Open mike 22/02/2019

130 comments on “Open mike 22/02/2019 ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   22 February 2019 at 7:21 am

   I know TRP thinks the Guardian is the font of all knowledge from the UK, but the anti-Brexit partisanship of the liberal urban elites is reaching a fever pitch of hysteria.

   Chief amongst these neolib Blairite apologists is Polly Toynbee, who wrote a most amazing column today that recklessly calls for an elite coup against the Brexit referendum result.

   Let’s make no mistake – she is calling for a coup. She wants the Westminster political class – mostly members of the Oxbridge elite like her – to walk away from the manifesto promises they were elected on the ensure that the UK does not leave the E.U.

   Toynbee is an old woman (72) and a noted turncoat from the days of the SDP split (which guaranteed Thatcher’s majority for a decade) but even for a spiteful old woman this call for a palace coup and elite seizure of power is extraordinary.

   Whatever you think of the economic and social consequences of Brexit, it will amount to the most crushing defeat of the hegemony of the Oxbridge leadership class in a century – a breaking that the UK badly needs, since that class’s leadership has been calamitous for the fortunes of that country.

   In a sense, Toynbee is right – Brexit will define the British political struggle for a generation or more – and her class will be sidelined from that struggle, and she loathes that idea more than anything else.

   https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/brexit-two-party-system-mps-independent-group
   • Gabby 1.1

     22 February 2019 at 8:20 am

     T’ponies aren’t going back down t’mines no matter how long you hold your breath sanky.
   • Psycho Milt 1.2

     22 February 2019 at 8:41 am

     It’s not Polly Toynbee’s fault that Corbyn has had no leadership to offer for the last couple of years because he’s on the same side as May on this issue. That lack of leadership is reflected in the polls – Labour should have been giving the Tories a hiding the last couple of years, but are about equal with them in the polls, which reflects its performance being as woeful as the Tories’.

     Whatever you think of the economic and social consequences of Brexit, it will amount to the most crushing defeat of the hegemony of the Oxbridge leadership class in a century…

     I can never follow this concept that a country being plunged into economic disaster and misery is a good thing because misery will make people rise up against their political masters. Go out and try to sell that one to voters, if you dare.
     • AB 1.2.1

       22 February 2019 at 9:47 am

       “Corbyn has had no leadership to offer for the last couple of years”
       I hear this a bit – Corbyn lacks leadership.What does leadership look like under these circumstances? Is ‘leadership’ just shorthand for calling for a 2nd referendum in the hope of stopping Brexit?
       In a way I hope he would do this – rather than insist he can negotiate a better deal than May, which seems rather unlikely given Europe’s determination to make it difficult. I think it would probably increase his appeal to the electorate. There is a lot to dislike about the EU – especially the insistence on austerity at its deprived margins. But maybe Corbyn should back-burner those concerns for now because it is essential to kill the Tories.
       • McFlock 1.2.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 1:29 pm

         too late for a referendum to be organised.

         The options are to crash out, take whatever the EU offered on the hope it’s still on the table, or cancel Brexit.
         • Gosman 1.2.1.1.1

           22 February 2019 at 2:53 pm

           You missed the delay for a bit longer. That is probably the most likely one at this stage.
           • McFlock 1.2.1.1.1.1

             22 February 2019 at 3:08 pm

             Fair call.

             But like taking the offer, delay is contingent on EU agreement, which might put constraints on that option.

             So still a pool of shit no matter what the UK pollies choose.
             • Gosman …

               22 February 2019 at 3:14 pm

               Yes, it’s great fun watching all sides turn themselves in to pretzels trying to square the Brexit circle.
       • Gosman 1.2.1.2

         22 February 2019 at 2:52 pm

         How has the EU made it difficult for the UK?
         • AB 1.2.1.2.1

           22 February 2019 at 4:45 pm

           Let me re-phrase that. The EU has made it difficult for May to cherry-pick the bits the Tories want – such as no freedom of movement for people but with unrestricted access to markets for goods and services.
     • Sanctuary 1.2.2

       22 February 2019 at 10:32 am

       Corbyn’s teams sole mission is to make sure Brexit is owned 100% by the Tories, keep the spotlight on them and simultaneously try and keep their own equally split party out of the headlines – especially important for a Corbyn led Labour because the left-policing liberal elites like Toynbee and the Labour “centrists” (who basically want a continuation of Thatcherism with diversity quotas) hate Corbyn even more than they do Brexit. Just look at how the self-styled “independent group” has switched the media circus back to Labour, and given the Oxbridge class another chance to write another round of wildly imtemperate attack pieces and to smear Corbyn. It isn’t like he isn’t constantly smeared by the Murdoch papers as well.. oh wait…

       The thing to remember about the polls is Labour was miles behind in 2017 until the rules around fair reporting kicked in and then they almost won, so given the hysterical tone of the establishment media opposition to Corbyn plus the redtops I reckon level pegging is a bit of a miracle.

       Secondly, if you haven’t noticed the UK is currently in an existential crisis, a crisis a century in the making and a crisis entirely the making of an utterly decadent class structure that hasn’t changed since the 1870s. Brexit won’t plunge the UK into “…into economic disaster and misery…” – the underlying economic crisis that put in train Brexit has been brewing for forty years and has been exacerbated by the squandering of North Sea oil wealth and a failure (at the behest of finance) to deal with the consequences of an over-inflated currency on the competitiveness of British industry.

       Britain is facing a very bleak future with or without Brexit unless something fundamental changes. Even without Brexit it is an over-populated island with exhausted natural resources, facing an existential identity crisis, and an economy entirely reliant on a narrow, London based, bloated and corrupt financial sector and ruled over by a decadent elite comprising a recklessly irresponsible ruling elite propped up by a smug, out of touch and complacent (neo) liberal middle class.
       • Gosman 1.2.2.1

         22 February 2019 at 2:55 pm

         Such old school socialist thinking. The UK is much more than a London based financial sector. There are in fact huge amounts of innovative and creative businesses that have sprung up over the past 30 to 40 years.
       • sumsuch 1.2.2.2

         23 February 2019 at 3:14 am

         Having been brought up on Carlyle’s difficult-to-survive sentences I really must drape my head in salute to your last over-stuffed magnificence.
       • Bearded Git 1.2.2.3

         23 February 2019 at 5:03 am

         Lovely writing Sanc….and I 90% agree
     • CHCoff 1.2.3

       22 February 2019 at 8:40 pm

       It strikes me as pandora’s box stuff via myopic unaccountability.

