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Open mike 24/03/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, March 24th, 2013 - 237 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

237 comments on “Open mike 24/03/2013”

  1. Can you trust a system that lies to you about the basics? Parliament says that common law is case law, but older dictionaries of law (eg Bouvier’s, Blacks) say something else. English common law was established by King Alfred the Great, and King Alfred’s code began with the 10 commandments.

  2. Socialist Paddy 2

    Hmmm …

    Rodney Hide believes National is trying to protect Shearer.

    His logic is quite convincing. He is wondering why National is not going for the jugular over Shearer’s foreign bank account.

    The normal rule book says that you keep this alive, keep feeding the media, and lodge a privilege complaint which would keep this going for months. Meanwhile Shearer’s reputation is further and further trashed.

    Instead Key has become all magnanimous on it and forgiven Shearer.

    There seems to be only two possibilities:

    1. Key has become a decent human being and is not interested in playing games.
    2. Hide is right.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/politics/news/article.cfm?c_id=280&objectid=10873176

    • rosy 2.1

      Or
      3. It neutralises Key’s dodgy dealings in the past (Tranzrail, winery, SkyCity convention dealings). Letting Shearer off the hook now also means he can’t have a go at the NActs when found to have dodgy dealings later on.

      • Morrissey 2.1.1

        Key’s systematic lying and dishonesty first came to public attention in Nicky Hager’s book. It is neither valid nor reasonable to say that Key’s exhaustively documented pattern of corruption is comparable to Shearer’s failure, which is really only bumbling incompetence.

        • rosy 2.1.1.1

          Yes, but that’s hardly the point for people who don’t know about Key’s systematic lying and dishonesty. Criticism of Key, Banks, English and the like ends up be a pox on both their houses or hypocritical in the minds of the public.

          It’s a win-win for Key to let Shearer’s bumbling incompetence slide.

        • Tiresias 2.1.1.2

          “Bumbling incompetence” is one possible explanation of the matter.

          • ghostrider888 2.1.1.2.1

            as an aside Tiresias; Mark 10 :42- was contained in the service attended today.
            (Aithnionn ciarog ciarog eile)
            Believe, or not.
            :)

        • dumrse 2.1.1.3

          “…systematic lying and dishonesty…” could provide a convincing argument if supported by a table of indisputable facts. Facts I suspect we will never see given Key continues to lead the current government. I agree entirely with your closing comment although I would swap bumbling for absolute.

          • locus 2.1.1.3.1

            A fact is by definition indisputable. Not that the grinning puffed up self believer currently the darling of half of nz would agree. In his twisted mind anything he can get away with saying must surely prove that it’s been accepted as fact. And as for indisputable facts, Key can always find a lawyer who would give a different opinion.

            Just so you know, more than a few people have been cataloguing his systematic lies, dishonesty and unevidenced opinions: try a search on BLiP + Key lies

    • cricklewood 2.2

      I’d say Hide is correct. It’s now impossible for Labour to criticize a minister that has been ‘forgetful’ without it bouncing back onto Shearer so that’s a plus. Secondly without doubt Shearer will get hammered in the televised debates, he struggles now even with an auto cue and prepared lines if he has to think on his feet he will melt into a collection of um’s and ah’s. The show me the money episode killed off Goff in that it dominated the story of the debates and I have no doubt that the Nats will be banking on a Shearer bumble fest and a resulting bump in the polls in their favor right before the election…

      • Morrissey 2.2.1

        It’s now impossible for Labour to criticize a minister that has been ‘forgetful’ without it bouncing back onto Shearer so that’s a plus.

        You are wrong on this point. There is simply no credible comparison between Shearer’s incompetence and Key’s established pattern of dishonesty.

        Your other points are well made.

        • cricklewood 2.2.1.1

          I don’t think it matters if it is credible in terms of a comparison, more that they will be able to deflect and turn Parliament into a rabble which will bury the question. Esp with the assistance of a hopeless speaker…

          • Draco T Bastard 2.2.1.1.1

            I don’t think it matters if it is credible in terms of a comparison, more that they will be able to deflect and turn Parliament into a rabble which will bury the question.

            No, I think Labour could actually turn that to the advantage – Key has far more points where he’s been less than honest and it was always done on purpose and always hidden. Shearer screwed up but came clean – once. All Labour, and the rest of the opposition, has to do when National try to deflect onto Shearer is to say Remember when… and every time they say it, it’s a different case showing John Key’s dishonesty.

            The Lower Wages – with the fact that wages have been going down and the youth rates
            The Transrail shares
            The Springbok tour he can’t remember but remember the 1976 Olympics
            The unread police reports showing Banks probably broke the law

            etc, etc

            • cricklewood 2.2.1.1.1.1

              do you think the current bunch are clever enough to do that?

            • Tiresias 2.2.1.1.1.2

              Remember when Shearer agreed that disability scroungers spend their days on the roof painting it?

              Remember when Shearer forgot he had more cash sitting in an overseas account than most Kiwi’s can aspire to have in their bank accounts at all?

              Remember when Shearer said anything else?

              Actually, on that last point I can’t.

            • Anne 2.2.1.1.1.3

              The Springbok tour he can’t remember but remembers the 1976 Olympics

              Do you think this article might have something to do with Key’s reluctance to go there DTB?

              John Key’s father was in all probability a Marxist in his younger days. But as Tom Scott points out:

              Had Key played a prominent role protesting the 1981 Springbok tour, Muldoon would have had the SIS working nights on this link to a Marxist past, however tenuous, building it into a file thick enough to derail a train.

              It also seems Key was an ardent admirer of Muldoon.

              IMO his amnesia in this instance sort of makes sense now.

        • Lanthanide 2.2.1.2

          Really Morrissey? You lambast the pathetic media we have in this country, and don’t realise that what cricklewood is saying is exactly how the same media would react in these situations?

          Can’t you just imagine Hoskings crowing “but Shearer had that hidden bank account?!?!”.

        • Rhinocrates 2.2.1.3

          Morally there may be no comparison, but electorally there is. Incompetence will be punished at the ballot as harshly as corruption, probably even more harshly.

          At least that’s my interpretation of National’s strategy.

          I’ll not be at all surprised if, once the cheque’s cleared, Hooton shows up and advises calm and forgiveness in his usual smarmy way.

      • felix 2.2.2

        “the Nats will be banking on a Shearer bumble fest and a resulting bump in the polls in their favor right before the election…”

        Oh I think they’re actually banking on him being a walking fucking disaster all day every day from the moment he first took the job.

        And that’s pretty much what they’ve got.

        • Colonial Viper 2.2.2.1

          settle mate, McFlock reckons it’s too early to come to any conclusions about this yet and we should just wait it out.

          • McFlock 2.2.2.1.1

            I was only going by the numbers you yourself came up , cv.

            According to your data, the left might very well be on course for a solid victory.

    • Retired Engineer 2.3

      As a Labour supporters we find it very hard to accept Shearer as a leader.
      My familty won’t bad mouth the party as we know the great work it has done down the years.
      The health system, the education system, the holidays and work conditions all exist because of Labour activists and supporters.

      Shearer is like a cuckoo’s chick. Labour is hosting an outsider that will ruin it. Get rid of Shearer and Robertson as quickly as possible.

      • JK 2.3.1

        To Retired Engineer, I totally agree with you. Not only is Shearer a cuckoo’s chick, he also has a huge ego – everything he does and says is about him. He doesn’t include Labour members (sorry, followers) in anything. He’s not a cooperative type of person, he’s a “me, me, me” type. Look at how he worded his comments about the presentation of the Assets Sales petition in his newsletter about that subject. “Today I presented the petition ….” when it was a joint collective effort by all the Left parties and their members.There are other examples of the “I, I, I” persona as well.

        • geoff 2.3.1.1

          To be fair, that’ll be because he’s still got “be a strong leader” ringing in his ears from post-conference wally advisors.

          • Colonial Viper 2.3.1.1.1

            The “Strong Leader” metric is an absolutely crucial predictor for US presidential politics.

            And Labour people have been talking to US Democratic Party campaign advisors.

            • AmaKiwi 2.3.1.1.1.1

              “And Labour people have been talking to US Democratic Party campaign advisors.”

              Talking, but not learning.

              The NZ Labour party is as far away from the Obama community organizing model as a horse and buggy are from a space shuttle.

