Convoy protest 19/2/22

Written By: - Date published: 6:05 am, February 19th, 2022 - 294 comments
Categories: covid-19 - Tags: , , ,

Day 12.

Why we need stories of strength not division (Jess Berentson-Shaw, Newsroom)

Police crack down, Maori will catch the brunt of it (Tina Ngata on understanding why police haven’t done something, twitter)

@Te_Taipo (Te Ranigikaiwhiria Kemara twitter, live reporting of the protest)

We know how to end the protest. But what would we give up in return? (Andrew Geddis, The Spinoff)

Figureheads and factions: the key people at the parliament occupation (Toby Manhire, The Spinoff)

Police wave white flag as occupiers dig in – why parliament stalemate won’t end anytime soon (Marc Daalder, Newsroom)

Number of protesters’ vehicles in vicinity of Parliament nearly doubles in two days (State of play on the ground, Joel MacManus and Sophie Cornish, Stuff)

Protest as of 18/02/22. Image Henry Cooke and Kate Newton, Stuff

 

Immunologist on health reasons for vaccine mandates (Checkpoint, RNZ)

What does the right to protest actually mean? (micky savage, The Standard)

The occupation of NZ’s parliament grounds is a tactical challenge for police, but mass arrests are not an option ( Lecturer in Criminology, Monash University, The Conversation)

List of reasons for Convoy 2022 NZ (NZ Truckies FB)

Letter of Demand (from protest organisers)

Newsroom: ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way

Stuff: Inside the disorienting, contradictory swirl of the convoy, as seen through its media mouthpiece,

 

294 comments on “Convoy protest 19/2/22 ”

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  1. Jenny how to get there 1
    19 February 2022 at 7:34 am

    No such thing as bad soldiers, only bad generals

    Mayoral News

    Recent news from Wellington's Mayor.

    https://wellington.govt.nz/your-council/about-the-council/mayor-and-councillors/office-of-the-mayor/mayoral-news

  3. vto 3
    19 February 2022 at 8:24 am

    my 2c says, while I have sympathy for the remove-the-mandates cry and dont like the deputisation of one citizen against another, no way…

    …. I do not appreciate the threat to the basic structure of our society and our institutions by the fucknuts mixed in with the remove-the-mandates people.

    However, as I said during the Trump years, the crazies there are coming here…

    et voila

  4. DukeEll 4
    19 February 2022 at 8:29 am

    Strong parallels between the policies of the government and its enforcement arm, the police, in how gangs and these protesters are treated. Similar results too

  5. Adrian 5
    19 February 2022 at 8:46 am

    DukeEll, would your attitude change if you knew,as the police do, that there is a very real likelihood that some of the nutters in there have access to guns in their vehicles.? Remember, the police know so much more about the proclivities of every occupiers than any of us commentating tossers do.

    • Jenny how to get there 6.1
      19 February 2022 at 9:07 am

      Disgusting.

      If a National government was in power and Left wing protesters had done this, the government would have ordered the to police forcefully evict the protesters, and remove and impound all their illegally parked vehicles.

      No doubt about it!

      • DukeEll 6.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:00 am

        Which is what you want this government and police to do. so a national government, by your logic is better than a labour government

    • mauī 6.2
      19 February 2022 at 10:24 am

      Whats been done to the cenotaph exactly?

      • observer 6.2.1
        19 February 2022 at 10:26 am

        See comment #13.

        • mauī 6.2.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:35 am

          Getting caught up in the middle of a protest its got off fairly lightly.

          • Shanreagh 6.2.1.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 12:03 pm

            It is not in the middle. It is out to the side/entry to lower Lambton Quay and It could have been left ie organisers could have said no parking etc on the monument but no they were parking on it from 8/2/22.

            Pl don't try to minimise this.

            • mauī 6.2.1.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 5:31 pm

              Is the cenotaph surrounded by parked vehicles? from the last photo I saw the answer to that is yes. Which means it is currently or was part of the protest.

              • Shanreagh …
                19 February 2022 at 6:40 pm

                Zooooom. That is what I said. I also said that the organisers as far back as 8/2/22 had it in their power to prevent parking on the monument but did not. From 8/2/22 to today they have it in their power to stop parking on the monument ie the Cenotaph remembering the NZ dead in wars and all those who fought.

                That they did not shows exactly what kind of creeps we are dealing with.

                Just because it is occupied by barbequing and squatting campervans does not make it right. it is an indignity placed upon the indignity of the original not peaceful occupation.

      • Shanreagh 6.2.3
        19 February 2022 at 11:16 am

        When I first went there on the Tuesday they first set-up there were campervans and cars parked on it and around it. I guess they are still there. Given that this represents those who died, sitting in your parked campervan parked on the monument having a poo on it to me is the last word in not respecting the culture and customs. At the time I passed there were people getting out their BBQs and lines of towels/clothes flapping all while parked on the surrounds of this monument.

        I did not observe any open air urinating while I passed by but it has been going on.

        I think this taking over of the monument is disrespectful in the extreme. Even if they were moved on from here ……

    • Sanctuary 6.3
      19 February 2022 at 10:59 am

      So let me get this right – these retards are defacing, shitting and pissing on a memorial to people who died fighting actual Nazis?

    • Cricklewood 6.4
      19 February 2022 at 11:21 am

      Can confirm they've cleaned ut if and removed the shower

      • Shanreagh 6.4.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:25 am

        Are they still parked on the surrounds in the campervans, shitting in their onboard toilets?

        Have the cars & campervans been moved completely off the monument and its surrounds?

        Judging by the fact that chalking is ongoing when is that going to actually stop?

        NB we are not talking about the Seddon memorial but the monument on the corner of Bowen st and LQ.
        I know the Seddon memorial has had the Nazi symbol incompetently removed……who knows how that will come up now that it needs restoration.

        Just more expense for NZ govt to meet?

      • joe90 6.4.2
        19 February 2022 at 11:36 am

        The pigs used a National Memorial to the lost family members of tens of thousands of New Zealanders as a pissoir.

        Fuck them and fuck you.

        • Shanreagh 6.4.2.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:54 am

          I raised this on 9/2. The symbolic shitting on the monument in the privacy of your mobile toilet.aka a campervan riles me too…as you may have noticed.

          They are really tone something to think that this is OK. When I was there passing on 8/2 they had the good old barbies out and the washing lines with the towels flapping as well, all on the surrounds of or on the graduated steps up to the Cenotaph. We hold our Anzac day ceremonies there.

    • Fran 6.5
      19 February 2022 at 1:29 pm

      That is not an open-air toilet. Fake news and outrage. It is a cleaning crew cleaning chalk messages off the cenotaph because the protesters themselves thought it was disrespectful to write on the cenotaph. Get a grip on the outrage and find out the facts first all you keyboard warriors.

      NZ citizens are fighting for our human rights and you commentators of the left want to support discrimination. I am utterly disgusted that many of you think it is OK for kids to be excluded from sport and their other hobbies, that people should lose the right to work, that libraries should exclude some people because you are scared.

      Most of the protesters in Wellington, and everywhere else are left-wing, just look at how the protest is working, it is the epitome of left-wing actions right down to the garden. So perhaps you should find out what is really happening, actually listen to the people there it might be enlightening.

      • Andrew Miller 6.5.1
        19 February 2022 at 1:33 pm

        Surely you realise the ship has sailed for anyone but true believers to fall for this nonsense.

        But I’m sure all the victims of all the threats, abuse and intimidation thank you for calling them liars.

      • joe90 6.5.2
        19 February 2022 at 1:43 pm

        And the have organisers agreed to move a toilet that wasn't there and clean up a mess that doesn't exist, right?

      • observer 6.5.3
        19 February 2022 at 1:44 pm

        Speaking of fake news …

        because the protesters themselves thought it was disrespectful to write on the cenotaph.

        The timeline is clear. They cleaned it today only AFTER they were told to do so – in blunt terms – by the "No Duff" people yesterday. See their Facebook post.

        Before that the "protesters" had done nothing. It wasn't "disrespectful" until then.

      • Shanreagh 6.5.4
        19 February 2022 at 6:48 pm

        That is not an open-air toilet. Fake news and outrage. It is a cleaning crew cleaning chalk messages off the cenotaph because the protesters themselves thought it was disrespectful to write on the cenotaph. Get a grip on the outrage and find out the facts first all you keyboard warriors.

        I am afraid it is you who needs to get up to date. The organisers were given an ultimatum by a group called No Duff to remove it by noon tomorrow and that is the only reason that they have moved to remedy the mess.

        .https://thestandard.org.nz/convoy-protest-19-2-22/#comment-1864866

        No Duff is a veteran's organisation https://www.noduff.org/

        I think perhaps you could have a look at what this guy has been saying, he has been commenting from the beginning. I am informed he is a leftie and he seems to be finding plenty of 'unleft actions'.

        @Te_Taipo (Te Ranigikaiwhiria Kemara twitter, live reporting of the protest)

        But you believe what you want to believe don't let the real world intrude…..

    • mauī 6.6
      19 February 2022 at 6:03 pm

      The elite of the left is more concerned with the temporary condition of a built structure, rather than address why someone would up sticks and drive from another part of the country and decide to live at the monument. Says it all really.

      • The Chairman 6.6.1
        19 February 2022 at 6:50 pm

        @mauī

        yes

      • North 6.6.2
        19 February 2022 at 10:16 pm

        Do you not get about Maui ? People travel from wherever to do whatever…..some people travel to murder their spouse. Preparedness to travel on its own is by no means a mark of anything admirable. Your attribution of concern for a 'structure' as a feature of being 'Left' is just so much tutae. Which you actually know of course. "Says it all" is a piece of nonsense Maui. You know it.

  7. Reality 7
    19 February 2022 at 8:53 am

    General tone in the Dom Post letters/articles today is that of being completely fed up with the protesters and police. Hindsight is easy, but the police let go of enforcement a week ago and now things are worse than ever and are standing back and letting even more vehicles arrive. Everyone I have spoken to is really angry things have got so bad.

    • aj 7.1
      19 February 2022 at 9:37 am

      Thank you to the author of these threads, good to have the links each day thanks.

      Everyone I have spoken to is really angry things have got so bad

      I agree, and the anger amongst the protesters is so high as well, through the roof. We noticed that in the street marches earlier on, sullen angry people. It's not good.

      I get sick of people talking about 'forced vaccinations' – bullshit. It was a choice for people to make. I don't like mandates either, we shouldn't need them, but I support the businesses and govt entities that have them in place. Your choice have consequences. I'd love to know how many of these people that 'lost their jobs' were offered alternative work for the duration of the mandates but said get stuffed. In many organisations they allowed anti-vax staff to work for home, or in site where they had no contact with other staff.

      I have a lot of sympathy for both police and the govt here. They are all on a hiding to nothing.

      About that Horizon poll showing 30% support for the protesters. Funny how this somewhat less than current National and Act support. Seems to me much of that support may be a tribal vote – I don't like the protest but this is a way of kicking labour. And some principled people on the centre right voted no.

      The Groundswell people have gone to ground – or have they?

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127815115/southanders-head-north-to-join-wellington-protest-action

      Gore dairy farmer James Matheson joined the protest action on February 12 and will return home early next week, but plans to go back to Wellington on a tractor.

      He was “anti mandate and sick of the Government regulations on farmers”.

      Matheson said there was a good vibe at the protest and everyone was helping each other out.

      He stays in a hotel while in Wellington and does free “security” with others involved in the protest for about 16 hours a day.

      There were some “bad elements” who went through the site at nights, mainly from the city, and clear heads were needed to defuse situations, he said.

    • Ad 7.2
      19 February 2022 at 10:06 am

      They ain't seen nothing yet.

  8. Robert Guyton 8
    19 February 2022 at 9:30 am

    Canadian Civil Liberties taking Trudeau’s govt. to court over extreme law.

