And We’ll be Reich Back …

81 comments on “And We’ll be Reich Back … ”

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1. mickysavage 1

   26 July 2018 at 7:40 pm

   A couple of comments about the Free speech thingy.

   The Court has invited Auckland Council to seek costs against them. You don’t engage the Court processes unless you are confident about your case.

   And if they are looking for a really good case there is a young woman Renae Maihi who would appreciate a little help.

   https://thestandard.org.nz/givealittle-legal-fund-set-up-for-renae-maihi-for-defence-against-bob-jones-claim/
2. Morrissey 2

   26 July 2018 at 7:52 pm

   I’ve heard of the Third Reich but these crass Canadians and their clueless Kiwi compañeros constitute something infinitely sadder: the Third Rate Reich.
   • mickysavage 2.1

     26 July 2018 at 8:00 pm

     😀
   • marty mars 2.2

     26 July 2018 at 8:09 pm

     Nice – good one.
3. The Fairy Godmother 3

   26 July 2018 at 8:05 pm

   I kinda think it would be fun to stand outside in peaceful protest singing kymbaya my lord, we shall overcome etc. Would be great if the singers drowned them out.
4. marty mars 4

   26 July 2018 at 8:08 pm

   Probably some anti haters will get tickets and tell other protesters and organise a fitting welcome to these people and their fawning sycophantic wankmates.
5. One Two 5

   26 July 2018 at 8:15 pm

   Leave them to it…

   Accept that this stuff exists…

   Accept you can’t stop it…and should not spend energy trying to…or thinking of ways to stop it…

   Improve your own self…spread sincere emotions in your sphere of influence…

   Then it goes away…
   • Kat 5.1

     26 July 2018 at 8:18 pm

     Om………………………
   • Tricledrown 5.2

     27 July 2018 at 9:54 am

     Yavol mein dumkof.
     Hitler Rose to power because everyone was to scared to shut him down.
     These weasels keep pushing the boundaries of free speech.
     Then nech minute they ascend to power, and no more free speech.
     Hatred and divisiness is what they purvey.
     If we just roll over and let them away we are complicit.
     • SaveNZ 5.2.1

       27 July 2018 at 2:51 pm

       Palestine, Cruxifixing your enemy’s teenage son aka Saudi, Yemen, Syria, harvesting body organs from prisoners in China, torture from the US and their alliances to political prisoners… there’s plenty of Nazi like acts going on as we speak, but somehow all this tyranny happening now with little condemnation of the perpetrators, seems to have found a great distraction by a couple of nobodies with a T-shirt saying key words to flip out MSM.

       You are allowed to have a personal point of view… but some people aka the above human rights abuses have gone further than that… but not much liberal outcry for the real acts… in some cases Labourite liberals helping them aka about Corbyn /anti semitic so they can grovel to power interests while having something easy to manufacture for MSM…

       yawn, even in OZ people like Pauline Hanson are irrelevant.

       Also Isn’t CHCH the home of the neo nazis, so the pair are going to the wrong city to talk, apart from that, it is just a publicity stunt.
     • One Two 5.2.2

       27 July 2018 at 4:21 pm

       You’re welcome to roll over and feel like you’ve been complicit…you would be incorrect…but that’s not an issue…

       Or you can take direct action and have actually been complicit in that event and the negative outcomes which happen next…

       I take a different approach ….. as I’ve outlined..
       • McFlock 5.2.2.1

         27 July 2018 at 4:26 pm

         lol you take no approach.

         You just pretend it’s not your problem.

         Niemöller had a thing or two to say about how that worked out for him.
     • cleangreen 5.2.3

       27 July 2018 at 7:28 pm

       Tricledrown; – we dont have free speech today no mind so they wont change anything.
       “Just let it go Michael” (credit to Vogel bread advert.)
   • marty mars 5.3

     27 July 2018 at 5:45 pm

     I spose if youre not aware and thetefore giving no energy to it then in reality it doesn’t exist subjectively for you. A bit like hearing of some atrocity which before hand you didnt know about and thetefore expended no energy on. But if you have to expend energy to continue to not notice the thing then, well, the more you pretend it isn’t a thing the more it becomes a thing. I find acceptance a good way but in moderation – it is what it is and resistance against it is invigorating and energizing and activating. It builds self esteem, self belief and community, trust and courage. It creates eddies of complexity that non resistance just cannot do. So, for me, I trust my heart, my intuition and instinct and sometimes I lie back and flow and sometimes I turn around and forge against the current. Contrast brother, contrast – it sets us free imo.
     • One Two 5.3.1

       27 July 2018 at 6:41 pm

       Hi Marty

       For me, awareness is part of life. ..without awareness practicing mindfulness would become lessened to an extent IMO…i do choose where to put energy….taking all comers is not an option….although the approach can be similar anyway. ..