      • Hami Shearlie 2.3.2

        +1000

      • Saarbo 2.3.3

        I suspect it is too late to get rid of the hopeless labour leader now. Labour will have to go with him.

        I get the feeling that the party is trying to pull together, listening to Shane Jones this morning (on Q&A) discussing how the Maori Party is buggered if they stay divided may have said as much about Labours current strategy to pull together (Also the Australian situation is motivating them to pull together as well). This is probably the right thing to do given the time frame.

        Im just bloody nervous and apprehensive when it comes to the Key versus Shearer debates in 2014.

        • The Al1en 2.3.3.1

          “I suspect it is too late to get rid of the hopeless labour leader now. Labour will have to go with him.”

          I don’t agree, but if you’re correct, let’s hope whoever put and kept DS in the job are held accountable and have absolutely nothing to do with selecting the next leader.
          Grant in waiting, fuck right off. ;)

          • Saarbo 2.3.3.1.1

            Yes agree, if Labour fail in 2014 then DS and his whole brigade need to be cleaned out.

            • Colonial Viper 2.3.3.1.1.1

              Partially agree. But remember winning is the easy bit. Labour governing the country beyond one term, that’s the real trick.

    • BM 2.4

      Or Key has more important thinks to do, like running the country.
      Leave the political point scoring wankyness to Greenbour.

      • Draco T Bastard 2.4.1

        Or Key has more important thinks to do, like looking for the next photo-op

        FIFY

        Key doesn’t, and can’t, run the country. He doesn’t have the interest, he doesn’t have the experience and he’s not actually there to do so. He’s there solely to sell out NZ to his rich mates.

        • dumrse 2.4.1.1

          Fucken dreamer.

        • AmaKiwi 2.4.1.2

          Key is “there solely to sell out NZ to his rich mates.”

          And to dismantle the government. Don’t forget he said every dollar to government is a dollar sucked out of the economy.

          Latest examples are the Open Bank Resolution (no depositor’s insurance) and Susan The-Void to make the Race Relations Commission meaningless so it can be phase out.

    • vto 2.5

      The left should not stop attacking the lies of John Key and his Ministers.

      The lies over his tranzrail shares. The lies over Dotcom. The corruption over Skycity. The lies of John Banks (what a dismal twit he is now).

      If the labour lot think this cowes them and silences the issue of John Key’s lies then they do not deserve the levers of power.

      Just stand up, back straight, and call John Key a liar, not a forgetful sap, a liar. Say “Shearer genuinely forgot, John Key lies when he says he forgot”. Call him a liar ffs. Weak-arsed fools.

      • marty mars 2.5.1

        what does “weak-arsed” actually mean? The opposite would be ‘strong-arsed’ wouldn’t it and I don’t get that. Of course ‘hard-arsed’ is used by some but then surely ‘soft-arsed’ would be the opposite of that, wouldn’t it?

    • Chris 2.6

      Key cannot afford to “go for the jugular” To do so would put him at risk of interest being shown again in many of his past dodgy dealings, brain fades, outright lies etc. Many of these still being shown on-line.

    • pollywog 2.7

      Sharp as a fucking hammer is Rodders!!!

    • tc 2.8

      Why wouldn’t national protect their best chance of a third term…..David Shearer.

  3. just saying 3

    A big challenge for the left: Labour Party management “shoulder-tapping” potential candidates on the basis of some kind of public profile, despite political beliefs in conflict with the principles of Labour, despite their not even being party members, regardless of suitablility. There are a few in the party who have been “helicoptered-in”, and without exception, the “tappers” have been of the right of the party.

    Of course, we usually only know of those “tap’s” which lead to a very perky job for the tappee.
    It’s always interesting to hear of some of the others:

    Dame Susan Devoy has been shoulder tapped to run for Parliament by almost every political party except the Greens. And NZ First.*

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/8464695/Squashed-in-court-of-public-opinion

    Another popular career path is via an invitation to apply for a cushy job in the offices of the Labour Leadership.

    Some successful tappees have combined both modes.

    *To anyone who wishes to argue that the Party’s referred to in Devoy’s case might not include Labour: dream on!

    • I’m pretty sure Mana hasn’t shoulder-tapped her lol.

      That article had this beauty

      Mana Party member Annette Sykes said the appointment was an affront as only people with an “intimate knowledge” of the Treaty of Waitangi could be qualified to be commissioner.

      “How does she know that I don’t have an intimate knowledge of the treaty?” Devoy asks.

      Well, does she?

      Devoy says she understands the treaty from “my own perspective” and even though she does not know what Sykes means by “intimate” she has certainly read it. However, she would not go into more detail about what she thought the treaty meant.

      “I’ve taken lots of flak and now I’m a bit gun shy. When you are pushed into a corner you don’t necessarily come out fighting.”

      devoy has also stated in another interview that she might make her first job to sort Waitangi Day out – can’t wait to see what idiot ideas she will come up with.

      • vto 3.1.1

        Waitangi Day is fine as it is, in all its turmoil, debate, history, celebration and the like. It should be left to grow and develop organically, as it currently does.

        I think what Devoy and others are talking about when they say this is more a Day for New Zealand as a whole, not so much interfering with the day for the treaty. Waitangi Day is very specific.

        I don’t see a problem with another day off to celebrate (or commemorate) NZ in totality.

        • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.1

          I don’t really see any problem with another day either, if people want it. But it’s a bit odd to me that they only seem to start talking about how they want it with reference to Waitangi Day.

          • vto 3.1.1.1.1

            Yep. I guess Waitangi Day is seen as a form of national day too, which it is in many ways, hence the tie-up in looking at an entirely separate day. It is an unfortunate aspect of the debate because it hauls in all sorts of other issues which are not related and the whole thing ends up a messy squabble.

            • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.1.1.1

              But those issues pretty much are related though eh?

              What I like about Waitangi Day, particularly in comparison the Australia Day, is that we do actually have a bit of a ding dong, and people say what they think. It’s a genuine reflection about what the day means and how we’re doing.

              If the desire is for a day that is not so genuine, and we have a big old pretendathon about things, then fine. But imma gonna laugh my arse off when it too becomes fractious with people sitting on the sidelines calling out “Nah, that’s bullshit mate”.

              NZers don’t go for that sort of happy clappy stupidity, and that’s a good thing.

              • Colonial Weka

                Having a national day at Matariki might work. It’s more celebratory, and brings Maori and non-Maori together in less confrontational ways. Plus it grounds us all in the fact that we live on these particular islands at this particular time.

                • Pascal's bookie

                  It might, but i’d bet you dollars to donuts it would be met, every year, with howls of ‘What’s this pagan bullshit’, and ‘this isn’t a real holiday’ and ‘oh noes it’s the maorification of all of the things.’

                  The complaint isn’t about unity and togetherness, it’s about a particular type of unity and togetherness that never existed, but used to be assumed.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    Pb, many places already have Matariki celebrations. It’s growing and in time will naturally become our winter holiday. Eventually the govt can formalise that, but in the meantime communities will just get on with celebrating together.

                    I don’t know what unity means in a national (or even local) context, nor why it is so important to some people. It strikes me as something to aspire to if one sees diversity as a problem.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      Totally.

                      If it turns into a “National Day” whatever that is, it will be through a bottom up evolution.

                    • vto

                      ” It strikes me as something to aspire to if one sees diversity as a problem”

                      Why on earth would that follow that? I think that describes your own outlook rather than others… much as everyone’s opinion do such

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I’ve said I don’t understand why people call for unity. It always happens in conversations where other people value diversity highly and where the people calling for unity view that diversity as divisive. eg Waitangi Day, or the Treaty itself.

                      The other kind of diversity, the one that is allowed so long as we agree with each other, seems a poorer kind of diversity to me.

                    • vto

                      It is not a call for unity. Why would you think it was? Don’t see that mentioned anywhere around this mini-thread. In fact I see the opposite – a call for celebration of our our myriad differences.

                  • Jenny

                    It might, but i’d bet you dollars to donuts it would be met, every year, with howls of ‘What’s this pagan bullshit’, and ‘this isn’t a real holiday’ and ‘oh noes it’s the maorification of all of the things.’

                    Pascal’s bookie

                    Great! Then Pakeha red faced angry people, will have a day to protest about too.

                    I look forward to watching it on TV.

                    Don Brash up front holding a banner wrapped in the Union Jack. Rodney Hide on the bull horn. And instead of a haka. We can witness the protesters doing an angry and spirited morris dance.

