Open mike 15/02/2024

89 comments on “Open mike 15/02/2024 ”

• Comments are now closed

1. millsy 1

   14 February 2024 at 9:27 pm

   Gender critical feminists are generally socially conservitive and reactionary. Quite frankly, there are views that need to be silenced, if we are to have some form of social progress.

   The overturning of Roe v Wade is one of the end points of allowing free speech.

   [TheStandard: A moderator moved this comment to Open Mike as being off topic or irrelevant in the post it was made in. Be more careful in future.]
   

   [moved from here https://thestandard.org.nz/a-sad-lament-from-the-serial-left/#comment-1989347%5D
   • weka 1.1

     14 February 2024 at 10:12 pm

     Gender critical feminists are generally socially conservitive and reactionary. Quite frankly, there are views that need to be silenced, if we are to have some form of social progress.

     The overturning of Roe v Wade is one of the end points of allowing free speech.

     This is complete nonsense. You are mistaking GCFs for gender critical conservatives. GCFs are left wing/centre left/progressive feminists, often with very long histories of work on women’s rights including on abortion rights. It’s that work (theory, analysis, academic, grassroots) that informs gender critical feminist positions. GCFs often critique conservative gender politics.

     The reason we have a reactionary, conservative backlash against trans people is because the liberal left got sucked into No Debate by Stonewall UK and other progressional lobby groups. Had GCFs and women generally been allowed to speak freely, we would have solid left wing positions on women’s sex based rights to push back on the conservative positions. Instead, trans allies appear to have decided to shut all women up because anything is better than questioning gender identity ideology. Can’t really complain afterwards about the debate then being dominated by people like Kellie Jay Keen or Matt Walsh.

     If people want o understand what gender critical feminism is, read Jane Clare Jones, Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindel, Jo Phoenix, Brighton Sisters, Women’s Place UK, FiLiA

     Here’s the Standard’s category for gender critical feminism posts

     https://thestandard.org.nz/category/government-and-politics/gender-critical-feminism/
     • millsy 1.1.1

       15 February 2024 at 10:07 am

       No, Gender critical feminists have always been right wing. I have spent hours combing through the twitter feeds of various CG feminists, such as Maya Forstater, Helen Joyce, and the Landy sisters (to name a few), and there is a lot of stuff there that the likes of Pat Roberston, Jerry Falwell and the likes would agree with.

       If there was any justice in this world, Matt Walsh would be in a prison cell for holding his posionious views.

       [Please provide some evidence for your claims. You know how this works: your own explanation, supporting quotes and links from sources that are evidence based. Don’t use Pink News.

       The claims are:

       1. Gender critical feminists have always been right wing
       2. that the women you name are GCF
       3. the stuff specifically that each or any of them say that Robertson or Falwell would agree with

       That’s a mod request. Please do this before you comment again elsewhere on TS. – weka]
       
       • weka 1.1.1.1

         15 February 2024 at 10:21 am

         The Landy’s aren’t GCF, they’re reactionary gender critical activists.

         Neither is Forstater a GCF. I would guess her politics are centrist, and she is a feminist in the contemporary centrist understanding of the term. eg

         … she describes herself as being “a mother and a feminist” who thinks “that sexist stereotypes about women and girls, and about men and boys, are damaging for children and adults”

         https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/maya-forstater-transgender-twitter-jk-rowling-b1838151.html

         I don’t consider Joyce to be GCF either, she is a socially liberal centrist conservative. I do think of her as feminist, but again in the centrist contemporary understanding.
         • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.1

           15 February 2024 at 10:40 am

           Weka – please – why does Millsy have to provide all that supportive material for his expressed view, while on this thread, Anker can write,

           "UNiversitites (sic) here and overseas have been captured by the ideologically driven left ie critical race theory and gender ideology. They have had a very significant influence on our institutions for example the public service" without having to provide links, quotes etc?

           I don't get it.
           • Dolomedes III 1.1.1.1.1.1

             15 February 2024 at 1:21 pm

             As I see it, Weka is trying to bring rigour to the left. Millsy often makes wild claims that do a disservice to the left. While I don't agree with everything Anker says, I've never seen her behave like Millsy. And Anker is quite right about our universities. I should know – I work at one. In 2022 our boss encouraged us to enroll in a Critical Theory course – not compulsory at this stage, but we were told it would be "good for your careers".
           • weka 1.1.1.1.1.2

             15 February 2024 at 1:55 pm

             the short answer is that millsy is telling lies about gender critical feminism.

             It's akin to a right winger saying on TS that feminists hate men and always have. Or that Māori radicals want to kill white people. You can get away with that opinion in limited circumstances but once it becomes a pattern, expressed as fact in different ways over time, it's tedious as fuck because it's basically propaganda designed to mislead political debate. As such it has no place on TS. Millsy has form for this on multiple topics and has been moderated for it by more than just me.

