Open mike 15/01/2014

Written By: - Date published: 6:50 am, January 15th, 2014 - 205 comments
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openmike

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For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

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Step right up to the mike …

205 comments on “Open mike 15/01/2014 ”

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  1. Morrissey 1
    15 January 2014 at 7:36 am

    Sensible Sentencing Trust’s offender data base a bit threadbare
    High-profile criminals have not yet been included

    Yesterday I heard Garth “The Knife” McVicar on his publicly funded advertising outlet (Radio NZ National) announcing that the S.S. Trust Offenders Database was up and running again. I made a quick visit to the site to see just how thorough and comprehensive it was. One of the first things you notice is this laudable statement: “The Sensible Sentencing Trust believes in an open and transparent Justice System.”

    First up, I typed in the name Alan Titford and ticked the box for “Arson”. NO RESULT.

    Next, I typed in the name David Garrett and ticked the box for “Robbery/Attempted Robbery”. NO RESULT.

    Then I typed in the name Bruce Emery and ticked the box for “Murder/Manslaughter”. NO RESULT.

    Since these are all high-profile offenders, it seemed odd that their names were not yet on this database. Then I saw the following sign: “Submit Offender Information: Use the form below to get in touch and submit information about offenders.”

    I filled in the submission form with the following information….

    BRUCE EMERY. In late 2008, he chased down a boy on a South Auckland street, then stabbed him repeatedly, killing him.

    Perhaps other Standard readers may like to submit the same names (Titford, Garrett, Emery) to the database, with a résumé of their crimes, to remind the people at the S.S. Trust to get it up to date……
    http://www.sst.org.nz/offenders-database/

    • Rosie 1.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:43 am

      SST are particularly selective about who’s on their naughty list aren’t they? Emery’s victim, Pihema Cameron, for example, apparently not worthy of the same amount of outrage as others, yet, Pihema’s family received the least amount of justice. So why the silence?

      Hypocrites.

      • Morrissey 1.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 10:01 am

        Emery’s victim, Pihema Cameron, for example, apparently not worthy of the same amount of outrage as others…

        It’s actually far, far worse than that, Rosie. Garth McVicar actually mounted a public campaign of traducing the reputation and memory of the dead boy and his family. He also loudly advocated for tolerance for and understanding of the boy’s killer, who he claimed was a decent citizen. Noelle McCarthy was struggling to hide her disgust for McVicar when she interviewed him in March 2011…
        http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-09032011/#comment-306178

        • Rosie 1.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 10:35 am

          Oh that is truly despicable. Double standards, hypocrisy, and undisguised callousness. McVicar’s brain must be well and truly addled. He is no victims rights advocate, he is a vulture.

          And yes, he really is a vulture, the way he swoops when someone has been murdered – but only for a victim who fits his description of who is worthy of outrage.

          • phillip ure 1.1.1.1.1
            15 January 2014 at 1:43 pm

            mcvicar is not only a ‘vulture’..

            ..he is a calculated/calculating/opportunistic ‘vulture’..

            ..the worst kind..

            ..phillip ure..

    • McFlock 1.2
      15 January 2014 at 12:22 pm

      To be fair, Garrett isn’t a robber AFAIK.
      Thug, identity thief, drink driver: yes.
      But not a robber.

    • Murray Olsen 1.3
      15 January 2014 at 4:57 pm

      I have let them know about Alan Titford:
      “Alan Titford is an extremely dangerous offender who has been convicted of arson. I believe you need to keep an eye on him, as he is very dangerous to women, children, minorities, and seems totally divorced from reality. ”

      They can probably keep an eye on him once he’s paroled, when he’ll be able to attend their meetings again.

  2. adam 2
    15 January 2014 at 7:41 am

    Hi folks – would like some help refining this argument. Please any criticisms and other input welcome , Thanks in advance.

    I have a problem with cars – a 100 years ago they had 4 wheels, a motor which ran on oil and a body – same as today really. A computer on the other hand was as large as a house, run on valves and need the operating system written in every day. Now your phone is a more powerful computer than the computer they used to land on the moon – but your car is still 4 wheels on a body, with a motor run with oil.

    • cricklewood 2.2
      15 January 2014 at 8:32 am

      not to mention much like computers, engines have become more powerful, more efficient and much smaller… anf computers still run on electric.
      To easily picked apart imo

      • karol 2.2.1
        15 January 2014 at 9:17 am

        And the car engines are pretty digitsed today – mechanics take all sorts of readings with electronic machines. My mechanic talks about how these days there’s all sorts of liquids that need monitoring and replacing at different times. Used to be that cars just mostly needed a main oil change.

        But, I reckon we should just go back to the horse and cart – maintenance would be far easier – fuel top ups every day, regular checks with the vet and of the wheels, cart and reigns, daily waste disposal…… most jobs we could easily do ourselves without expensive equipment to monitor fluids and parts.

        • KJT 2.2.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 10:16 am

          Unfortunately, horses emit more greenhouse gases per tonne/km, than trucks. 🙂

          • Bill 2.2.1.1.1
            15 January 2014 at 10:51 am

            Difference being that horses and what not are merely recycling the ‘natural sink’ of carbon whereas oil is an addition to that ‘natural sink’ – like the difference between burning wood and burning coal. 😉

            • McFlock 2.2.1.1.1.1
              15 January 2014 at 2:14 pm

              right up until they add fertiliser to the soil to feed the horses, in which case the difference diminishes significantly 🙂

              • Bill …
                15 January 2014 at 2:49 pm

                And again, that depends on the source of the fertiliser and how we choose to manage soils, no? Pour oil derivatives on and we are adding external sources to the ‘natural sink’…allow pastures to lie fallow so that soil, its ecosystems and fertility build up and gasses from the ‘natural sink’ and natural cycle, that nevertheless contribute to warming are, at least temporarily, sequestrated.

        • Rosie 2.2.1.2
          15 January 2014 at 10:53 am

          “But, I reckon we should just go back to the horse and cart”

          Please no karol! Horses are treated appallingly here in NZ, the number of them that turn up half dead with their spirits broken at animal sanctuaries around the country are a testament to that. Even now days, Once a horse is deemed to have finished its useful life it is still sent to slaughter and ends up in Jimbo’s pet food. I kid you not. I have met these beautiful darlings who have been rescued at the last moment.

          And work horses that are used in other countries are used and abused and often die young from untreated injuries and illnesses. It’s the one time where you actually welcome those busy body types that get all judgemental with how other cultures operate, to come and set up horse hospitals, take the work horses of the hands of the “owner”, provide them with income lost for not having their horse or donkey working, treat the horse for diseases and injury, feed them up, get them well nourished and return to them to the owner with instructions on how to take care of them. (This happens in Egypt but may also be happening in other countries)

          Horses are highly sensitive, sociable and emotional herd animals that suffer so much at our hands and tolerate so much. They are also hugely expensive to look after and high maintenance.

          People that are supposed to be “horse people” can’t always be trusted to care for horses, let alone folks that know nothing of them.

          Instead, how about we overthrow Big Oil and create a vehicle that is simple to run and maintain and runs on water? Not much to ask eh? Lol.

          • veutoviper 2.2.1.2.1
            15 January 2014 at 11:03 am

            I absolutely agree, Rosie.

            A lot of people think that SPCAs were set up to look after pets such as dogs and cats, etc.

            The history of SPCAs is that they were established in the mid 1800s by Wilberforce and others to deal with the appalling treatment of horses in the days of the horse and cart, horses being used in coal mines etc etc. In fact, the establishment of SPCAs here in NZ for this purpose predates the establishment of a Police force.

            • Rosie 2.2.1.2.1.1
              15 January 2014 at 11:43 am

              Oh, that first scene in “Amazing Grace” where the character of William Wilberforce came across a pair of men who were beating a cart horse who had fallen from exhaustion was so awful.

              The Industrial Revolution saved the work horse from future harm and organisations like the SPCA helped to educate others as the horse transitioned from work to recreation in industrialised nations. So the Industrial Revolution improved the lot for the horse but being humans, we managed to stuff up our planet instead.

              • Ennui …
                15 January 2014 at 3:26 pm

                Its at this point I put my hand up for all the farm animals abused by the attitude of the NZ farmer. All livestock requires shelter from the sun, cold, rain and wind, and all livestock need sufficient space and freedom of movement. Go out of town, see all the cows and sheep in full sun with no shelter, or freezing in open paddocks during a southerly. Or pigs and chickens imprisoned in cages. We farm industrially and treat the stock appallingly.