                    I can’t wait.

                • personally I’d keep Matariki and Waitangi Day separate because it is important that the Treaty is highlighted (and everything associated with it) on the day it was signed and imo that is the healthiest way to sort out the issues which will lead to actual nation-building rather than the pretend stuff that goes on now.

          • QoT 3.1.1.1.2

            Signs people have privilege: they think the biggest issue in NZ race relations is one statutory holiday.

        • marty mars 3.1.1.2

          a day for nz as a whole includes Māori though doesn’t it and Waitangi Day includes all nzers so the call for a new day is redundant isn’t it?

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.1.2.1

            Well, for sure a new day can’t be simply based on the rationale of “Waitangi Day as we know it isn’t what we want”.

          • vto 3.1.1.2.2

            Of course a day for NZ as a whole includes all people and cultures, bar none. Waitangi Day however is subtle but very real in its difference. The Treaty was between Maori and the British Crown only – it is only the next step out that hauls in other people by dint of being “subjects of the crown” (yeah right) so it is indirect when it comes to other people.

            This is not to detract from Waitangi at all. In fact, if anything, having a further day for all NZ would possibly enhance the position of Waitangi, by way of contrast. Its importance would be highlighted by stripping away the flotsam which accrues to it by also being some undefined NZ national day.

            • marty mars 3.1.1.2.2.1

              another national day for this country would detach from the significance of Waitangi Day – imagine if the promises made had been kept then the day would actually be a celebration but sadly the day just highlights the inequality of the current situation and that highlighting is the bit that people don’t like because it reminds them of what has happened, what is currently happening and what is likely to continue to happen unless some changes are made.

          • Draco T Bastard 3.1.1.2.3

            That’s the way I’m looking at it. I may not celebrate Waitangi Day or pay much attention to what goes on at Waitangi on that day but I’d actually be quite angry if some idiot tried to move it. It would be like trying to deny our history which I think is what the people who call for a new National Day are actually trying to do.

        • BM 3.1.1.3

          I agree, no one except a very small % consider Waitangi day to be anything other than some Maori bitchfest.
          A yearly opportunity for the same dick heads to jump up and down and tell the majority of NZ to go get fucked.

          What people want is a NZ day where everyone can come together without the racial bullshit and a have a day of celebrating who we are.
          That isn’t Waitangi day.

          • vto 3.1.1.3.1

            Don’t know about that BM. Waitangi brings out issues around the Treaty. They need discussing, debating, shouting about, celebrating, holding hands etc. This is what it is about. I don’t see where it is written that everyone should just sit down and be quiet. It is good that people express their views – even if it creates some turmoil. Better that it happen in a forum such as Waitangi than spark up in some random other area of the country.

            • BM 3.1.1.3.1.1

              The Treaty can be discussed on any of the other 364 days of the year, it’s not like Maori have no representation and this is their only opportunity to be heard.

              How can you have a celebration, when a certain group of party goers are slinging shit and insulting the other people at the party?

              Crappiest party ever.

              • Pascal's bookie

                Awesome. Waitangi day should be the one day of the year when you mustn’t talk about the Treaty. Obviously.

                We’ll turn it into one of those awkward movie family ‘celebrations’ where everyone is forced to attend by social duty but no one talks to each other because they pretty much can’t stand the sight of one another.

                • BM

                  Not at all.
                  Just don’t pretend it’s a national day of celebration when it’s clearly not.
                  Leave Waitangi day for the certain Maori to do their thing and have another day where the rest of us can get together and have a celebration.

              • Draco T Bastard

                How can you have a celebration, when a certain group of party goers are slinging shit and insulting the other people at the party?

                Considering the history, why should we be celebrating?

            • marty mars 3.1.1.3.1.2

              I agree and I would say that Waitangi Day accurately reflects the actual situation in this country – a group from all ethnicities striving for the realisation of equality and another group who just want to pretend the inequalities don’t exist.

          • Colonial Weka 3.1.1.3.2

            “What people want is a NZ day where everyone can come together without the racial bullshit and a have a day of celebrating who we are.”

            Really? Because I don’t hear people talking about the need for that. Except for a small number of people at the beginning of Feb each year who seem offended that they have to share a country with Maori. Irrespective of what Waitangi Day is or should be, is there a need for a national coming together day (whatever that means)? Most people would support it if they got another stat holiday out of it no doubt, but beyond that, where is the evidence that NZers have that degree of nationalism?

            • vto 3.1.1.3.2.1

              April 25th indicates a level of evidence of this CW – which may well point to a solution of a type.

              • Pascal's bookie

                A movable feast. Like Easter, which isn’t on the same date every year.

                Something for everyone that is so inclined to wave a flag and skite about NZ and say sucks boo to the rest of them.

                The day of first All Blacks Test of the year.

                Sorted

                • vto

                  You seem a bit anti on the whole idea P’s b. There is clearly demand for something as the issue of a national day continues to crop up. Do you imagine there should not be such and that these people should just sit down, be quiet and accept what they are given? Sort of like what they seem to want Maori to do at Waitangi?

                  • Pascal's bookie

                    I’m not anti it at all v.

                    Go for it.

                    I just doubt that it will end up being what the folks who are mostly loudly calling for it want.

                    The loudest voices calling for it seem to be saying that they wish we didn’t have any issues about race or whatever. But we do in fact have those issues. That’s why Waitangi day is fractious.

                    So if the idea is to have a day when we pretend there aren’t these issues, or when we mustn’t talk about them? What the hell is that? It’s like some sort of right wing hippie kumbayah hey let’s just be friends why can’t we all just get along.

                    You can’t set up a day to not talk about something without making everybody reflect on the thing they aren’t supposed to talk about.

                    • vto

                      I think they want a day which is about celebration not necessarily debate or analysis or reflection of current or past issues or anything else at all like that. Just celebration of NZ and its myriad cultures. All those other things are for sorting out another day. Pretty simple.

                      Its not about pretending those issues don’t exist at all. It is about allocation of components of life to various parts. i.e. meetings in teh afternoon, drinks after work.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “Just celebration of NZ and its myriad cultures”

                      And yet the basis of NZ nationhood is the Treaty, which is between Maori and the Crown who represent non-Maori.

                    • vto

                      “And yet the basis of NZ nationhood is the Treaty, which is between Maori and the Crown who represent non-Maori.”

                      Yep nup there are very different views on what is the basis of NZ nationhood and who the Crown were and how non-Maori relate to it.

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      there are very different views on what is the basis of NZ nationhood and who the Crown were and how non-Maori relate to it.

                      And that’s the rub.

                      Given these different views, how do we have a day that ‘celebrates’ NZ nationhood without it ending up as a discussion about what NZ nationhood means?

                    • Colonial Weka

                      vto, I’m willing to accept that the definition of NZ nationhood is broader than what I stated, but I can’t see how it can not include what I stated without writing Maori out of the picture. By all means have a go though.

                      Plus what Pb said. How can we have a national day when we don’t even know what we are as a nation? (although personally, I don’t feel the need for a national day in the unity sense, because I feel very secure in who I am as a NZer and what that means).

                    • prism

                      Tom Lehrer has something pointed to say about racism and how difficult it is to deal with all differences – try to be nice to each other during National Brotherhood Week. Good stuff.
                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIlJ8ZCs4jY

                    • vto

                      I guess the answer to all of that lies in your last sentence. Most NZers, I would surmise, feel secure in their New Zealanderness in however that has arisen, like yourself. That New Zealanderness has clearly arisen in many different ways (if you consider our history), which is fine. Each can be celebrated. Together.

                      The people calling for a national day (well, just the one I found) seem to be less worried about how they got to this point but they would like to celebrate being at this point. The “how” can be dealt with on another day. That I think is the crucial difference between how they view it and how someone like yourself and P’s b view it.

                      And, a little further, as stated above, it may well be that creating a separate national day enhances the status of Waitangi and the Treaty. It would receive the full position it deserves. (though Marty Mars seems to think it would detract). It could be one of those famous win-win situations.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I think they want a day which is about celebration…

                      And they can have that just as soon as we’ve corrected for the injustices of the past as then we’ll have something to celebrate.

                      Its not about pretending those issues don’t exist at all.

