Ain’t Gonna Play

Written By: - Date published: 8:00 am, December 26th, 2017 - 187 comments
Categories: International, Media, the praiseworthy and the pitiful - Tags: , ,

Ella Yelich-O’Connor aka Lorde has cancelled her Tel Aviv concert. Concert organiser organiser Ryan Arieli said “She doesn’t deserve all this shit. The last thing she needs on her comeback tour is the army of globalists and anti-semites weighing down on her.” – Facebook

Justin Bieber, Radiohead, Lady Gaga, Rihanna, Justin Timberlake, Morrissey, and Kanye were fine with doing shows.

Lorde’s covering statement says she prides herself on being “an informed young citizen.” Shades of “Ain’t Gonna Play Sun City”, back in the day.

By default she is also siding with the 128 countries who last week voted to declare the US recognition of Jerusalem as “null and void.”

Make no mistake this will cost Lorde massively in the US market. It’s no mere ideological finger-wag.

Of the tiny moments of resistance in 2017’s cascading cataclysm against civility, tolerance, and decency in Europe, US, and most of the Middle East, this is the largest tiny moment from a New Zealander in a very, very long time.

The next electoral chance to shift Netanyahu is not until November 2019 – he’s stale but very hard to shift. And he’s Trump’s dwarf binary star in the Middle East. It’s a very long tactical battle to propose anything different and win government there. You have to go back to Perez and Rabin to see alternative futures to the current track.

But as we have seen in 2017, most effective progressive leadership is now in the hands of fresh leaders. It needs strong cultural signals to wake people up. Lorde is sending a strong signal.

As with South Africa in the 1980s, foreign pressure from small countries really works internally as a cultural shift.

Lorde will get major blowback, but this is a very powerful symbolic stand to make.

187 comments on “Ain’t Gonna Play ”

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  1. Johnr 1
    26 December 2017 at 8:21 am

    I’m pleased she has made this decision, hopefully it will encourage others of influence to do likewise.
    I guess you have to choose your battles, but, should she not then perform in the US because of its bullying imperialism. Or, Aust for its human rights record.

    • Carolyn_Nth 1.1
      26 December 2017 at 10:05 am

      The trouble with a blanket boycott of the US or Aussie is that there are everywhere in NZ. And some are just as opposed to the dominant government approaches.

      Better to choose who/what to boycott from the likes of US and Aus – and boycotting Israel/Tel Aviv, is indirectly a boycott against the ruling elites in the US.

      A soft boycott of dominant US and Aussie institutions may be the way to go – ie choose other institutions to support where possible.

    • SPC 1.2
      27 December 2017 at 1:27 pm

      It is wrong to ask Lorde why she is not boycotting other places, when there is only one international boycott/divestment campaign. The question is why there is only one such campaign?

  2. Grey Area 2
    26 December 2017 at 8:31 am

    Correction: Her name is Ella Yelich-O’Connor.

    [Right you are. I will correct – MS]

  3. Roy 3
    26 December 2017 at 8:32 am

    Hater will hate, but in time she’ll be remembered as the hero she is. Big up Lorde

  4. Sanctuary 4
    26 December 2017 at 9:30 am

    This issue clearly shows the peril of having a US based management team. T-Swizzle is of to Israel in June and I doubt Lorde’s US agent thought twice about booking her. But Lorde’s fairly quickly made decision to cancel is a good barometer of where the sympathies of her generation of New Zealanders lie – with the Palestinians.

    [deleted] and it’s paid allies in the sewer line Slater and Farrar will be now going after her. Therefore I say to the barricades of the internet, my friends, for a brave Kiwi lass needs us to fight her corner!

    [please don’t use anti-semitic rhetoric – weka]

    • JustPassingThrough 4.1
      26 December 2017 at 10:07 am

      [deleted]? What? You feel so emboldened you don’t have to hide under the word Zionist now?

      [how about we don’t start on having a go at each other and instead focus on the issues? – weka]

      • Ed 4.1.1
        26 December 2017 at 10:39 am

        The issue is how to react to an apartheid and expansionist regime like Israel, when that oppressive state is being supported to the hilt by the most powerful country in the world.

    • Tony Martin 4.2
      28 December 2017 at 9:03 pm

      Sadly the “brave kiwi lass” has just wasted the opportunity to put her views (misguided as they may be) to the Israeli powers that be. Now all she can do is wither under the blasts of scorn directed at her by those who know better.
      The situation in Palestine is far more complex than the BDS advocates claim and while Israel certainly has much to answer for, so do does Russia, USA, Iran, turkey, China and many if not most other nations where she is happy to perform!
      The very idea of a cultural boycott is ludicrous and far from justifiable as who decides what is worthy of boycotting and what is not? The BDS campaign that she seems to have been co-opted into is just a platform for anti-semites to beat Israel with but thankfully it is as pathetic and ineffective as it is hypocritical!

  5. weka 5
    26 December 2017 at 10:28 am

    I’m not sure there will be major blowback in terms of fans or sales. I’m sure there will be pushback from certain parts of the wider industry, but I’m guessing that most people in the US who listen to Lorde really aren’t going to be bothered one way or the other.

    • One Two 5.1
      26 December 2017 at 12:53 pm

      Hi Weka,

      I read Sanctuarys comment before you moderated it…

      Did you moderate because you believed the comment was ‘anti-semitic’ in nature, or because it could be interpreted/misinterpreted as such?

      Lorde will likely have that particular card used against her, incorrectly, and as such I would say it is a good opportunity to clear-up/expose some of the myths and misdirection about use of the term, ‘anti-semitism’

      • One Anonymous Bloke 5.1.1
        26 December 2017 at 1:08 pm

        So why don’t you go ahead and clear them up and expose them then?

      • weka 5.1.2
        26 December 2017 at 1:32 pm

        I moderated it because it was unnecessary and inflammatory to use that rhetoric in a conversation about a topic that is already very heated (no matter how it was intended). As you can see from the comment that followed.

        “Lorde will likely have that particular card used against her, incorrectly, and as such I would say it is a good opportunity to clear-up/expose some of the myths and misdirection about use of the term, ‘anti-semitism’”

        I don’t know what you mean there. My suggestion is to just take some care in how things are phrased.

        Personally I think the ‘anti-semitism’ accusation being used against those who urged Lorde to cancel is lazy and/or disingenuous as well as inflammatory and extremely partisan without regard for the arguments made. But let’s not forget that there are still people, including on the left, who are anti-semitic or who are ok using anti-semitic terms.

        • One Two 5.1.2.1
          26 December 2017 at 2:52 pm

          Thanks for the response, weka

          What I meant with the comment, was, there has been, and is on-going (lazy/disingenuous) of ‘ism’s’ deployed to shut down meaningful discussion about real issues..

          Examining some of the terminologies which are deployed to shut down and divert relevant topics is an essential part of enabling progress (IMO), but would be outside the scope of this article..

          Cheers

          • weka 5.1.2.1.1
            26 December 2017 at 3:03 pm

            I’m still not sure what you are referring to. I used an -ism, so if you are referring to the moderation I wish you’d just say so plainly.

            • One Two 5.1.2.1.1.1
              26 December 2017 at 3:33 pm

              On this thread you moderated using the ‘ism’, and on another thread by Ad, if I recall, you (without moderating)endorsed Ads threat of a ban to Garibaldi for comments made…(it was Ads article)

              I believe that Ad was too swift to accuse Garibaldi of the same’ism’, and I said at much at the time..

              Having seen sanctuarys comment, I do think you moderated it unnecessarily, today..

              However, and within context of your response to my questions, above, and if I interpret correctly, understand why you moderated sanctuary on this topic…and I agree with your taking a mindful approach to possible ‘inflammatory language’

              • weka …
                26 December 2017 at 3:55 pm

                If you want to refer to other moderations, please link to them so we know what you are talking about.

