The Right Conservatives

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1. Redbaiter 1

   27 November 2013 at 3:36 pm

   Great to see a reasonably measured assessment. Quite a change from the knee jerk criticism that is usually seen.

   The Conservatives are the best place to put your vote if your annoyed by National’s slide to the left on social issues. John Key and his arrogant prog clique thought they had the Conservative vote sown up before Craig came along.

   They are suddenly realising that pissing off their core support for the sake of a few vocal progs in the Young Nats and other places (people who should really be in the Labour Party) may not be such a good idea.

   The Conservative Party as a protest vote against progressive National is an option I think a lot of people find attractive.

   [lprent: People who wish to speculate on what symbol that RB has screwed up on this time must to do it in OpenMike. Bad enough reading it last time. 😈 ]
   • Tiger Mountain 1.1

     27 November 2013 at 4:25 pm

     Attractive to a lot of people Rod Beater? Certainly Mr Craig being somewhat of a moneybags has gained exposure, but really without his loot he would still be in sunday school somewhere. It has come to the US scenario now in this country, you need a blind trust and or to be a personal millionaire–preferably a squillionaire– if you are a tory, to make a decent tilt at parliament.
     • Natwest 1.1.1

       28 November 2013 at 10:54 am

       Or perhaps the Union movements dosh!
     • Robert M 1.1.2

       5 December 2013 at 3:23 pm

       If you look at the average income/salary of most New Zealanders, only in Wellington does the average worker have an income that could support any sort of lifestyle or family and apartment costs in Wellington are the highest in the country.
       In comparison the Middle Class in the US, UK., Aus, Germany, France, Scandinavia and Benelux are better off than ever mainly due to lower or no inheritence taxes and lower government expenditure. My definition of a middle class person – is they get most of their income not from working but from shares, investment, business ownership or trusts. I would define upper class as 100 million > individual wealth. Craig simply represents entry level wealth for politics or independence in the US and some other nations.
       Some of craigs views I support, nb that gays choose their sexual orientation as does anybody else, or that sex is determined by social life and possiblity not genes, that feminism is largely a lie and thirdly that military spending needs to be inceased and social spending decreased. I dont agree with his general conservative support of lifetime marriage.
   • gobsmacked 1.2

     27 November 2013 at 4:57 pm

     A new party is always all things to all people.

     If the party pleases Redbaiter, it is doomed among swing voters. The OP suggests that the party can be left (on asset sales, foreign ownership, TPP), and right. It can get votes from people who rail against the nanny state, while Colin “nanny” Craig wants to double the tax on alcohol.

     It is a mass of contradictions, but as yet they are not well known. It will either implode before the election or after. For the sake of democracy, let’s hope it’s before. Voters don’t need yet another betrayal.
   • Rodel 1.3

     27 November 2013 at 9:44 pm

     Measured yes (whatever that means) but somewhat less hagiographic than the one about ‘Hurricane Brash’ some years ago.
     Colin is presented as a tasty, Palin like morsel…but he’d be devoured by Winstons, Hones and Davids in parliament.
     Stephen Sackur and Colin Craig would be good entertainment for 5 minutes but I think Fox would be his preference.
2. Tracey 2

   27 November 2013 at 3:42 pm

   Does the guest poster have any political affiliation with craigs party or involved with work with craig or the party on a paid or unpaid basis.
   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     27 November 2013 at 3:46 pm

     Questions worth answering but apparently the author has decided that he could not support Craig or the Conservatives due to a clash of values and objectives.
   • lprent 2.2

     27 November 2013 at 4:09 pm

     I believe it is just NZ. Everyone knows someone else and we all know almost everyone.
3. Tracey 3

   27 November 2013 at 3:46 pm

   I understand he was a member for a year.

   my concern is that like united future they are hiding their religious zealot side from the public but slipping them in on their list. Given the number on candidates they had in local body elections have they a list yet with detailed biographies
   • X 3.1

     27 November 2013 at 5:59 pm

     Guest Poster here.

     No current affiliation with the conservative party. I made a point of getting removed from the membership even though I really wanted to be involved do something sensible for the future. I knew Colin well enough to consider him a personal friend but we have gone our separate ways for the last 20 years where I’ve probably talked/emailed him maybe 5 times.

     If you want check out the conservative web site and find out who is involved. http://www.conservativeparty.org.nz/ Religious zealots exist and they can and do vote unless they are closed brethren.

