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Open mike 12/02/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, February 12th, 2022 - 462 comments
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Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

462 comments on “Open mike 12/02/2022 ”

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  2. Muttonbird 2
    12 February 2022 at 7:43 am

    Nothing like a pandemic to reveal the absolute crazy underbelly of NZ.

    The former broadcaster Liz Gunn gave a speech in which she called for “aroha” – “we will win with love over evil,” she said. She was standing next to John Ansell, the former ad-man, who was holding a sign comparing Jacinda Ardern to the terrorist who perpetrated 51 murders at two Christchurch mosques.

    It is an uncomfortable, and confounding, thing to watch; calls for peace, next to a blown up image of a terrorist.

    John Ansell did the Kiwi/Iwi campaign for Don Brash. Water finds its level.

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece

    • Ross 2.1
      12 February 2022 at 8:25 am

      In the old days, reporters would simply report the news. Now they've inserted themselves into the news and are actively creating it. At the same time, the quality of news reporting has declined. Opinions aren't news.

      • Muttonbird 2.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 8:41 am

        Charlie Mitchel is an excellent journalist. Superb research (he watched hour of the crazies' TV channel) and largely well structured writing.

        How to interview a crowd of idiots without inserting yourself? He went in there despite threats against him and his colleagues. Have a think about that for a moment.

        • Rosemary McDonald 2.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 8:49 am

          Charlie Mitchel is an excellent journalist.

          He'll be so pleased to have a fan.

          • Muttonbird 2.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 8:55 am

            Well, he is, there's no doubt about that. Read his work on the environment, particularly waterways and land tenure in the South Island.

            The piece above is an important and pretty dispassionate look at what is making the protesters tick.

            No-one else has come close so far.

        • mauī 2.1.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 12:17 pm

          Was Charlie just covering Kelvin's coverage or what's actually going on?

    • The Chairman 2.2
      12 February 2022 at 9:11 am

      Nothing like a pandemic to reveal the absolute crazy underbelly of NZ.

      Alternatively, nothing like a WEF reset to reveal how dumb some people are.

      The Fourth Industrial Revolution is about changing you.

    • Gypsy 2.3
      12 February 2022 at 11:30 am

      I've been on the frontline of protest and I've been watching this one closely before commenting, but here's my 2 cents worth.

      The single biggest mistake the government and other critics of the protestors have made is to dismiss them. Yes this protest has attracted a disparate group of people with a range of grievances. Yes there are the usual assortment of hangers on, and it appears there has been open conflict between different sections of the group. But at it's core, there is an organised group who know exactly what they're doing. A few examples:

      1. The way they have had rolling waves of people joining the protest, as the initial crowd have tired and thinned.

      2. The use of children on the front line.

      3. The protestors have a kitchen, portaloos (which are being emptied regularly) and a medical centre.

      4. The placement of the many vehicles around the parliament is strategic.

      5. The protestors are in regular contact with the police, and have been told that the police will not 'arrest their way through this'.

      6. The protestors are aware towing companies will not tow their vehicles. At least for now.

      There is more, but these are signs of a well coordinated campaign, that is designed to last for some time yet.

      I am not condoning the protest, I am not saying I agree with the views being expressed. I am simply saying the people who have organised and are coordinating this should not be written off. There are ways to end this peacefully, but it will take considerable skill and tact.

      • Rosemary McDonald 2.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 12:14 pm

        Yep. Considering the protest has been relentlessly mocked for being leaderless and without a clear set of demands they certainly have got shit pretty well organised.

        And social media is working for them. The call went out yesterday evening for ponchos….hundreds were delivered. The way those with the skills took care of Mallard's sprinklers. The food and first aid tents. The way that Tamaki's army heeded the call and did not dominate when they turned up. More tents are arriving with those attending for the day. Kiwi as. And not a bureaucrat in sight.

      • Molly 2.3.2
        12 February 2022 at 12:20 pm

        Thanks, gypsy, for the first hand account.

        Makes my suggestions below seem superfluous.

        Agree, that the skillset required to address is high.

      • Muttonbird 2.3.3
        12 February 2022 at 6:46 pm
        1. That’s not organised. That’s just other crazies responding to Telegram message groups.
        2. Gee, that's brave.
        3. Pretty sure the WCC provided the portaloos.
        4. They blocked a street. Wow.
        5. Common knowledge. The district commander said so on the radio.
        6. The protesters have been threatening any tow truck company which takes the job. Classy.
        • Gypsy 2.3.3.1
          12 February 2022 at 8:22 pm
          1. Wrong. Believe me it takes proper organisation to keep numbers coming in.
          2. No, it’s not. I was observing, not approving. Young children are great camera fodder – the media lap them up. And it's deliberate and coordinated. "A protester has told an NZME reporter they are expecting more people to join them today, including a big group of school children. "A whole lot of kids will come in today and they'll see how happy and peaceful everyone is," he said.
          3. That’s not my understanding, nor is it what is being reported,
          4. They did more than that. They have secured a supply line, and most importantly they are pissing off locals, who will aim their frustration at the government as well as the protestors.
          5. Indeed.
          6. Yes I heard the police claim that. If it’s true, it’s despicable, but effective.

          Let me clear, I do not condone any of this, certainly not threats (if indeed that has occurred). But writing these people off is foolish. And petty, vindictive actions like turning sprinklers on the protestors is not the brightest move.

  3. Jenny how to get there 3
    12 February 2022 at 7:51 am

    War or Peace

    What's the best way to deal with a (mainly peaceful) mob that say they want to hang you?

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece

    Personally speaking I think the authorities need to back off and let these so called protesters hang themselves (metaphorically).

    And,with a lot more quality reporting like this, that exposes the neo-nazi motivations of the main instigators underpinning this protest.

    They say they want to talk to the politicians, how about this?

    The PM address them directly appealing to their better natures to remain peaceful. In return the government will leave them alone to continue their protest on the condition that it remain peaceful.

