China’s Peace Initiative for Ukraine

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1. Francesca 1

   27 February 2023 at 8:27 am

   Without US approval, doubtful that a peace plan suggested by China will succeed

   https://www.politico.com/news/2023/02/24/united-states-china-ukraine-00084384
   • lprent 1.1

     27 February 2023 at 9:40 am

     Not to mention that of Ukraine, Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Germany, France, UK, EU, and NATO.

     What is it with you latter day imperialists – do you think that only large countries actually count.
     • Francesca 1.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 9:49 am

       What is it with you geo political innocents that you cling to the notion that the US, as the head of NATO, does not exert pressure on its underlings, that each pipsqeak country like Lithuania (pop 2.08 mill) is as good as its master.

       Again, within NATO, the US rules : watch out for election upsets in Turkey and ructions in Hungary for the next 4 years
       • lprent 1.1.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 7:51 pm

         Ah I see that you're another latter day latter imperialist. Having a large population and a large penis extender means that you can just ignore the smaller countries.

         So what do you think that Australia should do us? Take over Southland because they could use the hydropower?

         Annex Fiji as a sub base?

         You really should think through the implications of what you write. Doing it in the local context may be useful for your decision making.
2. UncookedSelachimorpha 2

   27 February 2023 at 8:37 am

   "China has set out its studied neutrality "

   "We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented." Elie Wiesel

   An authoritarian state supports a brutal dictatorship. Carefully avoids saying Russia should withdraw its troops and reverse their illegal invasion, which is the one thing that will bring lasting peace. The Chinese position is exactly what is desired by Russia at present, and echos through their propaganda channels. i.e. 'Stop the war now, let us keep our captured territories – then we have another go later'.

   "With neither side able to win, "

   Let's see how that assumption looks in another six months.
   • lprent 2.1

     27 February 2023 at 9:38 am

     It is a rather pointless plan. As you say it will be viewed as simply allows time for RussiaFed to rearm and try again.

     The RussiaFed hasn’t backed off from their stated objectives to hold unlawfully annexed territory, to force regime change in Ukraine, and to dictate Ukrainian policy.

     It simply rewards RussiaFed for a policy of aggression and invasion of their neighbours. If China was being serious, they’d be pushing for Russia to withdraw to previous borders, drop its unlawful annexation.

     It would be better for Ukraines long-term future and that of the countries committed to international law and the UN charter to just keep fighting and supplying. Maybe start looking at applying sanctions to China if it starts to engage in supporting the Russian invasion.
     • Francesca 2.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 10:00 am

       Russia learnt that lesson from the Ukrainian /German/French admission that the Minsk agreements were signed without any intention of implementing them, to integrate the Ukrainian army within NATO standards and build up armaments.
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.1.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 2:26 pm

         "to integrate the Ukrainian army within NATO standards and build up armaments."

         One of the big problems Ukraine had when it was further invaded in Feb 22, was that its military was still fairly soviet and had a lot of old, soviet weapons. Only after the invasion has there been a much bigger shift towards Western weapons, training and tactics.

         Another utter bungle and misjudgement by Putin, driving his victims to better arm themselves.
       • lprent 2.1.1.2

         27 February 2023 at 7:57 pm

         Russia learnt that lesson from the Ukrainian /German/French admission…

         Like Ukraine learnt a lesson from having Russia invading and then annexing Crimea on the basis of an unobserved fake referendum. Then when they objected, proceeded to incite and support economically and militarily (active troops on leave !?!) a insurrection next to Russia’s borders.

         But hey, you're the latter day imperial colonist. I guess this fits right within your rather immoral ethos that might makes it right.
         • mikesh 2.1.1.2.1

           28 February 2023 at 9:44 am

           My recollection of what was reported at the time is that the referendum was observed. It is difficult to provide a link for that after eight years but the following may be of interest:

           Gallup conducted an immediate post-referendum survey of Ukraine and Crimea and published their results in April 2014. Gallup reported that, among the population of Crimea, 93.6% of ethnic Russians and 68.4% of ethnic Ukrainians believed the referendum result accurately represents the will of the Crimean people. Only 1.7% of ethnic Russians and 14.5% of ethnic Ukrainians living in Crimea thought that the referendum results didn't accurately reflect the views of the Crimean people.[43]

           https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
           • mikesh 2.1.1.2.1.1

             28 February 2023 at 10:03 am

             PS: There would seem to something rather undemocratic in declaring the holding of a referendum "illegal".
             • UncookedSelachimorpha …

               28 February 2023 at 9:58 pm

               Even the recent ones, held at gunpoint in someone else's country, where the population has just been murdered, terrorised and displaced on a large scale?