     The Conservatives believe in democracy so as I indicated they are building a grassroot organisation of people who want to take back their democracy make it less representational and more citizen based.
     It is not a one man band at all and he is too canny a leader to make it about himself even if his critics try too. As I said Colin is charismatic and a decent guy something cynics might find hard to believe exists.
     I could well have over estimated the parties influence but I went to a packed regional meeting (est 250 people) just before the last election after they had been in the race for two weeks. They will have had 3 more years next time around and they have not been idle. Their influence might be partly because of Colin’s money but they are also saying stuff that resonates. It may well resonate badly with the left and liberals but it will sound good to lots.
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.1

       27 November 2013 at 9:52 pm

       Thanks for writing your post.
       • X 3.1.1.1

         28 November 2013 at 8:34 am

         Your welcome, I’m enjoying the debate which is clarifying things. I thought it worthwhile informing the left. I’ve always been a closet lefty but I’m coming out, so to speak.
         • Tracey 3.1.1.1.1

           5 December 2013 at 3:37 pm

           Do you think they might make inroads into National’s rural vote?
     • Colonial Viper 3.1.2

       27 November 2013 at 9:54 pm

       Thanks for contributing your post.
     • Craig Y 3.1.3

       28 November 2013 at 2:44 pm

       Better yet, note their candidates and see if they have Facebook or other social network pages that disclose their actual fundamentalist Protestant/conservative Catholic/Mormon religious beliefs and admiration for odd pressure groups and strange philosophies.

       And, as John Campbell has pointed out, also note Rachel McGregor, CC’s media manager and spin doctor. He’s not that unvarnished.
     • Craig Y 3.1.4

       28 November 2013 at 2:44 pm

       Better yet, note their candidates and see if they have Facebook or other social network pages that disclose their actual fundamentalist Protestant/conservative Catholic/Mormon religious beliefs and admiration for odd pressure groups and strange philosophies.

       And, as John Campbell has pointed out, also note Rachel McGregor, CC’s media manager and spin doctor. He’s not that unvarnished.
4. dancerwaitakere 4

   27 November 2013 at 3:47 pm

   I am really confused about which website I am on right now.
   • lprent 4.1

     27 November 2013 at 4:12 pm

     Can’t oppose (or support) unless you understand what you are relating it to. For instance there is a fairly strong morally conservative part of the NZLP, and amongst some quite large numbers of their activists and MPs.

     Simply demonising political parties and politicians usually just causes unpleasant surprises later on. Just ask John Key about his working relationship with NZ First.

     To understand them you kind of have to know them and get some information from those who do. Otherwise it is ostrich territory.
5. Tracey 5

   27 November 2013 at 3:49 pm

   Cv

   was thinking about the last statement in the gp. They have managed to influence media coverage way beyond its electorate appeal. When was hone last sought out for his views on anything.

   its still who you know boys
   • Colonial Viper 5.1

     27 November 2013 at 9:55 pm

     NZ has a very strong network of old and new money. And they can make things happen pretty fast and pretty polished when they want it.
6. gobsmacked 6

   27 November 2013 at 4:41 pm

   Yes, under MMP there could well be 5% for a social conservative party. Group together a bunch of attitudes, some reasonable (concern about crime), some bigoted (teh gayz), add a dose of god. If voting was ticking boxes of policies (or prejudices), then yes, a sizeable section of NZ is definitely conservative.

   But instead … they’ll be asked to vote for Colin Craig. So, no.

   (also, this I love – They are trying not to be a Christian party as they know that they will be crucified under that heading … )
   • ghostrider888 6.1

     27 November 2013 at 8:07 pm

     Yep. so much for conviction where it counts, COLON Craig can kiss my bony, fire-red arse, and that of anybody else who sees him as anything more than a hypocritical worldly fool: That it has come to this, still, not unexpected.
7. karol 7

   27 November 2013 at 4:48 pm

   I think many on the left underestimate Craig and his Conservative Party. I don’t think he’s stupid. And I don’t think he’s ultra Christian Fundamentalist.

   Craig is more Christian Conservatism as it was in the 1950s NZ. His party is a bit retro, but that probably appeals to some.

   However, I think this Guest Post over estimates Craig. As others say: without his money he’d be a non starter in parliamentary politics, but might get some traction in local politics in a conservative area.
8. McFlock 8

   27 November 2013 at 4:58 pm

   Firstly, I reckon that there’s a gap in the party spread which means that a social-conservative but economically interventionist party might achieve 5-8%.

