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Open mike 25/10/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, October 25th, 2012 - 52 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

52 comments on “Open mike 25/10/2012”

  1. Jenny 1


    Wormtongue comes a gutser

    For giving false testimony a police case against gang members is thrown out of court. Two judges have found the police acted improperly in two gang cases. In July Judge Chris Tuohy ruled out evidence because it was “improperly obtained” through “a series of breaches of the defendants’ rights, some of which were significant infringements“. And yesterday, Justice Simon France has ordered a stay of proceedings in prosecutions of those arrested as part of Operation Explorer, a police crackdown on motorcycle gang members.

    The owner of the storage facility ”has certainly been the victim of improper police conduct”, the judge said.

    And the ”the court’s processes can truly be said to have been abused, first by the use of the warrant, and second, by the laying of a false charge”.

    He said judges had been treated ”in a disrespectful way”. A prosecutor and the defence lawyer were also misled.

    He also concluded it was ”a fundamental and serious abuse of the court’s processes”.

    Justice France said: ”The courts are not part of police investigation. There is and can be no suggestion of collaboration. The court is independent, and sworn to treat all who come before it equally and without favour.”

    Justice France also said he was ”surprised” by the lack of insight by the officers ”about the lack of propriety involved”.

    “However one looks at it, a fraud is being committed on the courts.”

    Justice France also said it appeared the police conduct had components of committing criminal offences.

    ”The search warrant would seem to engage section 256 of the Crimes Acts 1961 and the swearing of a false information would seem to engage section 110 of the Crimes Act.”

    The obvious question raised; If a case against gang members can be thrown out of court on the grounds of proven police perjury and law breaking, will the case against Dotcom be thrown out on the same grounds?

    Green party co-leader Russel Norman said it appears the police were playing ”fast and loose with the courts”.

    ”The courts are there in order to protect the rule of law. If the police start playing fast and loose with the courts they are fundamentally undermining the rule of law. In this case it has worked out pretty bad for them.”

    He said the involvement of Detective Inspector Grant Wormald in this case and the Dotcom case raises concerns

    Links:

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/7858929/Police-errors-see-two-gang-cases-unravel

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/7857337/Case-thrown-out-over-false-arrest

    • Red Rosa 1.1

      Tolley is completely out of her depth on this issue.

      Her comments on TV3 News last night were from the same script as Paula Bennett.

      There are serious points of law here that go right to the heart of this (or any) justice system.

      Russel Norman has it right.

      • tc 1.1.1

        Tolley’s depth is a toddlers paddling pool. An average local body polly at best on a good day, the vice chancellor comment from her tenure trying to execute the hollowmens education script sums her up.

    • Murray Olsen 1.2

      I’m waiting for Wormald and others to be charged over this. I won’t be holding my breath, but perjury, obstruction of justice and wasting police time are three offences that come to mind immediately. The cops have been getting away with this sort of crap for far too long.

    • Vicky32 1.3

      The obvious question raised; If a case against gang members can be thrown out of court on the grounds of proven police perjury and law breaking, will the case against Dotcom be thrown out on the same grounds?

      Let’s hope so!

      • PlanetOrphan 1.3.1

        So true Vicky.
        Everyone goes one about Johny Sparkles, and forget Dotcom is still on bail waiting for some response from American authorities.

        How many years before they give up on this one?

        Is the NZ Police force really so Farcical it has to wait for the American authorities to say Jump, before proceeding with an unwinnable case ?

        • Vicky32 1.3.1.1

          Is the NZ Police force really so Farcical it has to wait for the American authorities to say Jump, before proceeding with an unwinnable case ?

          I fear that they are, yes…

  2. muzza 2

    New Zealand Current Account
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/current-account

    (extend Date Selection to 1965 from drop-down box)

    New Zealand Exports
    http://www.tradingeconomics.com/new-zealand/exports

    (extend Date Selection to 1951 from drop-down box)

    As is plain to see, the more we export, the GREATER our current account deficit gets.

    Why?

    Because (amongst other things), profits from privatised SOEs; foreign owned farms; and foreign owned businesses are repatriated to overseas investors. (Eg; Aussie own banks which recently ‘exported’ $2 billion-plus back to Australia as dividends. That includes the privatised BNZ, and what used to to be the POSB.)

    If an exporter is foreign owned, the more they export, the more profits are made, and more dividends repatriated overseas.

    Which is the prime reason why selling farms – and other exporting companies – to overseas investors is an ultimately self-defeating exercise.

    The data shows the results.

    Data from both graphs are ex Statistics NZ.

