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The Standard

What the hell is the sub-prime crisis?

Written By: - Date published: 10:46 am, March 19th, 2008 - 48 comments
Categories: economy, housing, International - Tags: , ,

The sub-prime crisis is at the heart of the world’s current economic problems. It all boils down to financiers playing fast and loose with the rules of how money works, and the US government not keeping an eye on them.

Essentially, they created a whole new class of interest-bearing pieces of paper that were supposedly backed up by the payments from sub-prime mortgages. These are mortgages banks had lent to people who couldn’t really afford their mortgages because the banks had stacks of savings from China and the Middle East they needed to lend to make profit. Inevitably, it all went to custard. Now, US banks are collapsing, they’re going into recession, and we’ll probably avoid recession but it will be a close thing.

Finance, with derivatives and options all that, is complicated but these new pieces of paper (CDOs) are so complicated even most financiers didn’t understand them. Fortunately, we have a cartoon to explain (best viewed on full screen):

For those more audibly inclined, here is a very good

Audio clip: Adobe Flash Player (version 9 or above) is required to play this audio clip. Download the latest version here. You also need to have JavaScript enabled in your browser.

[6MB mp3] with economist and writer Max Fraad Wolff, former investment banker and journalist Nomi Prins and mortgage analyst and activist Josh Zinner interviewed by economics commentator Doug Henwood on the subject. They put the blame where it belongs – international finance speculators.

I wonder what former international finance speculator, John Key, would have to say about the root cause of the crisis that is threatening not just the US economy but ours?

48 comments on “What the hell is the sub-prime crisis?”

  1. IrishBill 1

    Like John says, let the market decide. And this time the market decided to screw us. What a surprise.

  2. Ruth 4

    The panic here is overblown. The offshore opinion is rather different, and you can’t get any economists here who are not either employed by banks, selling their book, or have an axe to grind.

    We have got 100bn a day going through NZ – it is viewed as one of the best places in the world to invest.

    Yes there will be some blowback, but don’t be dragged into the pessimism – I have yet to figure out why people find bad news appealing. Many would like to see this country go down the toilet it seems – so maybe they can blame Clark, Cullen, RBNZ, capitalism, Muslims – whateva.

  3. John Key may have to say a whole lot about the subprime crisis, but he won’t because it would implicate him in the whole sordid affair.

    John Key’s career reads like a who is who of the subprime perpetrators.
    When he started with the Bankers trust he became the head of the forex department after a while but I think that he worked in the bonds and derivatives bussiness as well.
    He was the account manger for a guy called Andrew Krieger when this man was playing fast and loose with the NZ dollar in 1987.
    The Banker trust is the bank par exelance who pioneered the asset baked paper and junkbond business. They knew the product was crap but that didn’t stop them from pedeling it to corporations like proctor and gamble. When P&G caught on to the fraud they sued and got the taped recording from the BT http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/interesting-reads/the-bankers-trust-tapes/
    Why do I think John Key operated in this market? Well, on his website he states that one of his functions with Merrill Lynch was the head of the European bonds and derivatives department. Thase are exactly the products that are now causing the subprime financial collapse. Take a look at this video and you’ll know how they went about it http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/2008/01/25/interview-with-an-investment-banker/
    Additionally read the 5 part financial tsunami series
    http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/the-financial-tsunami-the-preeminent-role-of-new-york-banks-and-wall-street-investment-banks/
    I don’t think you would become the head of such a department with out knowing exactly what is going on don’t you think?
    JK makes it look like he was not involved with the American Financial market and he says on his wwebsite that he was a london banker, but on the Nation website you can find a speech he did for the American/New Zealand Friendships association. He states that he lived in New York of and on for 6 years and that two people he hired died in the attacks of 911. This puts him New York and Wall street with a bank that was involved in the Enron Scandal and is a major player in the subprime collapse. In 1999 he was on of only four Forex dealers who was invited to be an advisor to the Federal Reserve of NY. In the same year the Glass-Steagall Act of 1933 was repealed which used to prohibit Commercial banks and investment banks to merge. It was the start of the artificial housing bubble.
    Stiglitz categorically states that the Federal reserve under Greenspan consiously started the latest bubble knowing full well what the end result would be.
    15 finance companies died last year in NZ alone, 4 billion is wiped off the state surplus, 1.7 billion of the pension fund, 2 billion ripped of from small mom and pop investors. Nation should be howling with righteous indignation about the fact that those people were not protected against unscruplulous investors, they would make an electoral killing, Yet not peep from them.
    Is it possible that John Key’s career could not stand the ensuing investigations and that he would be exposed for what he really is; an unscrupulous financial predator, who is send back to NZ by his banking and corporate mates to rape the countries assets and resources. I would love to ask him don’t you?

