A sad lament from the serial left

103 comments on “A sad lament from the serial left ”

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1. Mike the Lefty 1

   14 February 2024 at 5:26 am

   One sad sight to see is ageing leftish historians/writers move increasingly to the right as they progress in life.

   Chris Trotter is one shining example.

   Wrote some very good material on the development of left wing and trade union movements in New Zealand and is an interesting man to talk to.

   But so was Michael Bassett, at one time, and now he's gone even further and fully promotes ACT.
   • Tiger Mountain 1.1

     14 February 2024 at 9:06 am

     It is sad. Former lefties can be ego driven as much as other political stripes, and enjoy the attention and income from being a long distance columnist/pundit. Political switchers were characterised years ago as “Elephant Riders”–not minding if it is an Indian, African or Asian breed they survey the world and audience from.

     Back in the 80s Mr Trotter started writing for NZ National Business Review which in pre digital times was quite a big deal. He was castigated by some of us lefties, but senior unionists like Ken Douglas said no, no, it is “positive engagement” (with the class enemy). History shows where tripartite fantasies led the NZCTU when the union busting 1991 Employment Contracts Act was enacted.

     Chris started out in rural Southland as his blog title alludes to, became a student activist, union employee, pundit to all and sundry, and via the rise of the internet appears to have ultimately returned to the reactionary world view of Southland, particularly on matters Māori.
     • aj 1.1.1

       14 February 2024 at 12:36 pm

       Chris started out in rural Southland as his blog title alludes to

       North Otago. Just as rural and conservative.

       It takes its name from Bowalley Road, which runs past the North Otago farm where he spent the first nine years of his life.

       https://duckduckgo.com/?q=bowalley+road&ia=web
       • DS 1.1.1.1

         14 February 2024 at 6:08 pm

         North Otago is not as conservative as Rural Southland. Rural Southland is hard-right conservative. North Otago, assuming you include Oamaru, is actually pretty close to a national bellwether. Taking out Oamaru still leaves North Otago as moderately blue – a very different beast from the ultraviolet you see in Rural Southland.

         Moreover, the variety of conservatism you see in Rural Southland is not obsessed with Maori. These people obsess about climate change conspiracies, perceived wokery, and vaccines. But not really Maori. That sort of thing is a North Island obsession, particularly Auckland.

         In fact, what you're actually seeing with Trotter is someone who has basically been assimilated into the views of Auckland Pakeha conservatism. Auckland is an incredibly conservative place.
         • Tiger Mountain 1.1.1.1.1

           15 February 2024 at 8:23 am

           Some geographical pedantry has been provoked by my North Island centric perspective, have been to the South Island only once on an extended trip in a personal capacity a long ways back–when the Hermitage was still old school, and numerous times for fly in and out meetings, and regard anywhere down from Christchurch as “Southland”. But I take your point, I live in the Far North (North from Kaeo), and there are definitely different zones up here as well–mid North, Hokianga etc.

           A friend of mine on a biking road trip went to a motorcycle museum in Invercargill last week, and they let her in, the Deep South has joined the 21st century! but she was riding a large two wheeler and wearing leather.

           But never mind all that, Mr Trotter will likely be enjoying this attention.
     • Patricia Bremner 1.1.2

       15 February 2024 at 10:30 am

       My husband briefly worked for the Business Review in Rotorua, but left as he said to me "I can not agree with their Editorial line" They were always hard right.

       The Left has failed to use technology because as you say Mike.. "No money."

       What are the "Sores of the Right" which we can pick, and what key ideas will win us the next election?

       What do we stand for? Well we need to rekindle hope, support the idea of family, and the right to income and participation in community.imo

       Ideas are powerful, and the right market their ideas very well.

       To counter the right's marketing our marketing has to be aimed at those four areas Hope, Family, Income, and resilient Communities which will have basic needs met.

       The problems of Climate Change, Infrastructure, Poor Legislation, Human frailty will be better dealt with if people are not scrabbling to have some of the basics of life.

       Stronger together whatever the weather.imo
2. Rodel 2

   14 February 2024 at 7:55 am

   Trotter was like Trump. See the word 'Trotter' or 'Trump' and you have to read to see what it says. Sadly for me that's no longer the case with Chris Trotter. 'Trump' still sparks my interest.
3. Darien Fenton 3

   14 February 2024 at 8:19 am

   I agree Chris Trotter is a good writer. He can also do a good rendition of solidarity songs. But I admit I am completely bewildered by the turn he has taken. Maybe it was teaming up with the Free Speech “Union” in good company like Jordan Williams, Stephen Franks and Ani O’Brien (mind you, so did Matt McCarten) or voting for NZ First.
   • tc 3.1

     14 February 2024 at 8:53 am

     Everyone has a price and bills to pay. Edwards, Pagani etc

     The regular granny soapbox is there for a reason. Another useful tool.
   • Tiger Mountain 3.2

     14 February 2024 at 9:12 am

     The company one keeps remains important. The right can be persuasive and seductive with their whispers, and very real air fares, gratis gadgets, accomodation, air conditioned spaces and access to people.

     The Atlas Network Review 2008 document showed people from some of the poorest countries in the world attending, presumably sent back home to support an agenda like David Seymour’s.
   • Anker 3.3

     14 February 2024 at 8:21 pm

     I understand you are bewildered Darien. But many many of us have gone from being good lefties to favouring other parties. Rather than shouting us down (not you as such) or coming up with the Atlas network to account for the left losing the election, it could be an idea to listen to likes of Chris and people like myself who have changed sides.

     On the Standard, its not uncommon for me to receive petty sarcaism and sneering. It does nothing to win me back to the left (although no one needs to do that as such). I don't see anyone on the left geniunely trying to understand where you went wrong that after an outstanding result in 2020 you lost half your votes.

     I don't think Chris T is too far off the mark asking is there much difference from the oil companies and people buying petrol for their cars. One of the biggest examples of Green hypocracy is the Wellington Mayor who within a year took two overseas trips, both of whiich did nothing to advance solutions to the cities major problems.

     From Chris Ts article, it sounds like the Atlas foundation has been around for a number of decades. And yet we have had more than a few Labour governments during their existence.
     • Robert Guyton 3.3.1

       15 February 2024 at 9:34 am

       "I don't think Chris T is too far off the mark asking is there much difference from the oil companies and people buying petrol for their cars."

       You are profoundly wrong about that and so is Trotter. David Seymour though, would be proud of you!

       As for the argument that Greens especially should not travel by car, boat, train or plane; piffle! You seek to disable those you don't support, using fatuous logic.
       • Corokia 3.3.1.1

         15 February 2024 at 7:07 pm

         It's not a perfect analogy, but I think the oil companies are like the drug pusher and we are the fossil fuel addicts, so Chris Trotter is wrong and there is a very big difference.