    • Muttonbird 3.1
      12 February 2022 at 7:56 am

      Those people can't be reasoned with. The want to harm politicians and a direct address would excite/enrage them even more.

      Better to let them burn themselves out, which is what police are doing.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 8:54 am

        These protesters have made it clear that they will not leave their protest camp peaceably.

        They have come prepared for war.

        The question is: is the government?

        The Labour government need to decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in.

        Better the government can defang them with negotiation rather than with batons.

        Police carrying batons as more protesters arrive at Parliament

        11 Feb, 2022 12:31 PM

        Anti-mandate protesters are in high spirits, despite being flanked by police holding batons as the Parliament occupation continues into its fourth day…..

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-police-carrying-batons-as-more-protesters-arrive-at-parliament/6WAGG52I4OPBALDMHIX5ROITSA/

        • Muttonbird 3.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 8:58 am

          Batons did appear briefly on belts but the district commander told 1ZB it was an error by the local commander and was soon rectified.

          • The Chairman 3.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 9:34 am

            Another bad mistake. It has resulted in yet more people coming in. People are witnessing all this police aggression and stand over tactics (albeit a mistake or not) online and are saying f that we're going down/up there.

        • The Chairman 3.1.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 9:27 am

          They have come prepared for war.

          Police carrying batons

          Can you see the flaw in your logic?

          Do you remember the 81 Springbok tour? That was a prime example of protesters coming prepared for war. Baseball bats, rubbish bin lids and helmets.

          The fact police are bringing batons to this event indicates they plan to bash unarmed, peaceful protesters.

          I must say, the position some of you people on here are taking is sickening.

          • Jenny how to get there 3.1.1.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:10 am

            Come on Chairman, – anti-racism protesters carrying base ball bats at 1981 protests?

            An outright lie, springing from your fetid right wing imagination.

          • Ric 3.1.1.2.2
            12 February 2022 at 11:00 am

            I never saw anyone carrying a baseball bat on the many springbok tour protests I attended in 1981

            • The Chairman 3.1.1.2.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:11 am

              Clearly, you weren't at the clash at the intersection of Riddiford Street, Rintoul Street then.

            • Blade 3.1.1.2.2.2
              12 February 2022 at 2:32 pm

              Or when Minto was dragged into a private property…and softened.

              Ah, for the old days when jocks ruled the roost.

            • Descendant Of Smith 3.1.1.2.2.3
              12 February 2022 at 5:04 pm

              As someone who was smashed over the head with a glass jug as I walked into a pub, not knowing it was full of protestors, wearing my club dress jersey I can certainly attest that there were violent protestors.

              Bunch of losers that lot were. I was lucky not to be seriously hurt or brain damaged. There were some stupid violent people in amongst those protestors.

        • alwyn 3.1.1.3
          12 February 2022 at 11:24 am

          "They have come prepared for war"

          "decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in".

          Don't you think that this is getting a little hysterical Jenny? I've had another look and they are still campervans I see. They aren't armoured personnel carriers. I am also unable to see any military assault rifles or trench mortars among their belongings. Perhaps their are hand grenades? Nope.

          It is a demonstration, not a war!

      • DukeEll 3.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 1:42 pm

        The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?

        • joe90 3.1.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 1:50 pm

          TBF, behaving like an undignified, ill-disciplined mob can't be that hard.

          • DukeEll 3.1.2.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 3:41 pm

            Paint them however you like, but they are not an ill disciplined mob. I'm no fan, but I marvel at the lengths they are going to and now am starting to enquire why people would prepare to camp at parliament this long in the face of such adversity.

            • joe90 3.1.2.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 3:52 pm

              Another twenty hours of rain and a 5-7C drop in temperature ahead of them so I guess we'll find out just how committed they are.

                • joe90 …
                  12 February 2022 at 5:23 pm

                  Destiny nutters performing a Ngati Toa haka that Ngati Toa explicitly requested they stop using means shit.

                  /

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 5:24 pm

                  Ae, and it's not like it's the middle of winter.

                  Good to see Māori up front rather than the Bannon fed crowd.

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 5:36 pm

                  do you know how sheltered from the SE and the southerly the camp is?

                  • gsays …
                    12 February 2022 at 6:12 pm

                    No.

                    I will do in a couple of days, a buddy is in a group of reinforcements coming from Te Tai Tokerau to go 'freedom camping' in Wellys.

                    • weka …
                      12 February 2022 at 6:49 pm

                      feel free to link me to any open social media with video that you consider good. I'm trying to pick up some on twitter.

                  • Shanreagh …
                    12 February 2022 at 9:32 pm

                    The end of the lawn where the arrests were being made on Thursday is at the northern end of the lawn. The lawn slopes back down from there to the south to the southern gates which come off Lambton Quay. So the site lies north south but slopes to the south. The site has quite a few trees to the South & SE so that would provide a tiny bit of protection. These trees often 'throw down' branches during wind from any direction.

                    Tonight they are saying to expect SE wind up to gale force. We have a wind and rain warning out for Wellington. .

                    My home is also NS but is tucked away from Southerlies & to an extent from SW. When we get SE winds which is not often, these winds can be very damaging. I say my garden does not like SE winds. The only time I have lost trees and shrubs it has been during a SE wind, we had some about 6 weeks or so ago that has absolutely cut that side of a pear tree, all leaves gone.

                    Summary

                    site lies north south

                    slope to south

                    some protection with trees to S but these trees are also prone to throwing branches. Wind will be diffused by trees but esssentially will blow up the site

                    The site has multiple smooth paths that water will run down.

                    The site will catch the rain as it faces south

                    The trenches that have been built seem to be running to the east.

                    One trench from last night runs south.

                    Who ever is the leader there, if sensible, needs to weigh up if they have made their point or do they continue and risk putting lives at risk from the cold, wind = exposure.

                    Not sure what sort of relationship the group has with Ngati Poneke and if they can evacuate to there, nearby Marae. Not sure where they would go if evacuated by Civil Defence, perhaps to a school hall?