                I might also add the farmers are matched in their disdain of living things by anglers (of whom I am one) who hold their catch up out of water for a photo, and who delight in the joys of “fighting” a distressed fish rather than making it short and sweet. Growl, things that make me mad……

                • Rosie …
                  15 January 2014 at 4:02 pm

                  “We farm industrially and treat the stock appallingly’

                  Indeed we do Ennui. Our lack of basic compassion for “industrial” animals in our care demonstrates a lack of emotional intelligence, and certainly a lack of respect for the animal.

                  I wonder if there will ever be a government enlightened or willing enough to introduce decent standards of care for farmed animals. Funnily enough it may likely be economically advantageous for exporters if we could demonstrate that NZer’s were caring farmers, of both animals and the land.

                  Good on you for not mucking around with your fish either.

                • gsays …
                  15 January 2014 at 9:23 pm

                  plus one ennui .
                  i would have a lot more respect for the spca if they started to agitate/educate/advocate about farmed animals that do not have shelter.
                  to see a cow in the height of summer, standing with its head in the shadow of a strainer post, to get some relief is kinda sad.
                  it is even more galling as there is dollars involved.

              • Descendant Of Sssmith …
                15 January 2014 at 5:25 pm

                Methinks horses are not the answer.

                The motor vehicle saved humankind from horse manure and dead horses. If a horse broke down it was oft shot and left in the street for the city authorities to take care of the corpse.

                http://www.uctc.net/access/30/Access%2030%20-%2002%20-%20Horse%20Power.pdf

                “The horse was no newcomer on the urban scene. But by the late
                1800s, the problem of horse pollution had reached unprecedented
                heights. The growth in the horse population was outstripping even the
                rapid rise in the number of human city dwellers. American cities were
                drowning in horse manure as well as other unpleasant byproducts of
                the era’s predominant mode of transportation: urine, flies, congestion,
                carcasses, and traffic accidents.Widespread cruelty to horses was a form
                of environmental degradation as well.

                The situation seemed dire.

                In 1894, the Times of London estimated that by 1950 every street in the city would be buried nine feet deep in horse manure.”

            • karol 2.2.1.2.1.2
              15 January 2014 at 11:44 am

              OK. I learned something. Thanks, Rosie and veuto.

              I like walking anyway.

              • alwyn …
                15 January 2014 at 12:39 pm

                I hope that there isn’t any leather in your shoes karol.
                If there is I hope you will think of the poor animal that died in order that you might walk comfortably in your leather (uppers or soles) shoes.

                • felix …
                  15 January 2014 at 12:46 pm

                  Yes alwyn, treating animals cruelly while they’re alive is exactly the same as making shoes out of them when they’re dead.

                  🙄

                  • phillip ure …
                    15 January 2014 at 1:49 pm

                    it’s more that it is part of the same uncaring continuum..felix..

                    ..that belief that animals are there for our pleasure/use/exploitation..

                    ..and yep..!..when you haven’t worn animal skins for a long time..

                    ..yr standard pair of shoes is kinda gross..

                    ..you look at it..and you don’t think..’mmm!..leather.!’..

                    ..you think..animal skin taken/used as the final indignity in their miserable/tortured lives..ew..!

                    ..it’s all a matter of perspective..eh…

                    ..phillip ure..

                    • karol …
                      15 January 2014 at 2:01 pm

                      I think my footwear is mostly rubber & synthetic – I’d have thought hardly any kinder to the environment than leather – what am I going to do – stay home, go barefoot on todays pavements?

                    • Bill …
                      15 January 2014 at 2:56 pm

                      I think my footwear is mostly rubber & synthetic –

                      Ah, nothing to beat that old vegan stinkfoot syndrome…especially hingy when synthetic socks are thrown into the rubber/canvas/nylon shoe mix 😉

                    • alwyn …
                      15 January 2014 at 3:01 pm

                      You are forgiven Karol. Sackcloth and ashes are not required.
                      I was only trying to get a little lightness into life with the remark.
                      My god, but the stuff before your comment, on the origons of the SPCA and the treatment of horses, was depressing wasn’t it?

                    • phillip ure …
                      15 January 2014 at 3:12 pm

                      @ alwyn..

                      ..that recoiling in disgust re the historical treatment of horses..

                      ..if vehemently stated today..while wolfing down some veal/w.h.y….

                      ..does take black-irony to a new level..eh..?

                      ..i call it the greenpeace-bbq-syndrome..

                      ..save the planet..!

                      ..(but first..excuse me while i chow down on some animal-flesh..)

                      ..phillip ure..

                    • Arfamo …
                      15 January 2014 at 3:17 pm

                      Phil …

                      you seem to be …

                      posting more frequently…

                      lately….

                      Are you…

                      leaving enough room…

                      for…

                      Penny?

                • McFlock …
                  15 January 2014 at 2:53 pm

                  If we don’t crush the souls of animals as we walk, how do we absorb their vitalistic powers?

              • Rosie …
                15 January 2014 at 4:03 pm

                Lol. I may have been a bit reactive karol, but it wasn’t aimed at you at all 🙂

        • miravox 2.2.1.3
          16 January 2014 at 3:13 am

          Believe me, you wouldn’t go back to a horse and cart if you lived in a city where they regularly run tourists around. The roads they use and the park-up spots are to be avoided. Although the poo is capture in horsey bags, the stench of horse-piss is unbearable in summer (barely bearable in winter).

    • jcuknz 2.3
      15 January 2014 at 9:00 am

      In the past hundred years I think it is correct to say that the human cargo they are designed to carry has got taller and considerably bigger with over eating, in countries where cars are produced so it is understandable that their size has not reduced …. there has for a long time been the alternative motorbikes and shanks pony .. the latter is miniscule.

    • Bill 2.4
      15 January 2014 at 10:55 am

      Why would car manufacturers want to produce more efficient, and therefore less profitable cars? Maybe trace the connections between the oil industry and car manufacturers? Also…why the hell were cars ever introduced as a means of mass transport? Oh yeah…the conspiracy (charged in court as such and found guilty) of the rubber industry, oil industry and car industry, whereby they bought up public transport networks and deliberately trashed them to create a market for the automobile.

  3. Sanctuary 3
    15 January 2014 at 7:46 am

    15,000+ people registered to attend Kim Dotcom’s party launch, which due to wild interest has been moved from the Cloud to Vector Arena.

    I hope John Key has got his party pants, because it looks like we are in for a German Sparkle Party.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-jN3vH26NQ

    • phillip ure 3.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:09 am

      re 15,000 vector..

      could you give the link/source for than information..

      ..ta..

      ..i wd like to report on it..

      ..but can’t just take yr word for it..eh..?

      ..nothing personal…

      phillip ure..

      • Sanctuary 3.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 8:28 am

        http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11186349

        “…However, more than 15,000 people registered for tickets, forcing Dotcom to move the party to Vector Arena…”

        • phillip ure 3.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 9:22 am

          @ sanctuary..

          ..thanks..

          ..just that fact should have politicians of all stripes reaching for the anti-depressants..

          phillip ure..

          • veutoviper 3.1.1.1.1
            15 January 2014 at 10:14 am

            You might also be interested in reading Chris Trotter’s take on the possible ramifications of the launch of KDC’s political party, PU, on his blog site, Bowalley Road and in The Press today.

            http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.com/2014/01/get-ready-for-megaparty-of-serious-fun.html

            http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/opinion/columnists/chris-trotter/9606125/Dotcoms-Megaparty-of-serious-fun

            Trotter’s view is that it may well appeal a lot to the younger generation of voters as a fresh option unencumbered by the past – an extract from his article
            “Statistics New Zealand estimate that on June 30, 2013, there were 333,840 New Zealanders aged 20-24 – more than enough to surmount the 5 per cent MMP threshold.”

            With over 15,000 people already registered for tickets to The PartyParty next Monday night in less than 24 hours, IMO they will get the 500 registered members very quickly to qualify for registration of the political party.

            UPDATE; KDC has just tweeted that the name of the party will be the “Internet Party”, not the Mega Party. He has also tweeted the logo

            https://twitter.com/KimDotcom

            • KJT 3.1.1.1.1.1
              15 January 2014 at 10:21 am

              KDC is popular up north.
              He was doing rather a good job of redistributing his wealth, locally.