               Sort of smells a bit illegal, but I'm not a lawyer…
               • mikesh …

                 28 February 2023 at 10:47 pm

                 Red herrings don’t impress me.
3. SPC 3

   27 February 2023 at 8:46 am

   It's possible China is

   1. doing this as a cover for supplying weapons to Russia if this approach does not result in a cease-fire and end of sanctions on Russia.
   2. to advance its own claims to Taiwan and opposing any unilateral sanctions if it acts aggressively (as Russia did).

   It’s just ratcheting up of pressure on public opinion – because General Winter turned out to be a lightweight event.

   China could do more for itself (by respecting national sovereignty) and for peace by not standing with Russia. In choosing this course, it is taking the side of taking territory by force.
   • Thinker 3.1

     27 February 2023 at 5:32 pm

     Or it could be getting nervous if Puty looks to be getting ready to blast a few nuclear power plants. Maybe China doesn't want to be downstream of that.
4. UncookedSelachimorpha 4

   27 February 2023 at 8:54 am

   "Ukrainian presidential adviser Mykhailo Podolyak called the Chinese proposals “unrealistic” in a tweet on Saturday"

   Good you included the Ukrainian side – Ukrainian views are paramount, given they are the victim of Russia's aggression. So many of the pro-Russian pieces on here lately never include any Ukrainian comment. Here is Podolyak's comments on the China plan in full:

   If you claim to be a global player, you don't offer an unrealistic plan. You don't bet on an aggressor who broke intl law and will lose the war. It's not far-sighted. As someone who plans for decades doesn't play "Russian 3-day games." China, the "window of opportunity" is not endless

   Any "peace plan" with ceasefire only and, as a result, a new delimitation line and continued occupation of Ukrainian territory isn’t about peace, but about freezing the war, Russian Ukrainian defeat, next stages of Russian genocide. Ukraine's position is known – the withdrawal of Russian troops to the borders of 1991

   Here is the peace plan Podolyak tweeted, quite a contrast to China's (in my opinion) weasel words:

   Three mandatory steps to peace…

   1. Stop being afraid of RF. It's time to put it in its place.

   2. Stop proposing "peace initiatives" envisaging the surrender of (territory in exchange for. Ukrainian land.

   3. Withdraw (forcibly or voluntarily) Russian troops from the 1991 borders of Ukraine.

   (https://twitter.com/Podolyak_M/status/1628761462582673408)
   • mikesh 4.1

     27 February 2023 at 10:01 am

     If, operating from a 'blank slate' we were making decisions as who should have sovereignty over what territories, I think we would probably grant sovereignty over Donetsk, etc. to Russia. History is something we can learn from but it should not be a determining factor in the decisions we make today. Just because something has been the case in the past does not automatically mean it should be the case today. When Henry Ford said 'history is bunk', that is probably what he meant.
     • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 2:29 pm

       Makes me thankful that your and Putin's reckons are not the basis for setting international borders. Putin appeals to (and distorts) history when it suits his imperialist ambition – ignores it at other times.
       • mikesh 4.1.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 8:11 pm

         I don't recall Putin distorting history. When did he do that?
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 4.1.1.1.1

           27 February 2023 at 9:27 pm

           He's been doing it for a long time, on record since at least 2008.

           Central to this narrative is Putin’s fixation with Ukraine’s supposed lack of an authentic historical, political, and linguistic identity.

           As early as 2008, he reportedly told then-US President George W. Bush that Ukraine was “not even a real country”. In 2021, Putin personally wrote and disseminated a 5000-plus-word essay, “On the historical unity of Russians and Ukrainians”, imagining a continuity of unity between the Russian and Ukrainian peoples stretching from the ancient Kyivan Rus’ to the present.

           In reality, the imperialist notion of the “unity” of Russia and Ukraine dates back no further than the 18th and 19th centuries, when the Russian Empire (a title adopted in the 18th century) sought to legitimise its control of modern Ukraine.

