were tired of posters being 'agin their views.
I sometimes think that those holding minority views on site are often those whose views on another site or out in town square NZ are in fact majority views. So they are coming to a site they know does not espouse their views per se (and we have a number of wonderful posters on here who do that).
Anyway, a very interesting read.
I am a great supporter of moderation as I believe it helps us add to the sum of knowledge. It is not designed to make us all support vanilla views, but to draw out the hokey pokeys and boysenberries of this world…..a drawn out metaphor.
As I said, it's well worth the read, and hopefully some comfort to our missing friends.
Yes. There are quite a few who have bailed from this site. I don't blame them. There seems to be a bit of a pack mentality currently developing. You know… 'you gotta completely agree with us cos if you don't we're gonna run you out of town' kind of attitude. Not all commenters (or authors) are guilty of this of course.
Hopefully TS can soon revert to its former environment where people were able to argue the pros and cons (because they always exist) about an issue with reasonable safety – and not a little humour when it was appropriate.
Hopefully knowing they're mostly in good company is a small comfort, Anne.
Adrian gets a bollocking, and so have I over time from LPRENT for supporting Jeremy Corbyn, Bernie Sanders, and Mike Smith. “fool” is how I have been characterised, so I generally self censor to be able to keep posting here.
Which is strange in a way because a look at the archive over a decade or more shows how supportive I have been of Mr Prent for keeping the site going and tackling the likes of SlaterOil in court proceedings.
But hey, no one is perfect and the ultimate counter for whinging posters I guess is obvious–“pay for your own server and site and say what you like!”
I get the feeling that you hadn’t read the article that The Al1en had linked to @ 9.
Your perception of the alleged ‘bollockings’ is a misrepresentation and mischaracterisation stemming from your bias of censorship and moderation on TS and how things work here.
‘Bollocking’, moderating, or banning here is generally not because of viewpoints but of how well or rather how badly one argues for them. Poor arguments can raise the ire of those who don’t suffer fools.
I hope this clears up some of your misunderstandings.
Your quote was so selective it was self-serving. Here’s the full quote with the relevant missing part in my italics:
You referred to this site’s FAQ but, of course, it is in the Policy (https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/).
It is quite evident from your comments in this thread that you were trying to be subtle, as not to fall into the self-martyrdom hole, and that your intention was to take a swipe at moderation here on TS. You can’t have it your way; say what you mean and mean what you say or you say nothing at all.
Your ‘missing friends’ have had their commenting privileges revoked because of their own actions and not because of poor and unfair moderation. Acknowledging my own biases, I think your insinuations (!) are inaccurate and unfair. I do acknowledge that on some ‘hot topics’ moderation can become more biased and heavy-handed than strictly necessary. Mods are not perfect and the ones that don’t have anything left in the tank take a break, tend to leave on their own accord, or have their Moderation rights revoked.
I hope this helps. When you feel the need to criticise Mods and/or Authors please don’t try to be too subtle and clever for your own good
I'm usually brick subtle but obviously not on here, but as for selective, even if your point is true and the level is much smaller than represented, you'd agree it's still there.
It was and is not my point, it is the finding and conclusion of one study of one online group (community), i.e., of Ravelry’s BID. My guess is that it is always present to some degree because it is inevitable when dealing with humans and human [online] interactions. If you were to ask if it is present here and does it present a problem I’d say “No”, but with the qualifiers that I’ve already mentioned in my previous comment. And no, I would not say this because I’m one of the Mods. I’d say it because I comment and occasionally author here, i.e., if it were a problem [for me], and more akin some other NZ political blog sites, I’d leave immediately and stop spending hours of my time on here. TS is the best of the bunch – spoken with real and genuine bias.
Ok
Interesting read, thanks. However, I wouldn’t read too much into it, e.g., extrapolate some of the ‘findings’ and ‘solutions’ to other political blog sites such as TS. Much of it was highly familiar to me, although it seems that none of the authors had any experience as a Mod, but perhaps that was a good thing because it might have induced bias in the study.
The issue that was not addressed is that of bias within the community/commentariat and the six tags attached to comments (that’s what we call them here on TS, as Posts are submitted by people with TS/WordPress Author status). Many a ban occurs because of and after a heated exchange with other commenters here […] and not all come from or start with a stand-alone comment, i.e., more or less entirely self-inflicted by the offender.
You're welcome, and while your here, I think you, personally, do a fairly decent and mostly dispassionate job here.
Appreciated, ta.