                    I don't have any high expectations that the leaders would see it wise to evacuate the loyal 'foot' soldiers. To continue far from showing how staunch they are, will just cement idiocy as the prevailing theme.

                    Most true leaders would recognise how important it is for 'troops' to be warm, dry and fed. Leaders who lose their 'troops' from preventable happenings don't tend to stay as leaders very long.

                    My query is about the ability and role of Civil Defence and perhaps Public Health to intervene but this group (current leadership with Counterspin etc) may probably resist any attempt to help on CD or health grounds.

                    PS In last 15mins the rain has become very heavy.

                    PPS the twitter of Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara is the only one, other than official ones I am following.

        • Patricia Bremner 3.1.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 3:36 pm

          They have the internet.

        • weka 3.1.2.3
          12 February 2022 at 5:32 pm

          The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?

          Have to say I'm impressed, and am thinking about why this hasn't been done by climate activists. Whatever the politics here, there are important things to be learned.

        • mauī 3.1.2.4
          12 February 2022 at 6:41 pm

          The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?

          Yeah that, and also that lefty commentators have so little understanding of the protest itself is a chuckle too.

          • observer 3.1.2.4.1
            12 February 2022 at 11:59 pm

            When you're done chuckling, can you tell us what the protest is meant to achieve?

            What government policies do you expect to change as a result of the protest?

            Here to understand, but nobody wants to answer this.

          • Jenny how to get there 3.1.2.4.2
            13 February 2022 at 6:53 am

            Oh we understand it make no mistake about that.

            We understand the dark forces behind it that are exploiting the inchoate anger and powerlessness over many issues, not just vaccine mandates, and channeling that inchoate anger into dangerous extremist far right directions.

            We need to do two things; Not be drawn into a confrontation with the protesters which is what these far right manipulators want.

            And two address the growing inequity and powerlessness being experienced by many in our society.

            We need to 'Be Kind' not just in words but in actions.

            Tone deaf
            (A history)

            Open mike 10/02/2022

        • McFlock 3.1.2.5
          13 February 2022 at 12:14 am

          Couple of reasons, for a given value of "better", I think.

          1. most established protest groups know that they risk losing their vehicles doing that stuff. Not many people can afford to do that.
          2. Presence of kids. Human shields for the protestors.
          3. possibly some level of lack of preparedness to stop them camping until it was too late – a trick that won't work twice, I suspect.
          4. Someone can afford to give them all free food. I wonder how they fundraise – billboards, too?
          5. organised transport across the country by certain groups – density crowd, possibly the zealandia nazis. Not just the clownvoy.
    • Treetop 3.2
      12 February 2022 at 8:02 am

      There is nothing that the PM can say to change the mindset of the protesters.

      The protesters need to find a different venue other than the grounds of parliament.

      • Ross 3.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 8:41 am

        There is nothing that the PM can say to change the mindset of the protesters.

        Hmmm I can think of several things the PM could say which would probably see an end to the protest today, and the PM would be behaving like a stateswoman in the process. A classic win-win, but it won't happen because the PM isn't a stateswoman.

        The PM could say that vaccine passes and mandates have been rescinded and that we will never see them again while she is PM. She could say that we will never see another lockdown while she is PM. She could apologise unreservedly for the damage and harm caused by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes. She could cite the Health Ministry's pandemic plan (2017) which makes no mention of lockdowns, vaccine mandates or passes. She could explain why the Government (mistakenly) went much further than the pandemic plan envisaged. She could remind the public that the pandemic plan was predicated on the basis that 38,000 people would die over 8 weeks of an outbreak. She could advise the public that that simply could not have happened with COVID as the case fatality rate was too low. She could apologise for taking such draconian action, and state that such action will never be taken again while she is PM. She could apologise for the scaremongering that has been spread by Government Ministers, the media and officials. She could apologise to those who were dismissed or resigned from their jobs because they would not be coerced into getting vaccinated. She could formally apologise to Charlotte Bellis and other pregnant women who were unreasonably and unnecessarily denied access to their homeland. That would be a good start and would likely see an end to the protest today. But her spin doctors would have a heart attack.

        The standard planning model assumes a total case fatality rate of 2 percent, within which about 38,000 deaths would occur over the eight-week period, peaking at about 23,500 in week four (compared with New Zealand’s normal weekly death rate of around 599)

        • Treetop 3.2.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 9:19 am

          Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?

          The public will have their say on how well this Labour government handle the Covid – 19 pandemic at the next general election in the third quarter of 2023.

          I am unable to devote my time further today.

          • Ross 3.2.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 9:32 am

            Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?

            No, I'm saying the PM would be doing the right thing – and politicians should always do the right thing – by herself, her Government, the public and, lastly, the protesters. I think Hot Chocolate said it best.

            • Blade 3.2.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 9:47 am

              Looking back on this band, they produced some of the best hooks in popular music ( everyone's a winner). ( you sexy thing). (It Started With A Kiss). (No Doubt About It).

              The political equivalent, but without the talent, is Jacinda and her spin doctors: (be kind). ( tena koutou katoa). ( I'm not ignoring you Barry) ( I'll start with Jessica). ( We expect). ( I'll pass that to Dr Bloomfield) ( time to move on)

              I ask blog to please excuse my dry Tory wit. laughdevil

            • Jenny how to get there 3.2.1.1.1.2
              12 February 2022 at 10:28 am

              Great outside the box thinking. Government deliver the shivering protesters a trolley of hot chocolate drinks first thing every morning.

              Love your enemies, nothing annoys them more.

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 11:48 am

                "Love your enemies, nothing annoys them more."

                Or address the distress.

                In line with your suggestion, a possible strategy.

                Given the skillset required, it is unlikely to be found in the police force, but more usual in the Māori wardens (or their equivalent if there is one). They are immediately recognisable, and have a wealth of experience in dealing with the marginalised and distressed. They can be seen to have no skin in the game.