                Ok, so you don’t like people using the term ‘anti-semitism’ in response to people having a go at Jewish people or using rhetoric that feeds into anti-Jewish sentiment. For reasons. But you agree that it was ok to moderated the comment.

                Sorry, still no idea what your point is.

      • simbit 5.1.3
        26 December 2017 at 2:03 pm

        I got moderated once on this site – honestly can’t recall why or by who – but can remember being surprised and disappointed. Unlike you, I have no idea what term here was deemed unnecessary or inflammatory. I will say that Israel is easy pickings for liberal causes. NZ (I’m Maori), or Canada (where I now live) are rarely thought of as boycott material, good global citizens etc. So, while I have your attention, can I say both these settler colonial states rely on ongoing racist structures to maintain white middle-class lifestyles. At least in Israel the oppressor lives with palpable fear of retribution…

        • Ad 5.1.3.1
          26 December 2017 at 2:21 pm

          You will do better here if you generate facts and work your opinions up from there.

          I personally give Israel as much width as I can give them, but it’s pretty hard to defend Netanyahu’s actions over his rule.

        • weka 5.1.3.2
          26 December 2017 at 4:02 pm

          The moderation really had nothing to do with the topic of the post or Lorde etc. It was just some judicious deleting to prevent a flame war starting.

          I agree with your point about NZ and Canada. Perceptions of good global citizens by the dominant cultures, and both countries think highly of themselves as well, while doing some pretty shitty stuff.

          • simbit 5.1.3.2.1
            26 December 2017 at 4:20 pm

            Oh I accept the evidence-based approach, it’s what I do as a job, but my engagement with any website has become less committed and more random: there’s more to be gained from reading one good book.

            But I acknowledge the importance of this particular blog. (Up-to-date discussion, plus archival material). And Merry Xmas! Things can always be worse comrades!!

        • Paul Campbell 5.1.3.3
          26 December 2017 at 8:42 pm

          That’s true now, it was only a generation ago NZ WAS the focus of an international boycott, remember the Olympics that all of Africa boycotted because we were there and were sending rugby teams to support apartheid

  6. weka 6
    26 December 2017 at 10:30 am

    Here’s The Spinoff open letter that was part of the movement asking Lorde to not play,

    https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/21-12-2017/dear-lorde-heres-why-were-urging-you-not-to-play-israel/

  7. Ad 7
    26 December 2017 at 12:21 pm

    Back in the day, when they were uniting against South African apartheid, they did Ain’t Gonna Play Sun City:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlMdYpnVOGQ

  8. Draco T Bastard 8
    26 December 2017 at 1:17 pm

    Concert organiser organiser Ryan Arieli said “She doesn’t deserve all this shit. The last thing she needs on her comeback tour is the army of globalists and anti-semites weighing down on her.”

    I suspect that Ryan Arieli, like most people in fact, don’t understand why it’s just weird to be anti-semitic. And that it includes several nations.

    This is one example of the RWNJ twisting of language that has happened over the last few decades.

    But as we have seen in 2017, most effective progressive leadership is now in the hands of fresh leaders. It needs strong cultural signals to wake people up.

    Is it really leaders that we need? Or just a better way of shutting down the liars while propagating the truth?

    • Ad 8.1
      26 December 2017 at 1:43 pm

      We need people to step up.
      What Lorde did.
      That’s leadership.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1
        26 December 2017 at 1:56 pm

        Lorde seems to have ‘stepped up’ after everyone asked her to. That’s not leadership.

        Leadership would have been her not signing up to the Tel Aviv concert in the first place rather than cancelling afterwards.

        • Ad 8.1.1.1
          26 December 2017 at 2:18 pm

          Cancelling the concert cost her a shed-load of money.
          She has no political calling.
          She reacted to a market signal, and gave one of her own.
          Changing her mind sent the strongest signal possible.
          Leader.

          • Draco T Bastard 8.1.1.1.1
            26 December 2017 at 3:06 pm

            Cancelling the concert cost her a shed-load of money.

            She has a shed load of money and so that’s not actually meaningful.

            She has no political calling.

            From what I’ve seen she’s been quite political all her life.

            She reacted to a market signal, and gave one of her own.

            A reactive position – not a leadership one.

            Leadership is proactive.

            Changing her mind sent the strongest signal possible.

            That I’d agree with but, unless this was the plan all along, still not leadership.

            • Ad 8.1.1.1.1.1
              26 December 2017 at 3:14 pm

              Losing money to a professional musician is meaningful. May not be enough for you, but it was enough to change her mind. It has meaning to her and to her fans.

              She is definitely a citizen, as she says. That means she is more than a musician. We can be proud of that.

              Plenty of leaders change their minds. Very few lead a fan base so great. Doesn’t have to abide by your definition of leadership, but to her fans she is a leader.

              Changing your mind is definitely leadership. Especially based on a matter of principle which cost her personally.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                26 December 2017 at 3:21 pm

                Changing your mind is definitely leadership. Especially based on a matter of principle which cost her personally.

                Changing your mind would be if it was based upon facts and principle and then propagated outwards to change others minds. She changed her mind on this due to public pressure.

                The leadership here is from the people who started that pressure.

                • Union city greens …
                  26 December 2017 at 4:32 pm

                  Quite right DTB. If she was a pillar of the anti zionist, pro Palestinian resistance she wouldn’t have allowed the concert in the first place.
                  A calculated decision based on projected lost revenue against a short term financial gain.

                  Charlatan rich kid from Auckland got played and lost.

                • Ad …
                  26 December 2017 at 4:48 pm

                  Nope.
                  She responded to the people she leads.
                  She had the choice to go one way or the other on behalf of her fan base, as only she can make.

                  She chose …

                  …Leadership.

                  • Union city greens …
                    26 December 2017 at 5:00 pm

                    Nope, she leads no one. She would have played without the stink hitting the fan. No class. No respect.

                    How many commentators here would have even considered playing Israel? No many, if any.

                    Spin it however you like, but no bouquets for backing down on something that should never have even been countenanced in the first place.

                    Money talks and principles walk, except when the real left are on the case.
                    Good work protesters. Left 1 – Rich prick 0

                    • Ad …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:09 pm

                      5.8 million followers didn’t get some pro-Palestinian message from some glorious protester. Nope.

                      5.8 million followers just got Lorde’s message.

                      https://www.instagram.com/lordemusic/

                      Even if by some miracle here are some 5.8 million other people following someone else, this is her message to her people, and they got her leadership and only she herself uniquely can give.

                      Lorde leads.

                    • red-blooded …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:22 pm

                      Hey, this (remarkable) young woman is 20, and has been a professional musician since high school. Maybe she’s not politically informed enough for you, Union City Greens, but cut her a break – did you know much about Israel at that age? I sure didn’t.

                      Her tour will have been planned by her management (presumably with her agreement). With recent developments, people spoke up and gave her reasons why they thought she shouldn’t go. Others argued that she should. She responded by asking for a little time to inform herself more fully and make a decision – now she’s made one. Good on her.

                      I agree with Ad on this one – leadership.

                    • David Mac …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:51 pm

                      I would play. I’m anti boycott. Ever since Ronnie Smythe took his bat and ball home and wouldn’t let any of us kids play I’ve considered other ways of addressing Ronnie’s sentiment. I think it’s the right thing to do.

                      I think Lorde stands to do more for the situation by appointing Palestinian back up singers, introducing them mid-show and sharing their plight on a personal level.

                      I wouldn’t be looking for ways to boycott, I’d be looking for ways to make a positive difference.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    26 December 2017 at 5:25 pm

                    She chose …

                    …Leadership.

                    No she didn’t. She chose to follow the pressure.

                    • Union city greens …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:36 pm

                      Exactly.

                      She would have played without the protest, counted her bank balance and hoped no one noticed.

                    • Ad …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:40 pm

                      Look behind you right now and count your followers.