    "We are taking the government of Canada to court. We are here today because of the government’s response to the protests and blockades. The government’s emergency declaration is unprecedented and seriously infringes the Charter rights of Canadians."

    https://rdln.wordpress.com/2022/02/19/canadian-civil-liberties-taking-trudeaus-govt-to-court-over-extreme-law/

    • Sanctuary 9.1
      19 February 2022 at 9:57 am

      He isn't funny. He might have been funny the first time back 2005 but now he is tedious. God he's tedious. He's just another idiot who has never achieved a single thing in his entire life. My wife (I say my wife because I am just a seat polisher) perfectly fits his "woke middle class" sneer. She is a highly regarded professional in her career who is paid OK, if at a fraction of what she deserves considering the good she does.

      Keyboard warriors like Bradbury like to roll their pimply ass out bed and spew the tiresome bumper sticker slogans of Trumpist bullshit politics because he is jealous at people like my wife who live in a nice house in a nice suburb. But she has dedicated 25 years of her life to trying to help tomorrows killers not be or picking her way past glowering pitbulls to knock on any number of dysfunctional doors to make sure a person makes their court date or doesn't kill themselves or goes to school or has a decent chance in front of the judge. Her "middle class woke" views have helped in a material way thousands of New Zealanders.

      So excuse me if I find the smears and sneers and the railing against better and more successful people by more or less complete failures – be it Cameron Slater or Martyn Bradbury – just a little bit snore inducing and highly ridiculous.

      Bradbury ought to start going to an old fashioned church and connect with a community and get a real job helping people instead of just being someone who hasn't lecturing those that have.

      • Patricia Bremner 9.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 12:43 pm

        Yes and the folk who are happy to hop on the band waggon now in hopes of rolling this Government will be worse off when the planned austerity moves discussed by Luxon's guest are followed.

        This is not what the majority want.

        The Government may be forced to make moves which will impact us all.

        To read some comments, it would be easy to believe the PM acted alone and science and the Cabinet had nothing to do with it.

        A great deal of this rage is imported, and for protestors to turn apologise cosy up to the press rings alarm bells.

      • swordfish 9.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 1:37 pm

        .

        He is jealous at people like my wife who live in a nice house in a nice suburb … So excuse me if I find the smears and sneers and the railing against better and more successful people by more or less complete failures – be it Cameron Slater or Martyn Bradbury – just a little bit snore inducing and highly ridiculous.

        Here we see the entirely predictable but still absolutely fascinating spectacle of the bloated, pompous, affluent Professional Middle Class (assiduously advertising itself as somehow “left-wing“) swiftly transforming into a new self-interested Establishment Centre-Right …

        … the comfortably-off Woke falling back on all the narcissistic, self-promotional rhetoric of the Bourgeois Right … [We’re Winners, You’re Losers, Eat It !!!] … & pursuing precisely the same proclivities towards consolidating their own power & privilege … up to & including the advocacy of strong-arm state enforcement … all the while indulging in ostentatious moral posturing of a particularly crude & fraudulent nature.

        A self-interested, self-regarding Cultural Elite.

        • Patricia Bremner 9.1.2.1
          19 February 2022 at 2:58 pm

          "We are the winners you are the losers eat it" was I believe said by Michael Cullen who used to bus to work and owned one home all his life. Started Kiwisaver to assist people with their old age.

          That is the problem with broad brush strokes from either side it often hits the wrong folk.

          • alwyn 9.1.2.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 7:19 pm

            "Michael Cullen who used to bus to work and owned one home all his life".

            Really? I wonder who was his identical double who used a Crown Limo to travel to Parliament when he was a Minister?

            And I see that Clarke Gayford has been making a program on house moving. I wonder if he was responsible for shifting Michael's house from Dunedin, where he started, to Napier where he lived during his later days as an MP and then moved it on to Ohope where Michael moved to after he retired.

            Somebody must have done it if your claim that he "owned one house all his life" is to be believed,

      • North 9.1.3
        19 February 2022 at 10:30 pm

        Bradbury's become an 'institution' and no one's more convinced of that than Bradbury himself. A vain-glorious fuck. Just like Paul Holmes.

    • Bearded Git 9.2
      19 February 2022 at 10:30 am

      The problem with Bombers' incoherent rant is that the protestors at parliament are nothing to do with legitimate complaints about this government that it has failed to redistribute wealth in NZ in a fairer way.

      He also attacks the Greens on his site regularly, but they had a genuine workable wealth tax in their manifesto at the last election.

      Bomber used to have some credibility. No more I'm afraid.

      • Sanctuary 9.2.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:08 am

        Bradbury has joined to Sean Plunkett's secretly funded new media project, featuring such luminaries of the left as Sean Plunkett, Ani O'Brien, Michale Laws, Don Brash, Martin Devlin, Michael Bassett, Chris Trotter and Karl Du Fresne. What a shit show of the mediocre, yesterday's men, the disgraced and plain bigoted.

        A clapped out clown car of the left behind. They are right wing populist grifters cruising around and stopping at every unseemly brawl in the hope of finding some relevance in the mess.

        • Bearded Git 9.2.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:45 am

          Sanc-I agree with 90% of that. Trotter, however, can be brilliant or terrible seemingly dependent on how many beers he has had at Galbraith's the night before.

          For instance his two articles this week "Jones Won" and "Caught in the Crossfire", both linked on The Standard, were excellent. But last week he wrote a shocker irrationally attacking the government. And he hates the Greens with a passion.

          Quite why he would mix with the crowd you list is beyond me.

        • Blade 9.2.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 12:46 pm

          Please feel free to exercise your democratic right ( what's left of it) and don't listen. You aren't the target audience. You will be happy, and so will they.yes

        • Robert Guyton 9.2.1.3
          19 February 2022 at 2:08 pm

          Nicely-put, Sanctuary!

        • roblogic 9.2.1.4
          19 February 2022 at 4:23 pm

          Have generally enjoyed Martyn’s unhinged rants. His class analysis was usually pretty sharp but now he’s reading a class war narrative into these protests which are patently a copy of the Jan 6 insurrection attempt and the Canada blockades. There are some awful actors stirring up this shit who want NZ to follow in the footsteps of Chile and overthrow a democratic govt using the bullying tactics of the transport industry.

          Bomber has fucked up and now he can’t back off from his stupid alignment with alt right science deniers and friendship with rotten scum who want to shoot up Mosques and hang politicians. Maybe something has flipped him. It’s fucken weird

          • Bearded Git 9.2.1.4.1
            19 February 2022 at 5:07 pm

            The CIA was heavily involved in the events that led to Allende's demise Robo.

            I don't think even the CIA would want to get involved with the rabble camping outside parliament.

        • North 9.2.1.5
          19 February 2022 at 10:40 pm

          Oh Sanctuary…..so good about the prideful self-imagined icons. And with no disrespect Bomber…..please stop parading your daughter. You're not, God forbid, a Kardashian.

  10. Black Cat Strikes 10
    19 February 2022 at 9:45 am

    There are increasing signs pointing to Counterspin Media inciting insurection, four weeks ago. On their two-screen set-up as they surveil the right and left, they didn't check the right-hand screen. It's been turned off for years.

  11. GreenBus 11
    19 February 2022 at 9:50 am

    I have swallowed a dead rat and now believe the state forces should continue to de-escalate.

    Why? Firstly I have zero doubt, none at all, that the Police/Army could easily take back the city if they deemed it the best move. It’s not.

    The Politicians are running this – Labour’s top brass, and as ever don’t want to be seen as control freaks. This protest is about perceived state over-reach.

    With that mob at the front and all the Karens in behind and the Alt-Right behind all of them, this view will not change.

    However the state have the opportunity to prove by peaceful negotiation they are not Nazi’s and take the wind out of the sails of the protesters and eventually the calm will come. Jacinda’s influence no doubt.

    • weka 11.1
      19 February 2022 at 11:06 am

      You think the Labour caucus is telling the NZ police what to do? That's an extraordinary claim.

      • Blade 11.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 12:55 pm

        HDPA believes it's likely. So do I, if you remember what I wrote.

        More concisely put- political input.

        The PM has said the protest was a police issue. I call bs.

        There has been a security committee meeting at parliament. I find it inconceivable the PM isn't briefed each day and provides a government input regarding what they want, and how they would like to proceed.

        The review should answer all those questions.

        • weka 11.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 2:01 pm

          Does the PM attend those meetings?

          How does Labour tell the police what to do exactly? On the phone? By email?

          • Blade 11.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 6:56 pm

            ''Does the PM attend those meetings?''

            Does that matter?

            I believe Andy is in charge of the SIS. To believe he attended a security committee meeting and left the PM out of the loop is not possible In my opinion… unless they were not briefing the PM for plausible deniability reasons. But even that sounds ridiculous.

            ''How does Labour tell the police what to do exactly? On the phone? By email?''

            I would say through Poto Williams who has a legitimate reason to engage the Police Commissioner.

            Use the make believe example of a farm owner whose farm is run by a farm manager. Poachers have been a problem. But because the manager fired a gun at them, the poachers have vowed revenge. Each night they mass on the farm borders and attempt to cause problems. The farm manager has talked to police and has a posse of local farmers to help protect the farm.

            If you were the farm manager, would you leave the farm owner out of the loop, or ignore any suggestions from him?frown

            Now, here's a problem on a number of levels. Looks like semantics to me given our present situation.

            ''The chief executive of Police is known as the Commissioner and is appointed by the Governor General. Andrew Coster is the current Commissioner of New Zealand Police. The Commissioner of Police is accountable to the Minister of Police for the administration of police services, but acts independently in carrying out law enforcement decision.''

        • Robert Guyton 11.1.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 2:09 pm

          "HDPA believes it's likely. So do I…"

          Well then, all-change!

          The truth is … out there!

        • North 11.1.1.3
          19 February 2022 at 10:58 pm

          The Blade……someone with the balls to quote Heather Du Plastic Allan as an authoritative view. Of anything. There has in fact been a top level security meeting Blade. As there should have been. These people, the rabble, the less than 5% are behaving as if they rule the roost and can command the 95% with their ugliness. Thank Christ they cannot. That will become evident presently. And then you can strut about calling 'Tolpuddle Martyrs'. If you even knew whom they were.

          • Blade 11.1.1.3.1
            20 February 2022 at 8:17 am

            I'm afraid you must have been living in a cave.

            You obviously haven't read my previous posts. Nor, do you want to.

            My suggestion…take a vacation…up North…North.laugh

      • The Chairman 11.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 3:22 pm

        Grant was urging the police to act. He mentioned it on Q&A last week.

  12. observer 12
    19 February 2022 at 9:58 am

    Tory Whanau suggests possible ways forward.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-convoy-parliament-protest-calls-for-mayor-to-step-up-as-police-backtrack-on-towing-focus-on-de-escalation/6QI4TLG27OP5HF4CUHBWEL74IE/

    "Police have portrayed our options as either full escalation or total appeasement. In reality there is a pragmatic middle ground that the Mayor and Police could be pursuing."

    She is right.

  13. observer 13
    19 February 2022 at 10:10 am

    You know all those signs at the protest saying "this is not what we fought for" with pictures of Anzac soldiers and the like?

    Their people are speaking out, and their message is blunt.

    https://twitter.com/MorganGodfery/status/1494772578304798721

    • vto 13.1
      19 February 2022 at 10:28 am

      "You know all those signs at the protest saying "this is not what we fought for" with pictures of Anzac soldiers "

      Horse shit to the protestors on this front – total fucking horse shit

      Most all those soldiers were mandated to go to war and die, for the common good.

      No credibility

      I have put this issue question up on a couple of places and nobody answers.

      Is there an answer?

      • Whispering Kate 13.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:46 am

        I have posted up before about the conscription of men during WW2 and about the mandating of blood donation in Egypt -being pulled out of ranks at random and marched off to field hospitals to give blood. No pissing around then and no whinging either. My relative gave four years of his life, partial deafness, loss of mates and PST for the "greater good". We haven't reached anywhere near that length of time and the war was six years in length. What a crock the lot of them are.