         We need help to kick our fossil fuel habit. Help like good public transport, safe cycleways, subsidies for electric cars etc
         • Robert Guyton 3.3.1.1.1

           15 February 2024 at 7:44 pm

           Yes, addiction and naked greed are 2 different things, Corokia. Haven't seen comments from you here for a while and it's great to see those again 🙂
         • Anker 3.3.1.1.2

           16 February 2024 at 10:24 pm

           Fossil fuels aren't a habit as such. In the modern world they have become a necessity. If petrol dried up tomorrow and no one could fill their tank with gas what would life be like? How would emergency services operate? How would people get to work, to see family members, to get to the supermarket to buy food for their families?

           I really think for NZ its down to adaptation
           • weka 3.3.1.1.2.1

             17 February 2024 at 10:00 am

             adaptation without mitigation (dropping emissions fast) is a death sentence for a really large number of human. Please read some climate scientists on this, it's very clear. If we don't drop GHGs there will be no car driving, nor first world health care systems, and for many people no eating and drinking either.

             Industrial society cannot survive runaway climate change.

             We see the beginnings of this with the climate events we are already having. Two big fires in the Port Hills in the past decade. It takes 30 years to grow a new tree. Wild fires in NZ have increased exponentially.

             Or look at roading, how long do you think NZ can afford to keep fixing roads then we start getting major floods/cyclones every few years? How can we afford to replace all our railway lines to upgrade them to handle increased temperatures?

             The good news is that transition to a post-carbon economy can be both mitigation and adaptation, because the choices are being done sustainably. We have the technical capacity to powerdown and transition, the problem is political will.

             Adaptation outside of a transition context is rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. I suspect many of the people who promote mitigation only are old enough to think runaway climate change won't affect them. It looks very different for the people that still have 50 years ahead of them.
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 February 2024 at 12:27 pm

               I think ACT have ditched any ambition to mitigate.

               It doesn't fit with their self-centred word view.
             • Anker …

               17 February 2024 at 5:06 pm

               I have read quite a bit about climate change although I don't have a science background but I do accept it is man made.

               If NZ was carbon zero tomorrow it would make no difference at all. Everyone knows that. It is down to the big emitters particularly India and China. I am not saying that we shouldn't do anything, but we can afford to pause, get the country ready for increased weather events and work out sensible steps to reduce emissions. Many of the things that have been done eg in Welllington, like losing inner city parking have likely back fired i.e families who want to shop now take their cars to Porirua or Hutt City where they can be guaranteed of parking in the big shopping malls. Meanwhile Wellington CC has lost $5 million dollars of parking revenue.

               I know for us if we want to go to a restaurant down town we don't now. We drive out to the suburbs as parking is unbelievably expensive in Wellington
               • weka …

                 17 February 2024 at 5:53 pm

                 I have read quite a bit about climate change although I don't have a science background but I do accept it is man made.

                 that's good, however I was suggesting reading climate scientists who are explaining why mitigation is crucial.

                 If NZ was carbon zero tomorrow it would make no difference at all. Everyone knows that. It is down to the big emitters particularly India and China.

                 This is simply not true, and anyone who understands what the climate and ecology crises are disagrees with you. All the small emitters like NZ add up to something like 1/4 of global emissions. If the the big emitters like India and China went carbon zero tomorrow and the rest of us didn't, we would still have catastrophic climate change. We need everyone to change as much as possible

                 Further, if many countries say 'we're not going to change' then other countries will follow suit including places like the US. That way lies death.

                 I am not saying that we shouldn't do anything, but we can afford to pause, get the country ready for increased weather events and work out sensible steps to reduce emissions.

                 No, we can't afford to pause. Global emissions are already in the dangerous zone and the window for averting catastrophe is closing fast. And, as I said, there is no adaptation to runaway climate change. What you are proposing is wasting time/energy/money chasing a falsity that is predicated on letting many people suffer and die within the lifetime of people currently living.

                 What you are arguing is a form of climate denial. It's a refusal to understand just how serious the situation is. Further, the arguments you are making are exactly the arguments coming from hard core climate deniers. The narrative shifted from 'it's not real' to 'humans didn't do it' to 'we aren't responsible'.

                 Many of the things that have been done eg in Welllington, like losing inner city parking have likely back fired i.e families who want to shop now take their cars to Porirua or Hutt City where they can be guaranteed of parking in the big shopping malls. Meanwhile Wellington CC has lost $5 million dollars of parking revenue.

                 I know for us if we want to go to a restaurant down town we don't now. We drive out to the suburbs as parking is unbelievably expensive in Wellington

                 I don't know Wellington, so I can't comment on that. But it looks similar to the places I do know where transition is imperfect, inadequate, and often badly compromised because too many people in positions of power refuse to take action.

                 Lessening cars in the inner city has to sit alongside other things like public transport, and not needing to travel in the first place: groceries, restaurants, a chemist and so on in everyone's neighbourhoods.
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   17 February 2024 at 5:58 pm

                   Your comments on climate change are spot on, weka.

                   Climate change deniers have found a friend in David Seymour, Winston Peters/Shane Jones and Luxon; they needed someone to tell them that "it's a scam", and these "leaders" are satisfying that desire.
                   • weka …

                     17 February 2024 at 10:59 pm

                     thanks Robert. It's pretty sad state of affairs that people have jumped on adaptation to avoid mitigation and our obligations. Expected of ACT, but not so much other people.
               • Anne …

                 17 February 2024 at 7:00 pm

                 I have read quite a bit about climate change although I don't have a science background but I do accept it is man made.

                 Well, accepting it is man made is one point in your favour. However, I would be interested to know where you are getting your info. from because it doesn't sound like it is coming from internationally acclaimed scientists of which NZ has contributed several of them.

                 Suggest you read weka's contribution at 5:53pm carefully because it is an excellent summary of why NZ has to contribute on an equal footing with all other countries big and small.
               • weka …

                 18 February 2024 at 12:04 am

                 this is a useful, not too long, easy to understand explainer about why small emitters matter. It's from data scientist Hannah Ritchie.

                 https://www.sustainabilitybynumbers.com/p/small-emitters
                 • Anker …

                   26 February 2024 at 9:46 am

                   Thanks Weka. Will read

                   https://www.hoover.org/research/keeping-your-cool-climate-debate-bjorn-lomborg

                   I think Bjorn-lomborg is very interesting about climate change. I agree with him that we are throwing money at solutions that have huge downside. I like Bjorn-lomborg approach.
                   • weka …

                     26 February 2024 at 12:17 pm

                     Lomborg is one of the new breed of climate deniers. He minimises the risk and argues adaptation at the expense of mitigation. His position is against what climate science says, and he's been criticised for his work by scientists. His background is in political science, he's not a scientist.

