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This time, it’s different

Written By: - Date published: 10:12 am, January 16th, 2013 - 98 comments
Categories: jobs - Tags:

For the 5th year running, it’s that time of year, when the economists start promising the recovery is here. (remember ‘green shoots‘ in 2009?) Meanwhile, in the real world, there are twice as many jobless Kiwis as five years ago, and rising. If the pattern holds, later this year the economists will be lamenting the mysterious under-performance of the economy, as petrol hits a record price again.

total jobless

Btw, according to Treasury, it will now be 2017 before unemployment gets back down to even 5%. It was 4.2% when Key came to power.

98 comments on “This time, it’s different”

  1. Colonial Viper 1

    Don’t forget the accompanying calls for ordinary people to “tighten their belts” and to give new privileges to incentivise businesses and wealthy “job creators”.

  2. Sweetd 2

    Why are you using total number unemployed, as opposed to percentage unemployed? Comparing total number unemployed assumes that the total population has remained the same throughout the period.

    • Colonial Viper 2.1

      Our population has only grown marginally since 2008. Thanks goodness Australia has been acting as an unwanted NZ worker sink.

    • Zetetic 2.2

      that’s the total number jobless. Not unemployed. They don’t do a jobless percent because jobless are both in and out of the workforce and unemployment rate is a percentage of the workforce.

      Btw, our unemployment rate is at a 13 year high.

    • bad12 2.3

      Oh sure, lets all pretend that the unemployed are nothing but a %, everyone of them the lines on a graph, the % that makes up the numbers are our fellow Kiwi’s, their hopes and dreams either put on hold or completely trashed by the word ‘unemployed’,

      What are the scum that make up the Slippery lead National Government going to do about a local economy that has been stagnating for 5 years now,

      The answer,as usual, is to provide empty rhetoric by the bucket and punishment for the growing queue of those made unemployed through no fault of their own who have so far refused to decamp for Australia…

      • McFlock 2.3.1

        you missed the final bit of the answer: “… while Cabinet and their mates continue to get richer and richer and richer”.

    • @ Sweetd: The contrary argument is that as the population grows there is more economic activity (consumption, etc) and more work around. That doesn’t seem to be the case.

      But if it’s percentages you want; http://fmacskasy.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/new-zealand-unemployment-rate.png?w=595&h=341

  3. Sanctuary 3

    “…ANZ economist Mark Smith said the outlook implied by the QSBO was for a moderate recovery, with a housing-induced pick-up underpinning sentiment in Auckland and the services sector…”

    In other words, we are not seeing a real economic recovery driven by real prosperity, with rising wages and salaries and real productive output. We are simply seeing another middle class housing bubble forming to distort the economy.

    • Saarbo 3.1

      “We are simply seeing another middle class housing bubble forming to distort the economy.”

      Exactly (in Auckland and Canterbury), this is clearly one of the most hopeless governments New Zealand has had for a very long time. I hope economists have factored in how much money will be extracted out of the economy from people buying shares in our electricity companies later in the year.

      This low achieving government are going to have to provide some stimulus into the economy soon. Apparently they are going to announce something soon, so we will see.

      But this is why so many people are desperately wanting Labour to get things in order. Many who have voted National in the last 2 elections are looking for an alternative…come on Labour, show some Leadership, call an membership Leader election in Feb so that we can tidy things up.

      • Fortran 3.1.1

        Are you sure that Labour will have understandable policy to make the ex Nats go to Labour ?

  4. Afewknowthetruth 4

    It’s all Orwellian (war is peace, ignorance is strength, freedom is slavery etc.)

    Extraction of conventional oil peaked over 2005-2008) as is in severe decline throughout most of the world. The global economic system is being temporarily propped up by unconventional oil (tar sands, deep water, fracking etc.), but such source have low EROEI and are even more environmentally destructive than conventional oil. Demand destruction in Europe, Japan, the US etc. is also helping keep up the façade of normality in NZ.

    The fun will really start when the bond market goes kaput -which most commentators expect to happen later this year or in 2014.

    Of course, the severe climate change which the US and Australia (amongst others) are experiencing could bring the system down prematurely.

    In the meantime the politicians and the economists will ALL keep lying. After all, that’s what they are paid to do, isn’t it?

    • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 4.1

      expect to happen later this year or in 2014.

      Afewknowthetruth, you have been confidently predicting 2013 as the end of everything. This talk of 2014 is disconcerting. My underground bunker is already full of the canned goods, bottled water, and homemade dishwasher soap .

      • bad12 4.1.1

        That’s luxury, have you really got a dishwasher in the bunker…

      • Afewknowthetruth 4.1.2

        No, I have not. I have suggested that by 2020 most things people in western societies take for granted will be unavailable, and that by the end if 2015 the globalised economic system will be in turmoil.

        The fact is, nobody knows for certain because many of the factors have an exponential nature and most are interconnected.