             I know millsy is wrong on GCF because I am very well informed on the topic. Re anker's comment. Anyone is free to ask her for evidence if they think she is wrong. I don't think she is wrong (again, I am well informed so I know what she is talking about). I probably disagree with her framing and the extent to which it is happening, and her view could do with some teasing out so that other people know what she is talking about, but that's a different matter from what millsy is doing.
             • Muttonbird …

               17 February 2024 at 9:11 pm

               It's not akin to saying that feminists hate men and always have. Or that Māori radicals want to kill white people.

               Akin to would be saying feminists are too political, and that Māori radicals all vote Labour. That's akin, and debatable.

               By describing millsy's comment as similar to feminists hate men and always have and Māori radicals want to kill white people is the definition of a straw man argument.

               That means projecting and attributing a false, exaggerated argument onto your opponent, then attacking that falsehood.
               • weka …

                 17 February 2024 at 11:12 pm

                 GCF is an actual thing. Millsy was telling lies about what GCF is. I agree that my comparisons were poor, I will try and think of better ones. But the point I was making is that someone could come onto TS and tell lies about specific politics and that would cause a problem. For obvious reasons.

                 If people want to make an argument against gender critical feminist politics, then make the argument. But millsy wasn't doing that. They were misleading what GCF is, and they weren't making any argument apart from throwing out slurs about GCF being the same as rw fundamentalist christian positions.

                 The problem here is that No Debate means people criticising GCF haven't actually had to formulate an argument. They just repeat talking points and thought terminating cliches.

                 Using Pink News as a main reference point rots people's brains.
           • Cricklewood 1.1.1.1.1.3

             15 February 2024 at 7:45 pm

             Probably because Millsy appears to be quite happy to imprision people for what he beleives is 'wrong think'
       • weka 1.1.1.2

         15 February 2024 at 10:23 am

         mod note.
       • weka 1.1.1.3

         15 February 2024 at 10:37 am

         I will also remind you of this, where you agreed to post evidence at the time of making claims,

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-01-2024/#comment-1983905

         in response to this mod note about making unsubstantiated claims,

         https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-01-2024/#comment-1983853

         Please reread that.
       • millsy 1.1.1.4

         15 February 2024 at 1:03 pm

         Never mind. I withdraw the allegations.

         [that’s not good enough. It took time for me to research and then moderate. Why should any of the mods have to keep doing this when we have explained repeatedly over the past few years? 2 month ban.

         When you come back you will be in premod again, and you will have to provide evidence for every claim you make at the time you make it.

         If you don’t you will get a longer ban and eventually a permanent one.

         I strongly encourage you to review the moderations on this, because we have explained what the problem is a number of times. I will post links to them below – weka]
         • weka 1.1.1.4.1

           15 February 2024 at 2:07 pm

           mod note.
         • weka 1.1.1.4.2

           15 February 2024 at 2:17 pm

           I started compiling this list below and I cannot understand why you should be given 15th chance. Ban upgraded to your second 12 month ban, simply to preserve moderator sanity.

           the moderations from the past, in reverse chronological order, I gave up half way through 2022.

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-10-02-2024/#comment-1989245

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-01-2024/#comment-1984201

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-01-2024/#comment-1984202

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09-01-2024/#comment-1983853

           https://thestandard.org.nz/atlas-smirked/#comment-1983696

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-07-01-2023/#comment-1929460

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-29-12-2022/#comment-1928564

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-11-2022/#comment-1920633

           https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-11-2022/#comment-1920681
       • Mike the Lefty 1.1.1.5

         15 February 2024 at 2:17 pm

         "Gender critical feminists have always been right wing.."?

         I don't think many here would agree with you.
         • Visubversa 1.1.1.5.1

           15 February 2024 at 5:19 pm

           All the Gender Critical Feminists I know are pretty much like me. Older – with a history of working for progressive and women's movements and causes for most (if not all) of our working lives. Many are lesbians, and none of them ever vote for any kind of Tory.

           We are GC because we worked for the stuff that the Trans Activists are busy stripping from us. We are not going to hand our rights over easily, and for those of us who are lesbian, we don't care if you call it a "Ladydick", or a "Girldick" or a "Shenis" – we are not interested it in and anything it hangs off.
           • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.5.1.1

             16 February 2024 at 9:02 am

             Am with Visubversa on this. Politicised lesbian women are the staunchest most trustworthy allies to have in progressive struggles has been my experience for many years.

             The new women with cocks and balls–trans women–are unlikely ultimately, to get away with denigrating lesbians. Trans women like any other group are entitled to have lives free of harassment but that does not entitle them to hound other traditionally oppressed people.
             • Muttonbird …

               16 February 2024 at 9:11 am

               There can be some horrific othering and demonising of marginalised people on this forum sometimes. Punching down rather than up. It's not progressive and it's really depressing.
               • gsays …

                 16 February 2024 at 12:28 pm

                 You mean baseless smears against Graham Linehan that you like to throw round and don't back up?