       Really enjoyed your comment Marty…

       Contrast for sure. ..brother. ..

       Go well
6. Cinny 6

   26 July 2018 at 8:19 pm

   One would have thought a private venue is always more appropriate for S&M. JS 😉
7. Jenny 7

   26 July 2018 at 8:20 pm

   It seems a strange reversal.

   Have the Hate Speech Coalition delved into their $50 thousand war chest to pay these monetised fascists to come back?
   • corodale 7.1

     27 July 2018 at 9:38 am

     Naah, they pull it from the crests of the poor using QE, it’s an orthodox banking thing. Hang on, where we still talking about the Swiss?
8. Roy 8

   26 July 2018 at 8:26 pm

   Oh, you have to pay? Then no thanks. You’d have to be mighty keen. In fact, I’m bored of them already.
9. paul andersen 9

   26 July 2018 at 8:50 pm

   I call bullshit on the secret venue line. these clowns need public outrage so they can play the victim. IGNORE THEM, or laugh at them, but DO NOT PROTEST, you only give them the tv time they crave.
   • Glenn McAllister 9.1

     27 July 2018 at 12:51 pm

     I’m tempted to go along just to see what all the fuss is about. The protesters and the attendees will probably be more interesting than the speakers to be honest.
10. Chris T 10

    26 July 2018 at 8:53 pm

    Pretty funny

    Bad luck Goff

    Your playing the countries chief censor and moral guardian on the job paid for by the rate payer failed.
    • tsmithfield 10.1

      26 July 2018 at 9:31 pm

      Yes. It seems coincidental that the Free Speech Coalition decided to defer the argument about health and safety until later in the year, and then immediately afterwards a new venue is announced.

      The sequence of events suggests that the FSC may have been aware of the new arrangements and hence didn’t feel any urgency to continue with the case at this point.
    • SPC 10.2

      26 July 2018 at 9:56 pm

      Given their practice to use private venues and leave notice of the location late, it’s a possibility that seeking a council venue was a means to secure publicity.
      • Chris T 10.2.1

        26 July 2018 at 10:04 pm

        If it was it worked
        • Johnr 10.2.1.1

          27 July 2018 at 8:31 am

          They probably had some Masonic lodge booked way before
      • David Mac 10.2.2

        27 July 2018 at 8:32 am

        Yep, population architecture is a hobby for these people. Their primary modus operandi is the creation of shit storms.

        Would 4 weeks or 24 hours venue notification kick up more of a hornet’s nest? These jokers will know, looks like 24 hours is best.
11. SPC 11

    26 July 2018 at 9:53 pm

    Intending to be “rich back” in Canada, having milked their free publicity.
12. Dennis Frank 12

    27 July 2018 at 8:07 am

    Guyon Espiner just hosted a discussion of this with the leftist protestor Morse & the rightist lawyer Franks. Well, he tried, but the leftist hysteria syndrome provoked her into talking over the top of both males whenever possible.

    Franks, on behalf of the FSC, clarified that they hadn’t withdrawn their legal action against the council, just the urgent part of it. He didn’t seem much interested in the views of the Canadians, but thought it extremely important that their side of the issues had a right to be heard as part of democracy.

    Hard to argue with that, but she tried anyway. Her logic was that anything they said was automatically hate speech so they had no right to speak. No court has provided a legal basis for her opinion. She’s just emoting her subjective take on the Human Rights Act, and asserting her opinion as if it were fact. The more the left try and spin their sectarian view into a misrepresentation of public opinion, the more disgusted with them the public will get. Nobody likes others insulting their intelligence.
    • Ross 12.1

      27 July 2018 at 8:44 am

      This would be the same Valerie Morse who was convicted of burning the flag during a dawn service near the Cenotaph, and then fought tooth and nail to have her conviction overturned on the basis of…Bill of Rights Act and freedom of expression. Too funny.

      http://www.medialawjournal.co.nz/?p=484
      • D'Esterre 12.1.1

        27 July 2018 at 10:21 pm

        Ross: “…then fought tooth and nail to have her conviction overturned on the basis of…Bill of Rights Act and freedom of expression.”

        Oh god yes, I remember that case. Neatly exemplifies the illiberalism of much of the “liberal” left.