        It’s all very simple really. Those who prepare start to make immediate gains -in finances, in health, in knowledge etc. Those who refuse to accept reality and refuse to make any preparations continue to make losses, and continue to be physically and mentally ill.. And sentence themselves to unnecessary hardship when it all does collapse.

        The saddest aspect is that the longer present economic arrangement persist the less chance the next generation has of surviving at all.

        Of course, if you live in Greece or Spain (or numerous other countries) it is effectively already over, i.e. collapse did occur in 2012.

        • Tiresias 4.1.2.1

          “I have suggested that by 2020 most things people in western societies take for granted will be unavailable, and that by the end if 2015 the globalised economic system will be in turmoil.”

          Read that on a Mayan Calendar, did you?

    • Lanthanide 4.2

      “The fun will really start when the bond market goes kaput -which most commentators expect to happen later this year or in 2014.”

      October 2013, amirite?

  5. King Kong 5

    Lets hope the economists are wrong and there is not a recovery. It would be an absolute disaster if things got better for New Zealanders before the next election.

    Selfish and spitefull little people.

    • Zetetic 5.1

      Are you refering to the 300000 jobless kiwis?

      • King Kong 5.1.1

        How could you possibly think that?

        If I was referring to them I would have used the phrase “lazy losers”.

        • bad12 5.1.1.1

          Brainless idiot, the only ‘lazy loser’ round here is you, hopefully not for much longer…

        • felixviper 5.1.1.2

          Ah yes, those 300,000 losers who had jobs until 4 years ago but then suddenly all became too lazy to work.

        • Dr Terry 5.1.1.3

          KK – and you have a “lazy brain” (if you have one at all). Naturally, you have never understood the meaning of concepts like “compassion”. Key should recruit you straight into his cabinet (this is not intended as a compliment, for you would be likely to take it as one).

        • Frank Macskasy 5.1.1.4

          @ King Kong: “If I was referring to them I would have used the phrase “lazy losers”.”

          And, that, Mr Kong, is why it’s so hard to take right wingers like you seriously. Disparaging the victims of the 2007/08 GFC whilst using the same GFC as an excuse why our economy is in the doldrums shows the real laziness here; intellectual laziness.

          • Copperhead 5.1.1.4.1

            +1 That’s a tops way of defining it, going on the list of things to throw at the neanderthal tories, ta

    • scotty 5.2

      “Lets hope the economists are wrong and there’s no recovery, It would be an absolute disaster if things got better for New Zealanders before the next election.”
      Selfish and spitefull little people.

      King kong feigns offence, at self generated comment, then consoles himself with the same ,imaginary strawman.

    • Afewknowthetruth 5.3

      You don’t need to ‘hope’ that economists are wrong: they always are. Indeed, the entire foundation of modern economics is wrong, which is why everything that matters will definitely get worse. (

      • Populuxe1 5.3.1

        Doom! DOOOOOM!!! The end is NIGH!!!!!

        • vto 5.3.1.1

          Well yes it probably is. History shows that there have been many many Ends already, followed by starts from pretty much scratch. Did you know that this is the case? Or are you one of these people who seem to think that mankind has been on a steady and constant increase since first walking on two legs?

      • Tiresias 5.3.2

        “Indeed, the entire foundation of modern economics is wrong, which is why everything that matters will definitely get worse.”

        Certainly Economics still falls short of being able to claim to be a science. But then, science is a search for truth by verification. What ‘Truth’ could Economics claim to be in search of? A perfect society, made and sustained by the application of economics?

        However Economics is still more worthy of consderation than is crystal-ball gazing in order to make definite statements about the future.

        • Draco T Bastard 5.3.2.1

          Prior to about a century or so back economics was part of philosophy. IMO, it should be back there because by stopping asking the question of what should be economists have lost the plot and this has resulted in economics becoming nothing more than a justification of capitalism.

        • KJT 5.3.2.2

          Not when it’s accuracy is like a stopped clock. Correct twice a day.

          Where is the better future the neo-liberals promised in the 80’s. After three decades of their prescription all the countries who tried it are not only worse off, they are even worse of by their own measurements, such as GDP

          If we start reading economists like Kean, Keynes and others who based their hypothesis on what was happening around them in the real world, and not the Austrians, who base it on the world as they like it to be, or Freidman (and the Chicago school. Responsible for more poverty than a whole club of dictators), who used economics to justify dictatorship, plutocracy, greed and antisocial meanness, we may have a chance..

          Crystal ball gazing has the advantage of being right, some of the time.

  6. Wayne (a different one) 6

    While members of the Labour Party are wringing their hands in despair at the number of people moving across the ditch to Australia (and of course this phenomina never occured under a Labour Govt), the leader Mr. Shearer had earnest talks with visting UK politician Mr. Haigue yesterday over the possibility of relaxing entry for young New Zealanders, so they can gain easier access to Britain for work.