           …

           In reviving a modern form of the “Orthodoxy, Autocracy, and Nationality” formula to justify the brutal invasion of Ukraine, Putin is “reconsolidating [the] imperial nationalism” of the past in order to “recolonise” Ukraine. Tragically, it’s now clear that Putin’s denial of history lies at the heart of his violently expansionist agenda.

           Of course, after claiming that Ukrainians are in fact Russians – Putin then goes on to murder tens of thousands of them – so much for his lie of protecting his fellow Russians.

           Further reading:

           “There is no Ukraine”: Fact-Checking the Kremlin’s Version of Ukrainian History [from 2020]

           and History as Ammunition:

           Why does the new, post-communist Russia, which claims to have broken with the evil traditions of the USSR, stubbornly refuse to admit that the Baltic nations — Estonians, Latvians, and Lithuanians — were occupied and annexed against their will and contrary to international law, in 1940, and once again in 1944, and subsequently brought to the limit of their national existence through five decades of sovietization and russification?

           Meri went on to highlight that a deputy foreign minister, Sergei Krylov, had just stated publicly that Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania had joined the Soviet Union “voluntarily.” This, he said, “is little short of the statement that tens of thousands of Estonians, including my family and myself, had “voluntarily” let themselves be deported to Siberia by the Soviets.”

           It is worth noting that this mild admonition provoked the head of the Russian delegation to lead his colleagues in a walkout, slamming the door demonstratively behind him, before they had a chance to eat dinner. That official, at the time the head of the St Petersburg committee for foreign economic relations, was to become better known in later years. His name was Vladimir Putin.
           • mikesh 4.1.1.1.1.1

             28 February 2023 at 12:00 am

             Of course, after claiming that Ukrainians are in fact Russians – Putin then goes on to murder tens of thousands of them – so much for his lie of protecting his fellow Russians.

             You seem to be overlooking the fact that the Ukrainians were at war with one another, anyway, and had been since 2014.
             • UncookedSelachimorpha …

               28 February 2023 at 10:00 am

               Oh, so it was Ukrainian's who razed Mariupol to the ground etc etc, mass murder in Bucha etc.

               Yeah right
               • mikesh …

                 28 February 2023 at 10:06 am

                 I didn't say that. Nor did I imply it.
           • mikesh 4.1.1.1.1.2

             28 February 2023 at 9:55 am

             As I understand matters, the Baltic states were occupied by the Soviet Union, not Russia, around the beginning of WWII. At the time the Soviets were led by Joseph Stalin who came, not from Russia, but from Georgia. The Soviet Union and Russia were separate entities, so Putin didn't lie when he denied that those states were occupied by Russia.

             However I sympathize with your forbears’ sufferings. I understand that hardships were experienced by many at the hands of Stalin.
             • Belladonna …

               28 February 2023 at 10:17 pm

               The imperialist tendencies of all three iterations of 'Russia' (Tsarist Russia, Soviet Union and Russian Federation) are marked. And their neighbours would have very legitimate cause for concern.

               So which political 'version' occupied the Baltic States during WW2 is not likely to be highly relevant to the residents.

               They are more concerned over ensuring that history doesn't repeat.

               You (and Putin) can't have it both ways. If 'Russia' as a country only exists in a post Soviet-Union era (and is therefore not responsible for acts carried out by its precursor states); then, equally, 'Russia' has no historic claim on states and/or peoples which have never been part of the post-Soviet country.

               Arguing for a reconstituted Russian empire – sounds really odd in a 21st century world.
               • mikesh …

                 28 February 2023 at 10:52 pm

                 So which political 'version' occupied the Baltic States during WW2 is not likely to be highly relevant to the residents.