It’s tough to act objectively & impartially (neutrally) given my own biases, likes, and dislikes. I do my best.
The comment about the high workload of Mods struck a chord – TS receives more comments a month than the Big Issues Debate (BID) group on Ravelry in that study. Of course, not all comments are equal, but it gives you a bit of an idea of how much the two main Mods here on TS wade through!
If I have time, I will respond to a few other of your comments in this thread, because they leave a few things to the imagination and raise some questions …
To be honest I hope you don't because I don't really feel safe to post freely.
fwiw, I don't feel safe to post freely either.
There are some commenters who don't believe this, but the things people get banned for here are pretty simple and most of them come down to people ignoring moderation and wasting moderator time (I cannot emphasis the latter enough).
I will note an exception however. The last time you were banned, for 6 months, was for calling a woman commenter, who you were politically disagreeing with, "a nasty old cunt". In my time moderating here, that would be at the worst end of the scale for misogyny directed at women. Fortunately its rare and the reason it is rare is because we moderate before it gets to that point, and we curate a culture where its unacceptable.
We have this rule for good reasons,
.https://thestandard.org.nz/policy/
It takes work to create an environment where a range of people want to comment. I've just asked someone to not call a prominent intersex trans person 'it', because it is dehumanising. That kind of language will also put people off from being here. The commenter did a simple acknowledgement, no drama.
All of which is to say that by far and away the easiest way to not get moderated is to not be an arsehole to the moderators. Imo this largely comes down to intent.
In the years I was commenting before becoming an author, I often talked to moderators about their decisions and I don't think I've ever been modded for that. It's entirely possible to talk about moderation here without crossing that line. This is why I see relatively easily when people are saying they don't care about TS moderation (and hence the site). I no longer see any point in spending time trying to sort that out. In election year we are just handing out long bans after the first few times, to curate a better debate for the election and to save ourselves the aggro and time.
Why? What are the things you’re worried about writing that will get you banned? I know I have plenty, though I do remember you frequently getting tied in knots before you became a moderator, which I noticed hasn’t happened since.
it's not safe for me to talk about my safety concerns 🤷♀️
My main point was that it's possible to have robust debate here within the moderation boundaries, and it's not a free for all for anyone.
what I'm trying to say is that, calling women cunts aside, people here don't get generally banned for what they say, they get banned for behaviour, often patterns of behaviour. This is good, because it means it's possible to avoid being banned even if one has controversial views.
Weka I'm constantly amazed at how fair you are, how incredibly articulate, and how at pains you are to filter your own biases.You make this site far more civil than it would be without you, and for that my admiration has no bounds.You may get triggered at times, but you never lash out
🙏
Me too Weka.
The words that were used including c**t are unacceptable to me & I am glad they were moderated. Why do we think that people want to see it written. Sounds like a male only worksite of old.
Shouldn't we pride ourselves on making our arguments/discussions without this sort of stuff.
signed
Mother of ten
Auckland
PS I note though several people on my twitter feed have had other Twitterers having to remove the words as inevitably they use them about others and fall foul of the twitter standards
Teacher's pet!
''If you can endure your way through Plunket's constant, annoying interruptions, this is a gobsmacking interview.''
Cheap shot mainly because Plunket isn't ''Left Media.'' In fact it was the interviewee who was tortuous to listen to, but well worth the effort because, as you say, it was a gobsmacking interview.
My guess is it's probably some configuration of your No1 explanation. Andrew Costa may have been mulling over the issue, and because of his wokeness, worried about a backlash against the police protecting so called Nazis. Another angle is the Rainbow Community is still not 100% comfortable with the police as an organisation.
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/376950/pride-and-police-the-history-issues-and-decisions-behind-the-debate
Plenty of history in the UK of Police doing the enforcement work for gender ideology. Chap called Harry Miller in his "Fair Cop" blog does a good job of exposing it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-59727118
Coster, not Costa.
I fully accept my characterisation of Plunket's interviewing was a personal opinion! I'm torn between being grateful he's providing a platform for these women to be heard and personally annoyed at his interviewing style.
Agree that some variant of option 1 is most likely. Either one is bad, though – can't see any way to put a good spin for the police on what happened.
Strange as it may seem, I agree Plunket can interrupt too much. I think he gets impatient, especially with those with a more ponderous style of talking. Plus you will notice he can't sit still. When I get annoyed I just think '' well, it could have been Duncan Garner at the microphone.
Just returned from the Kimbolton Sculpture Festival. Great morning, wide range of art, stall holders and food.