            • phillip ure 3.1.1.1.1.2
              15 January 2014 at 10:26 am

              lousy logo..

              you’d think they’d de-capitalise..drop the stop..

              ..and centre ‘party’ under ‘internet’..

              ..or run both on same line..

              ..it feels not in the slightest bit..’modern’..

              ..and that was the best shade of purple to hand..?

              ..i don’t mean to be picky..but..

              ..there is so much to pick at..

              ..phillip ure..

              • Molly …
                15 January 2014 at 3:56 pm

                Guessing the reason for capitalising both words and putting Party directly under Internet is so that you have a vertical acronym IP – Internet Protocol which fits the agenda – such as it is.

                Have no idea about the purple though.

                • karol …
                  15 January 2014 at 4:02 pm

                  Purple is a Suffragette colour. – or lesbian – or just a mix of red and blue signifiying it’s neither totally left or right wing – which, IMO, usually means centrist according to the centre ground of the time.

                  • QoT …
                    15 January 2014 at 4:06 pm

                    Purple = United Future in my brain.

                    Someone on Twitter noted it’s also close to the colour palette for Orcon.

                    [ETA: I see BM also made the Orcon connection downthread.]

                  • lprent …
                    15 January 2014 at 11:41 pm

                    … or just a mix of red and blue signifiying it’s neither totally left or right wing …

                    Bill the galactic hero…

                    From memory, his drill sadist used to wear that colour. It was meant to be a mixture between the bright red of arterial blood and the “blue” blood of veins. Actually the blood in veins are also red – a dark red of deoxygenated haemoglobin. Veins just look blue from the outside… But hey it is a just a book.. 😈

                    Of course if KDC starts to transplant large incisors then I’d start worrying what fictional universe he wants to live in.

                    Looking around it appears that this red/blue thing is still a popular myth.
                    http://scienceline.ucsb.edu/getkey.php?key=2927

            • Chooky 3.1.1.1.1.3
              15 January 2014 at 10:35 am

              my 18 year old son is voting for KDC…otherwise he said he wouldn’t vote

              • alwyn …
                15 January 2014 at 12:42 pm

                I knew that reducing the voting age from 21 to 18 was a mistake.
                I fear that your son is proving it.

                • QoT …
                  15 January 2014 at 4:07 pm

                  Because there won’t be hundreds of hipster 25-year-olds voting for KDC. 🙄

                • Chooky …
                  15 January 2014 at 5:15 pm

                  @ alwyn lol…yes he has been called a fuckwit ……but he has the vote so you cant ignore it

                  ….the way of youth is totally different from the way we oldies think…the internet has provided another parallel universe for them …and I am afraid for good or ill it is a revolutionary change

                  imo KDC could mop up a lot of votes from cynical youth who would not otherwise vote

            • BM 3.1.1.1.1.4
              15 January 2014 at 10:38 am

              Suspicious use of purple, same color as the Orcon logo, hmmmm.

              Is the internet party just a advertising gimmick for Orcon?

              • veutoviper …
                15 January 2014 at 10:50 am

                KDC already has a relationship with Orcon – and features on some of their advertising.

                https://t.co/1PrbjUDCCP/large

                Oops, that link doesn’t work. See the link to KDC’s Twitter site in my earlier comment. There is a picture of KDC in an Orcon ad on a bus.

                • BM …
                  15 January 2014 at 10:59 am

                  I know, that’s why I mentioned it.

                  It’s all hypothetical, but Dot com’s a business man first, l reckon, he’d be trying to make as much money out of this political lark as possible.

                  There’s some really dumb gullible mofos out there that hang off his every word, great opportunity for Orcon to gain a heap of new customers and for Dot com to make some coin.

                  • Arthur …
                    15 January 2014 at 11:09 am

                    Like John Key isn’t

                  • phillip ure …
                    15 January 2014 at 2:08 pm

                    bm..

                    ..the picture of a perfectly modern/nervous green…

                    ..heh..!

                    ..and these ‘he’s only in it for the money!’..are laughable..

                    ..d’yareckon he’s jonesing for that opposition party president honorarium..?

                    ..heh..!

                    ..i’m surprised at the amount of irrational/ill-informed hysteria i am seeing here from some..

                    ..if he supports the centre-left..(and no..he won’t support his mortal-enemy key..)

                    ..what is the problem..?..

                    ..and this is not f.p.p…

                    ..so unlike a previous equivalent on the right..jones/nz party..

                    ..under mmp this political-vehicle has the chance of a much longer life than the nz party had..

                    ..so those moaning/bitching had better get used to it..

                    ..or it could be a flash-in-the-pan/this election only..

                    ..but i doubt it..

                    ..there are a lot of people out there who feel un-represented..

                    ..(some 800,000 odd..i believe..)

                    ..with chookys’ sons’ assertion a dotcom party is the only one he will drag himself away from his monitor for..

                    ..surely being a policy-alarm-bell for labour/grns/mana..?

                    ..you’d think..?

                    ..i said it the other day..and i’ll say it again..

                    ..i reckon this will be the first real mmp-election..

                    ..where the policies of the minor and major parties is/will be more to the fore than ever before..

                    ..and those parties that think they will..as in the past..just cruise in/get by..on their traditional ‘brand’..plus a bit of spin..

                    ..are in for a serious/unpleasant shock..

                    ..(and i most certainly include labour in that prescription..

                    ..i see them in more danger than most..

                    ..of seeing their support leach away to parties that are offering not just more of the same..but exciting/innovative/game-changing ‘policies’..

                    ..and with this formal announcement of the dotcom-gig..and that 15,000 sign-up for his opening party party..

                    ..david cunnliffes’ state-of-the-nation speech suddenly swings much more into focus/import)…

                    ..eh..?

                    phillip ure..

    • karol 3.2
      15 January 2014 at 9:19 am

      The politics of partying: Dotcom’s celebrity circuses. Not much about the bread distribution to all.

      • phillip ure 3.2.1
        15 January 2014 at 10:30 am

        @ karol..

        ..no sense of jury out/wait ’till the evidence appears..?

        ..just that rush to judgement..eh..?

        ..i prefer to wait ’till i see the policies..

        ..then..if needed..i’ll pile in..

        ..but really karol..

        ..’judgement-rush’ is how you are coming across on this dotcom-thing..

        ..why the beef..?..(excuse the non-vegan metaphor..)

        phillip ure..

        • karol 3.2.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 11:50 am

          KDC’s values are conveyed by his way of promoting the party – all we see so far is that it’s got his brand on it and it’s about the internet. Little about what his party stands for in all that, other than what we already know about KDC. So I’m not optimistic. Celebrity branding and partying.

          Not even a glimmer of what his party will do for Kiwis in general, other than from what we know of KDC’s focus and interests.

          Edit: and on the basis of just as much (or as little evidence), many on the left are uncritically cheerleading KDC’s party move, which I find worrying

          • Bill 3.2.1.1.1
            15 January 2014 at 12:37 pm

            same thoughts and fears here

          • felix 3.2.1.1.2
            15 January 2014 at 12:38 pm

            Me too karol.

          • kenny 3.2.1.1.3
            15 January 2014 at 1:35 pm

            A move away from the sad-old,same-old, failed policies, maybe? Something new on the horizon?

            • karol 3.2.1.1.3.1
              15 January 2014 at 1:39 pm

              Well, I’m not hopeful about it being anything “new” – just the same old same old “neoliberal” celebrity culture of infotainment led by a libertarian type wanting in on the big time capitalist action – old story, new window dressing – remake for the digital age.

          • phillip ure 3.2.1.1.4
            15 January 2014 at 1:38 pm

            um..!..i’m not ‘cheerleading’ his move..

            ..as i don’t yet know what his policies will be..

            ..depending on them will define the level of any ensuing ‘cheerleading’..

            ..i don’t know..

            ..you don’t know..

            ..this is the only point i am making..

            ..and rushing to judgement..about anything..without the facts..

            ..is both a folly..and not a good look..

            phillip ure..

            • karol 3.2.1.1.4.1
              15 January 2014 at 1:41 pm

              Well, f the Internet Party surprises me I’ll say so. But there are some facts as I’ve laid out, and they don’t give me cause for optimism.