        Wasn’t she known for getting her kit off, in protests of various sorts, back in the day?
    • Cinny 12.2

      27 July 2018 at 9:47 am

      I wonder how much this will cost us tax payers, for the police needed at this gig?

      In aussie….

      “Organisers of the Canadian’s speaking tour are reportedly being charged almost $68,000 for a large police presence at the event, which authorities fear could draw violent protesters.”

      “It comes days after it emerged that organisers of alt-right mouthpiece Milo Yiannopoulos’ Melbourne event have so far refused to cough up the $50,000 bill for extra police resources used after violent protests broke out at his show last year.”

      https://www.theage.com.au/politics/victoria/far-right-mouthpiece-lauren-southern-hit-with-hefty-police-bill-20180719-p4zsis.html
      • indiana 12.2.1

        27 July 2018 at 10:02 am

        That article only proves that the invoice is being sent to the wrong people.
      • cleangreen 12.2.2

        27 July 2018 at 7:36 pm

        Cinny,

        We should look at the ‘cost of the police action against the oil conference and TPPA conferences’ to keep the protestors apart fromm those forums, and they that had mega security provided by our police then while under the National Government administration.

        Pleanty of times the government has used our taxes to pay for police to protect their forum attendees.
        • Cinny 12.2.2.1

          27 July 2018 at 8:23 pm

          That’s a really good point CG.
        • Naki man 12.2.2.2

          27 July 2018 at 9:20 pm

          “Pleanty of times the government has used our taxes to pay for police to protect their forum attendees.”

          Yep i suggest the police send the bill to the protesters
    • Tricledrown 12.3

      27 July 2018 at 10:01 am

      Dumb Fascist.
      Bullying the left by using lots of money and legal action to protect the rights of neo Fascists.
      Who want to take away the freedom of speech.
      This is bullying a right wing policy to keep the peasants in their place.
    • Lucy 12.4

      27 July 2018 at 10:42 am

      Okay just stop-watched the interview
      Valerie Morse talked for a total of 146 seconds + (interruption of 6 seconds and 10 second free for all at end)
      Guyon Espiner talked for 151 seconds (with introduction and wrap up)
      Stephen Franks talked for 164 seconds + (interruption of 8 seconds and 10 second free for all at end)
      There was 3 incidence of talking over the top 1 by Morse at 4.40 which was shut down by Guyon after 3 seconds. One at 6:12 where Stephen talked over the top which was 8 seconds and one at the end where everyone was talking over everyone with Franks calling Morse a liar which lead to the end of the interview. So Valerie spoke less than Stephen and Guyon. If you are listening with men ears she was over speaking as the standard for women to speak enough is a ratio of 1:3. She was also talked over twice by both men and talked over Stephen twice, but this comes across as her talking over the top whenever possible?
      • Dennis Frank 12.4.1

        27 July 2018 at 10:56 am

        Excellent work, Lucy! I’ll take your accuracy for granted & agree I overstated my critique accordingly. My perception, not reality.
    • D'Esterre 12.5

      27 July 2018 at 9:50 pm

      Dennis Frank: “…but the leftist hysteria syndrome provoked her into talking over the top of both males whenever possible.”

      Yeah, we heard that interview. Morse did herself and the cause no favours; she didn’t have any kind of argument beyond: “It’s all hate speech”. Both of us ended up shouting at her to shut UP!

      Franks, by contrast, was calm and measured. He kept his cool when Morse talked over him.
13. mauī 13

    27 July 2018 at 8:50 am

    Well we let Mr Tamaki and Hilary speak in this country. I can’t see a great deal of difference really.
    • Ross 13.1

      27 July 2018 at 8:53 am

      And in the late 80s we allowed holocaust denier David Irving to speak publicly here. Some commenters here might be too young to remember 🙂
      • D'Esterre 13.1.1

        27 July 2018 at 10:29 pm

        Ross: “And in the late 80s we allowed holocaust denier David Irving to speak publicly here.”

        I don’t recall that, though I was certainly old enough. In my own defence, I had other things to think about at that stage, which may explain why I’ve forgotten it. I certainly remember him being refused entry here in the early noughties. I supported that decision then; looking back now, I think it’d have been better to have let him in.
14. Brian 14

    27 July 2018 at 9:01 am

    Don’t protest, don’t give them the oxygen. If the thing is ignored it will simply fade away, they will struggle for traction in NZ anyway and will only be preaching to the already converted. Protest will just shove them into the limelight. Ignore.
    • McFlock 14.1

      27 July 2018 at 12:59 pm

      In the meantime these posters and leaflets are being distributed in dunedin.

