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China independence day

Written By: - Date published: 4:17 pm, October 1st, 2019 - 91 comments
Categories: China, Economy, Free Trade, trade, us politics - Tags:

October 1st is the National Day of the People’s Republic of China.

They like to make it a big day, bigger than the United States’ July 4th. It’s called Golden Week because they all really holiday and reconnect across the country. They shop like lock forwards pack down. It’s massive.

As the 70th event, it will be a big gig. It’s on the site of the first public parade of the People’s Liberation Army with an address by Chairman Mao Zedong declaring the Republic of China formally established: Tianenmen Square.

That day is increasingly important to the rhythmic ordering of China’s dynamism. To reassert the national narrative in its full orchestrated form. Get its groove back.

Given China’s importance to us as an economy and as a people, it’s a day for us to take stock about our relationship to China as well.

The really useful thing about the Hong Kong protests that have occurred over the last three months is that they underscore that China is not some monolithic bland machine of governance and executive authority; instead it has provinces and political fault lines which need constant management (Same as us).

Another ground for constant management is Taiwan. Over the past two months, the Solomon Islands and Kiribati have reduced the number of countries formally recognizing Taiwan as a sovereign independent state down from 17 to 15. That’s a huge diplomatic win for Independence Day.

Same with the leadership. Very stable now, but … Just as we see the horizon of Putin’s rule in Russia sets up a period of instability, so too should we expect instability when Xi Jinping faces his own mortality.

There’s nothing immutable about China, no matter how forbidding it appears.

If we look back on how New Zealand’s relationship to China has changed since 1949, we trace essentially most of the modern history of New Zealand. (For a summary of the advances in Chinese society, see Linda Benson’s “China Since 1949”, to get the sweep of it).

In the late 1970s we both went through accelerated usbanisation. We came out of our shell about the same time they did in the early 1980s. In the same decade we both swiftly deregulated our economies.

As far as the eye can see, China will be the sun around which our orbit revolves. Who knows whether it’s overall good, but it’s not possible to decelerate.

Prime Minister Ardern inherits a strong diplomatic relationship whose depth and strength is tested and in doing so continues to get stronger and more mature. Fonterra’s decline, for example, simply reveals and underscores the multiplicity of our commercial, civic, diplomatic, and social engagements.

Through New Zealand’s single entity containing one third of our population and economy, Auckland is the key lens with which New Zealand engages with China.

With 7.5% of the Auckland population, ethnic Chinese bring a strong set of relationships directly from China to New Zealand’s commercial and social powerhouse. Chinese New Year, for example, is celebrated in Auckland with at least as much passion and force as Waitangi Day if not more.

For first time Chinese travelers, New Zealand ranks as highly as France, only underneath Canada and Australia as Bucket List place. China is now our most important trading partner. They take as much of our dairy, wood, meat, and seafood as we can spare.

Arguably it’s our most important diplomatic partnership, because of the way Chinese diplomacy in New Zealand successfully integrates government and local government partnerships tightly together.

Yet from 1949, to 1972 when we recognized them, they were one big Communist enemy.

China, together with Vietnam, Korea, and others, were poor nations we sent aid to. Through the 1990s, those countries have risen in wealth and power like few could have imagined. Led by China, this rise is an historic turning point in the development of humanity and has completely tilted our place in it.

After 3 years of negotiation New Zealand’s relationship really deepened with the signing of the Free Trade Agreement in April 2008. We’re one a decade into that and China grows more and more important to us, every day.

It’s Independence Day for China.

Codependence Day for New Zealand.

91 comments on “China independence day ”

  1. Peter Christchurh nz 1

    Great post. But…..

    China is an imperlist empire. Xinjiang. Xinjiang. Sichuan. Nei mongolia. This is not a country but an empire. And way more evil than the British or Roman versions. And it will fail. Eventually.

    Xinjiang is now germany 1933. And the world ignores it.ike the world ignored the halochaust. And on The Standard? Many many posters still seem to see China or communism as an answer!

    Capitalism, at least as we know it, way well fall well short, but I feel myself very fortunate to live in a country where we are at least allowed a dissenting view

    • McFlock 1.1

      Yes, but I'm not sure how long the arc of this new empire will last. The current leadership has accelerated the proccess of expansion and consolidation with oppressive zeal, but I think that contains the seeds of its own destruction.

