Uyghur allegation escalation?

Written By: - Date published: 6:25 pm, February 6th, 2021 - 67 comments
Categories: China, making shit up, Propaganda, radio, uk politics, us politics - Tags:

Radio New Zealand carried a long story this week from the BBC of rape allegations in Xinjiang based on accounts from two Uyghur women Tursunay Ziawudun and Gulzira Auelkhan. Independent analyst Bernhard at Moonofalabama asks the question “Why do these Uyghur witnesses stories constantly change?

Bernhard goes into some detail about the changing stories form Tursunay Ziawudun and another woman Sayragul Sautbay. Ziawudun is now living in the United States and her story has been handled by the US-based Uyghur Human Rights project.

The accounts of both women, Sayragul Sautbay and Tursunay Ziawudun, have ‘evolved’ after they have been handled through a chain of organizations set up to propagandize against China’s anti-terror and development program in Xinjiang.

Like the Swedish organization which handled Sautbay, the U.S. based Uyghur Human Rights Project which handles Ziawudun is part of the infamous World Uyghur Congress, which is is not a grassroots movement, but a US government-backed umbrella for several Washington-based outfits that also rely heavily on US funding and direction. Today, it is the main face and voice of a separatist operation dedicated to destabilizing the Xinjiang region of China and ultimately toppling the Chinese government.

Gulzira Auelkhan has also spoken previously to media. Her complaints in March 2019 were that she was forced to work for less than the minimum wage, with nothing of the lurid detail in this latest report that as Bernhard says has the appearance of a bad porn script.

Bernhard cites the example of the testimony of Nyirah al-Sabah before the first Iraqi war. He says the claims by the women of rape in the re-education camps in Xinjiang are as believable as the ones Nyirah al-Sabah made about babies allegedly thrown out of Kuwaiti incubators:

Her story was initially corroborated by Amnesty International, a British NGO, which published several independent reports about the killings and testimony from evacuees. Following the liberation of Kuwait, reporters were given access to the country. An ABC report found that “patients, including premature babies, did die, when many of Kuwait’s nurses and doctors … fled” but Iraqi troops “almost certainly had not stolen hospital incubators and left hundreds of Kuwaiti babies to die.” Amnesty International reacted by issuing a correction, with executive director John Healey subsequently accusing the Bush administration of “opportunistic manipulation of the international human rights movement”.

Nyirah al-Sabah was later shown to the the 15-year old daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador. It is now cited as a classic example of atrocity propaganda.

The BBC says in its story that the accounts of the women could not be verified. This did not stop them or Radio New Zealand from spreading the filth. There is a propaganda war against China driven out of the US and the UK.

We can expect more of this from the BBC but we should expect better from Radio New Zealand. They should not be republishing unverified sources.

67 comments on “Uyghur allegation escalation? ”

  • Comments are now closed

  1. barry 1
    6 February 2021 at 10:08 pm

    I am not going to say I don't believe the women, but there is always a problem with refugee testimony, in that they have every motivation to exaggerate. This was certainly true in the run up to the Iraq war, as the allegations against Saddam became more and more divorced from reality.

    As you say, they have likely been coached by the organisations that are looking after them. It is possible that their initial statements were not the complete story, as they may have had reasons for holding back. But (as with child abuse testimony) it is important to know how they have been interviewed and debriefed to stop contamination of the evidence.

    What is happening in Xinjiang is certainly of concern, and it does seem that there is an attempt to eradicate parts of the local culture. I have no doubt that people who resist brainwashing will be harshly treated.

    The evidence for this harsh treatment applying to everyone is very thin. The majority of people who have been in the camps have been released back into society and the sort of abuses described would be counterproductive.

  2. Incognito 2
    6 February 2021 at 10:40 pm

    This raises the question whether the NZ Government is a victim or a perpetrator of this propaganda war against China.

    The truth is usually somewhere in the middle and probably changes its position depending on the circumstances, i.e. a moveable and fuzzy/nebulous target, and depending on whom you’re talking to …

  3. RedLogix 3
    6 February 2021 at 11:01 pm

    There is only one way to resolve this – independent scrutiny on the ground that's trusted and authoritative. That the CCP have resolutely refused such access means they get no benefit of the doubt here.

    • Incognito 3.1
      6 February 2021 at 11:42 pm

      Well, maybe they’re hiding WMDs or killer bats that unleash global pandemics and therefore don’t deserve our natural justice.