       A mistake of ideological shadows for the prudence of yesteryears.
   • RedLogix 1.3

     22 February 2019 at 9:10 am

     but even for a spiteful old woman

     Evidently respect for age and experience is not a feature of this world you live in,

     Quite a few people here indulge in this ageist bashing as if they never plan on being old themselves. And even then as an identity group it’s an especially daft one at best.
   • Anne 1.4

     22 February 2019 at 9:41 am

     Sanctuary, I’m in my 70s and I’m far from old in thought or deed. Nor am I spiteful and never have been.

     Please be more careful with your phrasing eh?
     • JanM 1.4.1

       22 February 2019 at 9:57 am

       Well said Anne – I too belong in that age group and found that description quite hurtful. At 73 I don’t think of myself as old and ready to be written off on that basis
       • ianmac 1.4.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 10:24 am

         In my late 70s methinks that this Middle age is OK. That kid Simon is spiteful though and he is only 40ish.
         • Sanctuary 1.4.1.1.1

           22 February 2019 at 10:35 am

           Yes, let’s all police the identity politics. Much easier than dealing with fact or the Brexit crisis.
           • marty mars 1.4.1.1.1.1

             22 February 2019 at 11:11 am

             It’s got nothing to do with identity politics dick, it’s basic manners.
           • mauī 1.4.1.1.1.2

             22 February 2019 at 12:02 pm

             I now tend to think of people as being of undefined gender, race, culture and an age as this means no offence can be taken. There are many ways this can be translated into speech, such as, “so you are a Grey Power member of mixed age?” or “ah.. the man of mixed race?” or “Oh sorry, I’m meaning the entity of mixed age, random culture and unidentified gender.”
         • alwyn 1.4.1.1.2

           22 February 2019 at 2:02 pm

           Unfortunately you, like I, are in the same age bracket as Michael Cullen.
           Now there is a spiteful and bitter old man. He still hasn’t got over the fact that New Zealand dumped him and his ilk because there was a far better option available.
           He is still taking digs at John Key, in spite of all the kind things the Key Government did for him.
           • Stuart Munro 1.4.1.1.2.1

             22 February 2019 at 2:24 pm

             What nonsense you talk.

             Cullen is the best finance minister NZ has had since the Savage administration, admittedly a mighty low bar.

             The Key government on the other hand was morally and intellectually bankrupt – the hordes of foreigners they brought in were the only way their backward, irresponsible and frequently corrupt policies could be faked up as GDP growth.

             The biggest failing of the coalition to date is not throwing the crooks in jail. SCF, Christchurch, a number of irrigation schemes and financial improprieties in respect of the soft loans to Mediaworks would have had those responsible locked up in most countries with any pretense to a rule of law.
             • Gosman …

               22 February 2019 at 2:57 pm

               Really??? Can you give me the names of these countries where the members of the last government would have been locked up by now?
               • Sabine …

                 22 February 2019 at 4:26 pm

                 i hear the chinese government tents to kill high ranking officers that are caught double dipping, or defrauding the government, or for any other corruption if it finds it needy.

                 wonder if someone like the double dipper would have been left to ‘reorganise’ their affairs after being caught defrauding the government for personal gain?
                 • Gosman …

                   22 February 2019 at 5:43 pm

                   The Chinese government doesn’t change ruling parties very much in case you missed it. 😉🤣
                   • Sabine …

                     22 February 2019 at 5:52 pm

                     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_China

                     yes dear.
                 • Stuart Munro …

                   22 February 2019 at 5:46 pm

                   The pattern I saw when I was in China suggests that someone like Bill would have been imprisoned for a couple of years, and taught a trade like hairdressing or floristry, and told – “don’t let us catch you screwing up again”.
               • Stuart Munro …

                 22 February 2019 at 5:41 pm

                 The Korean prosecution service enjoys the power to imprison former politicians while it completes its investigations, which was found necessary to prevent them running around ‘tidying up’ after investigations begin. They also routinely select politicians to audit on the basis of anomalous growth of net wealth. It is safe to say that under Korean justice, a thoroughly corrupt operator like Key would be spending the next two decades minimum, in durance vile.

                 Of course most of the Key administration’s crimes have not been properly investigated. But SCF stands out, the misappropriation of the assets of one of the wealthiest and most astute self-made businesspeople in the South Island, without a whiff of legal process. Hubbard’s only error was in reposing any trust in the likes of Key and English, who stripped him of his wealth and did him to death as cynically as Stalin did to the kulaks.

                 You follow politics to some degree Gosman – you know damned well which of the Gnats are as crooked as dogs’ hind legs. Key’s insider trading in railway shares alone would’ve sufficed to have him in prison in the US.
                 • Gosman …

                   22 February 2019 at 5:45 pm

                   Why isn’t the current government pursuing him then? Are they just as corrupt?
                   • Stuart Munro …

                     22 February 2019 at 5:52 pm

                     I doubt it – but I believe that there is a very unhealthy convention, of not going after the crooks in previous governments, which is part of the reason we have such high levels of entrenched systemic corruption.

                     The China Investment Bank is another example – created to provide sinecures for the likes of Jenny Shipley, it will never return value on a par with its start up costs to NZ unless it is run by qualified and experienced financial managers instead of politicised primary teachers.
             • alwyn …

               22 February 2019 at 4:13 pm

               “admittedly a mighty low bar”.
               Indeed yes. I’m sure you will excuse my laughter at the thought that Walter Nash is your examplar of a great Finance Minister?
               On the other hand he was certainly better than Michael.
               But then anyone would have been better that Michael.
               Let us just say that Walter was better than 3 or 4 of those since 1935.
               Certainly he was better than Muldoon, Peters and Cullen. Perhaps there is another one.
               • Stuart Munro …

                 22 February 2019 at 5:25 pm

                 No, let us not say “anyone would’ve been better than Michael”.

                 There’s no room for lies that fatuous.

                 And before you have go at Nash, you’d do well to recall that he managed a housing scheme that dwarfs anything a New Zealand government has run since, without creating problems on the finance end.