                Imagine, having a group of such people working their way through the crowd organising meetings, that look to reduce the harm for the public – protestors and non-protestors alike. Handing out leaflets that outline those issues and allow time for discussion, and suggestions.

                ie. 1. Given the large number of children present, what plans are in place for their physical wellbeing and safeguarding? Is anything else needed? Do you have a site policy of no drugs or alcohol? Are you able to manage this without assistance?

                2. Are the public facilities available sufficient for the increased use? Does this need to be addressed in practical ways by the protestors to ensure physical health? ie. cleaning crew, additional supplies?

                3. What are the plans to ensure wellbeing for all in terms of:

                inclement weather, unsupported fringe actions, non-protestor distrust and reaction?

                4. Is there a requirement for counselling support to those present?

                5. Given a large proportion of negative response is due to concerns of the protest being a superspreader event, how are the organisers going to practically consider and address that impediment to being heard?

                6. Is there a consensus list of concerns and solutions that are able to be agreed upon, that will allow those present to feel that their presence has been articulated in such a way that is valid? and will be a coherent message for media and the non-protesting public?

                7. How are protest organisers dealing with those who attend that are utilising the protest for their own purposes, or acting in ways that are not consistent with peaceful protest? Is help required?

                8. Have you considered putting together a depository of stories that will allow those not present to understand why you are all here?

                Regardless of what we approve of, we need to look after people.

                I recollect the experience of someone who worked in Civil Defence after the Christchurch earthquakes, who related the reluctance of many tourists to leave the marae experience after they had partaken of their hospitality when offered. A few stayed for several days on the largesse of the local marae, because it was provided for free, and they saw no need to move on somewhere where they had to pay.

                If we can allow such casual selfishness for non-citizens, we can surely extend compassion to our own.

                • Molly …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:09 pm

                  Missed an important consideration:

                  Who are the people within the protest that can be contacted in case of situations or emergencies? And provide them with a list of those who can be contacted by the protestors in respect of the same.

                • Jenny how to get there …
                  13 February 2022 at 5:16 am

                  Brilliant!

                  I would like to suggest one more thing.

                  One of the protesters demands is that they be able to speak to the politicians.

                  Maybe we could ask them to choose two or three people who they feel best represent them to become part of a delegation to go and meet with the politicians in parliament. Including a media outlet of their choice to record and relay the proceedings back to them.

                  Asking them to hold an election to choose their representatives might be instructive of how democracy works and bring some sort of order and organisation to what seems to be an inchoate angry mob.

        • Ad 3.2.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 9:22 am

          Prime Minister Ardern is not going to do any of those things.

          Nor should she.

          • Jenny how to get there 3.2.1.2.1
            13 February 2022 at 5:50 am

            Ad

            12 February 2022 at 9:22 am

            Prime Minister Ardern is not going to do any of those things.

            Nor should she.

            Why not?

            I thought the Prime Minister's Kindness model was a great idea. Now is the chance to realise it in practice.

            I think we should take up Molly’s suggestions.

        • Ed1 3.2.1.3
          12 February 2022 at 11:26 am

          The standard planning model was probably not been based on Covid, and would assume no actions taken to slow cases.

          Denmark has just removed all restrictions – they had a fairly good record, but not as good as New Zealands in preventing deaths, but they have now had over 2 million cases, 4,000 deaths, with 45,000 new cases and 24 new deaths yesterday – they have a similar population to NZ. I suspect your proposals above would not be supported in parliament by a majority of MPs; not all National MPs would vote for it.

        • Louis 3.2.1.4
          12 February 2022 at 6:14 pm

          So Ross, you think the government should do nothing to protect the people during a global pandemic, that they shouldn't try and save as many lives as possible and that they shouldn't prevent the health system from being overwhelmed?

        • DS 3.2.1.5
          12 February 2022 at 8:46 pm

          "I apologise for Public Health Measures that have saved thousands of lives, and which have enjoyed great public support since the pandemic began. I realise now that people have the right to infect other people with deadly diseases through their own stupidity, and the Government should never intervene to protect the elderly and the vulnerable from such stupidity."

          That sound about right?

        • georgecom 3.2.1.6
          12 February 2022 at 11:50 pm

          Not sure the PM needs to be the one to apologise for the damage covid has done compelling us as a country into lock downs, vaccine mandates and passes. Covid19 should be the person apologising for that. She could acknowledge it has been difficult for many and that covid times have necessitated such, but I believe she has done that a number of times. She has said there will be no more lockdowns, that's what the traffic light system is about. If things get incredibly dire and we are forced back into another lockdown I think most people will, even reluctantly, understand. common sense would prevail. Of course we are all hoping that is so. Once the omicron wave has passed we will be in a better position to relook at vaccine mandates and passes. I don't see them as being permanent. So the PM at some point might well be able to state their end. I have always seen them as a 'necessary evil' if you like, a time bound thing that has an end date, whatever that end date might be.

          As for the protestors my plan would be this. Allow them to stay, contain them to a set area, remove vehicles clogging up streets and footpaths – a warning first and then towed, any more than moderate antisocial behaviour results in arrest, turn off the sprinklers and the floodlights etc, allow them to have a presence and pretty much ignore them as best can. if people want to camp out there for days on end then leave them to it.

      • Jenny how to get there 3.2.2
        12 February 2022 at 11:49 am

        Treetop

        12 February 2022 at 8:02 am

        ….The protesters need to find a different venue other than the grounds of parliament.

        And how do you intend to enforce that?

        More violence?

        • Treetop 3.2.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 11:17 pm

          And how do you intend to enforce that?

          Not using violence.

          • Jenny how to get there 3.2.2.1.1
            13 February 2022 at 4:59 am

            The question may have been badly worded.
            How do you intend to enforce that? Could have been written; How do you intend to compel that without the use of force?

            The use of force requires using various levels of violence.

            In this case, forcibly dragging people off the grounds of parliament against their will.

            Society does have other ways to compel people

            Fines, for instance.