                      Yes it is.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Vto, I’m still not getting it. Can you please tell me, without any reference to Waitangi Day or ANZAC Day or the Treaty, why you would like a national day that celebrates NZ as a nation (if that’s what you are arguing for)? And be specific, not a generality like “we need to celebrate as a nation” (because that will just prompt me to ask why).

                    • vto

                      DtB, that is a miserly approach and you are assuming excessively around people’s intentions for wanting a day that encompasses the whole of NZ and its cultures. You are wrong.

                      CW, it is explained in the posts made on here this morning up and down. What are you getting at? Just ask the question. (btw, it aint me calling for such a day, just being the devil’s advocate and placing the arguments).

                      In shortness – The call seems to centre around the desire for a day that encompasses all cultures and peoples who live here on an equal basis.

                    • draco is correct imo

                      vto – the devils advocate hmmm – why bother doing that when you can articulate your view and contribute to the debate you often say we need to have.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      “(btw, it aint me calling for such a day, just being the devil’s advocate and placing the arguments).”

                      Great, thanks for letting me know I’ve been wasting my time. The problem with arguing other people’s beliefs is that you don’t have the required insight to defend them. Makes sense now.

                      So, the question, given that you aren’t calling for a national day… do you want a national day or not? Why? why not?

                    • UpandComer

                      Why not have both.

                      Have a day that I suppose acknowledges the work that ‘has’ been done to compensate and address Maori grievances, like a New Zealand day where we don’t need to go through the ritualised protest and spitting etc.

                      It can be like Australia day – give everyone a public holiday where you can head to the beach, have a barbie, watch some fireworks, and celebrate the good things in NZ.

                      Keep Waitangi day too however, where you acknowledge ongoing issues and put Maori accompilshments and concerns front and centre

                      My feeling is that a day like that might actually be a catalyst for increased Nationalism. It doesn’t seem necessary to me that Nationalism has to precede the day. The day would be an opportunity to express, affirm and feed a sense of Nationalism.

                      Draco if some inchoate sense of ‘resolution’ of ‘race relations’ is a predicate for a National day, it will never happen, which would be a real shame. Of course a contrarian such as yourself is always going to see the cracks, but it would be nice relegate these as secondary to the sound parts of the structure for one day of the year.

                    • vto

                      No CW, you haven’t been wasting your time. I think it is a good idea and it fits all sorts of narratives around how a society needs to operate. So while I have never called for one, imo the idea is sound and has many redeeming features.

                      Draco the Bastard, when I said this above … “I think they nt a day which is about celebration…”

                      and you replied with this … “And they can have that just as soon as we’ve corrected for the injustices of the past as then we’ll have something to celebrate.”

                      I suggested that your suggestion was miserly.

                      But in fact, more importantly, it must be kept in mind that the Treaty was between Maori and the British Crown. It was not between Maori and other people in NZ, nor between Maori and non-Maori. It is the Crown’s obligation to amend for its poor ways – don’t confuse the parties or who owes the obligations under this treaty.

                      But that is what you have done. Your statement implies that people in the street should somehow be made to pay (by way of not having a national day of celebration until past treaty cock-ups are remedied).

                      Completely wrong-headed.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      @UpandComer

                      Why not have both.

                      Keep Waitangi day too however, where you acknowledge ongoing issues and put Maori accompilshments and concerns front and centre

                      Because it’s an attempt to sideline the issues that some people don’t want to address.

                      Draco if some inchoate sense of ‘resolution’ of ‘race relations’ is a predicate for a National day, it will never happen, which would be a real shame.

                      Of course it will – as soon as some fuckwits get over themselves and admit that there are injustices that need addressing.

                      @vto

                      But in fact, more importantly, it must be kept in mind that the Treaty was between Maori and the British Crown. It was not between Maori and other people in NZ, nor between Maori and non-Maori.

                      And those other people wouldn’t have been able to come in if not for Te Tiriti O Waitangi. Well, they would have been able but it would have been under different conditions than what applies. Probably far worse.

                      But that is what you have done. Your statement implies that people in the street should somehow be made to pay (by way of not having a national day of celebration until past treaty cock-ups are remedied).

                      No I didn’t. There’s no payment involved at all.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    “There is clearly demand for something as the issue of a national day continues to crop up.”

                    Outside of reaction to Waitangi Day, where is the call for a national day?

                    • vto

                      April 25th each year the same call goes up.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Some examples please vto.

                    • vto

                      Actual examples of specific person and specific words? Sorry mate, aint spending time searching the net for that but come back to me on April 26 when this year’s examples will be front page news again.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      A couple of web links to media or something would have done. Will take it as a personal anecdote then vto, rather than lots of people in NZ calling for a national day around the time of ANZAC day.

                    • vto

                      *sigh* http://www.btob.co.nz/article/call-new-national-day

                      It’s just one of course and may not satisfy

                    • Colonial Weka

                      Interesting link. It doesn’t reference ANZAC day though, only Waitangi Day, which proves my point. I can’t see a date on the article though.

                      Besides which, the whole article is about redefining NZ in relationship to its independence from the UK, rather than seeing the Treaty as being a founding document for NZ. By doing so, he is essentially saying that NZ = what British descendants think/do.

                      And he wants to artificially create something to replace something that already exists and has significant cultural value.

                      His views on Te Tiriti and what it was/is are incredibly eurocentric :-(

                    • Pascal's bookie

                      “But it was primarily concerned with recognising Maori as British subjects, and acknowledging the governing role of the Westminster-based parliament in England. In that respect, it was essentially a truce with an occupying power – not the founding document of a modern nation.”

                      That’s just wrong. The Treaty didn’t ‘recognise’ that Maori were British subjects, nor did it ‘acknowledge’ that the UK govt was the governing power. It established those things. Prior to the Treaty, those things were not true, after it, they were.

                      The Crown acknowledged that prior to the treaty, iwi were the rightful governing authority. They weren’t an ‘occupying power’ in any respect, and it wasn’t a ‘truce’.

                      It’s these sort of fundamental disputes that need to be worked out if we are going to be happily ‘celebrating nationhood’. And they aren’t really things that ‘just opinion’.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    There is clearly demand for something as the issue of a national day continues to crop up.

                    Is there or is it just that the MSM are helping with the rights put up job?

            • BM 3.1.1.3.2.2

              where is the evidence that NZers have that degree of nationalism?

              Why do you think the All blacks are so popular?

              • Colonial Viper

                Advertising and sponsorship

                • BM

                  Yeah, that’s it.

                  • Colonial Weka

                    Not sure how old you are BM, but there has been a big shift in the status of the All Blacks and rugby, and sports in general, since it went corporate.

                    • freedom

                      just from general discussion over brews:
                      bringing AIG on board was for many fans, a very large nail in the AB’s coffin .

              • cricklewood

                Waitangi day in London would count as a degree in nationalism, many may frown on the cringe worthy antics but none the less it is a bunch of proud kiwis celebrating where they are from…

          • Pascal's bookie 3.1.1.3.3

            hahahaha. Classic.

            ‘Who we are’ is a country with a bunch of ‘racial bullshit’ going on. We can either sort it out, or ignore it. But we can’t sort it out by ignoring it. But good luck in trying; like I said, I love a good laugh.

            • prism 3.1.1.3.3.1

              Pascals B
              +1

            • rosy 3.1.1.3.3.2

              +1

              And what is it with all this nationalistic stuff anyway? I like that New Zealanders always seemed to be aware of who they were without putting on a show. Those shows are more divisive in national and international terms that a few over-reported protests about legitimate failures.

              Is everyone who wants a celebration of a national day sure every other country they’re quoting has a fully celebratory day…. aborigines in Australia, First Nations people in Canada, the U.S. and Central and South America? And European countries have divisions that go back years… do the Cornish people fully celebrate St Georges Day? (btw does the UK have a national day?).

              Rose-tinted glasses. I like that we have Waitangi Day as a national day, warts and all. That’s what a nation is – lots of fussing and arguing but through that a respect for the good points and an understanding and desire to improve the not so good.

      • Colonial Weka 3.1.2

        ““I’ve taken lots of flak and now I’m a bit gun shy. When you are pushed into a corner you don’t necessarily come out fighting.””

        How convenient is that excuse. What did she think would happen taking on this particular job? How is she going to handle any controversial decisions she has to make if she can’t stand her ground this early on?

      • Pascal's bookie 3.1.3

        I, erm. liked this bit:

        Devoy says she doesn’t want to become so scared that she’s not be able to express a viewpoint. “We have become indoctrinated by this whole politically correct thing and I certainly don’t want to be involved with that. I just tell myself I’m going to be my own person.”