      • RedLogix 3.1.1
        6 February 2021 at 11:53 pm

        The allegation is a serious one and deserves a serious independent investigation. Otherwise all we have to go on is uncorroborated claims and speculation – useless and harmful.

        Now if you were a detective dealing with such a case, and the accused totally refused to cooperate and even exercised their ability to prevent access to the crime scene – what conclusion would you draw?

        We have a name for it – obstruction of justice.

        • Incognito 3.1.1.1
          7 February 2021 at 12:13 am

          Sure, when did stop beating your wife or when did you last fuck your pig are also serious allegations. Many a witch-hunt has started with serious allegations. My point is, if is not clear to other readers, that these sorts of allegations can be used to create a no-win situation for the ‘accused’ and no matter what they do or say or don’t do or not say will get them off the hook by the ‘accuser’, which is precisely the intention. Simultaneously, we’re being forced to take ‘a position’ and ‘a stand’ under the motto ‘if you’re not with us, you’re against us’. Regardless of what has happened or is happening with the Uyghurs, there are signs of populist propaganda and wedge politics going on and it is not the first time. So, who benefits and thus has a motive?

          • RedLogix 3.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2021 at 12:21 am

            I cannot but help note that if it was the USA (or any other western nation) being accused of these or similar crimes – there would rightly be a loud mob of people demanding we get to the truth of the matter.

            Yet somehow the CCP is getting the benefit of the doubt here I really cannot see it deserves.

            • Incognito 3.1.1.1.1.1
              7 February 2021 at 12:34 am

              Hypothetical they-do-it-too or what-if is not helping us move forward. Before you move in the ‘independent’ inspectors/investigators to ‘gather evidence’ and before you charge somebody of a crime, you’d need to first examine the facts. Besides apparently ever-changing victim/witness accounts of how many people, what do we have that we can look at? Please note that by “we”, I mean the NZ Government; there’s another “we”, which is people in the street, like you and me, who wouldn’t be able to recognise or identify an Uyghur if we bumped into one in Queen Street.

          • The Al1en 3.1.1.1.2
            7 February 2021 at 12:22 am

            Regardless of what has happened or is happening with the Uyghurs, there are signs of populist propaganda and wedge politics going on

            Yeah, that's terrible, won't someone think of the ruling elite's children.

            • Incognito 3.1.1.1.2.1
              7 February 2021 at 12:35 am

              Sorry, our borders are closed to international students.

              • The Al1en …
                7 February 2021 at 12:39 am

                I know a place if they're in need of some ‘reeducation', regardless of what has happened or is happening with the Uyghurs

                • Incognito …
                  7 February 2021 at 12:42 am

                  I’m sure they love to hear from you so why don’t provide them with your full name and contact details here so that they can contact you? Lprent doesn’t like e-mail addresses in comments because it attracts bots but I’m sure we can make an exception in this case.

                  • The Al1en …
                    7 February 2021 at 12:44 am

                    Not me or my details, though I’m sure they already have them – I'm boycotting Chinese goods and services

                    • Incognito …
                      7 February 2021 at 12:52 am

                      I see, you’re a minimalist.

                      Do you want to enlighten us about what’s really happening with the Uyghurs or just spread innuendo?

                    • The Al1en …
                      7 February 2021 at 1:05 am

                      If you're posting stuff like

                      Regardless of what has happened or is happening with the Uyghurs

                      I doubt I'd really be able to enlighten you on anything.

                      Tell you the truth, I'm a little surprised you'd take such a position on such grievous matters such as mass incarceration, reeducation, abuse, forced sterilisation, stripping of religious freedom etc.

                      You may call it propaganda, as is your wont, but if even only half of the recent and historic claims are true it's a crime against humanity blunt appeasement won't provide cover for.

                    • Incognito []
                      7 February 2021 at 1:20 am

                      You can interpret that in whatever way you like and as with pig fucker arguments, you have assumed that I have taken “such a position”. However, the intended meaning was to separate it, whatever it is, from any propaganda and dirty politics that might be taking place at the same time. In other words, just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean that they’re not after you, if you (still) follow me. Propaganda is propaganda, facts are facts, and these are not mutually exclusive contrary to popular opinion and ‘common sense’. Do you have any facts to share? If not to enlighten me, which you’ve already decided is an exercise in futility, but to fill in other readers.

                    • The Al1en …
                      7 February 2021 at 1:24 am

                      I think I'll just leave it with a much lower opinion of you than I had before.