        And those who say they are libertarians, Trump was happy to screw up elections and stay in power forever – what sort of liberty is that. Hypocrites the lot of them.

      • North 13.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 11:06 pm

        These idiots never themselves fought for a fucking thing. They've had it spoon fed forever and they're fucking mindless wimps who pick up their dole every week and abuse mask-wearing schoolgirls in Molesworth Street. No brains, no guts, no balls. Fucking carnival goers. It's hardly more than a Trump rally.

  14. Cricklewood 14
    19 February 2022 at 10:47 am

    Well made it down after a 2am start… really good positive atmosphere huge mix of people… glad I came…

    Very different to how MSM are portraying it

    • observer 14.1
      19 February 2022 at 10:49 am

      Good. Now get over to the Cenotaph and tell us when your lovely friends have cleaned it up.

    • fender 14.2
      19 February 2022 at 10:59 am

      [deleted]

      [that’s way to close to advocating harm (read the Policy). And don’t direct abuse at other commenters – weka]

    • The Chairman 14.3
      19 February 2022 at 3:45 pm

      I told you you would love it there. It's amazing isn't it? The vibe is great. And the people are so friendly. You won't want to leave now.

      • Cricklewood 14.3.1
        19 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

        Yeah been really cool, never been in such a diverse crowd that's completely relaxed have talked to a bunch of people I would never otherwise have interacted with.

        Sadly will have to drive back home tomorrow night but yeah will take some leave and come back for sure…

        • The Chairman 14.3.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 5:33 pm

          Never been in such a diverse crowd that's completely relaxed have talked to a bunch of people I would never otherwise have interacted with.

          It's the magic of the power of the people coming together. The vibe is humming.

        • Shanreagh 14.3.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 9:20 pm

          Cricklewood & The Chairman,

          So all good with setting off Fireworks 500m from the GG residence? GG is the Queen's representative in NZ, She is not part of THE GOVT.

          Was this discussed with the happy campers and the protest tourists today?

  15. gsays 15
    19 February 2022 at 10:50 am

    What a difference a week makes.

    7 days ago, folk were predicting the rabble would be washed out.

    The cops we're going to tow their way to a solution.

    The army is coming …

    What appears to be growing support suggested by the 530 folk polled by Horizon and the swelling numbers of cars and citizens over the last few days.

    The one constant in this is the cry of "Nazi Nazi Nazi". So common is this refrain it is akin to The boy who cried Wolf.

    There was a glimmer of hope with Seymour offering to attempt dialogue.

    In a lot of ways the PTB have been out thought or been plain stupid eg Mallards actions.

    • weka 15.1
      19 February 2022 at 11:08 am

      what do you think about the amount of far right influence? And the open calls for executions?

      • Cricklewood 15.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:22 am

        Cant see it on the ground tbh

        • weka 15.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:37 am

          Does CounterSpin no longer have people on the ground? Is Powers no longer there?

          • Cricklewood 15.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 11:54 am

            I've seen 1 counterspin sticker that's it… havent noticed anybody but theres lost of people and very spread out… it's very freindly so far…

        • Robert Guyton 15.1.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 11:43 am

          As the occupation has settled in, the PR from the camp has smartened-up. They seem to have reined-in the worst of the threatening calls, as is wise to do. I can't see though, that the sentiment to "hang 'em high" could have gone – why would it? The wish for violence will still be right there, just covered over by the PR managers, yes?

      • Belladonna 15.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 11:36 am

        I have no direct knowledge, but I suspect that many of these 'calls for executions' are street theatre (knowing they'll get headlines) and being caught up in the hype and excitement of the moment. Just as Harawira-Havili was when she racially abused and spat on police at the Ihumatao protest.

        https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/114889725/ihumtao-woman-who-abused-cop-issues-apology-but-denies-comments-were-racist

        Unless there is some more evidence that these calls are mainstream, I tend to dismiss them as fringe elements attracted to the protest. We see that in all protests, some radical groups join in as an opportunity to get their own agenda across – or just from the love of protesting!

        What I think that we're seeing, which is unusual for NZ, is that this is *not* a left-wing protest.

        I do see this as expressing a deep groundswell of unhappiness. It may not be logical, and, indeed, is often incoherent; but it is deeply felt, and seems to be spread across sectors of society who don't have any other strong links to each other (i.e. a broad base).

        • Robert Guyton 15.1.2.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:39 am

          Belladonna – that "deep groundswell of unhappiness" you see; can you also imagine a deep groundswell of unhappiness that might have enveloped the country, had Covid swept, unchecked, through the population?

          In other words, a "deep groundswell of unhappiness" was bound to occur, no matter what?

          Thanks.

          • weka 15.1.2.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 11:49 am

            yes, but we could be doing our pandemic response and calling in the people badly affected by that. Instead, Ardern said too bad, two NZs. This is a result of that.

            • Robert Guyton 15.1.2.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 11:57 am

              Perhaps the blunt action is the only do-able option. Resources are limited. Support for any particular action comes with built-in critics.

              There are opportunities to criticise every single aspect of the Government's response to a very complex challenge, and all of those opportunities have been enthusiastically taken up by all and sundry.

              Remaining adroit, while carrying the responsibility for the health and well being of the nation must be an extraordinarily difficult undertaking.

              Choosing an action that has some negative aspects might be unavoidable (as it is in everything we do).

              Any Government must have to accomodate blemishes in it's "body" of work.

            • Patricia Bremner 15.1.2.1.1.2
              19 February 2022 at 1:01 pm

              Do you truly believe this Government did and is doing nothing? Or are you holding on to one comment and beating that to death. These people mainly have choices and freedoms which they are currently using.

              It appears they wish to take away the power of our elected representatives and go BAU or LAU with no health edicts. They are not able to express truly what they want, as really they want the past and the don't believe covid is bad.

              Others are coming to use this "protest". What do you think should happen?

              • weka …
                19 February 2022 at 1:29 pm

                Do you truly believe this Government did and is doing nothing?

                Sorry, wut? You plainly have no idea what I am talking about.

            • Shanreagh 15.1.2.1.1.3
              19 February 2022 at 1:38 pm

              Instead, Ardern said too bad, two NZs. This is a result of that.

              The Govt set our Pandemic response….you are personalising just like the protestors are.

              Please stop it.

              The govt set out the mandates in an effort to get NZ back and working and the economy ticking. One way to do this was to make it safer for the majority to go out and about.

              Goodness people have had a choice. If you really wanted to keep your job you would have had the vaccine. If you wanted to keep your job but had doubts then you don't go to social media, or find out what Sandy's mother's cousin's boyfriends' best friend said and pay attention to that.

              If the mandates are chucking out science and health deniers from places like health care and teaching then isn't this a good thing? Should we bring in compulsory hardline religious education or put up for equal scrutiny the flat earthers?

              I have posted Jeff Tiedrich before from October 2021

              "holy fucking shit, vaccine mandates

              are causing teachers who don't believe in science to quit,

              nurses who don't believe in medicine to quit,

              and cops who don't believe in public safety to quit.

              I'm failing to see the downside to this."

              • weka …
                19 February 2022 at 1:56 pm

                why are you talking to me as if I don't understand all that?

                The Govt set our Pandemic response….you are personalising just like the protestors are.

                Please stop it.

                what does that mean?

                Goodness people have had a choice. If you really wanted to keep your job you would have had the vaccine.

                And there we have it in a nutshell. Left wing arrogance. You've decided that vaccines are always Good and anyone who doesn't want to be vaccinated is wrong. This is why the protestors are currently winning. If we cannot and will not understand their position, then we cannot understand any solutions other than imposing our will.

                What do you want to do with the anti-vaxxers exactly? Do you think they are going to leave the protest, go home, and get on board with an agenda they simply don't believe in? Shall we try re-education camps next? Or will bog standard liberal marginalisation be sufficient?

                What's going to happen in five years time? Ten years? With the next crisis when we need most people on board?

                Team of five million, except for you lot over there, you can fuck off. One of the intersections between my own experience and theirs is the feeling they are expressing is very similar to my own as a long term beneficiary. I know that Labour don't actually care about people in my situation enough to do anything about it, and thus I've lived for decades in pain, exhaustion, often the kind of poverty that comes from disability and sometimes financial poverty. Labour have nothing to say about me and my class. The main thing that stops me from being like the mob in Wellington is that I have strong left wing and deep green values and politics. But I understand the very real human experience of disenfranchisement very well and I see it in many other NZers. Lefties can continue to be in denial about this, and we will get exactly teh country we deserve.

                • Patricia Bremner …
                  19 February 2022 at 3:28 pm

                  When did we ever say "You lot over there can fuck off"?

                  You are now putting words in our mouths. Something you personally would not stand.

                  These people are a mixed group who have coalesced around mandates as something they can agree on finally.

                  The 'neoliberal left" are not behaving like the right are they?

                  Standing firm can look like no action.

                  • weka …
                    19 February 2022 at 8:46 pm

                    When did we ever say "You lot over there can fuck off"?

                    You are now putting words in our mouths. Something you personally would not stand.

                    Who is 'we' and 'our' there? I was talking about the government. Are you saying that you want to be included in criticism of them?

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 February 2022 at 7:15 pm

                  The protestors continually say Jacinda this Jacinda that Ardern this or that. (Actually many of them are chronically unable to spell and often it is Adern this or that) She is not just one person ie a dictator in Govt. She is part of a Cabinet and behind them dedicated public servants. . I was picking you up on you saying that.

                  Instead, Ardern said too bad, two NZs. This is a result of that.

                  I am sick and tired of having anything I say decried as being left-wing.

                  If we cannot say on this blog how this protest does not espouse left wing values then where can we? Perhaps write or pee all over a monument commemorating the dead in wars? Will that get our view across?

                  What should the left wing be saying?

                  oh sorry you get all your vaccine woo woo off the internet how can we help you?

                  Oh sorry you get all your info about Covid off the social media and it says covid does not exist…..how can we help you?

                  I have spent the best part of 18 months fossicking and ferreting down rabbit holes and other truly frightening places to see where this stuff is coming from. I have spent hours in various fora rebutting this vaccine woo woo. As yet I have not had a response apart from either

                  • 'I don't like it' and 'I don't want to' (even on here) but why I ask…deafening silence.
                  • it contains aborted babies
                  • it will change the structure of our DNA
                  • it will make me sick, jst look at all of these people who have died from the vaccines

                  I have been rebutting the fakery that is being helpful and understanding for just about as long.

                  I don't think lefties are in denial …..many people I know who are not left wing who are dismayed and made powerless by the nonsensical nature of the demands and the lack of community of the 'we' or 'our'.

                  With the rampant wrong doing ie trashing the toilets at the Railway Station, the grounds around Parliament and the old wooden building, the break ins at the Runanga offices and at Poneke meeting house how much more understanding and what type of understanding do we need?

                  This is a mob.

                  This is a minority

                  Distinctions about political persuasions matter very little now.

                  Actually I think the response has been good from the politicians on all sides of the house. The protestors have a set of conditions from the speaker to be met before there is any meeting.

                  Ignoring them like the bitter childlike creatures they appear to be may work for a bit longer.
                  Of course now that they are rampaging around Wellington blockading this or that does make it easier for Police to pick up any of this fringe stuff, you know the knowledge about extended lines being vulnerable.

                  • weka …
                    19 February 2022 at 9:00 pm

                    The protestors continually say Jacinda this Jacinda that Ardern this or that. (Actually many of them are chronically unable to spell and often it is Adern this or that) She is not just one person ie a dictator in Govt. She is part of a Cabinet and behind them dedicated public servants. . I was picking you up on you saying that.

                    Instead, Ardern said too bad, two NZs. This is a result of that.

