Open mike 07/10/2011

112 comments on “Open mike 07/10/2011 ”

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1. uke 1

   7 October 2011 at 7:07 am

   The Guardian’s live feed on the Occupy Wall Street protests.
    
   One interesting post noted that JP Morgan Chase has just donated US$4.6 million to the NYPD: “The gift was the largest in the history of the foundation and will enable the New York City Police Department to strengthen security in the Big Apple. The money will pay for 1,000 new patrol car laptops, as well as security monitoring software in the NYPD’s main data center.”
   • Bored 1.1

     7 October 2011 at 7:33 am

     Ther are some excellent articles on http://www.energybulletin.net.

     Of interest is the media coverage: apparently the MSM were not courted or invited by the protest. One specific reason is that they are in the pay of the people being protested against.

     Of more interest is the role of sites such as this one, the blogs and the sites set up specifically to overcome the MSM grip upon our minds. The OWSer sites are multiplying and linking with other sites, for the users this means the MSM can be cut out to get the word out. The real issue now is not that we dont have an alternative to the MSM, it is getting the critical mass to bypass them.

     In NZ if we wait for fair treatment from the MSM for our views, or for them to expose Jokey and his blackshirt privatisers for what they are we will be waiting a long time. How do we get critical mass?
     • AAMC 1.1.1

       7 October 2011 at 7:41 am

       How do we get critical mass, convince all you know to get onto Twitter. It seems to me, having been observing #occupywallstreet on it since the day before the action started, that when used as a tool to circumvent the MSM it is unsurpassed. It is a way to aggregate all of what you currently read and spread it exponentially.

       Although, the NYPD is not the only recent JP Morgan benefactor, they also just bought 400mill in Twitter shares .
       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 7:51 am

         Need to use those networks to build real physical relationships and contacts. We have already seen the authorities shut down websites and even cell phone transmission when it suited them to disrupt protests being planned.

         Worth remembering that in many ‘dictatorships’ activists refuse to use things like FB and twitter because the authorities can infiltrate and use the information gained against the movement.

         American intelligence agencies have broad and direct connection to everything which passes through GMail and Facebook for instance, access provided by those companies themselves, according to Julian Assange.
         • Ianupnorth 1.1.1.1.1

           7 October 2011 at 5:52 pm

           I heard on the radio that there is an application called ‘disconnect’ that is a free download which prevents the likes of Facebook snooping on your browsing.
       • AAMC 1.1.1.2

         7 October 2011 at 8:03 am

         Go to Avaaz and sign the petition of support for #occupywallstreet which will be displayed as a massive counter in Zuccotti park.

         http://www.avaaz.org/en/the_world_vs_wall_st/?sbc

         CV, surely the best way to prevent / push against the fascism you’re talking about is to continue to talk and agitate openly, in spite who might be watching. The moment you self edit, they’ve won. The moment you build a critical mass you win.

         I agree the connections need to be real and physical as well, but to reach critical mass we need to be able to connect with those we’re unlikely to meet in our normal lives but share convictions and ideals with also.
         • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.2.1

           7 October 2011 at 8:08 am

           I agree, and my point was not to self-edit as such, but to be aware of the security monitoring implications and also prepare for the day that TPTB flick the kill switch on those advanced systems that they own and control.

           Pen, paper and message runners may seem archaic but they also have strengths and uses as a communications medium in a hostile environment.
           • AAMC 1.1.1.2.1.1

             7 October 2011 at 8:29 am

             And so we need to act now in order to prevent that moment.

             I’m about to read a novel, which I believe was popular last year, slow adopter. Hans Fillada, Alone in Berlin, about exactly that, a man who used postcards deposited around Berlin as a way of protesting, disseminating info during Nazi reign, timely!
         • just saying 1.1.1.2.2

           7 October 2011 at 8:57 am

           AAMC and CV

           The moment you self edit, they’ve won.

           I often think this, especially when I hear people anxiously talking on comment threads here about what the right think, or would think, or might say, if they hear us say this or that, how they could use it against us etc. I wonder why they give such a big flying fuck about what the right think of us. I’m damn sure the right doesn’t knead its hands worrying about what we think of them. I think this kind of attitude is a big problem for the left.
           (However, self-editing abusive, non-inclusive (sexism, racism etc.), hyperbolic, polarised, overly personalised or competitive, egotistical, ungenerous and downright nasty communication is usually a good idea, in any community, imho).

           “..but to reach critical mass we need to be able to connect with those we’re unlikely to meet in our normal lives but share convictions and ideals with also.

           And filter information through our multiple real world networks. Like most of us here I’m sure, I spread the word about things like the “occupation” movement informally to left-leaning friends and acquaintances, especially those who rely on the mainstream media. The worst part of that is convincing people that things really are happening. When CERA was passed I had endless arguments, and needed to provide copious evidence of the what it meant because most people refused to believe that such a thing could happen without any coverage, and that trained, highly-paid journalists wouldn’t think it worth mentioning. For the most part, people are highly suspicious of information, even from “reliable” sources, that isn’t mainstream-reported, especially if it runs counter to what is.

           But e-links are fantastic and so effortless to share. I really appreciate many of the links provided by posters here. A vital part of my learning
           • AAMC 1.1.1.2.2.1

             7 October 2011 at 12:11 pm

             which is what is so clever and successful about the OWS movement, they’ve all got camera’s, every bit of it is documented. It’s just then up to us to disseminate it so as to over ride the MSM.