                      Sorry to bother you with my populist propaganda and wedge politic humanity.

                      [RL: I’m going to step in here and politely point out that you were doing OK until the personal denigration. Chill.]

                    • Incognito []
                      7 February 2021 at 1:35 am

                      It was never about your humanity or me. Another thread that didn’t go anywhere.

                      Our Government has already made up its mind, after seeing the same BBC report, or has it? Good on them, I say, our collective humanity is at stake here.

                      https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2021/02/jacinda-ardern-s-grave-concern-after-reports-of-systemic-rape-in-china-s-uighur-camps.html

                      Edit: I posted the comment before I saw RL’s moderation note.

        • francesca 3.1.1.2
          7 February 2021 at 6:44 am

          Which neutral organisation would you trust ?

          • RedLogix 3.1.1.2.1
            7 February 2021 at 9:39 am

            I'm not sufficiently familiar with the possible candidates to make a list, but ideally it would be UN based. Perhaps headed up by a tribunal including already respected individuals like Nils Melzer.

            And much would depend on the degree of independent access giving them, not just for a stage managed visit, but over time and without constraint. Full transparency is essential.

            In the modern world it's impossible to make everyone happy, but it must be possible to establish an entity with acceptable credentials and credibility.

    • Brigid 3.2
      7 February 2021 at 10:53 am

      "the CCP have resolutely refused such access"

      Who has been refused access, on what grounds, by whose account?

      • Adrian Thornton 3.2.1
        7 February 2021 at 1:04 pm

        Good questions, it will be interesting to see those answered in full by our resident red scare proponents.

    • Mike Smith 3.3
      7 February 2021 at 11:26 am

      RedLogix is right about one thing – the best way to resolve this issue is for a respected and independent authority to visit Xinjiang and see for themselves. He is not right to say that the Chinese government has resolutely refused access. The Chinese government has invited the United Nations Human Rights Commissioner Michelle Bachelet to visit and as of last September her office is reported to be in discussions with them. The Chinese will have concerns over presumptions of guilt, similar to those they faced regarding the origins of the Covid virus in Wuhan. No doubt the issues will be resolved, but it may take time.

      • RedLogix 3.3.1
        7 February 2021 at 5:02 pm

        The CCP is the accused party here – they should not get to vet or 'negotiate' with the investigation. Otherwise it's credibility is crippled from the outset.

        Pragmatically the least we can demand is complete transparency in any such discussions.

  4. Sanctuary 4
    7 February 2021 at 9:58 am

    It seems that the standard is well poised to provide the CCP with any number of stooges willing to engage in obfuscatory whataboutism. Presumably they'll be well rewarded with whatever constitutes dig biscuits for fools these days.

    • Incognito 4.1
      7 February 2021 at 10:34 pm

      You’ve been on this site since its inception, as far as I can tell, and you know how it works and who owns the TS Trust. You also know that there are no “rewards” whatsoever for writing posts or comments here. Ask your TS mates – you know whom I mean. I find your comment mischievous and slanderous and I sincerely hope you won’t spread this kind of disinformation again about the site and/or its Authors.

  5. df 5
    7 February 2021 at 11:05 am

    Wow. This post seems to be very close to attempting to broadly discredit news of oppression of Uyghur by CCP. What's the motivation here? Holding media to account on their accuracy?

    • Incognito 5.1
      7 February 2021 at 9:14 pm

      It seems you have a problem with reading comprehension. This is the first sentence of the OP, with my emphasis to make it clearer for you to understand what the OP is about:

      Radio New Zealand carried a long story this week from the BBC of rape allegations in Xinjiang based on accounts from two Uyghur women Tursunay Ziawudun and Gulzira Auelkhan.

      Capisce?

      • df 5.1.1
        8 February 2021 at 9:06 am

        That doesn't answer my question at all. But I wasn't asking you, was I? Step back buddy.

        • Incognito 5.1.1.1
          8 February 2021 at 11:51 am

          laugh

          Firstly, I’m not (your) “buddy” and maybe you want to try keeping your pretentious masculinity under control when you comment here, as it comes with a whiff of bad BO.

          Secondly, of course it didn’t answer your question at all. Your question was a loaded one based on a false premise. If I were to posit that you have almost stopped beating your wife and then asked the question as to what the motivation for that is, I would do what you did here.