                 Cullen was and remains infinitely better than the much lauded but frankly fucking hopeless Bill English for example. If you read MSM descriptions of English you’d’ve thought he was the fucking messiah – but outside our goldfish bowl no-one ever heard of him and no-one wanted a bar of him, which is why he had to shoot through to Oz to get a job with Nathans after he finally destroyed his political career.

                 English never met a single Treasury target and they had nothing but praise for him; Cullen invariably outperformed their predictions – and they hated him for it – he repeatedly proved their incompetence. The only pity is that he didn’t sack most of them, it’s the most overstaffed and least productive outfit in the civil service – and that includes the farcically inept Immigration service.
           • sumsuch 1.4.1.1.2.2

             23 February 2019 at 3:22 am

             ‘Spiteful and bitter’ ? Satisfied to the point of ‘self’.
       • greywarshark 1.4.1.2

         22 February 2019 at 10:42 am

         What a bunch of old farts. Whining and demanding Extreme Respect just because you are old. Old people who care about the world and other people can’t afford to be PC. And can’t demand to be regarded as saint-like and above approach. I hate smarmy saints; give them a few transgressions so that real aware humans can integrate with them and understand each other and the complex world that it always has been.

         Sanctuary often goes OTT. It’s not fair Sanctuary to call Toynbee spiteful and old; either would convey an aspect to be considered. It seems when you get old the essence of meanness and selfishness in you concentrates, or you wake up from Rip Van Winkle state, start, and gather yourself for a foray into things. By the way I turned 77 this month. So i know something about the world and being old.
         
         • cleangreen 1.4.1.2.1

           22 February 2019 at 5:53 pm

           greywarshark,

           With that group of ‘old farts’ no-one should afford some respect to them as they are always running down all those who they don’t see eye to eye with, and they don’t show respect for others either.
           • greywarshark 1.4.1.2.1.1

             22 February 2019 at 6:47 pm

             Many of us are old farts only in patches. My thought is that we had all last century with things getting better for us and ignored warnings that should have prompted us to do some thinking about our own and society’s directions.

             In this century we can’t sit back in our comfy chairs and and behave like little lords and ladies, and let the world go by. We’ve had a hand in making this present debacle, and anyone ‘old’ who isn’t concerned about doing some hard yakka from time to time and putting up with some language that’s off-side, aren’t responding to the call to duty. Goodwill to the young and the planet that birthed us demands it.
             • patricia bremner …

               22 February 2019 at 8:12 pm

               1000%
               • greywarshark …

                 22 February 2019 at 8:27 pm

                 Thanks patricia. I appreciate your opinion, so when you don’t agree or want to add something to things I say, please pass the thought on.
                 • patricia bremner …

                   22 February 2019 at 10:08 pm

                   I agree we are all guilty of not paying attention to the warnings of scientists and people out in the field. Being precious about getting old is just a distraction. We have not been good guardians. That is a hard sad truth. We need to work at what we personally can do to turn things around. Cheers Greywarshark.
     • WeekendWarrior 1.4.2

       22 February 2019 at 10:19 am

       Jeez, try being pale, male, stale. Then you become fair game for discrimination, with no argument allowed.
     • Gabby 1.4.3

       22 February 2019 at 4:09 pm

       Yebbit you’re not Polly Toynbee are you. Or ARE you?
   • te reo putake 1.5

     22 February 2019 at 10:24 am

     Thanks to the commenters who pointed out that there was no need for the gender based sentence. I’d like to think we’re all capable of formulating our criticisms in a way that is respectful, thoughtful and nuanced. A big ask, sometimes, I know, but we should aim higher than other, lesser blogs, I reckon.

     And, Sanctuary, the Grauniad is No3 on my list of go to media outlets, behind the Morning Star and Private Eye. However, the Guardian is far easier to link to than the other two, so it’s the one I use most often as a resource for posting here.
     • veutoviper 1.5.1

       22 February 2019 at 11:24 am

       I agree with the fact that the Grauniad is easier to download. Similarly, my first blog visit each morning is now PG’s – because he is an early riser as are some of his commenters. So, by the time I am surfacing , PG has usually already posted about the news stories of the day and it saves me searching! I then go and read his links rather than his abridged versions and the comments.

       Since a certain departure, TS tends to get off to slower (more civilised?) starts these days like myself. LOL.
       • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 2:13 pm

         “Departure“? Sounds like landlord spin. Wouldn’t ‘permanent eviction‘ be more accurate?

         I understand that permanent ban was welcomed by some who still seem to find it a source of amusement (LOL) – not so keen on post-facto ridicule myself.

         While not a cheerleader for Ed’s ‘style’, some of the links they posted were useful to me. I personally found their presence on The Standard less irritating than (say) James, or Bewildered, or Shadrach, or BM, or Alwyn, or Naki man, or infused, or Tuppence Shrewsbury, whose ‘contributions’ to yesterday’s ‘Tax Working Group Proposals’ post ‘helped’ to dampen down ‘echos’.

         “It’s simply too much. North Americans consume 638 per cent more meat than the planet can handle, with livestock responsible for about 8 per cent of U.S. greenhouse gas emissions owing to burping cows, manure management, and other factors. The world as a whole is at nearly triple its meat carrying capacity according the EAT-Lancet report that outlines the planetary health plate diet.”

         https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2019/02/i-cant-eat-much-meat-on-the-planetary-health-diet-but-im-feeling-better-when-i-do/
         • greywarshark 1.5.1.1.1

           22 February 2019 at 8:32 pm

           I like Bobby McFerrin. He sings ‘So your rent is late, The landlord says he’ll have to lift the gate. Don’t Worry Be Happy.’
           • Drowsy M. Kram 1.5.1.1.1.1

             22 February 2019 at 8:48 pm

             “Don’t Worry, Be Happy” is good advice, so thanks for that Grey.

             As the hourglass runs out I’m tending to ‘worry’ even less about myself and more about others – an ‘advantage’ of age and ‘life perspective’.