                 Hypocrite much.
                 • Muttonbird …

                   16 February 2024 at 1:15 pm

                   Graham Linehan is a white cis male. Hardly marginalised.

                   He's also a hateful transphobe.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     16 February 2024 at 1:17 pm

                     Sounds yucky.

                     Who would support him?

                     The Sovereign crowd, I suppose.
                   • weka …

                     16 February 2024 at 1:34 pm

                     He's also a hateful transphobe.

                     And you're a hateful misogynist.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     16 February 2024 at 1:45 pm

                     What, no link? I provided a link to support my claim, but you did not :/

                     Graham Lineman sets up fake accounts in order to troll, harass, and doxx people online. That's a big no, no pretty much everywhere in decent society.

                     Visibersa and Tiger's comments on any other group of people (particularly marginalised people) I suspect would attract significant moderator attention…

                     …like I said it’s pretty depressing that sort of stuff is said here.
                   • weka []

                     16 February 2024 at 2:14 pm

                     What, no link? I provided a link to support my claim, but you did not :/

                     I’ve explained this to you before. If you are going to throw out lazy slurs, I will throw out one about you.

                     As for your link, that’s about as useful as me giving this one,

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/search/muttonbird+trans/?search_comments=true&search_posts=true&search_sortby=date

                     People can just go read and see for themselves, right?

                     Visibersa and Tiger’s comments on any other group of people (particularly marginalised people) I suspect would attract significant moderator attention.

                     So make an actual argument, that way you will get respect. But that sentence is just another meaningless slur.

                     In my long experience, and the experience of many gender critical women and men, what you are doing here is very familiar. Point the finger, accuse someone of being transphobic, but almost never explain what that means, nor engage with critical debate about your position.

                     How about you just lay out what your specific concerns are about visubversa and Tiger’s comments and then we can look at them and see if they are justified or have meaning. That’s what we do here, it’s robust debate.
                   • Muttonbird …

                     17 February 2024 at 9:36 pm

                     My concerns about visubversa and Tiger's comments are that they trivialise and delegitimise all transgender people by mocking them as nothing more than sexual fetishists and imposters with cocks and balls.

                     This is a from of prejudice akin to racism which we don't stand for I think. Tiger asked that transgender people should be able to lives free of harassment conditional on none falling foul of the law. What, the, fuck.

                     Your claim below that my defense of transgender people living lives free of prejudice means I'm also defending prison rape is another straw man argument. That whole comment is akin to describing all Maori men as violent in the home because there have been some cases of that.
                   • weka []

                     17 February 2024 at 11:42 pm

                     thanks for clarifying MB, I think that’s useful.

                     My concerns about visubversa and Tiger’s comments are that they trivialise and delegitimise all transgender people by mocking them as nothing more than sexual fetishists and imposters with cocks and balls.

                     I agree TM’s comment is close to the line, if not over it, in terms of talking about TW generally.

                     But visubversa named two groups: Trans Rights Activists (not all trans people), and the trans women and their allies who insist that lesbians should accept trans identified males into their sex lives. Lebsians have every right to be be both extremely fucked off about that as well as politically resistant.

                     This is a from of prejudice akin to racism which we don’t stand for I think. Tiger asked that transgender people should be able to lives free of harassment conditional on none falling foul of the law. What, the, fuck.

                     I don’t think that is what they meant at all. This is what they said,

                     Trans women like any other group are entitled to have lives free of harassment but that does not entitle them to hound other traditionally oppressed people.

                     How that reads to me is general support for the human rights of TW, and those rights don’t extend to telling lesbians they should like girldick.

                     That’s not a form of of prejudice like racism, it’s a political analysis of gender identity ideology. If you want to argue that lesbians should like girldick, please do so. If not, then my question for you is why you can’t see what is happening to lesbians. Or why you don’t think it’s important?
                   • weka []

                     17 February 2024 at 11:53 pm

                     Your claim below that my defense of transgender people living lives free of prejudice means I'm also defending prison rape is another straw man argument. That whole comment is akin to describing all Maori men as violent in the home because there have been some cases of that.

                     If your position is that you believe trans people should be allowed/enabled to live lives free of prejudice, then that’s great. I agree.

                     I don’t believe all trans people are rapists, and you appear to have missed my point. GCFs, GC women, and people in general have been blocked from talking about serious issues around gender identity ideology.

                     Note I am not talking about trans people, or trans women, I am talking about the ideology and the politics that flow from it.

                     That ideology says trans women are literally women and society should enact legislation that allows any man to self identify as a woman at any time and then he must be treated as if he were a woman. That is why we have rapists self-identifying as women, and it’s why it took gender critical feminists and other GC people to force liberals and society to put some blocks on that. Although afaik there are still places in the world where men can self ID into women’s prisons.

                     I’ve seen it argued on TS that this is right, men should be allowed to do this, and women apparently should suck this up. So if you want to put say TM’s comments in the broader TS context, you have to understand that there have been left wing, pro-feminist men on TS who have argued that it’s ok for women to be rape collateral damage in order to support gender identity ideology.