              • veutoviper …
                15 January 2014 at 3:10 pm

                “But there are some facts as I’ve laid out, and they don’t give me cause for optimism.”

                I may be missiing something, Karol, but IMO your comments in this thread at 3.2; 3.2.1.1; and this one seem to be personal opinion/perception – not facts – and based on a lot of assumptions.

                Personally, I am keeping an open mind on the Internet Party until we have actually seen their vision, policies etc, and who else is involved – presumably next week.

                I have followed the KDC saga closely over the last two years – because of the legal and other ramifications rather than as a cheer leader for KDC. But in so doing, I have come to the opinion that KDC may be a very clever businessman/entrepreneur; but also has a softer side to him also. Loves his wife, children, pets dearly; is very loyal to his friends, work colleagues; and can appreciate the simplicity of a beautiful tree in flower etc. Yes, he has done some bad things in the past; but he was (at the time of his application for residency)and has continued to be open about these (although his German convictions were actually ‘clean slated’ under German legislation similar to our own Clean Slate Act).

                As I said, I await fuller details about the Internet Party with an open mind.

                • karol …
                  15 January 2014 at 3:17 pm

                  The facts are in KDC’s past record. They are also in the way the party is named, and what is so far missing – nothing about what the party or KDC will do for NZers, except for his desire for internet “freedom”.

                  Many right wingers have their soft family side – means little.

                  KDC is first and foremost an Entrepreneur – he is out to make money using the Internet – he sees it as an under-utilised platform for business. He is ultimately a capitalist (and very competitive) – and a fairly libertarian one. I have heard nothing from him about being concerned for the plight of the less well off, or of low paid workers, etc.

                  He may be useful to the left in challenging Key and splitting the right wing vote. But he is not of the left.

                  But, whatever, ….my views are not going to influence the outcomes. And time will tell what KDC’s party is really about.

                  • Colonial Viper …
                    15 January 2014 at 5:23 pm

                    Dotcom’s political party is brand new. It’s still very early days and I am guessing that it still has a lot of policy development work to do.

                    But I will bet that it’s political posture will not fall easily into analysis via the traditional Left/Right dimensions.

          • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 3.2.1.1.5
            15 January 2014 at 1:47 pm

            One presumes, being launched by Kim Dotcom, that it will be a “fuck John Key / the government / big business / ties to the USA” party aimed at young people.

            Chance of this hurting National in election year: zero

            Labour and the Greens, on the other hand…

            • phillip ure 3.2.1.1.5.1
              15 January 2014 at 2:16 pm

              you are wrong shg..

              ..dotcom has most appeal to that disenfranchised 800.000 +

              ..and as a centre-left supporter after the outcome..

              ..this will have key/the right worried..

              ..they would be fools if they weren’t..

              phillip ure..

              • karol …
                15 January 2014 at 2:26 pm

                Well WO is claiming Martyn Bradbury is part of the party and will be a candidate – Bradbury is distancing himself somewhat.

                I’d be disappointed if Bradbury moved from supporting Mana (or was it Cunliffe) to the Internet Party.

                But it depends on who else is involved.

                • SHG (not Colonial Viper) …
                  15 January 2014 at 2:36 pm

                  Bradbury just changed his twitter profile image to this:

                  https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_banners/26863166/1375401091/web

                  If you don’t feel like clicking: it’s Bradbury standing at Dotcom’s right hand as Dotcom makes his announcement.

                • SHG (not Colonial Viper) …
                  15 January 2014 at 2:39 pm

                  Bradbury just posted at TDB that he has stood down from his role with Mana.

                  • karol …
                    15 January 2014 at 2:43 pm

                    But that he hasn’t joined the Internet Party – will let us know if/when he does.

                    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) …
                      15 January 2014 at 2:51 pm

                      I for one cannot wait to see whether or not the hairy fat bespectacled white guy joins the hairy fat bespectacled white guy.

                  • veutoviper …
                    15 January 2014 at 2:51 pm

                    How about stating what Bradbury said in full on TDB, and not just one sentence ?

                    What Bradbury said in full (its not long) is;

                    Good old Cameron. Thank you for the publicity.

                    Couple of things.

                    1: I stood down from my role as a consultant with the MANA Party last year.

                    2: What Cameron is showing is an early draft of a proposal tabled at a meeting with a whole bunch of other ideas late last year.

                    3: The idea of me as a candidate was more to kick around ideas.

                    I am a Political consultant, this is what I do, this was a proposal I was asked to submit. The moment I start working for the Internet Party if I am offered a role I will be shouting it from the rooftops as I think the ideas of an Internet Party focused on civil rights in the online 21st Century and the economic prosperity that could generate for NZ is the future and anything that moves us away from a dairy dependent, drill and mine economy is a good thing.

                    But all it was, was a proposal. If that changes, I will let you all know.”

                    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) …
                      15 January 2014 at 2:59 pm

                      Bradbury goes with the highest bidder. Thus he’s busy right now telling us who he’s NOT working for. The moment he tells us he IS working for someone, he’s not worth anything to anyone else. Like a good capitalist he’s just trying to maximise his own asking price.

                      Still, I note that Bradbury sure ain’t posting any pictures of himself standing in support next to Harawira, Cunliffe, or Norman and Turei.

                      PS: oh lol at the leaked document: “Bradbury recommends the party pay him $8000 a month to run a campaign in the Auckland Central electorate.

                      Mr Bradbury also asks for a one-off payment of $5000 to upgrade his computer, cellphone and tablet devices.”

                      http://www.3news.co.nz/Details-leaked-about-Doctoms-Internet-Party/tabid/1607/articleID/328539/Default.aspx

                      SLURP SLURP SLURP

                  • Murray Olsen …
                    15 January 2014 at 6:08 pm

                    Good. Mana will do a lot better without him. I hope they never paid him. A dead moray eel would be too high a payment for the services of the poor man’s Hooten.

                • Murray Olsen …
                  15 January 2014 at 6:04 pm

                  Bomber’s main interest seems to be the media and getting a role for himself. I think he’s a natural fit with Dotcom, much more so than with Mana. I can’t see the Dotcom party doing much good at all, except for in the area of regulation of the internet and maybe the surveillance society. Mana would be much stronger in fighting the surveillance society, because their activists have known for years what it’s like to be watched and persecuted. I think it’s a dangerous distraction, and no, I don’t have to look at their policies to have an opinion, any more than I need to read the ACT manifesto to condemn them.

                  • McFlock …
                    15 January 2014 at 6:16 pm

                    aye, I tend to agree re: bradbury. Loves being the voice of the left, as long as “the left” agrees with whatever he says – so now he’s working for a Banks supporter.

                  • marty mars …
                    15 January 2014 at 6:25 pm

                    + 1 So true Murray – Mana don’t need him and never did – he was never a natural fit there and TIP is much more his cup of tea

                  • karol …
                    15 January 2014 at 7:22 pm

                    Bomber’s main interest seems to be the media and getting a role for himself.

                    heh – 3 News claims the Int Party so far have 3 main policies, including intenet business for NZ and supporting a public broadcasting service – they need to be able to show it will be free from KDC money manipulations.

            • The Al1en 3.2.1.1.5.2
              15 January 2014 at 2:57 pm

              I was right about Bomber all along then!

              http://www.3news.co.nz/Details-leaked-about-Doctoms-Internet-Party/tabid/1607/articleID/328539/Default.aspx

              So the best way, according to 3 news website, that Bomber could help fight against a national third term is to whore himself out for 8,000 a month and a new i rig for a rich prick with a penchant for super cars and shite music, who awaiting extradition on piracy charges, sets up mega, which has dodgy copyright content on it as I type.
              Great way to make a contribution, comrade, by filling your own pocket with dirty money.

              Apart from that, not a lot really.

          • marty mars 3.2.1.1.6
            15 January 2014 at 2:59 pm

            yep I agree too karol – I’m not sure where the votes are going to come from but I can’t imagine many Mana voters are going to jump ship to partyparty.

            edit: bomber is a political consultant – he consults for a crust – good luck to him I say although I do think Mana wasted their money on him.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.1.7
            15 January 2014 at 3:08 pm

            I will wait to see what the policies are before I decide about the party but I am supportive of him actually making a party especially one that looks like it will bring the young into politics.