A couple of observations from snatched excerpts of korero and artists written descriptions of their work. A parade of Mustangs idled their way through the crowd to go on display. More than a couple of comments about how much 'The Greenies' would hate that and 'to enjoy them before they are banned too'. One exhibit was of a heading dog and a cow and calf and a bull. All made out of old pushbike parts and old stuff ftom a shed. The artist reckoned Jacinda and the Greens want to get rid of the cows and this was a reminder of their presence.
Following the fallout of the Shame @ Albert Park, I was thinking these sorts of rural events is perhaps a better environment for a LWS forum/event/tent. Lower key (but still able to be live streamed), organised and run by locals and anyone wishing to silence the speakers would have to pay $15 to do so.
You couldn’t repeatedly punch a senior citizen and get away with it in that community.
lol, so true.
It's a good idea doing LWS away from the main centres.
Kimbolton being a bastion of inclusiveness and all that.
/
https://twitter.com/RawiriTaonui/status/1613117332792152065
The two groups met on Monday night to discuss things and it had been agreed that Ngāti Kauwhata would take part in the event.
But now organiser Tony Waugh said the day had been postponed to a yet-to-be-confirmed date because of uncertainty and the potential for disruption and conflict.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/300793858/settlers-day-event-postponed-due-to-uncertainty-and-potential-for-conflict
That's right, they elected Michael Laws as mayor… no hang on, that was somewhere else.
Indeed, a terrible mistake. But fucked off, twice, and disowned when the community realised the error of it's ways.
"…a terrible mistake."
He was elected mayor twice, then post mayor, y'all had him back as a coucillor and on the Health Board.
Some here might be interested in this:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/life-style/wellbeing/300843919/tiktok-is-addictive-for-many-girls-especially-those-with-depression
Stuff and other MSM have this frustrating habit of not properly referencing let alone linking to the primary source data:
https://www.commonsensemedia.org/research/teens-and-mental-health-how-girls-really-feel-about-social-media
Are the reporters afraid that we will check their articles or put them out of a job?
For some reason, the second part of my comment triggered Wordfence!?
I was thinking about some of RedLogix's posts above.
Something I was pondering is why women supporting PP have received largely positive support from right-wing males, and also left wing to be fair. But not so much the extreme woke-leaning males.
I was wondering if it was due to a degree of chauvinism more likely to be still lingering in us right-wingers. In a positive way though. To the extent that we value women in our lives, and recognise that women tend to be physically weaker than males, and therefore more vulnerable in a physical sense. So, seeing women abused or physically threatened tends to activate the evolutionary protective instincts in males.
On the other hand, many woke males may have had this type instinct replaced with a desire to be protective towards other groups they see as minority, and therefore needing protection, and now just lump biological women in with the majority oppression group.
Perhaps because it gives left leaning men the excuse to be as misogynist as they like under the guise of dumping on the "wrong kind of women".
Well done for a remarkably even-handed analysis; and while it obvious which camp I am located in, I believe you have done justice to the legitimate motives of those in the pro-trans camp as well.
What intrigues me is much less all the minutiae of the public debate around sexual politics, but the broader question around stable families, demographics and how this plays out in terms of social and economic dysfunction. As a psychologist you are surely familiar with the literature that clear confirms that children who grow up in intact, functioning families – ideally with an extended family available – will on average do better in life by almost every measure. Is this not what a legitimate left would want for the people we are supposedly standing up for?
For example, and as we have discussed elsewhere on a recent thread on education, there is a limit to what schools can do, if a positive home environment is lacking.
Of course. The only reason for using the phrase "right wing" was that there was a lot of support for women coming from the likes of kiwiblog. But also, I recognise there are many such as yourself here as well who are on the same wave length.
Not an area I studied in deeply, my study being more along the lines of organisational psychology. But what you are saying seems at least intuitively correct.
But, yes, I think children need stability in their relationships. And, ideally, young boys especially, need to have some positive male role models in their lives in some way or another. Unfortunately, young males often grow up in relationships where their experience of older males is anger and violence. And, it is better for them to be out of those relationships altogether.
Many solo mothers I know intuitively believe their sons need positive male role models, and try to get their sons aligned with positive male role models in one way or another.
The literature suggests male/female differences are in actuality very small. But there are still differences. Not in the way of superiority or anything condescending like that. But more in the way of slight differences due to evolution. So, I think there is value in young men growing up with positive male role models, whether that be through a sporting situation, or club or whatever.