                     What could have been fought for instead was safe prisons for gender non conforming males. But no, that won’t work because there is a subset of trans women for whom affirmation of their self ID has to be enshrined across all society. No matter who it hurts.
               • weka …

                 16 February 2024 at 1:40 pm

                 wealthy white cis men who are AGP are not more oppressed than lesbians in the (neo)liberal hierarchy of oppression. Critiquing gender identity ideology is not punching down.

                 If you wanted more support for TQ+ you probably should have stepped in quite some years ago when women were being subjected to heinous, often sexualised, online violence from the men you are defending here.

                 https://terfisaslur.com/

                 Women sorted that out themselves, and chose their own wellbeing and politics. Funny how many left wing men are now against them. Who is punching down exactly?
                 • Muttonbird …

                   16 February 2024 at 1:50 pm

                   Sorry, who am I defending here apart from transgender people?
                   • weka …

                     16 February 2024 at 2:25 pm

                     These trans identified males:

                     https://terfisaslur.com

                     And the ones here protesting a feminist conference with signs saying things like "suck my dick you transphobic cunts"

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/new-misogyny-same-as-the-old-misogyny/

                     Or this rapist who self-ID into a women's prison,

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isla_Bryson_case

                     Or this trans woman who told a crowd to punch feminists

                     https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-66676737

                     Or this bloke who did punch a GC woman,

                     https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/oct/26/woman-punched-in-brawl-between-transgender-activists-and-radical-feminists

                     And this one, a young man who punched an elderly woman because of her GC politics,

                     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/crime/posie-parker-protest-activist-pleads-guilty-to-punching-elderly-woman-at-heated-auckland-trans-rights-protest/A5RG2HY2TJFLFKAP4OT7JLGIGU/

                     And before you say oh that's just a few rare examples, I could go on all day. As could anyone whose been paying attention and listening to women for the last 6 years.
2. roblogic 2

   15 February 2024 at 7:20 am

   Excellent review of the Superbowl. Bread and Circuses.
   Super Bowl LVIII Review: An American Orgy of Late Stage Capitalism | The Daily Blog

   America can’t provide free education, free health or global leadership, but they sure as hell throw a great Colosseum spectacle.
   • mac1 2.1

     15 February 2024 at 9:01 am

     That man at half time who did the slow strip in the white ensemble sure could move his legs though….. I do wonder how an American journalist would write up a T20 game in India or a Saudi Arabian view of the World Darts Final. I prefer to watch Parliament- lots of circus, not much bread and far less fattening.
   • Muttonbird 2.2

     15 February 2024 at 10:07 am

     But wait there's more. In a poetic script of our times, written in pure American tradition:

     https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/350180345/shots-fired-kansas-city-chiefs-super-bowl-celebration
3. Sanctuary 3

   15 February 2024 at 7:47 am

   Looks like the fiasco of Auckland's transport is about to be inflicted on the Cook Strait ferry service. National ideology is to do nothing, gut the state and create an opaque provider/funder split. Listening to Willis on RNZ just now the obvious plan for Cook Strait is to use Bluebridge and offload/on load rail containers in an inefficient manner. There will be a nightmare where Kiwirail own the rail, a private monopoly carry the freight at crippling costs, and the government spends nothing on infrastructure. Tax cuts now, and to hell with the infrastructure deficit.
   • Muttonbird 3.1

     15 February 2024 at 7:50 am

     As the sun sets on New Zealand, here are those new ferries sailing off into the pockets of amateur landlords:

     Government’s $3 billion landlord tax cut would be retrospective and trigger some refunds – IRD

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/governments-3-billion-landlord-tax-cut-would-be-retrospective-and-trigger-some-refunds-ird/FR2BQCUMDBEDHGZETZZEYJARZI/
     • Kay 3.1.1

       15 February 2024 at 8:36 am

       But that's ok- those refunds mean the landlords won't have to raise their rents, so the workers and beneficiaries who are taking the massive income hit to pay for it, don't need to worry about being priced out of a roof over their heads. So everyone wins, right? /s
   • ianmac 3.2

     15 February 2024 at 9:29 am

     Who has shares in Bluebridge? Willis? Luxon?
   • Ad 3.3

     15 February 2024 at 10:52 am

     +100
     • Patricia Bremner 3.3.1

       15 February 2024 at 8:08 pm

       Well now, why aren't they for the high jump? Seems like a conflict of interest.
   • Bearded Git 3.4

     15 February 2024 at 1:46 pm

     The landlord tax given away by the government would have funded the new ferries and new port facilities with state of art rail freight facilities for generations to come

     I too heard Willis on RNZ this morning ..doesn't give a toss.

     This government is simply crap….but Luxon will be ok with his 7 houses.

     The fact that we will have useless ferries in three years time should be an election issue.
   • gsays 3.5

     15 February 2024 at 6:34 pm

     Like blip's list of Key's lies, this needs to go on the "National are good economic managers" legacy of disappointment.