      Unlike Germany 1933, Chinese leadership wants compliance and conformity, not extermination. They're more like the Western imperialists in that regard. Try being a US communist in the 1950s.

      On the flipside, dolt45's crowd do genuinely want some ethnicities and religions removed from the US.They might not be quite as good at it as the Chinese, but it's not for the want of trying.

      • Mark 1.1.1

        <i>do genuinely want some ethnicities and religions removed from the US.They might not be quite as good at it as the Chinese, but it's not for the want of trying. </i>

        China does not want to 'remove' minorities. Think about it. China has celebrated 70 years of communist rule. If the Chinese communists had wanted to 'remove' minorities, or worse exterminate them, surely they could have easily done this over the course of 70 years? After all are we not talking of, according to the Western media, the worse mass murderers in history?

        But no. Instead the Chinese govt tried to increase the numbers of minorities, through exemptions, or relaxations of the previous one-child policy, there was affirmative action, and huge funds poured in to develop the minority areas.

        Most minorities in China still speak their own language (bilingual education is widely available), follow their own folkways and religions to an extent that is simply unimaginable in any area under Anglo Sason colonisation, until perhaps recent decades in NZ and Canada.

        • McFlock 1.1.1.1

          While I expressed myself poorly in the bit you pasted, the Uighers and Tibetans might disagree with your over-enthusiastic response. If it were safe to do so, I mean.

        • You_Fool 1.1.1.2

          Most minorities in China still speak their own language (bilingual education is widely available),

          Lies, the communist party does it best to stamp out minority languages

    • Mark 1.2

      <i>Many many posters still seem to see China or communism as an answer! </i>

      While it is, or was. The most rapid gains in life expectancy in the first 30 years, massive reductions of illiteracy, followed by a quadrupling of spending power over just the past 20 to 25 years. Looks like it has worked for China.

      You need to consider where China was in 1949 compared to say NZ. One was the poorest country in the world (coming out of a century of foreign invasion). The other the richest. To think the same social and economic system arguably workable for a rich Western country, would work just as well for China at that time is just sheer lunacy.,

    • Mark 1.3

      <i>Xinjiang is now germany 1933 </i>

      Nah…..this is like Nazi Germany:

  2. Unicus 2

    Tthis bile must have been lifted directly from the Chinese Herald

    Its their job to sanitise Xi and his regime not The Standards

  3. observer 3

    A really strange post.

    China is a rigid dictatorship, abusing the basic human rights of many millions. It is certainly a less bad dictatorship today than in the horrific time of Mao's famines, or of the regimes that existed before 1949 (Imperial China, Western occupiers, the KMT, Japanese invasion). Most people in the PRC have food, if not freedom.

    Of course we should engage, and trade, and welcome progress when it happens. But for years NZ under successive governments has only seen dollar signs in China, and been shamefully silent on human rights. Simon Bridges is the worst offender here, but he is not the first.

    The NZ media are similarly culpable. Money talks – but it also lies.

    • 100% agree, observer.

    • Mark 3.2

      You obviously don't have a clue about China, nor have ever visited there—–they don't have elections, but have as much if not more <i>personal freedoms</i> than in New Zealand. For one they are not tied up with the sort of PC bullshit we are here in NZ.

      And they can do international travel, and travel pretty much anywhere in their own country. As for Mao, from 1940 to 1976 he almost doubled life expectancy, mortality rates, except during the great leap forward were remarkably low for a developing country of the time, and even during the great leap forward conditions, in general were no worse than pre-revolutionary China, and in other developing countries of the time.

      You should get off your moral high horse and seek truth from facts.

      • Stuart Munro. 3.2.1

        " if not more <i>personal freedoms"

        Riiight – but not the personal freedom to learn about the Tiananmen massacre, or to object to policy set by the party mandarins.

        And China is exporting this wretched system, larding its parasites into NZ's democracy until we shall never be rid of their pernicious influence.

        • Mark 3.2.1.1

          And China is exporting this wretched system, larding its parasites into NZ's democracy until we shall never be rid of their pernicious influence.

          huh? Some examples of what you mean by this.

          Where in the world has China exported this 'wretched system' which has got the life expectancy of its population to that of first world levels, in spite of still being a developing country.