                      Go right ahead Draco and count whether that enables you to define leadership.

                      She has 5.8 million just on Facebook alone, let alone sales.
                      Her leadership, her way. Your self-proscribed definition means nothing to them.

                      Lorde leads.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      26 December 2017 at 5:57 pm

                      Lorde leads.

                      No she doesn’t.

                      Just because she has followers doesn’t make her a leader.

                      Or, to put it another way, if she had gone she would have been leading those people in support of Israel.

                      That she bowed to public pressure makes her a follower – just like her followers.

                      She’s young and she has been political before so I have hope. She’s shown Green tendencies so may become the next Jeanette Fitzsimons.

                      Your self-proscribed definition

                      It’s not my definition. Perhaps you should look up a dictionary or wiki.

                • greywarshark …
                  1 January 2018 at 3:30 pm

                  Nit-picking DTB. No doubt you have a noble action of your own to compare to. Just because Lorde is not as noble as you were or you think she should have behaved so earlier, don’t criticise her please. If you can’t say anything constructive say nothing at all is my advice. Which will annoy you very much I am sure. After all who am I to have anything to say.

              • D'Esterre …
                28 December 2017 at 10:26 pm

                Ad: “Losing money to a professional musician is meaningful.”

                It’s an instrumental, rather than intrinsic or principled, reason. Principle trumps instrumentalism every time.

                “Changing your mind is definitely leadership. Especially based on a matter of principle which cost her personally.”

                What I’ve seen and heard suggests that she changed her mind under pressure. I’ve read the open letter on The Spinoff: looks like emotional blackmail to me. The BDS activists bullied her, over an issue about which it appears she knew little.

                If she’d been motivated by the BDS principles, she’d not have scheduled a concert in Israel in the first place. The fact that she cancelled following an outcry from fans says that it wasn’t a priori because of principle: it was a reaction to said outcry.

        • Frank Macskasy 8.1.1.2
          27 December 2017 at 8:53 am

          No necessarily, Draco. You and I are “political animals”. We’re reasonably aware of the nuances of political issues.

          Most 20 year olds aren’t. Many of them don’t even vote. At her age, my own political awareness was superficial and formed by mainstream media BS.

          Sometimes it’s a steep learning curve for others.

          • Union city greens 8.1.1.2.1
            27 December 2017 at 3:45 pm

            So you’ll be advocating for the raising the voting age to 21 if 20 year olds are too thick to understand global political issues like the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

            • D'Esterre 8.1.1.2.1.1
              29 December 2017 at 10:22 pm

              Union City Greens: “So you’ll be advocating for the raising the voting age to 21 if 20 year olds are too thick to understand global political issues….”

              That’s not what Frank’s saying, UCG. As it happens, I agree with his assessment of the average 20-year-old’s political awareness. There are some at that age who are up with the political play: most aren’t. And he’s right that we weren’t either, at that age. It has nothing whatever to do with intelligence, or lack thereof.

              I don’t doubt that Lorde is up to speed on a number of political issues; however, the Israel/Palestine situation and the BDS campaign appear not to be among them. Again, it has nothing to do with her intelligence, which is clearly considerable, judging by the quality of her music.

              • Frank Macskasy …
                30 December 2017 at 4:11 pm

                That’s not what Frank’s saying, UCG. As it happens, I agree with his assessment of the average 20-year-old’s political awareness. There are some at that age who are up with the political play: most aren’t. And he’s right that we weren’t either, at that age. It has nothing whatever to do with intelligence, or lack thereof.

                Thank you, D’Esterre. That was indeed a spot-on assessment of what I was saying.

                Unfortunately, some folk appear to be projecting their own political consciousness onto a 20 year old.

                As you rightly pointed out, ” there are some at that age who are up with the political play: most aren’t”.

                For most young people, political insights and wisdom comes with experience, research, and sometimes, a “lightbulb” moment. (For me, it was the US-supported military coup in Chile in 1973.)

                Another was discovering that the instigator of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War was not the Arab states. The war was started by Israel when it launched a surprise attack on Egyptian airfields.

                These, and many other events came to me slowly.

                I sure as heck wasn’t conscious of these things at age 20, when I was so right-wing that Act On Campus would’ve welcomed me with open arms.

                Oh, how things change…

                And so, with embarrassing memories of my own youthful naïveté still strong in my mind, I understand how many other young people think.

                Re, Union City Greens’ comment to me;

                So you’ll be advocating for the raising the voting age to 21 if 20 year olds are too thick to understand global political issues like the Israeli occupation of Palestine?

                No. But I do advocate;

                1. Civics taught in our schools,

                2. More encompassing history and social studies taught – not just from a Western, anglo-saxon perspective.

                3. More in-depth history of our own country taught in schools. It is objectionable that NZ history taught me when the first shipment of frozen sheepmeat left Port Chalmers (1860-something) – but the war crime of Parihaka was never once referred to.

                No wonder so many 20-something year olds may not have a full understanding of the world around them.

                Especially when we have the likes of “Seven Sharp” and “The Project” served up nightly on a plate to “inform” us.

                • D'Esterre …
                  1 January 2018 at 2:36 pm

                  Frank: “Thank you, D’Esterre. That was indeed a spot-on assessment of what I was saying.”

                  You’re most welcome. Wilful misunderstandings of others’ arguments irks me.

                  As to what we were like at 20, I confess to having been a card-carrying, bleeding-heart liberal back then. But I was remarkably ignorant about the realities of situations like Israel. There was no internet then, and we weren’t aware of the extent to which the msm was running propaganda, especially but not exclusively for the US. It wasn’t until many years later that I realised how comprehensively we’d been propagandised.

                  “…the instigator of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War was not the Arab states.”

                  That was reported, as I recall, but glossed as justified, especially in light of Israel being surrounded by hostile states. The subtext was always Western guilt over the Holocaust. Then of course Israeli victories in that war were celebrated. Little mention of the cost, in Arab lives and large-scale displacement of Palestinians.

                  “More in-depth history of our own country taught in schools.”

                  I agree with you there. It really wasn’t until after I’d studied te reo, that I did some reading and discovered the ugly truths of colonisation. Everyone needs to know that stuff, though not sure how best to teach it. Some years back, teachers told me that it’s very difficult to convince high school children to take NZ history. Maybe that’s changed? But perhaps it needs to be part of a civics curriculum, so it reaches more people.

                • Union city greens …
                  1 January 2018 at 2:59 pm

                  Seems like you’ve made your mind up about the back down and threw 20 year olds under the bus to make it all work.

                  Luckily for me, the youth I know, under 20 and not in it for the dollars, all agree she should never have taken the booking in the first instance.

                  So plenty hope for some of our less self interested younglings.

                  And 20 aint a kid. I’d been out working for 4 years and renting a flat by that age.

      • Incognito 8.1.2
        26 December 2017 at 5:34 pm

        Lorde seems more like a role model to me or better even: a spokesperson for her ‘followers’, a conduit. But then again, I can also see her as some kind of ‘horizontal leader’ or grassroots leader if there’s such a thing.

      • mauī 8.1.3
        26 December 2017 at 6:02 pm

        Nope not a leader, a leader, or lets say a ‘celebrity’ leader uses their profile to highlight an issue at great cost to themselves, a la rugby player David Pocock highlighting mining coal or Peter Norman standing by black athletes at the the olympics.

  9. Philg 9
    26 December 2017 at 1:30 pm

    ” Lorde Shuns Jerusalem!” Oh lordy, lordy… Lol.

    • timeforacupoftea 9.1
      26 December 2017 at 2:44 pm

      The liberals will be smiling at the Wailing Wall for years to come.

      They should have left our kiwi girl alone, I hope her career in the US will not be hampered.

      • Frank Macskasy 9.1.1
        27 December 2017 at 8:55 am

        I hope her career in the US will not be hampered.