   But the problem for the conservatives is that they have to overcome the perception that they are simply a rich kook’s folly. Then they have to figure out whether they want to be typecast as a neolibnat ally, or maybe they want to sit back and vote on a bill-by-bill basis, maybe with an explicit quid pro quo for each confidence and supply bill.
   • One Anonymous Knucklehead 8.1

     27 November 2013 at 5:17 pm

     “If you’re doing business with a religious son-of-a-bitch, get it in writing. His word ain’t worth shit. Not with the good lord telling him how to fuck you on the deal.”

     William Burroughs.
     • McFlock 8.1.1

       27 November 2013 at 5:57 pm

       Spare Ass Annie recording, if I recall correctly 🙂
     • ghostrider888 8.1.2

       27 November 2013 at 8:08 pm

       love it OAK: Trust no man!
9. Epping Road 9

   27 November 2013 at 5:13 pm

   Colin Craig got tarred and feathered by first time candidate Mark Mitchell in Rodney, yet guest poster expects us to believe that Paula Bennett will be quivering in her boots at the prospect of going up against Craig.
   • X 9.1

     27 November 2013 at 6:04 pm

     Guest Poster here.

     I doubt Paula Bennett quivers in her boots/leopard skin at anything. But I would not be surprised if she comes out looking a little more stupid than she already does.
10. bad12 10

    27 November 2013 at 5:15 pm

    i beg to differ with the guest authors first paragraph,(and perhaps She/He can correct me on this), a quick analysis of the 2008 and 2011 election results from the Rodney electorate shows that Colon Craig took some 2000 votes off of National and nearly exactly the same amount of votes off of Labour, while a couple of hundred votes came from NZFirst,

    That would tend to suggest that Craig and his Conservatives gather most of their support off of both major parties, now that doesn’t address the 2.7% of the party vote Craig managed to scrape out of the electorate but i would consider that as NZFirst raised it’s vote by nearly 2% between elections 2008 and 2011 it is not that party which has suffered at the hands of the Conservatives no matter how vocal Craig himself is with this claim,

    Labour i would suggest should be the most worried about the influence of the Conservatives as if i am correct then for every % of the party vote Craig manages half of this will be shifting from left to right,

    National will have a lesser worry on this issue depending where the party vote %’s sit at the election,(and should the rumor of 39% be in any way correct then Slippery might as well book the ticket now),

    i have to wonder just how much money this bloke Craig has actually got in the kit, a reputed 2million bucks spent in 2011 got Him a distant third in the Rodney electorate although the 2+% of the party vote could be said to be value for money,(wasted snigger),

    Labour and the Green Parties have the key to Craig and the Conservative party’s success, both parties only need put sufficient people on the ground in any electorate that National gives Craig the ‘nod’, identify ALL the Labour and Green supporters in the electorate and convince these voters that to form a Labour/Green Government these voters need to Electorate Vote for the National candidate,(no matter how painful that is)…
    • lprent 10.1

      27 November 2013 at 5:27 pm

      Labour i would suggest should be the most worried about the influence of the Conservatives as if i am correct then for every % of the party vote Craig manages half of this will be shifting from left to right

      As people have noted further up, there is probably room for caring religious conservative party in NZ. Fortunately for a dyed in the wool agnostic (ie views it as irrelevant speculation) like me, over the decades we have seen a progression of quite strange people and/or parties trying to get that vote. As most of them tended to veer to the uncaring side of the religious ethos they’ve tended to drive off the voters that they need to get above 2-3% even in coalition.

      But as bad12 points out, they won’t just take votes from the voters for the right.
      • ghostrider888 10.1.1

        27 November 2013 at 8:10 pm

        or freakin’ sex offenders!
    • X 10.2

      27 November 2013 at 8:44 pm

      Another way of looking at the 2011 results is that the Conservative party got 5th by the number of votes after running a brief campaign. They may cut into NZ First this time around as Craig may look more attractive as Winny ages. They will definitely be after NZ First votes as it is a natural constituency. You probably have to spend bigger to get noticed initially but they will have more traction this time around and potentially more funding.