        Though, she admits, this will be her last interview for a while.

        Hoo boy.

        • Colonial Viper 3.1.3.1

          Her conceptualisation of the role appears to remain all about her and very little about the role itself and the job which needs to be done.

          • Colonial Viper 3.1.3.1.1

            Some generic career advice for Devoy:

            Speak on behalf of the position and the points that it needs to make, not on behalf of yourself and the points that you need to make.

            • vto 3.1.3.1.1.1

              Yep, it seems clear from her utterances that she believes it is important for her to express her own opinions in the role rather than the views required for the position. This is further evidence of why she is unqualified for the role.

              This sort of outlook generally stems from an over-confident person. Over-confidence leads to all manner of troubles, especially in such a sensitive position.

              • felix

                Yep. And it’s pretty much the inevitable result of appointing people on the basis of their celebrity.

              • Colonial Viper

                This is further evidence of why she is unqualified for the role.

                Interestingly, I think we may have been slightly missing the mark with Devoy. It looks to me like it’s professional inexperience which will be her biggest issue, not her qualifications.

          • pollywog 3.1.3.1.2

            BRING BACK BUCK!!!

            An infinitely far better choice for the job.

            Any racialist shit would get sorted out in the dressing room!!!

  4. Morrissey 4

    The Devaluation and Demeaning of Public Life
    Why Dame Susan Devoy’s farcical appointment should not be a surprise

    The bizarre Devoy appointment has been damned by nearly everyone. One of the most frequently heard criticisms is that the ridiculous installation of the Dame is “inexplicable”. I don’t think it is.

    This unholy ACT/National/Dunne/Maori Party regime has established a pattern of devaluing and trivialising public institutions. On television yesterday, conservationist Guy Salmon said that he has worked with conservation ministers since 1971, but until now he has never met one who has tried to LOWER environmental standards.

    So it’s not really a surprise to see Key and Joyce—let’s not pretend that Judith Collins was the genius behind this—appointing to the position of Race Relations Commissioner a grossly unsuitable person who has repeatedly voiced and written racist opinions.

    Next up: expect an interesting new Human Rights Commissioner. My bet is it will be either Kyle Chapman or Garth McVicar.

    • muzza 4.1

      Mozza, you have got that right!

      There is a very deliberate degrading of the public institutions, which is actually not confined to NZ.

      Take something which has a public good (even if its somewhat token), and turn it to a farce, such that people are no longer interested, because *its a bad joke*

      Thats how you get rid of something you don’t want there, its rather simple, and very transparent!

    • RedBaronCV 4.2

      Didn’t see that programme. I was under the impression that Salmon and Nick Smith were close and that Salmon was the the favourite blue-greenie. Is there a rift coming here – does Salmon suddenly wake up to the fact he is being used?

      BTW dealing with Conservation Ministers since 1971 Guy? C’mon I have good sources that say something more like “student parties”.

      • Colonial Viper 4.2.1

        Guy Salmon is a very smart operator and hugely respected. Not one to be underestimated.

        • RedBaronCV 4.2.1.1

          Forgot to say – I do appreciate him drawing attention to the lowering of conservation standards.

  5. freedom 5

    just watched TV3’s 3-60 for the first time,
    my brain hurts

    the current global stream of cowardice being expressed by the MSM translates as ‘wow we sure got duped aboout WMD in Iraq’ Even BBC on UKTV is doing some whitewash story later on.

    These were International War Crimes most blatant and indefensible yet those responsible are being treated as if they were caught travelling in a bus lane. The MSM were complicit in the lie as any basic journalistic method of fact checking and asking follow up questions would have exposed the lie well before the white phosporus began to fall, but that as they say is a story to lie about another day.

    • RedLogix 5.1

      +1 Yes.

      I knew from reading a handful of good blogs back then that absolutely for certain Iraq did not have WMD’s and that the entire pretext for the war was mendacious, criminal lies.

      I also recall quite clearly marching down Wellington streets in protest.

      So yes … absolute cowardice from the MSM who’ve completely failed to name the obvious, that GW Bush and Tony Blair are war criminals.

      • vto 5.1.1

        Tony Blair and Rupert Murdoch were close. They admit it themselves. Crooked in the most extreme of extremities.

    • joe90 6.1

      http://i.imgur.com/2Pt1F.gif *

      *offensive, contains insight into the workings of the fundy mind

    • chris73 acualy is Dolan 6.2

      Those are good, I like this way as well:

      http://julieborowski.wordpress.com/2013/02/27/how-to-avoid-rape/

      • QoT 6.2.1

        She’s full of shit.

        1. The “advice” to pee or puke on a rapist is not from “experts”, it’s from one book, published 1975, by Frederic Storaska which was based on nine-tenths of “fuck all”. [citation: Brownmiller, Susan, In Our Time, Dell: New York, 1999, p223]

        2. Guns don’t stop rape. Guns don’t stop most crimes. We can tell by the way the United States isn’t a crime-free utopia.

        As Zerlina Maxwell has come under fire (pun!) for pointing out, putting the onus on women to prevent rape is not only pointless, but destructive. Let’s stop rapists committing rapes, why don’t we?

        • chris73 acualy is Dolan 6.2.1.1

          I agree its certainly not from experts but it was recently rehashed:

          http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2013/02/colorado-college-advises-students-to-urinate-vomit-to-stop-rapists/

          Having someone point a 9mm at me would certainly stop me from doing whatever illegal activity I was doing at the time

          • Colonial Viper 6.2.1.1.1

            Having someone point a 9mm at me would certainly stop me from doing whatever illegal activity I was doing at the time

            Don’t worry about that mate, just take it off them and shoot them with their own weapon.

            That happens to dozens of police officers in the USA every year.

            • chris73 acualy is Dolan 6.2.1.1.1.1

              I just think that women arming themselves is a proactive step towards protecting themselves from rape

              Of course no one should be raping anyone in the first place

              • millsy

                If the KKK had access to firearms, there would be dead blacks everywhere.

                • chris73 acualy is Dolan

                  You’ve said some dumb ass things in your time but thats up…you’re special all right

              • AsleepWhileWalking

                I think that when the police start warning potential rapists they will be hunted down in preference of telling women that they should avoid going out…just in case..THAT will be a proactive start.

                I object to the idea of having to carry around a fucking GUN and deal with the potential trauma of having killed another human being to enforce what is my legal right to begin with.

              • Colonial Weka

                “I just think that women arming themselves is a proactive step towards protecting themselves from rape”

                Yes, that’s what you think, but it’s a stupid idea. Can you please listen to why that is? People are telling you here.

                Another reason – if women arm themselves to protect themselves from rapists, then rapists will also arm themselves. Or are you suggesting that only women be allowed to bear arms?

                • chris73 acualy is Dolan

                  Yes, that’s what you think, but it’s a stupid idea. Can you please listen to why that is? People are telling you here.

                  – There have been no compelling arguments for not arming yourself

                  if women arm themselves to protect themselves from rapists, then rapists will also arm themselves. Or are you suggesting that only women be allowed to bear arms

                  – men have the inherent advantage of (generally) being larger and stronger, guns however are a great equalizer because it doesn’t take much strength to use (negating the strength factor) and are used at a distance (negating the size factor)

                  If men carry guns as well then its still men and women being equal as opposed to men having the advantage over women

                  • Colonial Viper

                    If men carry guns as well then its still men and women being equal as opposed to men having the advantage over women

                    Still don’t understand why you’re pursuing the US model of failure.

          • QoT 6.2.1.1.2

            After you’ve been jumped from behind and whacked on the head with a ballpeen hammer, like the victims of Peter Sutcliffe?

            When the person who rapes you has drugged your drink and you’re unconscious?

            When it’s your partner attacking you and you’re in bed and the gun’s in your bag?

            When there’s six of them?

            Wow. Guns are magical.

  6. pollywog 7

    -Three-quarters of Sunday Star-Times readers believe we should follow Australia and prohibit cabinet ministers from buying shares in state-owned companies they decide to sell.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8465532/Call-to-ban-ministers-from-share-float

    Not just cabinet ministers, but all mp’s!

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      Southern plantation owners like the sound of this

    • vto 8.2

      FFS, do people not know any history of humankind at all?

      Nothing more dangerous than influential fools.