                    Well I don't say Jacinda this Jacinda that, and I'm not a protestor. I referred to her specifically in this instance because as PM she literally said two NZs in an interview. Lots of leftie minimise that, and lots of people pissed off heard it and went whoa!

                    I am sick and tired of having anything I say decried as being left-wing.

                    You've misunderstood. I'm not decrying you as being left wing, I'm observing that the left currently has a very large number of people that take the position I described. Not only left wing people, but it's a problem for the left politically, because it's basically an authoritarian position.

                    If we cannot say on this blog how this protest does not espouse left wing values then where can we?

                    Of course you can. But I don't think that 'the vaccine is always Good and anyone who doesn't want to be vaccinated is wrong' is a left wing position. If you think it is, please explain how.

                    What should the left wing be saying?

                    In this context, imo: the pandemic response is pretty good, and we need to look after all the people that are being harmed as a side effect, not just the ones we politically agree with.

                    I also strongly believe that we have to build bridges across difference, but tbf this is probably more of a green value than a lw currently.

                    oh sorry you get all your vaccine woo woo off the internet how can we help you?

                    I have a friend who has chosen to not be vaccinate, they're intelligent, have science background, and when they explained their reasoning to me it was rational and made sense even though I disagree with some of it. They're not down the rabbit hole, they don't spend that much time online, they're just getting on with their life under the mandate. That you think everyone is down the rabbit hole is about your lack of understanding (and probably unwillingness to understand). "

                    I know that subculture very well, lots are down the rabbit hole. The left being patronising and authoritarian towards them will never work.

                    I have spent the best part of 18 months fossicking and ferreting down rabbit holes and other truly frightening places to see where this stuff is coming from. I have spent hours in various fora rebutting this vaccine woo woo. As yet I have not had a response apart from either

                    Cool, so you have a solid knowledge base about one sector of society. How many people do you have in your life that you care about who chose not to vaccinate?

                    I don't think lefties are in denial

                    And yet nowhere in your response is any compassion for people who have lost important aspects of their life from the pandemic response or who are in distress about what is happening. So my question remains: what do you want to happen to them next?

                    • Shanreagh …
                      19 February 2022 at 10:03 pm

                      How many people do you have in your life that you care about who chose not to vaccinate?

                      One niece who is far down the rabbithole based on constant meme, internet use. She has many odd views and has borderline personality disorder and oppositional defiant disorder. She is old enough to make up her own mind but I/we worry that she will probably not get my gt nephew vaccinated. He has been brought up in a heavy smoking household and will undoubtedly be afffected by this sooner or later.

                      I do come from a large family that publicly espouses unpopular at the time causes. I have done this myself a couple of times.

                      To give our family credit these are/were always where there was a second way of looking at things, were framed in a logical way, did not rely on stuff from the Internet or bad players.

                      I think that to have relied on material from the Internet and then expected people trying to understand what is going on, to buy in or at least read this misleading material, is not a move calculated to influence anyone.

                      The end result for me anyway and I have been reading it for ages is to feel sorry for them.

                      • I am not sure if they are the authors of their own misfortune through not having the tools or been taught the tools for critical appraisal.
                      • I am not sure if they are isolated people who do not keep up to date with current affairs
                      • I am not sure that some are able to read and digest unless it is expressed in meme form.

                      And my view is for people to have relied on bad players and the internet and believed this stuff it is a burden to, and a fault, of all us.

                      We have perhaps taken our eyes off the education ball. So we are reaping, in all its mostly illogical glory what was sown possibly in the neo lib days or possibly even earlier.

                      Education and health and education to know about health have been lacking I think.

                      We haven't made sure our people are not gullible or capable of being conned. And this applies across the board with financial literacy as well. People not taught or unused to critically analysing also get tripped up with HP, loans, Christco etc.

                      So not being a leftie or rightie or in betweeny is not my take.

                      My take is to feel so sad and sorry for them. My take is also that our society may be responsible for the fact that they have ended up here in Wellington.

                      I know we would still get those who disagreed and competently disagreed and we would accept them just as we recognised that there were conscientious objectors during the war. They were able to enunciate their views to a panel, to persuade the panel that their views were well founded.

                      Would those protesting today be able to do the same if called upon to explain them to a panel?

                  • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                    19 February 2022 at 9:03 pm

                    yes

              • Stephen D …
                19 February 2022 at 2:28 pm

                ✅✅✅✅

              • DukeEll …
                19 February 2022 at 6:46 pm

                Not sure how you can laugh at teachers who don’t believe in science when you’re very quick to attack any one who points out that gender is binary and observed

        • weka 15.1.2.2
          19 February 2022 at 11:48 am

          Yes, it's not a left wing protest by any means.

          I do see this as expressing a deep groundswell of unhappiness. It may not be logical, and, indeed, is often incoherent; but it is deeply felt, and seems to be spread across sectors of society who don't have any other strong links to each other (i.e. a broad base).

          Completely agree with this. And the left has dropped the ball majorly by basically ridiculing and ostracising these people for the past year or two. I'm completely unsurprised by the movement, I am surprised by how it's playing out.

          I have no direct knowledge, but I suspect that many of these 'calls for executions' are street theatre (knowing they'll get headlines) and being caught up in the hype and excitement of the moment. Just as Harawira-Havili was when she racially abused and spat on police at the Ihumatao protest.

          I don't think it's a valid comparison. The death threats and exectutions are intentional and part of a strategy. Executions have been a consistent theme, even up until yesterday at the Chch protest. A protest attended by an actual Nazi (Arps) who supports the Mosque shooter. That's dangerous.

          Now we have the idea that part of the reason the police are holding off is because they have intel there are firearms in protestors cars.

          This happened on day 2,

          At 3.15pm on Wednesday, Power attempted to breach the police line at Parliament to enter the building and serve his legal papers to Little. The plan was then to citizens arrest the health minister – effectively, to kidnap him – and then put him on trial. The preordained punishment was to be execution.

          https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hijacked-the-inside-story-of-how-nzs-convoy-lost-its-rudder

          Maybe that was just one person/extremist. But then,

          Factions of more than 1000 protesters got as close as possible to Parliament’s staff, politicians and journalists, and threatened death. They told reporters they would be hung for reporting about the Covid-19 pandemic, and shouted for “executions”.

          Fearing for their safety, many reporters chose to stay within Parliament’s walls. They filmed from the Speaker’s balcony, metres above the crowd, which appeared to agitate some protesters.

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300515874/the-week-started-with-calls-for-my-execution-and-ended-at-a-strange-festival

          https://twitter.com/nealejones/status/1494498436967993344

      • gsays 15.1.3
        19 February 2022 at 11:56 am

        I feel the 'far right' influence is over stated. Especially by those whom I regarded as level headed opinion shapers eg Neale Jones prolonged histrionic outburst on the RNZ political slot, Monday 11am and Godfrey's piece on Stuff yesty. Godfrey was classic misinformation IMO.

        Not saying there aren't fuckwits in the crowd, but to paint the crowd as Nazi sympathisers, as McF has been dutifully doing round here, is an echo chamber working to full effect.

        Any calls for execution are isolated and not to be unexpected in a mixed excited crowd. When was the last threat verbalised?

        • Robert Guyton 15.1.3.1
          19 February 2022 at 12:01 pm

          I think you misunderstood Neale Jones' comments, gsays, as did the two women who constantly over-talked him.

          As to when the last threat was verbalised, you may feel relieved that the calls to lynch the Prime Minister, MPs and journalists have quietened down, but others might wonder if they're simply being managed/hidden better.

          Do you really think the sentiment has disappeared and if so, why do you think that?

        • Cricklewood 15.1.3.2
          19 February 2022 at 12:10 pm

          I agree I think msm have vastly overstated the far right influence.

          The hippies are have more influence 😂

          • Robert Guyton 15.1.3.2.1
            19 February 2022 at 12:13 pm

            Thank goodness!

            Imagine if their loving vibes were missing from the occupation.

            What would be left?

          • Andrew Miller 15.1.3.2.2
            19 February 2022 at 12:55 pm

            I’m please there’s no chance that’s your confirmation bias showing…

          • Shanreagh 15.1.3.2.3
            19 February 2022 at 1:54 pm

            Yes and how is that manifested please?

            Yoga, vego meals and rounds of kumbaya? Peace bro.

            If you say that then they are ripe to be manipulated. They won't know what struck them in this self imposed chamber of propaganda.

            Remember the truism if a group of 6 of you have a discussion with one Nazi it is a discussion of 7 Nazis. The same can be said for one person and a follower of Counterspin or any white power group, or any group intent on the overthrow of power by undemocratic means, or the forcing of will by undemocratic means.

        • Shanreagh 15.1.3.3
          19 February 2022 at 12:21 pm

          Any calls for execution are isolated and not to be unexpected in a mixed excited crowd. When was the last threat verbalised?

          If you are following te taipo see link above you will know that the last threat was verbalised and listed last night 18/2 at a meeting in the main tent. The list of people who were on the hang em high list has been supplied to the Police.

          I think you and your friend may be innocents aboard.

          I am sorry but I don’t know of any crowd mixed or not where execution threats can be dismissed as you have just done.

          https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1494600069126901760

          https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1494556600622673923

          • Robert Guyton 15.1.3.3.1
            19 February 2022 at 1:58 pm

            "innocents aboard."

            Thank you, Shanreagh – you have encapsulated the problem perfectly!

            ('cept I think you mean "abroad" 🙂

      • Shanreagh 15.1.4
        19 February 2022 at 12:15 pm

        Weka you are better, I think, to follow this guy. He is following on ground utterances as well as the protestors various sites.

        I think Cricklewood is well meaning but would be missing lots if they are not sure what they are looking for.

        Counterspin won't be having stickers they are a large presence over the speakers etc, moderating who is speaking on the onground mics etc….

        https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo

        • Cricklewood 15.1.4.1
          19 February 2022 at 1:34 pm

          Sure, I can only comment on what I see, it's a big space and lots of people…

          • Shanreagh 15.1.4.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 1:42 pm

            It is not a big space…..I worked there for four years.

            It probably has lots of people squeezing close to each without masks and who are about to embark on a bit of aerosolising the covid bugs with all the singing later this afternoon.

            • Cricklewood 15.1.4.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 5:12 pm

              It's now very spread out, lots of things happening in lots of different places, so yeah no way you can see everything.

        • weka 15.1.4.2
          19 February 2022 at 1:39 pm

          I'm reading him as I can, but he has me blocked (presumably because cancel culture, thanks inclusive left), and I have to open another browser and now be logged in to twitter which makes it much harder to follow over the day.

          I think both are right. Te Taipo and the lefties who are pointing to the far right, and gsays and cricklewood who are pointing to the hippies. Neither side has a good grasp of the overall situation imo, and both are working within distinct philosophical frames.

          I think gsays and cricklewood are naive about the far right involvement, hence it looks fine on the ground. The lefties calling out Nazis are in large denial of the validity of the distress and dissent felt by many of the people who are protesting.

          I also think it's highly likely there are men there intent on insurrection, and/or violence generally, biding their time. Which is why the police are holding off. No way would the police be doing that if it was just a peace and love protest.

          • Shanreagh 15.1.4.2.1
            19 February 2022 at 1:48 pm

            Yes but….

            if people of any sort are saying things and doing things that you disagree with why are these people not leaving…..why have we now got the protest tourists coming in 'to make their own minds up' no matter that they don't know the factions.

            By staying and not countering what is said or what you see, you turn a blind eye and put yourself firmly in the camp of 'ends justifying the means'.

            I think people's commonsense and intuition seem to have been left on the side of the road somewhere.

            • weka 15.1.4.2.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 1:59 pm

              I have friends that are full down the rabbit hole. I've spent time in the past two years talking with them, listening, so that I might understand. There's a difference between understanding and not pushing back politically, and it's possible to do both. I think that until lefties are willing to understand what is going on, we will basically not know what to do.