     Sir Dove Meyer Robinson would be spinning in his grave.
4. Macro 4

   15 February 2024 at 8:38 am

   This country is going to be in an absolute state of destruction in 3 years time after this pack of vandals have had their go. Let's hope that the general public will learn their lesson and never again give this C of C the keys to the purse again.
   • roblogic 4.1

     15 February 2024 at 8:48 am

     We're heading for disaster in several ways.

     A new pandemic wave is about to break.

     Water infrastructure isn't getting fixed.

     Cheaping out on Cook Strait ferries is forgetting the Wahine disaster (and disrespecting the power of Tangaroa)
     • joe90 4.1.1

       15 February 2024 at 11:09 am

       We're heading for disaster in several ways.

       Buckle Mask up.

       Lord Bethell

       @JimBethell

       Gobsmacked by huge 200k upward revision of long-term sickness numbers by @ONS. Overall picture is emphatic. Britain is too sick to work productively. The economic hit will be HARD. @hmtreasury will be gutted. Mandarins! We need to address our underlying health! Urgently!

       1 of 5

       

       […]

       https://obr.uk/frs/fiscal-risks-and-sustainability-july-2023/#chapter-2

       […]

       https://twitter.com/JimBethell/status/1754518991941579038

       ( https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1754518991941579038.html)

       @drseanmullen

       New Study Sheds Light on COVID-19 and Dementia Risk in Older Adults

       A groundbreaking study in preprint at Lancet has revealed a significant link between COVID-19 infection and the increased risk of new-onset dementia (NOD) in older adults (60+ years).

       Here’s what you need to know…

       What Did Researchers Do? – Reviewed 11 studies involving nearly 940,000 people who had COVID-19 and over 6.7 million controls (without COVID-19). – Compared the risk of developing dementia post-COVID across various time frames up to 24 months after infection.

       Key Findings: – COVID-19 survivors are at a higher risk of developing dementia, with a risk ratio (RR) of 1.58, meaning they’re 58% more likely to develop dementia than those without the virus. – This risk spikes to 84% higher than non-COVID individuals at 12 months post-infection. – Women and patients with severe COVID-19 showed significantly higher risks of developing dementia.

       […]

       https://twitter.com/drseanmullen/status/1757429814376398963

       ( https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1757429814376398963.html )
   • Robert Guyton 4.2

     15 February 2024 at 9:09 am

     Could have been a direct quote from Kiwiblog anytime during the previous Government's time. I wonder if that reveals the failings of the whole oppositional, binary system we operate in? They're right, then we're right; they're wrong then we are wrong.

     What irks me most is the language these Government MPs are using; trash-talking the previous Government and its specific ministers seems churlish, mean-spirited, and a word beloved by Kiwibloggers, nasty 🙂
     • weka 4.2.1

       15 February 2024 at 9:31 am

       completely agree. The left wing anger is palpable and justified. But we're no longer in a world where that oppositional binary system works (before it worked albeit dysfunctionally). We're still using that system, but the game has completely changed and we haven't caught up yet.

       How to change that? Or how to adapt to the new dynamics so that we have agency towards all of life?

       (and this is where we're going to sorely miss the likes of James Shaw).
       • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1

         15 February 2024 at 10:17 am

         But James' success was short-lived; largely trashed by the incoming orcs?
         • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1.1

           15 February 2024 at 10:21 am

           Sorry, "arsonists"

           https://norightturn.blogspot.com/2024/02/climate-change-arsonists.html
         • weka 4.2.1.1.2

           15 February 2024 at 10:31 am

           this is another serious problem with our oppositional binary system, how to Tory proof legislation and policy. But it works the other way too, if we tory-proof from our side, they can socialist-proof from theirs.

           Shaw walked a different path from that. The value is threefold (at least).

           1. he demonstrated a different way of doing things
           2. he passed legislation that had support from across the house
           3. as a Minister he was able to change culture within government departments to be conscious of the importance of climate/eco crisis.

           To step out of the oppositional binary for a moment, how about we list Shaw's achievements that will survive this government, wholly or in part?

           One less obvious one is that all the people in government departments who are on board with climate and transition thanks to having had two terms of a Green Climate Minister, they're not going to suddenly disappear.

           Afaik the the zero carbon act will survive.
           • weka 4.2.1.1.2.1

             15 February 2024 at 10:32 am

             some more here

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/environment/climate-news/133356580/the-unexpected-climate-plans-of-the-new-government
           • Robert Guyton 4.2.1.1.2.2

             15 February 2024 at 10:46 am

             He was also constantly frustrated by the lack of depth and speed of progress and I have no doubt he's appalled by the tweaks from this Government; clean car discount etc.

             All progressive actions are vulnerable to regressive governance.

             What's the solution to that?
             • weka …

               15 February 2024 at 11:08 am

               that's the million trees question.

               A few starting thoughts.

