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Open mike 04/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 4th, 2022 - 212 comments
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212 comments on “Open mike 04/01/2022 ”

  1. Blade 2

    Had the misfortune of taking public transport yesterday. I was a little into the trip when Hay fever reared its ugly head. A sneeze and cough had the man in front of me turn around; look at me, remove a Vicks Vapour Tube from his pocket and proceed to treat both his nostrils. Satisfied I now knew I was a cretin, he returned to reading his paper. That was followed by an elderly man pulling up along side our bus at a intersection. He was riding a high end racing bike and was kitted out in racing Lycra. He also had a teddy bear strapped to his front handlebars.

    I ask you folks, what the hell is happening in Aotearoa?

    Well, we know TV news ain't getting brighter or better. Last night a reporter asked why people were still swimming in a part of a river that had claimed four lives. It probably didn't cross this reporters mind that the river may have had nothing to do with recent drownings. The story also slyly wove in the disappointment of a Maori rahui being ignored. That part of the story showed a pakeha dude beached like a whale sunning himself on the river bank. That reiterated to viewers pakeha are ignorant and up to no good again.

    This country is becoming so wacky, it wouldn't surprise me if we mandated nuclear energy as clean and green and started arresting those nutters who protested against nuclear ships in our harbour.

    • Blazer 2.1

      'It probably didn't cross this reporters mind that the river may have had nothing to do with recent drownings. '

      Really ,here's me thinking they drowned in the river!

      Why do they bother having 'swim between the flags'…at beaches?

      Wacky..alright.

    • Puckish Rogue 2.2

      Since we have to ensure no one ever dies in NZ we will now ban all swimming, anywhere, by anyone

      It's the only way to be safe

      • Blazer 2.2.1

        So,swimming between the flags is no good either,and why have lifesavers?

      • Graeme 2.2.2

        Na. it's the New Zealand way to die, this is how you do it

        https://www.nzonscreen.com/title/how-to-drown-1951

        • Puckish Rogue 2.2.2.1

          No.

          Even one death from drowning is a tragedy therefore we must do everything in our power to stop drownings so the only way is to ban swimming entirely

          I'm not even happy with people having a bath but maybe I'm getting soft in my old age

          • KJT 2.2.2.1.1

            Dishonest debating technique no 7.

            "Reductio in absurdem"!

          • mauī 2.2.2.1.2

            Compulsory swimming lessons and wearing of floaties for everyone!

            • Puckish Rogue 2.2.2.1.2.1

              No.

              We must do everything we can to stop the dangerous disease of drowning spreading to other areas.

              • Tricledrown

                Ban summer bring back lockdown.

                Since lockdowns have stopped we have had more road accidents and drowning.

                People haven't been concentrating on the dangers around these activities.

            • Anne 2.2.2.1.2.2

              Compulsory swimming lessons at school excellent idea. I doubt any kid would complain. They are natural water babes.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Remember those old school swimming lessons and the amount of chlorine in the pool stung your eyes…

                https://www.today.com/health/what-makes-your-eyes-red-pool-its-not-chlorine-t28336

                'When we go swimming and our eyes turn red, it’s because swimmers have peed in the water.'

                “The nitrogen in the urine combines with the chlorine and it forms what’s known as chloramine and it’s actually chloramine that causes the red eyes," Michele Hlavsa, chief of the CDC’s healthy swimming program told TODAY in 2015. "It’s chlorine mixed with poop and sweat and a lot of other things we bring into the water with us.”

                • Anne

                  I knew of a teacher who sorted that problem by telling the kids if they peed in the water it would turn blue and everyone would know. 😉

                • lprent

                  I just used to go swimming in the Auckland tepid baths most weekends initially with mother when I was a bit young, and then bussing for club times.

                  Can't even remembering learning to swim, so I'd presume it was before I started remembering too much – ie before I started reading at about 3.

                  The school pools that were in the schools back in the 1960s were a health hazard.

                • In Vino

                  Far too lax, Pucky. You have failed to ban accidental falling into the water by those who cannot swm – who will soon be an absolute majority under your system..

              • Gezz

                We had compulsory swimming lessons at my primary school in the shallow end of our school pool. For some reason I could never get the hang of it. I'd let go of the flutter board & promptly panic & put my feet down.

                I finally learnt to swim aged about 8 or 9 when we came down from New Plymouth & visited rellies in Upper Hutt. It was Summer & we & our cuzzies about our own age went up the Remutaka Road to Kaitoke Forest Park for a picnic.

                While others swam in the Hutt River, I just waded about in me togs & then went boulder-climbing on the river bank. Not realising I couldn't swim, my cousin David pushed me off a boulder into a very deep pool of water. I sank to the bottom. The water was cystal clear, & before I'd even had time to panic I'd floated back up to the surface without any effort.

                So I just dog-paddled to the beach on the other side & bingo – I'd learned to swim. Best thing anyone could have done to teach me to swim.

                I'd been wondering how four people could have drowned in the Manawatu River in two days. From the video shown on 1ewes at 6 of the Rescue chopper & a number of people searching the river, it seemed a pretty placid river.

                But then I heard one of the searchers (might have been a police officer) say that in this area of the river it goes very suddenly from one metre deep to five metres. Maybe they were wading in it in clothes or got caught up in underwater obstructions in the deep part?

                With the last very heavy rainfall we had in Welly, some trees & logs have come down my stream & it'll take a pretty decent flood to shift them. Manawatu got that heavy rain too. Whatever the cause, it's bloody tragic.

                • Obtrectator

                  Water in swimming pools is deemed a danger that requires comprehensive regulations around its fencing-off. Water anywhere else should always be regarded as capable of being bloody treacherous.

            • pat 2.2.2.1.2.3

              Id be fairly confident those who drowned this past week or so could swim (at least to some degree)….if you cant swim you generally avoid unsupervised water sports.

              As a recipient of school swimming lessons, i was one of a good 30% ( in the cohort) who never mastered it until considerably latter, and those school swimming lessons were of little use….hence providing one on one lessons for our children.

              • Gezza

                Me too. As I posted above. In my case I learned to swim by accident, as I posted above, when I found out that we naturally float & that once you let yourself float it’s a relatively simple thing to keep your head above water.

                (Although I nearly drowned 20 years later when I came out of a kayak in the Pauatahanui Inlet at high water on a rapidly outgoing tide when I got completely exhausted swimming after the kayak & slipped under the surface getting a couple of lungfuls of seawater before I realised I needed to swim just a few metres to the nearby mudflats, and go after the kayak on land. That’s when I realised how easy it is to drown if you’re exhausted.)

                I’m curious, Pat. Just out of interest, can you remember at what age you finally learned to swim, & what it was that made the difference from your failed school swimming lessons?

                • pat

                  @Gezza….we had compulsory summer swimming lessons in school pool every year from standard one until I think standard 4, from memory they stopped at standard 5/6….what changed for me to be able to swim?…practice and avoiding freestyle as much as possible….breathing was always my problem.

                  I can recall a good few kids who hated swimming lessons and would do whatever they could to avoid them.

            • gsays 2.2.2.1.2.4

              @ maui; I realise your tongue is in your cheek when you say that, but being able to swim doesn't necessarily prevent drowning.

              I was fishing at the Mataikona river mouth last week. A chappie 50 meteres away was putting out his Fish Seeker. Half an hour or so later him and his wife are winching it in. It appears to be snagged and he is hauling on the line trying to retrieve the gear.

              He ended up going into the water waist deep and pulling on the line. 10 mins later and there are calls for help. I ended up going out to him, about 60 metres out, about 8 feet deep. He has the line wrapped around his arms, pinning them to his body and has run out of strength to keep his head above water.

              I managed to free him and get him on his back then started to get to shore. While I was only in the water for 3ish minutes, I was spent. A good wake up call as to my lack of fitness.
              One of those life events, that looking back, you can’t quite believe you did.

              • lprent

                I got caught in a rip out at Great Barrier once while swimming off one of the ocean beaches. Had a rather desperate half an hour getting out of one rip only to fall in another before I finally staggered out on the beach.

                I'm a excellent swimmer – but swimming at the Auckland west coast beaches like Muriwai or in the Kaipara north head really didn't prepare me to the Great Barrier close to the shore eddies caused by the offshore current.

                Swimming is useful. But anyone can get caught out.

    • Drowsy M. Kram 2.3

      Social Satire Jokes
      A liking for social satire jokes correlates with suspiciousness, the psychologists said. Examples of such jokes are: ''Military intelligence is a contradiction in terms'' and ''The trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.'' People who laugh at such jokes, the psychologists say, tend to have personalities that are ''jealous, dogmatic, tyrannical and irritable.'' But these same people may also score as ''imaginative'' people ''absorbed in ideas and theories.'' Such people are unconventional and it is reasonable they would enjoy social satire, Miss Bender said.

      We can sh*t for another 10 years.’ Toilet paper, pandemic politics and cultural citizenship [9 November 2021]
      The global reality of the COVID-19/Corona pandemic paradoxically boosted national politics, broadcasting and citizenship. Media coverage, especially initially, praised citizen solidarity and the creative solutions that were pioneered to care for each other. A year later, a lasting social learning curve throughout and after this crisis seems illusory. The pandemic, this paper argues, needs to be understood in a longer timeframe as the working through and coming to terms with neo-liberal governmentality. The (often hilarious) early responses on social media provide a strong entry to do so. Our focus will be on the Netherlands which had a so-called ‘intelligent’ lockdown during the first wave of COVID-19 in the spring of 2020. Using the authors’ own sharing back and forth of toilet paper memes as a starting point, we aim to explore the notion of collective self-reflection and citizen co-education underlying both heated and simply ridiculous posts. Using previous discussion of cultural citizenship, this paper inquires into how pandemic citizenship played out as a vast exercise in disciplining and distinction through jokes and anger. The material suggests a nostalgic turn that might point to an implicitly voiced critique of neoliberal governmentality.