              Here's one of my guesses: there will be people there who feel very strongly that the government is getting things wrong. And, they will be only peripherally aware of the alt right. So it's not hard to prioritise their own political and social needs.

              I have friends who distrust the MSM, the government and the left. They're getting their information from entirely different places than you and I.

    • Robert Guyton 15.2
      19 February 2022 at 11:36 am

      So, gsays – the situation is unfolding in a way that favours you (it seems from your comments). You seem happy that some predictions made here have turned out wrong, and that the occupation is swelling.

      Do you believe the present situation has come about through good planning by the people on the lawn at Parliament? If so, which people?

      • gsays 15.2.1
        19 February 2022 at 12:08 pm

        Sorry Robert. I have no Intel on the organisers, just a buddy on the ground who seems well connected. With the few things he has told me and how they have unfolded.

        There is at least typical Kiwi ingenuity and adaptability evident eg dealing with Mallards efforts. Planning in the potaloos, laundry and kitchen facilities.

        Looking back I think a lot here will admit to underestimating the impact of coercion and mandates on those around them and the folk who feel left behind or not selected for the team of 5 million.

        There is a lot of hurt. Hurt not articulated in the legacy media.

    • Robert Guyton 16.1
      19 February 2022 at 12:05 pm

      Well now, that's charming.

      As a councillor, I now read that I'm to be arrested and tried by the "troops".

      Those of you who are "et cetera" might give pause for thought also.

      • Poission 16.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 12:18 pm

        Under the three waters mandate your responsibilities and income as a councillor are to be disestablished ,you are going to be laid off anyway.

        • Blade 16.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 12:37 pm

          laugh A mighty Totara is about to fall.

        • Robert Guyton 16.1.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 2:02 pm

          You reveal that you know very little about the issue.

          3-Waters is not a regional council concern. It's a matter for the territorial authorities.

          You're welcome.

  17. coge 17
    19 February 2022 at 12:06 pm

    The state Covid mandates are currently being framed as Jim Crow styled legislation. Segregation, no matter how it's dressed up, is a turd that can't be polished. The mandates need to be brought to a rapid conclusion. If segregation is seen as a solution, a better solution needs to be found.

    • joe90 17.1
      19 February 2022 at 12:20 pm

      The state Covid mandates are currently being framed as Jim Crow styled legislation. Segregation,

      From yellow stars to this, always the fucking victims.There is no bottom.

    • Andrew Miller 17.2
      19 February 2022 at 12:47 pm

      And we capitulate to the people spinning this absurd framing, because….

      Ending public health measures because a bunch of bullies have held us all to ransom is a recipe for future disasters.

    • DS 17.3
      19 February 2022 at 2:03 pm

      "No jab, no job," is not Jim Crow. It's about consequences of choices. If you choose to endanger society through your own stupidity, society will respond in kind.

      If you're upset about discrimination… get vaccinated. Problem solved.

  18. tsmithfield 18
    19 February 2022 at 12:41 pm

    I think the problem for the government with the protest, and also other factors, such as Little not being aware that health workers were going on strike

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/covid-19-andrew-little-blindsided-by-news-10-000-healthcare-workers-will-go-on-strike.html,

    and other factors such as the lack of RAT tests,

    is that the government is looking like they are losing control of the whole pandemic situation.

    Perhaps they would be better to organise some sort of Stalanistic crackdown on the protest because at least they would look like they are exerting some control, even though the optics would be terrible.

  19. Andrew Miller 19
    19 February 2022 at 12:43 pm

    Whenever this is concluded, whenever that may be, serious questions have to be asked of the Police and their capacity to have plans in place for dealing with major incidents.
    Journalist were able to do digging and get a sense of who exactly was involved, their views and their likely actions.
    Lots of people predicted the potential of this spiraling in the way it has, so we’re not talking just 20/20 hindsight.
    This really does make ‘Police Intelligence’ sound like an oxymoron.
    Should the Police has acted from the off as if this way likely? That’s a moot point, but having plans in place to move quickly based on having thought through potential scenarios isn’t. They’ve come across as a largely impotent institution that can only react to events once it’s too late.

    They’ve been caught on the hop, dug themselves a huge hole and much of their public statements are banalities designed only to try and cover up the embarrassment that they’ve lost control.
    Accepting the idea that there’s little that could have been done to prevent us ending up where we are now has serious implications for the future and in particular our capacity to deal with something potentially far worse.

  20. Shanreagh 20
    19 February 2022 at 12:43 pm

    I really don't have a view on who is organising left ot right or whoever….it is not relevant. And neither is who are following.

    But really when there are discussions and a list of people to be executed don't thinking and aware people leave? Or is this OK now? They might all have been a little over wrought?

    Cricklewood why don't you ask for a copy of the list from last night of those on the execution list. Not to publish it here as I don't think it has been published, but rather passed to the Police, but to verify that the happy clappy crowd may not be all it seems.

    • Andrew Miller 20.1
      19 February 2022 at 12:51 pm

      This!

      I’ve yet to hear a serious answer as to why this supposedly reasonable, decent and moderate majority have no duty to distance themselves from or help deal with what is no merely odious, but criminal behaviour.

      • observer 20.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 1:11 pm

        There's an obvious problem with these claims of the "vast majority" being peaceful and rejecting the alt-right messaging. It's an own goal.

        Let's say it really is true. That's good.

        But if they really are the "vast majority" then they have power. Strength in numbers. They don't have to be the lone hero in front of a tank, they only have to agree with all the people around them (supposedly). Easy.

        Now, it would be hard to force Counterspin & co to leave, and not wanting a physical confrontation with them is understandable. But somebody from this "vast majority" could (at any time) stand up and speak on the mic, telling Wellington and the world that the far right are not welcome, that they should pack up and go home, and of course the "vast majority" – being peace-loving and all that – would cheer.

        Wouldn't they?

        Unless of course …

        • Andrew Miller 20.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 1:25 pm

          You’re not supposed to ask these questions or make these observations, just accept claims that the presence of the appalling people has been vastly overstated at face value and move on.

        • weka 20.1.1.2
          19 February 2022 at 1:47 pm

          this presumes that the people protesting have more to gain by pushing back on the far right, than by carrying on ignoring them.

          You are espousing left wing values, but most people there won't be left wing in that sense. My best guess is it's a range of people who are libertarian, and apolitical.

          • Shanreagh 20.1.1.2.1
            19 February 2022 at 2:00 pm

            Does this excuse them not saying 'well I don't agree with the mandates but I also don't support death threats to people……time I left? ' That is not a leftie view but a commonsense view especially from those families of children there and I noticed several cars, loaded up with children and camping gear and the flags on their way to Wellington yesterday.

            Have people thrown out their moral compass. Moral compass is not a left or right concept.

          • Andrew Miller 20.1.1.2.2
            19 February 2022 at 5:54 pm

            Fine, but I just think it’s extremely childish to think you can continue to associate with odious people and their criminal behaviour and then throw a tantrum when people point out it tarnished theme whole thing.
            That applies regardless of people’s politics.

            • Shanreagh 20.1.1.2.2.1
              19 February 2022 at 7:33 pm

              Got it in one. Look at movements such as Jim Jones, Branch Davidians/Waco Charles Manson and further back the original Nazis. Think about what happens if you are bombarded with messages, when you are tired and the effects of the Stockholm syndrome. All of these can sap integrity and the ability to think for oneself.

              The ability for good people to get up and go seems to have got up and left. Possibly days ago.

  22. observer 22
    19 February 2022 at 1:24 pm

    From the Stuff live updates, the ongoing march in Christchurch:

    At the end of the march, protesters are openly challenging anyone wearing a mask. A Stuff reporter covering the protest was called ‘"scum". It is a tense atmosphere.

    Wearing a mask is nothing to do with any vaccine mandates. It is exercising freedom.

    But these protesters don't like freedom.

  23. Adrian 23
    19 February 2022 at 1:31 pm

    Two ways to turn the tide of tacit support for the occupiers crowd, the first is to name and shame, publish photos, names and histories of the unhinged so that the country knows who it is dealing with. No legal issues, it’s done in almost every shop in the country with their Wall of Arseholes. It worked on Phillip Arps, the Neo-Nazi, when he was outed by the Chch Press last week, he ran away like a vampire at dawn.

    Secondly, it is an offence to not be available for work if on the dole, cancel the dole for anyone getting it who is there, and don’t be surprised by how many that is. Maybe then those middle class righties who are constantly complaining about how much it costs them won’t be so keen to give any support.

    On that note, an item I heard about the Give a Little page set up for the unhinged last week was closed by the organisers as it breached their no illegal gains rule. In what may be a far more reliable guide to the amount of actual support than a “poll” where you could win a gewgaw on participation it had gained the astronomical sum of about $1000, a cat stuck up a tree can easily nudge 10 grand.
    So maybe the money is coming from the US, time to confiscate it like the Canadiens did as it was foreign money up to no good in another country.

    • weka 23.1
      19 February 2022 at 1:44 pm

      It worked on Phillip Arps, the Neo-Nazi, when he was outed by the Chch Press last week, he ran away like a vampire at dawn.

      What happened? He's at the Chch protest yesterday (links in yesterday's thread).

    • Belladonna 23.2
      19 February 2022 at 1:49 pm

      Secondly, it is an offence to not be available for work if on the dole, cancel the dole for anyone getting it who is there, and don’t be surprised by how many that is. Maybe then those middle class righties who are constantly complaining about how much it costs them won’t be so keen to give any support.

      I'm sorry, but this has been the right wing cry over every protest that I've been aware of for the last 30 years! It's all those dole bludgers/sickness beneficiaries/OAPs! Protesting on our tax dollars! Take away their money, so they can't afford to protest!

      Do you hear what you're saying?

      And, if the argument is that this is not a legitimate protest – that is a very, very slippery slope to allow the government-of-the-day to determine.

      To be clear: No, I do not want the Government to have the power to cancel someone's benefit because the Government don't approve of their political actions. That is a whole series of bridges too far.

      By all means encourage (even require) the police to take immediate action over people uttering sustained threats; but the right to protest (no matter how silly the cause – and there have been some doozies over the years) is a critical part of our democracy.

  24. Adrian 24
    19 February 2022 at 1:59 pm

    To Belladonna, I should have been more precise, as I understand the protest has become an illegal activity because of the actions of many of the participants and therefore there are fair grounds for cancellation.

    To Weka, Phillip Arps was reported to be on the way to Wellington on his way through Picton, I presume he got there but may have been denied transit on vaccination grounds.

    Note, IPads, well mine anyway, don’t allow direct replies.

    • Shanreagh 24.1
      19 February 2022 at 2:04 pm

      He went to Picton, originally to pay a flying visit to the Wellington protest but was stymied on vax pass grounds and I linked on here to a picture of him with several of his supporters in Picton. He mentioned he had to get back to Chch on Friday, I thought also for court action on his threatening to kill charge and also of course to attend the protest down there.

    • Belladonna 24.2
      19 February 2022 at 2:17 pm

      All disruptive protests are technically an illegal activity (blocking roads, cycling on the motorway, occupying public or private spaces – are all against the law).

      If there are people who are a direct threat to others, then the police should take action against those individuals. But not a reason to cancel a protest.

      Again, I don't want to establish a precedent that the Government can just decide to cancel protests – that they can determine what is a legitimate protest.
      Because, I flat-out-guarantee that no Government ever is going to be happy about protesting.

  25. Adrian 25
    19 February 2022 at 3:24 pm

    Thanks Shanreagh and Bella, I’ve been on heaps of protests over 50 years, all for the concern for the suffering of others ,Vietnam, Apartheid etc etc,and have no issues with protesting but this one is different. Firstly it is manipulated by far right entities in the US who may have circumstantial links to Putins asymmetrical warfare units, see Bannon, QAnon et al, it is a selfish idealism, shits wanting to not be protected from Covid so that others who are vulnerable have less protection They are rabid dogs.