    Am I missing something here?

    In terms of unemployment, we have something like 6% registered as unemployed in Christchurch, yet employers are bemoaning the fact they can’t get any interest from the local market, again am I missing something here as well?

    Or are these 6% or so the “poor” of our society, that through no fault of their own can’t be bothered getting off their arses or out of bed to get a job and, therefore require our taxpayer funded welfare to keep them in the lifestyle they have become accustomed?

    It’s about self motivation/pride – but of course Labour will always find an excuse for these people and, will happily fund there lifestyles from “craddle to grave.” So don’t bleet on this website about the unemployment numbers.

    • vto 6.1

      Yes you are most definitely missing something. Employers should rely on the free market model to which most subscribe and offer more money. Supply and demand and all that. Or is the free market supposed to be suspended when it comes to business and employers?

    • One Tāne Huna 6.2

      “Am I missing something here?”

      Why, yes you are. Several things actually. Facts, sense and understanding.

      Just one minor detail to demonstrate how full of shit you are: the historically low unemployment rate in 2007 after nine years of a broad left government.

      Why is it that wingnuts always fail the reality check?

      I’m picking low intelligence.

      • Draco T Bastard 6.2.1

        Why is it that wingnuts always fail the reality check?

        Because reality always contradicts what they believe to be true.

    • bad12 6.3

      Yes of course you are missing something ‘here’, Brains for starters, i mean the brains to at least prove your pathetic assertion and the brains to be able to grasp a small truism of market Labour in that those with the relevant skills get employed first in a ‘labour market’,

      Which they have been in the Christchurch rebuild leaving behind what that ‘labour market’ for whatever reason, be that the individual’s skill set, the ‘look’ of the indivdual, the market doesn’t want to employ,

      Perhaps tho you think that the 50 something woman recently made redundant from a University catering job should apply for positions with demolition and construction firms currently engaged in the rebuild, the fact that someone like i highlight above would not be hired by an employer to do such work doesn’t seem to register in what passes for your brain…

    • @ Wayne (a different one);

      I think you’re ignoring a major point top do with trans-tasman migration.

      This was one of John Key’s major election platforms in 2008. Since then, according to numbers, migration has INCREASED in the last four years. So much for Key’s famous election hoarding; http://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/johnnys-report-card-national-standards-assessment-ye-2012-migration/

      What you are doing is attempting to shift responsibility to a party (Labour) that hasn’t been in power for FOUR years.

      At what point, Wayne, does your party (National/ACT) start taking responsibility for it’s own policies and actions?

      At what point do you accept that National has to take responsibility and not constantly blame others? Especially when the numbers point to a WORSENING situation and not improvement?

      “It’s about self motivation/pride” you say… well, where is the improving economic situation from National’s policies to increasing “self motivation/pride”? Answer; there ain’t any. In fact, if anything, the increasing numbers show the clear opposite.

      And you can also ask the redundant workers from these companies where their “self motivation/pride” is;

      ANZ; 1,000 redundancies
      Yellow Pages; 125 redundancies
      Wire by Design, 55 redundancies
      Hakes Marine; 15 redundancies
      Telecom; 400 redundancies
      Brightwater Engineering; 40 redundancies
      Pernod Ricard New Zealand; 13 redundancies
      Depart of Corrections; 130 redundancies
      Summit Wool Spinners; 80 redundancies
      Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Trade; 80 redundancies
      Cavalier/Norman Ellison Carpets; 70 redundancies
      IRD; 51 redundancies
      Flotech; 70 redundancies
      NZ Police; 125 redundancies
      CRI Plant and Food; 25 redundancies
      Te Papa; 16 redundancies (?)
      PrimePort Timaru; 30 redundancies
      Kiwirail; 158 redundancies
      Fisher & Paykel; 29 redundancies
      Goulds Fine Foods; 60 redundancies
      Canterbury University; 150 redundancies (over three years)
      Solid Energy; 363 redundancies 460 redundancies
      Tiwai Pt aluminium smelter; 100 redundancies
      Axiam Metals; 44 redundancies
      Norske Skog; 120 redundancies
      Goodman Fielder; redundancy numbers t.b.a.
      Dunedin City Council/Delta: 30 redundancies
      Blue Sky Meats; 100 redundancies
      Kaipara Ltd/Stockton Alliance; 63 redundancies
      Wainuiomata New World; 44 redundancies
      Nuplex; 64 redundancies
      Newmont Waihi Gold; 20 redundancies
      Ministry of Justice; 70-200 redundancies
      Salisbury School in Nelson and McKenzie Residential School in Christchurch; 90 redundancies
      Rakon; 60 redundancies
      Dynamic Solutions; 40-60 redundancies
      Thorn Lighting; 8 redundancies
      Eastern Institute of Technology; 12 redundancies (?)
      UCOL; 30 – 50 redundancies
      Kiwirail Hillside Workshops; 90 redundancies
      SCA Hygiene Australasia; 140 redundancies
      Carter Holt Harvey; 70 redundancies

      “Or are these 6% or so the “poor” of our society, that through no fault of their own can’t be bothered getting off their arses or out of bed to get a job and, therefore require our taxpayer funded welfare to keep them in the lifestyle they have become accustomed? ”

      “The lifestyle they have become accustomed “?! Pray tell, do you even KNOW what a single unemployed person, over 25, is alloted on the unemployment benefit? I bet you haven’t a clue.