    • Shanreagh 2.4

      Hopefully you were fully masked in public transport and not just wearing it as a chin strap!

      I have three small smurfs blu-tacked into the space in my car where a CD player would be. I also have a bobble headed dog who springs into action when one of the lids on a space on the gear console is opened. I am happy to join forces with the elderly man in a group of NZers who say ‘who cares’.

      Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)

      I like wackiness instead of beige.

      • Shanreagh 2.4.1

        Not sure what is going on…sorry for the repetition….I seem to have a bit of lag before amended comments are showing? Most likely operator error from a strange person.

        Quirky people beat the 'beigers' any day in my book

      • Blade 2.4.2

        Then you will like this:

        https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59850093

        Re Rahui:

        ”Support the rahui as a mark of respect to those who have drowned, especially in any cases where they are still waiting for bodies to turn up. (not sure if this is still the case)”

        Rahui is a Maori protocol, not European. It has no use if a body has been recovered. This will become another flash point down the road. I would not be surprised if the government or local councils have a go at making rahui observance official.

        • observer 2.4.2.1

          This will become another flash point down the road

          Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? As you declared on here, repeatedly. Then reality arrived, and the civil war didn't.

          You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.

          • woodart 2.4.2.1.1

            well remembered observer. I too remember some of blades bullshit. comes across as not a sharp blade .

          • Blade 2.4.2.1.2

            ''Will it be as bad as your previous predicted "flashpoint", the roads from Auckland to Northland over Christmas/New Year? ''

            Oh, dear… what flash points? Seems you are behind the news. Can you guess why there were no flash points?

            ''You know the internet keeps your receipts, so maybe it's time to ease up on the forecasts without facts. They are starting to look more like wishes than warnings.''

            Unlike the timid soul you are who spouts regally, but never puts their mana on the line… I do. I stand by what I predict.

    • alwyn 2.5

      "an elderly man . . . was riding a high end racing bike"

      Come on, give him a break. What is Trevor going to do with himself when the House is not in session and he can't organise a Speaker's tour of Europe this year?

      • Blade 2.5.1

        Come to think of it, just as well I didn't get cheeky otherwise he may have boarded the bus and given me what he gave to Tau Henare.

    • Peter 2.6

      What the hell is happening in Aotearoa all right, when it's got to the stage of someone being discombobulated by a guy on a bike doing his own thing.

      • Blade 2.6.1

        Yeah, but did the Teddy Bear have a choice? He was tied to the handle bars… that's torture. The Teddy was brown. That's racist. I'm afraid Peter, you are showing colonial tendencies.

  2. bwaghorn 3

    50 yeare ago car manuals told you how to adjust the valves,

    Now they tell you not to drink the battery acid. !!!

    Plagiarized from fb but fittingly sums up the trajectory some of our species is on .

    • Blazer 3.1

      I always have a shot of battery acid in the morning ,to get me started,and a shot of brake fluid in the evening before…bed.

      • Puckish Rogue 3.1.1

        Forget the Coronavirus, that shit'd kill the Aids virus

        • lprent 3.1.1.1

          Killing the host will often kill most viruses on them. However I'm not sure that it is a particularly useful therapeutic technique.

          However it has been done a few times in history – the history of the leprous in particular

      • weka 3.1.2

        pretty sure you should be doing that the other way around. Brake fluid in the morning, always.

      • Tricledrown 3.1.3

        You forgot the glycol to keep your cool

    • mac1 3.2

      Did a little search on battery acid consumption. I t seems medical magazines published research in 1968, over fifty tears ago.

      Cocktail recipes with high alcohol and red chili content are published known as 'battery acid cocktails".

      Not a new phenomenon it seems. Like storing dangerous chemicals in soft drink bottles…….

    • Macro 3.3

      The valves adjust themselves these days? You don't have to close the doors either they seem to close themselves!

      Just as well valves were replaced by transistors and then integrated circuits. Imagine the size of vehicle you would need, to drive all those computerized gizmos in the cars of today. 🙂

      • Adrian 3.3.1

        I wonder how many you are going to catch with your car valve alliteration?

        • Macro 3.3.1.1

          devil

          Just showing my age.

          I remember the size of the valves used in the directors on the Leander Class Frigates – hang over from WW2 technology – but very effective even so. They were massive glass bottles!

          But as for self adjusting poppet valves in ICEs, my first bike – a 1953 350cc Matchless with OHV had inlet and exhaust valves that did adjust themselves, whether you wanted them to or not! Especially when the primary chain broke on a run up to the Levin racing circuit one Saturday. Managed to repair the primary chain with the help of a friendly engineering workshop. But when trying to start the bike afterwards couldn't turn the engine over no matter how much weight I put on the kick start lever. The valves had adjusted themselves when the engine over revved when the primary chain broke so that they were firmly closed. Didn't discover this until I got the bike home. Dad came in the car and towed me home over the Akatarawas.blush

          A day I shall never forget.

          • bwaghorn 3.3.1.1.1

            "Dad towed me over the akatarawas"

            Hee that dont make parents like that any more.

            • RedLogix 3.3.1.1.1.1

              Heh – you made me think again – that goat track is one hell of a tow!

              • Macro

                that goat track is one hell of a tow!

                Better than down SH 1 and over the Haywards! 🙂

                few cars coming the other way to contend with also on a Sat in those days also.

                Mate and I bought a '39 Standard 10 for a tenner when we were 15. After school every day we would practice being Stirling Moss driving it up to the top of the Akatarawas and back down again. – That was until it ran its big end bearings. 🙁 His dad was a mechanic and suggested it would cost too much to repair and we should strip it for parts. Got 15 quid for the parts. 😉 So it paid for our petrol!

  3. greywarshark 4

    Jonathan Pie on Cop26 with lots of irreverent comment.

    • Why don't these gloomy bastards fuck off, no wonder they don't get votes, whining fucking no hopers. I'm allowed to be happy aren't I and so's everyone else so we put up with a bit of aggro and it works both ways right ? Case in point I got sick of fucking unused grass and shit in the backyard and needed somewhere to park the PWC so through a mate got a nice concreted area sweet and we took the kids up north and then down to nanna's at Okataina for more fun and why the fuck doesn't this fucking useless government do something about the fucking roads ?

      • Hetzer 4.1.1

        You made me smile Grafton….everyone needs a good rant like that from time to time. All power to you !

  4. Anker 5

    https://getoutspoken.com/campus-crazies/turns-out-women-are-easy-to-push-around-just-ask-a-transgender-athlete

    article on biological male winning all the swimming competitions in the states.

    expect to see more of this hear. And if hate speech laws turn out to be how many of us fear, we will not be able to call this out

    • arkie 5.1

      This particularly venomous article is from Outspoken, a project of Log Cabin Republicans.

      Perfect fit for left-wing site. /s

      [RL: Moderation is encouraging cites to support arguments and factual claims. Attacking the comment solely because you don’t approve of the source is both lazy and unhelpful.]

      • RedLogix 5.1.1

        Mod note

        • arkie 5.1.1.1

          I also commented on it's degree of venom, so not solely on it's source.

          I don't think it's out of line to point out the origin when an article from an obscure organisation is shared here, purportedly a New Zealand focussed left-wing blog.

          • RedLogix 5.1.1.1.1

            Clearly what you didn't want to comment on were any of the factual claims in the article. For example:

            “​​In November,” the Daily Wire notes, “Thomas smashed the record in the 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time, with both times breaking Penn program records.” And last weekend, “Thomas won the 1650 free by a whopping 38 seconds, the 500 free by 12 seconds, and the 200 free by seven seconds.”

            'Venomous' by contrast being a matter of opinion.

            • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1

              Expressing political opinion is a big part of what we do here. I don’t think there’s an obligation to read and critique a link. If someone puts up a brief comment and link, critiquing the comment, article and/or source is fair game.

              I do agree that casual slurring of sources is unhelpful but basically the comment was brief and simply pointing out the right wing nature of the source. I’ve suggested next time they explain more.

              This is a big issue in gender critical politics (sources), I’d rather see it hashed out rather than discouraging debate.

              one aspect of that is that the left wing media have either failed to cover the issues well, or have taken a particular liberal, pro gender identity ideology position. This means that the issues are left to the right to cover. It also means it’s been hard for gc journalists and writers to get published so they’ve relied on centrist and rw outlets.

              I want people here on all sides to critique sources, because that’s the only way we get to understand the issues.

              Mod hat off, I also think that gc people need to get better at which sources they use. There are limits.

              • RedLogix

                Do you have a list of approved left wing sources that are safe to use?

                • weka

                  Wtf are you on about? I just laid out a clear rationale for letting anyone critique any source from a political perspective. A rationale that supports the robust debate ethic of TS and imo creates a better commenting community.

                  I’ll use whatever damn source I please, but if I link to Breitbart I would expect someone to ask why and I would expect to have to explain. If that needs explaining on a left focused blog I can but it should be self evident. In other words, this isn’t a politically neutral space.

                  that doesn’t mean we can only use lw sources, maybe you need to take more time to understand the argument here.

                  if you think TS mods should be suppressing such debate, please explain your thinking.

              • Sabine

                so the left, who wants no debate, then also gets to define what resources people can use that would like a debate?

                this resource is as legit as the Guardian (who tied itselfs into bretzels and still stays in that form since the WI-SPA incident – or should we consider what they served up as objective journalism). They comment on an event, do so as fair and as resonable as anywhere else, and frankly i have read the article, i can not find fault with it.

                GC people are people who are on the right, the middle and the left, and they will bring sources that are on the right, the middle and the left.

                The only limit on what one reads, listens or views is the limit that is imnposed by others. And we used to call this censure.

                I suggest everyone actually read the link and then comment on that content of the article rather then the publication being of the "Log Cabin Republicans' aka the offical Gay – Lobby of the Republican Party.

                • Anker

                  Sabine 100% spot on

                • weka

                  Well said.

