Written By: - Date published: 11:43 am, August 20th, 2008 - 50 comments
Categories: climate change, flip-flop, national -
Tags: Kyoto, trust
John Key called us to task in his interview with Wammo today:
“every leftwing blogger out there has a field-day going on and on about the fact that Labour say I said climate change is a hoax…they should just get their facts right down at The Standard because the facts are I said ‘Kyoto is a hoax’”.*
OK, fair enough. The full quote in question is:
“This is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so. The impact of the Kyoto Protocol, even if one believes in global warming—and I am somewhat suspicious of it—is that we will see billions and billions of dollars poured into fixing something that we are not even sure is a problem”
(Hansard 10 May 2005, the online database isn’t working today)
So, Kyoto (the product of a decade of negotiations by tens of thousands of diplomats representing nearly 200 countries backed by the largest independent scientific body ever, the IPCC, and signed by nearly 200 governments) is a hoax and climate change may be some kind of a con, something that one needs to be ‘somewhat suspicious of’ and ‘we are not even sure is a problem’. Key was not the only senior Nat who thought this way (English, L Smith, Williamson, Carter, Hayes, Connell). They’ve publicly flip-flopped on climate change now, but who knows what they really believe?
Sorry, John. In future, we’ll endeavour to quote you in full.
[*Key then goes on to confirm that he believes Kyoto is a hoax, raising obvious questions about his party's commitment to meeting our Kyoto obligations.]
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Scoopit!
Then join your union Dad. Everyone’s welcome.
Tane already signed up for bloggers union enforcer and village idiot when required.
From the 10 May 2005 hansard: ” Yet here we are down in New Zealand, a very little country with about 0.2 percent of the world’s emissions, putting a self-imposed straitjacket on our businesses, and waving a huge flag that says: “Foreign investment, don’t come anywhere near us. Australia is over there—the West Island. Go over there to pour your dollars in.’ To the Chinese we are saying: “Come in and buy as much coal as you like from our West Coast. We’ll sell it to you and you can burn it without a carbon charge—but, by the way, to those back here in Aotearoa New Zealand we will be slapping on a carbon charge and you won’t be able to operate.’
This is a complete and utter hoax, if I may say so.”
parliament.nz/en-NZ/PB/Debates/Debates/3/2/8/47HansD_20050510_00001115-Climate-Change-Response-Amendment-Bill-First.htm
I adore how all you Kyoto defenders are ignoring, over and over again, the fact that New Zealanders were initially told by Labour that we would stand to make a net profit from signing which of course turned out to be anything but reality.
To think these are the people we trust to run the country, and they can make such a monumental stuff up – and their supporters bury their heads in the sand over it. Stupendous!
To think these are the people we trust to run the country, and they can make such a monumental stuff up – and their supporters bury their heads in the sand over it.
Say Dean, do you have a cry every time Treasury gets a prediction wrong by a Billion or two?
“Say Dean, do you have a cry every time Treasury gets a prediction wrong by a Billion or two?”
It’s everyone else’s fault – NEVER the governments. Except the previous government, who are to blame for everything ministers cannot blame on the staff they are in charge of.
TPF was only guilty of trying to help. Nothing more. I love how you Labour supporters choose to ignore that one too – in fact, I bet you just pretend it never ever happened. After all, he was a union man.
Helen never leaks. By definition she cannot.
Really, r0b. I know you used to work for her, but your fauning is getting a little pathetic. We both know if the tables were turned, and the baby eating National party were in power, you’d be calling for their blood over such a gross miscalculation.
You may very well be fooling yourself, but you’re not fooling anyone with any kind of neutral viewpoint on the matter.
PS: off topic but I would be interested in your opinion – yesterday Laila Harre was on the radio, and even she admitted that Labour was utterly misguided passing the EFB. Is she a hater and/or a wrecker too?
[lprent: About r0b. I've met r0b - he isn't the Rob Salmond who runs 08wire.
As usual WhaleOil is blowing crap out of his arse. But I've come to expect that many people who read some of the right-wing blogs appear to have a very high sucker quotient. They seem to believe almost any crap if it fits their prejudices.
I thought you were less credulous that that. ]
Dean,
Your accusation might carry some merit IF you could:
1) Identify the exact nature of the mistake that lead to the incorrect Kyoto obligation for NZ.
2) Identify WHO made the error and why.
Surprise me.
It’s everyone else’s fault – NEVER the governments.
Oh no I’m sure it’s Helen Clark’s fault personally that the initial Kyoto prediction was wrong. She probably forgot to carry the three. What was she thinking?!