                 Maybe not. But it is relevant to the historical record.
                 • Belladonna …

                   1 March 2023 at 8:07 am

                   Oh, you mean the historical record that says that 'Russia' (the current country) has only been in existence since 1991 – and therefore has zero historical claim to Ukraine or any of the other ex-Soviet republics.
                   • mikesh …

                     1 March 2023 at 8:13 am

                     What about this, what about that, whatever. Red herrings don't impress me.
                 • Belladonna …

                   1 March 2023 at 8:24 am

                   Didn't introduce a single red herring – let alone "what abouts"

                   Simply countering your (apparently uncritical acceptance) of the Russian propaganda with the odd fact.
                   • mikesh …

                     1 March 2023 at 1:56 pm

                     We were discussing Stalin's transporting of persons from the Baltic States. The existence, or non existence, of Russia, and let alone the status of Ukraine, were irrelevant. The reddest of herrings, surely.
                   • UncookedSelachimorpha …

                     1 March 2023 at 11:26 pm

                     Red Herrings = the facts are problematic and the Russian propaganda isn't coping
                   • mikesh …

                     2 March 2023 at 10:23 am

                     Red Herrings = the facts are problematic and the Russian propaganda isn't coping

                     Yes. That is exactly when people employ red herrings. ie when the facts they are alleging are problematic, and/or the propaganda, whatever is origin, is not coping.
5. Francesca 5

   27 February 2023 at 9:04 am

   If there are still those out there who are baffled by the Global South's refusal to take the West's side in Ukraine , this explains pretty well:

   https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/02/5-reasons-why-much-of-the-global-south-isnt-automatically-supporting-the-west-in-ukraine.html
6. Ad 6

   27 February 2023 at 9:05 am

   And in breaking news, Lukashenko and Putin will fly to visit Xi Jinping in China next week.

   That looks like both sides see merit in engaging on the proposal.

   There's now a shot at an engagement process being formed.
   • SPC 6.1

     27 February 2023 at 9:11 am

     Good one, Lukashenko is the long term autocrat ruling Byelorussia. At least Franco was genuinely nuetral …
     • Ad 6.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 9:17 am

       Let's presume that absent the UN as an arbiter towards neutrality, that neutrality in this case is impossible.

       Let's just presume there are sovereign interests to defend and start from there.
       • SPC 6.1.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 9:22 am

         It looks more like a discussion of the use of Byelorussian front as either a threat of, or an actual expansion of the war (sans a Chinese cease-fire front).
   • Francesca 6.2

     27 February 2023 at 9:56 am

     Although its not actually a plan , the points when explained in full, are bang on

     For instance:"the security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs"

     https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/zxxx_662805/202302/t20230224_11030713.html
     • Sanctuary 6.2.1

       27 February 2023 at 12:40 pm

       "the security of a region should not be achieved by strengthening or expanding military blocs"

       Says the country launching between 18-24 new major warships a year.
       • Francesca 6.2.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 1:19 pm

         And which military bloc are you referring to?
         • Macro 6.2.1.1.1

           27 February 2023 at 3:40 pm

           FYI

           The PLA Navy has grown exponentially, with the fleet expanding by 132 warships over the past 17 years to make it the largest in the world by number — about 65% of this growth was the result of increases in missile-armed fast patrol craft and corvettes. The rate of warship production has been so high that, between 2017 and 2019, China reportedly built more warships than India, Japan, Australia, France and Britain combined.

           https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2022/08/25/asia-pacific/china-navy-taiwan/

           So peace loving….
           • adam 6.2.1.1.1.1

             27 February 2023 at 10:06 pm

             Yeah but have you seen how shit those boats are? Some are so bad a 303 round through the side will bugger them.

             Or how truly awful their aircraft carrier development is?

             Or do you wanna talk about the fact they are under crewed, lack training (based on soviet doctrine), and have never been in a combat situation?

             Or the fact they lack the electronic hardware to outfit modern warships?

             I never loss sleep over the PLA Navy, and nor should you.
             • Scud …

               1 March 2023 at 7:40 pm

               And what is your assumption base on?

               Their initial 1st type of class for some of their early war Canoes & U Boats were complete rubbish, but improve over time. With some ships now almost on par with it Western Counterparts.

               It's Carrier Fleet & its Support Group, prior to my Med Discharge back on Jul 18. Started get a few people a tad concerned at how much it had improved of such a short period of time even with using some very dated technology, & TTP's. But each yr they improve with new kit, technology & TTP's. I think that's when the penny finally some 18 to 24mths ago possible longer, that there were possibly some hired guns out there teaching them the finer points of Carrier Fleet Ops.

               Given that China has a highly successful espionage operations for both military & commercial operations.

               Current there is a number of Court Cases going on in Australia, UK, Canada IRT former 5 Eyes Fighter Pilots including some with Naval Air Warfare Training Chinese Naval & Air Force Personal on Western Airforce & Naval Air Warfare TTP's.