                  I'm saying that we can also critique sources. I did this the other day with a stupid anti-Trudeau, pro-covid tweet. It helps.

                  I agree that reading a piece can obviate the need for the source critique.

                  • Sabine

                    We should critique sources, but we should base that critique on the words uttered rather then the perceived political allegiance of any given source. To simply deny a book/article/item a read/view/listen because it is printed under the wrong cover of ideology is lazy, imo. I would like to point out Marilyn Waring, should be discount her words and findings because she was a Member of the National Party and an MP for them?

                    We can read a conservative, liberal, libertarian, and communist publication on the same topic, walking away with the same information but different ideological spin. As is with the above publication. And then we can discuss the difference in ideology, but we can only do that if we actually start reading, listening and viewing items that we would otherwise ignore due to 'source' bias. And that is a thing that is currently happening big time, i think they call it 'cancellation' now a days.

                    Maybe put a trigger warning for those that can not abide by different thoughts and ideas then those that they approve of, but that really should be it. Even a stopped clock is twice a day correct.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      100% agree

                    • Shanreagh

                      Great points Sabine. smiley

                    • weka

                      I agree up to a point. Problem is, some website are just propaganda trash and if there is no critique at that level then people share information and it just gets accepted. This is very common on FB.

                      I agree we can read widely and I think writing off a partisan source casually is is a problem, although I won't read Kiwiblog or Slater's new blog, they have such a history of dirty politics that I don't think they can be trusted.

                    • Sabine

                      @Weka – sorry no reply button.

                      I never read Slater of Kiwi blog for that matter, but then i don't consider either one of them 'news' either. I consider them to be in the 'privately held opinions and believe' category, where i would put the Daily Blog, The Standard and many other blogs.

                      The point is that generally what is discussed is what goes on daily but with different view points. What gets to me is that immediate dismissing of a source because it 'right wing' or 'far left' or 'too centric', all of them meaningless descriptions by now, and often hurled to shut people up rather then make a point.

                      I don't trust any of the writers of big publications or televised news and government sponsored PR figurines/ettes, generally speaking their rather nice and comfortable lifes depend on getting paid by words and getting these words printed. Why would i trust such a person? Why would i trust the NZ Herald more then say the Daily Fail? they are both tabloid material at best, useless waste of paper at worst, but both will bring a bit of news. And by reading both i get the news the other would not print due to their own biases.

                      So really, do read especially those that you don't trust. That way you are aware at the very least of their talking points. Sadly, we live in a world were marching lockstep is almost mandated now, so wanting or expecting a variety of view points might be soon controversial if it is not already so.

                  • Bill

                    A "pro-Covid" tweet?!?! You got a link to that?

                    Or are you referring to the Max Blumenthal tweet I put up that poked Trudeau for his hypocritical spouting on racism?

                    No idea.

                  • Shanreagh

                    That Trudeau link/story was puerile. I am glad you critiqued it. I often critique sources and it does help if the poster does recognise that posting from some sources does make readers gulp at first glance sometimes.

                    • Bill

                      lol – it was a tweet with Trudeau from his blackface days designed to make a simple point about his hypocrisy. And there was absolutely nothing "pro Covid" about it – a risible and pathetic contention.

                      Mind you, in the linked interview, he absolutely was suggesting that racists shouldn't be tolerated – at least, not unvaccinated ones – and that racists would essentially account for all the "not to be tolerated" unvaccinated people who weren't either anti-science and/or misogynists.

                      In other words, a poster child of liberalism was dog-whistling "open season" on unvaccinated people who wouldn't otherwise be convinced that pumping their body with an m-RNA injection was a good thing.

                      It was the classic "I'm not (insert), and while we can convince some (insert) to adhere to our preferences, there are those other (insert) and well, they're beyond the pale and ought not to be tolerated"

                      And anyone who can't see that, or refuses to acknowledge that, probably fancies themselves as some kind of "Covid Cop" and will be psychologically or otherwise 'tooling up' for the season to commence.

              • Anker

                Thanks Weka, point taken

            • arkie 5.1.1.1.1.2

              Here is a factual article covering the topic without the needless spin from the Log Cabin Republicans or Ben Shapiro’s Daily Wire. Note the difference in tone, and emphasis on the facts:

              Unsurprisingly, Thomas’ impressive performances have raised controversy from those who believe that Thomas’ sex at birth should disqualify her from competing in female sporting events, despite the NCAA’s rules on athletes who are transitioning.

              Thomas has fulfilled all NCAA requirements to compete in women’s events, so she is competing fully within the rules. However, it is unclear if she would be eligible to compete in USA Swimming competitions or beyond should she decide to continue her swimming career past this college season.

              https://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/controversy-of-the-year-transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-swims-fastest-times-in-the-nation/

              • RedLogix

                That would have been a fine response.

              • Anker

                The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.

                Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.

                you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO

                • Gezza

                  The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.

                  You are absolutely right, imo. It shows the sorry state of Political Correctness & fear of opprobium around gender-self-ID & trans-athletes adopted by the media. Rather than having the gonads to publish fair commentary from both sides, they seem to avoid any mention of the problems it IS and/or may cause CIS women.

                  It almost seems like suddenly being a CIS-gendered woman (or man) & having an opinion piece critical of trans-gender female athletes being allowed to compete with CIS-gendered females is subject to an editorial ban on NZ msm publication.

                  you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO

                  Damn straight! 👍🏼

              • Sabine

                Yes, they have passed some rules that allow them to compete against Non Males.

                I suggest that this person continues swimming in the Non Males team, and i suggest that any other coach anywhere who wants to win in the 'Female Sports' starts hiring other Non Females for that winning advantage and soon we will have full teams with Trans Women competing against Trans Women. And the little Non Males who whinge for not being able to compete and win against Non Females can just stay home.

              • Anker

                "here is a factual article" Arkie

                "unsurprizingly Thomas impressive performance has raised controversy"….

                I would pull you up right there. Its not an impressive performance at all. Thomas is male bodied and therefore has a significant advantage. See my Radio New Zealand link below in my comment to I prent.

                Ross Tucker sports scientist speaks. So it should read "Thomass "impressive" performance….

              • Puckish Rogue

                'Here is a factual article covering the topic without the needless spin from the Log Cabin Republicans or Ben Shapiro’s Daily Wire.'

                You know who broke the Loudoun County first? The Daily Wire did because the other media outlets wouldn't touch it because of the subject matter

              • Molly

                That is the issue, arkie.

                That unfair competition has been ruled permissable, because the sporting body has decided that "inclusion" takes priority over fairness.

                This decision has been made knowing that male bodied athletes retain a biological advantage, despite reducing testosterone.

                Biological sex categories existed in sport as an acknowledgment of the differences in performance. That advantage has not disappeared. What has disappeared is the priorities of fairness, and safety.

                Most of the posters here on this issue, have expressed their concerns over the impact of legislative and policy changes that prioritise gender identity over biological sex.

                This is another instance.

            • Adrian 5.1.1.1.1.3

              That Thomas ( who as a male category swimmer was not particularly succesful ) was according to another report loudly extolling his/her winning ability and rather unfortunatley reminded me of another who lauded his ability in "winning"a "fire fight " when not only doing so as the only one armed but did it with an Armalite.

          • weka 5.1.1.1.2

            I’m think it’s fine to do that, my suggestion is next time to include more words that explain what you think the issue is.

          • Anker 5.1.1.1.3

            The media is in New Zealand has let women down in its reporting of the issues around gender ideology and women’s rights. Groups like SUFW had their meetings canceled and had to go to the High Court, who found they were not a hate group and their meetings should go ahead. They also had their adverts cancelled even though the ASA had found their add not offensive.

            Apologies if you don’t like the source of the article, but I am more interested in getting some reporting on the facts, ie a male bodied swimmer in the US who was a mediocre swimmer in male competitions is breaking all sorts of records in the female competitions and women competitors are powerless to do anything about it.

            you claim it is a verminous article, but I think that is a matter of opinion. Women have every right to feel furious about this IMO

    • Pete 5.2

      Expect to see more of it here? I guess people will have all sport events large and small under watch, ready to report of 'strange things.'

      Few will care about a tennis tournament in Nelson, or care about tennis, or care about sports, but if there's a hint of a competitor in a women's event there 'looking masculine,' Nelson, tennis, sports and women in sport will become the most important things in the history of the world for some.

      • greywarshark 5.2.1

        It seems that people are going to be pivoting around the main point – this theft of natural identity at will as a social movement, not a personal imperative. Males saying they are females and females saying they are males.

        I wonder if females can utilise this new glitch in society's reasoning. Seeing they get paid on average 80% of male wages and get downgraded for bearing and rearing the nation's children, an unimportant sideline thing, can they leverage themselves into a better space being bi-sexual?

        • bwaghorn 5.2.1.1

          Some males (me for instance) earn less than there peers so as to do some raising of the kids, I know it's mostly woman but not only women.

        • RedLogix 5.2.1.2

          and females saying they are males.

          Yes – overlooked in this whole debate is that probably a lot of men are quietly unimpressed by this as well.

          • Sabine 5.2.1.2.1

            Well, RL, any day now, any day now they can be a bit noisy while being unimpressed, and above all they can also support those that are noise about it.

            As i said before, this will undo 'sex', not only as a protected category for women – which many may actually not have an issue with, but this will also then affect men. Men now give birth, Men now menstruate, Anyone can be a Man and you can not do a damn thing about it.

            Again, my issue is the 'Self' part of the ID thing. And as it stands now i can declare myself a bloke, run for the male leadership of my local Green party shop, not change a single thing, and these people would not be allowed to say a single thing lest they fear calls of Transphobia. Somewhere all of this has gone insane.

            And this swimmer belies in so many ways the – they have no advantage – bullshit that TRA throw at women and expect them to swallow it up wholesale lest they lose their jobs, have the police come knocking on the door, have death and rape threats send to them etc etc, btw, all of whom are not 'hate crimes'.