      Getting labour/green voters to vote national to stop a conservative chance would take some persuasion and some serious counting I’d recon.
      • bad12 10.2.1

        27 November 2013 at 9:32 pm

        i would suggest that getting Labour/Green voters to vote for the National candidate in an electorate where Colon Craig is also contesting would be as easy as door knocking to find the Labour/Green voters and telling them that it would be crucial for them to vote in such a fashion to ensure a Labour/Green Government,

        What amazes me is that in the MMP era there is still such a First Past the Post mentality among the left where looking at areas where cooperation as opposed to competition should be the norm,

        John Banks would not be in the Parliament today,(along with His ACT party), if Labours David Parker ,(5000 odd votes), and the Green Party’s David Hay, (2000 odd votes), had of spent their time convincing their supporters to vote for the National candidate who Banks only just squeaked past with a 2000 vote margin despite the much publicized ‘Chimps tea party’,

        Instead the pair of them campaigned as if this were an FPP election and they had the slightest chance of winning that electorate…
      • Zorr 10.2.2

        27 November 2013 at 9:43 pm

        Maybe knowing more about them is worse for their chances though

        I follow politics closely and I have no idea of who is in the Conservatives other than Colin Craig – he is all they have. He *is* the Conservative brand no matter what any cheerleader for them may say and last I checked God didn’t leave an edict in the Bible saying “Vote Colin Craig 2014”

        The more he continues to expose himself to cameras, the more un-electable he seems to become
11. Papa Tuanuku 11

    27 November 2013 at 5:24 pm

    Can the standard please devote an article to me? I’m a maori woman with a a reasonable income.

    i’m not an elected mp, but i have strong political beliefs, like craig.

    based on the last line, i’m on a par with colin craig. we are equal. can i please have some of the space that he is occupying on this site?
    • bad12 11.1

      27 November 2013 at 5:26 pm

      Lolz Papa, write up a ‘guest post’ and you never know your luck…
    • lprent 11.2

      27 November 2013 at 7:42 pm

      Like bad12 says. Actually the usual problem with getting guest posts up is often me or another editor having the time and the inclination to pay attention to them.

      But of course there is always the standard option.
12. phil 12

    27 November 2013 at 5:26 pm

    All this party nonsense. I’m with Jesse Ventura, who says the two party system is a rort and, to a large degree, is responsible for the mess we are in. We should be voting for individuals that the voters know, and trust them to represent the public good, and not their own party/corporate interests. Also full disclosure of party and electoral donations 90 days prior to the General election. All formal lobbyists of government should be publicly acknowledged. It’s time for this rigged charade called ‘democruptcy’ to stop.
13. Olwyn 13

    27 November 2013 at 5:28 pm

    If Colin Craig actually has the integrity that the post writer sees in him, then he is not merely a trojan horse for the more controversial national party policies, like charter schools for example. Which I guess is something of a relief. Furthermore, I do not see it as impossible that a conservative party should be the one to break ranks with the neo-liberal consensus. It was, after all, a Labour Party that led us into that trap.

    This, however, doe not seem likely to come from a conservative party that is in coalition with John Key’s National Party. Even if Craig is not a trojan horse per se, his “gains” would almost certainly be those that coincide with National’s general dismantling of almost everything. Like state welfare being increasingly replaced by church-based charity and other such things.
    • One Anonymous Knucklehead 13.1

      27 November 2013 at 5:36 pm

      “replaced”

      😆

      You think SERCO are going to let some not-for-profit do-gooder undermine all those political donations, all that hard lobbying work?
    • gobsmacked 13.2

      27 November 2013 at 5:41 pm

      We could write the National – Conservative coalition deal in five minutes …

      National’s “concessions” would be 1) things they agree with already, and 2) the old stand-bys like a “task force” (ACT got one for Brash to sit on, remember?) , a “panel” (the Maori Party got one on Foreshore & Seabed, nobody cares now), and all the other ways of doing nothing nicely.

      A lot of time will be wasted by pundits speculating on this, when all we need to know is one thing … if a National seat gets Craig into Parliament, they own him. That’s all.
      • Olwyn 13.2.1

        27 November 2013 at 6:28 pm

        I agree. But they will pretend he has twisted their arm over the things in (1) that are controversial.
14. greywarbler 14

    27 November 2013 at 5:54 pm

    I like this bit. Logics-minded will know what it’s called – a circular argument or what?
    ‘
    Colin like lots of Christians may see himself as a soldier and fighter in a spiritual fight and even though he does not go to church his faith is important.
    He will sacrifice a lot more than other politicians for his beliefs and he has a lot more vested financially in it than many politicians. ‘

    He may see himself as a soldier and fighter in a spiritual fight and even though he does not go to church his faith is important. (Clever that, no-one can out him for not going to a church.)
    And how is he different than anybody here toiling over a hot keyboard, fretting over an unbelievably stupid world of supposedly clever and potentially good people, who haven’t even abject poverty or not being properly toilet trained to blame for their ignominious and mean, putrid behaviour.