          Thirdly, Mike might want to comment, but here on TS anybody can chime in at any time, as long as they don’t derail the thread. If you want a one-on-one conversation, you’re in the wrong place here; maybe start your own blog, yes?

          Capisce?

          • df 5.1.1.1.1
            8 February 2021 at 1:32 pm

            Nope, not at all. Would be good to hear Mike's view but thanks for setting me straight on the rules around here. And to you…be careful on gender assumptions, it makes one look a little…unprogressive maybe. No doubt moderators will be watching you if you carry that sort of thing on.

            • Incognito 5.1.1.1.1.1
              8 February 2021 at 2:32 pm

              The last thing I want is to be perceived here as “unprogressive” and I apologise for my characterisation of your comment. I look forward to more constructive contributions from you here in future.

              Ciao.

              • df …
                8 February 2021 at 5:31 pm

                Here is a constructive contribution which will be right up your alley, and Mike Smith's, too. Good 'ol CCP…such a great bunch to hitch your wagon to. Not doubt you will be commenting on the glorious work CCP is doing to keep their people safe BBC News – Cheng Lei: Australian journalist faces China spying charges
                https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-55975542

                • Incognito …
                  8 February 2021 at 5:49 pm

                  I’m sorry to have to tell you that that is not a constructive contribution to the OP or to this thread. It is just an irrelevant link and a bunch of snide remarks with incorrect assumptions. You should have taken it to OM, IMO, because it comes across as flamebait.

                  If you cannot or don’t want to do better, maybe you should not comment under this Post, yes? It is more than a suggestion but I doubt you can or will read between the lines. However, I have a solution for that, which may cause serious and long-term adverse advents with you …

  6. Adrian Thornton 6
    7 February 2021 at 11:28 am

    " We can expect more of this from the BBC but we should expect better from Radio New Zealand. They should not be republishing unverified sources."…sorry pal but that horse as bolted long ago, RNZ has been spewing out pretty much verbatim US and UK propaganda for a long long time…just look at the latest Red scare propaganda involving the Liberal anti Putin pin up boy Navanly…turns out that Navalny is an extremist racist nationalist…last week’s interview with Kim Hill ‘Alexei Navalny vs Vladimir Putin’ with Anton Troianovski brushes over this in but a flash, now I ask you if Navalny had been ousted with these most outrageous racist attacks against Jews for instance or African Americans do you think Kim Hill would still just brush over that racism? I think not..Corbyn proved that…but as they were just some Eastern Europeans, they let it slide past so as to not get in the way of their anti-Putin agenda…not to mention they never covered Assange’s outrageous court case once, until it was over, however when the allegations of rape were swirling around they couldn’t get enough of that… the days of getting any balance or context from RNZ like this, are past…. RNZ National is now a radio station for older teenagers (afternoon shows) and lazy adults who can’t be bothered thinking for themselves (excepting the evening shows, which can be worthwhile for sure)….luckily Concert programme is still around.

    • francesca 6.1
      7 February 2021 at 11:50 am

      And Navalny is still ending out messages to his followers from his cell!!

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/world/europe/300222590/navalny-urges-russians-to-overcome-their-fear-in-a-note-he-sent-from-jail

      We hear nothing from Assange

      • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1
        7 February 2021 at 1:01 pm

        Yes, so I see, it seems that the media has a large part of the population believing up is down and left is right on certain issues….even by people who you would assume could/would see through such obvious propaganda and/or fake news…but no, for reasons unknown they appear to gobble up the bullshit just as readily as the casual observer of current affairs…very sad and quite disturbing.

        • francesca 6.1.1.1
          7 February 2021 at 3:06 pm

          Jim Mora once interviewed Dr Tim Anderson from Sydney University on Syria ..by mistake I can't help feeling

          Tim wrote "The Dirty War on Syria"having visited several times on his own fact finding missions

          Jim was flabbergasted , being such a creature of orthodox beliefs, he was quite unprepared ,as his only exposure to Syria was through approved media

          • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.1.1
            7 February 2021 at 4:07 pm

            Damn, missed that one…good 'ol Mora, he really is the quintessential middle NZ broadcaster of our time, no bucking the system from that guy…no siree.

              • Adrian Thornton …
                7 February 2021 at 11:02 pm

                Thanks, that right there is something quite rare and unusual, an actual counter narrative… I cannot remember the last time I heard one on RNZ, I frequently emailed RNZ asking for such a thing over the years, but have pretty much given up bothering now.