      One might think that it’s a big call to connect this with the aryan-canadian-crypto-fascist-duo, but the slogan on the posters looks awfully familiar…
    • paul andersen 14.2

      27 July 2018 at 3:20 pm

      yes brian, unlike coachroachs, these bugs thrive on sunlight and oxygen.
15. Philj 15

    27 July 2018 at 11:26 am

    Who benefits from this? The MSM. they are the main beneficiaries. They are the news manufacturers. They can make a sewage farm out of a single turd.
16. veutoviper 16

    27 July 2018 at 11:46 am

    I in no way support Southern and Molyneux views, but quite frankly, NZ has been played from woe to go in this PR exercise of cat and mouse.

    That is what it has been – a PR exercise where NZ (whether it be Goff, Trotter and friends in the Free Speech Coalition, those who supported the Coalition financially, the msm in making assumptions that the visit was off etc etc) has fallen for it hook, line and sinker.

    Australia was a little less naive. While there were hold-ups etc in granting visas, there was no banning them from certain venues (in public anyway) and the publicity etc that this resulted in here in NZ.

    Yes, the Victoria police have presented an invoice of c$68K for security in Melbourne. Yes, there have been protests at each of the venues to date – Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide – and more are likely in Sydney on Saturday, and possibly in Brisbane on Sunday in their final Australian appearance.

    The Melbourne event was well covered by the Australian media, the second event in Perth less so (Chelsea FC were in town for a friendly match) ; and last Tuesday’s event in Adelaide there was little media coverage. Southern actually went outside to face off with the small number of protesters – presumably to provoke coverage (IMHO says cynical me).

    There has been little mention of the numbers attending each event to date. Without giving any indication of the overall capacity of the venues etc, according to the Axiomatic website this morning:
    Sydney early admission tickets (A$99) and Meet and Greet tickets (A$199) are sold out – https://axiomatic.events/stefan-molyneux-lauren-southern-live-in-sydney/

    Brisbane Meet and Greet (A$199) are sold out but all other types are still available
    – https://axiomatic.events/stefan-molyneux-lauren-southern-live-in-brisbane/

    Originally, the website showed the same ticket structure and prices for Auckland as for the Australian venues, but these have now changed to a slightly different structure – and some different prices.

    In Auckland, there is no early screening of Southern’s Farmlands documentary ($15) at 6 pm. The event is shown as taking place from 8pm – 10.30pm, with doors opening at 7.30pm, although VIP Meet and Greet ticket holders (40 only) get to do so back stage for 60 mins before the event – presumably from 7pm.

    Despite the current exchange rate of NZD = AUD0.92 or thereabouts, General Admission and Early Admission tickets are $20 more than in Australia at NZD99 and NZD129 respectively. There are no Meet and Greet tickets (were AUD199) but VIP Meet and Greet tickets are $200 less than in Australia at NZD299 (vs AUD499). Dinner with Southern and Molyneux is the same at $749.

    https://axiomatic.events/stefan-molyneux-and-lauren-southern-live-in-auckland/

    Not being an Aucklander, I don’t know if any of that gives any clues as to the venue.

    Personally I really hope everyone just ignores it* – no protests, no coverage etc. Are there any other big events on in Auckland on Aug 3?

    * Yes, you may call me a hypocrite** after writing all of the above and not ignoring it myself! LOL

    ** But not a Stalinist …
    • Dennis Frank 16.1

      27 July 2018 at 12:17 pm

      That info is helpful, actually. If I still lived in Ak I’d go out of curiosity, but having to pay that much tells us that they’re playing to a wealthy crowd. Interesting that the Oz gigs sold out, eh? Gives us a glimpse into the sector of society that welcomes the reassurance they seem to offer. Personally, I think their `it’s okay to be white’ thing is banal but others clearly feel threatened by pc-conformism.

      White liberal guilt is an interesting pathology: it shows us how biological our feelings are. There’s no rational basis for a pakeha Aotearoan to accept responsibility for what the settler govt & their troops did here in the 19th century. Our great-grandparents weren’t yet born at the time. Pan-generational guilt is a bullshit scheme and the leftists promoting it should be ashamed of their idiocy. Anyway, you can see why conservatives get spooked by the bullshit, enough to feel the need to organise a countering trend. These binary forces in politics are natural (but irritating).
      • Carolyn_Nth 16.1.1

        27 July 2018 at 12:28 pm

        2 of my great grand parents arrived in NZ in 1862. The land wars continued to 1872. They, and their descendants (including me) benefited from the land grants they got, and the colonialist values that contributed to developing NZ. One of their sons married a Brit woman who was overtly racist, according to my perception of her.