                     The danger in his position is that it encourages BAU. It is BAU that is driving the climate crisis and soon we will all be talking about climate collapse (in your and my life times, but we might be old enough to not be terribly affected given we live in NZ).

                     There's nothing wrong with reading and understanding his position and I can see why people might like it. But consider if he is wrong and society did what he suggests? That's basically locking the whole planet into climate collapse, including collapse of civilisation. Pretty big downside.
                 • Anker …

                   29 February 2024 at 1:32 pm

                   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2024/02/kiwi-and-chinese-scientists-achieve-breakthrough-system-to-convert-carbon-dioxide-into-fuel.html

                   I think this is the sort of thing Bjorn-Lomberg means

                   It is mis-leading to say the BL is a climate denier. He believes that man made climate change is happening as I do. But he disagrees with many of the steps and the amount of money being spent to avert increasing temperatures. I think he has got more than a point
                   • weka …

                     29 February 2024 at 4:18 pm

                     Climate denial comes in a number of forms, from outright denial of its existence, to saying it's happening but humans didn't created it, to saying humans did create it but its not that bad. Lomberg falls into the latter category. He is working to block the kind of actions we need to avert disaster. You might not like those actions, but the only way to justify blocking them is to deny the reality of the crisis. Which he does.

                     Adaptation without (or with limited) mitigation is inherently a denialist position. It comes from a denial of the seriousness of the crisis. It's a death sentence.

                     The tech you link to is pie in the sky. It's yet another scheme that is being used to pretend we can avoid catastrophe because a tech we haven't invented yet or tested or adopted on any kind of useful scale is going to save us. There have been many such schemes in the past 20 years, where are they now?

                     Notice the use of the words hope, eventually, possibility, could be. That's because the idea is in its infancy.

                     Also note this sentence,

                     … the biggest challenge will be how to effectively capture CO2…

                     they haven't even solved that problem.

                     I haven't looked at the tech closely to see how useful it is for humans otherwise, so I don't have an opinion on that. But absent a plan and timeline that says it can take mass amounts of CO2 out of the atmosphere and be up and running this decade, it's at best a distraction, at worst a tool being used to block transition to a post-carbon economy by dropping GHGs fast. Again, death sentence stuff.
                   • Robert Guyton …

                     29 February 2024 at 5:40 pm

                     Anker voted ACT, ipso facto, denies climate change, but couches it in weasel words and smeared logic, imo.
           • Corokia 3.3.1.1.2.2

             17 February 2024 at 10:02 am

             Transportation is a necessity in our modern world, fossil fuels just happen to be the means by which most of that has been powered.

             Oil companies funding politics is likely to obstruct the essential changes that we need to make to power our society by methods that don't release greenhouse gases.
       • Anker 3.3.1.2

         16 February 2024 at 10:12 pm

         I certainly have never said Greens shouldn't travel by car, boat, train or plane.

         But imo it is hypocritical for the likes of Tory Whanau, a Green Mayor who is part of a council who has imposed many unwanted Green policies on its rate payers, e.g very expensive cycleways then to turn around and within a year take take two overseas trips which were of no direct benefit to Wellingtonians. If you are going to impose a Green agenda on ratepayers, you better be sure that you are squeky clean on your own use of fossil fuels. That's how I see it anyway
         • Robert Guyton 3.3.1.2.1

           17 February 2024 at 8:41 am

           Given you have turned-coat: "people like myself who have changed sides" and now proclaim from an Actoid position, your anti-Green reckons are empty of value and of no interest to a Green-supporter like me, who isn't a turncoat.
         • weka 3.3.1.2.2

           17 February 2024 at 9:47 am

           what were the two trips for?
           • Anker 3.3.1.2.2.1

             17 February 2024 at 4:59 pm

             New York because she got picked for some special training course and Asia to drum up business and students for Wellington. The later is for the universities and the Ministry of Trade etc to take care of. Council had far more pressing issues (water pipes) and to date no benefits have been reported from the trip that involved 4 or 5 officials.

             Meanwhile as Mayor she missed a meeting with other Mayors on Water, she took herself off the water committee last year (can't be that important) she went out to dinner on the ratepayers with the CEO and two high flyers from the US who own Reading cinema at the tune of $1400. She spent over $50,000 on a lawyer to try and determind who on the council leaked some information to the media (what a surprize nothing was found) and there is some secretive deal with Reading cinema owners that involves ratepayers mo ney. Didn't have the information available on the plan for water when he requested it early this year. So no plan? Thank god for Simeon Brown requesting acccountability from the Wellington Mayors otherwise some of them would still be in denial about the plight of our water pipes.

             Just as I am typing this provisional result for new WCC councilor shows that the candidate opposing the Green candidate has won. Wellingtonians have more than had enought
             • Robert Guyton …

               17 February 2024 at 5:26 pm

               Got it in for Tori, I see!
               • Anker …

                 24 February 2024 at 12:10 pm

                 Like many Wellingtonians I am p…ed off with the left on the council who have wasted Wellingtonian's rates on "nice to have" projects rather than dealing with the most basic need, fix the pipes.

                 I might seem down on Tory. She was touted as this great communicator who would bring the council together. She campaigned on this being her strength. She has only further divided the council and it is clear to many Wellingtonians that she is completely and utterly out of her depth. The Courtney Place Reading cinema deal is the latest unfolding disaster that we rate payers are having to put up with
                 • Robert Guyton …

                   24 February 2024 at 4:14 pm

                   "I might seem down on Tory"

                   Yes.
     • Mikey 3.3.2

       15 February 2024 at 8:13 pm

       So Trotter doesn't understand the difference between buying and being bought? That explains a lot.
   • SPC 3.4

     14 February 2024 at 8:35 pm

     It is the I am a white man/woman of western civilisation nativism identity populism against progressive minority causes.

     His generation own property and don’t want to pay property taxes – thus resistance to CGT/wealth tax/estate tax. The sensitivity to rising impost of rates is of a design to council asset sell off – currently the focus is water.

     Then resistance to paying support for younger working class families (2005 may have been a line in the sand that is ebbing away).

     In the UK – Brexit vote and the USA, the southern border manifestations. In Oz the failure of the indigenous voice campaign and here the settler Treaty revisionism.

     The 1950’s era child of a white order of society nostalgia of the boomers, when combined with insecurity about aging and coming to the fate of their now dead parents … (such a white religious heritage and culture tradition).

     It is as if staying alive is becoming associated with sustaining an order of rule their middle class selves are comfortable with. Such is the conservative political base.

     Those sustained by FDR’s regime or the Labour government 1935-49 were otherwise they supported the continuance of the great society dream.
   • Bearded Git 3.5

     14 February 2024 at 8:52 pm

     Trotter has always hated the Greens, so his latest manifestation is not that surprising.

     But he does write well; unfortunately he tends to look at the Old Labour times through rose-tinted glasses.