        Is that your sole concern when it comes to human rights?

        • Sabine 9.1.1.1
          27 December 2017 at 9:34 am

          it is a valid concern.

          the palestinian / israeli crisis is not of her making.
          she is 20.
          she is dealing with shit that was started by people a long long time ago.

          maybe we should actually have some pity for our young ones for frankly us older ones leave them nothing but misery, war, global warming, stupid ass conflicts like the I/P conflict and most of it in the name of global supremacy, oil, water and dominance.

          What has she done to actually deserve the bullshit that is thrown at her – on both sides btw – other then being a very young women who has been working full time, while going to school, while paying taxes and while literally minding her fucking business?

          this is her career, and her decision to listen to the concerns raised, her decision to not play in Israel could very well have a big impact on her career.

          What have you done today that would risk your career in the name of human rights?

          Seriously the kids are alright, its the adult that are full of bravado, fake courage and bluster.

          • Frank Macskasy 9.1.1.1.1
            27 December 2017 at 9:38 am

            the palestinian / israeli crisis is not of her making.
            she is 20.
            she is dealing with shit that was started by people a long long time ago.

            Agreed.

            On top of which, after this uproar, I doubt very many performing artists will even consider touring Israel.

            Israel and it’s trolls have shot themselves in their collective foot with their petulant bullying.

            • Sabine 9.1.1.1.1.1
              27 December 2017 at 9:47 am

              People will do what they will do.

              I feel bad for the hand that we have given to those much younger than us.
              Do ….your damned, do not……your equally damned.

              Maybe what we should finally address is why we expect the young ones to clean up the mess, or pay the consequences for the mess that our generation and that one before them have left them with.

              Israel will care very little about that little artist from NZ, it will not stop bullying, nor will it stop killing Palestinians. There is no one of the so called Adults that would make them stop.

              • D'Esterre …
                29 December 2017 at 11:05 pm

                Sabine: I agree with both of your comments above.

                “this is her career, and her decision to listen to the concerns raised, her decision to not play in Israel could very well have a big impact on her career.”

                This young woman’s had a hell of a trip put on her, both by her fans and by activists. As you point out, she’s being asked to take a potentially career-damaging stance over a complex issue, the roots of which are deep in the past; none of the mess in that part of the world is down to her generation.

                ‘What have you done today that would risk your career in the name of human rights?”

                I have asked the same question elsewhere. I doubt that any of those in NZ who’ve urged her to cancel her concert have anything like as much to lose as she does. It’s just plain bullying, to lecture her about the human rights of Palestinians; as if she must carry that load – for which she bears no responsibility – upon her shoulders.

                “Maybe what we should finally address is why we expect the young ones to clean up the mess, or pay the consequences for the mess that our generation and that one before them have left them with.”

                Yes indeed. In fairness to my generation, however, we were too young to have any influence over the establishment of Israel, even though it happened in our lifetimes. And in the decades following, we were systematically propagandised about Israel by the msm, such that we really had no idea of what was going on there. It wasn’t until the rise of the internet that many of us were able to get access to the real story.

                And I’d say that my parents’ generation knew even less about the situation in Palestine: censorship before and during the war and so forth. It was the British Empire apparatchiks which bore most responsibility for the disastrous decisions made, from the Balfour Declaration onward.

                We’re all ordinary citizens; we don’t get to influence to any extent decision making by our governments even now. Our parents’ generation had even less power. It’s important that we don’t sheet home blame to them for events over which they had no say; and it’s equally important that we don’t blame ourselves, either.

                • Sabine …
                  29 December 2017 at 11:40 pm

                  i don’t seek to bash our elders. They knew what they knew, they felt empowered enough to care about the issues and then handed them over to us, and we are now in the process of handing the conflict of I/P to her generation and its a ‘choose one of two’ options, neither which is a good one.
                  She is literally bulled into taking a position that will brand her as either’left wing’ or ‘right wing’.

                  There is no one out there really that advocates in her interest, scoring points that is all that it is. The Palestinian and Lorde be damned.

                  This is what irks me, she is too young to be forced into this shit by cynical adults. Another generation to be thrown to the wolfes.

                  • D'Esterre …
                    30 December 2017 at 9:58 am

                    Sabine: “She is literally bulled into taking a position that will brand her as either’left wing’ or ‘right wing’.”

                    That’s dead right. It makes me very uneasy, that activists see nothing wrong with this.

                    “This is what irks me, she is too young to be forced into this shit by cynical adults.”

                    My view as well.

                    • Frank Macskasy …
                      30 December 2017 at 3:55 pm

                      I find suggestions that she was “bullied” to be presumptious.

                      She may have been.

                      Or she may have done what other young people her age do and looked it up on the internet. And been dismayed at what she found.

                      We don’t know.

                      But she strikes me as a rather confident young woman who has strived to achieve her successes. She doesn’t look like the sort of person to be “bullied”.

                      We don’t know. We weren’t present.

  10. SPC 10
    26 December 2017 at 2:24 pm

    Two thoughts come to mind.

    1. Selective morality is the type most affordable commercially.
    2. Larger nations are not targeted for commercial boycotts.

    Lorde’s decision to tour, and then not, places at risk her presence in a larger commercial market (USA).

    While it has served the boycott cause well, it may come at a cost to her.

    Most artists will simply avoid the issue, not tour Israel, but have no position on the issue. This advantages them in larger commercial markets.

    • Ad 10.1
      26 December 2017 at 2:36 pm

      The Church of England, plus the Irish public sector trade unions, plus Belgium, plus the Swedish and South African dock workers, plus a good number of other musicians, have also refused service to Israel in protest.

      Plus Elvis Costello, who is actually a god.

      https://www.haaretz.com/life/.premium-1.831110

    • Draco T Bastard 10.2
      26 December 2017 at 3:15 pm

      Lorde’s decision to tour, and then not, places at risk her presence in a larger commercial market (USA).

      There’s ~300m USians some of which will listen to her songs. There’s more than a ~366m Arabs some of which will listen to her songs.

      And the Arabic peoples have understood commercialism far longer than the West.

      Then there’s the fact that there’s 1.5 billion Muslims and Mohammed was a Trader.

      We in the West have a strange idea as to what is the bigger market.

      While it has served the boycott cause well, it may come at a cost to her.

      She will lose some and gain some from her position. She may actually be better off because of that bigger market.

    • Hornet 10.3
      29 December 2017 at 8:49 pm

      The expression ‘selective morality’ is actually very apt when applied to the BDS movement.

  11. Ad 11
    26 December 2017 at 4:58 pm

    Lorde slammed as a bigot by Rosanne Barr:

    https://www.haaretz.com/life/.premium-1.831110

    This is the state of a major commercial backlash for Lorde that is going to cost here millions

    A major move of conscience by our own world-leading musician.

    Whereas actual leadership sounds like this:

    “I’m not too proud to admit I didn’t make the right call on this one.”

    • Ed 11.1
      26 December 2017 at 5:04 pm

      Roseanne Barr.
      What is her motive?

      It appears she is a shill for the Israeli state.
      So hardly an unbiased source.

      https://www.timesofisrael.com/when-it-comes-to-israel-no-holds-barred-for-roseanne-barr/

    • One Two 11.2
      26 December 2017 at 5:17 pm

      “…our own world leading musician…

      Only Lorde can truly know the genesis of the decision made

      Singer, songwriter in an arm of the ‘entertainment industry’ whose decision is neither that of a pioneer, or a ‘leader’ of any serious consideration…

      ‘Celebrating’ the actions/decision of others, is asinine…

      In the same way that sporting results are ‘celebrated’…

      • One Anonymous Bloke 11.2.1
        26 December 2017 at 5:31 pm

        She’s only an artist, after all. A member of a profession that has connections at all levels of society.

        Her decision will influence some people to take sides, and others to try and educate themselves about the “situation in the Middle-East, which is desperate, as usual”.