             A picture tells a thousand words they say, like video footage of cops waving protesters onto Brooklyn Bridge when the MSM narrative was that they were only arrested because they deviated from the footpath.
         • alex 1.1.1.2.3

           7 October 2011 at 1:54 pm

           Thanks AAMC, signed.
           • AAMC 1.1.1.2.3.1

             7 October 2011 at 2:20 pm

             Sorry, I’m spamming now, but here’s Naomi Klein’s speech at #occupywallstreet, pertinent to all of us!

             http://www.thenation.com/article/163844/occupy-wall-street-most-important-thing-world-now
             • AAMC …

               7 October 2011 at 4:10 pm

               Occupywallstreet press

               http://paper.li/occupymanhattan/1317517749

               Occupythehood

               http://vimeo.com/30146870
         • Mutante 1.1.1.2.4

           7 October 2011 at 4:27 pm

           I’m all for living out in the open too. I’ve found a lot of activist groups so insular and paranoid that it’s hard for anyone new to get involved. The Rob Gilchrist saga certainly didn’t help.
         • Vicky32 1.1.1.2.5

           7 October 2011 at 7:52 pm

           Go to Avaaz and sign the petition of support for #occupywallstreet which will be displayed as a massive counter in Zuccotti park.

           Doing that now.. 🙂
     • Colonial Viper 1.1.2

       7 October 2011 at 7:46 am

       In NZ if we wait for fair treatment from the MSM for our views, or for them to expose Jokey and his blackshirt privatisers for what they are we will be waiting a long time. How do we get critical mass?

       You can bypass the MSM in NZ for a mere $500K to $1M initial investment. You can set up an alternative internet TV news channel with a basic studio, hire a couple of journalists and an anchor, and link it into a satellite broadcast feed as well.

       Sign up a deal with Al Jazeera and RT for the international news content part of it and off you go. Broadcast 6 hours from 5pm to 11pm every night.
   • freedom 1.2

     7 October 2011 at 8:04 am

     Here is the OSW newspaper, over 70,000 in print and now collector’s items for sure. You can get your digital copy by clicking a couple of buttons. Citizen media is not a crime. It is our future.
     http://www.scribd.com/doc/67436424/Occupied-Wsj
     • AAMC 1.2.1

       7 October 2011 at 12:56 pm

       Podcast from Laurie Penny about watching as the crowed chanted the 1st Amendment as they were prevented from entering Wall St to protest yeaterday.

       http://www.theworld.org/2011/10/whats-american-about-the-occupywallstreet-protests/
   • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 1.3

     7 October 2011 at 10:56 am

     Makes a mockery of the claim from many lefties/tax-lovers that the rich don’t/wont donate to public service, eh?
2. Colonial Viper 2

   7 October 2011 at 7:37 am

   Good talk about Marxian economics and the state of the US from Richard Wolff. Richard has also been supporting the Occupy Wall St protest.

   http://podcast.lannan.org/2011/09/21/richard-wolff-with-anthony-arnove-conversation-13-september-2011-video/
3. tc 3

   7 October 2011 at 7:55 am

   Like to see a lot more published about the corrupt decisions behind supershity IT systems…..picking either ARC or AKL city’s SAP and upsizing it would’ve been fine.

   Wodney, Ford and his water care IT man Foley, now supershity CIO behind the NACTs rushed and botched grab for assets should be interrogated.

   Also there’s some big stuff still underway yet to be costed like another new inventory system……when you already have SAP…WTF !

   akl needs to be shown as mike lee states that it’s been taken to the cleaners by these self serving highly paid yes men.
4. Tigger 4

   7 October 2011 at 8:20 am

   http://m.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.php?c_id=1&objectid=10757131
   Truly bizarre ‘journalism’ here, expects us to believe English is happy. He’s not. He’s lashing out behind the scenes according to my sources. Not a happy chappy at all given that we’re in financial crap and no one has any ideas how to dig us ou.
   • travellerev 4.1

     7 October 2011 at 8:26 am

     Somebody should tell him he could be the hero if he exposes John Key for what he is and the role he had in getting the global economy in the chaos it’s in today. Mr. Derivative would be a good nickname for Shonkey.

     The next step would be to ditch the reserve banks and reserve act and us starting to print our own money again. Get rid of the foreign banks next and bob’s your uncle. The Icelanders did and it worked miracles for them.
      
   • vto 4.2

     7 October 2011 at 8:38 am

     Watch for post-election tax rises if the nats return.
     • Eddie 4.2.1

       7 October 2011 at 8:50 am

       English has as good as admitted as much. Money is needed to refill the EQC coffers. But the Nats want to put off the announcement.
       • Pete George 4.2.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 8:57 am

         Announcing is to National like listening is to Labour, and like continuity is to Act
         • mickysavage 4.2.1.1.1

           7 October 2011 at 9:04 am

           … and like getting votes is to United Future.
           • Pete George 4.2.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2011 at 9:09 am

             You’re confused about known current with unknown future.
             • mickysavage …

               7 October 2011 at 9:27 am

               You are confused about United Future’s relevance.
               • Pete George …

                 7 October 2011 at 9:37 am

                 It looks likely UnitedFuture will maintain or increase it’s number of seats.
                 It looks likely Labour will get less seats.

                 It looks likely UnitedFuture will be a part of the next Government.
                 It looks unlikely Labour will be a part of the next Government.

                 Your point?
                 • mickysavage …

                   7 October 2011 at 9:52 am

                   It looks likely UnitedFuture will maintain or increase it’s number of seats
                    
                   Yeah right.
                    
                   It looks likely UnitedFuture will be a part of the next Government
                    
                   You should not equate being a poodle with being relevant.
                   • Pete George …

                     7 October 2011 at 9:58 am

                     You accusing others of being poodles is kinda funny.

                     Micky went to the telegraph office, wrote “Woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof woof” on a form and handed it over at the counter.