    And my point was that they are not available for work which is a legal condition for claiming the dole.

    • Belladonna 25.1
      19 February 2022 at 4:01 pm

      And my point was that they are not available for work which is a legal condition for claiming the dole.

      But do you want that established as a reason to cancel benefits? (remembering that WINZ don't see any difference between unemployment and sickness benefits)

      Because it's going to have a significant chilling effect on future protests – and once a precedent is established, bureaucratically, then it's really hard to get it reversed.

    • Rosemary McDonald 25.2
      19 February 2022 at 4:27 pm

      Firstly it is manipulated by far right entities in the US who may have circumstantial links to Putins asymmetrical warfare units, see Bannon, QAnon et al,

      Evidence to support these statements…?

      …shits wanting to not be protected from Covid so that others who are vulnerable have less protection

      A very confused statement…do you care to clarify?

      They are rabid dogs. Well, that's pretty clear. Tell me Adrian…what have we protestors done to you to make you hate us so?

      • Adrian 25.2.1
        19 February 2022 at 5:25 pm

        Your selfishness. Not prepared to lessen your chances of passing on a disease that has killed millions and incapacitated many millions more. And being so stupid as to be manipulated by neo-Nazis and White Power zealots into attacking a government that has prevented thousands of deaths and misery on NZers and forced overworked nurses to work in exhausting conditions, try wearing full PPE for 12 hours, looking after imbeciles who could have avoided being there. Last week in an ICU she worked for 14 hours, grabbed some sleep in a 6 hour break and did another 9 hours overnight, because other nurses were sick and burnt out and shes not far off that and she is 65. So fuck you and your preciousness and stupidity.

  26. Ad 26
    19 February 2022 at 4:14 pm

    There's now a Rhythm and Rights concert planned, copying off the Amnesty International name.

    This is now a rapidly expanding protest getting its groove on.

    And all it would take is for Ardern to deign to talk to talk to them.

    • Andrew Miller 26.1
      19 February 2022 at 6:02 pm

      No it wouldn’t.
      Some might bugger off, but there’s more chance of Winston riding naked at the front of the protestors leading them out of Parliament on a unicorn than talking to them bring it to an end.
      When she inevitably says “I hear you, but no” what then?

  27. swordfish 27
    19 February 2022 at 4:29 pm

    .

    Interesting Curia poll (client: Family First) (fieldwork: Feb 16-17 2022)

    Vaccine-Poll-Results-February-2022.pdf (familyfirst.org.nz)

    Respondents split down the middle (with significant Unsure/Refuse numbers) on whether Employers should be able to sack unvaccinated staff members (39% support / 38% oppose) … a plurality of men support such a sacking / plurality of women oppose … majority of over-60s support / plurality of under-60s oppose … Rurals oppose / Provincial City dwellers support / Metros evenly divided … Green voters 51% Support / 15% Oppose / 34% Unsure-refuse … Labour voters 42% Support / 31% Oppose / 27% Unsure-refuse … National voters 38% Support / 44% Oppose / 18% Unsure-refuse … ACT voters 20% Support / 60% Oppose / 20% Unsure-refuse … the Triple vaccinated support / whereas the Double, Single & Unvaccinated oppose.

    A number of other interesting questions / data.

    David Farrar suggests:

    Around a third of those vaccinated said vaccine mandate or pass requirements was a large factor in their decision.

    (as opposed to the protection of personal health or the health of others)

    • observer 27.1
      19 February 2022 at 4:39 pm

      ACT voters strongly opposing the right of private business to decide the grounds for dismissal is a result for the ages.

      • Belladonna 27.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 6:50 pm

        Hmmm I think it's much more that ACT voters strongly oppose the right of government to dictate to private business over the grounds for dismissal.

        I know that isn’t exactly the question – but I bet that’s how they’re interpreting it.

        Which is bang on their policy platform.

        ACT don't care if an individual business owner imposes a vaccine mandate on staff (and even on customers) – presumably some would regard this as a useful point of difference, and want to appeal to that market. But they do care, greatly, when the government imposes the ban and makes businesses liable for enforcing it.

        Especially, when they're losing good staff, have reduced margins for operating, and increased costs – all associated with the mandate.

        Really, not at all surprised by the ACT voter percentages.

    • Belladonna 27.2
      19 February 2022 at 6:53 pm

      I find the numbers of unsure/refuse in all voter groups particularly interesting.

      Completely unscientific, but I bet those numbers were a lot lower 2 months ago.

  28. The Chairman 28
    19 February 2022 at 4:35 pm

    Dame Tariana, who revealed she is not vaccinated against COVID-19, said she had "no confidence" in Ardern and made reference to her former role as president of the International Union of Socialist Youth.

    "I have no confidence in her. I've seen a video of her that was on TV a while ago where she was doing almost the 'Heil Hilter' salute as a young socialist," Dame Tariana told RNZ.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2022/02/dame-tariana-turia-has-no-confidence-in-socialist-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-over-bullying-of-protesters.html

    • observer 28.1
      19 February 2022 at 4:42 pm

      I can't believe you're bringing that one up. Anyone who listened to it would really just feel a bit sad for Tariana.

      But if you want to run with "Jacinda? Is she a Nazi? Exclusive on page 5", then sure.

      • The Chairman 28.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 4:46 pm

        Just keeping up with all this talk about Nazis.

        They seem to be everywheresmiley

        • Cricklewood 28.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 5:15 pm

          and here's me not even able to find just one… must be the rose tinted glasses…

          • The Chairman 28.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 5:24 pm

            The reality down there is nothing like what some here are trying to paint.

            There will be a good party vibe tonight. Enjoy.

            Go get yourself some free food.

            Power to the people!

            • Andrew Miller 28.1.1.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 6:12 pm

              Man who appears to live in a world where confirmation bias doesn’t exist says “Hey, I been down there and only saw things that confirmed my prior beliefs”.

            • Peter 28.1.1.1.1.2
              19 February 2022 at 8:26 pm

              I saw on the TV news tonight a guy who was out to make a video of the positive side of the protest was attacked.

              • Andrew Miller …
                19 February 2022 at 9:38 pm

                By the protestors?

              • The Chairman …
                19 February 2022 at 9:47 pm

                What was the context?

                Who attacked them?

                Why were they attacked?

                Were they known to them?

                Had they wronged them in the past?

                Were they caught in between the scuffle today?

                Who started it?

                How did it start?

                Did you see the whole context?

                How bad was it?

                Was anybody arrested/charged?

                • McFlock …
                  19 February 2022 at 9:55 pm

                  Looking real hard for any possible reason to ignore it or write it off if something happened, aintcha.

                  Like with every other incident someone's brought up or linked to.

          • Andrew Miller 28.1.1.1.2
            19 February 2022 at 6:09 pm

            Given your credibility ship sailed with only true believers on board days ago, I’m not quite sure why you both pointing that out.

    • Tricledrown 28.2
      20 February 2022 at 10:45 am

      Tariana Turia is letting Maori down looking at MOH stats Maori make up the largest numbers per head of population infected ,hospitalised.

  29. Ffloyd 29
    19 February 2022 at 4:36 pm

    Ad. And if our Prime Minister ‘deigns’ to meet them and she doesn’t agree to their demands,what then? Will they pick up their gear and get out of dodge. Not very likely. As for a thousand supposedly protesting against mandates I would hazard a guess that at least 2/3rds are there for other agendas. The Police will know a lot of them by reputation in the protest area and these people won’t all be singing Kumbaya and blowing pretty bubbles. There will be a reason for the softly, softly approach of the Police Force and it won’t be because they are afraid of the initial genuine protestors but afraid FOR them and their children as the other factions start agitating for a violent end to this illegal occupation. Wouldn’t be pretty.

    • The Chairman 29.1
      19 February 2022 at 5:02 pm

      Jacinda has conceded she will drop the mandate at some stage.

      So perhaps they can work something out.

      But working something out first requires the Government to enter into talks.

      • McFlock 29.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 5:04 pm

        Oh FFS

        Of course "the mandate" will end "at some stage". The pandemic will eventually end.

        But hopefully these pricks will fuck off before then.

        • The Chairman 29.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 5:18 pm

          But hopefully these pricks will fuck off before then.

          The sooner the Government get round the table (they created this) and negotiate a deal, the sooner they will leave.

          They (the Government) shouldn't be expecting the police to clean up a problem they (via their policy) created.

          • McFlock 29.1.1.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 5:29 pm

            The government should remove public health restrictions when the public health emergency is over, not because a bunch of fuckwits are whinging.

            "Negotiate a deal". Government on one side of the table, covid on the other.

            • The Chairman 29.1.1.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 5:58 pm

              The government should remove public health restrictions when the public health emergency is over.

              That will no doubt be up for discussion for sure.

              Pressure is building. This protest has struck a cord, encouraging more to stand up.

              It would be wiser for the Government to get around the table now, rather than wait till support against the Government further grows.

              • McFlock …
                19 February 2022 at 6:00 pm

                Do you want to remove public health restrictions while they are still necessary?

                If not, what's to negotiate?

                • The Chairman …
                  19 February 2022 at 6:17 pm

                  While they are still necessary?

                  When they will be deemed no longer necessary will also be up for discussion.

                  • McFlock …
                    19 February 2022 at 6:23 pm

                    Sorry, public health requirements don't bend to suit whatever reality protesters have been smoking. Covid doesn't give a shit about your political beliefs.

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 February 2022 at 10:01 pm

                      Public health requirements have and will continue to evolve.

                      And it seems there are now some valid points for learning to live with it, as you know via this link below.

                      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300521304/covid19-top-gp-calls-for-change-in-mindset-in-how-nz-lives-with-virus

                    • McFlock …
                      19 February 2022 at 10:32 pm

                      “The pandemic will come to an end in the next six to 12 months. That’s not to say Covid-19 will disappear – it won’t. However, we will learn to live with it in the same way we do with colds and flu,” Betty said in a statement issued by the Royal NZ College of GPs.

                      In six to twelve months, live with it. Don't ignore other conditions. Sure, Betty said that.

                      He didn't demand an end to the mandates or threaten to hang the PM, or did I miss that bit on the statement?

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 February 2022 at 10:55 pm

                      He didn't demand an end to the mandates

                      He said

                      We will learn to live with it in the same way we do with colds and flu.

                      There were no mandates (as now) when living with colds and flu.

                      Or threaten to hang the PM, or did I miss that bit on the statement?

                      I don't believe the vast majority are there for that. So it is irrelevant.

                    • McFlock …
                      20 February 2022 at 3:37 pm

                      Then the vast majority are happy to stand by while those threats are made. Thanks for the clarification.

                      But the only way Betty's comments can support the vast majority and the murderous tiny minority is if they fuck off for "six to twelve months".

                  • Shanreagh …
                    19 February 2022 at 8:01 pm

                    So following sound public health advice is down the tubes & we follow irrational people instead. That is bound to be a win win all round /s.

                • Andrew Miller …
                  19 February 2022 at 6:27 pm

                  Yes, of course they do.
                  They also know that it’s not going to happen and therefore negotiating is pointless.
                  The posting is entirely in bad faith.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    19 February 2022 at 8:11 pm

                    Yes I suspect that all of the postings from this person are in bad faith and taste.

                    • Andrew Miller …
                      19 February 2022 at 9:43 pm

                      As this is on line it’s really difficult to if it’s

                      A. Entirely made up by someone far away from Parliament with an agenda.

                      B. An extreme example of confirmation bias by someone who otherwise isn’t a bad person.

                      C. Someone who is actually down there, knows perfectly well they’re lying but is happy to keep it up as it serves their purpose and there’s enough people will to engage in B. to make it worth while.

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 February 2022 at 10:13 pm

                      Yes I suspect that all of the postings from this person are in bad faith and taste.