        Other grandparents arrived in NZ in early 1900s, contributing to the British cultural colonisation of NZ. My parents were socialised into some of the same colonialist values of their parents.

        It has everything to do with the family values I grew up with. I acknowledge that I have benefited from the activities of my forebears that have caused hardship to tangata whenua over the last couple of centuries.
        • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.1

          27 July 2018 at 12:48 pm

          Hmm. My Frankish ancestors came out from Germany on a sailing ship in 1875, had a farm in Taranaki according to the father of my father, so I asked him what happened to it and he said it was stolen by a clever lawyer. So I suppose I ought to have inherited a cultural bias against pakeha lawyers. Possibly it was on confiscated Maori land but all I know is he went to primary school in Huiakama.

          I think I can concede that technically, I was born into a situation of relative privilege due to dispossession of indigenous folk here but when you’ve lived a life of grim struggle you tend not to see it that way. My support for redress of historical wrongs to Maori was never motivated by guilt. The twin principles of personal responsibility and social accountability constitute the relevant ethics.
          • Carolyn_Nth 16.1.1.1.1

            27 July 2018 at 2:44 pm

            Dennis, it’s you who are using the word “guilt”. Where does that come from in relation to the on-going legacy of inequalities as a result of British Imperialism?
            • Dennis Frank 16.1.1.1.1.1

              27 July 2018 at 3:19 pm

              I used it in my comment (12.17) in relation to pc-conformism because it seemed to be the driving psychology behind the syndrome when it first emerged in the media a couple of decades back. Unfortunately the entire profession of psychology went into a collective funk after the eighties. Not sure why. It would help if they would emerge from defeatism and contribute psychoanalysis to public debate of these syndromes that drive political behaviour.
              • Carolyn_Nth …

                27 July 2018 at 3:30 pm

                Well, that guilt motivation is not something I accept. And I’m not that keen on psycho-analysis, which is based on all sorts of patriarchal and imperialist assumptions – even while feminists and some black theorists have embraced it.

                And what the hell is “pc-conformism”? Now it would be interesting to trace the motivations behind that kind of attitude.

                For me,it’s about looking at where Māori and Pacific people are now culturally, and in the social and political context, and seeing how that contains elements of the legacy of colonisation.
                • Dennis Frank …

                  27 July 2018 at 3:51 pm

                  I use pc-conformism as a useful label for the type of group-think leftists use to bind themselves into politically-correct stances. So it’s a behavioural psychology at play in the culture wars. Wouldn’t be quite so toxic if the proponents refrained from projecting their collective delusions onto everyone else.
                  • McFlock …

                    27 July 2018 at 3:55 pm

                    Which is all an elaborate house of cards that falls down if “guilt” has nothing to do with a simple recognition that the colonialism of yesteryear still has deep consequences for people to this day.
                    • corodale …

                      27 July 2018 at 8:01 pm

                      Colonialism is an impulse of endless continuum. Make peace with yourself and consider, what is the positive anti-thesis of guilt? eg. How might personal feelings of gratitude serve humanity?

                      True privilage is having the capacity to share and pass-on a positive state of being – a gift that’s worth working hard to acquire.
                    • Carolyn_Nth …

                      27 July 2018 at 8:17 pm

                      corodale, it’s not me or McFlock that are claiming feelings of guilt. If you and DF have those feelings, that’s for you to sort out.

                      Some people recognise their privileges, and just have empathy for those whose lives have been damaged by institutionalised arrangements.

                      Exactly who, or what groups are “projecting their collective delusions”?
              • Hanswurst …

                27 July 2018 at 10:09 pm

                Often when I’ve seen terms like “pc-conformism”, or its stablemates such as ‘groupthink’ or ‘following the sheep’, it has been to denigrate the ideas of those who don’t conform to values that a dominant culture perceives as common sense. In a lot of your comments, you seem to be making a raft of assumptions that you see as being just how the world obviously works, and attributing simplistic, uniform motives to all who disagree with you. Maybe the leftist hive mind only exists in your mind…
      • veutoviper 16.1.2

        27 July 2018 at 2:56 pm

        Interesting that the Oz gigs sold out, eh?

        We don’t know whether any of the Oz gigs sold out in totality, Dennis – simply that some types of tickets have sold out for the Sydney and Brisbane events over the weekend.

        I did not watch very closely for the earlier events in Melbourne, Perth and Adelaide but do have some recall that again some ticket types also sold out for those events.

        But the ticket prices certainly cater to the wealthy end of the market. I do recall seeing something in passing (but cannot find it again) in the Australian media that ticket sales/attendance had been lower that expected/wanted.