      And did you know that the numbers on unemployment and sole-parent benefits were DECLINING up until 2008? That those on the dole have DOUBLED since then?

      Perhaps the GFC (Global Financial Crisis) had something to do with that? You think?

      Or did all the redundancies above choose to become redundant so they could receive $204.96 a week (net) on the dole?

      • Georgecom 6.4.1

        Thats a nasty thing to demand Frank, asking the Nat/ACT government (and by association Wayne) to take responsibility for its actions.

        • Frank Macskasy 6.4.1.1

          I can appreciate that, Georgecom… Expecting the Right to abide by the same rules they lay down for the rest of us… Well, that’s just downright outrageous, I guess. :-)

          I’m waiting for the day they’ll start blaming high unemployment and depressed economy on sunspots.

    • Georgecom 6.5

      No Wayne, it’s not about self pride and motivation. It’s about a lack of jobs around for every person who wants to work.

      Why not do a favour for all of those who claim unemployment is about “motivation” and ‘laziness’

      put an exact figure on the number of unemployed who are out of work simply because they are lazy or not motivated.

      How many of the unemployed are out of work due to laziness or lack of motivation?

      State figure here _______

      Thanks

    • Murray Olsen 6.6

      You’re missing the difference between a year or so of OE and moving permanently to Australia. I’m not surprised, because when the same stuff was cut and pasted by a greasy slob pretending to be a blogger, his audience missed it too. I’m sure you’ll get points for trying though. Just like NAct ministers, you don’t actually have to succeed to be rewarded.

    • tracey 6.7

      yes, you are missing something, National identified it as an enormous problem in 2008 and devoted a lot of campaign words and policy to it, until elected. I dont agree with Labour also suggesting it’s a major problem other than in highlighting the duplicity of National and that it cant be trusted.

      You sir, manage to regurgitate misguided memes as though they are fact. You probably believe that benefit fraud is rampant and conveniently forget it was Labour in 2007 who completed a widespread investigation into welfare fraud and found it barely touches the sides of the fraud being committed by top businesses

  7. Pascal's bookie 7

    …the historically low unemployment rate in 2007 after nine years of a broad left government…just goes to show how spiteful these pricks are OTH.

    Making right wing policy look bad is the only thing that motivates them to get their lazy arses out of bed when the left is in power. Then they don’t vote, and quit their jobs to live the life of Riley when the poor bloody Nats come in. It’s a bloody plot mate. Alinsky stuff. The wankers.

  8. Wayne (a different one) 8

    OTH you are what I call a “tragic” – that is a “total retard and gullible in consequence”.

    Do you really for one minute believe the last Labour Govt had any positive input into creating that employment level? That from a Govt who openly admitted they had not one person in their caucus that had any business accumen. Come on man, get a grip and give yourself a good stiff uppercut.

    They governed this country through a worldwide economic boom and, that created thousands of new jobs, but these were not of their making – it was a consequence and to their good fortune.

    But lets look at what the last Labour Govt did in terms of unemployment. Well for a start they increased the size of the public sector by in excess of 100% – what that delivered apart from increased bureaucracy, I’m not sure.

    They shifted tens of thousands off the unemployed benefit onto the sickness benefit – so as to fudge the statistics.

    They propped up failing/uneconomic SOE’s and other businesses with the use of tax payer money, again to keep the unemployment stats looking good. Many of these business have since failed or gone into receivership – so that was an excellent strategy and a value for money exercise on their part.

    And it goes on!!!!

    • vto 8.1

      Well you know Mr Wayne, I have been positively bemused over the break as to how a country as wealthy as ours fails to adequately house and feed all of its people and fails to keep them all occupied. And especially bemused that such a country has people who cannot afford to see the doctor whenever they need to.

      It is an indictment on the structure of our society. It is so far out of whack it is frankly obscene. And people who support this current structure are imo complete and utter selfish greedy arseholes who I would rather took themselves elsewhere.

    • bad12 8.2

      Aha, and on the reverse of all that National has trashed what you bleat about above creating a huge pool of unemployed you accuse of being too lazy to get out of bed,

      Your density, the thickness of your argument grows ever wider, you cannot have it both ways, the economic Ism dictates that the ‘free market’ when left to it’s own devices will employ between 98 and 94% of the available workforce at any given time depending upon economic conditions,

      There’s no ifs or buts there you f**king retard it’s a fact of the market all over the world, the fact that you continue to whine about the individual and not the Ism just shows us all that you have not really got a f**king clue…

    • One Tāne Huna 8.3

      Wayne, I see you can’t stay on topic. You were abusing your fellow citizens who, according to your gutless gutter-level smear, “can’t be bothered getting off their arses or out of bed”.