  4. higherstandard 6

    Trav

    So this is going to be the Standards next attack on Key – that he is at the heart of the sub prime crisis ….. methinks you have lost the plot.

  5. “The offshore opinion is rather different, and you can’t get any economists here who are not either employed by banks, selling their book, or have an axe to grind”

    Huh, what about all the independent forecasters like Berl, NZIER, and of course Infometrics. These organisations have taken a more moderate stance on credit crunches impact on NZ. Also Westpac have remained reasonably positive about the economy, even when they have been faced with rising wholesale rates.

  6. insider 8

    Trav

    You left out the bit on Jewish bankers and that he is part Jewish…

  7. Tane 9

    insider – too far.

  8. insider 10

    Tane

    It was irony – every other conspiracy was in there.

    Steve

    I listened to the radio peice above and there was no mention of money speculators – which I take to mean people trading the differences btween different currencies. It is all about structured finance vehicles which developed to make money from low interest rates and the overconsumption/over lending in the US, and the misrepresentation and misselling of the loans that backed them. I struggled to hear reference to any international dimension.

    Seems another distortion to make a cheap political point.

  9. Matt – care to discuss NZIER’s funding?

    insider – jeez is that the best you can do? Try harder mate, I know you’ve got it in you.

    HS – it’s “standard’s” (the apostrophe is possessive – how did you ever pass communications english?). Other than that see my comment to insider.

  10. “Matt – care to discuss NZIER’s funding?”

    NZIER’s funding – well their forecasts are funded from a trust aren’t they? Isn’t it part of their public good work. Furthermore they sell their forecasts to businesses in order to help make business decisions. They definitely aren’t tied to credit market interests as much as the banks – which was the point I was trying to raise.

  11. higherstandard 13

    Sod

    No it’s “Standard’s” capitalisation necessary I believe. Didn’t have communications English when I was at school just plain old fashioned English.

  12. So med school prior to the early nineties then?

  13. big bruv 15

    The sub prime crisis is what happens when you lend to Democrats or Labour voters.

  14. And another fine contribution from Bruv – don’t you have some flies to pull the wings off or something you thick bastard?

  15. I give you facts and you Higherstandard and Insider give me crap?
    I state facts and all of a sudden I am “the Standard” just because I wrote a comment. Honey, if you can’t stand the facts than give me yours but don’t give me crap. And you Insider, as far as I know the CEO of Merril Lynch who was John Key’s boss at the time was a black guy and most of the bankers are White Anglo Saxon protestants Waspies in other words.
    George Herbert Walker Bush’s daddy financed Hitler, but oh, wait, you are right, the Rockefeller family and the Rothchild family are Jewish and they financed Hitler too. Greed must run in every race of human beings Jews included. Again debate me on the facts, not with silly sad ad hominems, but boy, I hope you read as much as I do. Because I’m ready to take you on.

    Kind regards

    Evelyn Gilbert

  16. Higherstandard 18

    Dear Eve

    Your post signed off with the comment

    John Key’s career could not stand the ensuing investigations and that he would be exposed for what he really is; an unscrupulous financial predator, who is send back to NZ by his banking and corporate mates to rape the countries assets and resources. I would love to ask him don’t you?

    I treat these kind of ‘facts’ with the same contempt as those from the other side of the political specturm when they make comment about Helen Clark and Peter Davis’ sexuality – it is all complete bunkum.

    Grow up !!

  17. insider 19

    robsod

    can you point to the part of the panel discussion where they “put the blame where it belongs – international finance speculators.” It’s 50mins long but I didn’t hear any mention of it.

    what I did hear was a lot of discussion about misselling of loans and misrepresentation of securitisations. No currency trading at all. Perhaps your ears are better than mine.

  18. Dale 20

    So clearly Irish the market should be crushed and controlled by communism. You may not realise that it is H1 and H2 in charge not Jon.Or are you too full of St Pats.