            If men are concerned about this, start making some noise.

            • RedLogix 5.2.1.2.1.1

              start making some noise.

              Many of us have been carefully trained not to. devil

              • Sabine

                Well then you must complain to your trainer, or simply break the rules and speak up. And remember that we expect Non Males to be kind and accommodating, so if we can find it with in us to speak about what is happening in our lifes and how it affects us and do i need to remind you the consequences of that speaking out for many – Maya Forstater, JKR – and any other Terf who is supposed to 'suck lady dick' for not believing that humans can change sex- maybe men can find that courage too.

                It is neither the fault nor the problem of Non Males if Males feel compelled to think that this does not affect them, until it eventually does – and most likely then it will be too late to change a thing – that is on them entirely.

                I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their 'training'.

                • Gezza

                  Somewhere all of this has gone insane.

                  Yeah, it has. It’s possibly somehow got all tied up with Cancel Culture & multiple bullshit pronouns insisted on by some really strange folk. There’s a whole range of odd people out there who are insisting on their right to be, do, or say whatever they like & to mob-attack critics who disagree with whatever they are trying to force others to accept or do.

                  I wish all the Non Female persons who are a bit unhappy about the happenings going on that they find some courage and conviction and above all that they find their voice, regardless of their ‘training’.

                  They do. Privately mostly. After 6 decades of men being told by strident feminists to shut up & never to have the temerity to presume they can speak for women, because they’re NOT women, it’s a bit difficult to find a starting place to speak from.

                  “Speaking as a man, I support those biological women & sportswomen who object to trans-women who’ve been through male puberty competing in women’s sports where they are likely to have a competitive advantage because of their biology & frame.

                  The only way to be fair about it, imo, is probably to establish a separate category of trans-women & trans-men sports competitions.”

                  • Sabine

                    Well, it is in the end up to everyone to decide if they are going to be quiet and silent (and put that on some vaguely defined feminists or such) when they see that the Emperor is naked or if they may rise in courage like the child and points out that indeed the Emperor is naked.

                    This is something that each will have to fight out with one self, how much of a lie will one participate in?

                    “The simple step of a courageous individual is not to take part in the lie. "One word of truth outweighs the world.”
                    ― Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn

                    also this one here 🙂

                    “You can resolve to live your life with integrity. Let your credo be this: Let the lie come into the world, let it even triumph. But not through me.”
                    ― Alexander Solzhenitsyn

                    • Gezza

                      Ross Tucker, sports scientist, in Anker’s link below, the audio of the interview with whom I’ve now listened to in full, makes it abundantly clear that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes because of biological/physiological sex-related differences.

                      That pretty much nails it I believe for most men regarding trans-women competing in women’s sport. Indon’t know any men who support it.

                      However male & female sports commentators don’t seem to want (or aren’t allowed by their orgs) to discuss this issue in any detail. So what most men believe isn’t likely to make any difference.

                      In that Tucker Interview some female rugby player (I forget who) says she doesn’t mind playing against trans-women from the body-mass/safety point of view. Tucker points out that about 10% of female athletes expressed similar views, but the other 90% were not keen.

                      So I’m at a loss to know why this is such a taboo subject for the msm. I can only put it down to fear of criticism & being reported on to eg the HRC for appearing to be anti-transgender.

                    • alwyn

                      @Gezza.

                      It isn't just " that the very top men athletes will always outperform the very top women athletes". A lot of the time it is that any half competent schoolboy can do it. I mean to say, when I was in my last year at school I could, as a sprinter, outperform the best women.

                      In my last year at school I won the school senior 100 yards. The main reason I could do it is because I was the only one still there out of the dozen or so I had competed against in earlier years. I could run, on a very, very good day a time of about 10.4 seconds. Well I have just had a look at the times run by men and women to win the New Zealand title during the 10 years from 1954 to 2003. The fastest time for the men was 9.5 secs. For women it was 10.9 secs.

                      In other words I would never have been allowed to enter the men's races and I would have completely dominated the women's ones. And I was only a competent schoolboy. I wasn't a good one.

                      You don't have to be a "very top male" You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don't have a chance.

                    • Gezza

                      @ alwayn

                      You don’t have to be a “very top male” You only have to have some idea of what the event is and be male to win. It is frankly totally unfair to allow trans females to compete in sports against natal females. The natal females really don’t have a chance.

                      Fair enuf. You’ve looked at the times for sprints & I haven’t. I think men would outperform women in any sport that relies on muscle power.

                      I’m very aware that Laurel Hutton badly crashed out of medals contention at the Tokyo Olympics. So I’m not prepared to say that any competent male (or former male) can outperform women in all sports categories because I don’t know if that’s been scientifically demonstrated yet.

                    • Gezza

                      that was @ alwyn (sorry for misspelling) 🙄

                    • Sabine

                      @ Gezza

                      They did not crash out the Olympics, they should have never participated in the first place. They took the place of a young Non Male who fought for and squarely won her place of admission. They got to show up to role play an Olympian simply because this trans identified male decided to prolong their career for a few more years and finally win some medals – as a 'women' and the regulatory body of the Olympics has obviously no idea what a female human being is and let them, and in NZ everyone expected everyone to go and gush about this person and be all 'brave and stunning'. As far as the Olympics go, this person is the epitome of unsportliness, unfairness.

                      The difference between them and all the female competitors ?
                      About 15 – 20 years in age, all of the female were in their twenties while this person was in their 40's. A trans identified male in his 40s was competing against non males in their 20s. A trans identified male who all their life trained as a male, competed as a male and in their late 30 – around 33+(maybe 36) started winning medals against women and thus got to participate in an event that they never would have participated in as a male as they would never have been good enough to qualify. Having almost 15 odd years ahead in training, experience, etc, is certainly no advantage to anyone when competing and certainly not for a trans identified male who competes against young woman for whom this is a ONCE in a life time event.

                      This person did not flunk out, this person won by simply showing up. That they then were what everyone could see, a human well past their prime time, slightly out of shape for an event as the Olympics, and with physical issues, and actually could only be a loser, has got nothing do with anything. To win they only needed to show their unsportlym, unhealthy and unfit self on that stage. Selfish is as selfish does.

                      They could have done the correct thing and simply opt out, but who would give them then their public affirmation and adoration for being 'stunning and brave' while essentially having cheated a proper contender out of her place, so that they could strut around like a naked emperor with no one daring to call out the nakedness of that emperor.

                    • Gezza

                      @ Sabine

                      All very good points. I agree completely with all you say there.

      • weka 5.2.2

        Who cares about looking masculine? The issue is of fairness and sexism in allowing male bodied people to compete in female only competitions. There’s a large body of evidence and knowledge now on how make and female bodies differ and how that impacts on fairness in sports.

      • lprent 5.2.3

        I used to play cricket, rugby, softball, some league, and a few other things – basically to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall.

        Then I went into the army and that gave even more of a point to why to exercise.

        Competitive sports just bore the hell out of me. They seem completely pointless. Doing a couch potato or being a spectator of competitive sports has always seemed to me to be the most useless form of vicarious drooling by simpletons that I could possibly imagine.

        Personally I'd be just as happy to ban competitive sports altogether and get rid of this idiotic issue that way.

        However, mu view on this that I have kind of noticed that there a considerable range of abilities and basic body conformation even within a single gender and some large overlaps between genders. After all if you have short male legs, then you're going to be outclassed by long female ones. I’ve seen people who have no obvious physical abilities run self-professed athletes into the ground by what looks like pure determination.

        It just becomes the luck of genetics either way. Seems a silly thing to compete over a the toss of luck from your ancestral progenitors and the vagaries yours and their upbringing.

        In my mixed training and eventual military unit (I was a medic) both the laggards and front-runners were invariably mixed genders. I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.

        Doing that kind of thing in your 20s cures a lot of delusions that many still seem to have about human variability.

        • Anker 5.2.3.1

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/programmes/the-detail/story/2018757712/the-science-of-transgender-women-in-sport

          "and some large overlaps between the genders." I prent.

          Here's a link (Radio NZ) to what sports scienctist Ross Tucker says about the difference of men and women in sports.

          A short snippert is about women runners, but there is also some stuff about trans women playing rugby with women and injuries. Tucker was employed by the Rugby World Federation to tease out the issues of transwomen playing rugby.

          The fastest women in the world can be beaten by the 10,000 fastest male runners, including boys as young a 14years. Men have bigger hearts, lungs more haemoglobin, flex muscles and many other advantages in sport.

          This is what is relevant in this debate.

          • lprent 5.2.3.1.1

            Not that sport is a rather stupid thing to be concerned about? Essentially a useless artificial concept that largely seems to be invented by shysters to make money from?

            Of that the 10,000 fastest males runners can also out perform the majority of the male population as well as the majority of the female population? Not to mention all horses who can out run all human runners except for marathon runners.

            Or that old age will eventually enable almost all 20yo women to out run the fastest male runners in their 80s.

            It is a completely artificial and essentially meaningless battle ground that you appear to be choosing. Makes it really really hard to see how it has any relevance apart from being a place to run a PR campaign on.

            Ultimately everyone winds up having to deal with the hand that luck and genetics handed out to them. I hardly think that sport is a battleground worth wasting time on. After all if you can’t be the fastest runner and you want to be competitive – then simply pick something where you have an advantage. Become a top tunnel crawler or extremely long distance walker. Or become a computer programmer or a graphic artist and go and do something that has less genetics in it.

            You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?

            • RedLogix 5.2.3.1.1.1

              You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes.

              I'm guessing – because as a male I'm underqualified to say much – is that GC's have a wide range of social concerns, but the sports element is both concrete and measureable – and it's obvious cheating. This is something most ordinary people, many of whom do enjoy sport, can understand.

              If you were running a campaign it would be negligent to set aside your most obvious plank. A bit like a Labour campaign that neglected to mention say – class.