      The 2007 employment level demonstrates that your gutter-level smear is bullshit.

      You make several other allegations while offering no supporting evidence, and I think you are either lying deliberately, from the gutter, or you are an ignorant dupe who parrots other people’s lies.

      Put up or shut up.

      • McFlock 8.3.1

        I love the way Labour always seems to have such luck at reducing unemployment.

        In politicians, as well as generalship, luck is important, too.

    • lprent 8.4

      That from a Govt who openly admitted they had not one person in their caucus that had any business accumen.

      Always nice to see someone being a complete fool and making idiotic unsubstantiated assertions.

      Why do you think that business acumen is useful for either the process of government or for that matter even spelling correctly (something that you clearly fail at)?

      Despite having worked in private industry during my entire working life in various roles ranging from factory manager to computer programmer, having helped to set up several successful businesses, and having a MBA and a family background in management – I wouldn’t make such a bold claim. Certainly the evidence doesn’t support you. Just looking at NZ politics, I’d have to say that business people elected to political roles usually make at best barely adequate to the most useless politicians when viewed from a perspective of 20-20 hindsight.

      Of course that could be other way around as well – only the most useless business people become politicians. Otherwise why would they want the role? Steven Joyce comes to mind.

      However your statement is somewhat incorrect anyway unless you have a very narrow view of what constitutes business acumen. Just offhand and without even bothering to think about it; David Cunliffe worked for the BCG as a business consultant and David Parker had a background both in law and as businessman running his own company. Both were in the last Labour government.

      But I guess you are too stupid to do the basic task of looking up wikipedia before you started stroking the object that you call a “brain” (more commonly known as a penis). The words “pathetic wanker” come to mind whilst reading your comments.

    • “But lets look at what the last Labour Govt did in terms of unemployment. Well for a start they increased the size of the public sector by in excess of 100% – ”

      That is rubbish.

      Can you provide back-up information for that nonsensical BS?

    • “Do you really for one minute believe the last Labour Govt had any positive input into creating that employment level? That from a Govt who openly admitted they had not one person in their caucus that had any business accumen.”

      Funny – the Nats pride themselves on having quite a few MPs with business “acumen”.

      And yet our economy is still stagnating; unemployment increasing; export sector impacted by a high dollar; migration to Australia is up; etc, etc.

      Heck, National’s only plans for economic growth seem predicated on more pokie machines and selling state assets. That’s the sum total of their plans for growth.

      Even the business community is getting pissed off at the Nat’s lack of serious economic growth,

      “Businesses have echoed Labour’s criticism that the Government lacks a blueprint to develop the economy.

      Party leaders and their finance spokesmen yesterday fronted up to lobby group Business NZ’s election conference to outline their economic vision.

      Business NZ also released the results of its election survey of more than 1300 small to large businesses. While almost all believed it was important for the government to have a co-ordinated plan of action that raised economic performance, little more than a third thought John Key’s Government had one.”

      Source: Business NZ sees no economic plan

      When even the business community is getting frustrated at National’s inept performance then you know we have a problem. (Unless you’re a sanctimonious, blame-gaming National supporter, in which case New Zealand is doing really hunky dory.)

      So much for National’s “business acumen”.

    • tracey 8.7

      Hat Tip to BLiP

      a TRIBUTE T THE INTEGRITY OF THE NON SOCIALIST GOVT.

      ” – I didn’t know about The Bretheren election tactics

      – I’m Jewish/Christian/Agnostic

      – “If they came to us now with that proposal [re trans-Tasman Therapeutic Goods regime], we will sign it.”

      – 1981

      – Tranzrail shares

      – Lord Ashcroft

      – National Ltd™ would have sent troops into Iraq

      – Standard & Poors credit downgrade

      – “I didn’t say I want wages to drop”

      – the real figure of inflation is 3.3 percent.