  19. Insider – I don’t see any mention of currency speculation in Steve’s post. I’d class the sub-prime bubble as financial speculation gone wrong (as would those in the interview) so I can’t quite see your point…

  20. You should set yourself some higher standards Higherstandard,

    The complete sentence is not a fact and not presented as such, it is a question. the complete quote is:

    Is it possible that John Key’s career could not stand the ensuing investigations and that he would be exposed for what he really is; an unscrupulous financial predator, who is send back to NZ by his banking and corporate mates to rape the countries assets and resources. I would love to ask him don’t you?

    I have a lot of questions for John Key, you can find them here: http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/questions-i-would-like-john-key-to-answer/

    And as far as growing up is concerned sweety, I’m 51 years old and I have probably seen more politicians coming and going than you, and again what is it with these sad little ad hominems.

  21. Occasional Observer 23

    Robinsod

    Saying the sub-prime bubble is financial speculation gone wrong, and Steve’s implication that John Key is responsible because he was a financial speculator, is like saying totalitarianism was political science gone wrong, and therefore Helen Clark is responsible for Pol Pot, Adolf Hitler, and Josef Stalin.

    If anybody made that last statement they would be laughed off the Standard. Trying to smear John Key is just silly.

  22. Higherstandard 24

    Eve

    I have looked at you site and I would encourage everyone else to do so.

    Congratulations on your recent half century.

  23. Higherstandard 25

    Eve or Travellerev if you prefer

    I note another fascinating piece on your site

    http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/open-letter-to-the-hon-phil-goff/

    Do you think John Key is involved in this conspiracy as well

  24. randal 26

    the sub prime fiasco is just another bubble which inevitably follows an orgy of speculation or too much money. best never forget that the arbitrageurs take a turn going up and down and they dont really care. it never affects them if they are sufficiently well insulated and scruples ethics and morality are left far in the background when it comes to country estates, ivy league universities for the kids and any other limited goods they wish to purchase

  25. Higherstandard 27

    Rich pricks eh Randal

  26. You asked for this, Mate.

    I haven’t thought about it quit frankly, but I was in Sidney this weekend to visit the first 911 truth conference outside of the US. I was in excellent company. Apart from eminent scientists, Architects, Engineers, an Ex-director of the Star wars project under two US presidents, Yuki Fijita San, the leader of the biggest opposition party of Japan, the Democratic party, director of the committee for foreign relations and defence, and the shadow minister of Defence was there as well.
    He was not there as a single conspiracy nutter but as the representative of his party. He made several speeches about the subject and wants a new International investigation of the events of that day.
    I have in my wallet his calling card and permission to contact him with regards to the subject, and I have every intention to approach our politicians with this, since he would like to talk with them about the subject.
    He has travelled around the world for the last six weeks after making a formal presentation about this in the first meeting of the committee this year.
    Also present was the prime minister of Japan and several of his ministers. This was televised on prime time mainstream Japanese television. This is part 1 with English subtitles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3LMogcOuPI You will find the rest on that page as well.

    The fact that he could travel the world on this subject, meeting with Euro parliamentarians and Dutch, English and Norwegian high ranking politicians without being ridiculed and maligned should have been major News.
    Imagine, the second most powerful man, who might very well be the next prime minister of the second most powerful economic country in the world says openly that he has serious questions about the events of 911. This should be front page news, and yet I bet you knew nothing about it.
    What was it that John Key laughed about and ridiculed? Oh yeah: people accused the NZ Herald of being a big media conspiracy newspaper and involved in suppressing negative information about him and clearly being in support of National.
    I wonder, Fairfax, the owner of every single newspaper in New Zealand is owned for 10 percent by, ooops why am I not surprised; Murdoch!!!!

    You see, it is no longer just a conspiracy theory. Do we have all the answers? No, but
    thanks to scientists, architects, engineers, pilots, whistle blowers and other brave people it is now proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that the official story is scientifically impossible. http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/

    The official story is the “conspiracy theory’ now.