                • Incognito …
                  7 February 2021 at 11:19 pm

                  Maybe it is the exception that proves the rule wink

                  I don’t like to write off people or institutions too soon as I’ve been shown to be wrong many times when I did that. I find it better to reserve judgment, which is easier said than done.

                  • Adrian Thornton …
                    7 February 2021 at 11:50 pm

                    That sounds good in theory, but I am just too impulsive by nature I’m afraid. Though that being said I have been listening to RNZ for 40+ years, and used to really love it, so it has actually been a very painful process for me personally, watching it’s slow but always discernible decent into mediocrity (and worse) and especially listening to Kim Hill who was one of my media hero’s, slowly become a one dimensional talking head (on foreign politics) and who will never have on a serious counter narrative to the party line on her show these days 9for a long time)…I guess John Pilger saw through her back then…but I hung on for many more years trying to give them and her the benefit of the doubt..but that time of indecision has now well and truly now passed, well for me anyway.…sadly (and I really mean that)

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rYQ2o4V3BM

                    • Incognito …
                      8 February 2021 at 12:22 am

                      I cannot comment on RNZ or Kim Hill. However, as a general observation, we change, people change. Long-term friendships dissipate, long-term marriages dissolve. Professionally too, it is easier to get on top of your game than to stay there, year in, year out. It can be painful to see/experience some changes but it is even more painful to refuse to accept and let go. Sometimes, I feel nostalgic and long for things in the past and if I give in, I can become melancholic. Much better to treasure the good memories of (the) good times and enjoy the good things in the present, I reckon. All good things come to an end, they say, but similarly, all good things have a beginning too. Think about it.

        • df 6.1.1.2
          7 February 2021 at 8:41 pm

          You'll be pleased with Navalny's sentence though. See, the great Russian judiciary has set things straight. How conniving the powers in the west are, how gullible are their people. Fools!

          • Adrian Thornton 6.1.1.2.1
            7 February 2021 at 9:04 pm

            I personally have no real deep interest in Russian politics, and less so about the fate of the racist hate monger Navalny; however I do have an interest in the way Russia and specifically Putin has been relentlessly demonized by western MSM over the past three years, as usual there are more parts to the puzzle than first meets the eye..maybe watch this to get a little more context on the subject, I know I learnt a thing or two.

            • Stuart Munro 6.1.1.2.1.1
              7 February 2021 at 9:42 pm

              Putin was always a monster, and the media fell down on the job of reporting his adventurism in Chechnya and Ingushetia. The "demonization" you claim falls well short of the man.

              • Adrian Thornton …
                7 February 2021 at 10:48 pm

                As I have said to you on more than one occasion, I have no love of Putin, or anything he represents, especially his actions in Chechnya, however as I have also tried explaining to you on a few other occasions as well, that is not what I am talking about. If you are fine with your legitimate problems with Putin being co-opted for the political and corporate foreign policy agendas of the USA and her allies then fine, personally I choose my friends more carefully, preferably ones with a similar moral and ethical world out look that I have.

                • Stuart Munro …
                  7 February 2021 at 11:34 pm

                  It takes more than a simple assertion to establish that Putin is indeed being coopted for such purposes, or the Uighur women for that matter.

                  People coerced into abusive situations like those the women describe are likely to suffer mental health problems on a par with PTSD, so that some variation in their stories or inconsistencies are not as damning as they would be from a reporter that merely observed such activity.

  7. Mike Smith 7
    7 February 2021 at 1:36 pm

    Wang Wemin, China's foreign ministry spokesman, dealt with the BBC story in his regular interview on February 3rd and 4th. In the latter he provides some more information on the people whose names come up frequently in the anti-China stories.

    On a related issue in the state-led information wars, the UK media regulator OFCOM has now banned CGTN. the Chinese national overseas news agency. The Independent reports OFCOM saying:

    “We are unable to approve the application to transfer the licence to China Global Television Network Corporation because it is ultimately controlled by the Chinese Communist Party, which is not permitted under UK broadcasting law.”

    “We’ve provided CGTN with numerous opportunities to come into compliance, but it has not done so. We now consider it appropriate to withdraw the licence for CGTN to broadcast in the UK.”

    Ofcom revoked the licence of Press TV, the Iranian state broadcaster’s English-language outlet, in 2012, for breaches of the Communications Act.

    In 2019, Ofcom fined the Russian broadcaster RT £200,000 over “serious and repeated failures” to report with due impartiality on issues including the Novichok poisonings and the Syrian conflict.