            • Molly 5.2.3.1.1.2

              "You appear to be picking a battleground for PR purposes. That is what appears to me to be the main thing that is relevant in this part of the 'debate'. Probably because there aren’t any useful arguments outside of something ridiculous like sport?"

              Strangely enough, in NZ, the inherent unfairness of biological males competing in female categories, does have broader traction where the discussion of the protection of female-only spaces does not.

              As for the last sentence, only someone who has not bothered getting informed on the issue would have the gall to write that sentence. I suggest you may want to read some of the other posts on this issue, or get information from somewhere other than your personal experience.

          • Blazer 5.2.3.1.2

            Yes.The top woman tennis player in the world would be beaten by any top 500 player.

            ', 203rd-ranked German Karsten Braasch beat Serena Williams and Venus Williams back-to-back at the 1998 Australian Open.

            • Sabine 5.2.3.1.2.1

              Yes, and Serena Williams is quite open about that.

              Does it thus make it fair for male bodied individuals to compete against non male bodied people. And should you call it 'female sport' then, rather tehn 'mixed gender'.

              That would be my preference, and i don't care about sport one bit tbh.

              Female – only natal females

              mixed gender – transwomen, transmen, non binaries of all genders, natal men / women and anyone else i might not know exits or will exist in the future.

              Male – only natal males

              That be in the too hard basket? Or is it just that the two baskets of funds – 1 for male sport and 1 for female sport would be better spend on 1 for male sport and 1 for transwomens sport, and non males and non transwomen just go stay home and forget about having sports teams and games, after all any boy can beat them at it?

              • psych nurse

                In horse racing we have colts, geldings and fillies all completing equally. Maybe gelding would be a start.

        • weka 5.2.3.2

          However, mu view on this that I have kind of noticed that there a considerable range of abilities and basic body conformation even within a single gender and some large overlaps between genders. After all if you have short male legs, then you're going to be outclassed by long female ones. I’ve seen people who have no obvious physical abilities run self-professed athletes into the ground by what looks like pure determination.

          funnily enough, when you look at the range of physical abilities they still track distinctly differently for males and females. This is the basis of why we have women's sport in the first place.

          It's also the basis of why we have female only spaces. If, on average, the range of physical abilities of women matched that of men, then we (women) would have put a stop a long time ago to rape and other kinds of violence by men against women.

          There's a large body of evidence on this from medical and sports science, and a *lot of analysis in recent years, that points to distinct differences based in biology.

          I'll look for a better link later (especially the one about running, leg length and the other factors that affect one's ability to run fast) but in the meantime, this from 2010,

          It appears that gender gaps in sport performance have been stable for a long time: women may never catch up with men. This stabilization of 26 years is the expression of a significant drop in the variation of these gaps' magnitude. After a significant narrowing of gender gaps, women and men now evolve in parallel, in the same direction. The late implication of women in competition, their increasing participation, as well as the individual doping behaviours and state programs for performance enhancement may all have had a historical role but no longer reduce the gap. Without any technological improvement specifically dedicated to one gender or the other, performances will probably evolve in a similar manner for both men and women. The gap may be set.

          https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC3761733/

          • lprent 5.2.3.2.1

            funnily enough, when you look at the range of physical abilities they still track distinctly differently for males and females. This is the basis of why we have women's sport in the first place.

            Sure. For all of that. However it is an overlapping set of distributions. Even more so when you start removing the age restrictions and the way that the people arguing it seem to selectively pick the comparing where there is the most difference (ie the anatomical cervical difference).

            However that wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is stupid social space to run this argument in.

            After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.

            If you want to argue for female only spaces, then why bothering using the daftness of sport to mount the 'debate' on. Great place if you want to highlight the vast range of human variability and gratuitous elitism. Or the vagaries of national or regional dietary patterns in childhood.

            You could just as easily equally argue that there should be sports restricted to skinny people with short legs to ensure competitiveness for short legged people. Or restricted to people who mainly eat rice. Or that there should be different competitions for those whose genetic background is from near to the equator rather than higher latitudes.

            All of those have different distributions in all of the same facets that you and Anker have been pointing out. That is why I find this particular line of argument so irritating – it isn't about anything important except to the individuals who are involved in sport. Which is a tiny elitist minority in the world population, even if you count in their slobbering couch potato fans. As I keep pointing out is is a matter of pure genetic luck and which society in which era that a individual and their grandmother grew up in (the egg formation argument). Essentially a matter of luck.

            I have no problem with the concept of female only spaces. But so far I'm seeing bugger all arguments about why they're more of a priority than something useful like shifting the legal and social structures to remove glass ceilings or the obvious gender discrimination in career paths or the antique attitude that marriage is a licence to rape within the institution.

            So far from what I have seen is a series of complaints with no particular explanations about why females only spaces something that really necessary for the future of any of our societies.

            Basically it sounds like someone just trying to re-create the female equivalent of 19th century upper-class gentleman's club. Which were primarily founded as way to avoid child care and insider trading as far as I can see.

            • Anker 5.2.3.2.1.1
              • Where to start IPrent… did you read Ross Tuckers article? Do you understand that women could face significant injuries if trans women compete with them? Sport, particularly competitive sport may not be important to you, but competing at elite level is important to some and most of us follow some sport/Olympics. It’s about fairness and safety for women and girls.
              • I haven’t just post about sport I have posted about many other aspects of the imposition of gender ideology on women and girls.
            • Puckish Rogue 5.2.3.2.1.2

              'After almost no-one can out-compete top athletes of any gender and most of us don't bother trying to compete. I can pretty well guarantee that even when I was at my most fit, that I could have never competed with top female athletes.'

              While not wanting to bring down the big, black, bold typeface of doom.

              You're wrong about this.
              You may think you're not wrong but you are wrong.

              However whether you're right or wrong isn't the issue (you're wrong of course) but are you ok with boys deciding they're girls and taking college scholarships away from girls?

              Basically as soon as puberty hits girls cannot compete physically, in most sports, with boys

              https://www.usatf.org/resources/statistics/records/championship-meet-records/usatf-national-junior-olympic-track-field-champion

              You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.

              • Sabine

                You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.

                Very few seem to be bothered by it to be fair – which is why the non males sometimes come across as if their hair was at fire :).

                Even that that point is a feature in this whole mess rather then a sad side effect.

                It is costing women and girls awards, places of employment, places in sports competitions and the resources that come when one is a winning competitior, it is costing them the privacy and dignity of a place away from men while relieving themselves, while getting undressed, while needing a rape kit administered and wanting this to be done by a natal women rather then by a man who helds a sincere believe that he too is a women, while needing shelter and not wanting to share with male bodies, being called a pregnant mum to be rather tehn considered a walking inseminated incubator that is barely sentient and so on and so forth.

                I pointed that out above, if there are two funds in sport (or anything else for that matter), Fund A is to fund sporting/education etc for boys and Fund B is to fund the same for Girls what changes when you replace Girls with Trans identified males? You appropriate both funds for the advancement of boys. It is the intended outcome.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  Got to admit I was surprised by lprents contribution today, I didn't think he was like that

              • lprent

                You talk about shifting social structures but you don't seem bothered by girls being disadvantaged financially and with future educational prospects.

                You really are being stupid today. That wasn't what I was arguing. What I was arguing was that sport is a bloody silly place to try and argue a law change from.

                It is by definition an elitist area where 99% of the people who might want a opportunity of the type that you are touting simply by virtue of mere genetics, upbringing and opportunity cannot compete with others.

                Doesn't matter if they XX or XY – the vast majority of people of any gender or sexual orientation cannot compete for financial rewards and future educational prospect (FFS – are you a Americian?) because they don't get the opportunity.

                Don't you realise just how silly you sound? When you're talking something that would require legislative approval and apply across the whole population. That sounds like a real vote catcher – support the female elite in sports because they're better then everyone else apart from a few males.

                /sarc

                • Puckish Rogue

                  You're on the wrong side of this.

                  I hope that one day you can see that and change your views accordingly.

                  • lprent

                    It'd be nice if someone could explain why.

                    So far I haven't seen anything that is capable of being brought into our current legislative framework. Or a reason for doing it that doesn’t stink of an underlying implied “I don’t like them – they smell” rationalisation. If it isn’t that, then there must be a explainable reason.

                    I have just been getting idiotic brushoffs like yours and lectures about sport.

                    Reads an awful lot like bigots and discrimination to me.

        • RedLogix 5.2.3.3

          I remember one escape and evasion exercise over the mountains behind Tolaga Bay where I damn near had to dragged up some sections by some very fit women who'd just finished yomping all over the Southern Alps. Then I was pretty damn fit – but not in their league.

          Having spent a chunk of my youth in the Southern Alps with women just like these – I can advise that the difference is that they tended to have more endurance over long days, while I had more speed and strength in the very rough terrain.

          • lprent 5.2.3.3.1

            Yep. I can open tight lids far better than my female partner. But then again so can any lever.

            Reminds me – I should go and buy her the general purpose jar and bottle top opener. I have better things to use my fingers for. And for the single-minded amongst readers – they mostly involve using keyboards into my old age.

            • RedLogix 5.2.3.3.1.1

              Last I looked bottle opening was not an Olympic sport, or any sport for that matter. (Happy to be proven wrong, nothing is too weird for the world we live in.)

              Nor is sport confined to just the elites as you imply, people of all ages and ability get a great deal out of it. They enjoy competing because almost all sports are carefully organised by sex, age, weight, classes and skill divisions to ensure everyone has some chance of succeeding.

              There's almost as much fun to be had winning a social game of touch as there is watching the AB's bring home a World Cup. But no-one would be interested in watching an AB team crush a bunch of social players.

              And this doesn't apply to just sports – there is for example a reason why we don't ask five year old's to sit Stage 3 Math exams.

              • lprent

                Good points.