               Anyone writing off the Chinese Military is a fool & it's reminds me of the rubbish that the Western colonials incl the Muppets in NZ & Australia. Who said of the Japanese before World War 2, they couldn't fly planes on & off on their aircraft carriers because of their poor eyesight, couldn't shoot straight excetra excetra.
               • adam …

                 3 March 2023 at 5:42 pm

                 So where are the chips going to come from, to run all this stuff they stole with their espionage?

                 I did not write of the Chinese Military, I wrote off the PLA Navy. And when did I say anything racist like you implied? I'm disparaging of the PLA Navy because I've read China's own media, seen the specs, and can read a manual.
7. tsmithfield 7

   27 February 2023 at 9:43 am

   It isn't actually a plan though. It is more like a wish-list. A plan would specify how each of those points was to be achieved within a given time-frame.

   For instance, what does "Respecting the sovereignty of all countries" actually mean, and how would that be achieved? If China was to apply the same perspective they have on Taiwan, then this would mean Russia retreating from internationally recognised Ukrainian territory, including Crimea. But, somehow, I don't think they mean that.

   And, it looks like China is seriously considering providing leathal aid to Russia. So, it isn't clear that China is truly a good-faith actor in this conflict. It looks like China may seek to put on a cloak of plausible deniability by providing arms to Russia via its proxy, Belarus.
   • Stuart Munro 7.1

     27 February 2023 at 10:33 am

     It's a confusion of choices for China at the moment, with the twin objectives of weakening the West for future moves on Taiwan, while generating assent for moves into soft areas of Russia like Lake Baikal.

     The temptation to field test new drones must be enormous, and Russia, should it come to depend on such support, will be even more vulnerable should China begin a phase of more aggressive encroachment.
     • Sanctuary 7.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 12:47 pm

       Chinese ambition though must be tempered by the worry that much of their equipment is untested in combat. The new H-20 bomber for example might look like a B-2, but the B-2 has the RCS (Radar Cross Section) of a bee and the H-20 has the RCS of a medium sized wok. That means the B-2 can fly the entire mission without being detected, whereas the Chinese bomber can only avoid being spotted by long range air search radars – OK if you plan to stay in China and fire missiles at Taiwan, I guess. But then the venerable H-6 bombers could do that as well.

       And the new USAF B-21 Raider (nice little insider Battlestar Galactic joke when you look at it) is an order of magnitude more stealthy than the B-2.
   • Graeme 7.2

     27 February 2023 at 8:05 pm

     It isn't actually a plan though. It is more like a wish-list

     My thoughts on reading it as well. I was more reminded of this Peter Sellers piece, “Party Political Speech” from 1958

     https://youtu.be/Uw15MsGlxuc
8. Sanctuary 8

   27 February 2023 at 10:22 am

   President Xi has so far not shown any particular skill at diplomacy. IMHO, this is simply a deal the Chinese know has little chance of success. Xi's lack of imagination means the rejection of the deal will act as a fig leaf for the Chinese to begin supplying weapons to Russia. And anyway, the Chinese appear to be as puzzled as the smooth occupants of the Quai d'Orsay and the Auswärtiges Amt as to Mr. Putin's stubborn refusal to be open to sweet reason. Make no mistake, the German government if full of chinless wonders thoroughly colonised from top to bottom by Russian collaborators and spies and German society has loud elements infected by defeatism, unreasoned pacifism and reflexive anti-Americanism while the French just want a solution that will allow to get back to dealing with the Wagner group's nascent little private empire in central Africa.

   Putin is clearly completely bonkers. He is suffering from a severe case of late dictator syndrome. He has become infused with a messianic mission of revanchist Russian irridentism and imperial aggrandizement which casts himself as the leader of a heroic millenarian change which will result in a new, glorious age of Russian power where it is at the top table of the coalescing of a new world order built on authoritarianism and the diminishing and defeat of liberal democracy and the west.

   The Anglo-American guardians of the traditions of liberal democracy particularly understand the existential threat that Putin poses to them. The Eastern Europeans understand the consequences to them of Russian imperialism.

   How can this war end?

   1/ The Russian conquest of the Ukraine, which will simply create the conditions for a prolonged resistance to a savage, genocidal occupation and set the stage for a full scale showdown with fully rearmed NATO within a decade.