                     The cleark said “You could add one more woof to that for no extra charge”.

                     Micky replied “But that would make no sense at all”.
                   • mickysavage …

                     7 October 2011 at 9:07 pm

                     Pete you just lost the only possible vote for UF amongst the ranks of readers of the Standard.  Well done, keep it up.
                   • mik e …

                     7 October 2011 at 9:38 pm

                     Their is a Kronic shortage of political satire in this country aye PG
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   7 October 2011 at 10:15 am

                   It’s support is at 0.8% which equates to one seat, 5% threshold, Ergo, the only chance they have of getting a seat is to win an electorate and that’s looking less and less likely.
                   • Ianupnorth …

                     7 October 2011 at 5:59 pm

                     Does Pete do stand up too?
       • vto 4.2.1.2

         7 October 2011 at 9:00 am

         Right.. hadn’t noticed. English and Key should be hammered over that possibility during the election campaign then.
   • Lanthanide 4.3

     7 October 2011 at 10:52 am

     Link doesn’t work for me.

     Use this one: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10757131
5. mickysavage 5

   7 October 2011 at 8:22 am

   The Herald has an article this morning with the heading ”
   King won’t back down on ‘scumbag’ insult to PM”.
    
   Shouldn’t the question have been directed to the PM asking if he regretted performing the Kapa O Pango in Parliament and the headline reporting his response?

    
   • Blue 5.1

     7 October 2011 at 9:00 am

     Cheer up, Micky. There was some good news in the Herald this morning:

     http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10757133
     • gobsmacked 5.1.1

       7 October 2011 at 10:41 am

       Alternative universe:

       Labour speaker Margaret Wilson has banned Herald journalists from Parliament. “It’s a disgrace – the very worst of Hel*ngr*d”, according to all right-wing blogs and parrots. “Save free speech!”.

       Of course that was then and this is now, and outrageous is the new nice. So … silence on the right.

       Seriously, this is an absurd over-reaction by the Speaker, and whatever we may think of the Herald’s reporting, banning them for doing their job is totally unjustified. An election campaign without reporters? Must be John Key’s wet dream.
       • Blue 5.1.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 10:55 am

         Yes, Lockwood has gotten a bit carried away on his little power trip.

         But banning Key and National’s biggest cheerleaders from Parliament for 10 days during an election campaign so counterproductive that it’s funny.

         Perhaps the Herald can wheel out their ‘democracy under attack’ slogans again.
   • freedom 5.2

     7 October 2011 at 9:09 am

     pity there is only the one feed from the House now as the editing in the video does not show this moment where Key is reported to have leaned over to Brownlee and made the comment about security, i smell a big fat moment of plausible deniability. I do wonder if the full feed from all cameras is recorded for Security reasons and an Official Info request could release this magic moment thus proving the reported commment to be true.
   • just saying 5.3

     7 October 2011 at 9:10 am

     From your linked article:
     ..it’s been reported that Mr Key also turned to Gerry Brownlee and said: “And they wonder why I have security.” still no source for this allegation, though it’s been widely reported as fact.

     Even if he did go on to say that then, (and I don’t believe he did), it doesn’t change what he had already said and done, and the ‘angry about the bodyguard issue’ explanation still doesn’t stack up for that.

     Loving the ‘they’re as bad as each other’ masking technique.
6. Jim Nald 6

   7 October 2011 at 8:22 am

   Love to see NZ wages drop?

   Here’s your blighted future …

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/employment/news/article.cfm?c_id=11&objectid=10757038
7. prism 7

   7 October 2011 at 9:22 am

   The IRB is fair and an equal opportunity purveyor of high moments of sporting achievement and passion and low moments of injury and punishment and this applies to well-off players and poorer players alike. The thing is that any rule it makes is fair, so imposing large penalties off the field for mouthguard offences is ergo and ipso facto a good and right law.

   The IRB is God. There is no other God. Or if a player wants to display alternative religious messages they must be too small for a television camera to pick up.

   And the IRB may be right to seek exclusivity on advertising from this direction. There is money to be made from promulgating forms of religion. The IRB knows this and will no doubt seek sponsorship from God or his/her earthly agents soon. That’s an idea that could work for NZ Inc.
   Religion as a ‘good” – perhaps NZ can become another holy centre for the world and have people flocking to our sacred sites and to listen to our message of purity in the environment and how to achieve it in person. ‘:???:’ Icon confused! Quite right.
8. alex 8

   7 October 2011 at 10:01 am

   Just reposting a quote from No Right Turn over the Video Surveillance Bill.

   There were 438 submissions – and only 6 in favour. So, we have a government of the 1.5%, stomping on the human rights of the rest of us.

   This was from the select committee. I’m angry at National for this awful law, but I’m also angry at the Labour types on this blog who didn’t pressure their leadership to listen to people. It wasn’t a compromise that you won. You rolled over. Congrats.
   • Lanthanide 8.1

     7 October 2011 at 10:57 am

     “It wasn’t a compromise that you won. You rolled over. Congrats.”

     I simply disagree.

     Note that Act and United Future both voted it through the final stages. If Labour had opposed it, National only had to change it enough for Act to agree to vote for it, which could have been less than what Labour was seeking.

     In the end, if Labour hadn’t done the deal they did, we may have ended up with a worse law being passed anyway with the edition of Labour looking weak in the media. This way they come off looking powerful while also delivering a better law.

     Politics – the art of the possible.
     • alex 8.1.1

       7 October 2011 at 1:40 pm

       But Act wasn’t particularly interested in the bill, neither was the Maori Party, and United, well, they would have gone with National but that doesn’t make up the numbers. There was a chance to have this law not make it through before the end of the term, I think that chance should have been taken.
       • Colonial Viper 8.1.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 1:45 pm

         A betting man.