     But he is right that the demise of the unions has been a disaster for the working person.
     • Anne 3.5.1

       15 February 2024 at 8:24 pm

       Don't forget who brought about the start of the demise of the unions… Muldoon between 1975 and 1984. He held a pathological grudge towards unions and is largely responsible for the Trades Hall bombing in 1984 due to his hateful public rhetoric on the subject. Someone or some persons took it upon themselves to take action against them.
       • Bearded Git 3.5.1.1

         16 February 2024 at 10:49 am

         I didn't know that Anne…thanks.
       • Tiger Mountain 3.5.1.2

         16 February 2024 at 10:59 am

         Was there at the time as a young unionist in the late 70s. I recall Muldoon’s “gang of 32” when he publicly named a number of alleged members of the Socialist Unity Party based on NZSIS surveillance. NZ Truth and Herald newspapers just lapped it all up.

         In the same era there was an NZ Nazi group that I never heard Muldoon disparage.
         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_King-Ansell

         Such was the dislike of Muldoon by unionists that pigs heads on sticks (his common nickname was “piggy” or “pig Muldoon”) were carried in some union marches. The police always appeared quickly at organised workers pickets and strikes.
         • Anne 3.5.1.2.1

           16 February 2024 at 11:37 am

           It wasn't just unionists Muldoon went after. He not only used the SIS but also journalists with the 'The Truth' newspaper who stalked and harassed individuals at his behest. It was the basis of my numerous personal experiences that lingered long after he was booted out of office. I had the misfortune to have been closely associated with one of the lackeys – not that I knew it at the time of course.

           It was the betrayal of a friendship and it took me a long time to recover.
           • Obtrectator 3.5.1.2.1.1

             17 February 2024 at 12:38 am

             Remember all that very well. He regularly guested on talkback radio, peddling his poison. He didn't need a Mike Hosking equivalent – he was his own.
             • Anne …

               17 February 2024 at 10:53 am

               I have perused old university papers about Muldoon's time in office plus old newspaper articles and concluded there was also an element inside the NZ Police Force who were assisting Muldoon.

               A good example was the Colin Moyle affair. One evening while working in his ministerial office in 1975, Moyle received a call from a person claiming to have documented evidence that something serious was occurring inside the Defence Force. He was duped into meeting the person later that evening on a Wellington inner city street corner. The bloke never turned up with the evidence but the police did. You will recall the rest.

               Moyle never revealed the truth about what happened at the time:

               a) because he knew he would not be believed and

               b) he must have had suspicions about the police involvement in the first place.

               That kind of "dirty politics" was widespread during the Muldoon years but it was never brought to light. There was no 'Nicky Hagar " around to do the hard yakka in those days.
               • Descendant Of Smith …

                 29 February 2024 at 5:35 pm

                 I met a gentleman much older than me who was English but had emigrated here many moons ago. He had a boarding house in Wellington that sailors sometimes stayed at when ships were in town. Post staying he always had police visits – the police openly said they were sent by Muldoon – to see if he had tried to convert any to communism. He had friends in the communist party but was not a member himself.

                 If he went overseas it was also made difficult for him to come back – every time.
                 • Anne …

                   29 February 2024 at 6:35 pm

                   In the early 1970s my father did something which, with the benefit of hindsight, was foolish. He joined the Auckland based Russian Friendship Society. He had an abiding interest in Russia due to a covert mission there as a young British soldier in the 1920s. He wanted to learn to speak Russian before a planned trip to the USSR in 1974. He was an independently minded person who wanted to see for himself what was going on. The trip proved to be a scary experience and my parents were relieved to get out of the place.

                   The crap started in the mid 1970s after Muldoon came to power. Mysterious incidents occurred and at one point at the least, their home was under surveillance. It eventually included me and the harassment and intimidation that followed continued well into the 1980s. A former senior politician known to the family approached the SIS for an explanation. The 'activity' had nothing to do with them. That left the police special branch. It was also known Truth newspaper journalists were involved in the game. A former associate of mine had a close link to one of those journalists. Very nasty stuff.
                   • Descendant Of Smith …

                     29 February 2024 at 7:12 pm

                     Now the National Party has massive connections with China all the while accusing Labour of being communist and socialist. National are quite happy to aid and abet the Chinese money laundering through the Auckland casino, tourism and house buying churn.

                     As we know from WWI and WWII capitalists don't care where their money comes from as long as it keeps coming.

                     Three out of many examples.

                     The Nazis reportedly made extensive use of Hollerith punch card and accounting equipment, and IBM's majority-owned German subsidiary, Deutsche Hollerith Maschinen GmbH (Dehomag), supplied them with this equipment starting in the early 1930s. The equipment was critical to Nazi efforts through ongoing censuses to categorize citizens of both Germany and other nations under Nazi control. The census data enabled the round-up of Jews and other targeted groups, and catalogued their movements through the machinery of the Holocaust, including internment in the concentration camps.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business_collaboration_with_Nazi_Germany

                     Butler confesses that during his decades of service in the United States Marine Corps:

                     I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

                     https://kether.com/words/butler-smedley–war-is-a-racket-1.pdf

                     Bush was also on the board of at least one of the companies that formed part of a multinational network of front companies to allow Thyssen to move assets around the world.

                     Thyssen owned the largest steel and coal company in Germany and grew rich from Hitler's efforts to re-arm between the two world wars. One of the pillars in Thyssen's international corporate web, UBC, worked exclusively for, and was owned by, a Thyssen-controlled bank in the Netherlands. More tantalising are Bush's links to the Consolidated Silesian Steel Company (CSSC), based in mineral rich Silesia on the German-Polish border. During the war, the company made use of Nazi slave labour from the concentration camps, including Auschwitz.

                     https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/25/usa.secondworldwar
                 • Anne …

                   29 February 2024 at 7:21 pm

                   And now we also have the Atlas network criminals to contend with. Nothing changes.
4. Michael Scott 4

   14 February 2024 at 9:57 am

   I find myself moving right.

   It started with the proposed introduction of changes to the free speech laws.

   The left had always championed free speech and it was a shock when I found myself incensed after hearing Kris Faafoi explain that people were able to be imprisoned for up to three years for "hate speech"

   He was unable to give a single example of this and it became obvious that hate speech was simply strong statements that could cause offence.

   I joined the Free Speech Union as it aligned with my beliefs.
   • Ad 4.1

     14 February 2024 at 10:52 am

     Ardern+Robertson could be classed as "Authoritarian Left".

     An uncomfortable fit for many.

     Maybe only works well for a set of self-reinforcing old Wellington institutional left.
     • SPC 4.1.1

       14 February 2024 at 3:42 pm

       Use of the word "Wellington", as a term to disparage the public service, the public sector and central government is of right wing origins – they use the term (Leviathon) swamp in the USA. As is the term institutional left.