    19 Arab (or any other race for that matter) with box cutters could not stand down the most expensive defence system in the world for more than two hours in the most protected airspace of the world.
    Steel framed buildings do not collapse into their own footprints in free fall speed merely because a plane with approximately a child’s swimming pool amount of kerosene burning inefficiently slams into it.
    Especially not the Twin towers, who were designed to withstand such an impact.
    Added to that I suggest that you watch the third building that collapsed that day, WTC7 http://www.ae911truth.org/ a little bit lower on the page on the right side, this is the site were Richard Gage has uploaded his PowerPoint presentation. Richard Gage is an architect who specializes in the design of steel framed buildings.
    I leave it to you to draw your own conclusions.

    I leave you with some more proven facts though: Merrill Lynch ,the bank John Key worked for until March 2001 was involved in a strange betting exercise just days before the events of 911 http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/stockputs.html#financial.
    WTC7 contained all the court papers and dossiers concerning the Enron scandal, Merrill Lynch was heavily involved in this scandal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_Enron_scandal.

    John Key was one of only 4 advisers to the Federal reserve of New York. This is upon invitation only and he was invited to join in 1999. The year the housing bubble was set in motion. Every single bank these four people represented are now heavily involved in the sub prime crisis. Merrill Lynch, Lehman brothers, City bank and Wahlberg.
    Although John Key states that he was a London banker (far away from the Wall street grime and slime) he contradicts this in a speech available on the National website http://www.national.org.nz/Article.aspx?ArticleID=10988 in commemoration of the events of 911 no less.
    That puts him right in the thick of it. You can’t get much higher in the food chain of the predatorial, dog eat dog, world that is International finance world.
    And let’s not forget that the federal reserve bank of New York is a private corporate entity. Watch “the Money masters’ or “Money as debt’ on my site.
    So if you think that you can get to were he got and still be an “innocent’ than I’ve got a rain forest in the middle of the Sahara I would like to sell to you.

    Was he involved in 911 I don’t know.
    Was the international finance world involved? Let’s put it this way. Buzzy Krongard was the director of the A.B Brown bank. This bank was bought by the Bankers trust Bank (a bank that John Key also worked for), granted this was 3 years after John Key left, but at the level John Key operated it is a very small world.
    Buzzy was involved with the CIA since 1998.
    His bank was heavily involved in insider trading in the days leading up to the events of 911.
    Buzzy became the Executive director of the CIA in March 2001, the same month by the way John Key left for New Zealand to be the new poster boy for National.
    If you consider Don Brash (a Banker) had close connections with the Neocon movement (Hollow men, Nicky Hager)and the “Project for a new America” the neocon group that hailed the 911 events as the “New pearl Harbour” that lead to the Afghanistan, and Iraq wars, and if you remember that both John Key and Don Brash were heavily involved in the “Breathren finance scandal’ than I think it is save to assume that he knows more than he is telling us.

    I hope you click on some of the links and I’m always ready for debate with facts and reason.
    Leave a comment on the Aotearoa site. I’m currently working on a forum on International finance and 911. I hope to see you lot there when it is up and running.

    Evelyn

  27. higherstandard 29

    Oh dear oh dear

    captcha – the hospitals………… Yes psychiatric I suggest would be a good place to start

  28. Occasional Observer 30

    Travellerev:

    Yukihisa Fujita is not the leader of the opposition in Japan. He is a fringe, junior member of the DPJ, which has never held the government benches. He is not a leader of any of the factions of the DPJ, let alone leader of the DPJ itself. He is not particularly prominent at all in Japanese politics. The DPJ holds just 113 seats in the House of Representatives, as opposed to 296 by the LDP.

    You’re not doing any favours to your whacko argument by claiming that Fujita is a likely future Japanese Prime Minister. He’s not the second most powerful man in Japan. He’s not even the 500th most powerful man in Japan.

    It isn’t difficult for minor politicians to meet senior European dignitaries. Retiring MPs Brian Connell, Katherine Rich, and Marian Hobbs will no doubt meet senior dignitaries on their farewell junket to eastern europe next month. That doesn’t make them the second most powerful people in New Zealand.

    You seem to try to make something of the fact that Don Brash may, or may not have, met Richard Armitage and Robert Zoellick. You ask what connections John Key has with Richard Armitage. I don’t know, and neither do you.

    But you might want to be careful here. Phil Goff has met Richard Armitage several times. http://usinfo.state.gov/sa/Archive/2004/Feb/02-128658.html . So too has Helen Clark.

    Helen Clark, Jim Sutton, and Phil Goff have all met Robert Zoellick on multiple occasions.