      • pollywog 8.2.1

        Useful idiots?

        • vto 8.2.1.1

          Ha ha yep though they tend to be more amusing than anything. Did you have any of them on your oceanic voyage recently?

          • pollywog 8.2.1.1.1

            If I were to be cynical, I’d say we all were to some degree.

            The voyage was maybe more about making a movie than it was about making a difference .In real terms it won’t change the Pasifikan outlook with regards to interacting with our environment.

            We, in supposedly being put forward as a metaphor for sustainability, are more likely metaphors for tokenism, lip service and welfare dependency.

            It’s all about what we as individual crew decide to do in following up what we learnt and how it changed us to pass on that knowledge to future generations to use that’s important.

            Each one, teach one…

    • Colonial Weka 8.3

      He is suggesting a starting pay rate of $6/hr.

      • freedom 8.3.1

        i guarantee he has not considered the abatement or the secondary tax situation,
        see my post below

    • freedom 8.4

      If they want to do something useful to help the unemployed better their situation then let the unemployed build graft and climb every way they can. Selling them for $2 an hour is not going to do anything but piss off a whole lot of angry people. The fastest easiest and most economically practical method is to use the existing graduated tax rate and get rid of the Secondary Tax that takes 70c in every dollar earned over the $100 abatement.

      No other group in NZ gets hammered so punitively for trying to grasp at crumbs from the table of Poverty Line living. In addition to being a self defeating motivational failure the dinosaur of Secondary Tax takes 70 c in every dollar away from the local economy where that dollar would have been spent in its entirity and would have eventually entered the tax stream. Instead it steals the earnings of the poor and slides it straight across to service 150+ billion dollars of debt that the poor did not create.

      This latest brainfart from king dickhead highlights nothing but he lack of rational thought that exists in power today.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.4.1

        It’s possible to do a tax form and get any excess money paid in tax back. What we’re really fighting with secondary tax is the old way of doing things before we had computers and fast internet that could do the taxes in real time.

        • freedom 8.4.1.1

          Draco, you must know something i don’t. ;)
          ( when it comes to reaping rewards that is not hard)

          Years back when i was last on a benefit I argued the injustice of this point repeatedly and have never had a cent returned. Please tell me the name of your accountant and do they barter? With my redundancy, and no severance, I may have to ask the Gov for some temporary assistance and I would love to know I won’t be forking over 70 % of any carvings or other art I might actually sell before I get back on independant street again.

          • Colonial Weka 8.4.1.1.1

            The abatement isn’t an income tax (DTB is talking about income tax). It’s an abatement ie it gets taken directly off the beneficiary before payment (or the week after), rather than going through IRD.

            freedom, I agree but I haven’t seen the figures laid out in a way that is fair for minimum wage earners. If a beneficiary’s first $200 is labour free, why should minimum wager earners have to work for that? A universal income would solve the problem but is a long way off as a political possibility. A voluntary work for dole scheme might make it fairer, if we had sane and fair governments, but again, that’s unlikely at this point. What else?

            • freedom 8.4.1.1.1.1

              two points CW

              1: it may not technically be processed by IRD but if a one off payment for a sale arrives of $500 and $400 of that gets abated at 70c in the dollar, I call that a tax.

              It doesn’t magically stop once the total of the benefit payment for that week is reached.
              ( this is an actual personal example from a few years back and from a discussion on the phone yesterday I understand that nothing has changed) (Where are the abatement penalties for those receiving WFF or the Farmers Assistance by the way?)

              The one size fits all criteria is part of the problem but the principal issue is that the whole structure is pigheaded stupid if you want poor people to do more to contribute to their assistance and the economy as a whole.

              which leads us into point 2

              2: the only fair process for minimum wage earners/benes/ everyone who earns under 25k a year is a tax free allowance like our trading partners enjoy, e.g
              : Australia = 18 thousand dollars before income tax applies, why?

              because they understand every single cent goes directly into the daily economy not into the vast reservoirs of term deposits, trusts and trading floors. But for some reasons Governments only consider that if poor people earn more they may need less and then it is harder to bash them.

              • Draco T Bastard

                The one size fits all criteria is part of the problem but the principal issue is that the whole structure is pigheaded stupid if you want poor people to do more to contribute to their assistance and the economy as a whole.

                The government doesn’t want poor people actually doing anything to help themselves. If they did that and succeeded then there wouldn’t be any one to work for the rich and the rich would lose their profits.

                2: the only fair process for minimum wage earners/benes/ everyone who earns under 25k a year is a tax free allowance like our trading partners enjoy

                Personally, I’d prefer a Universal Income.

                • freedom

                  UI is basically the same as a Tax Free Allowance with the only difference that TFA injects cash directly into a person’s life and then into the economy not vice-versa.

                  or am I confused? it’s been a busy weekend and with only hours to go before my employment is over the brain is starting to sidetrack to little details like’ hey how are we going to eat next week?’

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Actually, a Tax Free Allowance would be a Universal Income and no country does that. I was reading tax free bracket which Australia and a few other countries have.

                    • Colonial Weka

                      I’m confused now.

                      How does the tax free bracket make it fair for low wage earners if people on the dole get their first $200 without having to to work for it?

                      btw, freedom, yes call it a tax in the general sense, but be aware that it will confuse people. And like I said, it’s not income tax in the sense that most people would understand it in NZ.

  7. pollywog 9

    Papers released under the Official Information Act reveal that, for more than a year, the Grant Dalton-led America’s Cup team failed to provide the quarterly reports it was supposed to send in order to receive payments.

    But no-one from the Ministry of Economic Development followed up on the lapse and Dalton said in an email that earlier reports the team had sent had “disappeared into a black hole” at the ministry.

    Economic Development Minister Steven Joyce told the Star-Times he was concerned…

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/8465472/Team-NZ-accounts-disappear-into-a-black-hole

    General Rumblefuck is concerned, but I’m sure Major Stumblefuck is pretty relaxed so no fucking worries…

    Just keep turning a blind eye til the lack of accountability hits the hundreds of millions of dollars. Anything less is chump change.

    SCF, Novopay, Solid Energy…Blame Labour and move on!

  8. Something to listen to on a Sunday afternoon: Max and Stacey: Italy, Spain And

    Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

    Are Changing the Law for Wealth Confiscation. But hey, no conspiracies happening here.

  9. HOW IS IT NOT A FORM OF CORRUPT PRACTICE FOR MPS, ESPECIALLY MINISTERS, TO BE ABLE TO BUY SHARES IN STATE ASSETS WHICH THEY HAVE VOTED TO SELL OFF?

    How is this not ‘misuse of public office for private gain’? ie: A CORRUPT PRACTICE?

    Is ‘shonky’ John Key going to buy shares in Mighty River Power?

    (We already know he’s an ‘insider trader’ – remember Tranz Rail?)

    And – he owns shares in the Bank of America – which would be UNLAWFUL if he was the Prime Minister of Australia!

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8465532/Call-to-ban-ministers-from-share-float

    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’
    2013 Auckland Mayoral Candidate

  10. prism 12

    The Ministry of Education is making it difficult for the children of outlying towns to get to Colleges in Dunedin and Whangarei. Free transport options are being withdrawn and the cost mounts up over a year for multiple children if parents want to support them travelling into the near city to get their secondary learning at a school that is right for them.

    Lord Rutherford was a boy in a very small place, but got the education that enabled him to develop his work, make discoveries and we are still living in the reflected glory of the plaudits he got. The smaller minds running government don’t aspire to greatness of thinking beyond the track their minds are fixed on. No side issues to their conceptions of good practice (usually cheapness) can distract them.

  11. joe90 13

    The Venn diagram of irrational nonsense.

    from.

    • Colonial Weka 13.1

      from…. some extreme fundamentalists :roll:

      • joe90 13.1.1

        bah!, thought I’d fixed it.

        From: http://crispian-jago.blogspot.co.uk/

        • ghostrider888 13.1.1.1

          a “blunt instrument” indeed! A RW Fascist site?

        • Draco T Bastard 13.1.1.2

          Your first link went direct to the picture. This is the link to the blog post.

        • One Tāne Huna 13.1.1.3

          OOBEs certainly don’t belong there.