    • SPC 11.3
      26 December 2017 at 5:18 pm

      The criticism from Barr is too ludicrous to be taken seriously, a “bigot” would not have been planning on doing a show in Tel Aviv etc.

    • Draco T Bastard 11.4
      26 December 2017 at 5:31 pm

      Whereas actual leadership sounds like this:

      “I’m not too proud to admit I didn’t make the right call on this one.”

      No, leadership doesn’t sound like that.

      In this case, leadership wouldn’t have agreed to do a concert in Tel Aviv and would have stated clearly why not.

      Rather than bowing to public pressure.

      She’s done the right thing and that’s good but don’t confuse it for leadership.

      • Ad 11.4.1
        26 December 2017 at 5:36 pm

        The only confusion is yours. Obviously she doesn’t need the extreme and the old like you to confirm her actions. She confirms her actions herself, listening to her followers.

        You don’t have to follow Lorde. 5.8m of this world do.

        You don’t get to define leadership for her. They do.

        • Draco T Bastard 11.4.1.1
          30 December 2017 at 2:41 pm

          You don’t get to define leadership for her. They do.

          Neither get to define it.

          Having followers doesn’t make anyone a leader.

          Doing the right thing without public pressure does.

      • David Mac 11.4.2
        26 December 2017 at 6:20 pm

        Draco I think leadership is about inspiring others to pursue a specific outcome but the mark of a special leader is the ability to sell “I got it wrong, here’s why, I suggest we now do this, please continue to back me.’

        An Adolph that knew when to quit the Russian front and we could all be blonde and speaking German. Ja?

        • David Mac 11.4.2.1
          26 December 2017 at 6:52 pm

          Bill English needs to do that…front up with

          “I got it wrong, here’s why, I suggest we now do this, please continue to back me.”

          The variety of speculation on the outcomes of him making such a statement, in my mind, exclude him from that ‘Special Leader’ classification.

          Key might of sold it, with the right puppet-masters flat-out pulling strings.

          But Bill? I think he is looking at catalogues for the Rolls Royces of rotary milking machines as I type.

    • Frank Macskasy 11.5
      27 December 2017 at 8:46 am

      Funny how Israel’s trolls lovingly describe that country as “the Middle East’s only democracy” – and then proceed to behave like spoiled, petulant, bulling brats when they get their own way. Like… a certain despot on the Korean peninsula?

      One thing is for certain, after this shit, any other entertainer will think twice before looking at a tour in Israel. Israel and it’s trolling sycophants have shot themselves in the foot with their bullying.

      • Hornet 11.5.1
        29 December 2017 at 9:06 pm

        The claim that Israel is the ME’s only democracy is based on the Democracy Index (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_the_Middle_East).

        Also for the record, there are a significant number of artists confirmed as playing Israel in 2018, including Bon Jovi, Andre Rieu, A-Ha, Foreigner and Don Maclean. In the past two months alone, Coldplay, The Alan Parsons Project, David Garrett, Nick Cave, Take That, Kygo, Bryan Adams and Wisin have all played Israel.

        Hundreds of artists boycott Israel, and that is their right. As it is the right of any artist who chooses to play Israel to do so.

        • Ed 11.5.1.1
          29 December 2017 at 9:44 pm

          Some forgettable names there.

          • Hornet 11.5.1.1.1
            29 December 2017 at 10:28 pm

            Sure, as there are on the list of artists supporting the boycott.

            • Ed 11.5.1.1.1.1
              29 December 2017 at 10:56 pm

              I sense you disapprove of the boycott.

              • Hornet …
                30 December 2017 at 9:54 am

                Correct.

                • Ed …
                  30 December 2017 at 9:57 am

                  Is that because you support theIsraeli government?

                  • Hornet …
                    30 December 2017 at 10:45 am

                    I support Israel.

                    • Ed …
                      30 December 2017 at 10:52 am

                      The 1947 U.N. 2 state partition plan?

                    • Hornet …
                      30 December 2017 at 11:18 am

                      “The 1947 U.N. 2 state partition plan?”

                      I support a 2 state plan. I support Israel’s right to protect itself from aggression. I supported the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, until the Palestinians destroyed parts of the infrastructure left behind and starting firing rockets into Israel.

                • Ed …
                  30 December 2017 at 9:58 am

                  Did you support the economic boycott of South Africa?

                  • Hornet …
                    30 December 2017 at 10:48 am

                    I’m not a big fan of boycotts – they invariably harm the most vulnerable, while the nations leaders inoculate themselves from harm. In the case of SA, I opposed the apartheid regime. But if you are seriously equating Israel with apartheid SA, then you are mistaken.

                    • Ed …
                      30 December 2017 at 10:51 am

                      I think Palestinians might disagree with you.

                    • Hornet …
                      30 December 2017 at 11:22 am

                      “I think Palestinians might disagree with you.”
                      You mean the Palestinian Israeli citizens living in Israel who can vote, can stand for parliament, in fact there is an Arab parliamentary party in Israel (Balab).

        • Psycho Milt 11.5.1.2
          30 December 2017 at 10:45 am

          The claim that Israel is the ME’s only democracy is based on the Democracy Index

          It’s a “democracy” in the same sense South Africa was – ie, it is for some, yes. Not that being a democracy or not is relevant to the question of whether it’s OK to occupy and colonise another country.

          Also for the record, there are a significant number of artists confirmed as playing Israel in 2018…

          No doubt. There are plenty of right-wing musicians, and even more who don’t give a shit as long as they’re getting paid.

          • Hornet 11.5.1.2.1
            30 December 2017 at 10:56 am

            In Israel, all citizens get a vote. In fact there are a number of Arab citizens who vote for Zionist parties. That is democracy.

            How do you know only right wing musicians play Israel?

            • Psycho Milt 11.5.1.2.1.1
              30 December 2017 at 11:15 am

              In Apartheid South Africa, all citizens got a vote too. It’s just a matter of being picky about who gets to be a citizen, which is why the Israeli government won’t look at a one-state solution or right-of-return for Palestinian refugees.

              I didn’t say only right-wing musicians play Israel. It’s also played by musicians who don’t give a shit as long as they get paid. No idea which of those categories the musicians on your list fall into, but it’ll be one or the other.

              • Hornet …
                30 December 2017 at 11:33 am

                “In Apartheid South Africa, all citizens got a vote too. It’s just a matter of being picky about who gets to be a citizen…”

                All countries determine who gets to be a citizen. But SA went much further than that:

                Separate Representation of Voters Act, 1951
                Separate Representation of Voters Act, 1968
                Promotion of Bantu Self Government Act, 1959

                In Israel, Palestinian Arabs not only vote freely, they have elected representatives, and the right to form their own political parties.

                “No idea which of those categories the musicians on your list fall into, but it’ll be one or the other.”
                Or they could just be making a stand for Israel?

                • Psycho Milt …
                  30 December 2017 at 1:47 pm

                  In Israel, Palestinian Arabs not only vote freely, they have elected representatives, and the right to form their own political parties.

                  A small number do, yes. As with South Africa, maintaining the desired ethnic profile of the electoral franchise involved making most of the original inhabitants citizens of somewhere else. SA went to the trouble of inventing puppet states for them to belong to, Israel settled for the simpler expedient of expelling them (the refugees with no right of return) or making them stateless (the Palestinians of the Occupied Territories). The form of “democracy” involved is the same.

                  Or they could just be making a stand for Israel?

                  See “There are plenty of right-wing musicians” above.

                  • Hornet …
                    31 December 2017 at 1:04 pm

                    If you are referring to the 1948 expulsions, there was a strong Arab involvement in those. And you forget the expulsions of Jews from Arab nations that took place. As for the occupied territories, that can be linked directly to Arab nations aggression against Israel. Palestinians electing terrorist organisations as their government isn’t very helpful either!