       Posing some "old" "authoritarian left" as the origin for concern about consequences of the proliferation of hate speech in public/social media places is absent of historical base in the English speaking world.

       You should look at the role of the Dick Cheney – removing laws requiring balanced and fair reporting and the subsequent arrival of Murdoch from the UK to the USA.

       Trotteresque appeasement of the right is not the future of the left.
       • roblogic 4.1.1.1

         15 February 2024 at 4:44 pm

         The Wellington twitterati, the lanyard class, the neoliberal nimbys, the identitarian rainbow yuppies

         All just shorthand for a privileged class of person in the faux left

         No war but class war!
   • millsy 4.2

     14 February 2024 at 11:06 am

     Given that there is a concise effort to reimpose 1950's social norms, which we are seeing in laws in the USA, Hungary and Russia to restrict public discussion of LGBTQ issues, and the overturning of Roe v Wade, not to mention the fact that blacks in the USA are repeatedly smeared as criminals, leading to massive police crackdowns and brutality, it is becoming evident that free speech is a luxury we cannot afford.

     I note that the very people who carry on about free speech, also support police officers able to execute people without trial (ie George Floyed) and the the suppression of support for Palestinians.
     • Dolomedes III 4.2.1

       14 February 2024 at 1:16 pm

       Thank you Millsy for sincerely and concisely expressing a core belief of the contemporary left: "Free speech is a luxury we can't afford."
       • SPC 4.2.1.1

         14 February 2024 at 3:10 pm

         All right wingers are fascist, because some are.
       • millsy 4.2.1.2

         14 February 2024 at 3:17 pm

         Unlimited free speech only encourages the likes of the KKK, Westboro church, and the oil and gas industries. Might I point out, that the same people who scream about free speech want to jail climate change protesters, send in cops to break up gay pride parades, and so on.
       • weka 4.2.1.3

         14 February 2024 at 5:07 pm

         it’s not a core belief of the contemporary left. It’s an increasingly but still relatively uncommon belief of liberals (at lease uncommon to be said out loud).
         • Dolomedes III 4.2.1.3.1

           15 February 2024 at 1:04 pm

           Ok, that seems a reasonable position. Though it depends on what we mean by "left". The contemporary parliamentary left is down on free speech. Recall that the previous government twice attempted to introduce legislation restricting free speech, but backed down in the face of public opposition. And now we see mission creep in Ardern's Christchurch Call – she wants tech giants to suppress "gender-based hate."
           • weka 4.2.1.3.1.1

             15 February 2024 at 3:40 pm

             I'm a fan of retaining political meaning of the term left. Which means we have to use other terms when talking about for instance the NZ liberal left, or centre left and so on.

             Free speech is an American term. In NZ we have legislation that protects freedom of expression (BORA)

             https://tikatangata.org.nz/human-rights-in-aotearoa/freedom-of-opinion-and-expression

             That's not a right to say whatever we like at all times and in all places.

             And now we see mission creep in Ardern's Christchurch Call – she wants tech giants to suppress "gender-based hate."

             I would have thought online misogyny should be high on the list of targets tbh. I don't understand the rationale that say men should be allowed to post threats of rape at women online because its 'free speech'.

             Gender-based hate and violent extremism

             There are demonstrated linkages between targeted violence and gender-based hate. The Call Community is looking to deepen the evidence on the role of gender-based extremism online as a contributing factor in violent extremism and terrorism online. Greater understanding of this will inform specific policy responses, and activity across the Call work plan.

             At the 2023 Leaders’ Summit, Leaders welcomed the report on Misogynistic Pathways to Radicalisation(external link)prepared by the Institute for Strategic Dialogue in association with the Christchurch Call and the Global Partnership for Action on Gender-Based Online Harassment and Abuse. Leaders noted the importance of taking action to address anti-LGBTQIA+ violence and gender-based violence as vectors of radicalisation, developing and implementing multistakeholder recommendations on this important issue and continuing to deepen the evidence base to support further action.

             The Call Community is also seeking to deepen engagement with organisations representing communities impacted by terrorism and violent extremism online, including women, LGBTQIA+ communities, youth, and intersectional communities.

             https://www.christchurchcall.com/our-work/cross-cutting-issues-and-themes

             There are obvious issues with gender identity ideology, but the principles are sound.
             • lprent …

               16 February 2024 at 1:43 pm

               "Free speech" sucks as a statement mostly because many people seem to think that it allows them to say whatever they like without being held in any way accountable for it.

               What most advocates of "Free speech" like Dolomedes III further up want is not "free speech". What they generally seek, when you push them for examples, is to have a freedom from criticism and any other consequences for their actions.

               That is a completely different set of rights, one that is common mostly to wannabe criminals, anarchists, and warlords.

               Which has never ever been the case anywhere.

               There have always been constraints on 'speech'. In civil law, in criminal law, common law, and even in arcane areas like torts.

               The obvious ones are for making or repeating false assertions of facts about other people, organisations, and companies in civil law. This is known here as defamation and codified in the Defamation Act.

               There have always been criminal law constraints about making statement designed to incite up violence, uncivil behaviour and outright intimidation of others. There are a lot of sections of the Crimes Act, Summary Offences act. We have some specific acts like the Harmful Digital Communications Act specifically designed to address acts of intimidation via various means.

               Each of these can be regarded as constraints on "free speech", but are not. Anyone can have 'free speech' or "freedom of expression" as in the NZBORA.

               14 Freedom of expression

               Everyone has the right to freedom of expression, including the freedom to seek, receive, and impart information and opinions of any kind in any form.

               You note that it only allows the expression. A 'freedom' or 'right' as expressed here or in the US first amendment does allows you to express whatever you want. It doesn't state that you are exempt from existing laws or the expressed disdain by the rest of society who pass laws against your repeated expression.

               Those exercising that freedom or right still carry the responsibility for their actions and the judgement of their peers and of the legal system about if they are appropriate and within legal bounds.

               Generally most people who complain about restriction of "free speech" generally need to be questioned closely about their knowledge of the legal basis or such freedoms or rights that exist now and if they'd like those to be removed..

               After all every scammer lying to part retirees from their life-savings is merely exercising "free speech". Should there be no consequences or responsibility for them?

               A arsonist burning down a house with people sleeping in it, is merely exerting their "freedom of expression".

               Personally I find it tiresome to have brainless parrots like Dolomedes III uttering "free speech" like a mantra without having any damn idea about what it means. Also clearly having never thought about it, or even managing to frame it into something that is applicable to NZ law (there it is "freedom of expression").
               • Dolomedes III …

                 16 February 2024 at 6:05 pm

                 Speak for yourself lprent, because you have no talent for mind-reading.
                 • lprent …

                   20 February 2024 at 12:18 pm

                   I do have a talent for getting under the skin of people who don't explain what their underlying rationale for their opinions is.
               • weka …

                 16 February 2024 at 6:29 pm

                 that would make a good post. I agree there is a real dearth of knowledge about what the law says, various legislation and what that means in NZ.