          • Stuart Munro. 3.2.1.1.1

            You know of course that China is not by any means the first country to move from an impoverished status to relative international wealth. The model was Japanese, and Korea, Taiwan, and Malaysia have done it, with Vietnam moving down the same path now.

            larding its parasites into NZ's democracy

            I refer of course to Raymond Huo, 霍建强, who was obliged to step down from the Justice committee looking at foreign corruption for excluding Anne-Marie Brady. And to Jian Yang, who attended a military parade in which it was not clear whether he was present in the capacity of a New Zealand MP, or a loyal footsoldier of a foreign state. And to Zhang Yikun, who bribed the always malleable Gnats to put his colleague, one Mr Zheng, on their list.

            It is hard enough to get NZ's essentially spineless MPs to represent the people they are supposed to already without this fresh source of corruption adding to the problem.

            • Mark 3.2.1.1.1.1

              There is obviously no wrongdoing here or corruption whatsoever —if not Stuart Munro must know more than the SIS, the NZ police, Winston Peters, Jacinda Ardern, Simon Bridges, James Shaw, Andrew Little etc etc ….unless of course these institutions and people are engaged in some sort of massive conspiracy of silence.

              • Stuart Munro.

                What absolute bullshit Mark – just because someone isn't prosecuted doesn't make them innocent.

                But you've revealed your game – to lower the standard of NZ government until it can be made to do absolutely anything.

                You should be ashamed of yourself, but no doubt your superpower arrogance gives you carte blanche, at least in your mind.

                • The Al1en

                  Must be terrible to have to live in our pc bull sh!t country with fewer personal freedoms.

                  We don't even let our leader anoint themselves president for life. What the f*ck is wrong with us?

                • Mark

                  What absolute bullshit Mark – just because someone isn't prosecuted doesn't make them innocent.

                  So they are guilty then —-guilty on an innuendo – great human rights concepts eh?

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    False dichotomy.

                    Wind back the bullshit a little and recognize that spending money into a foreign democracy interferes with the rights of its citizens to be represented whether or not the current law explicitly forbids it. Legality is not and never has been the gold standard for ethics.

                    Now flip it around – suppose a kiwi suborned Xi – how would you feel about it? Cheesed off? Well so do we.

                    • Mark

                      Firstly who has suborned who? Where is your evidence for this. Again, simply innuendo here. No evidence that would stand up to any sort of scrutiny whatsoever.

                      Now consider this, the West routinely spends huge amounts of money on subverting foreign powers who do not toe the line. Not just influence, but direct intervention such as what we see in Hong Kong right now:

                      https://www.voanews.com/usa/hong-kong-activists-urge-us-lawmakers-support-protesters-and-stand-beijing

                      Now how would you, or ordinary citizenry of any Western country feel if radical protesters after smashing up the local parliament and hanging the flag of the PRC inside, bringing the main airport to a standstill for 2 days, vandalising train stations, chucking firebombs, etc …..then made regular trips to report on their activities to the National Peoples Congress of the PRC, asking for the PRC to sabotage the economy of their home nation?

                      Or does Western exceptionalism run so rampantly through your veins that you think it is acceptable in the case of it happening to China, but not to a country such as New Zealand?

                    • Mark

                      Cheesed off? Well so do we.

                      Actually most people don't give a shit. There seems to be no real interest in changing the laws around foreign donations, not even from NZ First.

                      Perhaps you should start a campaign …..better than hiding behind your computer.

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Always nice to be told what 'most people want' by a clown who clearly has no idea.

                      "the West routinely spends huge amounts"

                      We are not The West.

                      'simply innuendo'

                      Nope – if kiwis suborned Xi we'd die in a black prison. Just lying as usual, because the truth does not serve your corrupt campaign.

                      "you should start a campaign" I shouldn't have to start a campaign to make arrogant motherfuckers like you respect the laws, conventions and institutions of my country – I didn't pull this kind of shit when I was in China, because I, foolishly it seems, respected your right to self-determination. But you with your superpower arrogance think you get to shit all over our people – think again.

                      [I haven’t read the thread and I’d rather not have to, so please dial back the abuse and focus on the politics, thanks – weka]

                    • weka []

                      mod note for you above Stuart.

                    • Mark

                      Always nice to be told what 'most people want' by a clown who clearly has no idea.

                      Its a pretty easy to assume. Obviously none of the political parties see much political advantage to be gained by making a big noise about it. If it was of such huge concern to the average citizen they would. Not even Winston has said much.