        • kenny 3.2.1.2
          15 January 2014 at 1:29 pm

          +1

      • Sanctuary 3.2.2
        15 January 2014 at 11:00 am

        People today don’t like being party cannon fodder. If you want someone to do something for you, you have to give them some fun before, during and after. A party that is also a PARTY appeals to people who are turned off by the idea of earnest discussions about Saturday morning (Sunday morning? Are you nuts? I’ve got a hangover/get my only sleep-in on Saturday mornings sayeth the youth of today) leaflet drops by pensioners in drafty halls on a rainy Monday night in July.

      • Bill 3.2.3
        15 January 2014 at 11:02 am

        I kinda foresee nicely dressed up, but really quite nasty right wing tosh oozing out from this. The challenge for left leaning parties is to grasp the opportunity to pull newly ‘engaged’ Dotcommers into a more honest realm of politics. Will they? Doubt it. And so we’ll wind up with a NZ version of that Italian guy whose name escapes me or a NZ version of the Pirate Party. Not good.

        • miravox 3.2.3.1
          16 January 2014 at 3:23 am

          +1 Bill, The political interest it will generate is to be welcomed. But in the long run I can only see it hurting the left unless they re-engage with the public in a meaningful way.

  4. Adrian 4
    15 January 2014 at 7:48 am

    And a computer is still a keyboard and a screen, and if cars shit themselves as often as computers and needed ” upgrading” as often, car companies would have been sued out of existance.

    • lprent 4.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:57 am

      a computer is still a keyboard and a screen

      There is a teeny bit more than that in them. But typically the failure components are hard disks and on the printed circuit boards (PCB)

      PCBs have a few orders of magnitude more components than the entirety of any production car and are made up of hot or warm components that are densely packed and typically react to each other and their environment. Selecting the right motherboard and case for cooling, maintaining and replacing them for your task makes a hell of difference. Just as it does with a car. Which is why my motherboards typically last until I *upgrade* them – usually about every 5 years. I just replaced the one in my workstation that I brought in 2009.

      Hard disks typically operate at sustained movement speeds far in excess of any car apart from Formula one racing cars – which seldom last a year. The best way to think about them is that they are a consumable like brake pads or tyres. You should expect to replace them every few years and build that into your maintenance schedule.

      I suspect that you’re mostly complaining about portable computers and handhelds.

      Yes it is possible to get longer lasting laptops – for instance a Toughbook. Paying for them is a completely different matter.

      The last laptop I brought was in 2009, a sony vaio Z series. It is still happily running and in daily use. My partners old laptops from the last two decades used to litter the household until we disposed on them on moving into less storage space. None of them ever died, they just got new hard disks. Of course these were all rather expensive apples..

      I suspect that you’re getting what you pay for.

      • Naturesong 4.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 12:12 pm

        Standardisation of components also makes a big difference in enabling rapid development and reducing cost. You don’t see this with cars, apart from obvious things like wheels, tyres etc.
        You can’t just grab any old gearbox off the shelf and whack it in your car.

        I had hoped one day to see someone start a project for an open source (and open standards) car design. However given that car manufacturing is now a sunset industry (or will be soon) it’s probably not worth doing.

    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 4.2
      15 January 2014 at 2:08 pm

      cars shit themselves as often as computers and needed ” upgrading” as often

      You should stop buying shit computers then. My cars need far more attention than my computers.

  5. Saarbo 5
    15 January 2014 at 7:52 am

    Eric Roy is the 9th National Party Caucus member to resign at the end of this term. Colin James and Michelle Boag (on RNZ this morning) reckon that these people are being tapped on the shoulder to f.o. I reckon the National Party cant be a happy camp at the moment, but it is a very corporate way of running things, interesting.

    • cricklewood 5.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:02 am

      It’s a good thing really I could name several high profile labour mp’s that should have been ‘shoulder tapped’ years ago.
      I doubt things are too unhappy i’m sure most of them will wash up with a few cushy board positions or similar…

      • Paul 5.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 8:22 am

        That’s the problem. Labour don’t have the corporate jobs to bribe their MOs with to leave.
        Anyway, if Labour don’t get rid of their neoliberal rump they are toast.
        There are far too many timid or compromised people in the party.

        • Saarbo 5.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 8:35 am

          Yes. Labour is much more democratic though, im not convinced that the National’s Corporate approach is the right way, it might get rid of the deadwood but it also has its downsides. It does lead to a lot to people conforming to what the leader wants, so a lot of sucking up…but I still reckon that it is probably a much unhappier party than what is been let on.

        • jcuknz 5.1.1.2
          15 January 2014 at 9:07 am

          I gather that most Labour MPs simply do not have the workskills to perform in the real world outside of Parliament.

          • greywarbler 5.1.1.2.1
            15 January 2014 at 11:46 am

            If you did jcuknz you wouldn’t be on the blog so much as aRWNJ. After all there is no money in it for you, is there? Or are you too old to be a judge? (shades of Cook and Moore.)

          • Draco T Bastard 5.1.1.2.2
            15 January 2014 at 3:37 pm

            jcuknz, I gather that you’re talking out your arse.

        • greywarbler 5.1.1.3
          15 January 2014 at 11:44 am

          Paul
          +1 National is showing the way. Labour get to work.

    • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 5.2
      15 January 2014 at 2:48 pm

      It’s called rejuvenation. Look for more long-serving MPs to retire as National positions itself as a future-facing party in election year.

      And on the other side of the political spectrum, we have the party going to the election with David Cunliffe, Phil Goff, Annette King, and Trevor Mallard. All Clark-era Cabinet ministers.

      For bonus dotage: Mallard and King entered Parliament in the election that ousted Rob Muldoon.

      But wait there’s more: Goff has been an MP since the election that ousted BILL ROWLING.

  6. Morrissey 6
    15 January 2014 at 8:01 am

    We are all Palestinians by JOHN MINTO [deleted]

    Plenty of sickening things happen every day but one of the worst this week has been the singing of Ariel Sharon’s praises at his funeral by Israeli politicians and an assortment of international butchers and war criminals such as former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. Our own Minister of Foreign Affairs Murray McCully was marginally less cringe-worthy saying Sharon had acted out of love of his country but at least acknowledged Sharon as “controversial” – a euphemism for “bloody butcher” in this case.

    [deleted]

    Sharon was one of the most vicious and gruesome political leaders from the 20th century.

    – See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/01/15/we-are-all-palestinians/#sthash.8duMXuCK.dpuf

    [lprent: The quoting was excessive – relevant quoted *teasers* yes – not a copied page and a half. Opinion from yourself is what I’d usually expect as the main teaser anyway. Don’t make me have to do this work again. See the policy on cut’n’paste.

    BTW and before you ask: The only reason that Penny Bright gets away with her massive screeds is because I can’t find them on google. Probably means that wherever else they are published has crappy search engine optimisation. BLip’s lists are original. ]

  7. phillip ure 7
    15 January 2014 at 8:02 am

    (why aren’t we screaming from the rooftops about this one.)

    http://whoar.co.nz/2014/dude-wheres-my-north-sea-oil-money-ed-hey-guess-what-funny-story-if-oil-is-found-off-the-nz-coast-we-are-going-to-be-screwed-by-the-oil-companies-just-as-the-british-were/

    (excerpt:..)

    “..For a few years – the UK enjoyed a once-in-a-lifetime windfall –

    – only – unlike the Norwegians –

    – we’ve got almost nothing to show for it..”

    (cont..)

    ..(ed:..now..if we don’t take this as a cautionary-tale..a ‘whoop-whoop..!..pull-up!-moment..

    ..then we have sawdust between our ears..

    ..’cos this govt..using super-negotiator/hard-man browning..

    ..signed off on one of the most pathetically low oil rates..in the world..

    ..so..like britain..if a gusher is found..

    ..these clowns that rule over us..

    ..have guaranteed that – like britain..

    ..we will be screwed over by the oil-companies..

    ..all the profits will flow offshore..

    ..directly to them..

    ..and we will get s.f.a..

    ..and if a political party doesn’t seize on this populist-hand-grenade as an election-issue..

    ..well they all also have sawdust between their ears..

    ..and don’t believe nathan ‘clutch cargo’ guy when he bangs on about how wonderful it will be..

    ..and when he throws out actual figures/amounts..

    ..be aware they have been massaged so much..

    ..they are black and blue from the bruises..

    ..and they added in the gst on the packet of gum the courier driver bought on his way to this oil-field nirvana..