    And he has a lot more vested financially in it than many politicians, because, he has a lot more finance than many politicians. (And hasn’t accumulated the rich backers needed yet.)
15. amirite 15

    27 November 2013 at 6:14 pm

    I’m sorry, I just can’t take Colin Cray seriously, the man believes in Chemtrails! But, you can never underestimate the stupidity of people in large groups.
    The 2014 election campaign should be heaps of fun!
16. gobsmacked 16

    27 November 2013 at 6:16 pm

    Yep, Colin’s on the news again, and National are facepalming again …
    • amirite 16.1

      27 November 2013 at 6:21 pm

      They’ll have to chain him and put a muzzle on him right till the election day.
      • Ake ake ake 16.1.1

        27 November 2013 at 8:32 pm

        I would take Colin more seriously and enjoy his campaigning if he castrates himself and resurrects his choir boy charms like this:
17. red blooded 17

    27 November 2013 at 6:49 pm

    As Winston fades away, Dunne loses traction and Banks is shamed publicly for the lying fraudster that he is, it’s pretty much inevitable that someone will rise on the fringes. Key is being as blatant with Craig as he was with Banks. It’s a sorry sight, but not an unexpected one.
18. Brett Dale 18

    27 November 2013 at 7:12 pm

    They’re the right wing version of temana, only a small amount of people will vote for
    them.
    • marty mars 18.1

      27 November 2013 at 7:36 pm

      No they are not – please stop being so lazy in your thinking.
    • North 18.2

      27 November 2013 at 9:38 pm

      Brett you’re a steaming, facile fool. Fuck off to your natural habitat Slater Porn. Hang on…….don’t tell me you’ve convinced even them.
      • Brett Dale 18.2.1

        28 November 2013 at 1:58 pm

        North:

        The only i agree with slater on is his stance for gay marriage rights. His site is terrible

        Marty mars:

        I dont think it is, lazy, he wont get 2.5%, he wont even get 2%. There are just not that many bigots in NZ.
19. Zorr 19

    27 November 2013 at 7:18 pm

    “There is a large disaffected and disempowered vote out there which they are targeting. Do not forget that large chunks of the Pacific, Asian, South African’s and Maori populations are conservative and religious” <– this line really bugs me

    The two parts are accurate. There *is* a large disaffected and dis-empowered vote out there. And there are large amounts of conservative religious folks of the Pasifika/Maori stripe. However, the assumption made by this statement is that they would vote for Colin Craig without considering *why* they are disaffected and dis-empowered. They are this way *because of* rich white men JUST… LIKE… COLIN CRAIG.

    So despite sharing the very wide label of "Christian", I very much doubt they'll vote for him
    • marty mars 19.1

      27 November 2013 at 7:42 pm

      + 1 I don’t really understand why people think that christians, who are in every party, will drop everything and vote for a so called christian party – is that the way christians work?
      • Colonial Viper 19.1.1

        27 November 2013 at 7:45 pm

        These aren’t your grandma’s kind of Christians that we are talking about.
        • Zorr 19.1.1.1

          27 November 2013 at 7:59 pm

          They may not be our grandparent’s kind of Christians that we are talking about… but… those Christians are what the Conservatives will be relying on voting for them instead of the other major options (Greens/Labour/NZF/National). The Conservatives are hoping that enough people will choose the 5th cab off the rack based on the circumstantial fact that the driver is an avowed fundamentalist Christian who has an “I Drive 4 Jesus” bumper sticker
          • marty mars 19.1.1.1.1

            27 November 2013 at 8:54 pm

            Exactly Zorr. As far as I can see there are as many types of christians as cups of tea – every variation and then some. Will a christian stand for their faith and vote for a so called christian party? Will ‘a tie’ vote for the gnats, will the labourer vote for labour? It just seems too simplistic to me yet isn’t that the angle? Will Destiny endorse them, will the pope? Makes me pleased to just really care mostly about the disadvantaged and dispossessed in our society – every colour, every creed, every belief system.
            • Craig 19.1.1.1.1.1