            But I see that their illegally parked vehicles have been ticketed didn't convince them to move them.

            • Treetop 3.2.2.1.1.1
              13 February 2022 at 8:31 am

              You first raised force and violence and not me.

              • Jenny how to get there …
                13 February 2022 at 9:13 am

                Treetop

                13 February 2022 at 8:31 am

                You first raised force and violence and not me.

                Sure I raise these things, that is because I oppose their use to end this protest.

                You said; "The protesters need to find a different venue other than the grounds of parliament."

                I asked; "How do you intend to enforce that?"

                You replied; "Peacefully"

                How?

                How do you propose we remove this protest to a different venue peacefully?

                • Treetop …
                  13 February 2022 at 11:05 am

                  The occupation of the grounds of parliament is now a police operational matter. NZ is not a police state, the government need to be careful with what they say.

                  I would like the protesters to form a representative group and the group meet with Coster the police commissioner. An alternate venue to be decided and an exit time.

                  Mandates will eventually be done away with as they will not be required. I expect very few people will line up for a 4th vaccine using the current vaccines. Mandates will not be required when a vaccine is reliable and effective against Covid – 19.

      • DukeEll 3.2.3
        12 February 2022 at 3:42 pm

        Ihumatao should have done the same. How dare bastion pt be turned into a symbolic geographical symbol.

    • Blade 3.3
      12 February 2022 at 8:26 am

      I’m afraid JHTGT, that your suggestion for Jacinda ( or any polly for that matter) to address the crowd has already been suggested by me.

      It has gone down like a lead balloon with a tonne weight on top.

      Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.

      Sometimes I despair.crying

      • Muttonbird 3.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 8:34 am

        If you think it’s good strategy for the PM to go out in front of an angry anti-vax crowd who want to string her up for “murder”, you are dumber than I thought.

        And that is saying something.

        • Jenny how to get there 3.3.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 8:37 am

          I was actually thinking of a broadcast.

          To get their attention;

          Well signposted beforehand, that the PM will be addressing the protesters at Parliament directly.

          • Muttonbird 3.3.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 8:43 am

            She'd be legitimising crank views which would undermine the effort the rest of us have made over the last 2 years.

            • Jenny how to get there 3.3.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 9:02 am

              Muttonbird

              12 February 2022 at 8:43 am

              She'd be legitimising crank views….

              If if is being done in an honest attempt to avert unnecessary violent confrontations in which no one wins, negotiating with your opponent is not legitimising their crank views.

        • Blade 3.3.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 8:52 am

          ''Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.''

          • Stuart Munro 3.3.1.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 6:18 pm

            No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.

            These people are no different to Trump's insurrectionists – they are merely outgunned, and thus pretending to be peaceful.

            The traditional remedy will do fine – read them the riot act, and arrest those who remain. No need for violence – confiscating their tents will get most of them gone sharpish.

            • Blade 3.3.1.2.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 7:04 pm

              ''No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.''

              No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.

              You obviously haven't been reading my other posts on this thread.

              You are either being wilfully ignorant, or you aren't getting the jist of what I'm saying.

              You do realise that in an ABSOLUTE SENARIO with civil war breaking out in NZ, instigators would probably charge her with treason – they wouldn't be too concerned about the finer shades or appropriateness of the word ''treason.''

              They would simply say – ''you refused to listen to us. You discriminated against us. You broke my family up. I was on a hundred grand a year you!#@$, now l’m eating baked beans. My loved one died when I was in M1Q. etc.

              The chances of that happening at present is slim. But if the pressure keeps up, people will start to ask questions and reconsider the situation.

              Questions like:

              1- Why weren't protesters moved on quickly?

              2- Surely some polly could have addressed the protesters?

              3- Police brutality( already an issue)

              4- My business had to close because of government inaction.

              In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.

              Do you understand, Stuart?

              Oh, and Stuart. Don't forget I have predicted this year will be the worst in NZs history.

              I have to record my predictions for Weka. laugh

              • Muttonbird …
                12 February 2022 at 7:12 pm

                I don't understand this. No politician, not one, has engaged with this rabble.

                Not one from any part of NZ's political spectrum.

                You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.

                • Blade …
                  12 February 2022 at 7:26 pm

                  ''You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.''

                  Fair comment, and I said yesterday all other pollies stand condemned with Jacinda. Especially Luxon and Dave…supposed Righties. They are just wastes of space. They should have been out there in front of protesters offering an alternative reality for NZ.

                  But the protesters have come for only one polly..and that is Jacinda; leader of Labour and our nation. She is the one affecting protesters lives according to their perspective.

                  She must accept all consequences for what happens going forward regard this and possible future protests.

                  • solkta …
                    12 February 2022 at 8:24 pm

                    But the protesters have come for only one polly..and that is Jacinda;

                    They did say that they had an “arrest warrant” for Andrew Little. They tried to storm Parliament to serve it on him.

                    • Blade …
                      12 February 2022 at 8:39 pm

                      I didn't know about that. I don't think Andy would be too worried.

                      I must say, having a beard has changed his look and demeanour from being a mousy timid looking chap, to someone with gravitas and presence.

                      That would have served him well when he was leading the Labour Party.

                      National may have stopped calling him Angry Andy.

                    • Muttonbird …
                      12 February 2022 at 8:49 pm

                      I didn't know about that.

                      It's in the Charlie Mitchell article posted at 2 and 3 on this very thread. A very good report and I encourage you to read it.

                    • solkta …
                      12 February 2022 at 8:51 pm

                      Little would be a fool not to be concerned about that. And a fool i can't see he is.

                    • solkta …
                      12 February 2022 at 8:56 pm

                      @muttonbird

                      It doesn't look like Blade is here to actually read anything. Just to spread meaningless rhetoric.

                    • Blade …
                      12 February 2022 at 9:13 pm

                      Please hold on.. and be fair.

                      I have just finished the article. And after looking at the photo of this chap, I will say he looks like a pure feral with some mongrel bloodline. He also has form.