        But over the years, my perceptions have been that some Australians (including some who are relatives of mine, sad to say) are much more white racists than equivalent NZers. IMHO.
        • paul andersen 16.1.2.1

          27 July 2018 at 3:29 pm

          every good promoter everywhere always “sells out” sometimes in both ways. .its good PR to say your event sells out, easy to fudge what actually sells out, six seats on the stage, photo ops, or 20,000 general seats. what would be a good wheeze ,would be to publicly photo(all in the name of free speech and openness) all entrants. nothing to hide ,nothing to fear, isnt that the line?
          • veutoviper 16.1.2.1.1

            28 July 2018 at 11:25 am

            I agree, paul, that saying tickets were selling fast or some types were sold out is often a promotion tactic – and I suspect very much so with this lot.

            I should have been more specific in my wording and said the some types of tickets were “being reported as” or “supposedly” sold out.

            I checked the sites this morning and the Sydney and Brisbane are the same in respect of ticket types reported as sold out except that VIP Meet and Greet tickets ($499) for today’s event in Sydney are also now supposedly sold out – all 10 of them! The number of AUD749 tickets available for dinner with them in Sydney are still reported as 14 – no change for many days.
17. r0b 17

    27 July 2018 at 2:17 pm

    Long read but well worth it:

    https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/jul/26/the-free-speech-panic-censorship-how-the-right-concocted-a-crisis
    • te reo putake 17.1

      27 July 2018 at 2:44 pm

      Excellent read, rOb. The new right have used the tactic of turning the tables on those who oppose bigotry by calling them bigots quite effectively. In a world where ignorance is king, concepts like empathy, solidarity and understanding are mere flickering flames.
      • Enough is Enough 17.1.1

        27 July 2018 at 2:52 pm

        I think most, if not all, people in the debate are absolutely fine with people opposing bigotry.

        The question is whether those bigoted people are entitled to express their bigoted views.

        If we can’t defeat those bigoted people with sound argument and reason then perhaps our argument isn’t that sound.

        What we can’t do is defeat them by attempting to muzzle them.
        • McFlock 17.1.1.1

          27 July 2018 at 3:36 pm

          Sound arguments only work against people interested in sound arguments.

          People who monetise discord aren’t interested in sound arguments.
          • greywarshark 17.1.1.1.1

            27 July 2018 at 9:33 pm

            McFlock
            You put that truly. Bigoted arguments sit nicely in a pub with a beer or sloshing back something stronger. How many times is one forced to listen to spurious arguments, and appeals to fake ideas and authority to justify some position of power and authority?
    • Carolyn_Nth 17.2

      27 July 2018 at 3:01 pm

      Thanks, r0b.

      Very interesting article. Basically saying that conservatives are using the appeal to “free speech” to paper over the cracks in the crisis in conservatism – when the appeal to “freedom of the market” is losing traction.

      Also it’s an interesting observation that young people are tending to turn leftwards, partly because more are university educated; while the mainstream media tend to favour business and freedom of the market.

      Also useful is the argument, that, in the digital age, speech as never been freer – it’s getting listened to that is the issue – so many use the claims to victimisation (restriction from one platform) as fuel to get mainstream media attention.

      And so it is with the Canadian pair. They are provocateur’s aiming to stir things aup, claim victimhood, etc, in order to get mainstream attention. It never really has been about freedom of speech, but about getting their poisonous views heard and normalised in the mainstream.
    • Dennis Frank 17.3

      27 July 2018 at 3:07 pm

      Wow, this media analyst is so good he makes other Guardian writers also-ran.

      “Different norms and cultural expectations are colliding all the time, as doubt is cast on the authority of “mainstream” media and democratic institutions. The claim that certain people are being silenced is often a convenient spin on the way this messier, less-predictable world means that prominent voices have lost authority. In this context, the defence of free speech promises to restore a traditional cultural order.”

      This made me sceptical at first, since the notion that any exercise of free speech can restore traditional cultural order this late in the game is obviously a non-starter, but he goes on to explain how it emerges as a general motivation among conservatives. I think his rationale stands up to critical evaluation – and it serves to explain the FSC.
18. tsmithfield 18

    27 July 2018 at 4:29 pm

    Shrieking “racist” or “Nazi” isn’t helping much. Rather, I think it is important to examine and criticise the message rather than the messenger.

    I have several thoughts about the issues raised by Southern et al.

    I agree with her in some respects but disagree in other major areas.