             Quack quack: https://www.blogthings.com/whatsyourlifeperspectivequiz/
             • greywarshark …

               22 February 2019 at 9:02 pm

               Yes, TS saves my sanity knowing that there are other people thinking about others, reporting on what is being done to help, and doing what they can.
   • sumsuch 1.6

     23 February 2019 at 3:08 am

     Never read her Pa, Arnold. What would he think?
2. WeTheBleeple 2

   22 February 2019 at 7:22 am

   Rain today. Farmers will forget they had a drought by tomorrow.

   All entirely avoidable. Even flood proofing is possible.

   Embrace change and save the farm.
   • Gabby 2.1

     22 February 2019 at 8:14 am

     Oma comin’ yo.
     • Anne 2.1.1

       22 February 2019 at 11:23 am

       Well, she’s just giving us a quick flick with her long tail. I fear it won’t be enough for some places, but others might get a bit of a bollocking if a deep low forms to the east of us. 🙂
   • Sabine 2.2

     22 February 2019 at 8:18 am

     if the ‘farmers’ aka those that specialise in resource extraction forget the drought by tomorrow they will be reminded next week that todays piddle was not enough.
   • patricia bremner 2.3

     22 February 2019 at 9:36 am

     Thanks WTB, What we used to call mixed farming using natural rotations. Cheers.
   • greywarshark 2.4

     22 February 2019 at 10:58 am

     WtB Very timely thinking thanks for link. See email.
3. James 3

   22 February 2019 at 7:28 am

   https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12206085

   Hooton nails it. The capital gains tax is dead on arrival.

   As I’ve said many times before – I can’t wait for labour to campaign on it.

   Jacinda will go down in history as a 1 term PM (and not a good one at that)
   • Bazza64 3.1

     22 February 2019 at 7:52 am

     I think Labour will propose to bring in a watered down version of the recommendation, most likely the rate payable will be 15% to 20% maximum or inflation indexed. Just a political reality as they will need NZF on board with this one.
     • Roflcopter 3.1.1

       22 February 2019 at 9:09 am

       Still won’t appeal to the middle class.

       Anything, other than a total rejection by Labour, will consign them to history.
       • greywarshark 3.1.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 11:00 am

         Nothing appeals to the middle class who don’t think about the reality of the economy or politics and have $signs in their irises.
         • Roflcopter 3.1.1.1.1

           22 February 2019 at 11:49 am

           So the middle class are the “rich pricks” now, by your reckoning.
           • left_forward 3.1.1.1.1.1

             22 February 2019 at 12:01 pm

             Grey is referring to the middle classes who aspire to be like the ‘rich pricks’, so they support tax policies that only advantage the ‘rich pricks’, even when it doesn’t benefit them directly.

             This is akin to non-wealthy people buying expensive lotto tickets even though the chances of winning anything is less than miniscule, and even if they do happen to win they realise that doesn’t bring them happiness either.
           • greywarshark 3.1.1.1.1.2

             22 February 2019 at 3:47 pm

             Is that you reckon I said by your reckoning?
           • cleangreen 3.1.1.1.1.3

             22 February 2019 at 6:00 pm

             Roflcopter

             ‘Middle class’ numbers have been shrinking after 2008 if you haven’t noticed?

             Now the lower class is much larger now and the remainder “middle class” are now rich as part of the 10% and we are all part of the remainder 90% who are poorer then we were 10 yrs ago.
       • Tuppence Shrewsbury 3.1.1.2

         22 February 2019 at 12:13 pm

         Labour needs to make the argument about the reduction in income tax for the lower and middle class that can come about as a result of this. How they’ll now be able to afford indexing tax bands for inflation. Make it a tax cut argument rather than a higher tax nightmare
       • sumsuch 3.1.1.3

         23 February 2019 at 3:37 am

         Anything but confronting the skiing and would-be-skiing middle class will put the kiss on the death of Labour. But they can off-lay this onto NZ First this time.

         Confrontation of the parasite, subservient class born of freemarket/ rule of the jungle 84 will be hard to avoid to restore a fair society.
   • bwaghorn 3.2

     22 February 2019 at 7:58 am

     Duncan Garner has come out all guns blazing in full support . I know wtf.
     This is a slam dunk James old boy .
     hooton has know credibility in this country.
   • ScottGN 3.3

     22 February 2019 at 8:03 am

     Rather than slobbering over Hooten’s partisan nonsense you could read Liam Dann and get an idea of what the government is most likely going to do?

     https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12205998
   • marty mars 3.4

     22 February 2019 at 8:12 am

     Yeah hollow man hooton knows lol what a tosspot James try hard. Hooton is a nothing that nobodies listen to – he’s an egg. A hollow plastic pretend chocolate egg.
     • Gabby 3.4.1

       22 February 2019 at 8:24 am

       Hootie Blowhard dreads the tax he’d pay when he offloads Excretium. Not sure he needs to worry too much.
       • left_forward 3.4.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 12:08 pm

         Lol – is that the name of his boat!
     • greywarshark 3.4.2

       22 February 2019 at 11:01 am

       And not a Kinder one at all.
       • marty mars 3.4.2.1

         22 February 2019 at 11:08 am

         nice 🙂
   • Gabby 3.5

     22 February 2019 at 8:22 am

     They just need to reassure Slick that he won’t have to pay tax on selling the house he lives in, just the other ones.
   • Sabine 3.6

     22 February 2019 at 8:28 am

     how many properties and business investment does Hooton have to be frothing at the mouth at a recommendation that has yet to pass to law?

     Still talking up that boy with the sausage sizzler? the one with multiple ownership of properties and the likes?

     Does it occur to you that many people in this country don’t own multiple investments and thus are fairly nonplussed that the rich and the very rich have to pay tax on income derived from investment and the likes just like a kid has to pay taxes on his / her paper run?

     oh, you own a large property you said, you might be eligible? Bummer dude.

     As for Jacinda Ardern being a one term Prime Minister for wanting to levy taxes aimed squarely at her income and investment class, your No Mates Party needs a quick overhaul, cause the current lot is useless, vile, unattractive, unlikable, sexist, dumb and uninspired and has an approval of some 6 % as ‘preferred PM’.

     I would say that you just get used to the idea that when you sell your property (and if you only own a ‘family home’ you might even find you are exempt) that you might have to pay a Capital Gain Tax on the profits and find something else to whine about.

     oh i get it, you are a temporarily embarrassed millionaire in the making and this tax would not apply to you at all today but maybe in a gazillion years when you are all grown up and rich, and then you would of course not want to pay that tax. I get it. Its future proofing with you. 🙂
   • Psycho Milt 3.7

     22 February 2019 at 8:51 am

     Hooton nails it. The capital gains tax is dead on arrival.