    Unfortunately, Travellerev, your wild-eyed, crackpot theories just don’t stack up. Perhaps if you at least tried to base some of them in facts, you’d get more traction.

  29. Higherstandard 31

    Eve

    I also remember Phil Goff lost a much loved nephew in Afghanistan so i would suggest sending him letters such as the one on your website is not only in very bad taste but hurtful in the extreme.

  30. Occasional Observer 32

    Oh, and you will note, Travellerev, that Helen Clark and Richard Armitage played key parts in the US-NZ Partnership Forum in Auckland just six months ago. Clark was a key-note speaker, and Armitage led a forum debate. Phil Goff participated in a forum debate, and Winston Peters delivered closing remarks.

    US Assistant Secretary of State Christopher Hill, also a “neo-con”, delivered a keynote address.

    John Key wasn’t present.

    Sounds like Goff, Clark, and Peters are in on this conspiracy, though. Maybe you should expose them, and try and get them to turn their backs on America. Instead, you should encourage New Zealand’s leaders to engage with the second emerging superpower, instead of the US. New Zealand should develop stronger relations with that peaceful, democratic, progressive, freedom-loving country to our North: How about China?

  31. Occasional Observer, what a pity you started out so well.
    Bang on the mark with what are presumable facts and than inexplicably you start calling me names again and you don’t attack me on the facts anymore. wacko theories, wild eyed conspiracies. Trust me I would feel whole lot better if Newton’s laws of motion and energy were expendable, I would feel a whole lot better knowing that 1.2 million Iraqis didn’t die because of a brutal conquest for oil, but because they simply “weren’t ready for democracy”. I would love to find that women in Afghanistan could take off their Burka’s but really they just don’t want to. I would really be happy to know that Phill Goff’s beloved nephew died honourably on the battlefield defending our freedoms instead of in another brutal and illegal war for resources and opium. And those people that lost their loved ones in New York and Washington would love to find out once and for all that their loved ones really did die as a result of an unprovoked terror attack by 19 Arabs with box cutters, but you know I know some of those people now and their pain is seared in my heart, and they don’t believe that is why their loved ones died. They had 70% of their questions not even looked into by the the Hamilton Kean commission. They hurt and it is not hard to face up to ridicule from people like you and if with every shitty remark from people like you there are 2 people who have the courage to look up the facts for themselves than that is worth it to me, and my fellow travellers.
    So if you can debunk the facts that make up the body of evidence that has been compiled over the years by scientists, architects, engineers, journalists and a multitude of private and military citizens from around the world than I would hugely indebted to you.
    But you know, I don’t think that you are able to.
    You’ll probably say something like I won’t dignify all that crap with an investigation on my part, but hey there you have it.

    I said I was ready to debate on facts. I will double check your statements with with regards to Mr. Fujita and will happily acknowledge defeat if they stand up. The democratic party as I just checked is still the second biggest party, of Japan I would not consider that fringe, but does it change what he has done and how it was perceived by the Japanese prime minister his ministers, the media. Well let’s see. If what you say is right and he is just a small fringe politician than it is all the more amazing that they gave him the time of day. It would have been so easy to laugh him out of politics if he was just fringe so why didn’t they.
    So let’s see the committee for foreign Affairs and Defence allows this small fringe politician to make a 30 minute presentation about the collapse of WTC7 in free fall speed (No official explanation has been given to this day)at the end of the day off 911 and about assorted other anomalies of that day. I gave the link so go watch it. Not only are they listening to him but the Prime minister of Japan and some of his cabinet are present to listen to this small fringe politician.
    In fact they are there to try and answer some of his questions. 25 Japanese citizens died that day.
    Not only that, the mainstream Japanese TV shows this presentation of this minor fringe politician on primetime TV.
    And still nobody throws this crazy wide eyed conspiracy nutter fringe
    Politician out of the party for damaging it with his unsubstantiated theories. In fact 30 of his colleagues thank him after his presentation and all want a new investigation.
    And than this crazy fringe politician goes on a world tour to meet with other politicians, and again no ridicule but sincere gratitude from both politicians and scientists for his courage to breach this controversial subject.

    About contacts between the Neocons and labour, if they had contacts with members of the neocon group who at the time had legitimate functions in which it was appropriate for members of the Governing party to have contacts that would be one thing. If they had contacts secretly to further a secret agenda than that yes indeed would be highly suspect and I no compunction about wanting to find out about that. In fact I can’t wait for Nicky Hagers new book, which is about Helen Clark I believe.