    ..to deliver a package..

    ..it is all just a cover-up to conceal their traitorous sell-out of our interests as a country..”

    (cont..)

    phillip ure…

    • Paul 7.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:23 am

      This government is working for foreign corporate interests.
      Simple.

      • Jan 7.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 8:40 am

        Absolutely, and as long as they stay in power, the more irreversible damage they will do

        • Paul 7.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 9:15 am

          And if Labour retain their neo-liberal hue, nothing will change.
          Just three examples off the bat:Goff supports the TPP and Jones supports off shore drilling and Labour MPs take gifts from Sky City
          It’ll just be a slower death for workers’ rights in NZ and, more dangerously, more disaffected voters. The UK already suffers from this fact as there is no party there you can vote for that challenges neo-liberal economics.

    • jcuknz 7.2
      15 January 2014 at 9:11 am

      I doubt if Labour would be doing anything different so I would crit the politicians not just the current government.

      • phillip ure 7.2.1
        15 January 2014 at 9:29 am

        @ jcunz..

        ..i agree..labour cannot preach on this..

        ..as they are guilty of the same..(they showed the oil companies how easy we are to negotiate out the door..

        ..they set the bar so low you get back-strain reaching for it..

        ..the greens cannot..lest they be seen to have accepted drilling as a fait-accomplit..

        ..so i see this as yet another populist issue dotcom can ride to parliament..

        ..(and,,ahem..!..the negotiating-stance i wd go for..is..

        ..if oil is found..the state gets 50% of the gusher…

        ..that’s the deal..

        ..take it or leave it..

        ..50%..or nothing…)

        phillip ure..

        • Draco T Bastard 7.2.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 3:53 pm

          (and,,ahem..!..the negotiating-stance i wd go for..is..

          ..if oil is found..the state gets 50% of the gusher…

          ..that’s the deal..

          ..take it or leave it..

          ..50%..or nothing…)

          Bad move. Rescind the license completely and then set it up so that the drilling is either done directly by the government or under contract to the government for a fixed price. The government would own all of the oil/gas.

          And do that with all the mining and resource extraction in the country.

      • Paul 7.2.2
        15 January 2014 at 9:30 am

        Labour were infiltrated in the 80s by the neo-liberal virus.
        Looks like the grassroots are trying to purge the party of this disease, but it’s hard work to oust these 5th columnists out of their comfortable rotten boroughs.

        • greywarbler 7.2.2.1
          15 January 2014 at 11:50 am

          Paul
          Interesting you use that rotten boroughs term. That came to my mind as a comparison a while ago when thinking of what is happening here.

      • KJT 7.2.3
        15 January 2014 at 10:23 am

        Another reason why we need Democracy instead of our blind faith in the loons in power.

    • newsense 7.3
      15 January 2014 at 6:27 pm

      this seemed fairly familiar:

      So where did our billions go? Hawksworth writes: “The logical answer is that the oil money enabled non-oil taxes to be kept lower.” In other words: tax cuts. When the North Sea was providing maximum income, Thatcher’s chancellor, Nigel Lawson slashed income and other direct taxes, especially for the rich. The top rate of tax came down from 60p in the pound to just 40p by 1988. He also reduced the basic rate of income tax; but the poor wouldn’t have seen much of those pounds in their pockets, as, thanks to the Tories, they were paying more VAT.

  8. Rosie 8
    15 January 2014 at 8:45 am

    Where is Rogue Trooper these days?

    • Chooky 8.1
      15 January 2014 at 8:54 am

      Yes where is he?…and Rhinocrates?….Maybe they are sunning themselves on a tropical island just listening to the lap of the waves….. and hoping that there wont be a cyclone…..

      [lprent: Resting apparently. See http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-31122013/#comment-751547
      Rhinocrates has been around. ]

      • freedom 8.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 9:38 am

        Rhinocrates was around yesterday, but Rogue?

        • Rosie 8.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 9:52 am

          Yes, I’ve been reading Rhinocrates – and you too, Freedom by the way. I enjoyed your see saw metaphor for FFP vs. MMP. I support what you said.

          Often I don’t have the time or the energy to reply to topics raised here at TS but I do read the majority of articles. Always thought provoking stuff.

          I do miss Roguey’s unique style.

      • greywarbler 8.1.2
        15 January 2014 at 11:54 am

        If one follows the link lprent put up there is some good links I think, though I haven;t caught up yet. Frankly I will always be running behind with the shovel as I think lots of the best stuff gets dropped unnoticed.

  9. Let's Boogie 9
    15 January 2014 at 8:50 am

    On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber. (Author of Debt: The First 5000 Years)

    http://www.strikemag.org/bullshit-jobs/

  10. Morrissey 10
    15 January 2014 at 9:13 am

    Lookalike

    Surely this writer, i.e., moi, is not the first to notice the uncanny similarity of these two notorious right wing gentlemen….

    NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE….
    http://www.fijisun.com.fj/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Cameron-Slater.gif

    CAMERON “WHALEOIL” SLATER….
    http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/Chris-Christie.jpg

  11. jcuknz 11
    15 January 2014 at 9:24 am

    People who fight to establish a country are terrorists who become honoured citizens when they succeed in their endeavours. War, official or not, is a horrible and nasty business [irrespective of if you are the respected winner or the despised looser] and Arik succeeded but with age apparently became more sensible and tolerant of what is likely to succeed in the longterm.
    As a man of his times and his situation he should be respected rather than reviled. But the past eight years illustrates the foolishness of quantity versus quality as practiced by the medical profession with the support of the rest of us.

    • phillip ure 11.1
      15 January 2014 at 9:36 am

      @ jcunz..

      ..pigs-arse..!

      ..he was a war-criminal who butchered unarmed/defenceless women and children..in a palestinian refugee camp..

      ..he deserves all the reviling he gets..

      phillip ure..

    • Morrissey 11.2
      15 January 2014 at 10:38 am

      What you say does make some sense. Sharon—or “Arik” as he was known to his friends and to hapless political makeweights like Joe “Kinnock” Biden—was a war criminal, and at his his funeral he was eulogized by war criminals. But he is not some monster who was running out of control; he was a faithful servant of a criminal, scofflaw regime. Nothing more, nothing less.

    • Naturesong 11.3
      15 January 2014 at 12:47 pm

      I was working in Palestine when Ariel Sharon rocked up to the Temple of the Mount with armed soldiers in tow, a few months out from the election.
      Rioting ensued. So began the second intifada.
      Sharon then rode the subsequent tide of racist nationalism to win the election

      Most Israelis I spoke to at the time were disgusted that he would forment violence simply to stoke the fears of the Israeli populace. Several mentioned that he should be tried as a war criminal for his role in the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Even more believed he should have been court marshalled for disobeying Golda Meir during the Yom Kippur War which led the the deaths of many of the soldiers under his command (and Golda Meirs resignation).

      His career should have ended in a court marshall in 1973. Or at the very least in the Hague after 1982.

  12. One Anonymous Knucklehead 12
    15 January 2014 at 10:39 am

    Weak as piss from the Labour party.

    “Labour corrections spokeswoman Jacinda Ardern said [SERCO} should lose its contract to run Mt Eden.”

    What was wrong with saying: “The next Labour-led government will cancel all contracts and/or close all private prisons. SERCO investors take note: you will lose 100% of your investment every single time you interfere in New Zealand penal policy”?

    There are ways to Tory proof this country. Compulsory return of public property without compensation is a tool that needs to come out of the shed more often.

  13. Morrissey 13
    15 January 2014 at 10:53 am

    Noam Chomsky: Sabra & Shatila massacre recalls worst Jewish Pogroms

    We look at one of the most shocking incidents in the career of the late former Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon: the Sabra and Shatila massacre. Up to 2,000 Palestinians died on Sept. 16-17, 1982, when the Israeli military allowed a Christian militia to attack the camp. Then-Defense Minister Ariel Sharon was forced to resign after a special Israeli investigative panel declared him to be “personally responsible” for the massacre. We air a description of the killings by Ellen Siegel, a Jewish-American nurse who was working at Gaza Hospital at the Sabra camp at the time of the attacks, and speak with Rashid Khalidi, Edward Said Professor of Arab Studies at Columbia University, and Noam Chomsky, world-renowned political dissident, linguist, author and Institute Professor Emeritus at Massachusetts Institute of Technology….

    http://www.democracynow.org/2014/1/13/noam_chomsky_sabra_shatila_massacre_that

  14. greywarbler 14
    15 January 2014 at 11:27 am

    A couple of thoughts.
    Apparently there is a lowering crime rate, yet it is a time of increased deprivation of many.