    Seems to ba a pattern. As for Novichok, the deadliest poison ever that only Putin can authorise but never kills anyone to whom it has supposedly been applied, the one thing you can say about it with absolute truth is that it is proving indestructible in the western media.

    • francesca 7.1
      7 February 2021 at 3:13 pm

      Well you have to admit, novichok is hugely effective as a propaganda device

      Like the hateful Chinese guards who bite as well as rape, poison sets the perpetrator beyond the human pale, worthy of horrified disgust .Why the wretches are evil I tell you and should properly be killed

      Both world wars had similar grotesque propaganda , to keep the populace in a state of hatred and fearfulness of the enemy.

    • Tiger Mountain 7.2
      7 February 2021 at 4:31 pm

      There appears to be a flaw in the Navalny and other stories–this incredibly dangerous “deadly nerve agent” does not seem to bump anyone off, quickly at least–perhaps non fatal doses are administered to ensure maximum suffering for the recipient? or these outlaw compounds are unreliable to handle? or…we could be being had.

      Why should certain international media companies and services, unreliable and biased as hell on “Western” and local NZ matters, necessarily be believed on Russia and China? it smells of some sort of offical line/pundit confirmation bias.

      Mr Navalny is a Yale educated Finance capitalist, make no mistake. Maybe not an authoritarian, but no friend of the working class in reality. The positive thing in this is Russian people in action trying to enforce the democratic rights of speech and assembly.

    • Adrian Thornton 7.3
      7 February 2021 at 9:05 pm

      "the one thing you can say about it with absolute truth is that it is proving indestructible in the western media." …that is a fact alright.

  8. Andrew Miller 8
    7 February 2021 at 1:41 pm

    I’m assuming that the grotesque moral relativism underpinned the nauseating CCP apologia that The Standard trots out with monotonous regularity is driven by an anti imperialism of fools, but it’s stuff like this that makes so many people who’s politics lean left want nothing to do with ‘the left’.
    I’m also assuming this post won’t stay up, but at least who moderates these post will at least what utter contempt you deserve to be held in.

    • RedLogix 8.1
      7 February 2021 at 5:22 pm

      Andrew. The Standard is a collective of authors – it's a mistake to think we all agree on all issues. Quite the contrary.

    • Adrian Thornton 8.2
      7 February 2021 at 9:14 pm

      Andrew, I think many people whose ‘politics lean left’ in the past are now firmly planted in the centre…and I am not sure if you are aware of this but the Left and the Centre are two completely different political ideologies.

    • Incognito 8.3
      7 February 2021 at 10:05 pm

      You are the second third one under this Post making an ignorant comment about this site and how it operates. Only a month ago, another ignorant fool made a similar comment and received an educational Moderation note from the SYSOP, Author, Commenter, and Moderator as well as Trustee of The Standard Trust. I highly recommend it to you:

      https://thestandard.org.nz/colin-james-looking-forward/#comment-1772974

      I noticed that you were already whinging & whining about this blog in 2012 in a highly similar way.

  9. observer 9
    7 February 2021 at 6:41 pm

    This post is why I no longer comment on the Standard. No loss, perhaps, but I know I'm not the only one.

    My politics are certainly on the Left, and I'm happy to see debate here between positions within the broad NZ left (Greens and Labour on tax and housing and inequality, for example). I don't expect to agree all the time, and a very wide range of opinion is natural, and healthy.

    But deflecting for a dictatorship is not "left" or "socialist" or "progressive" or anything, except shameful. When people are oppressed – and brutally – it's morally bankrupt to shill for the oppressors.

    It's not good enough to say "authors have different opinions". Fascists have opinions. Racists have opinions. Trump fans have opinions. They don't get to publish on the Standard. And nor should apologists for torture. Ever.

    I can only hope that none of you or your loved ones ever suffer the atrocities that Mike Smith gladly defends. Nobody deserves that. Over and out.

    • Incognito 9.1
      7 February 2021 at 10:15 pm

      FWIW, I always appreciated your comments and I do miss them and regard it as a loss.

      I can only hope that none of you or your loved ones ever suffer the atrocities that Mike Smith gladly defends.

      I’m surprised that you have misconstrued Mike’s Post. Frankly, I find it absurd to think that the OP was defending or being an apologist for the atrocities mentioned in the OP. This wasn’t a philosophical treatise how incest between two consenting adults is ok.