               I still believe strongly that providing narratives of how things can work out is imperative.

               Macro implied above that we need to replace the government in 3 years time. What are the things that we can do between now and then that increase the chances of a change of govt in 2026? At the moment we are understandably focused on anger and calling out NACTF. This is important too (micky's posts and many of the comments on TS are great at this).

               In addition, we need to be talking about how to win next time. That gives us 2024 and 2025 to organise. Then 2026 being the election campaign itself (I bet you have some thoughts on political campaigning!)

               That's a short term, working with the system we've got option. I might see if I can do a post on that but have been wanting TS lefties to get the initial anger out of their system a bit.

               Alongside and overlapping that is what Swarbrick is talking about, movement building at the community level. The left have been banging on about that for a long time, so I'm curious to see what CS comes up with.

               I said yesterday that the details on that are probably going to be available to members as the Greens work on that over the next year. So anyone who hasn't and is inclined, might want to join the party now and get involved at the local level.

               That is both short, medium and long term mahi. Getting our heads around the generational nature of change is probably a fairly big challenge.

               Back to the how things work out. What would a new government in 2026 look like? Where will be at with climate/ecology? Can we develop a two pathways approach (parliament and community/movement)? What would that look like when we win in 2026?
               • Robert Guyton …

                 15 February 2024 at 11:21 am

                 I feel we could co-create a wonderful system, for sure.

                 But if the "others" stick to their game plan, they'll smash everything again. Community /movements would have to be free from the need for Government assistance, and also wary that the threat they will represent, will be met by unkind Government actions.
                 • weka …

                   15 February 2024 at 12:17 pm

                   Let's start with the low hanging fruit then.

                   I agree that government funding is problematic. In the age of the internet, networking, and crowd funding, this is less of a problem now than it used to be.

                   In CS' electorate campaign, the workers were free from government crackdown, and I assume used a mix of fundraising and GP monies (some of which come from the government??).

                   I assume this is true for the three other electorates the Greens did well in.

                   We can help build on that by getting involved.
               • Grey Area …

                 15 February 2024 at 1:02 pm

                 Great questions Weka and ones I've been waiting for more people to ask. We can all see the horror show unfolding in front us but what do we do about it? I hear your point about letting the anger disappate a bit but I feel it's going to continue as the wreckers continue their work.

                 Perhaps one answer is to harness it. I'm on the verge of re-joining the Greens
                 • weka …

                   15 February 2024 at 3:19 pm

                   nice one. It does seem such a simple act to join the Greens, or Te Pati Māori, whichever is the best fit.

                   Agree about the anger. I'm a fan of using anger to act. Is that a skill that can be learned?
                 • gsays …

                   16 February 2024 at 12:37 pm

                   While joining The Greens is a positive step, any meaningful solution is to be found at grass/flax roots level.

                   No party can implement the changes needed and get voted in.

                   To move to a less carbon dense lifestyle is the answer to almost all serious issues we face- climate, economic, social, inequality, ecosystem collapse/extinctions.

                   Transition Towns offer a great model, tweaked to your own circumstance/location.

                   Sharing will be at the heart of our future.
                   When we move, the pollies have no option but to follow.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     16 February 2024 at 1:19 pm

                     They'll smash the grass-roots, just as they smashed forests.
                   • weka []

                     16 February 2024 at 1:45 pm

                     that’s dark.
                   • gsays []

                     16 February 2024 at 2:35 pm

                     Who's "they”?
           • alwyn 4.2.1.1.2.3

             15 February 2024 at 12:44 pm

             "how to Tory proof legislation and policy"

             Sigh. I wish we could find a way to "Tory proof" the WCC. Can we please have our infrastructure fixed rather then provide huge subsidies to US theatre owners?

             https://www.thepost.co.nz/nz-news/350085030/council-planning-buy-reading-cinema-land-offset-earthquake-strengthening-cost

             When this deal became public knowledge the Mayor, Tory by name, then started a witch hunt against the Councillors who opposed the scheme.

             https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/local-government/133216223/accused-wellington-councillors-brand-leak-review-political-and-biased-attack
             • weka …

               15 February 2024 at 3:24 pm

               are you in favour of all commercially sensitive transactions being done publicly?
               • alwyn …

                 15 February 2024 at 5:23 pm

                 In general my opinion is this.

                 If a transaction is between private individuals or organisations I see no reason for them not to be confidential.

                 When, on the other hand, one side of the transaction is a Governmental organisation, such as the central Government or a local body which is financed by the taxpayer or the ratepayer I don't see that there is any transaction that should be hidden.

                 I believe that the Governmental group should always offer the same deal to anyone. The only way to ensure that that happens is to make them known. I certainly don't want the Wellington Council giving special rates to their mates at my, the ratepayer's, expense.

                 If you, as a private individual chose to charge one of your friends less for work you do for them, and it is you own money that is providing the discount, why should it be anything to do with me?
                 • weka …

                   15 February 2024 at 5:33 pm

                   the commercially sensitive transaction in this case was the WCC buying a piece of land. Where it being public might increase the amount the WCC had to pay.