   2/ Putin is removed from power and some sort of negotiated solution can be arrived at with his replacement.

   3/ The Chinese preemptorily direct Putin to negotiate, at which point their arrival as the preeminent superpower alongside the USA is definitive and the Putin is reduced to a diminished dead man walking, a Chinese vassal for the taking by his enemies within the Byzantine court of the Kremlin.

   Otherwise, this war will keep escalating into an eventual shooting war between the United States and it's allies (<– that includes us) and Russia.
   • tsmithfield 8.1

     27 February 2023 at 10:36 am

     The biggest thing disauding China from supplying arms to Russia is the threat of sanctions. China is in a much worse position that Russia is in this respect. For instance, if the US cut China of from the USD it would be crippling for the Chinese economy.

     It is also very clear that China may seek to do this via Belarus. So, hopefully that potential action will be called out for what it is as well.

     The other worrying thing for NZ is that we may be required to choose a side with respect to China. And sooner than we think.
     • mikesh 8.1.1

       27 February 2023 at 1:09 pm

       Given the weapons supplied to Ukraine by the USA it seems hypocritical of Zelenskyy to try to dissuade China from supplying weapons to Russia. However I suppose one cannot blame him for trying.
       • Macro 8.1.1.1

         27 February 2023 at 1:16 pm

         In the real world, it is Russia who are the aggressor, not Ukraine. Ukraine is in the act of defending itself, and needs all the help it can get. Supplying weapons to the aggressor, enabling the continued killing of thousands of innocent people, is just as evil as being the aggressor.
       • tsmithfield 8.1.1.2

         27 February 2023 at 1:16 pm

         Except that China proclaims themselves as neutral, and is trying to push a "peace plan". Nice to be touting "peace plans" while at the same time facilitating war.
         • mikesh 8.1.1.2.1

           28 February 2023 at 10:56 am

           China is known to be an ally of Russia, and she is therefor prepared to help out by supplying weapons, but that should not stop her suggesting a peace plan. At least she is not trying to keep the war going by demanding that Ukraine not surrender, like USA and Britain.
           • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.1.2.1.1

             1 March 2023 at 11:28 pm

             The Ukrainians are the ones demanding that Ukraine doesn't surrender – they know what happens under Russian occupation. Best not to deny them agency.
             • mikesh …

               2 March 2023 at 10:27 am

               “they know what happens under Russian occupation.”

               How would they know that? They haven't been "occupied" by Russians since Tsarist times, when they were part of the Russian empire. After the 1917 revolution they continued as part of Russia until 1922, when they became the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, a separate state within the Soviet system. I don’t think they were particularly mistreated by the Tsars, or during early days of communism.

               [lprent: fixed your handle. Take a little more care please. ]
               • weka …

                 2 March 2023 at 11:19 am

                 please fix your username on next comment, and take care with your fields to avoid being caught in the new commenter filter.
               • UncookedSelachimorpha …

                 2 March 2023 at 12:37 pm

                 I spent a fair bit of time in Eastern Europe including knowing quite well various members of Polish underground / resistance to USSR during its existence. The Baltic / Western "members" of the USSR were outright occupied and subjugated by Russia.

                 Mistreatment by the Tsars and during the early days of Communism?

                 In fact there was a continuous practice of all of this.

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russification_of_Ukraine

                 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_Ukrainian_language_suppression

                 Not to mention the Holodomor – murder by starvation of literally millions of Ukrainians by the early communists.

                 Between 1917 and 1921, Ukraine briefly became an independent country and fought to retain its independence before succumbing to the Red Army and being incorporated into the Soviet Union. In the 1920s, Soviet central authorities, seeking the support of the populace, allowed for some cultural autonomy through the policy known as “indigenization.”

                 By the end of the 1920s, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin decided to curtail Ukraine’s cultural autonomy, launching the intimidation, arrest, imprisonment and execution of thousands of Ukrainian intellectuals, church leaders, as well as Communist Party functionaries who had supported Ukraine’s distinctiveness.

                 At the same time, Stalin ordered the collectivization of agriculture. The majority of Ukrainians, who were small-scale or subsistence farmers, resisted. The state confiscated the property of the independent farmers and forced them to work on government collective farms. The more prosperous farmers (owning a few head of livestock, for example) and those who resisted collectivization were branded kulaks (rich peasants) and declared enemies of the state who deserved to be eliminated as a class. Thousands were thrown out of their homes and deported.