                      I shouldn't have to start a campaign to make arrogant motherfuckers like you respect the laws, conventions and institutions of my country – I didn't pull this kind of shit when I was in China, because I, foolishly it seems, respected your right to self-determination. But you with your superpower arrogance think you get to shit all over our people

                      Well, Chinese and Asians in general, are among the most law abiding of all groups in the country:

                      "The Asian crime rate is 52 apprehensions per 10,000 population. Caucasians are five times higher at 254……" https://bit.ly/2nh5Lz8

                      In terms of "conventions and institutions", rich people have always made donations to political parties in the Western world, particularly the US. In NZ, Bob Jones, Owen Glenn etc have made donations to all political parties. So rich Chinese are precisely following local conventions.

                      The fact that there are no laws against foreign donations, and there does not seem to be much political momentum against such among all major parties would indicate that what the Chinese are doing is not considered to be that big a deal. Otherwise it would be outlawed.

                      my country

                      Mine too. My granddad was here early enough to experience the Napier earthquake.

                      [Corrected e-mail address]

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      @Mark

                      Frankly I think you're lying about your grandad – none of my NZ Chinese friends were particularly impressed by Beijing, much less apologists for its various oppressions.

                      The Asian crime rate is 52 apprehensions per 10,000 population. Caucasians are five times higher at 254……"

                      Crime is culturally bound – many generalizations that casuals might consider racism are statistically significant. Russian criminals are overrepresented in petroscams, Chinese in P dealing, tax fraud, and prostitution. Non-assimilating communities with language barriers are difficult to police however, so the statistics are not necessarily as favourable as you're trying to pretend. And of course one should notice that China occupies the frequent offending end of the Asian crime spectrum, down with Thailand, not up with Korea and Japan.

                      "there are no laws against foreign donations"

                      No – nor were there laws against hacking a century ago, or requirements constraining dairy pollution when 100 cows was a big farm. Law always follows problematic behaviour, and recent donations were kept secret largely because the general public do not like the practice.

                      Politicians, always looking for extra funding sources, are reluctant to turn off the tap – but the general public abhor the purchase of political influence, and the fact that you don't know that further deprecates your claim of NZ ancestry.

      • observer 3.2.2

        You want truth from facts – and then make them up.

        I certainly have visited China, several times, for work, study and pleasure. The first time was back in the 1980's, and the improved standard of living since is evident (achieved by throwing out Maoism, of course). And yes, I have studied Chinese language and read widely on Chinese history.

        Your comment is so bizarre as to make it hard to even engage. Such as:

        "They have as much if not more personal freedoms than in New Zealand."

        It is a totalitarian state. Surveillance is built into the society. If they have such freedom, why can't the citizens even do what you and I are doing now? Countless international websites are routinely blocked in the PRC, such as Google, Facebook and Twitter, etc.

        But that is a minor inconvenience compared with getting persecuted and jailed for political dissent. Are you claiming that doesn't happen?

        (if your comment was satire, then … well played, you got me. It is the only explanation I can think of).

        • Mark 3.2.2.1

          Countless international websites are routinely blocked in the PRC, such as Google, Facebook and Twitter, etc.

          The Chinese have Baidu, Wechat, youku….etc, they seem perfectly happy with that.

          We have seen the wages of Western media saturation in Hong Kong. In light of this I would say the Chinese leadership has made a perfectly wise decision to avoid the sort of chaos we see there, and defend their space to prioritise development, the economy, and living standards above everything else

          • McFlock 3.2.2.1.1

            above everything else, including freedom.

            • Mark 3.2.2.1.1.1

              Chinese are free from western brainwashing which teaches coloured people everywhere to hate themselves.

              • McFlock

                Not free from getting shot in the chest at a protest, though.

                • Mark

                  So the cop should have just let that punk take an iron bar to his head

                  • McFlock

                    They don't seem to be short of shit like tear gas, and it's arguable the cops shouldn't be stopping the protestors anyway, so your "shoot him in the chest or get brained with an iron pipe" dichotomy is a little bit one-sided.

                    • Mark

                      errr……so they should just let them run rampant smashing up key infrastructure.

                      Can you do that in NZ? Can you just march down to the local airport if you don't like something the govt is doing, and block people from checking in?