                Sure and I used to like sports almost as much as books when I was younger. They were pretty non-competitive amongst the kids – the most competitive were generally the parents getting their vicarious thrills.

                However I have also seen way too much discrimination in sports because of the habit of micro-slotting. It is why women's rugby took so long to take off. It simply wasn't an option in the league. Changed now. But most of the changes you're describing kick in post-pubescent. We used to have some truly evil female backs in pickup games back when I was a kid.

                Women's cricket or woman being on cricket teams seems to be sparse as well, and that is a sport that is almost entirely technique and practice.

                However every example I have seen offered about sport (apart from your one) offered so far referred to elite sports. And what I was arguing was that sports elite or otherwise are bloody stupid place to argue a legal principle on.

                Which is a extremely small microcosm in society and using that as a basis for

                To take en extreme example, it would be the exact equivalent of arguing that women should have several free turns in inter spousal violence because most (but not all) women are smaller than their male spouses. Regardless that the female perp is an expert in martial arts and their spouse crawls in a ball with anxiety at any form of conflict.

                Such is the diversity of humans when you stop looking shallowly at means and ignoring distributions.

                You really can't make legislation based on something like that outside of small children. We don't have many weird loophole exceptions like that left in our current legislation.

        • Descendant Of Smith 5.2.3.4

          "to provide a point to exercising that wasn't the equivalent of doing yoga looking at a blank wall."

          That is exactly why competitive sports are useful.

          It is interesting too that my who wife was a competitive swimmer/diver can't get her head around team sports. Even going for a walk she slips into a mode of no-one else exists and she walks at her own pace.

          I on the other hand as a soccer/cricket/rugby player can't get used to doing something without others e.g. running by yourself.

          Whether this is a natural genetic variation which is why we were drawn to our specific sports in the first place or conditioning from years of participation or a combination of both would be interesting.

      • Anker 5.2.4

        Pete is the tennis tournament hypothetical or is this really happening?

        • Pete 5.2.4.1

          A town chosen at random. If that city wanted all the eyes of the world on it, having a tournament with a competitor in a women's event 'looking masculine' would achieve that.

          And of course many who've never had anything to do with sport, participating, organising or administering, would be into it. All of a sudden sports would be be= the centre of their universe along with Nelson a place they've never had a thought about previously.

    • Bill 5.3

      If gender is a social construct (a view I'm happy to agree with), then how can anyone possibly be transgender?

      To be transgender would entail moving from one gender (by transgender logic, from a somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality) to another somewhat 'fixed' or definable reality. On the other hand, if gender is held to be nowt but a social construct, then gender is whatever any person might decide gender will be for them.

      Sex is another kettle of fish. As far as my very limited biological knowledge goes, sex is defined by the presence of xx and xy chromosomes. (No doubt there are additional criteria)

      But anyway, does anyone really believe an archaeologist of the future will dig up someone's bones and puzzle over whether the bones are those of a female or a male?

      • RedLogix 5.3.1

        First they'll want to know the correct pronouns perchance they deadname them. devil

        • Gezza 5.3.1.1

          I got a surprise doing some online Te Reo Maori lessons last year to learn that ia in Māori is the personal pronoun for either she or he – and probably applies just as well for any other invented gender someone odd might want to come up with.

          https://kupu.maori.nz/more/pronouns

          We are so used to using he/him/his & she/her/hers (with a gender neutral it/its) in English & other European languages it seemed odd to use the same pronoun for both sexes, & English-speakers would naturally expect it to be confusing sometimes, but it clearly isn’t, and hasn’t been, any problem for Māori speakers for centuries.

  5. greywarshark 6

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/459009/new-conservation-plan-for-canterbury-s-braided-rivers

    Good news, something that was being talked about mid 2021 seems to have come to fruition.

    …The braided river revival plan was announced by Environment Canterbury in November, with the Rangitata and Rakahuri/Ashley rivers the first to be incorporated into the new plan.

    It was supported by Tumu Taiao, which provides advice to the council on interests of mana whenua.

    Council principal adviser on braided rivers David Owen said a whole river approach was needed, and each river would have its own individual pathway.

    "We've created the Braided River Revival/Whakahaumanu Ngā Awa ā Pākihi programme of work to align … the many river management responsibilities the council has … These include flood management, weed and pest control, biodiversity enhancement and recreational values through regional parks."

    Owen said the rivers were rare internationally and New Zealand had some of the best examples of braided rivers in the world...

  6. mary_a 7

    It was mentioned here in an earlier post about an older guy, dressed in racing lycra riding a bike. I say good on him.

    Being in my mid 70s now, I have found my confidence has grown as I have aged. Not sure if it's a common thing with the aging process, or some of us think what the hell, I'm doing this that or the other, regardless.

    Having been very hesitant around water, when I reached my 6th decade I decided to learn to swim, through one on one lessons. Since then, I have been swimming at my local pool three days a week, not worrying what I look like in a swimsuit, despite everything heading south and some cellulite here and there. I can swim and that's all that matters to me. Whereas previously I wouldn't have been so brave as to be seen publicly in swimwear.

    In the same decade I flew a Cessna aircraft, accompanied of course by a registered flying instructor, an amazing experience. My 60s began my time of challenge.

    Now in my 7th decade, I feel more confidant than ever. I've always loved colours, but in the past I always wore colours that didn't make me stand out. However now I wear what I feel like wearing and to hell what anyone else thinks. I feel more comfortable and confident in my own (wrinkly) skin now than ever before. Most of all, I am enjoying being me. And I guess that's what the older Lycra clad guy on the bike was doing, being who he is and making the most of it.

    • lprent 7.1

      My dad has hit 82.

      He was showing me at xmas on his e-bike at how he'd had to change the height of his right side pedal by boring a new hole in the pedal crank. That was because his right knee wasn't flexing in a wide enough range to deal with pedal at the normal position.

      He is due to head into hospital in a week or so get that knee sorted out. Then he will return the pedal to its usual position.

      My comment was that he should fix the butchered crank because one with ruddy great hole drilled into it was freaking dangerous. He will probably ignore me as usual..

      I think that e-bikes are just awesome for extending out the elderly rediscovery of the joy in life. They certainly are making my 60s more fun.

      • mary_a 7.1.1

        Thanks Lynn for sharing your dad's exercise story with his e-bike. I wish him well with his knee.

        e-bikes are a great way to exercise outdoors, particularly for the elderly. I do envy people who cycle. I can't ride a bike anymore, due to a brain injury a few years back, which affected my balance and coordination. Instead I use an ancient rattly stationery bike, which works well, when I can't go walking outside on my non swimming days. Where there's a will, there's always a way for us "golden oldies to enjoy our lives."wink

    • Patricia Bremner 7.2

      Oh Mary_a, how relatable that story is. Confidence and acceptance of self and others = true freedom. Long may you enjoy life.

      Your colour comment rang bells. I had many gifts from family and friends, furniture inherited as well, in greens and creams. I lived with them on and off for ten years. The travel and motorhome meant three years? of time spent in that scheme.

      Then we redecorated with plum teal and gold. Just great. We love it. Should have done that earlier.

  7. dv 8

    We are not talking abt the cricketfrown

  8. Bill 9

    Given that Covid responses in country A tend, if successfully implemented, to flow on to countries B, C and D these days…

    OTTAWA — The federal minister in charge of aid to the unemployed says jobless Canadians who refuse to get vaccinated may find themselves blocked from benefits so long as public health concerns remain top of mind.

    The Liberals have tacked conditions onto a suite of benefit payments, saying none can go to workers who lose work or hours because they have refused to get vaccinated.

  9. Koff 10

    "It's shambolic, I tell you!" No, not the Natz in NZ this time, but Dr. Kerryn Phelps, Australia's first female AMA President, letting rip about the Australian Federal government's handling of the current Omicron outbreak (i.e. "let it rip"). Phelps is not concerned so much about Omicron's severity, or lack of it, but the fact that the government hasn't planned for the possibility that a very transmissible, vaccine evading variant could disrupt ordinary life so much as this one. Watch out, NZ as there are certainly lessons to be learned here to help mitigate the effects of the spread of Omicron when it inevitably leaks out of MIQ.

    • Poission 10.1

      Let it rip strategy is a policy initiative for Herd Immunity (aka a pox party) which is an obvious experimental failure.

      • weka 10.1.1

        the reports coming out of Oz from health care workers today are grim af.

        • joe90 10.1.1.1

          Yet the muppets among us are insisting Omicrom is a minor respiratory disease. That's just the mode of transmission.

          What is Omicrom's effect on the vascular system, do other organs sustain the damage inflicted by prior versions, and what are the prospects of disability of unknown duration after even mild initial illness?

          • Bill 10.1.1.1.1

            You think maybe legs will fall off a week or three after infection?

            How's about weighing up the known effects of Delta against the known effects of Omicron instead of rushing to hunker in the 'bunker of fear'?

            (Also, where was all this “concern” over m-RNA’s possible medium and long term effects?)

            • McFlock 10.1.1.1.1.1

              The vaccines went through months of monitored trials with tens of thousands of people with known exposures and nothing chronic for a year so far.

              Omicron, we've basically had enough time to see 2 or three reproductive generations. Chronic conditions would still be indistinguishable from acute at this stage.

              But if the least-worst-case of 2% of cases needing hospitalisation is even accurate, what does hitting 10k a day equal? In a week will they be getting 200 admissions a day? Victoria's not much bigger than NZ.

              • Bill

                There is not a single country in the world further into the Omicron wave than Australia is, that is experiencing (or has experienced) a worrisome surge in hospital admissions driven by Omicron infection.

              • Bill

                On vaccines – excess deaths for all causes bar Covid, spike in those injected in line with vaccination roll outs. Now, I guess that might have nothing to do with the injections, but someone somewhere would have to come up with a feasible explanation that applied across all the age groups that show up those excess deaths among the vaccinated.

                • McFlock

                  excess deaths for all causes bar Covid, spike in those injected in line with vaccination roll outs.