                 …

                 The USSR vigorously denied that the Holodomor had occurred. Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the Communist Party, secret police, and government archives that have become accessible to researchers support the conclusion that the famine was caused by Soviet state policies and was indeed intentionally intensified by Soviet authorities.

                 And mass deportation of Ukrainians to Siberia and elsewhere, a practice Putin has restarted.

                 Ukraine: Russia’s unlawful transfer of civilians a war crime and likely a crime against humanity
       • SPC 8.1.1.3

         27 February 2023 at 1:18 pm

         The supply of Iranian drones to Russia was no surprise, they seek the conquest of another nation state themselves (and also arm militias that operate independently of nation state governments).

         Supplying arms to a nation invading another is complicity.

         Supplying weapons to nation that has been invaded is a recognised lawful action.
         • Sanctuary 8.1.1.3.1

           27 February 2023 at 1:38 pm

           When Putin meets the Mullahs
           • joe90 8.1.1.3.1.1

             27 February 2023 at 8:12 pm

             Indeed.

             https://twitter.com/georgian_legion/status/1628891508488261632
         • mikesh 8.1.1.3.2

           27 February 2023 at 8:24 pm

           Yes. The USA stands acquitted on a technicality.
       • UncookedSelachimorpha 8.1.1.4

         27 February 2023 at 2:36 pm

         "Given the weapons supplied to Ukraine by the USA it seems hypocritical of Zelenskyy to try to dissuade China from supplying weapons to Russia."

         That sort of false equivalence only makes sense if you ignore the fact that one party invaded the other without provocation, in order to subjugate and loot it, and not the other way around.
         • mikesh 8.1.1.4.1

           28 February 2023 at 10:09 am

           Ho hum … … … We've heard it all before.
   • mikesh 8.2

     27 February 2023 at 1:02 pm

     Putin is clearly completely bonkers.

     It is Joe Biden who is "bonkers". How many billions has he spent on a war in which America has no particular interests to defend? He seems to be driven by an irrational hatred of Russia.
     • Macro 8.2.1

       27 February 2023 at 1:09 pm

       🙄
9. adam 9

   27 February 2023 at 9:54 pm

   My take is Russia has lost a lot more men in the last week than anyone can guess.

   Putin may actually give up on his paranoid fear ridden adventures west, and move Russia to the east.

   So in how many more days till 5million barrels a day of oil fall off the world market? I see demand of the removal of sanctions, as showing that the Russians know all the western markets are dead to them.

   Really not sure China can arm Russia, they have all sorts of supply issues. Internal issues, and a leader who no one wants to tell the truth too.

   Glad these talks are happening, As I would like to see the shooting end. But I won't hold my breath.
   • Stuart Munro 9.1

     28 February 2023 at 8:13 am

     Recent events in Moldova are more consistent with Putin persisting with his ambitions.

     Moldova warns of Russian 'psy-ops' as tensions rise – BBC News
     • mikesh 9.1.1

       28 February 2023 at 10:21 am

       From the above quoted link:

       Earlier this week the Moldovan leader met US President Joe Biden, who promised to support her country's sovereignty.

       Sound familiar?

       It's difficult to know who to believe in this matter. My take is that Moldova is unlikely to attack Transnistria, knowing that Russia may retaliate, and Russia is unlikely to invade unless Molddova does so. But, who knows, Biden, aided and abetted by Victoria Nuland, may stir things up as they did in Ukraine ind 2014.
       • Stuart Munro 9.1.1.1

         28 February 2023 at 10:40 am

         Your take is willfully ill-informed. Russia is trying to topple the Moldovan government as part of its attempt to make the world safe for totalitarian despots.

         Moldovan leader outlines Russian 'plan' to topple government | AP News

         But don't let the facts get in the way of your craven support of murderous assholes.
         • mikesh 9.1.1.1.1

           28 February 2023 at 4:02 pm

           I'll believe it if and when it happens. Until then I would suggest you tone down your language. It's probably contrary to the rules of this site.
           • Stuart Munro 9.1.1.1.1.1

             28 February 2023 at 4:18 pm

             We understand – nothing is true for you unless Big Brother Putin says it's so, and sometimes not even then:

             The 2012 decree committed Russia to seeking ways to resolve the separatist issue "based on respect for the sovereignty, territorial integrity and neutral status of the Republic of Moldova in determining the special status of Transdniestria".