    One thing though. You guys keep saying that I have theories and that apparently I try to fit the evidence around this theory. The funny thing is that is exactly what the Bush Cabal did. It is people like us who say hang on minute: There was no yellow cake, Sadam had no weapons of mass destruction (Something Scott Ritter, weapons inspector, Republican marine said before the iraq war started) steel frame buildings don’t pulverize in free fall speed from a kerosene fire. All we are saying(70% of the American people want a new investigation) is that the official conspiracy is impossible. That’s all. It is tempting to theorise about what really must have happened but it is not our job to prove what really happened. We did our job, the official story can’t have happened, all we can do is spread the facts and hope more people wake up to this horrible truth.

    So don’t believe me, do your own research, and start by clicking on some of the links I gave you in the previous post.

  32. r0b 34

    In the interests of balance, re the 9/11 stuff, readers might also wish to consider: http://www.debunking911.com/

  33. Occasional Observer 35

    Travellerev:

    If you want facts, try holding back on some of your own rhetorical flourishes.

    Fact: You claimed Fujita is the leader of the opposition, and the “second most powerful man in Japan”. You asserted he could be the next PM of Japan. He isn’t the former, nor either of the latter. He’s a minor-ranking politician who has never held government office, in a party that has never been in government. I note that a number of conspiracy blogs promote Fujita as the “probable next Prime Minister of Japan”. That could not be further from the truth. Just because some conspiracy nuts promote him as such does not elevate him to that position.

    Fact: You claim it is exceptional that Fujita made a supposed 30-minute presentation to the Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee of the Diet. You claim it is exceptional that the Foreign Minister and Defence Minister were in attendance. It has been six and a half years since the 911 attacks. The Foreign Affairs and Defence Committee of the Diet has the power to summons anybody, including the PM and Foreign Minister. It has similar powers to a sub-committee of the US congress. Many US congressional members have questioned senior US officials about 911. Many have taken more than thirty minutes to do so. It is not exceptional, at all.

    Fact: You claim it is exceptional that the proceedings of the Diet were broadcast on Japanese television, “primetime”. This is untrue. NHK, Japan’s national broadcaster, broadcasts all proceedings of the Diet on its dedicated parliamentary channel. It was not aired, live, primetime, on the NHK’s main service.

    What you are claiming, effectively, travellerev, is that if Keith Locke questions the Prime Minister in the House, and if the House broadcasts that answer on Parliament TV, then the fact that the Prime Minister is forced to answer Keith Locke’s questions, and the fact that Parliamentary TV is broadcast live, demonstrates the veracity and the significance of Keith Locke’s questions. It doesn’t. You’ve joined a group of fringe whackos who have pounced on a minor politician, and are too ignorant to dissect the truth.

    You claim that it is significant that Fujita goes on a “world tour” to meet other politicians. As I wrote in my last post, it is not significant. Politicians go on junkets all the time. When Sue Bradford goes to Sydney to meet an Australian Green MP, she doesn’t get insulted by that Green MP. The fact that a Japanese politician was welcomed in another country, and treated with respect and civility, does not mean everybody he saw was impressed and convinced by his views. It probably means the people he saw were acting politely.

    Adolf Hitler and Neville Chamberlain met each other several times, and were civil and polite to each other. It doesn’t mean that they agreed with each others’ views.

    You don’t know who has had secret meetings with whom. All we know is that you have accused John Key of having secret meetings with American neo-conservatives, without any evidence. There, is, however, evidence that these same demonic neo-cons met privately with Labour ministers, including the ministers of trade, foreign affairs, and the Prime Minister.

    I have been very patient with you, travellerev, in refuting your silly arguments point by point. My conclusion is that you’re a crackpot.

  34. Still no debunking 911 facts. And again with the crackpot.
    Hit me were it really hurts. 911. facts to debunk me please.

    Don’t believe me, do your own research http://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
    http://pilotsfor911truth.org/
    http://www.ae911truth.org/
    http://www.journalof911studies.com/
    http://crazyrichguy.wordpress.com/
    http://aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com/

  35. r0b 37

    Travellerev, I don’t think the 9/11 conspiracy theories are of much interest to The Standard. Anyone interested should do their own reading. You have listed links outlining the various conspiracy theories. For balance I’ll list just two sites that critique these theories:

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

    http://www.debunking911.com/

    I in no way intend to debate these issues on The Standard, and I suggest that it is unlikely that anyone else will either. Debate regarding NZ politics is of course, all on!