                      Most HK people, even those who participated and or supported the original protests in June are sick and tired of this very tiny fringe element that gets all the attention of the Western media. Sort of like, someone lights a fire in Aotea square….does not affect much the rest of the country.

                      Great thing is, all my rellies tell me HK is still super safe, and good hotels are about 50 NZD a night now. Flights are also super cheap, and so I'm going up in a few weeks —the wonton noodles there are the best in the world!….so I suppose I should thank these protesters…hahahahahhaa

                    • Drowsy M. Kram

                      Mark, do enjoy your inexpensive trip courtesy of that "very tiny fringe".

                      What sparked the current wave of HK protests – something to do with a change in extradition laws was it? I understand many of the protesters are relatively young, and healthy wink

                      Commenting on the claims earlier this year, the Chinese embassy told the Guardian: "The Chinese government always follows the World Health Organization's guiding principles on human organ transplant, and has strengthened its management on organ transplant in recent years."

                      https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/17/china-is-harvesting-organs-from-detainees-uk-tribunal-concludes

                    • McFlock

                      so they should just let them run rampant smashing up key infrastructure.

                      No. They should be protesting alongside. And a bonus is that their response wouldn't escalate the protest cycle.

                      You really do have a pretty simplistic outlook. Not everything is a dichotomy between “use lethal force” and “allow society to dissolve into chaos”.

                  • You_Fool

                    Most HK people, even those who participated and or supported the original protests in June are sick and tired of this very tiny fringe element that gets all the attention of the Western media.

                    Quotation needed…

    • Mark 3.3

      But for years NZ under successive governments has only seen dollar signs in China

      Not dollar signs, its not about being greedy for a new BMW or a swimming pool in the back yard. It is about the livelihood of hundreds of thousands of New Zealanders.

      Are you at risk of lining up at WINZ if the China trade goes down the gurglar? If not get off your moral high horse.

  4. You_Fool 4

    Hong Kong doesn't show a regional fault-line but a deeply disturbing insight into workings of the Chinese state. Protesters shot by police, a lack of freedom of movement, lack of understanding by those in power.

    The people of Hong Kong deserve our support, no matter the pain it brings us. Once we were a nation who stood up for what was right, now we kowtow to the imperialists….

    • Mark 4.1

      15 weeks? of protests, infrastructure vandalised, protesters chucking firebombs, bricks, closing off the airport for 2 whole days, running into the parliament and completely trashing the place. That there has not been a single death is a miracle, and the police in Hong Kong have shown miraculous restraint.

      What do you think would happen if these punks had tried similar in the US –tried say running into Capitol Hill or the White House with a mask on and iron bars to hoist the Chinese flag.

      What do you think would happen even in NZ, if for whatever cause you name, you and your mates rock on down to Auckland Airport and try preventing travellers from checking in – you will be given very short shrift.

      Or try going to a train station, smashing the turnstiles and the ticket machines, and lighting a big fire outside the station entrance to prevent people from going in. Then chuck a few molotovs at the cops who come to extinguish the fire —-and this carried on for weeks on end….I'm sure the good ordinary citzenry would be demanding the cops come in and crack a few heads ….in ANY civilized country of the world.

      • Incognito 4.1.1

        Quite possibly the PRC is keen to avoid another Tiananmen Square disaster so close to their 70th China Day. They also know that the whole world is watching and there are a few loose cannons in positions of power in various places who cannot wait for things to go pear-shaped anywhere in China.

      • Psycho Milt 4.1.2

        What do you think would happen even in NZ…

        Pro-democracy protests tend not to happen here, for a fairly obvious reason.

        Still, if NZ were in the future to become a totalitarian dictatorship, it would quite possibly be the kind of place in which the government responds to protests by sending in the army to kill the protesters and then imposes a media blackout so no-one in the country can read about what happened. So yeah, could be similar under the right circumstances.

      • You_Fool 4.1.3

        Try reading actual news reports from HK, not PRC audited and cleansed lies. Police routinely torture and kill people, don't report it and then file it as self-harm or suicide because of depression. So much so that most people who speak out publicly now start by mentioning how happy they are with life and their future plans.

        You also seem to not have been told that half the destruction is caused by the "white shirts" which are mainland chinese gangs being shipped in to cause chaos, whilst the HK police conveniently are not around.