                      I'm one alternative voice to some of the echo-chamber we have here.

                      The distain for alternative opinions here is shocking. What the hell is wrong with you people?

                      A least it gives people an insight to what some here are like.

                  • The Chairman …
                    19 February 2022 at 10:06 pm

                    They also know that it’s not going to happen

                    Do you now speak for the Government?

                    It needs to happen so this can be put to rest and we can all move on.

                    Do you see any other alternative?

              • Shanreagh …
                19 February 2022 at 8:09 pm

                The government should remove public health restrictions when the public health emergency is over.

                PM has already said this in relation to mandates and Govt enacting it in relation to borders, travel and MIQ.

                Pressure is building. This protest has struck a cord, encouraging more to stand up.

                I'm pleased you say that about cords. I am sure that many would think that trying to reason with wood at the protest is hard to do.

                It would be wiser for the Government to get around the table now, rather than wait till support against the Government further grows.

                Actually you and the protestors seem to be a bit behind the eight ball here.

                But most of all I am interested in how you reconciled the idea of having an opinion favouring this group, whoever they are, with the list of people they wish to kill (hang) that was drawn up last night. Was it difficult to put this to one side? What about the call for Nuremberg trials? You think this is appropriate?

                How do you know you are not a dupe?

                • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                  19 February 2022 at 9:15 pm

                  I'm pleased you say that about cords.

                  Naughty, Shanreagh, it isn not fair to poke fun at The Chairs ignorance!

                  Though all these conspiracy rabbit-holers deserve it!

                • The Chairman …
                  19 February 2022 at 10:41 pm

                  The government should remove public health restrictions when the public health emergency is over.

                  Isn't it while they are still necessary?

                  Additionally, Isn't travel loosening up? And aren't MIQ. restriction loosening up? Yet, the public health emergency isn't over is it?

                  Actually you and the protestors seem to be a bit behind the eight ball here.

                  How so?

                  But most of all I am interested in how you reconciled the idea of having an opinion favouring this group, whoever they are, with the list of people they wish to kill (hang) that was drawn up last night. Was it difficult to put this to one side?

                  First off, you are talking about a large group of people that are part of this protest. Are you telling me this whole group (everyone of them) of people put up a hit list? Or was it more like one person?

                  Do you think I'm a dupe?

                  • Shanreagh …
                    20 February 2022 at 12:59 am

                    Do you think I'm a dupe?

                    I am sorry but I do. Or else unbelievably naive. Or else cunning in that you do not give any actual information despite posting frequently. You ask frequent questions that have been asked and answered before.

                    For instance many days ago the PM said mandates would be lifted when the need did not exist and yet you say earlier on the thread today that the PM had 'conceded'. As if this was a) news or b) a concession. Hint it was neither.

                    She had not conceded anything she had stated, she was following the exact same path as happened with the borders. When the health need no longer existed the mandates would be lifted. So that is why I say you and the protestors are behind the 8 ball if you are both treating lifting the mandates as new info and a concession.

                    Re the list: There was a meeting on 18/2/22 in the main tent, whatever that is, when the list was discussed and hanging agreed to as the best method. So I gather there was participation by a wide group of people and I guess a scribe wrote up the list. It has appeared on twitter and I think was put out by Counterspin.

                    You can find the list on
                    https://www.change.org/
                    in the petition to go home now at
                    Tell the Wellington Protestors to Go Home – They are NOT the majority now at 61,500 apx.

          • Drowsy M. Kram 29.1.1.1.2
            19 February 2022 at 5:29 pm

            The sooner the Government get round the table…

            "All parties in Parliament have united under a clear declaration to the protesters outside – there will be no dialogue while illegal activity persists."

            And so our wait begins…

            (they created this)

            Agreed, our government, with the assistance of experts and the team of nearly five million, has crafted a highly effective response to the threats posed by the pandemic – not perfect, by any means, but better than most.

            Would they consider tossing the vaccine mandate strategy into the gutter as case numbers continue to rise – do you think that’s likely?

            The PM has stated that vaccine mandates will end; probably be wound down in stages, like MIQ. I hope that the timing will be determined by public health considerations, rather than the ‘protesters.’

            • The Chairman 29.1.1.1.2.1
              19 February 2022 at 5:46 pm

              There is no guarantee to get round the table with that offer.

              Tell Jacinda to try again.

              PS

              While you are at it, tell her not to follow Mark Mitchell (just in case Labour are getting any ideas about replacing the police commissioner) re what he is saying about the police commissioner.

              https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-convoy-parliament-protest-calls-for-mayor-to-step-up-as-police-backtrack-on-towing-focus-on-de-escalation/6QI4TLG27OP5HF4CUHBWEL74IE/

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 February 2022 at 6:09 pm

                There is no guarantee to get round the table with that offer.

                If 'protesters' really want dialogue, they know what to do – no mystery there.

                Tell Jacinda to try again.

                Given that The Chairman is "more left than most", wouldn’t our PM be at least as likely to listen to you? Why don’t you tell her?

                I can understand how our left-leaning Government teaming up with opposition National and ACT parties might stick in your craw, but this show of political unanimity is a rare treat imho.

                • The Chairman …
                  19 February 2022 at 6:40 pm

                  I can understand how our left-leaning Government teaming up with opposition National and ACT parties might stick in your craw, but this show of political unanimity is a rare treat imho.

                  It's no surprise to me. Just another example of the power of the elite.

                  This is a people movement. Hence the state unites.

                  Why don’t you tell her?

                  I don't have her ear.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 February 2022 at 7:07 pm

                    Imho Parliament should offer to fund a protester-initiated binding referendum on ending the vaccine mandates – would be up to the protesters to set the question and agree which mandates, and when.

                    Chair, you seem to have a fair sense of the protesters’ motivations – do you think they might be stupid enough to put their demands to a democratic vote? Or do the ‘protesters’ not ‘believe’ in democracy right now?

                  • Shanreagh …
                    19 February 2022 at 7:57 pm

                    Good grief…..a people movement, power of the elite next you will be mentioning the lizard people and how 9/11 didn't happen. Have you got a view on the grassy knoll and who was there…no,.no don't worry I am not suggesting that one of your new mates was there.

                    Did you ask to see the list of those to be hung that was discussed last night? Are they all in agreement about hanging as the method…..is this better for the children to look at?

                    What about the break ins at the Runanga offices and Poneke …how was that discussed with everyone. Was everyone on board with that?

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 February 2022 at 7:59 pm

                  Given that The Chairman is "more left than most", wouldn’t our PM be at least as likely to listen to you? Why don’t you tell her?

                  Could have fooled me. Left leaning you say?

            • The Chairman 29.1.1.1.2.2
              19 February 2022 at 6:32 pm

              Would they consider tossing the vaccine mandate strategy into the gutter as case numbers continue to rise – do you think that’s likely?

              Could very well be.

              Bryan Betty, who is medical director of the Royal college, said with Covid unlikely to disappear from our lives any time soon, it needs to become something Kiwis learn to live with.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300521304/covid19-top-gp-calls-for-change-in-mindset-in-how-nz-lives-with-virus

              I hope that the timing will be determined by public health considerations

              It's looking that way going off the link above.

              Has crafted a highly effective response to the threats posed by the pandemic – not perfect, by any means, but better than most.

              Looks like it's time to move on from that now.

              • Drowsy M. Kram …
                19 February 2022 at 7:21 pm

                Looks like it's time to move on from that now.

                Why? My view is that caution is still the name of the pandemic ‘game’ – no sudden moves, eh?

                While I’m loath to suggest that the popular vote should determine public health policy during a pandemic, maybe that’s the only way out of the current impasse.

                • The Chairman …
                  19 February 2022 at 7:30 pm

                  My view is that it's too soon to move on

                  That's merely your view. Are you part of the team that actually makes that call?

                  Why not put it to a vote?

                  I doubt a vote here would have any impact on the actual decision.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 February 2022 at 7:44 pm

                    Looks like it's time to move on from that now.

                    I doubt a vote here would have any impact on the actual decision.

                    These are merely your views. My question remains, do you think that the 'protesters' would agree to a referendum that is binding on both 'sides' (the 'protesters' and Parliament), and if not, why not?

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 February 2022 at 11:04 pm

                      My question remains, do you think that the 'protesters' would agree to a referendum that is binding on both 'sides' (the 'protesters' and Parliament), and if not, why not?

                      That is something the Government will have to discover once they (the Government) finally decide come to the table.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    19 February 2022 at 11:41 pm

                    That is something the Government will have to discover once they (the Government) finally decide come to the table.

                    Chair, as you know, the Govt and indeed all parliamentary parties have agreed "there will be no dialogue while illegal activity persists."

                    The 'ball' is now in the protesters' court – any protester response that results in increased illegal activity is unlikely to bring the Government, or Parliament, closer to 'the table.' Maybe things will change in a month or two, once NZ is well past ‘peak Omicron.’ Time will tell.

      • lprent 29.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 5:58 pm

        I can’t see any reason for that to happen. As much as anything else because there appears to be no clear path amongst the protesters that I have heard about what they would like to happen. Frankly this lot makes the Occupy Auckland group look like a coherent and well organised articulate movement – which it wasn’t. I wound up reading screeds of bumf in comments about just how dysfunctional it was and how people were sabotaging the movement – from the people on site for months.

        Whatever the government actually agrees to and does (assuming that the protesters could find a group to negotiate on an agreement – which seems unlikely) it will only please a small proportion of the protesters.

        Whatever it is will also almost certainly piss off an awful lot of voters (including Labour voters) because it will endanger them, their families, and their friends. It took a lot of work to get a concurrence across most of the community about what was happening and why. Wasting that for a group who can barely articulate what they disagree with and why – becasue that I what I see – is not going to be either popular nor productive.

        It will certainly piss off people who usually vote Labour – me for instance.

        • The Chairman 29.1.2.1
          19 February 2022 at 6:12 pm

          I can’t see any reason for that to happen. As much as anything else because there appears to be no clear path amongst the protesters that I have heard about what they would like to happen.

          There is a link to their demands on the top of this thread.

          https://thestandard.org.nz/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/Convoy-letter-of-demands-cropped.jpg?x22258

          Whatever the government actually agrees to and does (assuming that the protesters could find a group to negotiate on an agreement – which seems unlikely) it will only please a small proportion of the protesters.

          As they say, you can't please everyone all the time. However, one would assume they will only have to please the majority. And I have confidence if the Government came to the table, they (the protesters) will have a team to put forward .

          It will certainly piss off people who usually vote Labour

          I think it already has from what I've seen on here.

          • Andrew Miller 29.1.2.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 6:36 pm

            If Labour capitulates to the intimidation and gave in to any of those demands it would be the last time they received my vote for a very long time.

            • The Chairman 29.1.2.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 6:42 pm

              If Labour capitulates to the intimidation and gave in to any of those demands it would be the last time they received my vote for a very long time.

              Who cares?

              • Andrew Miller …
                19 February 2022 at 6:50 pm

                I suspect you’ll find my view is far more representative that yours.

                I’m also slightly curious as to why you’re here as surely you realise everyone sees your postings as simply lie upon lie.

                • The Chairman …
                  19 February 2022 at 6:55 pm

                  I suspect you’ll find my view is far more representative that yours.

                  So what?

                  I’m also slightly curious as to why you’re here

                  I'm here expressing my free speech. Even if it is less representative than yourscheeky

                  • Muttonbird …
                    19 February 2022 at 8:09 pm

                    A strange fish. The main thing I remember you for is your opposition to legislation by this government, or any other, to make tenancies warmer, drier, and more secure for tenants.

                    You don't seem to like it when government wants to protect the vulnerable.

                    Now, you are a pig in muck with this anti-everything protest, again determined to fight a government which wants to protect the vulnerable.

                    Weird.

                    • McFlock …
                      19 February 2022 at 8:16 pm

                      Now, you are a pig in muck with this anti-everything protest

                      Speaking of which, have they changed the pea-straw and shovelled everything else out regularly?