    A possible flow on from increased deprivation. Thomas Belmonte in his sociological study of the very poor people of Naples , in his book The Broken Fountain noted that the police were kept away from this area. Their presence usually meant more problems, no-one would want to give them information because of peer pressure and because it drew them personally to police attention. To live they reverted to stealing, it was endemic. The children were adept at getting into car boots of cars stopped at intersections. They might be as adept at climbing as monkeys. The author when new to the area, turned in his room, and found a young boy who had scaled the balcony to the first floor to check him out. They stole from each other, the family possibly, their friends and neighbours, probably. The Catholic church was their first port of call when having difficulties. A cosa nostra scenario really.

    So if people are likely to be questioned about their own life if they report a crime, they will think twice. And it has to be serious, to be reported. To people in these conditions, the police are not an option. Police are sometimes unfriendly but fair, sometimes not, always a complication. Community building and support are needed to overcome this in NZ and help with the young delinquents on diversion properly handled could be the best option. That is until, or if, the government sets in place an economy that allows people to strive and to better themselves, and gives them plenty of inexpensive opportunities.

    Another thought.
    The present parliamentary system is no better than committees I’ve been on for community organisations. A new committee comes in,. and proceeds to overturn decisions made previously that people spent time thinking and arguing and deciding on, and which are of benefit. A new group has a better idea and considers itself automatically better than the past, particularly if as is common in community organisations that don’t have rich patrons or funding, they are just cranking along doing some good.

    The government can overturn good policies of the past. To avoid this, there has to be a burst of energy against it. The whole thing can be re argued. There is no cause to do this unless the thing is fundamentally wrong and is likely to be so because of the lack of checks in the system.

    It seems to me that there should be a stay on change, though new legislation should go ahead in its processes. There should be panels of people who can put their names forward and are drawn like a jury at random. The lists would be of people who would have passed a test of basic knowledge about the country and its economy and political system. This would result in a highly ordered random selection of people being drawn from say five strata to get a range of backgrounds.

    The process of making decisions about changes or new legislation should have a checklist of questions about the cost, the value added, who needs it and why, who doesn’t think they need it and why, the likelihood of unintended consequences, whether it is just a deterrent, an example of a small step to change societal attitudes – and there must be a consideration of under 100 words for each check, and all to be filled in and collated and published. This would slow down legislation immensely, but a lot of what is passed now is repairing badly prepared stuff, or puts new bad law that has immediate advantage to a small group in, later to be mourned by those picking up the pieces. It would cut down on externalities being greatly resorted to, as less could be blithely passed over by the irresponsible.

    • Draco T Bastard 14.1
      15 January 2014 at 4:46 pm

      Or we could just go to referenda rather than looking for a new set of people to put up on pedestals.

    • Flip 14.2
      16 January 2014 at 12:56 am

      I like the thoughts. A more ‘informed participatory democracy’ getting a wider range of views, experience and knowledge. It would reduce the influence of well funded individuals, politicians, narrow minded civil servants, ideologists, vested interests and lobbyists. I’m of the view that too much power is vested in too few people.

  15. captain hook 15
    15 January 2014 at 11:30 am

    who read the angry pro-smacking tirade in the dompost this a.m.by one of Craigs acolytes.
    people like this should not be allowed to have children in the first place.

  16. Paul 16
    15 January 2014 at 12:16 pm

    The media is definitely doing a beat up on Colin Craig so far this year. It’s amazing how money can get you some much media space.
    Why? The Tories are definitely trying to bait the NZ electorate on this one, as it represents their best hope of power in 2014.
    I suggest that editors at newspapers and producers at TV and radio stations are being told to include this as content as much as possible. It’s a bit like having a playlist at a bad music radio station. You get no independence to select your own tracks. The owners of this country tell the media what to play.

    • freedom 16.1
      15 January 2014 at 12:28 pm

      “The media is definitely doing a beat up on Colin Craig so far this year”
      you are missing what is really going on Paul
      It is an election year and the Nat supporters who want even more hate to flood NZ need to be told where they can safely vote without scaring the pollsters too much

    • phillip ure 16.2
      15 January 2014 at 2:48 pm

      “..The owners of this country tell the media what to play.”

      aye..

      ..the most recent odious example of this was the advertorial penned by the head of the bankers’ cartel..

      ..posing as an opinion-piece on stuff..

      ..and the kicker..?

      ..it was headlined on that site..

      ..for a week..

      phillip ure..

    • bad12 17.1
      15 January 2014 at 1:16 pm

      Brendon Who???, ah what choices for the people of Tauranga, (1) do they vote for the bloke who if watched closely when under pressure shows clear signs of being in possession of a serious disease of the mind, or (2), cast one for the bloke what can switch on and off at will a smile of such radiance that the sun pales into insignificance, said smile all the while never quite being translated through the eyes making one wonder if He who bestows such has an axe concealed somewhere about their person…

      • phillip ure 17.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 3:40 pm

        i think note should be made that horan has been officially cleared of all the allegations made against him..

        ..there was no wrongdoing in his handling of his mothers’ estate/assets..

        ..and given all the shit that was thrown at him around that..(by me too..)

        ..i think fair-justice be that the clearing of his name is widely broadcast..

        ..and peters deserves a premature-ejaculation-award..

        ..for throwing horan out of his party..

        ..based purely on allegations..

        ..peters comes out of this looking the worst..

        phillip ure..

        • bad12 17.1.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 4:37 pm

          Phillip Ure, raking the ashes of what is past, tell me something, as a leftist what use do you see of a NZFirst Party that could just as easily decide to prop up a National Government as a Government of the left,

          Now tell me something, Winston cannot carry on forever,(unless He has found some substance the rest of us have so far missed), so who of the 2011 intake of NZFirst could have possibly kept the NZFirst Party alive after Winston,

          Who in that Party had an ounce of the charisma, the mana if you will to be able to carry that Party forward after Winston,

          Brendon Who??? don’t be such a soft mug Phillip, this is the long game of politics and the knee-capping of Brendon Who is simply a small move in the game,

          i don’t think you will find me having commented on Brendon Who’s honesty at any point, simply because as i insinuate that wasn’t the point…

  18. karol 18
    15 January 2014 at 1:18 pm

    And so goes Sky City – multinational investment mamangement company slowly growing their slice of the shares.

    The world’s biggest investor has taken a 5 per cent stake in casino operator SkyCity, worth more than $111 million.

    New York-listed BlackRock is an asset management leviathan, with more than US$4 trillion (NZD$4.8t) of funds under management.

    • bad12 18.1
      15 January 2014 at 1:33 pm

      The joys of US ‘quantitative easing’ washing across the borders into New Zealand perhaps, meanwhile back in the jungle as the US leviathans flash the cash the US congress is hell bent on slashing it in the form of cancelling unemployment benefits for 100’s of thousands in the US still suffering from the unemployment brought about the Global Financial Crisis,

      The hypocrisy of this which cannot escape any of us except perhaps the most hardened of wing-nuts…

  19. amirite 19
    15 January 2014 at 1:50 pm

    So we keep hearing how business confidence in NZ has hit an all time high.
    After mass sacking of workers, slashing of workers’ rights and pay, after total dis-empowering of unions, after blackmailing workers into submission by threatening them with job losses, and making massive profits which are being distributed only among the management, with the help and support by a compliant government, no wonder the business confidence is so high.

    • karol 19.1
      15 January 2014 at 1:57 pm

      Yes, the celebrating of business confidence implies that we all benefit. In fact, things like the GFC are exploited by the coporate plutocracy, so that, when there is a recovery, wages are lower, jobs more preacarious, and workers’ rights have been further whittled away.

  20. amirite 20
    15 January 2014 at 1:57 pm

    Also, why do people so hate Martyn Bradbury? I don’t know the man at all apart from what he writes in his blogs, so more insight would be helpful.
    He’s apparently joined Kim Dotcom’s party. WTF?

    • Naki Man 20.1
      15 January 2014 at 2:23 pm

      Yes he is working for Krim.con and the Mana party.