          Here the authors marshal evidence from neurology, cognitive neuroscience, and neuroimaging that suggests that OBEs are related to a failure to integrate multisensory information from one’s own body at the temporo-parietal junction (TPJ). It is argued that this multisensory disintegration at the TPJ leads to the disruption of several phenomenological and cognitive aspects of self-processing, causing illusory reduplication, illusory self-location, illusory perspective, and illusory agency that are experienced as an OBE.

          • ghostrider888 13.1.1.3.1

            “mindfulness” from abstract;
            -attention regulation
            -emotion regulation etc;

            =synergistic neuroplastic changes, or, to tell another story, clay re-moulded. :)

  12. ghostrider888 14

    re earlier denial of “Boy Racer” culture persisting;
    CHCH boy racers form “Christchurch Anti- Police Riot Squad”, and boy racer disorder features as primary tele news article.

    Zespri; “smuggling” 11M fine, to be born by growers, not the marketing desk, may be the final staple in the industry.

    from Q & A;
    ol’ Pita aye, Power, then ultimate power corrupts!

    Nick Smith; hiding behind the “kiwis own home dream”;
    -“post-war, home ownership has been positively correlated with low interest rates.” Hmmmm.
    -over last five years of “low interest rates”???
    -according to the Productivity Commission, the price of building materials in NZ is 30% higher than Aus.
    ]
    Stephen Franks; “the Auckland Regional Council will not be representing the interests of the wider populace of the region.” (implying that it will represent the vested interests,and the inevitable NIMBYs). he appears to be not a very egalitarian sort himself however, while Sandra Lee appears to be fading…

    According to an NZIER analysis, if the present rate of migration by NZers to Aus continues (although there are signs of some negative feed-back signals entering the system, migration was down last month) there would be a loss of $30B to NZ of “lost human capital”.

    According to one commentary on Cyprus I chanced upon (Dragons Den businessman), the EU requirements are a trial run by Germany et al: to see if they can transfer the approach to Spain, Portugal, etc.

    Did you know that a significant land area of the Scottish Highlands used to be covered in Caledonian Pine up until a few hundred years ago, and naturally carried moose, lynx, bear and wolves: now it primarily carries Red Deer, Salmon and Grouse. (a wealthy estate-holder is attempting to return his section of the region to how it was).

    “For what shall it profit a man if he gain the whole world, (or the dancers of the Bolshoi) yet lose his soul.”

    • Colonial Viper 14.1

      According to one commentary on Cyprus I chanced upon (Dragons Den businessman), the EU requirements are a trial run by Germany et al: to see if they can transfer the approach to Spain, Portugal, etc.

      If sovereign governments and elected politicians think they still run their own countries, they’re about to find out (again) who is really in charge.

      • Harriet 14.1.1

        Good luck with NZ’s Left wanting to raise taxes:

        As NZ is not going to go ‘broke’ anytime soon!

        If the children of the ‘left’ in Europe can do with less money so as to pay banks….then NZ kids certainly don’t ‘need’ anyone else’s money! :cool:

        • Colonial Viper 14.1.1.1

          You do know how much money English is borrowing right?

          • McFlock 14.1.1.1.1

            we’re rich right up until the creditors come calling, then… TINA.
            Seen it before, thirty-odd years ago.

          • Harriet 14.1.1.1.2

            Yes I do. But the point is:

            Any additional tax revenue from the NZ economy improving is now ‘earmarked’ for debt repayment. The left in Europe have just given reason for that:

            if the government don’t contain risk then the government is prepared to take your property as a last resort.

            And as the left in NZ keep pointing out – the government is still borrowing.

            Time to ‘privatise’ all the assets and government services too. :cool:

            • AsleepWhileWalking 14.1.1.1.2.1

              Your arguments are a bit hard to track. I don’t think you are actually making sense.

            • McFlock 14.1.1.1.2.2

              that shit doesn’t even follow.

              You do realise that it’s smarter to keep the energy company dividends to pay down debt than hock off ownership to put a one-off drop in the bucket? Shit, if a beneficiary did what the government’s doing, tories would be screaming about “bad choices” and “lifestyle options”.

              • freedom

                hey McFlock, don’t you just love the bit about privatising all services too, cool no more taxes weehah !!!

                only pay for what you use ? rock on self sufficiency !

                silly people are funny

            • ghostrider888 14.1.1.1.2.3

              Dear “Harriet”
              “Glory Glory Hallelujah, just like a knife it cuts right through ya,
              Glory Glory Hallelujah, just like a lie, I see right through ya…”
              Yeehaaa
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kq0vPSadqU

              Yours faithfully, The Ghost Rider

            • freedom 14.1.1.1.2.4

              so if you would be so kind Harriet, how much is the current debt total ?

              and what was it in 2008 ???

              and what has it all been spent on ?????????

            • Draco T Bastard 14.1.1.1.2.5

              Time to ‘privatise’ all the assets and government services too.

              We dumped feudalism for a very good reason – no need to bring it back no matter what the rich think. What we really need to do is to get rid of capitalism and then we’d have the freedom that we’ve been fighting for for the last few hundred years.

        • One Tāne Huna 14.1.1.2

          Where are all the well-informed intelligent wingnuts? It’s almost as though they don’t exist.

        • xtasy 14.1.1.3

          Harriet: NO need to raise taxes, all the left needs to do is seize your assets!

  13. Draco T Bastard 15

    Top Banking Analyst: Subsidies to Giant Banks Exceed $780 Billion Dollars Per YEAR

    [These are] structural subsidies blessed by Congress and the Fed that make large banks look more profitable than they truly are. In fact, the TBTF banks are not really profitable at all.

    That’s got to be the biggest shocker of all – that banks aren’t profitable without government subsidies.

    • Jenny 15.1

      Socialism for the Bankers.

    • Draco T Bastard 15.2

      and there’s this one from Positive Money (UK):

      it is hard to see why institutions whose failure cannot be contemplated should be in the private sector in the first place.

      And this one:

      For every £X deposited, banks promise (implicitly or explicitly) to return £X (possibly plus some interest and possibly less bank charges). But at the same time, banks lend on or invest the £X in ways that are not 100% safe. Thus it’s a statistical certainty that sooner or later any given bank will go bust, and not be able to return the £X.

      Governments back deposits with taxpayers’ money and this amounts to a subsidy of FR banking.

      Out of all that comes a serious question: How much are the banks in NZ subsidised? How much are they costing us per year?

    • Colonial Viper 15.3

      That’s got to be the biggest shocker of all – that banks aren’t profitable without government subsidies.

      In fact that’s not the real shocker.

      It’s the fact that several major banks may be trading while literally insolvent, and that the free liquidity being provided to them is masking that.

  14. Tim 16

    … and JUST IN! 9!@#$%^&) Mainstream Media EXPOSES naughty goings-on and EXPLOITATION
    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/rebuilding-christchurch/8465471/Rebuild-jobs-scam-exposed

    I think it was a week ago – maybe more, that RNZ (Phillipa Tolley) looked at various scams.
    I (myself) have a complaint with the old Labour Dear-Part ment – reference number and all – now more than a year old – blacker than the Black Hole of Calcutta!

    Just so ya know – I’m not all that impreesed with alternative media either! Often it seems the plight of minorities gets on an agenda IF and WHEN it fits.

    So much for a 4th Estate – and actually so much for ‘the new 4th Estate’.

  15. prism 17

    This NZer in Canada, Farley cut his electronic bracelet and has gone on to attack women.
    Why did someone who calls himself a Judge judge that this was appropriate. Females don’t count for anything apparently. They and children are used as canaries in the dark pit of these men’s minds to see if they are suitably civilised to be left to live in the community. If they reoffend it’s such a shame, and there is hou ha about it.

    The point is that they should never get out. The country comes down harder on women on benefits who have got more over the years because they had some sort of relationship with a bloke, and welfare can be harsh and unreasonable in judging about this. It’s time that these soulless decision makers found some integrity and more ba.ls instead of so much ba.l..

    • Draco T Bastard 17.1

      WTF are you on about? Farley had the bracket for receiving stolen goods. The second charge would likely have put him in jail:

      Michael Edward Farley, 39, left New Zealand in July 2011 using a false passport.

      At that time he was serving a home detention sentence in Palmerston North on charges of receiving stolen goods and was due to be sentenced on a further charge of perverting the course of justice, the Manawatu Standard reports.

      What I want to know is how he managed to get a false passport. His brother is being charged with assisting him to get that but there must also have been someone else as a passport requires two people to testify that they know you.