    • In Vino 9.2
      7 February 2021 at 10:20 pm

      Well, we are lied to so often, aren't we? Proven lies that the British fed to their public about the Germans' behaviour in WW1 resulted in the British public being wary of the truth that was later being told to them about the Nazis.

      Same thing here. I have heard so many proven lies about, say, Vietnam delivered to us as truth, only to find out later it was bullshit. Are you sure you know whom to believe, Observer?

  10. Stuart Munro 10
    7 February 2021 at 10:04 pm

    One might well humour the possibility that the victims the BBC reported were self-serving persons exploiting US funding, much as Chalabi is alleged to have been in relation to Iraq, were it not for an extended body of reports suggesting that China was essentially deculturizing Uighurs.

    This site seems to have plenty to report, though their perspective seems primarily religious.

    And this BBC report is from mid 2019.

    These kinds of reports did not characterize Hu's premiership – they seem to correlate with Xi. Taken together with the womens' stories it suggests that the Uighur program is no garden of sweets, and not something any progessive could support – only lickspittle lackeys of oppressive regimes.

  11. Subliminal 11
    8 February 2021 at 10:11 am

    At its heart, the western monetary system has become one of monopoly rent extraction. Debts from private banks are always against some already existing asset or infrastructure. This is the case both for the private sector and for governments. When a debtor defaults, the asset is taken over. In the case of governments, infrastructure and services are sold. The whole system is based on neoliberal austerity. Once the commons has been sold, it is rented back at ever increasing cost as a monopoly. The brutality of this system, which is glossed over by economic language, is extreme. It involves endless wars against any independence. It involves starvation sieges against the most vulnerable. It means a zero sum game whereby "winning" means someone else must "lose".

    China offers another possibility. Of course it is flawed and still open to corruption. But its an alternative and strong enough and definitely successful enough to be a "threat" to the US model. In a zero sum game there is only one winner. Everybody else are losers. Trunp embodies the zero sum mentality perfectly. The Chinese system involves public banking. Credit is used to build infrastructure and have the state run it. This eliminates monopoly rentiers and makes the cost of doing business much less. It frees money to raise the standard of living and education and health. It is inclusive and involves a win-win mentality. Internationally China can use its surpluses to help create infrastructure and other services for other countries. It does not pauper a country when they default on debt. How could they? The US and West wouldn't allow it. China, Russia and Iran are attempting to initiate a system of international payments that would not create one country dominant above another. This is at the heart of win-win.

    There are huge vested interests in the West with billions of money and some serious military hardware that do not want this to happen and have no qualms about the means that they use to prevent it. So its important to make sure that we arent just rushing headlong into another manufactured war against another manufactured enemy.

    Michael Hudson

  12. Obtrectator 12
    8 February 2021 at 11:55 am

    "As for Novichok, the deadliest poison ever that only Putin can authorise but never kills anyone to whom it has supposedly been applied … "

    Tell that to the family and friends of the late Dawn Sturgess of Salisbury, UK.

  13. ngatimozart 13
    8 February 2021 at 12:39 pm

    The allegations against the CCP / PRC regarding the Uighur people in Xianjang are fairly correct and have been substantiated by CCP documentation that has been leaked. The CCP has a policy of forced assimilation of minorities into Han Chinese society with the objective of creating a homogeneous society subservient to the Party. In Xianjang it's doing this by imprisoning the Uighur population in concentration camps and stripping them of their cultural and religious identity. The intention is to erase the Uighur society, culture, ethnicity, and Islam from the PRC.

    Whilst this may not agree with your political world view, it is part of a process that has been ongoing since the PRC invasion of Tibet in the 1950s. There they have slowly but surely suppressed the Tibetan culture and identity. Now they are starting in Inner Mongolia, with all lessons in school now to be taught in Mandarin only. Until late last year most lessons were taught in Mongolian.

    This is not the actions of a democratic benevolent government, but the actions of an authoritarian, totalitarian state. To be true mainland China has never experienced democracy in its history, but they deserve far better than this latest incarnation of an imperial dynasty.

    Finally here in in Aotearoa NZ we all have the right and freedom to disagree with the government and what it says or does. We can say so publicly as often and as loudly as we like. We can question our leaders parentage, species, intellectual capability etc., without fear. However if we do that in the PRC, we would find ourselves arrested and off to a re-education camp for a long period of time. So think about that too.

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