      – the tourism sector has not lost 7,000 jobs

      – “I won’t raise GST:

      – the purchase of farmland, by overseas buyers will be restricted to ten farms per purchase

      – Capping, not cutting the public service,

      – “North of $50 a week”

      – Privatisation won’t significantly help the economy

      – Wave goodbye to higher taxes, not your loved ones

      – “I never offered Brash a diplomatic job in London”

      – Kiwisaver

      – National Ltd™ is not going to radically reorganise the structure of the public sector

      – Tax cuts won’t require additional borrowing

      – “Our amendments to the ETS ensure we will continue to do our fair share internationally”

      – We are committed to honouring our Kyoto Protocol obligations

      – “we [NZ} have grown for eight of the last nine quarters”

      – National Ltd™ will tender out the government banking contract

      – “…we will be back in surplus by 2014-15…”

      – “…unemployment is starting to fall…”

      – “…we have created 45,000 jobs…”

      – “…we are likely to create 170,000 jobs in the next 4 years…”

      – I don’t know if I own a vineyard

      – The Isreali spy killed in the Christchurch quake had “only one” passport

      – The Police will not need to make savings by losing jobs

      – GCSB x 3 (that we know about)

      – “I voted to keep the drinking age at 20″

      – New Zealand is 100% Pure

      – “I’ve been prime minister for four years, and it’s really 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year”

      – Baseball in New Zealand is attracting more government support

      – the public demanded that we change the labour laws for The Hobbit

      – we have delivered 1000 extra doctors in the public service

      – “The Hobbit” created 3000 new jobs

      • BLiP 8.7.1

        .

        But wait . . . there’s more:

        – we have delivered 1000 extra doctors in the public service

        – I wasn’t working at Elders when the sham foreign exchange deals took place

        – I was starting School Certificate exams in 1978

  9. Wayne (a different one) 9

    Thanks guys, appreciate your learned comments.

    We will await the Socialist model that will inevitably follow a change of Govt – if it ever happens.

    A model that has served the economies and people of Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal and France so very well – bring it on I just can’t wait for the bloody shambles that will unfold.

    Then it will take a National Govt to once again pick up the pieces of a shattered economy and, apply band aids everywhere to fix it up!

    Remember the last Labour Govt left office with not a cent in reserves, after having unprecedent reserves, following their tenure through an economic world-wide boom period – blew the lot on socialist agendas that delivered nothing, i.e. Kiwi rail $600 odd million – when it was worth almost nothing, great.

    Some people are just so indoctrinated with the socialist mindset, it’s unbelievable.

    It’s never delivered a bloody successful economy yet.

    It seems to suit people who can’t think or fend for themselves – Nanny State knows best and will look after me.

    Sad guys – does the above description fit you well, because me thinks it does.

    • One Tāne Huna 9.1

      Polly wanna cracker?

      Edit: translation for poor Wayne’s benefit: “even your delusional bile is copied from someone else.”

    • bad12 9.2

      Some people like yourself are just brainless fuckwits unable to provide proof for their village idiot assertions who simply carry on the snivel about the fact that the Ism they support with mindless consistency has never embraced anything but the victim culture of blaming the unemployed for the Ism’s failure to provide anywhere near full employment in the economy…

    • fatty 9.3

      We will await the Socialist model that will inevitably follow a change of Govt – if it ever happens.
      Some people are just so indoctrinated with the socialist mindset, it’s unbelievable.

      Try wiki for a definition of socialism Wayne…your stupidity is amusing.

      Labour and National are both capitalists, they are third way capitalists who both believe in limited welfare, a neoliberal based form of biculturalism, a market dominated economy, and individualism. Neither Labour or National are close to being socialist, they are basically the same and only differ on tax/redistribution by a few percentage points.

      Try not to be a moron on TS Wayne…this ain’t kiwiblog, thinking is encouraged here

    • vto 9.4

      Wayne, here is how to make a point.

      1. State something.
      2. Explain why it is so, in your opinion.
      3. Back it up with evidence and examples.

      Otherwise it’s just boring and useless.

    • Foreign Waka 9.5

      I just can’t let this go unchallenged…… moneys went to the Kiwi Super fund contribution for a starter and did NZ big favors – still is. Otherwise this Government would not be able to borrow any money at all. Social Spending such as support for families etc was another “expense” that was on the books under labour.
      And by the way… all the collected money via tax is the public’s and not the governments. Lets be clear about that.
      The people agree to pay tax to further society as a whole and not corporate profits.And this is the main difference between Labour and National – one distributes taxes back into society and the other into the back pockets of the few (more or less). History tells us that we have been around this block a number of times. The saving grace was the availability of resources in the game of ups and down’s. However, this time its a bit different because all natural resources a finite and this becomes obvious with every day. So the hysterical hunt and invention of all sorts of make belief “business” has been introduced into the market to have the money train roling (carbon credits, money printing, IT bubble, housing bubble, fracking etc).
      We all have to change our thinking and this will be the most difficult part. Whether this can be achieved peacefully? I am rather pessimistic.

    • vto 9.6

      Hey Wayne, perhaps you could at least try and answer some of the points people are making to you… yes? Or no?

      Well, I have a question for you and I am sure you will have a quick and simple answer…. why do we have unemployment?

    • “It’s never delivered a bloody successful economy yet. ”

      You mean aside from the Scandinavian nations who enjoy a higher standard of loiving than us? With lower child-poverty diseases? A higher GDP?

      As opposed to the capiltalist model which, in 2007/08 brought the international economy to it’s knees, requiring billions in bailouts?