                 What are your thoughts on the Human Rights (Incitement on Ground of Religious Belief) Amendment Bill from last year?
                 • SPC …

                   16 February 2024 at 6:47 pm

                   It will be interesting to see what the current government do.

                   The 2017 National government left office with the old blasphemy law still in place.

                   But a change in 2019 was supported by all parties.

                   https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/blasphemous-libel-law-repealed

                   https://humanists.international/2019/03/new-zealand-is-latest-nation-to-repeal-blasphemy-laws/

                   There was a form of replacement in the proposal to add religious hate speech to race hate speech

                   https://www.justice.govt.nz/justice-sector-policy/key-initiatives/human-rights-act-amendment-to-strengthen-incitement-laws/

                   This met with criticism from a civil liberties group.

                   https://nzccl.org.nz/opposing-the-human-rights-incitement-on-ground-of-religious-belief-amendment-bill/

                   https://nzccl.org.nz/submission-human-rights-incitement-on-ground-of-religious-belief-amendment-bill/
             • Dolomedes III …

               16 February 2024 at 6:01 pm

               "I dont understand the rationale that say men should be allowed to post threats of rape at women online because of 'free speech'".

               Ah Weka, you wouldn't be engaging in a bit of "motte and bailey" would you? Stopping online rape threats is a no-brainer (your easily defended motte), but Ardern will want to go much further than that. "You'll know it when you see it", said Ardern when pressed to define what she meant by "hate speech". Like all too many contemporary progressives, Ardern wants to suppress opinions she disagrees with.
               • weka …

                 16 February 2024 at 6:22 pm

                 Stopping online rape threats is a no-brainer…

                 do you mean morally it's a no brainer, or doing the stopping is a no-brainer? Because the latter is not true, and apparently the former isn't either given how much it still happens to women.

                 but Ardern will want to go much further than that. "You'll know it when you see it", said Ardern when pressed to define what she meant by "hate speech". Like all too many contemporary progressives, Ardern wants to suppress opinions she disagrees with.

                 I know this is a belief, but I'd like to see the evidence that supports the concern.

                 Someone on twitter quoted Ardern out of context the other day, her saying during the lockdown to not talk to your neigbourbours. She did literally say that but rather than it being a sinister, authoritarian, down the rabbit hole thing, she was simply meant that people shouldn't go over to the neighbours for a cup of tea, or stop and talk to them at the gate. Because delta was considered highly contagious. She wasn't saying don't email/text/phone/zoom with your neighbours. Because that would be daft.

                 See how easy it is to misrepresent a position?

                 You've stated twice now that Ardern wants to suppress opinions she disagrees with, but haven't produced anything to support that. If you want me to not go with the low hanging fruit in the argument, then put up an actual argument.
                 • Dolomedes III …

                   16 February 2024 at 9:34 pm

                   Any person of good faith will understand what I meant by saying stopping rape threats is a no-brainer – the context makes it clear, so I don't know why you saw a need to muddy the waters.

                   Your claim about "misrepresentation" of Ardern's "don't talk to your neighbours" is a strawman. Of course she didn't mean you couldn't email them or phone them.

                   You want evidence that Ardern wants to suppress opinions that dissent from current progressive orthodoxy? As I've said, twice her government tried to introduce legislation to restrict (and criminalize) expression of "harmful" views – I wrote submissions on both these ill-conceived pieces of legislation, which certainly weren't just about stopping rape threats. And penalties of up to three years in prison were recommended – that exceeds the penalty for male assaults female.

                   And look at the language of the text you've quoted from the updated Christchurch Call:

                   The Call Community is looking to deepen the evidence on the role of gender-based extremism online as a contributing factor in violent extremism and terrorism online.

                   "Looking to deepen the evidence" is the language of someone who already knows the "truth", and is looking for evidence to support their ideological agenda. Someone who will cherrypick the evidence, as ideologues invariably do.

                   I'll include the last couple of paragraphs from my submission on the Ardern government's ill-fated "hate speech" legislation, as they seem relevant:

                   This bill is supposedly a response to the horrors of 15/03/19, yet ministers of the crown have acknowledged that nothing in the proposed legislation would have prevented the mosque attacks. This bill is therefore either an attempt by the government to ease its embarrassment for the failure of intelligence and regulation that enabled Tarrant to commit mass murder, or else an opportunistic attempt to suppress dissenting views.

                   This government does not appear to understand that nobody can legislate for tolerance. What you can do to foster a climate of tolerance is reduce resentment and the likelihood of scapegoating by reducing inequality between individuals in NZ, and by ensuring nobody feels disenfranchised or left behind. The government’s focus should be on restoring the equality of opportunity that was destroyed by the user-pays "reforms" of the 80s and early 90s – not on trying to gag people and criminalize dissenting views.

                   This entire bill is ill-conceived. It will not make anyone safer, and it will create widespread resentment. It will make NZ a more (not less) hateful place. It is exactly the sort of draconian repression that Tarrant wanted to provoke, and it’s very disappointing that our law-makers apparently cannot see that. We have existing legislation that rightly punishes those who incite people to harm others, or themselves. This bill is a deal-breaker for me – I will not vote for any parliamentarian who supports this dangerous piece of legislation.
                   • weka …

                     17 February 2024 at 10:28 am

                     Any person of good faith will understand what I meant by saying stopping rape threats is a no-brainer – the context makes it clear, so I don't know why you saw a need to muddy the waters.

                     You said something I didn't understand, and when asked for clarification, instead of clarifying, you accuse me of bad faith? I still don't know what you meant.

                     Your claim about "misrepresentation" of Ardern's "don't talk to your neighbours" is a strawman. Of course she didn't mean you couldn't email them or phone them.

                     You seem to have missed the point of my story. The person posting on twitter was misleading their followers about Ardern by saying that Ardern said 'don't talk to your neighbours' without providing the context for that. That's the problem of internet reckons without evidence and explanation.

                     Her comment was propaganda. I'm not saying yours is, I'm saying that it's impossible to understand without evidence and explanation.

                     https://twitter.com/MurfittTauranga/status/1756400147913933108

                     https://twitter.com/wekatweets/status/1757897949299019932

                     "Looking to deepen the evidence" is the language of someone who already knows the "truth", and is looking for evidence to support their ideological agenda. Someone who will cherrypick the evidence, as ideologues invariably do.

                     Could be. Or it could be wanky corporate speak that Ardern and her peers are immersed in. I thought deepen the evidence was an odd phrase, but if the intent is to do research to inform policy on for instance how to prevent rape threats on social media, then that's a good thing.