                  Bullshit.

                  Easiest way to look at that is in a very low covid country with a very high vax rate. And it's not happened in NZ.

                  • Bill

                    Here you go (though I know you're loathe to spend any time understanding shit)

                    And the obvious way to look at it is to, well… look at it. What are the 'all cause' excess deaths (excluding Covid)…

                    https://rumble.com/vrtbjf-the-latest-data-on-vaccine-efficacy-and-safety-from-the-uk.html

                    • McFlock

                      UK isn't NZ.

                      You made a claim about vaccines and excess mortality. Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor, particularly in a country that used excel to tally test results.

                      NZ has no such confounding factor. Show us the excess deaths.

                      edit: meh. CBF with your link – got a few minutes in and it smells to high heaven.

                    • Bill

                      Untested or unidentified covid cases would be an obvious confounding factor

                      All deaths within 28 days of a +ve test are marked down as Covid deaths. All hospital patients are tested for Covid. All corpses are currently tested for Covid. This "confounding factor" arises how or from where…?

                      And true to form, McFlock has no interest in actually looking at the scientific evidence, not even when it’s presented on a plate.

                      Pathetic.

                    • McFlock

                      Dude, it's pretty simple. If vaccinations caused excess mortality, NZ would be the poster example to prove it.

                      All deaths within 28 days of a +ve test are marked down as Covid deaths. All hospital patients are tested for Covid. All corpses are currently tested for Covid. This "confounding factor" arises how or from where…?

                      Assuming all that is true, you have false negatives, deaths post-28 days, changing policies around testing and classification, and the aforementioned bureaucratic fuckups. Lots of nice things to fudge if someone has an agenda.

                      But NZ, none of that. Vaccine goes in, deaths go up… or not. Frankly, I'd love to see you try to mash this chart into this chart. I'm sure you're capable of those mental gymnastics.

                      As for your link, it was going to be a quarter hour of me being fucked off with their bullshit. They'd already set up a bunch of assumptions within a couple of minutes. I often have a quick look at your articles (which usually don't seem to say what you think they say), but your propaganda videos can go spin.

              • weka

                The vaccines went through months of monitored trials with tens of thousands of people with known exposures and nothing chronic for a year so far.

                to be fair, people with chronic health conditions were excluded from trials, so we will need other ways of establishing long term reactions eg doing studies on specific cohorts that follow post-vax.

                I'm also not yet convinced on the adverse reaction monitoring process. How do they separate out direct adverse reactions from flares and relapses from coincidental conditions and so on?

                • McFlock

                  I'm also not yet convinced on the adverse reaction monitoring process. How do they separate out direct adverse reactions from flares and relapses from coincidental conditions and so on?

                  A large chunk of it is math that blows my mind, with some case investigations and figuring out biological causes if possible.

                  But mostly math, I think. We're not usually talking something as obvious as smoking and lung cancer (which has something like a 90% attributable risk rate).

          • weka 10.1.1.1.2

            fearmongering, it's just a cold dude.

            • Bill 10.1.1.1.2.1

              It presents almost precisely as a cold – call it "Omicron cold" if you want. It does not infect lung tissue and therefor does not and cannot progress to pneumonia type symptoms as Delta could.

              • McFlock

                It does not infect lung tissue

                It clearly does.

                edit: nor would I like to be treated by a doctor who has a cold, but that might just be me.

                • Bill

                  quote – In a potential clue regarding lower severity, they found that Omicron replication was less efficient in deeper lung tissue—more than 10 times lower than the original virus

                  • weka

                    that's not the same thing as "It does not infect lung tissue"

                  • McFlock

                    Indeed. Infecting lung tissue. And 70 times higher in the bronchi. Those are also in the lower respiratory system.

                    Last I checked, the common cold was an acute upper respitary tract infection.

                    • Bill

                      And 70 times higher in the bronchi. Those are also in the lower respiratory system.

                      Bronchus is the upper airway – ie, not lung tissue. And pneumonia is not something that occurs because of bronchial infection.

                    • McFlock

                      Bronchus is the upper airway – ie, not lung tissue.

                      sigh. If you're going to make up your own medical terminology, try using different words.

                      wikipedia:

                      A bronchus is a passage or airway in the lower respiratory tract that conducts air into the lungs.

                      Encyclopaedia.com:

                      The respiratory tract cleans, warms, and moistens air on its way to the lungs. The tract can be divided into an upper and a lower part. The upper part consists of the nose, nasal cavity, pharynx (throat), larynx, and upper part of the trachea (windpipe). The lower part consists of the lower part of the trachea, bronchi, and lungs (which contain bronchioles and alveoli).

                      Just in case you want to try operating on yourself one day, you might want to get the anatomy right.

                      And pneumonia is not something that occurs because of bronchial infection.

                      I will accept your medical judgement on that, for now. The omicron replication found in deep lung tissue I linked to earlier, that could cause pneumonia, though.

                    • McFlock

                      By the way, one of your articles you linked to in order to apparently argue that "lower" means "doesn't" mentions something called "bronchopneumonia".

                      The one about how hamsters are largely safe from covid.

                      That wouldn't be a subtype of pneumonia involving bronchial infection, would it?

        • Bill 10.1.1.2

          Grim because the hospitals are over-run with admissions because of Omicron? Or grim because any +ve cases have to isolate for a prescribed number of days and hospitals are short staffed as a result?

          • weka 10.1.1.2.1

            Covid. Australia has both delta and omicron currently.

            One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate. So they don't spread covid to a) other staff and b) patients.

            If they don't protect staff, they're more likely to get covid, and more likely to need time off work. Vicious cycle. Longer term, there are issues of long covid.

            Suggesting that they should let covid rip in hospitals is next level. I guess the 'protect the vulnerable' thing doesn't apply any more.

            Honestly, I think you don't actually know what public health is.

            • Bill 10.1.1.2.1.1

              One of the ways to prevent hospital overwhelm is to get covid positive staff to self isolate

              Obviously not.

              Isolation rules were set for Delta, and Omicron, besides being very mild by comparison, has a far shorter period of infection than Delta. I don't know what the isolation time in Australia is, but the UK (previously hammered by their "pingdemic) and the US are chopping theirs in half – which some might argue is cynical I guess.

              And again. You really do need to fuck the fuck right off with these lies you keep repeating around what I think, suggest or believe.

              • weka

                Australia still has delta.

                again, I have no idea what you mean by lies, because you haven't said.

                • Bill

                  You have maintained that I do not believe long covid is a thing.

                  You repeatedly insinuate that I advocate "letting Covid rip"

                  Clear now?

                  • weka

                    Yes. Let me address each then.

                    Long covid. Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild, and that we should let it take over from delta. We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet. Denial here doesn't mean you don't believe it is a thing, it's the ongoing analysis that ignores it/doesn't take it into account.

                    Letting it rip. If you don't mean we should do that, then just say what you do mean. Pretty sure we've been round this before and you didn't clarify that time either. You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta. I assume you mean by allowing community transmission (because this seems to fit with your general position on covid). If it's not, then just say what your actual position is. How would omicron be allowed to take over from delta without community transmission?

                    • Bill

                      Your comments are often arguments that omicron is mild

                      It is.

                      that we should let it take over from delta

                      Of course we should!

                      We don't know the rate of long covid from omicron yet

                      And we don't know the effects of long covid from Delta.

                      You appear to argue that in NZ we should let covid take over from delta

                      Yes.

                      I assume you mean by allowing community transmission

                      From the apparent infectiousness of Omicron, I wouldn't think there's much in the way of "allowing" community spread. There will be community spread and "the Public Health experts" ought to put in place whatever protections for the vulnerable that they deem fit. ( So expect zero messaging beyond "vaccinate")

                    • weka

                      that doesn't answer the question though. We do in fact keep omicron out currently by a raft of measures. You haven't said which if any we should retain. The implication I've taken from your comments is that we shouldn't try and constrain it, instead allow it into the community and protect vulnerable people. I'm asking you to explain what that would look like in detail eg borders opened? No MiQ? No vax pass or neg test on planes? No traffic light system? No scanning/signing in? What?

                      Or we keep all that in place?

                    • Bill

                      Why would people with Omicron be kept in MIQ if it's endemic?

                      Vaccine passports are only there as a foot through the door for wider surveillance. They should never have been introduced in the first instance – they were a political decision, not a public health one.

                      The traffic light system is a downright farce from a medical perspective, and if you had read the links in the comment you saw fit to derail before, you'd already know that Pfizer is involved in the Chinese traffic light system that we are probably 'meant' to be transitioned to – where instead of physical locations/areas being red/orange or green, an individual's pass turns green/red/orange and their movement restricted accordingly (by dint of scanning/signing in, which will be augmented by people physically checking a persons phone bound status if scanning appears to be being by-passed )

                    • weka

                      @Bill,

                      In the absence of direct answers to my question, I will infer the following (and really, if you want me to stop guessing what you mean, you will have to actually say),

                      1. you want MiQ to end
                      2. you want all vaccine passes to end
                      3. you want the traffic light system to end

                      If that isn't a let it rip strategy I don't know what is. I guess you haven't said what you want to happen at the borders, but this is the point: you believe something about omicron solving the pandemic and that we should just protect vulnerable people, but there's no actual real life basis to what you think we should be doing differently.

                      For instance, we still have delta in the community. Removing MiQ would lead to people dying, people getting long covid, and probably the health system being overrun and all the flow on effects from that including short, medium and long term impact on health care workers.

                      If you have a theory about how to let omicron become endemic (it's not endemic in NZ, we don't have any cases in the community yet), then maybe say what that is, because otherwise I'm going with 'let it rip and vulnerable people can look after themselves*'. It's a pretty natural conclusion from what you are saying.

                      Yes, there are important, multiple issues about government overreach that need addressing as well.

                      *vaccines and self care.