      Or was that all a figment of my imagination? Or occurred on a Parallel Universe Earth?

    • “Remember the last Labour Govt left office with not a cent in reserves, after having unprecedent reserves, following their tenure through an economic world-wide boom period – blew the lot on socialist agendas that delivered nothing, i.e. Kiwi rail $600 odd million – when it was worth almost nothing, great.”

      Where on Earth do you get your BS from?

      Are you totally unaware of the surpluses that Labour ran SURPLUSES in successive budgets, as well as paying down government debt?! Or do you simply choose to ignore reality in favour of your own skewed version of reality?

      Here, look at Treasury’s data on net government debt: http://www.treasury.govt.nz/budget/forecasts/befu2012/015.htm/befu12-35.gif

      Notice how it was paid down on Labour’s watch? Kinda demolishes your argument, doesn’t it?

      • Herodotus 9.8.1

        Frank your data link does not support your claim of “Notice how it was paid down on Labour’s watch? Kinda demolishes your argument, doesn’t it?”. Given your history And background I will take it that this is just a minor blemish. Have a nice day ;-)

        • Frank Macskasy 9.8.1.1

          ?!?!

          The link was to a Treasury graph showing net government debt being paid down, and then from 2008 rising.

          It’s a simple picture for those who require simple illustrations.

          I’m not sure what more I can offer. Something in crayon perhaps, Herodotus? ;-)

          • Herodotus 9.8.1.1.1

            If you want to commence some nastyness when you are called out fine but at least support your claims. Your link does NOT support the comment of paying down debt. A table or graph that displays value of debt being paid or gross debt reducing would.But this does not. Please put up before you turning to derogatory terms, unless you are unable and are using diversionary tactics. ;-)

    • xtasy 9.9

      Wayne –

      Greece, run by the right for a few terms, running up dept and deficits (while pampering their supporters and clientele), which the Socialists then had to face and start cleaning up again;
      Italy run by Berlusconi and his right wing support parties for many years, also keeping up debt by giving tax cuts for his supporters, leaving a mess behind that a coalition government without him, led by a pragmatist was left to try and fix again;
      Spain – having being governed by a conservative government, admittedly following a previous “social democratic” one, suffered a crisis largely because of the consequence of the GFC, and overexposure to real estate investments, leading to a sudden stop, bad debts, high leverage and solutions that required bailing out banks;
      Portugal – having been governed by more right of centre and left of centre governments in various terms, so you can hardly blame all their problems on “socialist” governments;
      France – as far as I can recollect, having been governed for a long time by Sarcozy and conservative governments, only just end of last year being taken over by Hollande and a more left leaning president and government now; a country suffering problems, but hardly a basked case.

      So where have you been, and what do you mean with a “socialist model” being to blame for the economic problems of the countries you listed.

      And Labour left the books in rather sound condition, which even Bill English initially accepted and stated.

      You are as “informed” and “expert” in economics as a donkey is as a dentist or surgeon.

      I am sorry, but what you present is anything but convincing, you have no clue of global economics as they are and have been, and need to dome some healthy reading of international media reports of value, before you can come and present us such rubbish here.

  10. AmaKiwi 10

    On Jan 14th Bill ran a thread entitled “Welcome to Burdigalian” concluding with “Anybody attempting to run an AGW (anti global warming) denialist arguments will be banned. Them’s the rules. You don’t have to like them. You’ve been warned.”

    I wish the same had been said for this thread. “Anybody attempting to run arguments that neo-liberalism is a roaring success and people are poor because they deserve to be poor will be banned. Them’s the rules. You don’t have to like them. You’ve been warned.”

    At the moment I do not find the words to express how strongly I feel about the economic and social fiasco we are spiraling into. These are gravely serious issues. At times I gain valuable information and perspectives from people on The Standard. But these halfwit right wing denialists with their unsubstantiated b.s. are a huge waste of my time. They divert the thread from questions of enormous import to me and the country’s future.

    • Tiresias 10.1

      I wish the same had been said for this thread. “Anybody attempting to run arguments that neo-liberalism is a roaring success and people are poor because they deserve to be poor will be banned. Them’s the rules. You don’t have to like them. You’ve been warned.”

      Can’t agree. If you aren’t prepared to listen to ARGUMENTS theat neo-liberalism &tc. you’re just another closed-minded bigot. However simple STATEMENTS that neo-liberalism &tc. are a waste of everyone’s time and should be moderated out, as should any simple STATEMENTS that are merely a personal opinion presented as indisputable fact.

      What should be deleted instantly and lead to banning is personal abuse and denegration of other writers and the gutter-mouthing of third-parties as it is unnecessary, shows up the writer to be small-minded and inarticulate and turns what could and should be an interesting, informative and even possibly educational exchange of views and ideas into a tedious, quickly-skipped wade through sewage, as is much of the above.