        You comment also fails to note that this is not a couple of kids, this is a majority of the city that is rising up, why do you think they still have million people strikes and peaceful protests despite the establishments best attempts to shut down the city?

        But yeah, those kids who just want a say in how their city is run are totally at fault

  5. Mark 5

    but the general public abhor the purchase of political influence, and the fact that you don't know that further deprecates your claim of NZ ancestry

    Only thing though they obviously don't abhor it enough to make a big deal of it. Otherwise the political parties will act on it.

    The purchase of political influence though, is of course something that is prevalent throughout Western democracies, including this one – happened well before the Chinese arrived in any significant numbers.

    Why are rich Chinese making donations anymore than rich native-born NZrs?

    In the US huge corporate donations to both Democrats and Republicans are simply part of and parcel of the political landscape.

    As for my NZ 'ancestry' that's up to you to believe or disbelieve. I'm hardly going to ask you out for a cup of coffee to prove my identity! Obviously you consider yourself a gatekeeper of who is a kiwi and who is not -based on whether or not you find the political views of someone acceptable or unacceptable. Certainly a person of democratic spirit you are!

    [Corrected e-mail address for the second time today]

    • Stuart Munro. 5.1

      "a person of democratic spirit"

      Money doesn't get a vote, nor should it – just one of those fine distinctions that goes over your head.

      • Mark 5.1.1

        'Money doesn't get a vote.'

        Well where has that been the case? We have always has rich people donating to political parties, from way back.

        That is altogether different from paying people to vote a certain way.

        Looks like your intellect is too low to tell the difference.

        [maybe you are new here, please read the About and Policy. Gratuitous insults likely start flame wars are going to get the attention of moderators, who then don’t like their time being wasted. Your political arguments are sufficient without having to poke at people as well – weka]

        • weka 5.1.1.1

          mod note above.

          • Mark 5.1.1.1.1

            Oh, btw Weka, I'm such a nice tolerant guy by nature who does not normally bear grudges that I completely forgot to point out that Stuart Munro called me a 'motherfucker' in an earlier post on this thread, please check it out.

            So I will have to withdraw my earlier guilty plea of ‘escalating it’

        • Mark 5.1.1.2

          OK Weka, fair enough but he started it saying things were 'above' my head, and I escalated it, admittedly

          • Stuart Munro. 5.1.1.2.1

            It is over your head – you are advocating corruption and you don't understand how offensive that is. It's not an insult, it's fact. There's not a country in the world that needs more corruption.

            • Mark 5.1.1.2.1.1

              "you are advocating corruption and you don't understand how offensive that is

              Where am I advocating 'corruption'? I have not stated my opinion on foreign donations, but simply made the point that rich people donating to political parties is not something that is unique to Chinese, but has always been part of the NZ political landscape – rightly or wrongly.

              Again….simple logical thinking is something you seem incapbable of.

              • Stuart Munro.

                "I have not stated my opinion"

                Oh, but you have! There's no argument if you don't, and you've certainly been arguing, in your vacuous fact-free way.

                You support hot and cold running corruption, so long as it's Chinese, hence your endorsement of Beijing's deliberate violence against protestors. And you're perfectly complacent about Trump, a fellow you can admire as an exemplar of such corruption, who simultaneously weakens democracy and one of China's major global competitors – what's not to like?

                But this is my country, and if you try to operate that kind of corruption here, or advocate for it, you become my enemy. I will not forgive your pitiful tissues of lies, or let you off the hook for some weakass postmodern special pleading. And if you were, as you claimed, a New Zealander you'd say exactly the same.

                • Mark

                  You are rather thick aren't you. All along I have said that your accusations of the Chinese not respecting local institutions blah blah blah is bullshit – rich Chinese donate to political parties just like rich white people. Whether or not such political donations per se are a good thing or not, I have been silent about. I was simply pointing out your arrogant hypocrisy.

                  hence your endorsement of Beijing's deliberate violence against protestors.

                  That fucker that got shot? Totally deserved it. Watch this video. Two cops were set on by a gang of thugs and beaten with hammers, sharpened metal poles, spanners, etc. The punk was swinging a metal pole at the officer when he got shot. One of his mates was trying to stab an officer on the ground with a sharpened steel pole. They then chucked a molotov cocktail at the cops.

                  Try doing that anywhere else in the world, particularly the US. In NZ, Steven Wallace got gunned down simply for breaking store windows – he was nowhere near that officer who gunned him down.