     People who think “the kiwi way of life” involves owning multiple investment properties will certainly do their damnedest to ensure it is, but they won’t necessarily succeed.

     The great majority of voters don’t have investments to pay tax on. The government can pitch this to that great majority on the basis that the wealthy who’ve been avoiding taxes will have to pay some, while the people who work for a living will get an income tax cut. The only thing that will make that an uphill struggle is lying propaganda from Simon and co, and the fact that Winston First is beholden to its donors.
     • ianmac 3.7.1

       22 February 2019 at 10:28 am

       For Hooton to be this excited suggests an aura of fear for himself and for his client base. Like Simon Over The Top?
     • greywarshark 3.7.2

       22 February 2019 at 11:04 am

       It will have an effect. A damper on the idea that NZ is wiiiiiide open to every money-making schemer, and hopefully we will soon lose our supremacy as being the easiest country in the world to start a business. We have enough of the shams and scams and buying a house as a way of turning promises into real estate. Money is just promises in token or written form, it may not even be good for starting fires.
     • KJT 3.7.3

       22 February 2019 at 5:56 pm

       Where was Hooten when National extended CGT, with the bright line test.

       Is it only a problem when Labour does it?
   • Ankerrawshark 3.8

     22 February 2019 at 8:52 am

     James, Jacinda will go down in history as a 1term PM and not a good one at that……

     Ha ha ha ha ha. That is the level of response your comment deserves.
   • patricia bremner 3.9

     22 February 2019 at 9:40 am

     Hooten is such a fount of knowledge!! sarc..
     Hysterical screamer would be closer to the truth. He really screams when losing it. Kathryn Ryan has been known to tell him to tone it down when he lost the plot.
   • AB 3.10

     22 February 2019 at 10:09 am

     The govt will come out with something minor – maybe just extend the brightline test on property sales to 10 or 20 years and leave the sale of businesses alone for now. It will look all balanced and reasonable.
     The key is to move the public discourse in the right direction. Overcoming the initial inertia is the big challenge, but once it’s moving then it’s easier to eventually get somewhere near where you need to be. Overton windows are like gummed-up ranchsliders – it takes sh*tloads of CRC and pushing at the start.
     So you’ll keep James, you’ll keep.
4. Sanctuary 4

   22 February 2019 at 8:14 am

   The ridiculous comments from Simon Bridges, which has seen him lampooned about what actually constitutes “the Kiwi way of life”, will have the Gnats fuming. Instead of talking about a CGT, his hamfistedness has got people talking about how out of touch he is.
   • veutoviper 4.1

     22 February 2019 at 8:51 am

     He is a complete embarrassment to them – long may it last.

     Talking about the Kiwi way of life, Amy Adams was interviewed by Guyon Espiner on Morning Report and became quite put out when he raised the fact that she was listed in the 2018 Register of Pecuniary Interests for all MPs as owning eight properties. She responded that is was now only six properties …

     Audio here https://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018683615/tax-proposals-an-attack-on-the-kiwi-way-of-life-national

     Re the annual Parliamentary Register of Pecuniary Interests, I have provided some information on this and links to the current 2018 and previous Registers at comment 9 under the “In defense of taxing the family home” post.

     I won’t attempt to link to that comment as such links don’t work currently. (Latter is not a complaint.)
     • left_forward 4.1.1

       22 February 2019 at 8:56 am

       Thank you VV for this and the list of pecuniary interests.
       Excellent to hear that Guyon E has already used this line of questioning to address Gnat MPs who are attempting to critique the tax proposal without disclosing that they have related personal interests.

       Good goveranace practice is to declare all pecuniary interest before entering into discussion from the position of the privilege of your position – in this case as a representative of the people.
5. Adrian Thornton 5

   22 February 2019 at 8:23 am

   Breaking News…
   Simon Bridges lays compliant to Police, in his statement he describes being ‘assaulted’ by a ‘Big hairy chested man’. Witnesses said the perpetrator laughingly pulled on Bridges hair, the alleged assault took place at a local Golf Club BBQ fundraiser.
   More details to follow…
   • patricia bremner 5.1

     22 February 2019 at 9:50 am

     Oh, in the footsteps of… “trumpets sound”… JK?
   • ianmac 5.2

     22 February 2019 at 10:29 am

     But Adrian, Key wasn’t very hairy.
     • Andre 5.2.1

       22 February 2019 at 10:57 am

       Yeah nah, he just had a hair fetish.
       • greywarshark 5.2.1.1

         22 February 2019 at 8:43 pm

         This hairy man thing – it’s as deep as the Bible.

         Genesis 27:11
         Verse Concepts
         Jacob answered his mother Rebekah, “Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man and I am a smooth man.

         It was important to differentiate because there was a bit of skullduggery going on:
         In Genesis, Esau returned to his twin brother Jacob, famished from the fields. … In Genesis 27:1–40, Jacob uses deception, motivated by his mother Rebecca, to lay claim to his blind father Isaac’s blessing that was inherently due to the firstborn, Esau.

         So JK could claim about being pretty smooth and playing with hair, that – they did it first!
     • marty mars 5.2.2

       22 February 2019 at 11:17 am

       I think you may mean not very visibly hairy…
6. joe90 6

   22 February 2019 at 8:26 am

   Thread.

   https://twitter.com/HoarseWisperer/status/1098646532075728896

   https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1098646532075728896.html
   • Gabby 6.1

     22 February 2019 at 9:34 am

     Bloody hell. Never use one word when 2000 will do, eh.
7. ScottGN 7

   22 February 2019 at 8:29 am

   In case anyone thought China was just being mean to us…

   https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-21/china-bans-coal-import-and-send-dollar-tumbling/10835136
   • mpledger 7.1

     22 February 2019 at 9:44 am

     China isn’t being mean to us (at the moment) – that’s just National propaganda.

     The thing to remember about China is that everyone’s job is on the line, all the time. That means all underlings have to uphold the absolute letter of the law – any minor screw-up they let through will probably cost them their job. So NZers can’t do the “she’ll be right” thing and get away with it.