                   I certainly don't want the Wellington Council giving special rates to their mates at my, the ratepayer's, expense.

                   I was thinking about contract bidding being done privately. Aren't there rules in place for that kind of thing to prevent mates rates?
                   • alwyn …

                     15 February 2024 at 6:16 pm

                     The people who owned the cinemas were the ones who owned the land they were sitting on. They were selling it to the Council but were going to keep on running the cinemas.

                     As the sellers they obviously knew how much they were going to be paid.

                     I can see no way that the Council could have to pay more money if the public knew how much the price was going to be.
                 • gsays …

                   15 February 2024 at 6:15 pm

                   Just curious and I can't let it go, where do you sit in regards to Speaker Brownlee's secrecy in relation to the identity of the 4 swipe card holders?

                   It would be safe to assume there is a commercial imperative tied up in it all.
                   • alwyn …

                     15 February 2024 at 6:29 pm

                     I have no idea what this is about and I therefore have no way of making a reasoned comment.
                   • gsays …

                     15 February 2024 at 6:56 pm

                     Gosh, I'm surprised it passed under yr radar.

                     https://thestandard.org.nz/who-are-the-four-lobbyists-with-parliamentary-swipe-cards/

                     Don't have to know details to have an opinion as to its appropriateness.
           • Bearded Git 4.2.1.1.2.4

             15 February 2024 at 1:57 pm

             If Winston had any gumption he would vote against the ferry policy. I don't think it is popular with the NZ people.

             That is how MMP is supposed to work.
           • roblogic 4.2.1.1.2.5

             15 February 2024 at 3:31 pm

             'how to Tory proof legislation and policy.'

             Tory-proofing is difficult when they operate in bad faith and rely on disinformation campaigns against progressive reforms.

             Jacinda's frustrating incrementalism and consensus-building was an attempt to embed legislation for the long term. The miniscule carbon prices attached to farming were hammered out over years of negotiations in good faith. But Groundswell threw that away and decided to drive tractors up and down the country at the horror of having to pay for a tiny bit of their emissions.

             Co-governance was a principle established by the previous National government and should be uncontroversial by now, but the munters and shit-stirrers found it a useful wedge for their racist conspiracy theories.

             I still have a bit of faith that most Kiwis don't particularly like National or Luxon, but the resentment and anger at Jacinda and lockdowns is still palpable out there. She was wise to fall on her sword, but the hostile sentiment still remains. Hopefully people will wake up soon when they see the Nats trying to sell off half the country again. Before it's too late.
   • Anne 4.3

     15 February 2024 at 9:30 am

     The general public never learn. They make the same mistakes time and again. Everywhere.
5. Robert Guyton 5

   15 February 2024 at 8:57 am

   "Prime Minister Christopher Luxon says farmers have been treated ‘’like villains’’ for the last six years, and his Government was working hard to remove red tape and regulations that were slowing down the economy."

   Groundswell has the Government's ear.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/nz-news/350174744/luxon-farmers-have-been-treated-villains
   • Adrian 5.1

     15 February 2024 at 9:53 am

     He hasn't got a clue or is the worst served PM by advisors in history. He turned up at a well known Marlborough wine company in the campaign sprouting the same target of doubling production only to be rebuked by the owner who pointed out that that was impossible because most of the suitable land was already in grapes and the industry's goal was quality not quantity. He has no idea that doubling production is almost impossible in most areas of primary production, certainly in sheep, probably also in beef and almost all other sectors as the constraints are not only local but mostly external with protected markets and over supply. The man is a muppet who has spent most of his working life in the US and is seriously ill-informed personally and professionly.
     • Muttonbird 5.1.1

       15 February 2024 at 10:03 am

       Can only assume he means further dairy intensification (double the intensification by definition) with all the destructiveness that brings upon the environment.

       Trading off the New Zealand brand while simultaneously destroying that brand. Vulture capitalist, anyone?
       • Francesca 5.1.1.1

         15 February 2024 at 11:22 am

         They seem to be blithely unaware (or just callous) that climate catastrophies will totally fuck up the supply chain that underpins global free markets, and environmental collapse will put a stop to our food producing capacities

         We need to become self sufficient in all things as soon as possible, which means subsidies for farmers to produce for the domestic market, (as well as encouraging those who can to have home gardens).And regenerative agriculture! Something Damien O'Connor was pushing for in our area.

         We produce milk powder that ends up as a filler in all manner of unhealthy foodstuffs, nothing to be proud of, while ruining one of the most essential elements to life…our water.

         And that leaked Cabinet paper!

         https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/02/leaked-cabinet-paper-reveals-government-considering-allowing-potential-influx-of-overseas-landlords.html

         More leaks please

         I wonder how many are now privately experiencing voter remorse?
     • Robert Guyton 5.1.2

       15 February 2024 at 10:04 am

       But the Groundswellers cheered themselves silly!
     • tc 5.1.3

       15 February 2024 at 11:15 am

       Puppet rather than muppet as this is just another role where he works to direction, has the rhetoric provided and gets rewarded based on his ability to get the 'job' done.