                      I would agree with you and admit Andrew will need to be careful.

                      I can't and don't read everything…neither do you, I would bet.

                      Notice how the article tracks some of my comments?

                    • solkta …
                      12 February 2022 at 9:21 pm

                      To be fair, it has been all over the MSM for several days.

                    • Blade …
                      12 February 2022 at 9:29 pm

                      It may have been over the MSM for several days…but I didn't see it.

                      I read a huge amount of stuff each day. That usually covers most bases, sometimes it doesn't.

                    • solkta …
                      12 February 2022 at 9:34 pm

                      You might read a lot of stuff every day, but obviously not stuff relevant to the rhetoric you plaster about in here.

                    • Blade …
                      12 February 2022 at 10:27 pm

                      I have explained myself. You are welcome to your opinion.

                      If you want to play this game. I can play too. Although it shouldn't be a problem for you as you read all the relevant stuff.

                      Let's see in future?

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 7:40 pm

                put the word prediction in your comment each time and it will be relatively easy to keep track of them 👍

              • Stuart Munro …
                12 February 2022 at 8:39 pm

                No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.

                Of course you do! Who wouldn't? But then you say:

                In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.

                Astonishing! The unusually stupid people that you identify with are to be forgiven for their violence, their dishonesty , endangering public health, trespass, affray, and attempted insurrection – at least in the howling void that passes for your cognitive spaces.

                I wonder if the judiciary will be so sympathetic "Blade".

                We long ago understood that your intention is to lend credence to the semi-conscious liberation army presently threatening our democracy.

                You are an aide and an accomplice to these traitors Blade, a mischievous miscreant who knows less about democracy than he ought, an agent provocateur maliciously trying to pollute public discourse and steer us towards a further derogation and destabilization, producing even less democracy than we presently enjoy as our institutions are fatally paralyzed by neoliberalism.

                What a shameful practice you are engaged in Blade, the traditional province of foreign spies and saboteurs – no wonder you feel obliged to conceal your identity.

                Wise up, you stupid, irresponsible, culpable prat. Neither you, nor your lunatic sympathizers presently cowering in the rain have anything whatsoever to offer NZ.

                Go home. Sober up. Try to be less of a public disgrace.

                • Blade …
                  12 February 2022 at 8:53 pm

                  I'm afraid you are a nutcase. One the Left are famous for.

                  I have tried to reason with you.

                  I have tried to explain my comments with you.

                  You aren't interested. You blindly prattle on in your own ignorance.

                  You then make up shit that would put Ian Fleming to shame.

                  If posters were moderated for stupidity, you would have been back flipping burgers long ago.

                  • Stuart Munro …
                    21 February 2022 at 9:47 pm

                    I'm afraid you are a nutcase.

                    Yes, we've noticed you have nothing to offer but personal abuse. No plausible links, no credible assertions, no testable premises – only cheap and stupid invective. You disgrace your cause.

      • Ross 3.3.2
        12 February 2022 at 8:58 am

        Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.

        It depends of course on what she would say. If it was the same old platitudes, then she'd be wasting her time and would likely antagonise the protesters. But a genuine mea culpa and appropriate action to rescind what have been terrible policies, it's a win-win-win – for the protesters, the public and her. But her spin doctors wouldn’t allow it lol

        • Blade 3.3.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 9:04 am

          Ross, I doubt the PM would get a word in sideways. They want a whipping boy, and she is it.

          Addressing the crowd covers her on a number of fronts..it then allows her to proceed, using force, to remove the protesters.

          You can bet people are going to be hurt and there's the possibility of things becoming worse down the track.

          But innocent people and businesses are being affected. That isn't on in my books.

          • Ross 3.3.2.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 9:52 am

            You can bet people are going to be hurt and there's the possibility of things becoming worse down the track.

            Well, sure, if police continue to resort to violence. But that's on them, not the protesters.

            “Parnell said on top of 900 officers in the district, another 150 had been pulled in from across the country, with potentially more to come.”

            So, 900 local police can't handle a peaceful protest? Burglars in Wellington must think it’s their birthday and Xmas rolled into one lol

            https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-parliament-protest-sprinklers-turned-on-second-wave-convoy-en-route/3MKC44AVVFXXTGUATPSLMIFN7Q/

            • Blade 3.3.2.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:19 am

              I have stated our police are incompetent. More so police hierarchy.

              I'm guessing there's friction between what commanders on the ground want to do, and what Cuddles Costa and Poto Williams are allowing them to do.

              That's leading to police frustration at having to hold the line when they know they could have resolved this situation days ago.

              And of course, police like every organisation, have their hotheads who have short fuses. It's not rocket science as to what happens when they blow their fuses.

              It will be interesting to see what comes out in the review into this protest that is to follow..

              I repeat this is a guess and speculation on my part. I get tired of trolls who pick apart my comments when they can assail my main points.

        • Muttonbird 3.3.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 9:11 am

          It would have to be accepted they are terrible policies.

          95% of eligible Kiwis think they're great policies.

          That is a slam-dunk landslide.

          • Molly 3.3.2.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 9:41 am

            "95% of eligible(?) Kiwis think they're great policies."

            Are you taking this number from vaccination status? My partner and I are both double-vaxxed and boosted, and also disagree with the current government policy re vaccine passports.

            There is also a failure to provide a data justification for this:ie. Does the difference in virus shedding for an unvaccinated person have a significant impact given that they are around 5% of the population? If so, how has that calculated benefit been weighed against the social and well-being costs of those that are obviously (and invisibly) struggling?

            Although, I don't agree with all Ross writes above, he does provide an alternative that is still maintains authority, while showing understanding and compassion. It's the solving of the difficult situations that show your skill.

            Of course, we can just keep on with the schoolyard level ridiculing and smugness that comes from knowing you are on the team of five million – less some.