     When China wants to screw with us, the stop buying our milk (in their usual quantities).
8. Muttonbird 8

   22 February 2019 at 9:09 am

   Lol. Is this a threat?

   (They) will ‘make Simon Bridges the Prime Minister’

   – Judith Collins

   https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2019/02/judith-collins-says-capital-gains-tax-will-make-simon-bridges-the-prime-minister.html
   • ianmac 8.1

     22 February 2019 at 10:31 am

     Of course “they” being Simon supporters wouldn’t vote for Jacinda anyway.
   • marty mars 8.2

     22 February 2019 at 11:19 am

     The higher you push them the further they have to fall eh judith.
9. esoteric pineapples 9

   22 February 2019 at 9:42 am

   “Geopolitics is now a game best played with financial and commercial weapons. The new geoeconomic game may be more efficient and subtle than past geopolitical competitions, but it is no less ruthless and destructive.”

   – Juan C. Zarate
10. esoteric pineapples 10

    22 February 2019 at 9:50 am

    “Virgin Group founder Richard Branson announced last week he is organising a fundraising concert in Colombia on Friday featuring stars such as former Genesis singer Peter Gabriel to raise “US$100 million” for “those millions that need it the most.”

    But Roger Waters said Branson had been fooled by a US “shtick.”

    “I have friends in Caracas right now, there is so far no civil war, no mayhem, no murder, no apparent dictatorship, no mass imprisonment of opposition, no suppression of the press,” said Waters in a post liked 12,000 times.

    “None of that is going on even though that is the narrative that is being sold to the rest of us.”

    https://www.freemalaysiatoday.com/category/leisure/2019/02/20/pink-floyd-singer-hits-out-at-bransons-venezuela-aid-concert/?fbclid=IwAR2ui5nyZAkR_o0Uk2gJYJKBE-UXRftp1jwAnCxxiQGtEAFydBpHVAwYP7g
11. reason 11

    22 February 2019 at 10:00 am

    National and Venezuela ….

    after losing the last election the corrupt national Govt left the NZ economy in a weak and vulnerable condition …

    “Our national debt has topped half a trillion dollars and is still rising,”

    ” The latest Reserve Bank figures (for the year to April 30) show household debt has topped $250b, driven by rising property prices and an increase in consumer borrowing.

    That’s an increase of more than 60 per cent in 10 years.”

    And although John Key personally made a million dollars per year out of the housing bubble / crisis … the cost has been workers unable to buy homes and live in a city like Auckland.

    Many farmers got burned by the Nats bubble economics ….

    “Rural debt appears to have topped $60 billion ”

    “Banks tell dairy farmers: it’s time to pay it back ” ….

    So piss weak is our economy after 9 years of national mismanagement …. that a 3% rise in interest rates would stall the economy …. and a 5% rise would crash it.

    If the banks called in their farm overdrafts …. they could crash the rural economy, shortly followed by the entire economy

    If the ‘foot and mouth” disease entered NZ our economy would crash … thanks to nationals cowenomics, which besides poisoning our fresh water with cow piss, shit and farm chemicals … has left our economy so weak a animal disease could bring it down.

    And If either the Chinese or the Aussies told us to get fucked ………. they could crash our economy.

    %%%%%%%%% %%%%%%%% %%%%%%%%%%%

    NZ just about wets itself every-time we have a credit rating review … such is the weakness of our economy.

    Now imagine what would happen if the usa declared NZ a “national security threat” , such as Obama did to Venezuela in 2015

    “The United States declared Venezuela a national security threat” …..”U.S. President Barack Obama signed and issued the executive order,”..”Declaring any country a threat to national security is the first step in starting a U.S. sanctions program. The same process has been followed with countries such as Iran and Syria, U.S. officials said. ” ….. and to which I’d add Vietnam Libya, Yugoslavia, Cuba, China and all the other countries the usa has attacked in modern history.

    Being declared a “national security threat” by the usa would probably result in a D- credit rating and 25%+ interest rates for NZ borrowers ….

    What would 20% or higher interest rates on mortgages and farm debt do to the Nz economy ???

    Think about that the next time Gooseman or Warmonger Mapp blame socialism for all of Venezuela ills…..

    Or ask them …. What would happen to our eonomy …..if the usa was always supporting coups in our country ….and declared NZ a hostile state ?…..

    Links which I have quoted from

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/farming/89539071/rural-debt-appears-to-have-topped-60-billion

    Nation of Debt: Half a trillion dollars and still rising https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11873204

    Venezuela’s Public Debt: Total data was reported at 148.707 USD bn in Dec 2016. This records a decrease from the previous number of 171.999 USD bn for Dec 2015. ….. https://www.ceicdata.com/en/venezuela/public-debt/public-debt-total

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11986023

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-venezuela-idUSKBN0M51NS20150310
    • Gosman 11.1

      22 February 2019 at 3:05 pm

      Ummm…. why was Venezuela dependent on the US to the extent that if the US President classifies them a security threat the whole economy implodes? That is not exactly a glowing endorsement of 20 years of Bolivarian Socialism is it? They couldn’t ensure the Venezuelan economy would be able to ride out a mere threat from the US. How pathetic and powerless the Chavista regime is not being able to manage that.
    • Gosman 11.2

      22 February 2019 at 3:07 pm

      The point being you don’t really understand the economic prblems of Venezuela. You just parrot the regimes excuses. Tell me how the US causes hyper-inflation in Venezuela just by declaring it a security threat?
      • cleangreen 11.2.1

        22 February 2019 at 5:48 pm

        Gosman = parrot king.
      • reason 11.2.2

        22 February 2019 at 6:45 pm

        Gooseman ….I’m not going to answer your crap….. until you answer me and explain why NZ s economy would be trashed if we got the Venezuela treatment from the usa.

        Ie our economy would shit itself and die if the usa was always supporting coups in our country ….and declared NZ a hostile state …..

        Despite your refusal to answer …honest people know New Zealand would be a bsket case if the USA gave us anything like the same treatment…..

        Here’s a second question for you to fail at …..

        Can you produce any capatilist or market economy / country that delivered an equal or greater improvement for its people, in the same or shorter period of time …. than Libya achieved by using socialisim. ???????? can ya gosboy ?