              28 November 2013 at 4:14 pm

              No, Destiny won’t endorse them. Although rightist in other affairs, Destiny Church supports the current legal status and recognition of the Treaty of Waitangi- to which Colin C and the Cons are opposed. Investigate magazine, on the other hand, probably will…
    • lprent 19.2

      27 November 2013 at 7:44 pm

      I don’t think so either. The question is more if they’d vote for other people who also like his ambiguous policies, but who aren’t as rich? That no tax policy (even if I can’t see in the hell it could be paid for) will play well amongst vast swathes of the impoverished but self-virtuous.
      • Zorr 19.2.1

        27 November 2013 at 7:57 pm

        It may do but I would put my money on it not playing very well at all for the demographic that the guest poster seems to think the Conservatives are aiming for. From my personal experience (both in utilising the services and being a front line worker for WINZ), the more that someone has personal or close second hand experience of the welfare safety nets in our society, the less likely they are to want them further cut. If anything, the lower down the ladder, the more likely the person is to advocate for *more* and *better* service and it is very apparent when governments change in the level of care that is provided by these services. If you have family that are in poverty, are you likely to vote against their self interest? I seriously seriously doubt that.

        This is one of the many reasons why I think Colin and his Coo-Coo-ka-Choo Crazy Train of Christian Fundamentalists won’t make it no matter how many angels they can get to dance on the head of the pin. There just aren’t enough Christian conservative voters of a similar stripe in NZ to vote them in – even on an electorate level. They are attempting to transplant the Tea Party strategy from the US without considering a fundamental fact. NZ is not the southern US.
        • Colonial Viper 19.2.1.1

          27 November 2013 at 10:15 pm

          If you have family that are in poverty, are you likely to vote against their self interest? I seriously seriously doubt that.

          You forget human psychology. It happens all the time. John Key had a >55% approval rating for ages. You don’t think it was just people in the richest 55% of NZers who thought he was a good guy? More than enough beneficiaries and minimum wage workers vote National too.
          • Zorr 19.2.1.1.1

            27 November 2013 at 10:20 pm

            The whole approval rating thing is very weird and not as easy to quantify as a vote is. I would like to believe that John Key was running this country well and if I were less well informed then the spin that comes out of his government might be enough to convince me that “hey, this John Key cat is doing alright for us” without it being enough to sway me from being of the red/green persuasion. Yet that would count as a +1 to John Key in an approval rating poll…

            See the issue?
          • marty mars 19.2.1.1.2

            27 November 2013 at 10:24 pm

            “More than enough beneficiaries and minimum wage workers vote National too.”

            I don’t think that is true at all. Are you sure you aren’t getting enamored by the ‘approval rating’ info that you presented?
            • weka 19.2.1.1.2.1

              27 November 2013 at 10:43 pm

              There are definitely people on low incomes who vote on the right, even against their best interests. It’s weird.
              • Colonial Viper …

                28 November 2013 at 12:37 am

                Just like National and ACT supporters consider any millionaire mates who vote Labour as mad and class traitors.
              • X …

                28 November 2013 at 8:01 am

                I’ll have a go at explaining this. Not everyone thinks that money is all that matters. They may be more interested in having fun. They want others to do the thinking and work and government to just leave them alone. Which mostly it does. They know they are not educated or interested enough, so as long as the person plays well to them, appears trustworthy, doesn’t impact on their life too negatively they’ll vote for them. John Key really understands this.
            • Colonial Viper 19.2.1.1.2.2

              28 November 2013 at 12:35 am

              I don’t think that is true at all. Are you sure you aren’t getting enamored by the ‘approval rating’ info that you presented?

              Uh…as a candidate I door knocked these people and talked to them in public settings. For some, it was a simple matter of wanting to identify with an aspirational political party and a financially successful person as PM. To them, Labour keeps talking about being poor and the Greens are just wacko.

              In fact, have you ever stopped and wondered why the Left says that it serves the interests of the 99%…yet cannot even deliver a simple majority at the polls?

              The cognitive dissonance is very worthwhile exploring.
              • ropata …

                28 November 2013 at 2:39 am

                Talking to the voters and getting realistic info?? Heresy!