  36. Oh r0b,

    I always forget. the kiwi bloke in general is soooo provincial. (It is mostly blokes talking here in case you hadn’t noticed)
    They still think that they are save because they are on an island far away from everything and they can afford to think only about their little patch of the world.

    I am talking NZ politics. New Zealand soldiers are far away from their families and their country as a result of 911. That should be part of this election. I am not talking conspiracy theories. I’m giving facts. If I’m right (and with me lots of scientists, architects, engineers, US military, etc. etc.) don’t you think that the Standard par excellence should be the place to discuss this?

    By the way, why is it that when I ask about debunking facts that yerks like you start saying that we should not discuss this subject. I would love people to go check the sites you gave and than check my sites. All you have to do is not write in on discussions like this if you don’t want to debate the subject.

  37. r0b 39

    I always forget. the kiwi bloke in general is soooo provincial. (It is mostly blokes talking here in case you hadn’t noticed)

    Indeed I have noticed Evelyn, but one shouldn’t make assumptions about any particular individual. Matter of fact I’m really a dog.

    yerks like you start saying that we should not discuss this subject.

    No need to be rude Evelyn. I didn’t say that we shouldn’t discuss 9/11 conspiracy theories, I said I didn’t think the topic was of much interest, and that it was unlikely that anyone would engage. I could be wrong of course.

  38. You know what is so interesting r0b,

    I got a lot of hits via this threat on my site. A lot of them link through to the pages dedicated to 911. Perhaps people are interested to really discuss the issues they just don’t care to do it it with people like you or higherstandard or occasionalobserver.
    I’ve been called a crackpot and told to book into a psychiatric ward here so perhaps that is not so inviting for other people. So the rudeness started elsewhere.
    I have been hurled insult after insult yet not a single argument has been put forth that debunks our scientific research into the events of that day. I’ve bullied and told to shut up about 911 by you lot yet not a single reasonable argument has been offered against our research pertaining to that day. Every debunking piece of crap has been thourougly debunked by scientists and intelligent reasearchers. In fact overall most of the victims and survivors are all clamouring for a new and independent investigation of 911.
    It should be of real interest to discuss the events because (I’m sure Occasionalobeserver will correct me on this like he did on mr. Fujita but funny enough not on the events of 911)some 65 families have loved ones in Afghanistan, and with the resurgence of the Taliban those people could be very much in harms way. They are there because of the events on 911. Thousands of Afghanistani have perished as a result of the Western invasion into their country. People are still dying everyday in that country because the west felt justified to attack Afghanistan even though it had nothing to do with the attacks of 911.
    1.2 million people were killed in Iraq 3 million people are homeless and on the run. Iraq had nothing to do whatsoever with the attacks of 911, and the US is preparing an attack on Iran. Another country that had nothing to do with 911. 911 Was the excuse used in every warmongering speech from officials in the US. 911 is the base of every misbegotten adventure that the US is dragging the world into. Over 4000 American soldiers have perished in Iraq, they are there because of 911. Thousands of soldiers coming back from the illegal war of aggression and theft of resources are coming back wounded and traumatized.40.000 first responders who were the heroes on the “Pile” are ill and dying because they inhaled the dust from those buildings. Thousands of New York children have developed asthma because they inhaled dust from the pulverized buildings
    It is in fact the starting point of the last housing bubble that is now imploding. With banking products developed by the Bankers trust, in the early nineties while John Key worked for them.
    While the world was dragged into war the bankers ripped the American and world economy apart. It should be the most important topic we discuss.

  39. higherstandard 41

    Eve

    I think the reason people don’t want to engage on this subject is that most of us believe the most plausable explanantion – that terrorists hijacked and flew planes into a number of buildings in the USA – many of these terrorists were trained by Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.

    There is certainly vast amounts of evidence that this is what occured.