And, I wonder if this is part of the reason why we have more gender confusion now. Because, young men often haven't had that male influence in their lives, and so are confused about what their true identity is. So far as males wanting to transition to female, anyway.
That is not to say I am blaming women for this state of affairs. More, that I am blaming men for often being such bad role models that women feel they have no option but to remove their children from their influence.
There is no doubting this. Yet professionally you must know that just blaming or hectoring a client to 'be a better person' is rarely an effective clinical tool. The key is to elicit a fresh insight and internal motivation to change. And in this respect much of the usual public discourse yelling at men about how bad they are has probably been remarkably counter-productive.
As a bit of tangent here, in I would point to the large number of WW1 and WW2 Returned Servicemen, many damaged and traumatised by their experiences as a bit of a social tipping point here. These were the first big wars in our society where there was a large civilian contingent of soldiers (as contrasted to the generally professional cadres who traditionally fought wars in the pre-Industrial era) who returned from overseas to families and communities largely uncomprehending what they had gone through.
And often with little support but their mates at the RSA and booze. The consequences for their families was often tragic one way or another.
Then of course we had the 1970's sexual revolution and freely available contraception, that effectively de-coupled sex from reproduction, and diminished the necessity to maintain stable families. Which in turn has spawned generations of fatherlessness.
I recall a story my partner told me years ago, and it may well be apocryphal but it rings true enough. A prison chaplain had the idea to hand out to inmates Mother's Day cards, that were very well received. It was evidently a good idea and counted a success. However when he attempted to repeat the same idea with Fathers Day cards – it fell very flat indeed. There were almost no takers.
Or another story from my own experience. When I started in Cubs (this would be the early 60's and progressing through to Scouts I can clearly recall the heavy involvement of whole families. Summer camps especially saw the enthusiastic and valuable contribution from fathers – in all sorts of ways that in hindsight was quite remarkable. We used to do semi-annual suburb wide bottle drives that took whole weekends of hard work, but were an immense amount of fun because everyone pitched in.
But by the time I progressed into more senior levels in the 70's it suddenly changed. We became a baby sitting service for single mothers and the entire tone shifted. I admire those who persisted with it through this period, but in the end it was not sustainable.
And the Peter Ellis case had a major impact on male teachers entering the teaching profession I think. Basically, males wanting to enter teaching felt like they would be under suspicion of being pedophiles. I think since then, the number of male teachers plummeted.
And, some of the modern marketing which seems deliberately aimed at causing gender confusion in children. For instance, my wife's sister purchased a toy pram for her grand daughter. And, the picture on the front had a boy pushing the pram.
Sure, traditional gender roles are very archaic these days. So, not trying to argue for those. But, this sort of messaging to young children just encourages boys to question their gender I think.
It would be interesting to know how much of the desire for young boys especially to change their gender is due to actual genetic or biological factors and how much is due to modern socialisation. If there is a large amount due to modern socialisation, then we are doing our boys a huge dis-service.
It is my impression that this 'confusion' manifests itself to varying degrees much more than we think. I think if someone really tried to study this – and I have no idea exactly how – they would find this an almost universal experience in adolescents of both sexes. (In this I have a fair bit of time for Jung's ideas around anima and animus archetypes.)
But like everything else about adolescence this confusion is transitory. In my view encouraging children to engage in chemical or physical mutilation at this highly vulnerable, suggestible phase of their life is no more defensible than allowing older sexual predators to groom and exploit them sexually.
As for autogynophelia – that has an almost entirely mid-life onset in males. I hesitate to comment – beyond saying this is probably an entirely separate phenomenon that should not be conflated with the adolescent puberty process.
I had forgotten about the Peter Ellis case – I agree it was remarkably damaging to teaching in NZ; but parallel events were happening in many places in the world, meaning that teaching became a completely female dominated profession. Even the handful of men left had to modify their approach in order to survive.
And as far as I am concerned this has been a catastrophe for a significant cohort of young boys as they pass through our education system. The most obvious symptom is the now complete dominance of females at the tertiary level. I don't have any NZ stats to hand, but in the US there is now a 2:1 ratio of female to male graduates – way more when you filter out the STEM subjects. All the indicators suggest young men are piling out of universities and either heading toward technical trades or small business. Or playing video games in their mother's basement.
A big consequence of this being the rise of the so-called, and much despised, 'incel' movement – a whole cohort of young men who have realised they have almost zero chance of every finding a mate and forming a family. Again we can yell at them as much as we like about how terrible they are – this merely confirms for them the correctness of their world view.