    • freedom 2.1

      A date adjusted chart* shows a pattern where the next quarter will, most likely than not, produce a deficit of 3.5 – 7 billion dollars. How does the Minister of Finance maintain any confidence that next year we will begin to return to surplus? The universal truth of pattern matrices shows surplus to be an economic anomaly that has occurred only a handful of times in the past forty years.

      *I took it to 1968 for the ‘debt in my lifetime’ factor

  3. Rogue Trooper 3

    RT: Bani Walid, Libya; US double standards.

    BBC: France-more public spending cuts to come.
    Chinas’ economic stimulus effecting; watch China

    to paraphrase; if we are out of our mind, it is for his sake; if we are in our helpful mind, it is for you.
    :)

  4. Ben 5

    On the Green’s QE policy:
    If the NZ to USD exchange rate drops, will that mean we in New Zealand will end up paying more for locally produced goods which are exported to foreign markets?

    We are already expected to pay international prices for milk, meat, etc, and I assume that this price is based on what the NZD value of a unit of product is. If the value of the New Zealand dollar drops, that will mean the NZD value of a unit of product will increase, and because we pay international prices we’ll have to pay extra? Or am I missing something?

    • Lanthanide 5.1

      Domestic prices are much more inelastic – it’s expensive to change prices on retail shelves and throughout the supply chain. So typically price changes on staples only happen a few times a year. Consumer magazine has a monthly graph where they track the price of milk, butter, cheese, bread and I believe eggs and maybe something else. Last time I looked at it, the line was pretty flat, despite fluctuations in the NZ $ over that period.

      Now, maybe if the $ went from 80c to 60c in the course of a few months, I could imagine some price rises. But I don’t think they’ll be on the same order of magnitude. Just like how the price of crude oil only makes up approx 50% of the retail price of petrol, the raw price of commodities probably doesn’t account for more than 50-60% of the retail shelf price, perhaps even as low as 20-30% if you listen to Fonterra bleating about supermarkets making all the profits.

    • Fortran 5.2

      Ben

      you are right – similarly the price of fuel, will go up accordingly, like anything else imported eg TV’s, Computers, and similar electronics.
      Increasing the price of fuel and everything delivered goes up accordingly.

  5. ianmac 7

    I reckon that Winston has something evil planned for Mr Key. Although Mr Key will not be there at Question Time today the question 9:
    Rt Hon WINSTON PETERS to the Prime Minister: Does he stand by the answers he gave yesterday to supplementary question 5 on Oral Question No 7 and supplementary question 3 on Oral Question No 12?
    Timing is everything so….?

  6. joe90 8

    Adam Curtis on Gaddafi and the western establishment.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/adamcurtis/2012/10/hes_behind_you.html

  7. karol 9

    A step too far by Mr Speaker. 
     
    Labour raised a point of order that Brownlee didn’t answer a supplementary to Sue Moroney’s quesion 11: she asked if the government had discussions with Business NZ when they were drawing up their submission to the PPL select committee.  Brownlee responded that the government did not speak for BusNZ and vice versa.  The speaker ruled that was a valid question.  Peters raised a point of order saying id did not answer the question.
     
    The Speaker’s response to that was out of the Nat government playbook – when questioned blame the opposition.  The speaker said that “…it’s interesting that the member wants questions to be answered. I’m very gratified by that, because it certainly didn’t use to happen in this House.”
     
    The House is increasingly becoming a farce under this government and it’s speaker, with the speaker assisting in the evasions and diversions.

    • Jim Nald 9.1

      “it certainly didn’t use to happen in this House”

      Gee. That is quite remarkable coming from this Speaker. He has, up to this point today, damned the House and its proceedings – including the times when he was in the Speaker’s chair. Huh? Whatever will come next ? He will blame something he has been drinking or inhaling for making that remark?

      • karol 9.1.1

        Here is the transcript of what was said:

        Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. The question was whether there were discussions, not whether someone spoke with someone, and somebody else spoke with somebody else. The question was very narrow—were there discussions—and that goes to the core of it.
        Mr SPEAKER: I am very interested in the right honourable gentleman wanting questions to be answered. I am very gratified by that, because it certainly did not used to happen in this place. I invite the member to repeat her question.
        Rt Hon Winston Peters: I raise a point of order, Mr Speaker. What on earth did that mean? That you are criticising every previous Speaker?
        Mr SPEAKER: Order!
        Rt Hon Winston Peters: That you are a paragon of virtue?

        Actually, I understood it to be the speaker meaning that Peters didn’t used to be interested in wanting to answer questions.  But the wording is a bit vague.  Meanwhile, the speaker avoided addressing Peter’s point of order.
         
         

    • “The House is increasingly becoming a farce under this government and it’s speaker, with the speaker assisting in the evasions and diversions.”