                A ‘true’ leftie must jump on the bandwagon of every PC cause no matter how annoying it is to the voting public
                • Colonial Viper …

                  28 November 2013 at 7:53 am

                  that’s certainly one way of doing it…and don’t forget to shout down everyone else on the way d/t to being morally superior and incredibly self-righteous.
              • marty mars …

                28 November 2013 at 8:36 am

                Fair enough – can’t beat personal experience – although I would have thought the numbers of beneficiaries and minimum wage recipients voting that way are smallish. Must just be the crowd I hang with.
        • Craig 19.2.1.2

          29 November 2013 at 9:58 am

          Unfortunately for them, the Christian Right does tend to import propaganda, tactics and strategy holus bolus from the US Christian Right viz much propaganda against marriage equality, their binding citizens referenda fetishism, the Conservative Party’s stealth (we aren’t fundies- no, really!) tactics, ad nauseum. And there’s also the possibility that a rival fundamentalist microparty will pop up and challenge them on climate change, welfare policy and binding referenda. Oz has two such parties, the Christian Democratic Party (NSW) and Family First Party (Victoria).
    • X 19.3

      27 November 2013 at 8:09 pm

      You’ll need to get the message out there that its the white folks fault they are in the situation they are in. I will bet The Conservatives have some leadership support in those communities and they are pretty community minded unlike the white folk who tend to be individualistic. (I’m generalizing.) First $25K tax free is pretty attractive sweetener to low income groups regardless of race. You continue to be under the illusion that it is a one man band.
      • Zorr 19.3.1

        27 November 2013 at 8:23 pm

        I’m pretty sure that they haven’t forgotten the inter-generational theft of their precious resources by European colonials…

        So, in fact, it’s the white guys who need to convince them that it’s *not* their fault. Not the other way round. And that is where your thinking is so wrong-headed

        EDIT: Also, on that $25k tax free bracket – if Conservatives get voted in they have to get that past National. And then you also have the issue of paying for the services that fill the gaps for everyone on lower incomes. This is an issue when you drill down in to it (and it will happen in an election cycle) because it ultimately means that those on lower incomes actually have less. Much like the GST switch.
20. Rogue Trooper 20

    27 November 2013 at 8:15 pm

    just about all that Zorr says in my humble opinion.
21. RedBaronCV 21

    27 November 2013 at 8:25 pm

    Somebody above mentioned media time and coverage and I remembered a post I did some time back.(below)
    I wondered how they managed to get such influence – any ideas?

    “RedBaronCV 24.1.1.1
    13 March 2013 at 10:21 pm

    Listening to 8 a.m news this morning. Announcer mentions that the young Acts, Nats, labour , greens etc had banded together to support gay marriage.
    So far so good, then on comes some young bloke J.A…….? who represents the young conservatives, Colin Craig’s mob I assume. Firstly he spends time whining that his young conservatives hadn’t been asked to join the discussion but they didn’t support it anyway and then goes on to say that the others are misrepresenting the views of all young New Zealanders. Rich coming from the flea on the back of the margin of error conservative dog.

    However, his rant took up, I estimate around a third of the total time of the news broadcast.
    How on earth did they get so much news time and a voice over prepared statement as well. Just who “influenced” that little lot and why.”
    • Rogue Trooper 21.1

      27 November 2013 at 8:40 pm

      win / win for conservative elements with media influence; conservative profile and ratings.
22. Draco T Bastard 22

    27 November 2013 at 8:49 pm

    This may well be the path for the future with the Internet as a means of participation and information for those who are wealthy enough to afford the time to be informed and participate.

    It is the way of the future in which case we will need to ensure that people do have the time rather than hoping that everyone will be wealthy enough. Of course, the conservatives won’t do that. In fact, they’re likely to try to cement in the present inequalities – it’s truly what makes them National’s coalition partner.
    • X 22.1

      28 November 2013 at 7:47 am

      One of the Conservatives major platforms is binding referenda which is a step along the road to informed citizen participatory democracy. As far as I know nothing coming out of the left promotes this type of democracy.
      • Craig 22.1.1

        29 November 2013 at 9:59 am

        That’s because many of us believe that a written constitution and judicial challenge strategies based on it would be preferable to populist plebiscites mostly driven by the raving right…
23. vto 23

    27 November 2013 at 9:04 pm

    From what I can tell this Conservative Party aint actually conservative at all, it’s pretty out there…
    • felix 23.1

      27 November 2013 at 9:46 pm

      I guess “Colin Craig’s Extremist Party” didn’t have a snappy enough acronym.
24. tricledrown 24

    27 November 2013 at 9:36 pm

    Tv3 news tonight Colon Craig has put his foot in mouth again campaigning in CHCH he’s a complete and utter looney good replacement for Act.
    • Zorr 24.1

      27 November 2013 at 9:46 pm

      http://www.3news.co.nz/Colin-Craig-admires-Sarah-Palin/tabid/1607/articleID/323089/Default.aspx#.UpWxDcQwpLU

      I followed up your comment and found this

      The fail is strong in this one. They should replace him with a sign that says “Vote for us. We have Christian values” – it would be less embarrassing.
      • X 24.1.1

        28 November 2013 at 7:41 am

        I am not sure his comments are not a wind up to get air time. The mainstream media is mostly interested in the sensational as news.