Or even if we step back from this noisy group and just consider the wider statistic that – again in the US – we are seeing a dramatic rise in the number of young men who are not in any kind of sexual relationship even by the age of 30. Not even casually much less formally. And while there is a similar rise for young women it is much smaller.
And this is before I start mentioning the massive impact of dating apps that enforce a brutal Pareto principle on males – with the top handful of 'high value' males guaranteed of unlimited attention, a modest 15% or so who stand a chance – and the bottom 80% virtually ignored. In essence we are heading back toward a mating structure that looks a lot like serial polygamy than anything else.
On the female side this same dynamic manifests as a dramatic rise in involuntary childlessness. The stats are brutal, if a woman has not has had their first child by the age of 30, it is 50:50 she never will. By 40yrs the odds are much worse.
Much of the drop in average fertility rates across the world are not so much attributable to smaller family sizes as we like to think. It appears that once a woman has their first child, they will go on to have pretty much the same number of children on average as did their mothers and grandmother's generation. It is the huge rise of women who never have children who are the big factor here – and while we know this suits some women well enough – for the large majority it becomes a matter of great sadness in later life, not to mention the dire demographic implications for the fate of whole communities and nations.
This only touches of a few points off the top of my head right now – my overall point is that family structures everywhere are under enormous pressure from many different directions – and not a lot of people on the left are open to talking about this.
Fascinating discussion. I am finished for the night now, but something we should continue with on another day.
Observationally, this isn't true among the cohort of professional women I know. Having a single child is achievable without completely sacrificing your career – it's exponentially harder with each subsequent child.
Tied with the fact that professional women are more likely to have their first child when their career is established (so mid 30s or later) – when fertility levels are already dropping.
Every single one of these single-child women in my friendship/acquaintance group comes from a family of at least 2 siblings.
Also, observationally, my teen's class would have at least 40% of the kids from single-child families. Growing up, that was really rare – I can only remember possibly 2 or 3 kids in my class who were singletons (much envied by the rest of us, as they didn't have to share their stuff with siblings)
In NZ, we are 'lucky' that this is balanced by the number of blue and/or white collar workers, who choose to have a higher number of children – at a younger age. Our different cultural mix is a factor here, too (Pasifika and Maori women are more likely to have multiple children – cf Marama Davidson).
Other countries (Germany and Japan, for example) are considerably more severely affected by this demographic change. And, China is already in demographic free-fall following their one-child policy of the 20th century.
I appreciate this assertion around family size is counter intuitive. I gleaned this data from recent work by author and researcher Stephen J Shaw who was just as surprised as anyone else to uncover the real data once you drilled in beneath the aggregate numbers everyone else was looking at.
https://www.invertedworld.com/p/birthgap-childless-world-part-1
Otherwise yes your point around professional women having more than one child is taken.
I think that women (if they are prepared to go the solo-mum route), do have quite a few options.
Certainly the fertility clinics report increasing numbers of single women, choosing that route, because they are not in a stable relationship – and don't forsee one happening.
Also, it's relatively easy for women to source 'donations' from male friends (indeed several lesbian couples I know, have done this, (often from gay friends) rather than going down the official route).
I think that much of the involuntary childlessness is women leaving it 'too late'. Many are still not aware of how radically fertility can drop from late-20s onwards; and several I know had early onset menopause in their 30s.
We (as a society) still haven't come to terms with the fact that, biologically, the best time for women to have children is 18-28; but socially this is the most career-damaging time for women to take time out of the workforce.
And, having said all that. I also know several women who have chosen not to have children, and are perfectly happy with that choice. Some of them are devoted aunts and fairy godmothers (but happy to return them at the end of the day); others just aren't really interested in kids at all.
Yup to all of those points.
The data Shaw came up with however is that while there are of course some women who happily choose not to have children, it turns out they are a minority. What he found is that around 80% of childless women in later life wound up thus involuntarily – and to varying degrees found this the cause of grief and sadness.
To be clear, no-one is suggesting for one moment that women should in any manner be compelled to have children they do not want. I am speaking to the exact opposite here, women who do want a family but find out too late for one reason or another that it never happened.
I'd really like to see the data. I'm suspecting a bit of a biased sample with 80% regret figures.
For example: Surveying women who have unsucessfully been through fertility treatment is going to throw up higher 'regret' figures, than surveying highly successful, and childless-by-choice business-women.
Yes very much to this.