                     Your submission quote is interesting. There are things I agree and disagree with. However, it's a statement of philosophy. I love philosophy and the intersection with politics, do it a lot myself. Without evidence it remains in the realm of interesting. For political change we need evidence as well.

                     You haven't provide any. At some point you will fall foul with moderation on TS over this. We require people to back up their arguments and claims of fact. You might think this is unnecessary or onerous, but consider that you might have been able to teach readers here something, myself included, if you have been able to back up your philosophical positions with some kind of corroboration.

                     (and as another tip, generally here we make an argument in our own words, and back that up with selected quotes that demonstrate support as well as links to where those quotes came from. Time stamps for video/audio. This is what maintains good debate culture. Otherwise discussion descends into a bunch of reckons, misleading and derailing, and eventually flame wars).
                   • lprent …

                     20 February 2024 at 12:27 pm

                     Yeah Dolomedes III appears to be an advocate of "common sense" – when all of history shows that there is no such thing. It is invariably exposed later as a rort and/or scam

                     Which basically means that they consider that they can make up rules about what that is. Explaining is beneath them because it would involve them

                     • actually engaging their brain.
                     • explaining the reasoning behind it
                     • having to do any research to find out what the actual laws are.

                     Essentially the actions of a person who cannot argue because they are

                     • self-entitled
                     • lazy
                     • somewhat stupid
                     • expect everyone else to sit in stunned awe at their godness
                     • or all four at once like another lazy narcissistic sociopath like Trump.

                     Just my opinion – but it does fit their behaviour on this site.
           • Anker 4.2.1.3.1.2

             16 February 2024 at 10:16 pm

             100% Dolomedes 111
   • weka 4.3

     14 February 2024 at 11:18 am

     you don't have to move right to object to the framing of free/hate speech in NZ.
     • Dolomedes III 4.3.1

       14 February 2024 at 4:13 pm

       But you will be called right-wing.
       • weka 4.3.1.1

         14 February 2024 at 4:58 pm

         by some. But it's a choice to move to the right over freedom of expression. It's not a necessity. One can uphold freedom of expression without adopting right wing values and positions.
       • Muttonbird 4.3.1.2

         14 February 2024 at 9:34 pm

         You were probably always right wing but didn't know it until challenged.
         • Michael Scott 4.3.1.2.1

           15 February 2024 at 9:00 am

           You may be right MB but as someone said "We're all just walking each other home"

           I grew up in a poorish community with lots of urban Maori families. I genuinely can't remember any prejudice. We all went to the same churches and played the same sports.

           My grand parents had two framed photos of MJ Savage and I remember my Dad hated Muldoon.

           When I was 17 I walked into the Progressive Bookshop in Darby St Auckland and over coffee was introduced to the beauty of Communism. I joined the NZ Party left with numerous free leaflets.

           My parents were horrified.

           I knew two big things at that stage. The workers in NZ were going to revolt and introduce a better way and that Jesus was coming soon.

           I'm less sure of what I believe now but really enjoy reading political blogs and learning and thinking about the best ways to create the great society that we could be.
   • SPC 4.4

     14 February 2024 at 3:23 pm

     I noted the FSU, not only did not defend the critics of Israel when they were attacked, some leading figures even joined in.

     It is patently of a western civilisation nativism – in the sense it is of a property owning class culture and establishment values – albeit ultimately trickling down to the working class in being allowed the vote without owning property – the 1916-1918 conscription price.

     Which is how it has become bound up in defence of big tobacco and settler majority Treaty revisionism – our version of the OZ cancelling of the idea of the indigenous people having a voice.
   • Anker 4.5

     14 February 2024 at 8:27 pm

     100% Michael Scott. I had a similar experience. Even worse Jacinda's comments on hate Speech "you know it when you see it"

     As a gender critical feminists, I experienced having meetings cancelled, being abused and called a Terf and worse, have the left attempt to shut down our free speech in Albert Park (and doing so successfully). To have this experience has effected me profoundly. Nothing to do with the Atlas Network. What it did do though is I started paying more attention to a whole lot of other areas of Labours policies and I started to realize how undemocratic they were. The so-called right were the only ones standing up for free speech and women's rights.
     • roblogic 4.5.1

       16 February 2024 at 10:38 pm

       What a great wedge issue it has been. Perhaps we should judge social movements not only by their words but also pay attention to their actions and outcomes.
   • Descendant Of Smith 4.6

     29 February 2024 at 7:25 pm

     I find myself moving right.

     They have done such a good job in NZ of making working class think they are middle class and of having economic self-flagellation be seen as heroic. Even now as they tell you that increasing unemployment and bank profits through higher interest rates is good for you, as is setting targets and expectations to beat up the newly laid off, the unwell and the poor as they pocket the tax breaks and the increased dividends while they trickle down a steady stream of urine on your head and tell you it's good for you and will make you a man.

     They are literally laughing all the way to the bank. All you have to do is work harder.

     A weakling, weighing 98 pounds
     Will get sand in his face
     When kicked to the ground
     And soon in the gym with a determined chin
     The sweat from his pores
     As he works for his cause
     Will make him glisten
     And gleam, and with massage
     And just a little bit of steam, hm hm hm

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEx8__ie6bg
5. Anne 5

   14 February 2024 at 10:02 am

   Just like Richard Prebble (and others) Trotter has developed a deep grudge against the political left and in particular Labour. Somewhere in his past I think you will find Labour spurned his journalistic wares and he's been paying them back ever since.

   It happened to Prebble who was once a powerful force inside Labour until one day he was not anymore. He's also been throwing brickbats at them ever since. I suspect the same happened to Bassett.

   Damaged egos can be a dangerous thing.
   • thinker 5.1

     15 February 2024 at 7:10 am

     Maybe, when there's not enough leftists that find Trotters name familiar, he'll go the way of Brash and Hide.

     IMHO, the right don't do unconditional love well.
6. Ad 6

   14 February 2024 at 10:49 am

   The left used to be able to rely on the universities to do its thinking for it.

   With the collapse of polytechs and the decline of universities, the absence of leftie think-tanks other than the wonderful Helen Clark's is a huge asset loss for the left.

   Once I retire I'll set one up. Durn straight.
   • SPC 6.1

     14 February 2024 at 3:24 pm

     A lot of the old working class left political leadership never went to university – they learnt by reading books and meetings.
     • millsy 6.1.1

       14 February 2024 at 3:43 pm

       Today's working class only care about UFC and what Joe Rogan has to say now.
       • Michael Scott 6.1.1.1

         14 February 2024 at 7:06 pm

         Millsy are you a leftist caricature?
         • millsy 6.1.1.1.1

           14 February 2024 at 7:23 pm

           ?
         • Muttonbird 6.1.1.1.2

           14 February 2024 at 9:12 pm

           I thought millsy had a good generally observational point. It speaks to how the working class today are great customers for marketing in all its forms. See Phillip Morris etc with vapes.