         And the consequences of losing the bet and the NATs passing the original, unwatered down bill through? Think of that?
         • alex 8.1.1.1.1

           7 October 2011 at 1:51 pm

           Then National look like ogres, and you can repeal it when they get voted out.
           • mickysavage 8.1.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2011 at 9:15 pm

             Alex I made a submission.  I thought the bill was an abomination.  The Labour negotiated change was a lot better.  There is one dead rat in it, people who had evidence of covert surveillance at their trial cannot appeal the decision relying on the fact that Hamed showed that the power to video was wrong.

             This is wrong in principle but way, way better than what was proposed.  Few if any may be affected by it.

             You can accuse Labour of selling out or of intervening and making the bill considerably better.  Such is the life of an opposition party. 
             • alex …

               8 October 2011 at 10:57 am

               Yeah I made a submission too, can’t get up in arms about something if you aren’t prepared to do anything.
   • lprent 8.2

     7 October 2011 at 1:02 pm

     Not quite correct, in fact I’d say deliberately wrong.

     There were 438 submissions and only 6 in favour of the bill put up by the government.

     I don’t suppose you have ever figured out what the purpose of the select committee is? It is to modify legislation. The purpose of almost all submissions is usually to suggest ways in which that should be achieved. So substantive submissions (rather than the rather meaningless postcard ones) usually don’t oppose the bills, the say where it is flawed and what should be done to fix it.

     If you wanted a accurate statement for what you want to imply, then you perhaps you should count only the submissions that say that the police should never be able to use video surveillance?
9. randal 9

   7 October 2011 at 10:17 am

   BORED.
   there are two things ‘we’ can do to address the balance of fairness in the media.
   1. everybody on here start a blog and write what they FEEL. Mention names and make persons responssible. this blog is like two featherweights sparring. They dont hurt each other and nobody watches except the specialists. the average kiwi has no idea what goes on here. A personal blog may not seem like it is making much headway but the search engines and the rss make sure the audience is amplified and talked about especially when the writer is not constrained by the operations of parliamentary process politics.
   2. the Labour party needs to spend some money and buy micropulse radio stations and programme them with handmade music. i.e. folk music, blues, pacific islands choral groups etc.
   anything that is not rapcrap, or teenage whining gamines.
   This blog is by extension an arm of the parliamentary party but things must change or Labour will always be behind the eight ball trying to joust with the tories and their hammerlock on the msm.

   [lprent: You were doing so well until this – “This blog is by extension an arm of the parliamentary party…”. You have to know I will react to it.

   And no it isn’t. I’m sure that some of the authors apart from Ben have contact with Labour and Green MP’s and various candidates of the left and receive frequent suggestions like I do. After all we’re interested in politics and especially that of the broad left. But like me they will tend to take about as much notice of those as we do of the local concern trolls – not much.

   Both make you feel like Pete George’s suggestions. You know that there is a concern for what they can push you to do for them rather than what they can do for for the author, the site, or in most cases people outside their narrow definitions of being important (like most of the public).

   Even the known authors generally don’t hear much from MP’s or candidates apart from being on their general mailing lists. I suspect most of the feedback goes the other way with them reading us based on the reactions I sometimes hear (usually after Irish writes…). ]
   • higherstandard 9.1

     7 October 2011 at 10:22 am

     “This blog is by extension an arm of the parliamentary party but things must change or Labour will always be behind the eight ball trying to joust with the tories and their hammerlock on the msm.”

     Alert alert alert!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9.1.1

       7 October 2011 at 10:34 am

       “RICK: That’s all very well! But finally, after years of stagnation, the TV people have woken up to the need for locally-based minority programs! Made by amateurs! And perhaps of interest only to two or three people! It’s important, right? It’s now!”
       • swordfish 9.1.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 4:46 pm

         Please leave The Young Ones and Monty Python alone. They’re not there for Tories to play with.
         • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 9.1.1.1.1

           7 October 2011 at 5:00 pm

           That’s the left for you. Always appropriating ownership of stuff that isn’t theirs.
           • Colonial Viper 9.1.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2011 at 9:33 pm

             That’s the left for you. Always appropriating ownership of stuff that isn’t theirs.

             Like farmers sucking the ground water dry?
           • Puddleglum 9.1.1.1.1.2

             7 October 2011 at 10:41 pm

             You need to have a chat with Rik Mayall and Alexei Sayle sometime. No appropriation required.
     • mik e 9.1.2

       7 October 2011 at 9:41 pm

       That would undermine democracy lowering the standard again for personal gain
   • alex 9.2

     7 October 2011 at 10:37 am

     If this blog is an extension of Labour, please explain why you wimps sold out on the Video Surveillance Bill.

     [lprent: We are not and did not.

     There is quite a range of views between authors on that subject. I’m almost certainly one of the harshest critics of the police actions in operation 8 and other attacks on activists – especially because of their deliberate collection of evidence in an unlawful manner. The resulting bill was broadly acceptable to me as a stopgap until the S&S bill gets debated fully.