Really, r0b. I know you used to work for her
Apparently Dean you don’t know squat. I can state quite categorically that I have never worked for Helen Clark. If you happen to subscribe to poor Whale’s theory as to my sooper sekrit real world identity then you’re as sadly stoopid as the Whale himself.
PS: off topic but I would be interested in your opinion – yesterday Laila Harre was on the radio, and even she admitted that Labour was utterly misguided passing the EFB. Is she a hater and/or a wrecker too?
Not as far as I know Dean. Do you think she might be part of John Key’s plan to reduce worker’s wages?
Kyoto was an agreement reached by 200 countries 15 years ago, and National was the then Govt. SO YOU RIGHT WING NUTS it wasn’t Labour who initially proposed the Kyoto protocol – it was Simon Upton who was the then Minister for the Environment who agreed to the Protocol that was then Ratified by Labour.
The reasons for the projected $500 mill cost (rather than windfall) are many and varied – Shane Austin driving his tractor up the steps of Parliament being one (ie the Carbon Tax was unpopular) – and so we as a country must wear the cost of Dairy farmers Carbon emissions. And they say our farmers are unsubsidised!! RUBBISH.
We haven’t been too smart about planting trees. You could say these are govt policies – or lack of. I don’t see anything from National that would make any difference here either.
The Kyoto protocol in theory is a decent one. The problem is that the worlds biggest polluters have not signed up to it. USA and China produce well over half the worlds emissions, but are not in Kyoto. So therefore, nothing the other 200 odd countries does will make one bit of difference to the CO2 emissions of the world.
New Zealand has 0.1 of 1% of the world’s population, and accounts for 0.1 of 1% of global emissions
“If all countries in the world were to emit CO2 at levels similar to New Zealand’s, we (The UN) would exceed our sustainable carbon budget by approximately 246%.”
http://hdrstats.undp.org/countries/country_fact_sheets/cty_fs_NZL.html
So in a nut shell … I don’t think that paying a half billion dollars when we are totally insignificant in the worlds Co2 emissions is well spent!
More than just ourselves has to be considered in relation to GHG emissions. If we (developed nations) keep to our word then other nations are more likely to believe us in the future as well as follow suit. It’s called leading by example and has been a prime component of every single management course I’ve been on over the last 20 years. Instigating an ETS that is globally recognised will help the entire world bring those emissions under control simply because we will be seen to not only advocate reducing GHG emissions but also actively doing so.
And, as has already been said, the only reason why it’s costing us that much is because of political opposition by those most likely to be affected by any legislation that tries to control GHGs – ie, by people who think that they shouldn’t have to pay for the damage that they cause.
Andrew, we’re one of the worst countries in the world for Co2 emissions per capita.
New Zealand has 0.1 of 1% of the world’s population, and accounts for 0.1 of 1% of global emissions
That’s certainly not true. I believe we emit, per capita, eight times as much as China. We can hardly claim to have any green credentials if we pretend what we’re doing isn’t contributing to the problem because of scale.
The only way something like this can change, globally, is with widespread participation. You’ll notice that the US is the only developed country that hasn’t joined now – the pressure certainly is on (and luckily for the rest of us, it is joining up, state by state) them and the developing world. What you’re basically saying is “Can’t someone else do it?” Thankfully our leaders aren’t so inclined.
“Matthew Pilott – That’s certainly not true”
That certainly is true! … Those figures are straight from the United Nations. Check it out for yourself.
“Oh no I’m sure it’s Helen Clark’s fault personally that the initial Kyoto prediction was wrong. She probably forgot to carry the three. What was she thinking?!”
Who knows what she was thinking? Probably only H2, the most powerful non elected member of government this country has ever seen. You know – the woman who was refused by the electorate every time she stood?
“Apparently Dean you don’t know squat. I can state quite categorically that I have never worked for Helen Clark. If you happen to subscribe to poor Whale’s theory as to my sooper sekrit real world identity then you’re as sadly stoopid as the Whale himself.”
I don’t even read his weblog. On this occasion I must be mistaken and obviously was confusing you with someone else. My apologies.
“Not as far as I know Dean. Do you think she might be part of John Key’s plan to reduce worker’s wages?”
Oh, quite probably. Say, have you ever gotten over the EB distributing pamplets? Those naughty, bereft of chins wearers of scarves certainly had you and the party you belong to in quite the hissy fit a while ago. Thank god for the EFB, because now the sanctity of our electoral process is safeguarded!
On this occasion I must be mistaken and obviously was confusing you with someone else. My apologies.
Cheers Dean, apology accepted, and my apologies too for my phrasing, I was apparently in a grumpy mood last night. And as for the rest, I’m not in the mood for further sparring, so goodnight.