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      31 December 2017 at 1:20 pm

                      Apologists for Apartheid had all kinds of disingenuous bullshit reasons why it was OK to disenfranchise inconvenient ethnic groups, too. Only racists and right-wingers in general bought the scam, though – much like in this case.

                    • Psycho Milt …
                      31 December 2017 at 1:39 pm

                      Er, yes. I didn’t say it was. “This thing has relevant similarities with this other thing” is not the same as “This thing is exactly like this other thing.” In other words, no Israel isn’t an Apartheid state, but the relevant similarities with South Africa that I’ve posted very much are relevant similarities and are bad for the same reason their South African equivalent was bad.

                    • Hornet …
                      31 December 2017 at 4:25 pm

                      “…but the relevant similarities with South Africa that I’ve posted very much are relevant similarities and are bad for the same reason their South African equivalent was bad.”

                      But they aren’t relevant similarities. SA’s policies were based on the system of apartheid. Israel’s policies are based on it’s status as an internationally recognised democracy, with associated rights to defend itself and its borders. Israel has not disenfranchised those Palestinians who agree to live peaceably within their borders.

                • Draco T Bastard …
                  30 December 2017 at 2:24 pm

                  In Israel, Palestinian Arabs not only vote freely, they have elected representatives, and the right to form their own political parties.

                  But not the right to have their land back and their own country after it was stolen from them by the UN and given to the Jews despite previous promises.

                  • Hornet …
                    31 December 2017 at 11:39 am

                    The land was not ‘stolen’, any more than any other land distributed under occupying powers. Israel is a legally mandated nation, one in which Arab and Jew enjoy democratic freedoms. History is well and truly in Israel’s side.

                    • Draco T Bastard …
                      31 December 2017 at 11:52 am

                      The land was not ‘stolen’

                      Yes it was. The Palestinians are a nation and they occupied that geographic location. Anyone trying to give it to another nation is stealing from the occupiers.

                      Israel is a legally mandated nation

                      Just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right. In fact, in this case, it is quite literally legalised theft.

                      History is well and truly in Israel’s side.

                      No. History shows that the nation state of Israel was conquered and eliminated 2000+ year ago.

                    • Hornet …
                      31 December 2017 at 1:07 pm

                      Palestine was a geographic region. It was never a nation.

  12. Tanz 12
    26 December 2017 at 6:49 pm

    Snowflake. Why book it in the first place? A set up. How very predictable, as we join in with bullies and terrorists.

    • Ed 12.1
      26 December 2017 at 6:51 pm

      Are you on this planet?

      • David Mac 12.1.1
        26 December 2017 at 7:31 pm

        If Adolph had of won do you think he would of let us stick with ‘New Zealand’? immense ego that boy. We might of become ‘Even Newer Zealand’ or ‘Brand New Zealand’….that’s sort of cool!

        Completely off the planet Ed, you are my inspiration.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 12.2
      26 December 2017 at 7:04 pm

      “We”? Who’s “we”? You and the Toad?

      Well established hierarchies are not easily uprooted;
      Closely held beliefs are not easily released;
      So religion enthralls generation after generation.
      Religion is the end of love and honesty,
      The beginning of confusion

      Lao Tzu c. 500BCE.

  13. Tanz 13
    26 December 2017 at 7:10 pm

    No, I don’t follow singers who cave in to political pressure. I am on the side of Israel, as are many Kiwis. Not everyone stands with the delusional and bossy left. Lorde must have known this would happen if she booked to play Tel Aviv, that’s why I suspect there is more than this than meets the eye. Bowie would never have cancelled and nor have people like Rod Stewart, etc. Guts to do the right thing, without all the virtual signalling etc. Where is Springsteen when you need him?

    • Ed 13.1
      26 December 2017 at 7:15 pm

      As usual, you speak for ‘many New Zealanders.’

    • One Anonymous Bloke 13.2
      26 December 2017 at 7:19 pm

      New Zealand foreign policy hasn’t changed much then: it’s always been something you’ll bear false witness about.

      cf: UN SC resolution 2334

    • David Mac 13.3
      26 December 2017 at 7:36 pm

      You could be on the side of: ‘Both parties reaching out’.

      A pre-requisite sort of needs to be: ‘not picking sides’.

      Love our children equally.

      • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1
        26 December 2017 at 7:40 pm

        Oh Tanz has made it quite clear: either you’re with her (and her invisible friends), or you’re agin her. This false dichotomy is yet another thing she bears false witness to every single day.

        • David Mac 13.3.1.1
          26 December 2017 at 7:55 pm

          Tanz cares about the same things we all do. A place to call home, family, health, financial well-being, a sense of purpose.

          We aren’t that different….

          “I’m a bit soft on the God stuff Tanz…but I’ll go to your Mum’s funeral and sing the hymns with gusto….because I like you.”

          • One Anonymous Bloke 13.3.1.1.1
            26 December 2017 at 7:59 pm

            There are good people on both sides. Where have I heard that before…? 😉

            • David Mac 13.3.1.1.1.1
              26 December 2017 at 8:18 pm

              Do you agree that fundamentally our 4.5 million wish-lists are pretty similar?

              The more left of us might imagine: “Exploit more poor people” on the lists of the hard right. I don’t see it that way.

              I think something like: ‘Help more people realise their potential’ could and should enjoy equal status on all lists.

              • One Anonymous Bloke …
                26 December 2017 at 8:28 pm

                Do you agree that fundamentally our 4.5 million wish-lists are pretty similar?

                There’s a range of behaviour that can be described as ‘normal’ – the day to day things people do. If the wish-lists are as diverse as the behaviours – legal, illegal, creative, destructive, etc. the commonalities may be few indeed.

                Cf: the difference between “being laughed at” and “being murdered”, as potential dating experiences.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                30 December 2017 at 2:37 pm

                The more left of us might imagine: “Exploit more poor people” on the lists of the hard right.

                We’re not imagining it. John Key definitely said that he wanted wages to drop and acted to make it so.

          • Tanz 13.3.1.1.2
            26 December 2017 at 8:53 pm

            Nice.

    • Chris 13.4
      26 December 2017 at 10:52 pm

      Springsteen’s busy ain’t playin’ Sun City but he’ll get around to it when he’s ready.

    • Frank Macskasy 13.5
      27 December 2017 at 8:42 am

      “Lorde must have known this would happen if she booked to play Tel Aviv”

      Jeez, TANZ, she’s 20 years old. How many 20 year olds do you know who are politically aware and saavy? You’re projected your own political nous onto her.

      I recall my own political knowledge at the time and it was woeful. (I was so rightwing and reactionary that I now blush at mis-informed views at the time. But let’s not go there.)

    • Marcus Morris 13.6
      27 December 2017 at 2:14 pm

      Nearly forty years ago New Zealanders were split almost fifty-fifty on the issue of the morality of apartheid in South Africa and whether or not our playing rugby with them gave the governing regime some sort of legitimacy. History has shown quite clearly that those of us who opposed the tour on moral grounds were correct in our stand. I suspect that there are as many pro-Palestine supporters in New Zealand as there are supporters of the current Israeli regime. There are thousands of Israelis who are also opposed to Netanyahu and his “team” – in fact many of these same Israelis are trying, as we write, to have him indicted for corruption. This same body of Israeli citizens are also ashamed and certainly uncomfortable with their government’s treatment of the Palestinians.

      Has Lorde shown leadership or been manipulated – who cares – she has made a stand according to her own principals – as a twenty year old she has taken on a huge responsibility and those of us who applaud her position need to give her all the support we can.

      By the way, the fact that I sympathise with the Palestinian people and their awful plight in no way makes me anti-semitic and I get very annoyed when this stupid connection is made. I am well aware of the appalling treatment and persecution of the Jewish people by the Christian nations of Europe over the last one thousand years. I just don’t accept the concept of the “promised land”.