     So I’d say that in my opinion and bearing in mind you haven’t actually stated an argument, that you’re displaying the outrage of an a person being a bit of an idiot who probably hasn’t thought through either issue. ]
     • alex 9.2.1

       7 October 2011 at 1:35 pm

       A fair response, I had assumed NRT was talking about the submissions against the compromise as he was indicting politicians in general, as opposed to National. Apologies for my error.
       But I am outraged that the police (and others) can now spy on people with such ease. Yes, I understand that criminals might get off now, but if thats the trade off for defending civil liberties, so be it. And I think Labour would have been better off trying to kick up a fuss and be the opposition, rather than try and accommodate National. There’s a reason people think they are very similar. Labour should be risking being painted as soft on crime by the right, in order to potentially gain the support of the left back. The ‘tough on crime’ types will never vote Labour anyway, no point in trying to get them onside.
   • Misanthropic Curmudgeon 9.3

     7 October 2011 at 11:00 am

     Randal says “the Labour party needs to spend some money”, which raises several points:
     1) Labour have very little of their own to spend
     2) Labours has lost of practioce spending others
     • McFlock 9.3.1

       7 October 2011 at 12:47 pm

       Two points. The second of which is foolish, because spending others’ money is cheaper than the National practise of borrowing huge amounts of money and sending the bill to others.
       • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.1

         7 October 2011 at 1:40 pm

         nice one

         MC does it need to be explained to you that every dollar of Government spending which is not collected in TAXES needs to be BORROWED* from China, Abu Dhabi, Japan, etc and the paid back with INTEREST?

         If not just get Bill English to explain it to you, he’s the expert aat Government borrowing.

         *Actually we could just print the money we needed ourselves, and not borrow it from foreign bankers.
         • Draco T Bastard 9.3.1.1.1

           7 October 2011 at 2:41 pm

           *Actually we could just print the money we needed ourselves, and not borrow it from foreign bankers.

           It would still need to be collected as taxes but at least we’d not have the rort of interest to pay on it.
           • Colonial Viper 9.3.1.1.1.1

             7 October 2011 at 9:34 pm

             Taxes are OK, as long as they go back into infrastructure and services provided for the benefit of the people.
10. Brett Dale 10

    7 October 2011 at 10:20 am

    What is critical mass??? This has been mentioned on several boards.
    • AAMC 10.1

      7 October 2011 at 12:17 pm

      It’s now in 756 cities, so I suggest you continue watching, and we’ll see if critical mass is reached….

      http://www.occupytogether.org/
    • McFlock 10.2

      7 October 2011 at 12:48 pm

      Think “tipping point”, but with uranium. Then apply it an analogy for movements for social change.
    • Puddleglum 10.3

      7 October 2011 at 10:34 pm

      If one person in a rugby team is upset with the coach that’s a whinger. If four (senior) people in the team are upset, that’s critical mass.
11. Dave Kennedy 11

    7 October 2011 at 10:31 am

    If we can’t handle an oil leak from a wrecked ship, how will we manage the environmental impacts of the rampant oil exploration that National is planning…?
    http://localbodies-bsprout.blogspot.com/2011/10/sinking-ship-reveals-flaw-in-energy.html
    • Draco T Bastard 11.1

      7 October 2011 at 11:17 am

      We can’t and NAct have no intention of making it so that we can. Doing so costs money and that means that they would have to put taxes up and they won’t do that – unless it’s taxes on the less well off like GST.
    • marty mars 11.2

      7 October 2011 at 12:13 pm

      exactly dave – I agree with your comment and post.

      “This is a test case for the response teams and if this turns into more of an environmental danger it will be clear that we have little defence against these events – and they want more drilling for oil and more potential disasters. Sadly we will have to get expert at cleaning up oil spills and we will have to learn how to decontaminate birds and dispose of dead fish and animals, and we will have to learn how to clean oil out of sand and wetlands and of course, the open water. Yes, unless we stop their exploitation we will have to learn many new skills.”

      http://mars2earth.blogspot.com/2011/10/oil-off-tauranga.html
      • Draco T Bastard 11.2.1

        7 October 2011 at 12:29 pm

        Yes, unless we stop their exploitation we will have to learn many new skills.

        All of which the NActs won’t budget for showing their complete misunderstanding of the economy.
        • marty mars 11.2.1.1

          7 October 2011 at 1:11 pm

          yes, better to stop it before it begins – the new skills we really need to learn are community orientated and the opposite to the current “absurdity of expecting to get away with infinite economic growth on a finite planet,” as the Archdruid has outlined in his most recent post

          http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.com/
          • Colonial Viper 11.2.1.1.1

            7 October 2011 at 11:03 pm

            JMG rocks
12. Jim Nald 12

    7 October 2011 at 10:40 am

    The Fourth Estate under attack
    Democracy under attack
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/5748326/Heralds-Parliament-ban-over-photo-raises-media-ire
    • gobsmacked 12.1

      7 October 2011 at 10:49 am

      It’s disgraceful. As I said up-thread, you can just imagine the reaction if Clark/Wilson had done this.

      I hope the Press Gallery unite and stand firm on this.
13. pollywog 13

    7 October 2011 at 11:16 am

    Can someone tell me again why NZ rugby signed Carter and McCaw for another 4 seasons for probably an obscene amount of coin, when it looks likely that they won’t play any part in winning the wool cup, if indeed NZ win it at all ?

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all-blacks/5748117/McCaw-faces-major-test-surviving-three-finals

    Jerome Kaino is the one player we can’t do without, Ma’a Nonu second and they’ll be fired up no end given the shoddy treatment Samoa got with their draw and refs.

    And if Eliota Fuimaono-Sapolu ever ran for politics he’d blitz Michael Jones or whoever the hell other token nigga Labour or National put up against him.
    • Chris 13.1

      7 October 2011 at 11:57 am

      Because McCaw and Carter bring in a lot more money than the others you mentioned. Just look how many ads have Carter in them
      • Lanthanide 13.1.1

        7 October 2011 at 12:08 pm

        Note that most of the ads that have Carter in them, he isn’t representing the All Blacks, he’s representing himself and therefore gets all the money. Same with Sonny Bill when he did the Rebel Sport ads.