            • aom 3.3.2.2.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:09 am

              Given that the protest is likely to be a superspreader event, we are likely to get some answers on the efficacy of a 'let it rip' approach soon enough. The problem is that we don't have the resources to cope with the fall-out if it all goes pear-shaped, especially when it is obvious that the staunch won't acknowledge being infected, even until seriously affected.

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 10:52 am

                Yes, I know this is what is being said. What I haven't seen is the modelling that compares the unvaccinated shedding to get an outcome, and views it against the obvious distress and concern of the 5% that are unvaccinated.

                Have you?

          • Ross 3.3.2.2.2
            12 February 2022 at 10:01 am

            95% of eligible Kiwis think they're great policies

            And millions watch Coronation St, so by your logic it must be a great programme lol

            I must confess I haven't seen any surveys where people have been asked whether they enjoy lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes, or whether they’ve assessed any cost/benefit analysis of such policies. Maybe you could point me to such a survey. When the senior editor of the British Medical Journal says that vaccine mandates are bad, you might want to listen. When economists and other experts say that lockdowns are a huge policy failure, you might want to listen. But it’s not mandatory.

            https://www.covidplanb.co.nz/epidemiology/meta-study-lockdowns-greatest-peacetime-policy-failure/

            https://faculty.rx.umaryland.edu/pdoshi/files/2021/11/Doshi-MedChi-talk-script.pdf

            https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/10/ratings-coronation-street-live

        • Jenny how to get there 3.3.2.3
          12 February 2022 at 9:56 am

          No to any mea culpas.

          The government policies in fighting the pandemic have been far from terrible, in fact this government's strategy for dealing with the pandemic have been recognised around the world.

          Coronavirus: How New Zealand relied on science and empathy

          20 April 2020

          https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52344299

          A vociferous minority divorced from reality armed with 'alternative facts' and hidden far right agendas dispute this.

          The question here is not about giving in to them, the question is: How do we deal with this vociferous minority?

          Do we deal with them harshly or with tact?

          Personally I think we need to stick with the "Be Kind" strategy.

          The "Be Kind" slogan is meaningless if it is only intended to be applied to those who agree with us. We were going to be kind to those people anyway.

          • Molly 3.3.2.3.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:07 am

            "The "Be Kind" slogan is meaningless if it is only intended to be applied to those who agree with us. We were going to be kind to those people anyway."

            It is – as you say – a slogan.

            One that I have always disparaged, as it implies a starting point of no kindness.

            • weka 3.3.2.3.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:14 am

              well yes, but it's true isn't it, that we also have a lot of not kind and actual anti-kindness in NZ?

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 10:44 am

                I am aware there is plenty of uncelebrated kindness and compassion in NZ within the community. Be kind to them is preaching to the choir. Be kind to the terminally 'unkind' is pissing in the wind.

                I find the term quite trite, and would never resort to it when parenting for that reason. It means nothing, because kindness is subjective.

            • Jenny how to get there 3.3.2.3.1.2
              12 February 2022 at 10:17 am

              <i>….. it [be kind], implies a starting point of no kindness.</i>

              And you would be right, look around, there is not much kindness in the world of politics and human conflict.

              That is why the "Be kind" statement gained so much surprised world attention.

              Now that the rubber is hitting the tarmac is now the time that 'Be Kind' slogan needs to be put into practice.

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 10:47 am

                Hi Jenny, I admit I have a personal antipathy towards the "Be Kind" message as mentioned above, but do agree with your view that this needs follow through.

                Ironically, my first thought is that it really involves the other slogan that travelled around the world "They Are Us". Wouldn't that acknowledgment in this case be the kindest place to start?

          • mpledger 3.3.2.3.2
            12 February 2022 at 1:51 pm

            But how are the protesters being kind to me? They are pretty much complying with none of the traffic light rules.

            They want kindness but are going to be harming a lot of people through the high likelihood of creating a supers-preader event. There is only so much you can turn the other cheek to.

            The ironic thing is that if this doesn't become a super-spreader event it will be down to the rules that the government put in place that has led to very low community spread.

            And besides all that, it's the biggest anti-climate change rally without being an anti-climate change rally.

  4. Adrian 4
    12 February 2022 at 8:07 am

    It sounds like a large number of them are seriously disturbed and need help, not that they would ever admit it.

    • Treetop 4.1
      12 February 2022 at 8:15 am

      The protesters have their point of view, it is the way they are going about it that I dislike.

      • Anne 4.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:41 am

        …it is the way they are going about it that I dislike.

        Which I think is what Adrian is meaning. The way they are going about it suggests some of them are seriously disturbed. Mind you there been an improvement since the trouble shooters were removed from the scene.

        • alwyn 4.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 11:32 am

          You are qualified to make that statement are you Anne? A professional psychiatrist perhaps? And you talked to the people you are discussing did you?

  5. Maurice 5
    12 February 2022 at 8:45 am

    It seems that they have 'entrenched' themselves in Trevor's front lawn …..

    Trench warfare?

  6. Blade 6
    12 February 2022 at 8:49 am

    I was debating the other day about flaws in our transition to green energy, and the missteps I believe we are making.

    I was told the fossil fuel industry was dragging its heels and we need to move to green energy to basically save the planet.

    But, in the real world not only the fossil fuel industry is supposedly dragging their heels, so are the unions. And I don't blame them. Covid would be least of our worries if fuel supplies ran out in these uncertain times.

    Does the government understand this : No, they don't.

    The union is presently taking out ads in the papers ( in our local at least) to explain this perilous situation.

    Quote from link below:

    ''Mr Harrison says the fact that Energy Minister Megan Woods took a paper to Cabinet with a proposal for securing the future of the refinery was a clear indication that closure was a risky strategy.''

    https://www.munz.org.nz/2021/11/23/maritime-union-calls-for-government-review-of-marsden-point-closure/

    As an aside, I spent a few days on a coastal oil tanker making stops around the North Island. What a great gig. It's a whole different lifestyle.