                    • The Chairman …
                      19 February 2022 at 8:43 pm

                      A strange fish. The main thing I remember you for is your opposition to legislation by this government, or any other, to make tenancies warmer, drier, and more secure for tenants.

                      Yes, due to its potential to add to rent pressure. Moreover, it's potential to rob people of the ability of finding, below Government standard, but far cheaper, flats.

                      And what happened to rents between then and now?

                      You don't seem to like it when government wants to protect the vulnerable.

                      Is allowing people the right to decide what standard and relating price they are willing to pay not better protecting them opposed to forcing them into higher standard, thus potentially higher rent accommodation?

                      Again determined to fight a government which wants to protect the vulnerable.

                      Don't you think there are any vulnerable people at the protest?

                      Moreover, don't you think the Government is lacking in it's response to the vulnerable in general?

                    • Muttonbird …
                      19 February 2022 at 8:50 pm

                      That's the other thing I remember. You say, "moreover" a lot. Why not just say, "also"?

          • observer 29.1.2.1.2
            19 February 2022 at 7:15 pm

            Today new demands were announced (Newshub, tonight)

            – End the mandates by March 1 2022

            – Negotiation on March 1 with the Government

            – A clear end date to the COVID-19 Health Response Acts and all its amendments

            – Jobs reinstated to those affected by the mandates, and the back pay of wages lost as a result of them

            – If the Government does not revoke the mandates, then Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern needs to resign and new elections be called.

            (end)

            The only slightly conceivable one is the 2nd, only if "negotiation with the government" is defined as "somebody, somewhere has a conversation about a possible conversation". The other 4 obviously will not happen.

            Totally deluded.

            They don't even grasp Negotiating For Dummies: make a demand with a fixed date that's coming up soon, and guess what? Time will pass, and the government wins just by letting the sun rise and set.

            • The Chairman 29.1.2.1.2.1
              19 February 2022 at 7:22 pm

              The only slightly conceivable one is the 2nd…

              Don't be so confident. Things are evolving.

              Wellington doctor Bryan Betty, who is medical director of the Royal college, said with Covid unlikely to disappear from our lives any time soon, it needs to become something Kiwis learn to live with

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300521304/covid19-top-gp-calls-for-change-in-mindset-in-how-nz-lives-with-virus

              • observer …
                19 February 2022 at 7:28 pm

                We'll check in on March 1.

              • Andrew Miller …
                19 February 2022 at 10:00 pm

                Yes and we will, at a time that makes sense from a public health perspective. Right now doesn’t make sense.
                See, I think you know all this and are pure and simple a bad faith actor.
                Quite what your actual agenda is I don’t know (or care) but it’s so patently obvious
                nothing you say can be taken at face value.

                • Shanreagh …
                  19 February 2022 at 10:23 pm

                  Agree.

                  I wonder of The Chairman asked their views on the upsurge in Omicron cases and how their demands fit into his?

                  NB Many of those at the protest deny that Covid exists.

                  Did The Chairman discuss any of this with a Covid denier.

                  Is The Chariman vaxxed and boosted or a Covid denier?

                  In case he feels coy I will start by saying I am not a Covid denier and I am double vaxxed and boosted. I also have the vaccines offered/required of a NZ childhood and vaccines according to the vaccine schedule for overseas travel in the 'olden days'.

                  There……hope that overcomes any shyness.

            • Nic the NZer 29.1.2.1.2.2
              19 February 2022 at 7:43 pm

              Probably big on deadlines today as they suddenly found they needed to clean up their shit to a deadline overnight.

              If the government can give the impression they are being strong armed into an election then their majority should come back larger. It becomes Labour vs which ever actual political party wins as representing the protest (e.g New Conservatives, Outdoors Party?).

              The Chairman only gets the one party vote, will he waste it on part of the status quo (National) which he has been arguing against or actually vote with the protest?

      • Shanreagh 29.1.3
        19 February 2022 at 7:49 pm

        She said that ages ago. And it was not a concession but a statement of fact. Most of us could see that this would be reviewed just as fine tuning has gone on throughout our Covid response Just as the Govt made moves about MIQ and borders and travel when the time seemed right to do so. Has it just sunk in to the people down there?

        The people down there seem to think that now when Omircon is surging is an excellent time to drop mandates? Why would they think this.

        Do you think if Govt said mandates will be dropped in July or October unless we can drop them earlier that the protestors will go home? No because this protest is not about mandates really.

        This is about a threat to the rule of law and the results of an election to give power to a democratically elected Govt. Mandates were just an excuse to get the brute power down, in place, tired and bombarded.

        Dropping your rose tinted specs would do everyone a lot of good….even if you took a moment or two to think:

        'I wonder if they have something there ie that it is not really about mandates or peaceful protest', just as we have had since the beginning of the protest to accept the farce that this is about mandates…….I'm still trying to give this so-called cause the benefit of the doubt.

        • The Chairman 29.1.3.1
          19 February 2022 at 9:33 pm

          The people down there seem to think that now when Omircon is surging is an excellent time to drop mandates? Why would they think this.

          For a number of reasons. And they are not the only ones that think it's time to live with it. Surely you've seen this below?

          Wellington doctor Bryan Betty, who is medical director of the Royal college, said with Covid unlikely to disappear from our lives any time soon, it needs to become something Kiwis learn to live with

          https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/300521304/covid19-top-gp-calls-for-change-in-mindset-in-how-nz-lives-with-virus

          It kind of gives Jacinda a way out of this protest.

          Do you think if Govt said mandates will be dropped in July or October unless we can drop them earlier that the protestors will go home?

          I don't know what their bottom line is and you surely don't speak for them.

          Dropping your rose tinted specs would do everyone a lot of good….even if you took a moment or two to think:

          I don't wear rose tinted specs. You are the one that needs to open your eyes to what is really going on and stop falling for all the online spin and speculation that seems to be floating around.

          • McFlock 29.1.3.1.1
            19 February 2022 at 9:45 pm

            You don't speak for the protesters, and nor do you know what their bottom line is. I mean, you claim to be there, but have managed to avoid seeing anyone so much as uttering an unkind word, from what your comments suggest.

            And yet you speculate about what might give the government "a way out" of this shitshow.

            • Shanreagh 29.1.3.1.1.1
              19 February 2022 at 10:27 pm

              Yes I haven't learned very much from the visit at all. Hope you had a nice outing with the food & the music and that you were able to wear your mask and thus not risk getting covid.

              Back to looking at te kemara who at least can describe what is going on without rose tinted specs.

  30. swordfish 30
    19 February 2022 at 4:58 pm

    National-supporting commentator Liam Hehir covers some interesting ground as an eyewitness today … and suggests the towing may have begun:

    pronounced hare 🐰🏌🏻‍♂️ on Twitter: "Uh oh something is going down. A cop yelled at me to get off the footpath. https://t.co/FczSeQ3oA4" / Twitter

  31. Ffloyd 31
    19 February 2022 at 5:01 pm

    I saw a photo of a man with his lad, dad possibly wearing Counterspin t-shirt entering the Holding Pen for occupiers carrying boxes of food supplies.The most worrying aspect of this photo is that he was carrying a LARGE box of fresh corn. I would hate to be around when THAT hits the fan. Long drop anyone?

    • McFlock 31.1
      19 February 2022 at 5:06 pm

      I'd be more worried about the effects of ergot poisoning in that crowd – they're already delusional enough.

  32. roblogic 32
    19 February 2022 at 5:01 pm

    Thought this was insightful. Jacinda’s good governance has embarrassed useless Righr wing outfits

    https://twitter.com/grumpyyetamusin/status/1494829470305652736?s=21

    • Ad 32.1
      19 February 2022 at 5:20 pm

      She got plenty of praise from the left and centre as well.

      Mostly she's now a target because she's doing a pretty average job these days.

      • Andrew Miller 32.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 6:47 pm

        She may lose votes from an average performance but those ‘targeting’ her are coming from a very different place.

      • Patricia Bremner 32.1.2
        19 February 2022 at 8:03 pm

        Ad In what respect? Some examples…?

      • Graeme 32.1.3
        19 February 2022 at 8:57 pm

        Think our government is copping the same negativity that pretty much every incumbent government anywhere in the world is enduring. In some cases it's justified because they have done a terrible job, but govern through a period that turns most people's lives upside down and it's all the government's fault.

        Bit like managing major civil works through a retail precinct, the locals are going to get pissed off no matter how well you do it.

  33. aj 33
    19 February 2022 at 5:02 pm

    When you consider the ignorant and baseless attacks on our world-leading Covid response by a number of so-called journalists and other commentators from the UK and the USA, this guy has a strong point.

    Snap: robologic beat me to it by a few minutes

  34. McFlock 34
    19 February 2022 at 8:05 pm

    One News report about the peaceful protest.

    The end of it is interesting. What sort of peaceful protest has to have lawyers on hand to try to suppress stories of protester violence?

  35. joe90 35
    19 February 2022 at 8:49 pm

    Hot day in the sun, beverages, a riled up mob and the DPS. All the elements to kick something off.

    https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1494935383192137729

  36. Black Cat Strikes 36
    19 February 2022 at 9:30 pm

    Remembering that the anniversary of the Mosque attacks of three years ago is coming up soon, I was surprised to see the police colluding with protesters in Christchurch. From Stuff's live-blog earlier today:

    The Christchurch rally continues to grow with over 1000 people. Amid chants for freedom protesters on horses have arrived.

    A policeman can be seen taking photos. Another unmasked policeman was seen at the protest hugging protesters without a mask on.

    Stuff asked the police officer about the hug. He said it was a mistake.

    – Reporting by Nadine Porter

    The police are making their support obvious now.

  37. PsyclingLeft.Always 37
    19 February 2022 at 10:10 pm

    National front….ChCh . Just your kinda peaceful, chill, nazi mandate protestors

    https://twitter.com/Te_Taipo/status/1494847617712361473/photo/1

  39. joe90 39
    19 February 2022 at 10:39 pm

    I think this bloke is right.
    Sadly, I think something like the catastrophe that cost Judge Darcey Hayes his life is inevitable, too.

    https://thurstonmills.medium.com/the-inevitability-of-violence-in-wellington-d157261e024f

    • McFlock 39.1
      19 February 2022 at 10:58 pm

      Article makes some good points.

      Who was Darcey Hayes? Doesn't google well for me.

      • Joe90 39.1.1
        19 February 2022 at 11:03 pm

        Judge Darcey Hayes was the toddler who drowned during the occupation of Pākaitore.

        • McFlock 39.1.1.1
          19 February 2022 at 11:17 pm

          damn. I was expecting a depressing story about a judge, a toddler's even worse.

          Vaguely recollect that protest now – other end of the country.

  40. Shanreagh 40
    19 February 2022 at 10:58 pm

    Some words of good advice from a Dr and 7 or so followups.

    https://twitter.com/DocPNW/status/1494878685593477125

  41. roblogic 41
    20 February 2022 at 12:07 am

    Gotta say, kiwiblog is even more disgraceful than usual with Farrar's sly approvals of the insurrection mob, and the commenters spouting unhinged science denial, egged on by his awful downvote/post-hiding feature that drowns out sensible commentary under the resounding echoes of right wing hatred.

  42. Shanreagh 42
    20 February 2022 at 1:39 am

    Here is some hot off the press news about a trial on Ivermectin, and surprise surprise

    'The antiparasitic drug ivermectin doesn't prevent severe disease from Covid-19 any more effectively than symptom management and close observation by medical professionals, according to a study published Friday in the journal JAMA Internal Medicine.'

    https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/18/health/ivermectin-severe-covid-19/index.html

    Ivermectin has been at the forefront of anti vaxxers calls for their own Covid 19 'protocols' when unvaxxed seriously ill with Covid loved ones are admitted to hospitals.

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