    Multiculturalism is a huge problem in Europe at the moment. But this is due to the flood of immigrants coming in and the lack of capacity for them to be managed in a manner that enables them to be integrated into society.

    Therefore that there are huge problems is not surprising.

    But Southern’s answer to the problem (banning immigrants) is overly simplistic.

    However, NZ doesn’t have the same flood of immigrants coming in. We are in a much better position to help immigrants integrate into our society. So, Southern doesn’t really have much of an axe to grind here.

    So, I think we need to be evaluating our methods for integrating immigrants who are fleeing various conflicts. For instance, a lot of these people are probably traumatised, and need psychological help. But are we providing that help for these people? Are they aware of the cultural expectations in our society (i.e. our bill of rights)?
    • KJT 18.1

      27 July 2018 at 8:29 pm

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/93710597/Migrants-coming-into-New-Zealand-at-a-faster-rate-of-knots-compared-to-other-countries-figures

      Migrants are piling into New Zealand at nearly twice the rate than in Australia and more than three times the rate of the UK, figures suggest.

      Parliamentary research, obtained by Labour, shows New Zealand took in, on average 14.7 people for every 1000 in our population during the year to June 30, 2016.

      Of the developed countries New Zealand most often compares itself to, Australia took in the next largest amount at a rate of 7.5 per 1000 population.
      Labour leader Andrew Little and immigration spokesman Iain Lees-Galloway plan to cut immigration by up to 30,000 if in …
      David Unwin

      Labour leader Andrew Little and immigration spokesman Iain Lees-Galloway plan to cut immigration by up to 30,000 if in Government. New Zealand needed a “breather” to invest in infrastructure that could keep up with rapid population growth.

      The United Kingdom – which was currently navigating post-Brexit negotiations arguably brought about by growing discontent over high rates of immigration – stood at a rate 5.1 per 100 population the year prior.

      Germany.
      https://www.indexmundi.com/germany/net_migration_rate.html
      Net migration rate: 1.5 migrant(s)/1,000 population (2017 est.)
      https://www.asylumineurope.org/reports/country/germany/statistics

      We have raised our population by a fifth in ten years. Only countries in the front line of refugees, like Syria, were remotely comparable.
      • WILD KATIPO 18.1.1

        27 July 2018 at 10:15 pm

        Why is it,… that in this country with Polynesians representing some of the worst statistics regarding poverty and incarcerations,… we continue to import predominately Chinese and Indian immigrants?

        Why is it,… that in the 1960’s we thought that it was OK to have Pacific Islanders and Maoris from rural backgrounds work and being designated to menial jobs in factory’s?… yet we never went further in the neo liberal paradigm and advocated that those same workers, – and their children , – were deemed worthy of investing in to stem the brain drain to Australia?

        650,000 New Zealanders call Australia ‘ home ‘ temporarily.

        It is a constant source of black humor that we now import absolute foreigners with no concept of what this country’s history involves, who have NO interest whatsoever of that history or that intermarried amalgamated culture involves… simply to fill the cannon fodder ranks of those elitists in the business sectors whose demand’s are for ‘more menial workers’…

        Do you not see how we as a country have been played royally by the business elite?

        And given dubious legitimacy by the avarice filled and duplicity of the advent of neo liberalism by Roger Douglas and his fellow travelers, Ruth Richardson ?

        So who are the business ‘ elite’?

        Well , mainly the former Business Roundtable,… now calling themselves the NZ Initiative.

        New Right Fight – Who are the New Right?
        http://www.newrightfight.co.nz/pageA.html

        Oh ,… and a little bit of gratuitous family pride just for the hell of it.

        The CLAN GUNN – YouTube
        Video for the clan gunn song you tube▶ 4:35
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quxObY47ZPw
19. WILD KATIPO 19

    27 July 2018 at 5:21 pm

    If they do come, set up a large screen and repeatedly play this :

    PROPAGANDA FILM THAT OUTRAGED HITLER — THE LAMBETH …
    Video for lambeth walk hitler▶ 2:24
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjbYl3LgTHA
20. Carolyn_Nth 20

    27 July 2018 at 5:39 pm

    New twitter ID:

    Tāmaki Anti-Fascist Action (TAFA)
    @AntiFascistAkl

    When the time comes, every one of us has the responsibility to stand up against fascism. That time is now. Do your bit by coming along to the peaceful vigil on Friday the 3rd. More details coming soon.
21. Paul Martinson 21

    28 July 2018 at 8:12 am

    If hate speech was real then this post and most of comments would be hate speech too. That’s the irony and why free speech is so important. Even the anti fascists can’t see that they’re just as intolerant and bigotted as those they oppose.
    • te reo putake 21.1

      28 July 2018 at 8:22 am

      Yeah, nah, Paul.