        He actual said he admired Sarah Palin because she is a good shot (why that is admirable is beyond me) and because she stood up to oil companies in Alaska. The Conservatives are not big business friendly, unlike the Nats. Though anything is possible outside government.

        As for Chemtrails, he said he did not support or oppose things without evidence. I have to say I do not think Colin’s strength lies in science.
        • ghostrider888 24.1.1.1

          28 November 2013 at 11:52 am

          ya don’t say!
    • Zorr 24.2

      27 November 2013 at 9:55 pm

      Awaiting moderation on that last comment – that’s a new one

      Anyway, another thing that popped out at me from the 3 News story was how closely John Key has become tied to “his new friend” Colin Craig

      More media time for the muppet! Long live the association of brands!
      • lprent 24.2.1

        27 November 2013 at 11:29 pm

        There is a spam network being rather active – currently mostly in japanese. Must be pushing akismet because it is running behind.
25. Debbie 25

    27 November 2013 at 10:14 pm

    To be fair, as a Christian I actually think Labour and the Greens tend to have policies more in keeping with Christ’s teachings (feed the poor, look after the widows and orphans, help the needy and disadvantaged). And so that’s where my vote will go next year.

    For the life of me I don’t understand why Christianity is supposedly synonymous with the traits of greed and selfishness which permeate some of the further right political parties. And given that Colin Craig doesn’t even attend church – well I’m sorry but that smacks to me of the typeof person who cherry picks the Bible verses that appeal to him, yet thinks he knows better than any trained minister or priest. So no, as a Christian I will NOT be voting conservative.

    Having said that, I would find it rather amusing if he beat Paula Bennett.
    • Rogue Trooper 25.1

      27 November 2013 at 10:23 pm

      +3
    • Zorr 25.2

      27 November 2013 at 11:12 pm

      +1

      With regards Christianity becoming synonymous with greed, it seems to be a post-rationalization of financial success for the faithful allowing them to reverse-claim piety as only the truly devout are blessed by such success.
      • ropata 25.2.1

        28 November 2013 at 2:51 am

        Possibly Zorr, in the Old Testament wealth is a strong signifier of God’s blessing.
        In the New Testament Christ’s message is practically the opposite. But the false “Prosperity Gospel” gained a lot of traction in the 20th century. And in broad terms the mission of Christianity has been undermined and corrupted by the philosophy of consumerism marketed all pervasively to our pliant brains.
    • ropata 25.3

      28 November 2013 at 2:43 am

      Amen, sister.
      Arohanui
    • X 25.4

      28 November 2013 at 7:32 am

      Lots of Christ’s teaching do have more in common with Green/Labour policy. However there is this thing call ‘prosperity doctrine’. This is roughly; success, wealth = God’s blessing. It can be got from the OT and NT. Because God is all knowing and perfectly just then it is not a hard stretch to go; success, wealth = God’s blessing = good character.

      I do not think this is true however there are plenty of preachers who promote it particularly in the USA and it gives people moral justification.
    • Craig 25.5

      29 November 2013 at 10:04 am

      One liberal Catholic friend said to me that the Christian Right practises a mutated, distorted version of Christianity that should be renamed “Americhristianity TM” as it twists and distorts the faith to turn Christ into a celestial authoritarian obsessed with micromanaging people’s interpersonal behaviour and either ignoring or exacerbating social injustice when it comes to access to public health, social welfare and remedial legislation.
26. Princess 26

    29 November 2013 at 9:15 pm

    My thoughts are Colin Craig is as slippery as John Key and there is no way in hell I will be voting for either. What springs to mind are ‘wolves in sheep’s clothing’.
27. Jonathan 27

    30 November 2013 at 2:31 pm

    I’m impressed with! Craig! If only 10% void for him, the difference to NZ would be very positive. Good sence on most things.

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