      Anyway, it’s obvious that we need to up the security of getting passports in NZ.

      • prism 17.1.1

        Right DTB – I was way off the facts. But I believe that violent people have often committed numbers of crimes before the one that they are accused of. A person doesn’t commit a serious crime without an apprenticeship.

        • Colonial Viper 17.1.1.1

          A person doesn’t commit a serious crime without an apprenticeship.

          And Corrections facilities create thousands such training opportunities per year.

          • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1.1.1

            And that too. Keeping people out of prison as much as possible is a good idea. Obviously need better bracelets though.

        • Draco T Bastard 17.1.1.2

          I wouldn’t be surprised if he had committed other crime including sex crimes. He found it way too easy to get that passport which would mean that he’s well connected within the criminal world.

          The judge couldn’t rule on what he’s possibly done though, only what he’s been convicted of and receiving stolen goods isn’t much more than a misdemeanor.

          • prism 17.1.1.2.1

            DTB
            It would be interesting for police with unsolved crimes to look at whether he was around at the time. Not trying to pin stuff on him, but to bring him into the bunch of possible offenders. And again I come back to how long he will be imprisoned. He is the type of individual addicted to criminality and viciousness who should stay in prison. The numbers of criminals like this are a small percentage.

            The prison population overall can be reduced by shorter sentences for lesser offences, not long punitive ones where they only receive rehabilitation courses just before release. The whole prison sentence should be turned to retraining and building the individual’s personal standards and self-belief in themselves as a person of worth with a mental kit of ways of dealing with threats to themselves, their psyche, their property. Initiatives won’t happen with the moronic bunch of politicians we continually see dabbling with Laura Norder.

  16. prism 18

    I notice John Howard is quite sure that he was right in bringing in the swingeing laws against NZers. Of course he can make a case for anything, even the Tampa people floundering in the sea. He considered that they were just attention-seekers, willing to sacrifice children. Which would have been a bad thing. But when he judges himself he can do anything and make a case for it being good. What a twister.

    And Julia Gillard and her lot aren’t going to change the discriminatory legislation against us. And our pollies are as I have said earlier, too busy buttering their own bread on both sides and both sides of the Tasman, to worry – we’re just toast. I caught some mention of condescending treatment, and I guess that would be Aussies against NZers, not the other way round.

    I got to edit this – just to try to make it less rambly.

  17. millsy 19

    I would love to know why McCullum didnt enforce the follow on.

    A 239 run lead, with 2 days to do. Putting England in to bat again would have ensured, at the very least a draw, a squared series and honour intact, and at the most, a rare test victory against England and their first series win since 1999 (first at home since just before Rogernomics kicked in, Feb 1984), at 35/3, the Black Caps risk screwing up and letting England take the test and the series.

    Anyway, we shall see how things pan out at Eden Park in the next couple of days…

    And Harriet. the earth was created with science, not magic.

    • Colonial Viper 19.1

      And Harriet. the earth was created with science, not magic.

      Rly? So it should be easy to repeat and come up with the same result?

      • Colonial Weka 19.1.1

        lolz. Good one CV.

        • Colonial Viper 19.1.1.1

          As an aside, belief in science can become it’s very own religion.

          And scientific fundamentalism is the same as any other religious fundamentalism: where their way is the only correct way of thinking about and looking at the entire world. And if your beliefs don’t match up with their accepted orthodoxy satisfactorily, then you are nothing more than a backward infidel, heretic or barbarian worthy of dismissive scorn and disrespect.

          • Colonial Weka 19.1.1.1.1

            QFT. And unlike other fundamentalists they’re completely blind to their fundamentalism.

          • Morrissey 19.1.1.1.2

            As an aside, belief in science can become its very own religion.

            Nonsense. You are contending that to oppose or radically differ from something means you are the equal and opposite of that which you oppose or radically differ from. That’s a logical fallacy.

            And scientific fundamentalism is the same as any other religious fundamentalism…

            Nonsense. That’s exactly the sort of garbage that appears in Fundamentalist Christian literature.

    • Ad 19.2

      God those Circket people do my fucking head in – I guess I just have to savour the afternoon.

      Uncharitably as those last 3 wickets fell, I was reminded of that old line that the best way to get a small to medium sized company is hand a huge company to a New Zealander and come back in a year. Sigh.

    • chris73 acualy is Dolan 19.3

      I suspect that they thought the pitch was going to break up even more so if England managed to eck out a 100 run lead it might have been too much for NZ to get facing Anderson and Panesar.

      Whereas this way they can extend the lead, take up a bit more time, wear the pitch out even more and make it even harder for England so I can see the logic in why they chose not to enforce the follow on.

      I would have enforced the follow on though

  18. freedom 20

    re http://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-24032013/#comment-608939

    Society under capitalism can never be equal or fair . . . but it can be better. I am no expert and it is obviously an overly simplistic concept for a difficult problem but so was the hairclip, and a kiwi solved that little problem too. With over four million of us surely we can fix this tangled mess. All I know is for things to improve the change must be extreme, but you start small

    At its most basic level of explanation: If the first 15 K of income was tax free ?

    We would see low wage communities with more stable local businesses. Many new small businesses servicing the needs of their local community would flourish [read: return].

    Families would have more which means they would have better fed kids, meaning fewer doctor visits amongst other savings. These savings are just a fraction of what is possible to pass on to the Nation as a whole. Along with the increased tax take from the growing stable of local businesses (whose profits would generally stay onshore ) we would have greater employment thus fewer in need, We could easily allow for the support of those who do need it, and how you treat those unable to help themselves says more about your society than any GDP figure ever will.

    These basic tenets of a decent society would germinate into greater equality and wider opportunities for all.

    Add an FTT and before you know it we are back to full funding of education as well, including Tertiary. Throw a Health & Welfare tax onto all gambling and kiwiland is almost standing on its own feet again. The tax take from Lotto alone would be substantial. The Casinos will bitch but stay, the Racing brigade will swallow it and if the owners of Lotto don’t like it then rip up the contract and let Bonus Bonds off the chain and give it a new sparkly jacket. Booze could do with a good looking at also.

    Then there is the big step, every dollar above 15K is taxed. Every dollar. Every woman every man every business every sale every trade everything is taxed with no exemptions. It is not news that those with more pay less because they can. If you want a more equitable society you must have a more equitable tax system. The one we curently have is a joke. Cue RWNJ’s But But But companies will abandon the country etc etc etc, The Corporate World has been playing a bluff for a really long time and it needs to be called on it. I believe New Zealand would survive because it would remember that it can.

    Naturally all of that means that a few have to take little less but then the many can have so much more. Your only choice is which side of that equation you want to be on.

    • Colonial Weka 20.1

      ok, but that doesn’t solve the Work and Income benefit abatement problem now. A problem for which I’ve yet to see any solution except UBI. Simply getting rid of it is both unfair on low wagers and politically impossible currently.

      • freedom 20.1.1

        so we just leave it all in the too hard basket eh!

        • Draco T Bastard 20.1.1.1

          No, a Universal Income solves it.

        • Colonial Weka 20.1.1.2

          “so we just leave it all in the too hard basket eh!”

          No. We are just talking at cross purposes. I got excited for a minute because I thought someone might have some ideas on what to do about the abatement issue now without completely rearranging society. Nothing wrong with rearranging society either :-)

      • freedom 20.1.2

        Am I out of line by thinking that the most immediate step to reducing the absurdly negative affect of the current abatement process is to return to the practical and logical policy of extra income being adjusted over the annual earnings and not processed against an individual week ?

        I will always believe that the first 10-15 K of income should be tax free as it is spent in its entirety in the local community regardless of who you are or what you earn. The low income workers, as always, bear the brunt of so many vaccuous policies. Holding them up as victims only when convenient , does little but reinforce the status quo.

        There is always going to be a need for welfare if we fumble around blindfolded looking for eternal growth instead of working steadfast and true, with eyes and minds wide open, focused on achieving a sustainable economy.

        • Colonial Weka 20.1.2.1

          “Am I out of line by thinking that the most immediate step to reducing the absurdly negative affect of the current abatement process is to return to the practical and logical policy of extra income being adjusted over the annual earnings and not processed against an individual week ?”

          That would help certainly. Most benefit to people with variable income. Not so much help to people with regular weekly part time work.

          I think they still do yearly assessments for some long term benefits, which suggests that this is something they could do for any one individual if they were do inclined.

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