      • One Anonymous Knucklehead 20.1.1
        15 January 2014 at 2:50 pm

        You know the extradition case is in tatters, don’t you Funi Man? The evidence the police presented proven false, the warrant illegal, the provision of access to sealed court evidence to unauthorised foreign nationals, do you think all those things have just sort of gone away now they aren’t in the media so much?

        What sort of weight do you suppose the court will give to this sad litany when considering its decision? Do you suppose it will affect the degree of trust the court is prepared to invest in the rest of the Yankee request much?

        Clearly you are of the sort that believes the accused are always guilty whether proven innocent or not, and your opinion is utterly irrelevant, but I care, Funi Man. I’m looking forward to your chagrin 🙂

    • karol 20.2
      15 January 2014 at 2:34 pm

      Source WO. Bradbury was a consultant to the internet Party early on. Ditto Graeme Edgeler. Trotter as alleged cheerleader.+

      I don’t hate Bradbury. Sometimes I totally agree with his comments/analysis. Sometimes I think he’s not a very in-depth thinker. He also can be a bit contradictory. He’s a good publicist – can use the media quite well.

      Some find him too opinionated and too focused on his own publicity.

      • Arfamo 20.2.1
        15 January 2014 at 2:46 pm

        Yup. Can’t see KDC and Bradbury being a comfortable mix for long.

        • karol 20.2.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 2:49 pm

          Interesting though. WO has scored a bit of an own goal with this. He’s added to the Internet Party publicity, and aligned it with the left.

          • Arfamo 20.2.1.1.1
            15 January 2014 at 2:57 pm

            The only thing I like about KDC is the way he makes John Key squirm on the end of his bayonet. Millionaire vs Millionaire battle just another gormless media distraction really.

          • SHG (not Colonial Viper) 20.2.1.1.2
            15 January 2014 at 3:48 pm

            Own goal? Seems like he’s handled it perfectly.

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 20.2.1.2
          15 January 2014 at 2:59 pm

          I don’t know, Arfarmo. I can’t see them treading on one anothers’ toes that much. Dotcom wants to be a celebrity billionaire, not a politician.

          • Arfamo 20.2.1.2.1
            15 January 2014 at 3:03 pm

            I’ve concluded Bomber’s much the same. Their supporters will each claim their hearts are in the right place. But their egos will clash I reckon.

  21. Brett Dale 21
    15 January 2014 at 2:58 pm

    There is not a chance in hell that dot com gets 5% of the party vote.

    What a waste of his money and his supporters time.

    • Arfamo 21.1
      15 January 2014 at 3:00 pm

      He’s a capitalist. He knows that’s what they’re there for. Big fun.

    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 21.2
      15 January 2014 at 3:03 pm

      A lot of people are pissed off about being spied on, Brett. I’m struggling to seeing him make 5%, but the New Zealand Party…

      • Brett Dale 21.2.1
        15 January 2014 at 5:04 pm

        Knucklehead:

        He wont get 5% though, and do his supporters really think this guy actually has their best
        interests at heart?

        • One Anonymous Knucklehead 21.2.1.1
          15 January 2014 at 5:31 pm

          Says you. As for NZ interests, I note he is funding a political party and has apparently hired (or at least called for expressions of interest from) some quite serious players to run it.

          The last time someone tried something of this nature, The New Zealand Party got 12% of the vote.

          I won’t be surprised if he fails, but I won’t be surprised if he doesn’t.

        • QoT 21.2.1.2
          15 January 2014 at 8:03 pm

          do his supporters really think this guy actually has their best
          interests at heart?

          If they didn’t they probably wouldn’t be supporters. #logic

        • felix 21.2.1.3
          15 January 2014 at 11:59 pm

          “do his supporters really think this guy actually has their best
          interests at heart?”

          Dunno. Do John Key’s supporters?

      • Draco T Bastard 21.2.2
        15 January 2014 at 5:14 pm

        I’m struggling to seeing him make 5%, but the New Zealand Party…

        I’m not. The Greens got 6.8% in their first election. Act got 6.9% in their first election.

        I see it as highly probably that, in their first election, The Internet Party will get over 5%. The question is if they will be able to maintain that. Act hasn’t but The Greens are going strong.

    • phillip ure 21.3
      15 January 2014 at 3:45 pm

      so..brett..are you so sure of yr claim..

      ..that you will do a keith locke..?

      ..and walk naked down a main thoroughfare naked..

      ..if you are wrong..?

      phillip ure..

      • Brett Dale 21.3.1
        15 January 2014 at 5:07 pm

        Phillip:

        I think its best for all concern that I keep my clothes on.

        Secondly again he wont get near 5%.

        Thirdly I find it beyond belief that there are kiwis who think Kim dotcom actually cares about
        them.

        He will end up doing what that Irish gimp did.

  22. bad12 22
    15 January 2014 at 3:41 pm

    Nice little ‘jolt’ felt in Wellington just now, maybe 2.5-3 on the rickety scale, a minor isolated movement or more from the series shaking the top of the South???…

  23. hellonearthis 23
    15 January 2014 at 5:44 pm

    It doesn’t add up. Looking at the numbers from the msd site, the $10.3 billion decrease doesn’t add up to the figures on the site. It only shows $7.3 billion. There was $1.5B was added that was a methodology correction to the 2012 liability figures. So it should have been $8.8 billion. But that’s still $1.5 billion more than the numbers published on the MSD site.
    http://www.msd.govt.nz/about-msd-and-our-work/newsroom/media-releases/2014/taylor-fry-welfare-valuation.html

    Most of the savings was due to cheaper service rates $3.0 billion.
    While only $180 million was due to lower than expected benefit payments.

    Take this from the msd site,
    —
    The June 2012 total liability was $86.8 billion, compared with the June 2013 liability of $76.5 billion.
    —
    That’s there $10.3 billion figure. But in the notes at the bottom of the page is this,
    —
    [ii] The starting liability at 30 June 2012 was reduced to $85.3 billion due to methodology correction.
    —
    Oh look, there’s $1.5 Billion they are still counting even though they had corrected the figure due to methodology. Can’t trust there numbers if they make such a simple error

  24. Colonial Viper 24
    15 January 2014 at 6:11 pm

    I just noticed on zerohedge.com that the benchmark Baltic Dry shipping indexing is collapsing at historic rates. That implies massive dry bulk carrying over capacity on 23 of the world’s major trade routes.

    I don’t think that the global real economy is going to do any good this year, at all.

    • Draco T Bastard 24.1
      15 January 2014 at 7:12 pm

      That was mentioned in a article I read a year or two back on shipping. The article mentioned that there was an awful lot carrying capacity coming on line in the next year or two and that competition would drive prices for shipping to below cost.

  25. newsense 25
    15 January 2014 at 6:31 pm

    Haven’t noticed any pictures or mentions about David Cunliffe on holiday with his family etc etc…Key’s boys been getting high fives from Obama on the golf course in Hawaii…absolute elitism but also very hard to attack as that…

  26. philj 26
    15 January 2014 at 8:31 pm

    hmmmm? CCC or KDC? What interesting times we live in! I suppose it should come as no surprise that we see a plethora of minor parties applying for the tail role of, not just wagging the dog, but potentially choosing the pooch to be promenaded by. Fun and doo doors ahead folks. Keep shoveling and smile!

  27. Herodotus 27
    15 January 2014 at 8:35 pm

    It costs a lot to live in Auckland, and the reason is ?….
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11185768
    Auckland Tourism Events and Economic Development tourism manager Jason Hill said the city billed itself as a top-quality holiday spot.
    “Auckland doesn’t profess to be a budget destination, but delivers on other aspects of visitor experiences and consistently ranks highly as a desirable place to visit,” he said.

    How about those of us who reside perminately within Auckland and are captured within this low wage economy ? Perhaps as a cup of coffee, a beer , dinner our are so expensive, then those working within the industry could expect to see an uplift in their wages, at least there in no reason for working conditions to be attacked!!
    http://www.sfwu.org.nz
    Common sense and logic fail as to why it is soooo costly to live within New Zealand. Perhaps it is all that money bring exported out as dividends in the banking sector:-)

  28. NZ Femme 28
    15 January 2014 at 8:49 pm

    Hey Dunedin Standardista’s, is the Off The Pages meet up still happening on Saturday?

    http://thestandard.org.nz/off-the-pages/

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