      • Anne 13.6.1
        27 December 2017 at 2:58 pm

        There are thousands of Israelis who are also opposed to Netanyahu and his “team” – in fact many of these same Israelis are trying, as we write, to have him indicted for corruption.

        So true – the intelligent ones. I wonder sometimes how many Israelis have been driven out of Israel because they can no longer live with the brutality and the lies being uttered in their name. Of course we will never know because such statistics never appear in the MSMs of the English speaking world.

        I was once a strong supporter of Israel. Although I’m non Jewish, I have cousins in Britain who are half Jewish and who were brought up in a Jewish household. I wanted to go and live for a time on a kibbutz as a young woman, so it saddens me to see what has happened to Israel.

    • Brian Tregaskin 13.7
      27 December 2017 at 11:57 pm

      Tanz —
      Lorde did the right thing by cancelling “Tel Aviv’s hipster vibe is a bubble on the surface of a very deep security state”
      The gig is a controversial one with many bands urged to avoid performing in Israel in protest of the country’s occupation of Palestinian land.
      https://artistsforpalestine.org.uk/news/

    • Draco T Bastard 13.8
      30 December 2017 at 2:31 pm

      It’s the right-wing that are delusional. They are, quite literally, in denial of reality.

  14. Tanz 14
    26 December 2017 at 7:34 pm

    Cause under a leftie govt we will always ‘check with the UN first’. How weak is that, but a lot of Kiwis don’t agree with the UN, that is well known.

    • One Anonymous Bloke 14.1
      26 December 2017 at 7:38 pm

      The National Party doesn’t support you or your invisible friends. Why don’t you form your very own party so no-one else can support you too?

      • Tanz 14.1.1
        26 December 2017 at 8:49 pm

        You are not worth arguing with, my dear, I just can’t be bothered. Surely the angriest poster here, as well as one of the most prolific. Where is your sense of humour.

    • Brian Tregaskin 14.2
      27 December 2017 at 11:58 pm

      Tanz —
      “Tel Aviv’s hipster vibe is a bubble on the surface of a very deep security state”

  15. Macro 15
    26 December 2017 at 7:42 pm

    The desire of Israel to have Jerusalem as their Capital goes back to the time of David and it was only after David had taken the city from the Jebusites. The Israelites then set about establishing this site as a Holy city – but actually this was in contradiction of the apparent command of their God. (see 2 Samuel chapter 7 in which God apparently instructs David through the prophet Nathan:

    “5 “Go and tell my servant David, ‘This is what the Lord says: Are you the one to build me a house to dwell in? 6 I have not dwelt in a house from the day I brought the Israelites up out of Egypt to this day. I have been moving from place to place with a tent as my dwelling. 7 Wherever I have moved with all the Israelites, did I ever say to any of their rulers whom I commanded to shepherd my people Israel, “Why have you not built me a house of cedar?”’

    In other words God did not want a Temple – the wishes of God were to reside in the hearts of men. Compassion, Justice, and Good will to all, being the actual manifestation of this relationship. This has been overlooked by many in all of the religions now vying for Jerusalem as their “Holy City”.
    Israel conveniently forgets the revelation of Nathan to David, as did Samuel. We today also need to remember the fact that the building of great religious monuments has little to do with the actual mission- cf the desire of the residents of Chch to rebuild the Cathedral.

    • SPC 15.1
      27 December 2017 at 1:48 pm

      Things of note being the bible records

      1. that Jerusalem was not occupied by the Israelis until the time of King David, had not been part of any tribe’s territory and thus was suitable as a capital.
      2. King David did not build any Temple at Jerusalem, and the existence of a political capital is a separate matter from this.
      3. King David was however associated with bringing the “Ark” (held the ten commandments within) to Jerusalem but did not build any place to put it and this story is to explain why.

  16. David Mac 16
    26 December 2017 at 8:36 pm

    Talking with my kid, straight after I’d passed on my judgmental thoughts regarding Lorde’s awkward staccato stage movements I caught a glimpse of a mirror and saw my Dad sharing his thoughts on Joe Cocker.

  17. Frank Macskasy 17
    27 December 2017 at 8:49 am

    The Daily Blog is down. Shortly after two pro-Lorde stories were published. (A copy of one of them, re-pubbed on my own blog: https://fmacskasy.wordpress.com/2017/12/27/lorde-takes-a-stand/ )

    Coincidence? Or is Israel’s cyber-hackers working through the Christmas hols?

    • Anne 17.1
      27 December 2017 at 10:26 am

      It could just be a technical hitch, but It would come as no surprise if a bunch of ultra-right wing hackers are responsible for bringing the site down. Lets face it, we have had experience of ‘ultra right wing wanna-be hackers’ trying to sabotage left-of-centre blog sites. Ask Cameron Slater… who appears to have a highly suspect relationship with the Israeli government.

      Many years ago, I recall my father singing the praises of Golda Meir. A quick appraisal online of her political career suggests to me if the Israelis had stuck with her Labour Party instead of going down the road with ultra right wing war-mongering despots, then the whole situation in the Middle East would never have sunk to the appalling levels of violence and mayhem that tragically exists today.

      https://www.britannica.com/biography/Golda-Meir

      • Stunned mullet 17.1.1
        27 December 2017 at 12:11 pm

        “A quick appraisal online of her political career suggests to me if the Israelis had stuck with her Labour Party instead of going down the road with ultra right wing war-mongering despots, then the whole situation in the Middle East would never have sunk to the appalling levels of violence and mayhem that tragically exists today.”

        🙄 because in your mind all the Middle East’s problems should be sheeted back to Israel ?…once again 🙄

        • Stuart Munro 17.1.1.1
          27 December 2017 at 2:32 pm

          No – she is saying Israel would have done better to have a moderate internationalist leadership. Instead it got the murderous crook behind the Shatila massacre.

          The journalist, Ron Ben-Yishai, later recalled:
          ‘I found [Sharon] at home sleeping. He woke up and I told him “Listen, there are stories about killings and massacres in the camps. A lot of our officers know about it and tell me about it, and if they know it, the whole world will know about it. You can still stop it.” I didn’t know that the massacre actually started 24 hours earlier. I thought it started only then and I said to him “Look, we still have time to stop it. Do something about it.” He didn’t react.”

          https://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-crimes-against-humanity-remembering-the-sabra-and-shatila-massacre/5545969

          You cannot commit genocide and expect the Left to love you for it.

        • Anne 17.1.1.2
          27 December 2017 at 2:43 pm

          because in your mind all the Middle East’s problems should be sheeted back to Israel ?…once again.

          Nope, because over the decades other countries have to take a large share of the blame. Notable among them… Britain and America. Indeed, it’s my perception they are responsible for allowing ultra right-wing thugs to snatch governance of Israel in the first place. The Israeli people have been sorely misinformed and manipulated – just like Americans are being misinformed and manipulated by another bunch of thugs.

          Not that I expect you to understand what I’m saying…

          • Stunned mullet 17.1.1.2.1
            27 December 2017 at 3:24 pm

            🙄 I do note that you fail to mention any allocation of blame to other countries in the middle east or indeed outside the middle east apart from the usual suspects of your ire Britain and the USA….how very predictable.

            • Ed 17.1.1.2.1.1
              27 December 2017 at 3:48 pm

              Who would you blame?

              • Stunned mullet …
                27 December 2017 at 4:39 pm

                Instead of playing the blame game how about background reading – start with any of these publications.

                A Fundamental Fear: Eurocentrism and the Emergence of Islamism
                Sowing Crisis: The Cold War and American Dominance in the Middle East
                The Israel-Arab Reader: A Documentary History of the Middle East Conflict
                The Iron Wall: Israel and the Arab World

            • Anne 17.1.1.2.1.2
              27 December 2017 at 6:55 pm

              The usual subjects of my ire Britain and the USA? You’re talking from that very large hole in your head! I’m a British subject – or was until I became a NZ citizen. I have nothing but the utmost contempt for the Trump regime but that doesn’t make me anti-American. I detest the current Israeli government but that does not make me anti-Jewish.