        The All Blacks actually have a rule that in any media advertising that contains the All Black brand there must be at least 3 team members involved, as this (apparently) shows that they are a team.
        • Chris 13.1.1.1

          7 October 2011 at 1:13 pm

          Yeah I am aware of that, but I would be very surprised if they did not get a cut of any personal sponsorships – to be fair I am basing this on the fact that they can stop any player promoting anything that they don’t like or conflicts with one of their current sponsors.

          Either way they will bring more money in, because you can guarantee that when Rexona wants Dan Carter to feature in their ads along with Mils etc they have to pay more than they would if they were getting someone like Anthony Boric.

          Also finally having players of that stature involved lift the All Blacks brand as a whole increasing the value – without McCaw Carter and Sonny-Bill there would be a lot of sponsors looking elsewhere to spend their money.
          • pollywog 13.1.1.1.1

            8 October 2011 at 1:13 am

            oh chur…

            Never mind that McCaw can barely make it through this campaign without breaking down and we’re saddled with him for the next four years regardless, in one of the most competitive and demanding positions on the field.

            I guess rugby isn’t the winner on the day then, but you’d only have to look at Samoa getting fucked over by that racist welsh cunt siding with them cheating jappie muthafuckas to know that.

            If NZ do win the wool cup i’d love to se the Samoan allblacks do the Siva Tau in honour of their motherland.

            and lastly fuck the greedy IRB, SANZAR and the NZRU.
14. Herodotus 14

    7 October 2011 at 11:43 am

    Is there any update on Wainuiototo?
    Even the Geens with Frog were pushing this. It has all gone quiet. With Labour weekend fast looming and isn’t there an election? Perhaps the time is ripe for this to regain some prominence?
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/4509605/Message-to-protect-New-Chums-Beach
    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/goff-weighs-in-coromandel-development-3757065
15. randal 15

    7 October 2011 at 12:01 pm

    The dompost had a tom scott cartoon this morning implying that 3D (dipton double dipper) had inherited the deposit guarantee scheme from Labour but I distinctly heard him [English} say that they [national] had done it themselves on 9-noon on Monday. so the fiasco was all his own work. The msm wont take him on because it meant that he paid off his own [and theirs] mates.
    • Chris 15.1

      7 October 2011 at 1:15 pm

      I didn’t think there was any doubt that Labour started the deposit guarantee scheme. National were the ones that resigned SCF though. Arguably that just stopped them going under earlier, but not sure delaying it really accomplished anything.
      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        7 October 2011 at 1:54 pm

        SCF could have been re-signed on, but any bond holders and depositers should have taken 50% hair cuts on amounts over $250K as a condition of resigning.

        That would have stopped the awful self serving speculative activity which occurred.
        • Chris 15.1.1.1

          7 October 2011 at 2:42 pm

          Yeah that would have probably been the best way but I’m still convinced that basically taking half of the major investors funds would have left the company as a viable going concern.
          • Chris 15.1.1.1.1

            7 October 2011 at 4:44 pm

            Sorry that was meant to say not convinced.
16. Pete George 16

    7 October 2011 at 12:55 pm

    Delahunty on Vote Chat: “I would resign from Parliament if the Greens were to support a National government”.

    Wow. She’s putting herself forward for three years or not?
    • alex 16.1

      7 October 2011 at 1:48 pm

      Pete, there is very deep unease among Green members about a deal with National. Metiria Turei spelt it out when they first made the announcement that they were considering a deal, but it got ignored. There is a very long list of Green demands that would have to be met before any deal, and frankly, many members would leave, possibly destroying the Green party in the process. And at the end of the day, the members have the final say anyway.
      • Pete George 16.1.1

        7 October 2011 at 2:04 pm

        I understand that alex – the point I’m making is that if they stand for parliament shouldn’t they accept any democratic process? Saying you will resign (almost straight away) if your party does something you disagree with would seem to make a mockery of the election.

        The Green Party is really going to have to work out their approach properly before the election if the alternative is to risk resignations within a month.
        • mik e 16.1.1.1

          7 October 2011 at 9:44 pm

          United future doesn’t have a polcy except to grese up the majority party the same way that would explain the hair style and the brown nose.
17. Jum 17

    7 October 2011 at 1:04 pm

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10757227

    This is fascinating; the press crying out about the speaker, Lockwood Smith, banning the herald journalists from Parliament for 10 days because Audrey took a photo of that man trying to throw himself off the balcony into the parliamentary bear pit.

    Hilarious the press complaining about freedom of the press when a) they don’t report objectively so take away my freedom to have a fair and objective reporting of what happens in New Zealand and
    b) the journalists in the main are owned and controlled by Key and co or the newspaper owners.

    Move along ladies and gentleman – nothing in the way of free press in New Zealand – move along; nothing to see here.

    Lockwood trying to shut down a bad look for Key and Bennett – Parliament taking away the freedom of New Zealanders to have an objective look at our parliamentary actions and consequences of those actions by Key and Bennett. That is shameful.
    • Lanthanide 17.1

      7 October 2011 at 1:19 pm

      No, I think Lockwood is just sticking to the letter of the standing order and not allowing for the exceptional circumstances of the case.

      I think he should have banned them for 1 or 2 days as a point not to take standing orders lightly.
      • Pete George 17.1.1

        7 October 2011 at 1:21 pm

        I agree, I think some penalty was warranted but 10 days seems too harsh.
      • Draco T Bastard 17.1.2

        7 October 2011 at 2:47 pm

        Personally, I’d prefer it if those standing orders were removed.
18. Cloaca 18

    7 October 2011 at 1:32 pm

    Where has “Red Alert” gone today ?

