Who was then the gentleman?

36 comments on “Who was then the gentleman? ”

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1. Raymond a Francis 1

   21 March 2013 at 1:51 pm

   “The parties of the Left remembering that they are and must be parties of the masses, not parties ‘for’ the masses but run by the elite.”

   Agree, agree

   Never was a truer word said
   • Ennui 1.1

     21 March 2013 at 3:29 pm

     Heresy!!!!!!!!
     • Anne 1.1.1

       21 March 2013 at 5:33 pm

       Off with his head!
2. Colonial Viper 2

   21 March 2013 at 3:45 pm

   “Parties of the Left”. You used the plural there. Parties of the Left need ideologically Left Wing MPs and they need Left Wing leaders. Who are they?
3. AmaKiwi 3

   21 March 2013 at 3:59 pm

   Watching recent parliamentary “question time” (with no answers!) reinforces my conviction that if our parliament were a company, non-profit organization, school, extended family, or ANY sort of human association it would be deemed irreparably dysfunctional.
4. Tiresias 4

   21 March 2013 at 4:26 pm

   Jesus said much the same (Mark 10: 42-25), and didn’t fare any better.

   The problem is, as we’ve seen over and over, is that ‘liberty’ is all very find and dandy to go rabble-rousing with, but what you end up with is ‘anarchy’, leading inexorably to the saviour dictator. Find a way of having order without control and you’ve cracked it.

   Until then the best we can hope to do is to keep those who would govern us honest, and that’s where we’ve fallen down.
   • Tiresias 4.1

     21 March 2013 at 4:27 pm

     Sorry, that’s Mark 10: 42-45. Oh for the old edit button.
   • gsays 4.2

     21 March 2013 at 4:37 pm

     ” Find a way of having order without control and you’ve cracked it.”

     it is time for the rule of the philosopher kings. the rule of the wise.
     imagine you are in an aeroplane and the pilot dies.
     do you want to have a popularity contest to see who flies the plane? or the best looking?
     or the richest?
     • Tiresias 4.2.1

       21 March 2013 at 4:47 pm

       However you choose your new pilot you’re imposing control on anarchy.

       But I agree with you about the Philosopher Kings. Come out, come out wherever you are, Aragorn. We need you to reclaim the Crown you don’t want.

       Short of that perhaps the best solution is to have a Parliament of people who would really, really rather be doing something else.
       • ghostrider888 4.2.1.1

         21 March 2013 at 5:36 pm

         Fine Words Tiresias (and your portrayed life-style sounds well-earned)
       • Colonial Viper 4.2.1.2

         21 March 2013 at 5:49 pm

         Short of that perhaps the best solution is to have a Parliament of people who would really, really rather be doing something else.

         Pretty much. Anyone who truly desires power should be the absolute last to be given it.
     • AmaKiwi 4.2.2

       21 March 2013 at 5:57 pm

       @ gsays

       “imagine you are in an aeroplane and the pilot dies. do you want to have a popularity contest to see who flies the plane? or the best looking? or the richest?”

       Why do you have so little faith in your neighbors? People have often found themselves in a situation similar to the one you describe. They usually have little difficulty figuring out who is the next most qualified person to carry on the task. And, they SUPPORT that person.

       What kind of horror stories did you grow up with? I have NEVER been in a riot, except ones started by the police using tear gas on peaceful demonstrators.
   • Draco T Bastard 4.3

     21 March 2013 at 7:14 pm

     Anarchy, the most ordered of societies.

     Just because anarchy doesn’t have a government doesn’t mean that there isn’t any governance.
   • Ugly Truth 4.4

     24 March 2013 at 6:49 am

     “Jesus said much the same (Mark 10: 42-25), and didn’t fare any better.”

     Victor’s history. The gospel of Barnabus in Ankara isn’t a fake like they say.
5. ropata 5

   21 March 2013 at 4:33 pm

   We need an Iceland style disaster before voters realise drastic change is needed, or our Nation will be sold off like a Greek island
   • Tiresias 5.1

     21 March 2013 at 5:47 pm

     Unfortunately Iceland-style disasters haven’t effected drastic changes in Iceland, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Spain, &tc.

     What I think we need is a Beppe Grillo – if, that is, he can deliver what he promises with vision, pragmatism, honesty, integrity, fairness and humility. Oh God, why do I suddenly feel depressed?
     • ghostrider888 5.1.1

       21 March 2013 at 5:52 pm

       Beppe Grillo is a “corporation” according to comments and links earlier on TS
       • AmaKiwi 5.1.1.1

         21 March 2013 at 6:13 pm

         @ ghostrider888

         “Beppe Grillo is a “corporation” according to comments and links earlier on TS.”

         I don’t care if he is an alien cabbage boat captain.

         Look at the ideas.

         If you follow Christianity (or Islam, Marxism, etc.) is it because you are obeying Christ commandments or because you have decided what Christ said is true and worth following?

         I vote for the latter. No hero worship for me, thank you. We should start our own 5 Star Movement.
         • ghostrider888 5.1.1.1.1

           21 March 2013 at 6:51 pm

           True, and worth following
         • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.2

           21 March 2013 at 7:14 pm

           I vote for the latter. No hero worship for me, thank you. We should start our own 5 Star Movement.

           Hmmmmm 🙂
           • ghostrider888 5.1.1.1.2.1

             22 March 2013 at 2:28 pm

             not informed of his politics, yet Mikey Havoc would be interesting
     • AmaKiwi 5.1.2

       21 March 2013 at 6:03 pm

       We can be our own Greppe Grillo.