              I did say I didn’t expect you to understand…

      • Morrissey 17.1.2
        27 December 2017 at 2:58 pm

        Anne, Golda Meir was no Jeremy Corbyn, I’m afraid. She was as brutal and uncompromising as Ariel Sharon.

        Nothing is more misleading than the belief that Netanyahu is the only problem. Labour is the founding father of the settlements. I would rather have the right wingers in power, because at least they are honest. If Labour gets into power, it will meet with Abbas. The world will applaud. Negotiations in special committees will go on for one and a half years. The negotiations will go nowhere. Like Oslo. Everyone will support Israel—“what a peaceful state!” At least with Netanyahu, what you see is what you get.

        —-Gideon Levy, Auckland, Dec. 3, 2017

        http://morrisseybreen.blogspot.co.nz/2017/12/soon-even-notion-that-israel-is.html

        • SPC 17.1.2.1
          27 December 2017 at 3:11 pm

          With Sharon, it did get complicated. He supported disengagement (withdrawal from Gaza and from areas of the West Bank) and formed the breakaway from Likud, Kadima to do this.

        • Anne 17.1.2.2
          27 December 2017 at 3:13 pm

          She may not have been a Jeremy Corban Morrissey, but she could not have had any idea how her solutions to the problems of Israel would be distorted and used in the coming decades. From memory she died of Leukemia shortly after she left politics.

  18. joe90 18
    27 December 2017 at 10:57 am

    Reason number ###.

    This Israeli MP abused Palestinian mothers who were on their way to visit their relatives in Israeli jails. pic.twitter.com/Gez02zxuPd— AJ+ (@ajplus) December 26, 2017

    https://twitter.com/ajplus/status/945714599264792576

    • Anne 18.1
      27 December 2017 at 11:59 am

      There’s a good example of an an Israeli ultra right wing war-mongering despot. I’m tempted to add a few more ‘descriptive’ words but they would be unacceptable on this site. Suffice to say these are the types of scum and vermin who threaten the entire Middle East Peace process – no better than their ISIS neighbours.

    • mary_a 18.2
      27 December 2017 at 3:50 pm

      joe90 (18) …

      Oren Hazan is a fiend of the worst possible kind. To board a bus full of vulnerable inoffensive women visiting their sons in an Israeli prison and then to proceed to insult them and their families in the manner in which he did, is the action of an evil cowardly piece of scum!

      I wonder what his reaction would be if/when the menfolk related to these poor women, got/get hold of him? He’d be screeching like a banshee, pleading for his vile rotten life! These innocent women deserve some form of justice for the abuse they suffered at the hands of this nasty gutless bastard! As for me, I don’t care how it’s dished out to him! Hazan has it coming to him.

      If Hazan is typical of the government he seems to proudly represent, then the whole damn lot of them deserve to rot in hell, as do their supporters!

    • joe90 18.3
      29 December 2017 at 9:52 am

      Oren Hazan, tweaker in high places.

      So turns out Oren Hazan, the new member of Knesset from Likud, used to pimp prostitutes in the casino he owned in Bulgaria— JeruSalem Yahoodi (@yoskesh) June 8, 2015

      https://twitter.com/yoskesh/status/608034401939800064

      A court ruled on Tuesday that former deputy Knesset speaker MK Oren Hazan (Likud) used hard drugs and managed a casino in Bulgaria. The court further ruled that calling Hazan a “pimp” in an investigative report was valid based on the report’s findings.

      The Tel Aviv Magistrate’s court based its ruling off Channel 2 journalist Amit Segal’s June 2015 investigation, where he reported that Hazan solicited prostitutes for casino visitors in the resort city of Burgas, though many details of the case came to light after Hazan sued Segal for libel.

      https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:f5QbieJMvvoJ:https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/1.749074%3F__twitter_impression%3Dtrue+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=nz&client=firefox-b

  19. Frank Macskasy 19
    27 December 2017 at 2:24 pm

    Now the Israeli Ambassador wants to talk with Lorde to “persuade” her to change her mind.

    Once again, we see someone refusing to accept that “no means no”.

  20. SPC 20
    27 December 2017 at 4:22 pm

    Artists and entertainment industry executives have formed a group opposed to the boycott of Israel.

    It has called itself the creative community for peace (presumably there is a similar academic organisation etc).

    https://www.creativecommunityforpeace.com/entertainment-industry-group-responds-to-lordes-israel-cancellation/

  21. Red Tussock 21
    29 December 2017 at 6:48 am

    When the world is left leaderless by lack of action of any merit then why should that free world follow a greedy fool blindly?. How profound it is that the courage of a young NZ artist to support a UN resolution should bring such vitriolic outcry …. perhaps the courageous free people of the world are finding their voice, and choose to acknowledge those that are not free, are not in a place of safety, and are ignored for the sake of a rabid right wing oligarchy. When the many find their courage to resist, what then the strength of the gilded halls of a greedy few.

  22. Policy Parrot 22
    29 December 2017 at 11:11 am

    This fallacy trotted out by the usual suspects that “the situation is complicated”, “anti-semite”, and “Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East” – is piffle.

    It does not excuse in any way the responsibility of the Israeli government to get ready for peace under the auspices of the internationally endorsed 1993 Oslo Peace Plan.

    – i.e. Hand over the West Bank to a functioning Palestinian Authority.

    – Remove all settlements (as they are illegal); with the proviso that some border adjacent settlements may become part of a mutually endorsed territory swap. Those settlers that refuse to go, simply come under the jurisdiction of the PA.

    – Eventually allow the PA to control its own land and sea borders. In the meantime, hand over border and customs revenues to the PA as directed by the UN.

    – Encourage measures/plans that bind together the two divided territories of the West Bank and Gaza, and help promote the development of a functional nation-state.

    – Develop an agreed anti-terrorism authority with the Palestinians, that crimes committed against the Israeli state or its citizens from the territory of Palestine, be apprehended by PA police/paramilitaries (not the Israeli army), and that defendants be entitled to due process. This process could only begin once Israel becomes a realistic partner for peace, and not while Palestinian citizens have a legitimate right to resist occupation of the post-1967 territories.

    – Develop a daily/twice daily handover process for the holy sites, and the holy sites themselves to have their own small addition security appointed by an international partner.

    • SPC 22.1
      29 December 2017 at 3:46 pm

      1.

      2. Sure some land swap (see 4). My view is that settlements remaining in the West Bank should become part of the Palestine area (where they have paid compensation to land owners and there is no negative economic impact on the neighbourhood or compensation offered for this also).

      3. The idea of phased in (and or) shared sovereignty is the right way for negotiations to go – the border revenue should be collected on behalf of the UN and handed onto the PA already.

      4. A sovereign or co-sovereign transport route, road and rail, maybe internet cable, is the thing. Something to seek in the land swap negotiations (2), about all Israel has of worth to offer.

      5.

      +6. The right of return could become a right of return to become Palestinian citizens, with a Palestinian right to seek work in Israel (and those with historic land in Israel also able to seek residence (albeit with Palestinian passports) if they have work.

      +7. Jerusalem, undivided but as a capital for both nations. Thus co-sovereignty, this would make the issue of borders in this area (expand the Jerusalem zone) much easier – given Israel wants to include land around Jerusalem within Israel.

  23. greywarshark 23
    1 January 2018 at 3:13 pm

    Ad
    That is a good support for Lorde and no doubt needed as the Israeli lobby are so used to getting everything they want, or else they will run over you with a bulldozer.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/aug/27/rachel-corrie-death-israel-verdict
    https://rachelcorriefoundation.org/rachel
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachel_Corrie

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