      Frankly, visiting The Standard sometimes these days is like having to visit a public lavatory to find that the last person to use the cubicle couldn’t be bothered to flush.

      • AmaKiwi 10.1.1

        @ Tiresias

        I understand your points and wholeheartedly agree about the personal abuse.

        I read a lot of history and economic history. For me, personally, it is crystal clear that we are spiraling downward. Other generations have been here. Some coped in humane ways. Others declined into despotism. How they coped and how we will cope is my critical issue.

        Maybe I am ahead of some people because I can’t be bothered listening to people who are in denial about the seriousness of our predicament and the magnitude of the challenges we face.

        • kiwicommie 10.1.1.1

          I just look at the real economic data i.e. when you don’t heavily ‘tighten belts’ and instead introduce stimilus and introduce new banking regulations you get economic recovery and surpluses. The UK, Greece, NZ and parts of the US that followed a neo liberal approach have high unemployment, low growth and massive deficits. Decent minded economists like Kroghman (sp) who have telling everyone neo liberalism will fail have been proven right, just like in the 1920s-1940s. Austerity never works in a global recession/deppression or really hard economic times, Keynesian economics is bringing neo liberalism to its knees.

          • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1.1

            However, energy and resource depletion is bringing Keynesian economics to its knees. The Keynesian formula for getting out of recession is to boost incomes in order to boost spending, in order to boost consumption (aggregate demand), in order to boost economic activity and therefore promote growth.

            But not only does this get harder to do financially as the price of resources and energy climbs, but speeding up the consumption of these things brings us to the depletion cliff faster.

          • Draco T Bastard 10.1.1.1.2

            No, it’s neo-liberalism that is bringing capitalism to its knees. Thing is, Keynesianism doesn’t work either. In fact, it’s just a way to prop up capitalism and that doesn’t work as we found out in the 1970s which is why we went back to liberalism – the ism that failed badly in the 19th century.

            The problem is capitalism and it is that that we have to address.

        • tracey 10.1.1.2

          As long as those in power deliberately avert their eyes from the countries which have achieved some “success” because it doesn’t fit their ideology are not doing their job. Successive government’s do it while telling us, and themselves, they are doing it for the best of the country.

          For a party that abhorred nanny state they sure do seem to be doing alot of parenting.

      • tracey 10.1.2

        I agree that the name-calling, overt and more “intellectually” couched (for want of another expression, is frustrating. However The Standard doesn’t have it on its own, and I struggle to understand why people who feel so strongly about things can’t get by without so resorting.

  11. xtasy 11

    Hey, bud, gotta job for ya.

    Me shoes need polishin and me arse wiped.

    Gotta solution, will pay ya.

    Good on ya. Key is our hero. He also loves clean arse wipes, just like me.

    Thank you, we are winners now.

    “Middle and uppedy NZ”

  12. Japan just passed a big stimilus package, to create 600k jobs, support businesses and build infrastructure.

    National still leaves everything ‘to the market’, despite the fact that there is rising unemployment, a growing trade deficit, a weak tourism sector; and a housing bubble that if it burst, would ruin National’s election hopes.

    PS: California has a 800m surplus, whereas conservative Texas has a 27b deficit. Clearly the left and not the neo liberal right know how to run an economy. National like other neo liberal parties will soon be in the dustbin of history. :p

    • Colonial Viper 12.1

      Japan just passed a big stimilus package, to create 600k jobs, support businesses and build infrastructure.

      Japan is maybe 3-4 years from going broke.

      Their Government currently spends 25% of their tax revenue on servicing the interest on Bank of Japan debt.

      • vto 12.1.1

        “Government currently spends 25% of their tax revenue on servicing the interest on Bank of Japan debt.”

        And therein lies the exact problem of the world’s woes.

        The usurious financial system. History will prove this to be so.

        • Draco T Bastard 12.1.1.1

          History has already proven it so – about 5000 years ago is first recorded instance of it – and yet we keep going back to the same system that failed then.

          • Colonial Viper 12.1.1.1.1

            Political leaders (and the people of whole nations) beholden to money lenders. President Andrew Jackson said as much in his farewell address.

            The paper system being founded on public confidence and having of itself no intrinsic value, it is liable to great and sudden fluctuations, thereby rendering property insecure and the wages of labor unsteady and uncertain. The corporations which create the paper money cannot be relied upon to keep the circulating medium uniform in amount.

            In times of prosperity, when confidence is high, they are tempted by the prospect of gain or by the influence of those who hope to profit by it to extend their issues of paper beyond the bounds of discretion and the reasonable demands of business; and when these issues have been pushed on from day to day, until public confidence is at length shaken, then a reaction takes place, and they immediately withdraw the credits they have given, suddenly curtail their issues, and produce an unexpected and ruinous contraction of the circulating medium, which is felt by the whole community.

            The banks by this means save themselves, and the mischievous consequences of their imprudence or cupidity are visited upon the public.

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