  40. OK, give me one piece of evidence,just one?

  41. higherstandard 43

    Bazant, Zdenek P. and Mathieu Verdure. “Mechanics of Progressive Collapse: Learning from World Trade Center and Building Demolitions” in Journal of Engineering Mechanics ASCE, Volume 133, Issue 3, pp. 308-319 (March 2007). Bazant and Verdure write, “As generally accepted by the community of specialists in structural mechanics and structural engineering (though not by a few outsiders claiming a conspiracy with planted explosives), the failure scenario was as follows…” (continues with a four-part scenario of progressive structural failure).

  42. higherstandard 45

    The journal of 911 studies somehow I can’t really take any of this seriously Eve – although I’m impressed you have so much time to dedicate to conspiracy theories.

    Have a nice life

    Goodbye

  43. RedLogix 46

    r0b, HS,

    I’m going to back Evelyn on this one.

    I have spent months of my life reading about 9/11. I have reached the firm conclusion that we have not been told the truth about what really happened that day.

    In the absence of the truth and much in the way of firmly corroborated evidence, there has been a lot of speculation. By it’s very nature speculation is a hit or miss affair. Some of it is plain wrong, some of it is interesting, but dubious…. and some of it is perfectly irrefutable.

    There is no one plank on which the 9/11 story rests. There is in fact a multitude of them. Far too many to even so much as briefly list in one post. No-one owes you the truth; you have to work to reach a position that makes plausible sense in your own mind… and in the end I determined that of all the “9/11 conspiracy theories”, the so-called official version is the most crazy of them all.

    I’m not going to try and debate it here. For one, this is a NZ political blog site and probably not the most receptive forum for it. For another, it’s all been done elsewhere and I’m not going to re-type other people’s work for the fun of it. But mostly, because I know from bitter experience, this is a topic so taboo that most people simply do not want to think about it, much less debate it with an open mind.

    After all, who the hell wants to be told that maybe, just maybe they had been rooting for the bad guys all along?

  44. r0b 47

    r0b, HS,

    I’m going to back Evelyn on this one.

    Fine RL, go for it. To each their own!

  45. Hi RedLogic,

    It is good to know there is someone else out there who has done his homework.
    I have to disagree with you though on the self censure.
    The Standard has a fairly stringent moderating policy. I know because comments I made have been censured before because they weren’t entirely on topic.
    In fact Insider gets a ticking of because he mentioned John Key’s Jewish ancestry in this thread. So we know that Tane is moderating this thread. I always abide by the moderators wishes, but so far we have been allowed this thread to develop as it has. So we have to assume that there is some interest in the subject. I therefore will keep the thread alive. I think that 911 is the most important event in all our lives whether you like it or not. That was the moment the world was hijacked and we are part of that world, therefore we should discuss it even if it is with morons who refuse to look at the evidence we give them.
    As they say you can bring a horse to water but you can not make it drink.
    As we write here other people read this and I get hits to my sites, and as far as I’m concerned every soul we can wake up in this sleepy little country is a help.

    aotearoaawiderperspective.wordpress.com
    crazyrichguy.wordpress.com

    To the morons: I have no theories as to who did it, I only know the official “conspiracy theory” is a load of impossible bunkum. S.C.I.E.N.T.I.F.I.C.A.L.L.Y. impossible.
    The NIST Bazant rapport stops at the moment of collapse. It gives no explanation as to how two 110 story buildings could pulverize in 8.9 seconds, it does not even mention the third building that collapsed that day. To this day they have yet to give an explanation for the 6.8 second collapse of that building. Doesn’t that strike you as odd?
    Have you even looked at the PDF’s I linked too?
    Because they completely rip the NIST apart based on S.C.I.E.N.C.E
    What is it you are so scared off to contemplate (And this of course is purely conjecture, since we have not had an independent investigation) the unthinkable: Factions in the US power structure decided that it was time to get their hands on the oil and in order to get the world to comply (NZ has soldiers in Afghanistan and that makes it NZ politics as far as I’m concerned, by the way) they killed three thousand people from all over the world. Get it!

    I have been very patient with you patronizing sods but man, get reading already.

    Oh by the way, with the help of my husband of twenty years, I am able to work full time on this. I have been for the last two years. I have studied every single paper written on this, I have seen every film made about the 911 events. It took me months to admit that perhaps it wasn’t 19 Arabs with boxcutters. I know some of the Scientists, Architects, Engineers and Military and Journalists and Filmers who make up the 911 truth movement. Like them, all I want is a new independent investigation. Nothing more, nothing less.

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