      +1 yes Karol I agree

  8. Draco T Bastard 11

    Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it

    In other words, almost half of Israel’s population supports ethnic cleansing. I guess they feel differently about it when the shoe is on the other foot.

    Both apartheid and ethnic cleansing are crimes under international law. Israel stands condemned by its own citizens as a criminal state; it is time the international community treated it as one.

    The truth will always surface no matter how much those who want it hidden try to keep it so. Unfortunately, it does seem to take too bloody long.

  9. Rogue Trooper 12

    This laboriously won self-contempt of man.
    -Nietzsche, On the Genealogy of Morals

    Man is an invention of recent date. And one perhaps nearing it’s end.
    -Foucault

    Revisiting Sacks

    “Nietzsche was not a minor figure in the history of European thought. He was by far the most prophetic moralist, or ant-moralist, of modern times. No one saw more clearly the consequence of abandoning Christian ethics, and Nietzsche unhesitatingly drew the (neo) Darwinian conclusion; The strong must eliminate the weak. The Christian principle of caring for the weak was against nature and against the “logic” of power. The Christian idea of the universal love of humanity means in practice, the preference for the suffering and underprivileged: it has in fact lowered and weakened the strength, the necessity, the “lofty” duty to sacrifice men.

    Once the Christian conscience was eliminated, human beings would be forced to become brutal, ruthless, hard; impose their will on others; eliminate the untermenschen, and give full reign to the violence that Christian compassion had emasculated for so long”

  10. Rogue Trooper 13

    “Their is no logic that forces us to accept the “hermeneutics of suspicion” of the Marxists, neo-Freudians and neo-Darwinians, that we do not really mean what we say, that all human communication is either deception, or self-deception.

    When the vast literature on the rationalisations, what Claudia Koonz calls the Na%1 conscience, for what the Na%1s did is considered, what is apparent is not only the specific ideals of social Darwinism, but the overwhelming sense of the Authority of Science, whatever the science.

    Nietzsche also asked: Why morality at all? when life, nature and history are not moral; there is no morality written into nature; no is / ought inference that can be made.
    The Talmud says that had God not revealed the commandments (and the gospels) “we could have learned modesty from the cat, industry from the ant, marital fidelity from the dove, and good manners from the rooster”. Yet, equally, we could have learned savagery from the lion, pitilessness from the wolf, and venom from the viper; NActs.

    Civilisations have a way of identifying and pre-empting disastrous patterns of behaviour; taboo, divine command. This was lost in the modern age; Hayek called it “the fatal conceit”; that we know better than our ancestors, that we can calculate the consequences better, circumvent the prohibitions they observed, and achieve what they did not.

    • McFlock 13.1

      Darwin wasn’t about “strongest”, he was about “most fit” or “most suited”. There is a reason lions aren’t the dominant species on the planet, even though they are stronger than humans.
               
      Humans got to where we are today through societies, not as individual supermen. 

      • Rogue Trooper 13.1.1

        well, while I think of it, all this “alpha male” nonsense comes from unhelpful / anthropomorphic analogies; young lions grouping together to pull down their sire.
        quite unhelpful; sorta like “pooping” where you eat.

        DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE DEMOTE

        (apologies to moderators; just being graphic)

        :)

  11. karol 14

    Just when I thought I had some understanding of TPPA, along comes RCEP, just to set my head spinning again.  Will the NZ government be able to reconcile the 2, play one against the other, or will it just be swivelling betwen bowing to 2 masters?

    In early September 2012, Australia’s trade minister Craig Emerson and the trade ministers of China, Japan, India, Korea, New Zealand and the ten ASEAN countries met in Cambodia and “laid the foundations” for another: a Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership.

     

     
     

  12. captain hook 15

    this government is a lame duck government.
    they just out to cause as much trouble as they can now before they get the boot.
    they never really had anything anyway.

  13. A day of shame in Parliament today.  On the same day that farmers using their farms as carbon sinks are going to the wall the government’s gut the ETS bill came back to Parliament.

    Under this farmers will pay nothing for the damage they cause, and major polluters will pay just 5%.

    David Cunliffe gave them a tongue lashing.  He had a great theme, that today’s kids will have a harder life because we refused to do something about climate change now.

    He announced that Labour will move to restore agriculture’s entry to the ETS to 2015, restrict international credits to a maximum of 50% so that local credit producers can survive, the 2 for 1 deal will be phased out and there would be ongoing reviews of the price of carbon.

    And Kennedy Graham in that gentle yet direct way of his utterly rubbished the Government’s ineptitude as well as suggesting that Labour should have done more.

    Unfortunately reality, hard analysis and requests for this Government to take responsible steps do not appear to work with this Government. 