The obvious challenge is that it is almost impossible for a single mother in her early 20's to manage young children and grow a career at the same time. With the support of a partner and extended family the picture looks quite different. With the opportunity to work more from home, the picture changes again.
If we normalised life-long learning for all adults, if the political left more aggressively went after long standing workplace prejudices around age – for both young and old – this would help massively.
If we dismantled the lie we tell young people that career is the only thing that matters in life, and restored the innate dignity and respect parenthood is rightly due – this might shift the picture again.
All this just scratches the surface.
While the support of a partner *can* make having a family and a career possible, it doesn't always do so. And working from home is frequently not realistic with small children (as many families found out during lockdown).
Our cultural attitudes assume that managing the family is 'women's work' (and even worse, unpaid women's work). So that means that it is Mum's career which comes second, Mum who has to organize and manage all of the childcare and family organization, and Mum who takes time off work when the kids are sick, or other arrangements fall through. Extended family, means it's Grandma who does all of this (not Grandpa).
Case in point. Recent school strike. We have around 30 people where I work who are parents of kids (or Grandparents – extended family) in the affected age group (5-14). In not one instance was it Dad or Grandad who was taking time off work, or arranging for alternative family care – in every case, it was Mum or Grandma.
There is absolutely *nothing* stopping Dad stepping up to the plate to either take responsibility or organize alternative care [We are a highly family-friendly firm, and the CEO had already said that we would support families through this by offering working from home, or shifting hours or taking leave – whatever they needed]. It's just an unspoken cultural assumption that Mum will deal with it.
I know two highly-paid businesswomen with kids (we became friends when we were all going through the toddler years). In both cases, they went back to work after the first year – and Dad was a SAH Dad. Both women *still managed all of the family organization* – Nannies, Kindy, School admin, sports teams. All of the stuff that a family with kids needs to keep organized and under control. Mum still does it.
And on that topic – a shout-out to the amazing group "Big Buddy" – which does exactly that. Buddy up boys who have no male role models in their lives with blokes who are looking to be mentors.
An outstanding charity – which makes a positive difference to so many boys.
https://www.bigbuddy.org.nz/
Yeah, that is fantastic.
It seems intuitively obvious that young boys and young girls will benefit greatly from having a positive Male role model (hopefully their Dad) fully involved in their upbringing.
It would seem the stats back this up (especially for young boys)
I was lucky enough to have two loving parents (mum and dad) in the same household and am 100% certain it helped me immeasurably.
Mum taught me how to treat a woman and Dad taught me how to behave towards women (which yes is probably horribly old fashioned these days).
But growing up observing how Dad treated Mum and behaved to all women (as an absolute gentleman) and the fact that they were married 50 odd years makes me think sometimes that some of these 'old fashioned' ideas are worth keeping.
I suspect that many young men these days are never taught and have no idea or even concept of what being a gentleman (or just a man) is.
Sometimes when I see or hear about another female victim of horrific violence or even at the other end of the scale just rudeness I have to remind myself that the way I feel about such things isn't 'built in' ,which is what it feels like but mostly taught or learned.
I've forgotten my point now…hehehe
[Good morning, a week ago you agreed to stick to one username + e-mail address (see https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-27-03-2023/#comment-1941759). If you keep using two e-mail addresses, I will permanently ban one of them and your comments will disappear from the radar before the Mods can see & approve them; the Mods won’t be able to restore your comments, even if they’d want to. Your call – Incognito]
Mod note
Its certainly been an interesting discussion and raised many things, and hopefully some self reflection too.
Also been a welcome change from the usual diet of dreary National/Act bad, Labour/Green good, opinion posts. And hasnt it been revealing of assorted politicians and assorted contributors you thought you knew?
I’ve felt intellectually challenged to think about some things, in a way that I havent, for a long time on the TS.
One thing I've learnt is that my ideas can change and be modified by other commenters.Especially when a commenter lacks animus, is engaging in a genuine exercise to understand ,to articulate how they think and feel, rather than slamming or insulting others
Yes I agree Francesca
Which of us (commenters here) "lacks animus,"
Please explain. I'm genuinely interested (others may be also).
The discussion above has been fantastic……
Too late now for me to do than skim read but tomorrow I will read in more depth.
I certainly feel heartened by the good sense here.
Reading these comments from Belladonna, Redlogix and Tsmithfield again. And the reflections by Hetzer, MichaelP and Francesca.
I have learned so much from them and I see I have already used your comment TS about chauvinism and seeming RW male support of women's issues……hope I credited you but I fear I may not have. ?