       That 'job' as we're starting to see is an ideologically driven destruction. Haters and wreckers.
       • Robert Guyton 5.1.3.1

         15 February 2024 at 11:22 am

         "Puppet rather than muppet "

         Agreed.
         I thought that too, about his Waitangi Day speech.
     • Drowsy M. Kram 5.1.4

       15 February 2024 at 1:31 pm

       He [Luxon] turned up at a well known Marlborough wine company in the campaign sprouting the same target of doubling production…

       He has no idea that doubling production is almost impossible in most areas of primary production…

       Luxon may have no idea, but does he care? Spierings brought Fonterra to its knees.

       Fonterra boss outlines vision for dairy giant [30 March 2012]
       "We call it the three Vs – volume, value and velocity."

       Theo Spierings' Fonterra payout slammed [16 August 2019]
       This was revealed as the dairy co-operative forecasts a loss of up to $675 million, and has announced it will not be paying a dividend this financial year.

       No one from Fonterra would be interviewed about Mr Spierings' payout, but a Fonterra statement said he was given the $4.6m when he left the co-op last August.

       It said the payment covered the final part of a deferred bonus dating back to 2017 and Mr Spierings' final remuneration for this year including his base salary, superannuation, and holiday pay.

       Mr Spierings' annual annual salary was $2.5m a year but he earned over $8m for each of the last two years with bonuses.
   • mac1 5.2

     15 February 2024 at 11:23 am

     Did Luxon and Stuff mean 'villeins' and not 'villains'? Defined as "(in medieval England) villeins were feudal tenants entirely subject to a lord or manor to whom they paid dues and services in return for land."
   • Ad 5.3

     15 February 2024 at 12:10 pm

     The previous head of Federated Farmers is now a Minister.

     The previous GM Corporate Relations for Fonterra is now our Minister of Finance.

     There's more of course if people just want to go through the CV's.
   • joe90 5.4

     15 February 2024 at 12:27 pm

     Big tRumpy vibe….

     

     Luxon got out of the tractor cab sporting a wide smile.

     “That was great fun — the highlight of my day,” Luxon said.

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/southern-field-days-christopher-luxon-attends-first-day-as-farmers-flock-to-event/E45YGGU5WJCDLFRD6FV7V62C2Q/
6. joe90 6

   15 February 2024 at 1:02 pm

   Soylent pink. Its here…

   

   Bowls of decidedly pink-tinged rice are about to feature on sustainable food menus, according to researchers who created rice grains with beef and cow fat cells grown inside them.

   Scientists made the experimental food by covering traditional rice grains in fish gelatin and seeding them with skeletal muscle and fat stem cells which were then grown in the laboratory.

   After culturing the muscle, fat and gelatin-smothered rice for nine to 11 days, the grains contained meat and fat throughout, resulting in an end product the researchers believe could become a nutritious and flavourful food.

   Prof Jinkee Hong, who led the work at Yonsei University in South Korea, cooked and tasted the beef-cultured rice, which he hopes will be a more affordable source of protein than traditional beef, with a much smaller carbon footprint.

   https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2024/feb/14/lab-grown-beef-rice-could-offer-more-sustainable-protein-source-say-creators
   • weka 6.1

     15 February 2024 at 1:19 pm

     'believe could' is doing some heavy lifting there.
   • Sanctuary 6.2

     15 February 2024 at 2:31 pm

     BUT PINK RICE IS PEOPLE!
7. SPC 7

   15 February 2024 at 4:21 pm

   This should help Biden out.

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2024/02/christopher-luxon-joins-anthony-albanese-justin-trudeau-in-major-statement-on-israel-gaza.html
   • Grey Area 7.1

     15 February 2024 at 8:55 pm

     So these three have "grave concern about "indications that Israel is planning a ground offensive" into the southern Gazan city of Rafah.""

     Well whoop de doo. No call for a ceasefire. Just continuing to enable genocide.

     Luxon just wanting to look prime ministerial while the human toll mounts.

     Despicable.
8. adam 8

   15 February 2024 at 5:03 pm

   So the prediction that this lot would wreak the economy for us all by Feb is coming true, every day these muppets are doing more bat shit ideological shitfuckary with economy than ann randy on steroids.

   In fact it's a bloody roid rage event. How much of a fetishist wet dream can this lot run with? We can only guess that purity is the only thing holden them together.

   My favourite today –

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/509263/auckland-train-cancellations-kiwirail-says-foundations-on-some-tracks-not-strong-enough

   How many times have we got to have this shitfucker bugger with people lives till they work out ideological free markets and business does it best – is a sick bloody joke?

• Comments are now closed

• Log in
• Donate
• Contribute post

• Articles RSS