      No question I’m intolerant of bigots, as are most on the left. Molyneux and Southern are professional racists, so they are not at the same level as your drunk uncle having a whinge about the maaaaris. They make money by promoting racism and need to be seen for what they are and what they represent.

      As I said in an earlier post, there is no such thing as free speech. Honesty may be the best policy, but it usually comes at a cost.
    • Ad 21.2

      28 July 2018 at 8:38 am

      1,000+ comments at TS on this topic of how to stop two speakers coming into New Zealand.

      By a long, long way the most commented topic this year, with the worst child poverty one can imagine, streets full of homeless, awash with drugs, higher taxes for lower services, doing fuck all about climate change or conservation, and completely directionless government. It’s the very definition of distracted meaningless flailing.

      This “free” speech remains free because it has cost the left nothing – nothing except their inability to uphold fundamental rights under the most minor of provocations. Neither the left-green government nor the activist left can decide whether the best thing is to deny them, ignore them, or get ready to punch them.
22. tsmithfield 22

    28 July 2018 at 9:06 am

    I think the left are losing badly at the moment.

    That is because the likes of Southern et al. frame themselves as being very reasonable, fair, and unflappable when confronted by protestors and those on the left with opposing views.

    On the other hand, Southern et al. are able to frame those on the left as intolerant, totalitarian, and unhinged. The left provide plenty of opportunities for Southern et al. to put up video to prove their point.

    What is needed is for the left to put up people willing to debate logically with Southern et al. and undermine their logic.

    Here is an example of this:

    Southern argues against multiculturism as in setting up distinct cultures within a dominant culture. Many of us would share concerns for example, about Sharia law being established in NZ amongst minority groups if that meant undermining womens and other minority rights.

    So, her pointing out the problems isn’t such an issue. It is her solution of banning immigration of minorities where she becomes unhinged. So, being able to argue these points logically is how to defeat her.

    For instance, in her Farmlands documentary, she praises the community of Orania in South Africa, which is a white example of the philosophy she opposes.

    The way I would frame the debate with her is that if things are as bad for whites in South Africa as her documentary suggests, would she accept that the perceived need for Orania to exist would diminish if whites were better accepted in South Africa? It would be difficult to argue to the contrary I expect.

    Then the point could be made then is that if Westerners were more accepting of minority groups, would they feel the need so much to set up their own distinct culture groups?
23. Jenny 23

    28 July 2018 at 1:58 pm

    Anecdotal accounts from visitors comparing New Zealand and Australia on race relations, are almost unanimous in declaring Australia as being much more racist than New Zealand.

    Normalising Hate Speech in Godzone

    Don Brash’s Free Speech coalition has set the precedent. The Free Speech Coalition, in letting neo-nazis and fascists know they will have a welcome here. Following close on the heels of the news that the on again off again visit of neo-nazis Molyneux and Southern is back on, It can come as no surprise that the welcome of neo-fascist views ushered in by the FSC, has led Pauline Hanson to announce that she too will be visiting New Zealand to push her own brand of hate speech, and recruit adherents Kiwi supporters to her virulent brand of racism.

    Polarising Australian politician Pauline Hanson to visit New Zealand
    Bridie Chetwin-Kelly – News Hub, July 27, 2018

    Right-wing Australian politician Pauline Hanson is being lined up to visit New Zealand for a public appearance expected to bring New Zealand’s law on freedom of speech into question again.

    Known mostly for her controversial views on immigration, she is the president of Australian populist party One Nation, which also lists anti-Islam, anti-multiculturalism and conservatism among their ideologies.
    • Jenny 23.1

      28 July 2018 at 2:06 pm

      Auckland’s Mayor Phil Goff told Newstalk ZB last week that she, like anyone else, is welcome to apply for venue hire in Auckland.

      When Pauline Hansen is turned down, which under the same criteria used to exclude Southern and Molynieux, she will be. Will the Free Speech Coalition renew their law suit against the Council?

      Or will this shower just decide to keep the money instead?

      I wonder if Whale oil will ask for his donation back?
      • Carolyn_Nth 23.1.1

        28 July 2018 at 3:24 pm

        i don’t think there’s any certainty that Auckland Council will be declined an AC venue on safety grounds.

        But now I do think I will be joining protests against these racist neo-nazi imports. I’m not keen on the likelihood of violence by a small number of protesters. But I WILL join a protest – preferably a general anti-neo-nazi one away from the venues used by these provocateurs.

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