                  Anyone that swings a steel pole at an officer while his mates are viciously attacking the officers buddy lying on the ground with spanners, hammers and sharpened sticks is asking for it. Anywhere in the civilized world.

                  A former FBI agent confirms that the shooting was completely justified

                  • Mark

                    But this is my country, and if you try to operate that kind of corruption here, or advocate for it, you become my enemy.

                    Again. What corruption? Its my country as much as if not more yours.

                    Your enemy? Great. Bring it on you keyboard warrior – who is too lazy to get off his fat ass and agitate for a change of laws relating to foreign donations. That about shows the extent of your concern…..you probably spend more time pulling yourself behind your screen, rather than do something that would really get the changes you want. Its all just drivel and hot air. What an impotent dork.

                    [lprent: Hello dimwit – I see that you’re back again. Muted the stupid part of your comment. ]

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      Semantic warfare is every bit as real as other kinds – the guns don't come out, after all, without it – which I guess is why you devote so much time to it.

                      [lprent: I tend to view mentions of guns being pulled as being a variant of the Godwin observation about online dialogue. ]

                  • Stuart Munro.

                    That fucker that got shot? Totally deserved it.

                    You're just an Asian hillbilly ain't you Mark – not growed up enough to discuss politics with adults, much less progressive politics.

                    • Mark

                      Oh….so you are not into the evidence that is staring you in the face eh?……sheesh wouldn’t want you on a jury

                    • Stuart Munro.

                      So you think the Wallace shooting was legit? It wasn't.

                      The rule of law is about, insofar as possible, leaving fatal judgements to courts.

                      Supposing your clip is genuine, half a dozen armed youths set upon a policeman, one using a hammer. If they were serious about it, he'd have serious injuries.

                      So what's your take on this incident? If we extend your logic, the gangs who assaulted the subway passengers should also have been shot.

                    • Mark

                      So you think the Wallace shooting was legit? It wasn't.

                      WTF? Of course it wasn't

                      I brought it up to point out that the NZ cops will shoot you for far less than the Hong Kong cops will

                    • Mark

                      This is the clip posted by the New York Times.

                      Western news source, as you obviously trust everything you read in the Western news media.

                      half a dozen armed youths set upon a policeman, one using a hammer. If they were serious about it, he'd have serious injuries.

                      hahahaha….the looked pretty serious to me….but even if they were not the cops should simply assume they are play acting until it is too late??? Most places around the world simply threatening a cop with lethal force will get you shot.

                      Try doing that to US cops.

    • Stuart Munro. 5.2

      "huge corporate donations to both Democrats and Republicans are simply part of and parcel of the political landscape"

      Genuine Democrats consider the US a resounding failure at present.

      "Former President Jimmy Carter offered a damning indictment of US foreign policy and domestic affairs on Tuesday, saying money in politics makes the nation more like an "oligarchy than a democracy" and casting President Donald Trump as a disappointment on the world stage."

      • Mark 5.2.1

        Actually Trump is one of the least bloodthirsty US presidents, although that is hardly saying much

        He's not an American exceptionalist so he's the best one out there, republican or democrat, except for Tulse Gabbard

        • Stuart Munro. 5.2.1.1

          Trump is a garbage fire.

          • Mark 5.2.1.1.1

            Like I said to a mate the other day, the trade war against China is a transient concern – in fact it will fuck up the US at least as much as China.

            More importantly, if Trump wins another term, it could well signal the beginning of the end of American exceptionalism. Which would be a boon for humanity.

            And while the US fucks itself up and goes to war with itself – get out the popcorn!

            • lprent 5.2.1.1.1.1

              Like I said to a mate the other day, the trade war against China is a transient concern – in fact it will fuck up the US at least as much as China.

              It already has, as Paul Krugman eloquently points out in the NYT.

              BTW: leave off the really stupid personal attacks or I’ll start assisting you in understanding exactly how stupid that are by dissecting your comments and suggesting your probable motivations. I’ve had decades more experience about how to do this ‘correctly’, I’m likely to be way better at it, and I don’t play fair on the basis that dumb arseholes who can’t learn from experience need to be educated the hard way.

              • Mark

                <i>"I shouldn't have to start a campaign to make arrogant motherfuckers like you respect the laws, conventions and institutions of my country</i>"..Stuart Munro.