                • Bill

                  So isolate those known to have Delta for the mandatory 10 days or whatever it is, and have a shorter term of isolation for Omicron – ie, follow the science.

                  • weka

                    Funnily enough, I trust public health experts to understand how hospitals work in a pandemic situation. You believe that omicron is relatively harmless (doesn't kill anyone, is just a cold). Public health by definition has to be conservative.

                    • Bill

                      You believe that…

                      No Weka. It's what scientific research from source after source after source is showing.

                    • weka

                      you just said that omicron doesn't infect the lungs (quote: … It does not infect lung tissue…) and McFlock put up a link showing that it does.

                      if you mean that omicron infects the lungs to a much lesser degree, than say that. Because otherwise what you are saying sounds like a nonsense and in the absence of you providing source material it's just a bunch of FB reckons.

                      One reason that this matters, from a public health perspective, is that we still may have a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron despite it being less severe. More people being infected with a less severe illness still means a lot of people with severe illness. When they say less severe they're not saying less severe for everyone.

                    • Bill

                      There is zero data from any country further through the Omicron wave than Australia showing " a shit load of people with serious infections from omicron"

                    • Bill

                      and McFlock put up a link showing that it does.

                      To reiterate, presence is not the same as infection. The links and what-not are in the principle response to that confusion between a presence being detected and infection being detected.

                    • weka

                      @Bill, what's the long covid rate from asymptomatic omicron?

          • Koff 10.1.1.2.2

            NSW nursing staff who are Covid positive are working alongside those who are still not infected and their patients because of staff shortages. This is the result of the effects of the surge in Omicron infection that has overwhelmed NSW Health. The article that was linked to refers to a lack of prior planning for such an eventuality and does not explore just how severe Omicron is compared to Delta. As Weka points out, both Delta and Omicron are circulating together (in all Australian states apart from WA). This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.

            https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/jan/03/covid-positive-nurses-are-working-in-nsw-hospitals-due-to-severe-staffing-shortages

            • Bill 10.1.1.2.2.1

              This would also be the situation in NZ if Omicron leaked out.

              Would it? What are the current Delta numbers, bearing in mind that Omicron displaces Delta.

              Just a guess, but assuming NZs Public Health wallahs have already taken necessary protective measures for the vulnerable amongst us, then Omicron would spread far faster and wider than Delta supplying everyone it touched with immunity to any remaining Delta.

              • weka

                but assuming NZs Public Health wallahs have already taken necessary protective measures for the vulnerable amongst us,

                What does that mean?

                • Bill

                  I thought from previous comments you were touting yourself as somewhat of an expert on public health, no?

                  Double vaccination does not a lot. We know that. If the idea is have vulnerable people triple jabbed, then contingent on the time from when they received their second injection, they ought to be offered a third.

                  And (of course the stuff the wallahs have no interest in this) get the info on Vit D and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.

                  • weka

                    Well I understand what public health actually is.

                    Double vaccination does not a lot. We know that.

                    You assert that. Meanwhile, actual public health experts have explained in what ways double vaccination helps protect people and the population from covid. Double vaccination helps protect from delta and this protection wanes over time.

                    I guess there's some semantic arse covering in 'not a lot', but it's just ridiculous to argue that vaccination doesn't help. We wouldn't swap from delta to omicron overnight.

                    If the idea is have vulnerable people triple jabbed, then contingent on the time from when they received their second injection, they ought to be offered a third.

                    And (of course the stuff the wallahs have no interest in this) get the info on Vit D and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.

                    Triple jabbed – do you mean the booster or the third vax?

                    We know that vaccination is imperfect. So rather than protecting vulnerable people from exposure, you seem to be arguing that we should let them be exposed and take their chances with the imperfect vaccine and waning immunity.

                    What's the deal with the 6 months between second vax and booster, given the proposed switch from delta to omicron? What do you suggest in the meantime?

                    And how would we protect everyone that need protection (assuming we could even figure out who that is) when not everyone gets boostered or 3rd vax at the same time?

                    and other simple, and hitherto unmessaged, protective measures out there.

                    which would be what exactly?

                    • Bill

                      You assert that (Double vaccination does not a lot). Meanwhile…

                      No. Again. The studies. Read the studies. Look at the research. I'm not simply "asserting" anything. Double vaccination and protection from Omicron isn't much of an anything – it waltzes past.

                      Booster and triple jabbed are one and the same thing, no? 3x Pfizer.

                      Other protective measures might include (but would not be limited to) zinc, Vit D, Vit K2..and where relevant,losing weight, cutting down sugar intake, getting good rest/sleep, generally eating healthier.

                      And if the science had been followed, ivermectin would be available and worth taking as either a preventative medicine or to lessen effects upon infection. But, y'know, "horse paste" and a whelter of other propaganda/misinformation leading up to it being essentially banned in NZ in spite of its efficacy in place like Uttar Pradesh and (arguably) Japan.

                      I don't know if it's permitted in NZ, but hydroxychloroquine with zinc has been shown to help if given in the early stages of infection (But again, propaganda and deliberately sabotaged trials has left that one largely off the table)

                      Absent both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, there are still multiple fronts aside from injections and physical measures that people could be alerted to and encouraged on.

                    • weka

                      No. Again. The studies. Read the studies. Look at the research. I'm not simply "asserting" anything. Double vaccination and protection from Omicron isn't much of an anything – it waltzes past.

                      We still have delta. So does Australia. Omicron doesn't take over one night, we would have a period of time where we have both.

                      Booster and triple jabbed are one and the same thing, no? 3x Pfizer.

                      From what I can tell it's the same drug but the timing is quite different. The timing matters a great deal.

                      Other protective measures might include (but would not be limited to) zinc, Vit D, Vit K2..and where relevant,losing weight, cutting down sugar intake, getting good rest/sleep, generally eating healthier.

                      And for the people that can't do those things? You know, poor people, Māori, disabled people. I mean, I'm all for it, and have actively practiced this for decades.

                      But you can't get the population of a country to good natural immune status just like that. It takes time. Someone who has been living on white bread and coke for the past ten years isn't going to suddenly get strong immunity by eating healthier in the next month. Every little bit helps of course, but getting the kind of full nutritional status you are talking about is a process. And it depends on the gut functioning of the person as well if they can even absorb enough nutrients.

                      Lots of people cannot afford the kind of diet that makes a difference, or don't have the skills at managing that (eg cooking, knowing what to buy).

                      Many people have insomnia and other sleep disturbances that aren't easily addressed by 'getting good rest/sleep'. Many people use stimulants like sugar and coffee to keep themselves going and if they stop that suddenly it causes stress (psychological and physiological).

                      All the things you suggest there should be happening, but they're not and getting them to happen would be a long term plan.

                      Advocating personal responsibility during a public health crisis is hugely problematic politically if that is accompanied by advocating for less collective measures. At this point anyone able to do that kind of self care has to be on top of the public health response, not instead of. Because of vulnerable people.

                      How do I know this? Because I've spent decades in communities of people outside the mainstream who do exactly what you are saying to manage their health, myself included. Many of those people are also alternative health practitioners with training in their own fields and how our bodies work in a western medical frame. And they mostly said from early in the pandemic: do all the self care things that help but this alone will not protect you adequately from covid, get vaccinated as well for best protection. This is people in countries that had major covid early on alongside hospital overrun. And they're still saying that.

                      And if the science had been followed, ivermectin would be available and worth taking as either a preventative medicine or to lessen effects upon infection. But, y'know, "horse paste" and a whelter of other propaganda/misinformation leading up to it being essentially banned in NZ in spite of its efficacy in place like Uttar Pradesh and (arguably) Japan.

                      I don't know if it's permitted in NZ, but hydroxychloroquine with zinc has been shown to help if given in the early stages of infection (But again, propaganda and deliberately sabotaged trials has left that one largely off the table)

                      Absent both ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, there are still multiple fronts aside from injections and physical measures that people could be alerted to and encouraged on.

                      Sure, but we don't have those trials done, so why are you bringing this up in a conversation about how vulnerable people can be protected now, given you are advocating letting covid into the community now (delta and omicron)?

                    • weka

                      It's worth clarifying here that I see covid vaccination as a personal choice, and what I am talking about above is collective responsibility. This is what public health does, it protects the collective. Lots of flaws in how it does that, but that is its purpose.

                      I find much of the push back against the government's pandemic response to be libertarian, and this has as many political problems as liberals' acceptance of authoritarianism.

                      If the basis of let 'omicron naturalise' is personal responsibility and freedom, then that undermines socialism in ways that need to be debated as much as surveillance issues from the authoritarian state.

                      Public health has protected many of us for a long time, we shouldn't give that up so casually.

                  • Koff

                    Double jabs together with other public health measures plus TTIQ protect against infection by Delta and severe Omicron effects, but Omicron's surge means an all round ramped up approach – more pro-active public health measures (distancing, masks, restrictions on crowds), free access to RATs for testing and boosters. These are the things that should have been planned for in the Oz states that have enthusiastically reduced restrictions and haven't been. NZ's delay on border opening hopefully should allow NZ's MOH and politicians not to follow the mess Oz (and other countries) are in. The mess here is not caused by Project Fear or whatever you have called it, but libertarian politicians sidelining health and scientific advice and misjudging the latest phase of the pandemic.

                    • weka

                      Hard to see how the Feb border opening can happen given how little we still know. I guess if omicron is already in the community and spreading by then it will be an easier decision to make.

  10. Just Saying 11

    Authoritarianism is not the best way to deal with a public health emergency.

    Turns out there is research about this.

    The link above is a discussion between doctors Vinay Prasad and Zeb Janrozik. The second is also a medical ethicist whose specialist area is public health in managing infectious diseases. He argues that evidence shows that respect, and treating people as adults, yields superior results.

    It is worth noting that both have also worked as doctors in hospitals during the crisis.

  11. Just Saying 12

    Note above. Didn't intend to embed the video. I had thought it was just the link.

    Sorry

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