    Are they no longer bothering to so called “blog” ? Not surprised – getting more useless – go “Staandard”.
19. aerobubble 19

    7 October 2011 at 1:34 pm

    The other day I was thinking about the faster than speed of light neutrinos problem
    and wonder whether the source and detector were at the same height, then realized
    the mountainous location may have altered gravity, but that would not make much
    sense since they fire particles through there all the time. But it may turn out that
    because the neutrinos are traveling so fast that General Reality plus the location
    may have effects… …nice. Unintended consequences thing again, put note in
    diary, ever asked to build particle accelerator build near large mountains.
20. randal 20

    7 October 2011 at 1:54 pm

    Lprent. Ididnt know how you would react but I do now.

    [lprent: I always do to any suggestion that any political party runs this site, and especially a parliamentary wing (technophobia seems to be a primary characteristic of the genre in my unhumble opinion). It is as irritating as hell and leads to to the most boring and futile speculative discussions imaginable to the people who run the site. I always put on the old spiked boots and rake offenders until they understand exactly how irritated I get. This discourages reoffending. ]
21. Penny Bright 21

    7 October 2011 at 3:12 pm

    Where the hell are these Maritime New Zealand ‘oil spill response experts’ Minister of Transport – Steven Joyce?

    “Maritime New Zealand
    Organisation governance and structure

    Maritime New Zealand is a Crown entity established in 1993 under the name Maritime Safety Authority. It was renamed Maritime New Zealand (MNZ) in July 2005.
    Maritime New Zealand is governed by an independent Board appointed by the Governor General on the recommendation of the Minister of Transport.

    The five-member Authority directs the overall Maritime New Zealand strategy, and appoints the Director of Maritime New Zealand.

    The Director manages the organisation and has independent statutory powers under the Maritime Transport Act 1994.

    http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/About-us/About-Maritime-New-Zealand.asp

    Maritime New Zealand Statement of Intent: 2011–2014

    “3. Marine pollution response

    Almost 10 million tonnes of oil is transported around New Zealand’s pristine coastline by oil tankers
    every year. Maritime New Zealand operates the Marine Pollution Response Service, whose oil spill
    response experts are able to respond to significant oil spills in New Zealand, and overseas if required.
    These specialists maintain the National Oil Spill Response Plan and manage the national stockpile of
    oil spill response equipment. They also conduct oil spill exercises and training for regional responders.”

    Really?

    Penny Bright
    Independent ‘Public Watchdog’
    Candidate for Epsom
22. thejackal 22

    7 October 2011 at 4:47 pm

    BOP Oil Spill Response Failure

    Authorities have dismally failed to react properly to the grounding of the 236-metre cargo vessel MV Rena, which struck Astrolabe Reef north of Motiti Island in the Bay of Plenty on Wednesday at approx 2.20 AM…
23. Penny Bright 23

    7 October 2011 at 5:15 pm

    Concern about Corexit 9500 being used in the BP Gulf of Mexico oil spill – it’s the same ‘dispersant’ being used NOW in NZ – and it has been banned since 1998 by the UK!

    FYI.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2010/may/16/louisiana-oil-spill-toxic-chemical-bp

    Louisiana oil spill: toxic chemical fear over BP’s clean-up efforts

    Officials, scientists and fishermen warn of threat to sealife in the Gulf of Mexico
    Peter Beaumont
    The Observer, Sunday 16 May 2010

    Scientists have raised urgent new concerns over the latest efforts to mitigate the catastrophic oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico caused by the oil rig explosion on BP’s Deepwater Horizon. Latest efforts to limit the environmental damage involve an untried deep-water technique, using a toxic dispersant that they believe may damage ocean life. But the new method has so far only succeeded in ratcheting up the growing controversy surrounding the spill.

    …………………

    Approval by the US Environment Protection Agency (EPA) for the pumping of tens of thousands of litres of the chemical Corexit 9500 deep on to the seabed early yesterday comes despite warnings from Louisiana state health officials, scientists and fishermen that the technique is untested and potentially hazardous to marine life and the wider ecosystem. Louisiana officials claim BP and the EPA ignored their concerns about how the chemicals may harm the sea floor.”

    Corexit 9500 is being used NOW in NZ!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/waikato-times/news/5745996/BoP-faces-ecological-disaster

    BoP faces ecological disaster
    Stricken container ship still leaking oil

    Despite initial indications that dispersant was effective , further analysis last night confirmed the Corexit 9500 was not dispersing the oil, Mr Service said. ”

    http://www.maritimenz.govt.nz/Publications-and-forms/Environmental-protection/OPPRC-Review-February-2011.pdf
    10.6 Dispersants and Dispersant Application Systems
    MNZ holds a range of dispersants suitable for application to differing oil types, including heavy fuel oil. Arguably, the most effective dispersant for use on heavier oils, including crude oil, is Corexit 9500. New Zealand‘s entire 30,000 litres stock of Corexit 9500 is held at NOSSC Te Atatu. ”

    COREXIT 9500 HAS BEEN BANNED IN THE UK SINCE 1998 – BECAUSE IT DID NOT PASS THE ‘ROCKY SHORE TEST’

    http://www.marinemanagement.org.uk/protecting/pollution/documents/approval_approved_products.pdf

    All products approved after 1 April 1996 have been required to pass both the Sea/Beach and Rocky Shore Toxicity Tests. Any products coming up for renewal that have only passed the Sea/Beach toxicity test in the past are required, before they can be renewed, to pass the Rocky Shore Test also. The following products have been removed from the list of approved products because they did not pass the Rocky Shore Test when submitted for renewal:
    •
    Chemkleen OSDA JAC (removed from list 21/01/1998)
    •
    Corexit 9527 (removed from list 30/07/1998)
    •
    Corexit 9500 (removed from list 30/07/1998).
    Existing stocks of these products may still be used away from rocky shorelines in appropriate conditions. Approval should be sought from the relevant licensing authority before any proposed use.”