                I did not start this.

                [lprent: I don’t care who started anything – so NEVER use that as an argument. What I look at is comments in roughly the order I see them. If a comment walks over the line I usually don’t bother to look for rights and wrongs between commenters. I just look at the wrongs against the site.

                If you’re reactive, can’t hold your temper then just comment on a possible problem. We’re really not that interested in defects in anyone’s personality – we’re interested in keeping the site readable. ]

                • Stuart Munro.

                  Yes you did.

                  You contradicted me without evidence and accused me of hiding behind my computer – apparently you type boldly – from the front 😀 , though of course you are too ashamed to use your own name.

        • joe90 5.2.1.2

          Actually Trump is one of the least bloodthirsty US presidents,

          He's making an effort.

          /

      • Mark 5.2.2

        Genuine democrats like that psychopathic murderous hoe, Hillary, "We came, we saw, he died"

  6. Mark 6

    which I guess is why you devote so much time to it.

    Well I certainly have got your goat up today – I'd like to say its great sport…but not really, its like shooting fish in a barrel. Don't wail and gnash your teeth too much ….its not good for your health

    [lprent: Any variation of the owned / pwned tactic usually recommends to me that a ban is in order. ]

    • Stuart Munro. 6.1

      I defer to your knowledge of shooting fish in barrels, but you cannot assemble a coherent argument to save your life.

      You whine about American exceptionalism like a trooper, but you never apply the same standards to China. Nor are you insightful – Trump did not invent US exceptionalism, he won't be the end of it either.

      • Mark 6.1.1

        but you cannot assemble a coherent argument to save your life.

        Hahahahaha that's why you have staggered after me for the past day or so like a drunk journeyman bar fighter trying to land a solitary pussy punch…without success

        but you never apply the same standards to China

        China does not give a fuck about how other people run their affairs. You seem extremely interested in how China runs hers.

        For example is it not strange that NZ is interested in Tibet or Xinjiang, and even has the temerity to sign up to a letter condemning China's anti-terror measures in the latter? Sounds like foreign influence to me — explicitly so.

        How would you feel if China did same over New Zealand's extremely high incarceration rates of Maori? I'm sure most NZrs would not approve of that.

        That's Western exceptionalism.

        • Stuart Munro. 6.1.1.1

          How would you feel if China did same over New Zealand's extremely high incarceration rates of Maori? I'm sure most NZrs would not approve of that.

          That's Western exceptionalism.

          Actually it wouldn't worry me at all – it's a grievance that's long overdue to be addressed – But China will not of course, because it would highlight their hypocrisy in the treatment of their own ethnic peoples.

          Your self-congratulation on your argument skills is frankly pitiful, concentrate on your content – you can probably get a C minus if you put a little work into it.

  7. Mark 7

    Western exceptionalism:

    In the lifetime of my parents Englishmen could kill chinese with complete and utter legal impunity in China. Have you heard of extraterritoriality

    The Wanhsien Incident: British gunboats shelled innocent Chinese civilians killing about 3000 in 1926. The British Consul thus described this incident: “Its a wonderful show on the part of the navy, but we can never forgive these bloody Chinks…’ Also the Shanghai English language press hailed the killing of innocent Chinese claiming they had been “put in their place.”

    When will the Chinese navy have the right to sail up the Thames and shell British civilians and murder them at their hearts content?

    • Ad 7.1

      I think it's bigger than that.

      There's a contest in China between the unfettered growth-all capitalism of Shenzen, and the mixed approach of Hong Kong.

      I'm actually pretty impressed that the central government hasn't rolled in with tanks.

      Maybe Xi is just letting history be the judge.

      You could argue that in the last thirty years, western countries have generated massive backwards inequality and unsuccessfully compensated for massive worker wealth loss with more and more elections and other kinds of choice-theory.

    • Stuart Munro. 7.2

      You're shifting your argument – American exceptionalism is a different beast, all that "We shall be as a city upon a hill, the eyes of all people are upon us."

      As for western exceptionalism, it continues to this day, principally in the form of bombing, which is notoriously poor at finding military targets.

      It was never a lack of right that stopped China sailing up the Thames and returning colonial favours, but lack of capacity – the same lack of capacity that encouraged Japan and Russia to invade, just as China did to Tibet.

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