        Libya, in 1951 was officially the poorest country in the world, …….when its corrupt king and British Petroleum were ousted it was still one of the poorest nations in Africa and the world ….

        in a little over a generation , using socialisim and Prior to the US-led bombing campaign in 2011, Libya had the highest Human Development Index, the lowest infant mortality and the highest life expectancy in all of Africa.

        infant mortality rates have decreased from 105 per 1000 live births in 1970, to 18 in 2005. Mortality rates amongst children under five have seen a similar shift, with 24 per 1000 live births in 2005.

        A high rate of trachoma formerly left 10 percent or more of the population blinded or with critically impaired vision, but by the late 1970s the disease appeared to have been brought under control.

        Public works ( socialisim ) had solved the previous problem of a country beset with cholera and unsafe water problems ….. They built the largest underground network of pipes and aqueducts in the world. It consists of more than 1300 wells, most more than 500 m deep, and supplies 6,500,000 m of freshwater per day to the cities of Tripoli, Benghazi, Sirt and elsewhere….. before being destroyed by usa / nato democracy bombs only 3 percent of Libyian were without access to safe water …. … which is probaly better than NZ after Nationals trashing of our water

        Before socialisim only 25% of Libyans were literate. Prior to the usa and Nato destroying the country the figure was up to 87% .In a relative short period of time, Libya achieved universal access for primary education, with 98% gross enrollment for secondary, and 46% for tertiary education.The pupil teacher ratio in Libyas primary schools was of the order of 17 (1983 UNESCO data), 74% of school children graduating from primary school were enrolled in secondary school (1983 UNESCO data)

        in 1969, few women went to university. Today, more than half of Libyas university students are women. One of the first laws passed in 1970 was an equal pay for equal work law.

        Public Health Care in Libya prior to NATO s Humanitarian Interventionwas the best in Africa. Health care is [was] available to all citizens free of charge by the public sector.

        The facts and statistics showed a country which went from one of the poorest nations in its continent into the richest nation….it also gained the highest Human Development Index, the lowest infant mortality and the highest life expectancy.

        As Gooseman will come up empty again …..We’ll give him a third question

        Does he agree with Nelson Mandela about the usa ….. “Mandela …..” If you look at those mattersm, you will come to the conclusion that the attitude of the United States of America is a threat to world peace. If there is a country that has committed unspeakable atrocities upon the world, it is the USA. They don’t care for human beings .” ,……” No country can claim to be the policeman of the world and no state can dictate to another what it should do ”

        Mandela versus gosman ….
      • KJT 11.2.3

        22 February 2019 at 7:22 pm

        https://www.commondreams.org/views/2019/02/21/us-media-erase-years-chavismos-gains
        • reason 11.2.3.1

          22 February 2019 at 10:27 pm

          Thanks for the excellent link KJT … I suspect gosman like Mapp is a racist and lifting poor brown people out of poverty means nothing to him …

          Your link lead to a good one about the us sanctions … https://fair.org/home/exonerating-the-empire-in-venezuela/

          “it is no secret that Venezuela, unlike Mexico, Honduras, Colombia, Egypt or Saudi Arabia, is targeted for regime change by the US precisely because of Venezuela’s leadership in resisting US hegemony and the imposition of the neoliberal model in Latin America. And of course, Venezuela holds the largest oil reserves in the world, attracting more unwanted attention from Washington.”

          ….”American sanctions are contributing to the issues facing Venezuela is all the more egregious considering that the sanctions violate international law, contravening both UN Resolution 2625, which forbids “the use of economic, political or any other type of measures to coerce another state” and the charter of the Organization of American States, which bars the “use of coercive measures of an economic or political character.” As usual (e.g., FAIR.org, 9/19/13, 12/8/17), US media do not deem American violations of international law newsworthy.”

          Basically the usa is like a mafia gangster nation ….. their negotiations are ‘ do what we say and wan’t…. or we will kill you and make your children suffer ‘.
12. patricia bremner 12

    22 February 2019 at 10:04 am

    If we ever wondered who would support fairer taxes.. now we know!!!

    Those who have assets are “against” CGT.

    Those who would like better income to afford to buy an asset are “for” CGT

    This is a wonderful discussion about what is fair. Bring it on.

    Some straw arguments looking pretty hollow, Simon and Amy.
    • AB 12.1

      22 February 2019 at 10:28 am

      Yes PB. Occasionally the door opens enough to see that the whole thing is founded on conflicting economic interests. That my ‘getting ahead’ may be dependent on you staying put, or going backwards. Then the door gets slammed and we witter on about being ‘Kiwis’, as if we were all the same.
13. joe90 13

    22 February 2019 at 10:32 am

    Not an awful lot to show for his 27 years.

    https://twitter.com/TheSWPrincess/status/1098585937087483905
    • Andre 13.1

      22 February 2019 at 10:37 am

      When you look at the substance of those bills it’s even worse. The 7 bills of Bernie were mostly real important stuff like naming post offices etc. None of this frivolous shit like setting up the Consumer Finance Protection Bureau like Warren did.
      • arkie 13.1.1

        22 February 2019 at 10:46 am

        https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/mar/24/bernie-s/bernie-sanders-was-roll-call-amendment-king-1995-2/

        During his 25 years in Congress, Sanders introduced 324 bills, three of which became law. This includes a bill in a Republican Congress naming a post office in Vermont and two more while Democrats had control (one naming another Vermont post office and another increasing veterans’ disability compensation). Clinton, for the record, also passed three bills in eight years.

        But the sparse number of bills isn’t surprising. Volden and Vanderbilt University’s Alan Wiseman assess the legislative effectiveness of House members by comparing their records to a benchmark. According to this analysis, Sanders has either met or exceeded expectations during his tenure in the House
14. millsy 14

    22 February 2019 at 10:42 am

    People tend to forget that over the past 30 years ago, the wealthiest of this country have had their taxes slashed by 50-60%.

    Public services have suffered.
15. cleangreen 15

    22 February 2019 at 10:46 am

    We wrote an article today about this loss of our water by global bottling companies now invading our country and now taking much of our best water sources now and damaging our health and properties as they truck freight the product through our poorer areas to our export ports now. These foreign bottling companies are now seen as ‘environmental thugs’ wrecking our communities lives and health.