    • tinfoilhat 16.1

      It’s disgusting that the farmers and the government are getting away with this when the rest of the world is doing their bit.

    • tinfoilhat 16.2

      This government are a pack of traitors and along with the farmers are environmental vandals of the worst kind.

      Why can’t we do the right thing when the rest of the worlds farmers are all doing their bit under schemes like the ETS.

    • karol 16.3

      Climate disruption.  Climate chaos. Good terms.
       
      I’d  go for a party led by Cunliffe and the woman who was sitting behind him.

  14. ianmac 17

    Campbell Live tonight has opened up more amazingly awful exposure of the Christchurch School changes debacle. Really a must watch. In particular is the OIA question. A request to the Christchurch Council for in information on the (Ohuria?) school closure was answered, but included an e-mail from the MOE to tell the applicant that they had no information. That is, tell the CCC to lie. Requests have been declined for other schools yet the CEO wrote to say that every request would be actioned.
    Watch it when it comes up for replay. And be appalled.

    • Anne 17.1

      Appalling is almost not a strong enough word for the ChCh school debacle. It is clear the ministry is in total disarray. I’m not a teacher so I can’t really comment on the reasons why, but I suspect it’s a combination of blind ideology and gross incompetence. Perhaps someone can enlighten us as to the identity of the ministry officials involved. They deserve to be named and shamed.

      No-one from the ministry would front up to tell their side of the story. Did Hekia Parata issue instructions to them to keep their mouths shut or else? Probably. She’s a blatant bully like her colleagues Judith Collins and Paula Bennett.

      What a disgusting trio!

      .

      • ianmac 17.1.1

        What is so odd is that the Ministry would anticipate a determined response from the schools and the school community. You would think that they would have all the information and correct data ready and waiting. Why not? And in a very public exposure. (Good on Campbell Live) Perhaps the staffing cuts have left the MOE without the talent or numbers to deal with wholesale mayhem.

        I have never used this expression but will now. Gobstopped!!!

        • Dv 17.1.1.1

          It is really really bad that the school have to Use the OIA to get information about their schools so they can discuss their option.

          Really really odd.

  15. Rogue Trooper 18

    “To the extent that we medicalise human behaviour, to that extent we deny freedom and responsibility”

    “A brave new world along the lines of Aldous Huxley’s novel, in which people are kept permanently pacified by mind-altering drugs and virtual experiences”.

    I like rhubarb in moderation (not to be cooked in aluminium) :)

    • muzza 18.1

      But, but, but…..

      His brother ….

      Sir Julian Sorell Huxley FRS[1] (22 June 1887 – 14 February 1975) was an English evolutionary biologist, eugenicist and internationalist. He was a proponent of natural selection, and a leading figure in the mid-twentieth century evolutionary synthesis. He was Secretary of the Zoological Society of London (1935–1942), the first Director of UNESCO, and a founding member of the World Wildlife Fund.

      Internationalist (globalist), eugenics, and natural selection.

      Zero influence on you and your families life, past present or future these people!

  16. Rogue Trooper 19

    ooh, cuts to Auckland Councils fundings :)

    imo, We need more Judge John Deed

    freakin colonists in the DHB’s; more rhubarb top-down nonsense

    (years ago, I learnt of the “wars of religion” to come; how’s those clay feet holding up?)

    -there is something in the water, from someone that I used to know.
    :)

    • muzza 19.1

      As predicted, this will be the model going forward for Auckland Counil – Look at the projected debt increase over the next ten years, then think about how that might be serviced.

      http://www.interest.co.nz/bonds/58080/auckland-council-plans-increase-its-net-debt-percentage-total-revenue-limit-275-175

      The Auckland “Super City” Council wants to lift its net debt as a percentage of total revenue limit to 275% from 175%, to prevent a breach of the existing limit, with its debt forecast to almost treble to NZ$12.5 billion over the next decade.

      And the ratepayers will breath a sigh of relief when their rates bill does not go up quite as much as it might, but in any event they will be paying the bill for those who end up out of work.

      Debt will relieve Auckland of its assets too, its simply a question of time.

      Pre-dic-ta-ble

  17. Rogue Trooper 20

    “I tell you the truth,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his home town”.

    “If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you.
    If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town”.

    ( indulge in your science fiction while it lasts)

    It is done.

  18. captain hook 21

    I am very sorry that I wasted the chief moderators time.
    I will never do it again.
    It was smee’s fault.
    to much rum in the water.
    I have been so scorched and seared by the pol I tical process that I will withdrAW FROM THE ARENa and spend my time learning old folk songs on thye banjo whilst waiting for the revolution.
    can marxism explain why the sky is blue?
    please tell me.

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    GreensBy Mojo Mathers MP
    1 week ago

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