             …

             The order revoking the 2012 document was published on the Kremlin's website and states that the decision was taken to "ensure the national interests of Russia in connection with the profound changes taking place in international relations".

             from: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-cancels-decree-underpinning-moldovas-sovereignty-separatist-conflict-2023-02-22/

             The shackles of menkurty are nothing if not tight,
     • adam 9.1.2

       28 February 2023 at 4:55 pm

       Stuart Munro you know that Moldova is a key training ground for the FSB Federal Security Service – in particular the SRV, Foreign Intelligence Service.

       So drawing conclusions around foreign policy in relation to Moldova is risky at best. The Russians have been messing with them since the fall of the Soviet Union. For no other reason, that they can, and learnings.

       Plus I put the BBC world news service on the same page as RT. Both full of jingoistic propaganda of late, I'd recommend to read the BBC carefully.
       • Stuart Munro 9.1.2.1

         28 February 2023 at 5:17 pm

         I put the BBC world news service on the same page as RT.

         Although there has been an increase in jingoism, the requirement of a factual foundation is still observed at the Beeb – not having one will get one sacked.

         RT has only got worse since Wahl departed, there is no leavening of actual journalism in the spin. RT cares nothing for facts, only a Moscow-centric orthodoxy.
         • adam 9.1.2.1.1

           1 March 2023 at 2:34 pm

           You may want to go check the BBC world news service charter. Not the same as the BBC, so your comment

           the requirement of a factual foundation is still observed at the Beeb – not having one will get one sacked.

           'Ant so true as you think.
           • Stuart Munro 9.1.2.1.1.1

             3 March 2023 at 5:19 pm

             I have a connection well up in the BBC hierarchy – and another that reported for them – their insights are likely more robust than any charter.
       • mikesh 9.1.2.2

         1 March 2023 at 2:06 pm

         Zelenskyy has being telling us for months that if Ukraine falls Moldova will be next on the list. It sounds like the old "domino theory" that used to worry us back in the fifties. Except it's no longer the "yellow peril" that's the problem. The "red peril" has now taken its place.
         • Scud 9.1.2.2.1

           1 March 2023 at 7:48 pm

           I'll bet $1000 NZD, that Tsar Poot's will invade Moldova if & when he's mops up Ukraine?
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 9.1.2.2.2

           1 March 2023 at 11:36 pm

           Russia ending its practice of attacking its neighbours would alleviate these concerns.
           • mikesh 9.1.2.2.2.1

             2 March 2023 at 10:50 am

             I doubt there will be any “alleviation of concerns” until the evil empire from across the sea desists from sticking its nose in the affairs of other countries.

             "To be an enemy of America is dangerous. To be an ally of America is fatal." – Henry Kissinger
             • UncookedSelachimorpha …

               2 March 2023 at 12:40 pm

               American aggression bad, so Russian aggression good.

               Understood.
         • Stuart Munro 9.1.2.2.3

           3 March 2023 at 5:22 pm

           Current Russian activities in Moldova are likely aimed at further tying up Ukrainian forces. If Ukraine fell, Moldova would likely surrender peaceably, not being big enough to deal with a failed state as large as Putin's.
10. Ad 10

    27 February 2023 at 10:04 pm

    Wouch Ukraine just lost Bakhmut.
    • mikesh 10.1

      28 February 2023 at 10:32 am

      Is this true, or is it just Russian propaganda?
11. Obtrectator 11

    27 February 2023 at 10:31 pm

    As soon as I read Point 1 in Mr Xi’s “plan” I figured we might as well not bother reading the rest. “Respecting the sovereignty of all countries”? China knows a lot about that. Ask the Taiwanese, the Hong Kongers, any Indians around in 1962 … and yes, why not? – the Tibetans.
    • mikesh 11.1

      28 February 2023 at 10:30 am

      The Taiwanese agree that they are part of China; they just don't agree that the CCP have the right to govern the combined country. Hong Kong was handed over to China, by Britain, in 1997, in pursuance of an earlier agreement between the two countries. I doubt whether Tibet is particularly bothered by being a part of China.

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