    ‘A new water tax is needed for foreign water bottling companies currently paying no water tax while they are causing harm to our public health and environment.‘

    Press release – Citizens Environmental Advocacy Centre Incorporated. 22nd February 2019.

    The environmental impacts of business activities of water bottling in NZ are currently not being considered by “The Tax Working Party” group, as to the environmental impacts these foreign overseas companies are causing to our residential communities health and wellbeing now; – consider the cost and harm they are causing us now by only using truck freight transport;

    We are supporting placing a new water tax on those foreign overseas companies taking our best water around our country today as they are choosing to exclusively use only road truck freight which has a large carbon footprint and impact on residential health from noise, vibration and air pollution.

    Facts;
    • The transporting of that water by trucks to production plants and for export is harming our roads as more trucks are gridlocking the roads causing accidents and road damage.

    • But the elephant in the room is the harm the extra truck transport going through our cities and causing noise, vibration and air pollution is now adversely affecting the health and wellbeing of many residential areas around the country and councils claim now have no funds to mitigate the adverse effects of these trucks carrying water for export through their residential zones to export.

    • The “Tax Working Party” should be a proposing an ‘environmental harm’ cost as part of a tax on the “user pays” principal, to pay for mitigation on those transport effects to our citizens.

    Since these water export companies are now choosing to use only the roads to move millions of litres of water and causing damage both to our residential environment, and impacting large costs to us paying for road repairs on the roads they are using we must place a tax on the cost of transport of that ‘so called free water’ then it is only fair these foreign companies are required to pay tax to mitigate for their damages they are causing in their business.

    We think this is a fairer system to give local councils and NZTA the funding to repair the roads and repair the water infrastructure also.

    All NZ citizens should be not paying tax for a for a ‘natural recourse’ if they are not using it for financial gain, so only commercial water users should pay a tax and NZ business should only pay a limited tax far less then foreign companies as they are not citizens.
16. ScottGN 16

    22 February 2019 at 11:49 am

    Very good from Craig Foster

    https://www.canberratimes.com.au/national/dear-scott-and-bill-we-ve-strayed-from-our-values-a-socceroo-s-plea-20190221-p50zbm.html
17. joe90 17

    22 February 2019 at 12:07 pm

    Kahanist Baruch Goldstein murdered 29 Palestinians and wounded 125 while they prayed in a Hebron mosque.

    But Hamas.

    JERUSALEM (JTA) — Israel would never have a government without political horse-trading. Governments form when parties win enough seats in the Knesset and cobble together enough partners to form a ruling, majority coalition.

    But one trade is raising eyebrows and even alarm, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is being seen as brokering a marriage of convenience between an extremist right-wing party, Otzma Yehudit, and a more moderate right-wing party, Jewish Home.

    Otzma Yehudit, which means “Jewish power,” is the spiritual godchild of Rabbi Meir Kahane’s Kach party, which was banned from the Knesset under a Basic Law outlawing incitement to violence and later exiled entirely in Israel. Kahane was the American immigrant founder of the militant Jewish Defense League, who before his assassination in 1990 promoted the immediate annexation of disputed territories and the expulsion of Arabs from the West Bank.

    https://www.jta.org/2019/02/20/israel/netanyahu-brokered-a-deal-with-the-political-heirs-of-meir-kahane-heres-why-and-why-it-matters?

    edit:

    https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/group/jewish-defense-league
18. Herodotus 18

    22 February 2019 at 1:15 pm

    To lighten the mood
    IMO a little gem I was previously unaware of, and thought it is worth sharing …
    Just wondering if any out there were aware of this song ??
    
    • joe90 18.1

      22 February 2019 at 2:24 pm

      Off the Hook 1964

      More from the same show

      1967
      • Herodotus 18.1.1

        22 February 2019 at 2:36 pm

        Do like the influence of Brian Jones, even when he is playing the recorder (IMO Greatest song with a recorder) in Ruby Tuesday.
        Note to ones self-Take time to look up early works of gifted musician, especially those with R&B DNA
        
        • joe90 18.1.1.1

          22 February 2019 at 3:12 pm

          Not to forget the other Mr Jones.

          https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-lists/david-bowies-10-greatest-davy-jones-era-tracks-31887/silly-boy-blue-37000/
19. Sabine 19

    22 February 2019 at 5:27 pm

    rain,
    glorious
    beautiful
    rain.

    feeling very grateful tonight to be honest. finally some water.
    • greywarshark 19.1

      22 February 2019 at 8:55 pm

      Where, where?
20. Macro 20

    22 February 2019 at 5:30 pm

    Must watch!
    Even the dogs love AOC 😂
    https://twitter.com/revrrlewis/status/1098700066150334465?s=21
    • Sabine 20.1

      22 February 2019 at 5:56 pm

      this is actually not funny.

      the dog was not controlled, no one was getting the dog of her, and she is very very lucky that this was a nice dog.
      • Macro 20.1.1

        22 February 2019 at 6:20 pm

        Except she knows Charlie the dog and his owner.
        • Sabine 20.1.1.1

          22 February 2019 at 6:22 pm

          still. A lot of good dogs get put down because they are not under control by their owners. Usually its because they injure a human.

          its cute, and its not cute at the same time.
          • sumsuch 20.1.1.1.1

            23 February 2019 at 4:23 am

            Half of freedom is damage to yourself and others — witness my 70s childhood. Our surrounds suffered so we could learn and laugh. Wouldn’t be without that dangerous freedom the religious swop for safety.
            • Sabine 20.1.1.1.1.1

              23 February 2019 at 10:52 am

              and its still the dog that would be put down if you would have been playing with an uncontrolled dog and got bitten.

              i don’t care about damage to her, i care about the dog.
              • sumsuch …

                25 February 2019 at 12:49 am

                Except we believed in and believe in the fair go. As does AOC I think despite the undeclared war in US society. Dogs bite and we understand often.
21. greywarshark 21

    22 February 2019 at 8:53 pm

    It’s true I haven’t read much about Africa lately. I had a look to see if it was still there.

    https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-02-22/the-worst-humanitarian-crises-youve-never-heard-of/10825046

    In countries like Niger, crises like hunger and poverty are being largely under-reported in the global media, according to a new report from CARE.…

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