       His formula is not complicated. It is based on principles, NOT on a personality.

       Anti-corruption, direct democracy, protect the environment, internet access. Do NOT take stands on other issues because the PEOPLE should decide, not the politicians.

       A 5 Star Movement can be led by anyone, anywhere, who sticks to the 5 principles.
       • Tiresias 5.1.2.1

         21 March 2013 at 9:12 pm

         ropata’s point above I took to mean that it will take a disaster than directly affects “mum-and-dad Kiwi’ before we’ll get the kind of grass-roots response to what has become a very shonky system, with a desire to improve it.

         Regrettably I think that’s right, but I have also suggested that simply storming the barricades yelling “Liberty or death” won’t stir mum-and-dad Kiwi either as, rightly, they are going to believe that just leads to chaos and anarchy.

         So to stir mum-and-dad Kiwi into storming the barricades is going to take someone they know and someone they have no reason not to trust to tell them where they are going and what is going to happen when they get there. Unfortunately -particularly after Obama’s betrayal – there’s not a politician alive who can ask for that kind of trust, so that only leaves someone they know, don’t mistrust and who can articulate a vision. That means a 5-Star-typw movement can now only be led by ‘entertainer’ in the broadest sense – a Beppe Grillo.

         AmaKiwi’s post at 3 above makes the point – the now blatant arrogance and stupidity of today’s crop of politicians has prepared the ground for a Messianic figure – someone from outside politics with the instant recognition of the media figure to lead a groundswell of revolt against them. But that requirement of wide recognition does mean that not just anyone can lead a M5S.

         Who could fill that role in New Zealand? Judy Bailey? Some All Black, Peter Jackson?
         • gorj 5.1.2.1.1

           21 March 2013 at 9:56 pm

           Not sure about M&D distrusting politicians, look how many still trust key 😉 Mum and Dad kiwi are dealing with disaster, and propaganda, mass media is stopping any grass roots response. Much rather watch the all blacks or masterchef and forget about our problems aye, keep us in front of telly and not talking to each other 😉 When things get worse, propaganda will respond accordingly until itself cannot be sustained economically and only then imo any significant change will happen..

           What you are saying is true though, the only way to fight a technique is with a stronger technique and a celebrity involved in mass media has power to help the cause of the left immensely. Hopefully they get Cunliffe on their team 🙂
         • The Al1en 5.1.2.1.2

           21 March 2013 at 10:35 pm

           “the now blatant arrogance and stupidity of today’s crop of politicians has prepared the ground for a Messianic figure – someone from outside politics with the instant recognition of the media figure to lead a groundswell of revolt against them. But that requirement of wide recognition does mean that not just anyone can lead a M5S.”

           Okay, I’ll do it for minimum wage and not a penny more.
           Plus I don’t fly any more, so I won’t take the taxpayer funded jaunts on offer, either.
           You get the 500 signatures you need to register the party, get members of the standard to come up with a constitution and party list and I’ll stand in Ham West in 2014.
           Two ticks for The peoples party.
           Go on, do it.
           • Tiresias 5.1.2.1.2.1

             21 March 2013 at 11:09 pm

             Sorry, but it has to be with someone who has already established their credentials as being ‘above’ politics, which – gorj – rules out anyone recogniseably left or right.

             It would need to be someone able to convincingly say “a plague on all your houses’ – as Grillo did, and has been professionally for many years.

             Depressingly I cannot think of a single New Zealander who could do what Grillo did, tho’ Jackson could probably get closest.
             • The Al1en …

               21 March 2013 at 11:19 pm

               You didn’t knock my messianic capabilities, so I’m not too hurt by the rejection.
               Still, my doors never closed.
               Call me if you get stuck and need a hand.
       • gorj 5.1.2.2

         21 March 2013 at 10:03 pm

         @Amakiwi I think you overestimate people’s ability to think for themselves and you underestimate the influence of propaganda.
         • Colonial Viper 5.1.2.2.1

           21 March 2013 at 10:26 pm

           Smart observation

           And not just propaganda, but simple authority figure effects.
6. ghostrider888 6

   21 March 2013 at 6:53 pm

   Love the Lord God with all, and your neighbor as yourselves (does not get any easier than that)
   • Tiresias 6.1

     21 March 2013 at 11:20 pm

     That, actually, is by definition the very thing a sociopath cannot do. And in the cult of the individual we have created it is necessary to be a sociopath to get to the ‘top’ whether in business, politics or sport.
     • Ugly Truth 6.1.1

       24 March 2013 at 6:45 am

       Getting to the top is the way of the empire. Rome lives on in civil government, but common law has the remedy.
7. kiwi_prometheus 7

   22 March 2013 at 7:05 am

   ghostrider > “Love the Lord God with all, and your neighbor as yourselves (does not get any easier than that)”

   Giving all your love to something that doesn’t exist doesn’t strike me as being unproblematic.

   I think the materialist Marx summed it up nicely:

   “Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions.”
   • Ugly Truth 7.1

     24 March 2013 at 6:57 am

     Marx sounds like a nihilist. The system confirms the truth of religion when it lies about it.
8. Ugly Truth 8

   24 March 2013 at 7:03 am

   “a person can do the same work with the same skill but be paid less because of what kind of person they are”

   Personhood is about representations. The word person is from phersu, meaning mask. As far as the civil system is concerned personhood implies obligation.
   • Rogue Trooper 8.1

     26 March 2013 at 12:28 pm

     I like the way you think, Beautiful Truth

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