    __________________________________________________________________________

    Penny Bright
    Independent ‘Public Watchdog’
    Candidate for Epsom
    • Ianupnorth 23.1

      7 October 2011 at 6:08 pm

      They’ll be like the Mines Inspection body; they’ll have a bloke with a Tinny boat, a 15 hp outboard and a bottle of washing up liquid.
24. Jenny 24

    7 October 2011 at 9:27 pm

    The stranding of the Containership Rena on Wednesday morning, occurred in clear fine weather which has persisted for 3 days now. This clear weather is due to deteriorate starting tomorrow with a change in wind direction around midday.

    It is expected that by the middle of the week it will be too late, high winds will prevent any attempt to unload the fuel oil from the Rena and the likely hood is high that before the next calm period the ship will be broken on the reef.

    It appears that the resources that could have taken advantage of the good weather to pump ALL the oil from this ship are near at hand have been sitting idle and unused.

    Collapsible rapid response emergency oil barges made to deal with just this sort of emergency are right here in New Zealand. With even more available in Australia. These collapsable oil barges are specifically designed and made to be deployed instantly in just such an emergency.

    Sail-World magazine report, that Lancer Industries here in New Zealand manufacture inflatable barges designed specifically to allow oil to be offloaded from ships which have run aground to prevent significant spillage and environmental damage. The barges from Lancer are owned by many maritime authorities around the world including the US Coast Guard.

    Able to hold 100 tonnes of oil at a time, they can be delivered in folded up form not much bigger than an office desk. Once filled they can then be towed ashore and after being emptied can be reused.

    “Lancer barges are designed to be taken alongside a vessel and have the oil pumped into them directly, before being towed ashore to a shore installation”

    ‘These barges can also be used in a cleanup operation to skim oil that has already leaked, reducing the need to use dispersant’.

    Three days down the track these emergency barges have not been deployed.

    Why?

    Martime New Zealand own two of these barges.

    Sail-World believes that the Martime NZ Lancer barges are located in Te Atatu only a few hours trip by road to Tauranga.

    Have these barges been delivered to the scene of the disaster?

    If not, why not?

    Sail-World also reports that all major governments of the world have agreements in place to fly in such equipment, in the case of an oil spill or pending disaster to offload fuel oil and reduce the extent of any damage.

    These additional barges could easily be flown in from Australia if required.

    Has our government made this call?

    If not, why not?

    As well as the two Maritime NZ owned emergency barges, Lancer Industries ltd who are based in the Auckland suburb of Henderson have just made some more of these barges for the US Coastguard with significantly more capacity than the two owned by Maritime NZ.

    Why have these barges not been requisitioned as an emergency measure?

    These specially designed barges, built for just this sort of scenario, are all owned by private concerns and different authorities.

    Why is there no single government authority which in an emergency could commandeer these resources?

    Why aren’t these purpose built emergency oil barges already on the scene and being deployed to unload the oil before the weather deteriorates?

    Emergency barges are good. But they are useless without tugboats.

    Only today, this afternoon in fact, have two large tugs departed from Auckland for Tauranga to deal with the disaster.

    Why the delay?

    Why were they not dispatched immediately?

    Were the commercial operations of the Ports of Auckland given priority over this unfolding disaster?

    Who made this decision?

    If the weather window closes and the ship is broken on the reef to discharge it’s full load of oil into the ocean. Will anyone be held accountable?
    • Draco T Bastard 24.1

      7 October 2011 at 10:14 pm

      More proof that cutting government is bad for society – and the RWNJs want to cut even more.

      Our inability to respond shows just what happens when you plan for when things go wrong. We’ve seen it in Chch, Pike River and now on a reef off of Tauranga.
    • pollywog 24.2

      8 October 2011 at 1:26 am

      If i was any sort of conspiracy theorist i’d see a manufactured media shitstorm about an impending eco crisis, replete with dire warnings for wildlife, just by delaying gov’t response to take the heat off the drunken monkey’s throat slitting antics in parliament this week…

      …then get that chump Joyce to deny responsibilty for taking charge by saying the gov’t are in no position to take the lead on this issue

      …and corexit doesn’t disperse the oil, it sinks it and lets natural tidal/current forces break it up. Out of sight out of mind is what the oil companies want us to see.
      • Jum 24.2.1

        8 October 2011 at 12:24 pm

        Pollywog,

        ‘drunken monkey’s throat slitting antics in parliament this week…

        …then get that chump Joyce’

        LOL

        It’s a bit spooky because I have been increasingly seeing this Key and Joyce twosome going through each other’s fur looking for little crawly things to eat.

        I had this same issue with Maurice Williamson and Gerry Brownlee grinning like Cheshire cats, dressed up as Tweedledum and Tweedledee before the last election.

        The creepy crawlies of the rightwing are starting to get to me.

        I remember seeing this picture of Maurice Williamson grinning from ear to ear thinking he had forced New Zealanders into ID cards with microchipping on the back until Labour forced them to rethink that. People were still angry though that National had forced them to get new drivers’ licences before their 25 year cards had expired. Labour knocked down Williamson’s cost of the licences too.

        NAct haven’t changed their spots except to become more rightwing and out to make more money from people while having the nerve to say they weren’t increasing taxes.

        At present, increasing cops to give out road fines is their sneaky tax. Then the GST, etc. etc.
25. Puddleglum 25

    7 October 2011 at 10:43 pm

    I hadn’t noticed this aspect of the Fairfax poll before.

    Go Auckland! (Now, that comes hard as I live in Christchurch). 

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