           But to your accusation that millsy comments are trivial and comedic, I found yours @ 4 laughable.

           I’m surprised you didn’t preface by saying I’ve always voted Labour, my father voted Labour, and my father’s father voted Labour…but that Jacinda ruined it all.
   • Anker 6.2

     14 February 2024 at 8:27 pm

     100% Ad
   • Anker 6.3

     14 February 2024 at 8:31 pm

     UNiversitites here and overseas have been captured by the ideologically driven left ie critical race theory and gender ideology. They have had a very significant influence on our institutions for example the public service
     • millsy 6.3.1

       14 February 2024 at 9:29 pm

       What is wrong with critical race theory. At the end of the day, there has been historical attiudes that blacks are inferior to whites. What is wrong with that being discussed?

       From your posts over the past several years, I have gotten the impression that you are opposed to any and all social progress, and you want to turn the clock back to the 1950's..
       • Anker 6.3.1.1

         16 February 2024 at 10:03 pm

         Thanks Millsy, they are reasonable questions. Not sure if you got my message on The Daily Blog to let you know I will not reply to you because made wild interpretations re what I had said, were often very rude,including telling me you thought I was a nurse and if you knew my name you would report me to the nursing council and accused me of outrageous things.

         But as I say what you have written above is reasonable. The short answer is because I ardently believe what Martyn Luther King said (we should judge a man by his character, not the colour of his skin). This is what I always do.

         And yet according the CRT "colour blindness" is. racist. My Maori husband and I were watching a programme on CRT and half way through I said to him according to this stuff you must be a racist and therefore white, because of the way you think.

         I think the emphasis that CRT and the likes of D'Angelo put on race, emphasis race and racial categories. And their CRT have been found not to work (will look for a link, don't have one off hand). I find it abhorant that little kids are taught to focus on their white guilt across schools in America. These are children. Why guilt trip them? FFS, could anything be more likely to separate people?

         I think the CRT is emotionally manipulative. e.g if you don't acknowlegde your white privelege you must be racist. And you are not supposed to feel upset about your inherant racism because if you do it is because of your white fragility.

         I think one of the best ways of overcoming what racism there is in NZ is from focussing on the greater good. You see it in our sporting teams

         BTW although my husband looks Maori, he tells me he has never experienced racism in NZ and I have never observed it around him. I think its because most Kiwis are pretty decent minded and willing to give a good person a go, no matter what their skin colour is
         • Dolomedes III 6.3.1.1.1

           17 February 2024 at 7:52 pm

           "Saying if you knew my name you would report me to the nursing council"

           An example of why so many people use pseudonyms.

           [Please fix your user name in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]
           • Incognito 6.3.1.1.1.1

             17 February 2024 at 8:01 pm

             Mod note
   • Muttonbird 6.4

     14 February 2024 at 9:29 pm

     Bit of a sneering stretch to say trade and vocational training has collapsed and universities are in decline. That's just the unsubstantiated reckons of a dilettante pretend left blogger.
   • Patricia Bremner 6.5

     15 February 2024 at 11:03 am

     100% Ad.
7. Dolomedes III 7

   15 February 2024 at 1:54 pm

   Ok, Trotter's article is sloppy. But his title nails an important truth. As Taylor Swift put it "I'll look directly at the sun, but not in the mirror". The parliamentary left can't seem to accept that they screwed up – the election defeat must have been due to sinister machinations. Reminiscent of Trump, is it not?
8. Anker 8

   16 February 2024 at 10:06 pm

   I agree Dolomedes, the left seem to be unwilling to look for where they went wrong (in terms of me, the Labour women in the parliamentary select committee on gender self id), but want to find a "cause" external to themselves.

   I don't think its like Trump though, who is another kettle of fish. Just my opinion. I honestly think the Left are still in shock and are actually hurting a lot
9. roblogic 9

   17 February 2024 at 9:19 am

   Labour's "crimes":

   • Vaccinations and emergency health measures in a pandemic
   • Restricting firearms after a mosque massacre
   • Housing the homeless
   • Free school lunches
   • Cheaper Public Transport
   • Public Water Infrastructure
   • Upgraded Cook Strait Ferries

   Right wing scum and villains have been spreading lies relentlessly and framing this stuff with racist conspiracies. They duped farmers with false promises of free water, and many workers with a straight up lie about a "tax cut" of $150/fortnight.

   People were afraid during the pandemic and Jacinda was a convenient scapegoat. Some on the left have been fooled, abandoned their principles, and fallen down rabbit holes.

   The reality is that if we want a decent Aotearoa in which everyone has a chance, then we need a government that respects workers' rights, helps the poor, acknowledges Māori disadvantage, and doesn't wreck the natural world.

   i.e. NOT NATIONAL and the current pack of clueless shysters running around cancelling and cutting, with no plan to actually build anything.
   • Robert Guyton 9.1

     17 February 2024 at 9:27 am

     That's perfectly framed and described, roblogic.
     • roblogic 9.1.1

       17 February 2024 at 12:21 pm

       Thanks Robert, some of the comments above were pretty annoying to read. Feels like parts of the Left are going around in circles, others are completely disaffected and disillusioned, and others are on the fence and generally pissed off.

       There is a way forwards from here, but we will have to navigate through the weeds of confusion and doubt sown by chaos agents from the Right.
       • Robert Guyton 9.1.1.1

         17 February 2024 at 12:38 pm

         Agreed. It irked me to read the Right-wing trope (?) meme, claim that the Labour Government was "failing to deliver" and watch lefties absorb and broadcast the same claim. What I saw, from my particular involvement with resource management, farming included, was genuinely courageous actions by the left-wing government being countered/blocked by the Right and their agents (Groundswell et al.) then the blame for slowed-down or failed projects (3 Waters, anyone?) sheeted straight back to the Labour Government as proof that they fail to deliver. I watched it happen here on TS and, while I've not expertise at all with the issues that people anguished-over here and can only speak about what I saw up close and personally, I did feel that many/most voters were being hog-washed.
         • Descendant Of Smith 9.1.1.1.1

           29 February 2024 at 7:36 pm

           You seem to think that we fail to recognise the things they did well. That isn't true.

           I for one criticise them for being right-wingish since the mid-1980's. Have been consistent in that since 1984 and they have not moved. In fact in many, many instances they have gone further right.

           An 8 hour day, 40 hour working week will for me always be the starting point. The thing that gave people a life outside of work, created more jobs as employers had to make a choice between employing someone or the additional cost of paying existing workers time and a half or double time. This was once normal.

           Labour are miles away from this. Often their publicly stated rhetoric doesn't match their implementation – WEAG being a good example.

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