      • Blade 6.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:01 am

        Crickey…that's a fly in the ointment for the Left, especially greenies… and even for a whole generation of anti nuclear protesters.

        I'm investing in our first nuclear power plant.

        There is a form of nuclear power production that is far safer and with less radio active waste. I believe that would be a viable compromise with the green set. Although I don't think the greens do compromise very well.

        • weka 6.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:16 am

          Funny. The NZ Green Party set the example for how to work across difference all the time. What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?

          Looks to me like the oil companies, industrial farmers, rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise. We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?

          • Ad 6.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:20 am

            Let's just see what the plan looks like in May.

          • Blade 6.1.1.1.2
            12 February 2022 at 10:40 am

            ''What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?''

            Fair enough…give us some examples.

            ''Rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.''

            You mean like farmers who are continually upgrading their farming practices, saving native bush and replanting wetlands?

            Meanwhile, the media and Greens and the government continue to clobber the farming sector and use errant farmers as an example of why farmers need more regulations.

            And while I'm at it – these latte slurping urban Greens and city folk generally, need a week on a farm to find out about the industry that keeps this country a float, and allows Robbo to play Robin Hood.

            Maori need a serve here, too. I'm tired of hearing about them being kaitiaki of this and that. But when the time comes for community green projects that demand mahi…they are nowhere insight.

            ''We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?''

            For the reason I have given above and in previous debates.

            • weka 6.1.1.1.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:54 am

              ''What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?''

              Fair enough…give us some examples.

              You can do your own homework on that. I suggest reading Ad's posts and comments, because he talks about this albeit sometimes in negative ways about the Greens. But Shaw's basic position has been negotiation and getting a wide range of disparate sectors on board with the government's climate response, including farmers and business people.

              ''Rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.''

              You mean like farmers who are continually upgrading their farming practices, saving native bush and replanting wetlands?

              No. Don't selective quote me. I said,

              Looks to me like the oil companies, industrial farmers, rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.

              This is a tiresome debate. Obviously there are lots of farmers doing good things, others heading in the right direction, many stuck by their huge loans and so on. And, Fed Farmers is anti-green and dragging the chain massively on climate action, and industrial farming cannot by definition be sustainable.

              Meanwhile, the media and Greens and the government continue to clobber the farming sector and use errant farmers as an example of why farmers need more regulations.

              Maybe farmer should get together and form a new union, so that we don't have to take Fed Farmers as their main representation.

              Even the best of covnentional farmers in my area (I live rurally) aren't even close to being sustainable. Despite some of them doing good things.

              And while I'm at it – these latte slurping urban Greens and city folk generally, need a week on a farm to find out about the industry that keeps this country a float, and allows Robbo to play Robin Hood.

              Haha, mate I've lived in the country most of my adult life and I have my own critique of townies. But you can't pull the wool over my eyes either and pretend that conventional ag isn't doing a lot of harm while it's making all that dosh for the country.

              Maori need a serve here, too. I'm tired of hearing about them being kaitiaki of this and that. But when the time comes for community green projects that demand mahi…they are nowhere insight.

              That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?

              ''We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?''

              For the reason I have given above and in previous debates.

              No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.

              • Blade …
                12 February 2022 at 4:49 pm

                ''No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.''

                I blamed the union for nothing as far as I can remember. The union has the same concerns about fuel supply as the fossil fuel industry. See my link.

                We have the technology to produce green energy. We do not have the infrastructure or capacity to use green technology to power NZ on its own without input from fossil fuel sources.

                If you know this to be not true please provide a link.

                Anyway, the present green technology is only a stop gap measure until cold fusion, zero point energy and hydrogen are perfected. Cold fusion is coming along nicely.

                Then the universe will belong to us. I'm sure the citizens in far flung galactic communities will be thrilled to see a bunch of wankers like us.

                ''That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?''

                That is an uncalled for comment. But it's a standard response to anyone who critiques Maori, gays and other assorted purveyors of wokeism.

                No, I'm not involved in any green projects. I do however grow natives for replanting, and have planted riverbanks with trees to stop erosion.

                I once offered trees to a project that was replanting on TeMata Peak in Hawke's Bay. The project manager, a retired local doctor, politely declined my offer because : ''the trees didn't come from the local area.'' We are talking natives of the same species required for planting.

                Of course Maori have a big say over TeMata Peak, having recently stopped a winery from using a track they had made on the peak, even though the winery had every right to because it was on private land.

                I'm GUESSING the good doctor declined my offer because he was worried he could have run foul of Maori. Usually doctors aren't so irrational.

                So, sorry if you see me as a racist. I'm not. But I refuse to kiss woke butt.

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 5:18 pm

                  Critise woke culture all you like, I was talking about your continual Māori bashing. You seem to be throwing anything liberal in terms of policy under wokeism.

                  Yes, biosourcing for native restoration matters.

                  NZ can't produce all the power it needs from anything. Magic tech to replace brown tech won't work on any level other than that some people will get richer for a while. We have to powerdown. Renewables can be part of that, but they come with their own set of problems. Continuing to burn fossil fuels is insane. Even if you don't believe in AGW, there are compelling reasons to powerdown and fast.

          • alwyn 6.1.1.1.3
            12 February 2022 at 11:36 am

            "What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?"

            You know, when you put it that way, my only reply is "Damned if I know, but he's probably been to a few conferences".

            • weka 6.1.1.1.3.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:42 am

              yeah, but you had a long history of lying about the Greens on TS, so you're bias is well established. Doesn't surprise me if you don't know what he's done, or if you do and are lying again.

              • alwyn …
                12 February 2022 at 12:01 pm

                I will admit to being biased about the Green Party. I don't think that the MPs that they have had since Rod Donald, Kennedy Graham and Kevin Hague have been Green at all.

                However I do not accept that I lied about them. I merely highlighted things about them that some of their true believers didn't like being publicized. Was I being selective? Yes. But was I lying? No.

      • Ad 6.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 10:19 am

        The French President Macron has now made it a campaign pledge to retain and expand nuclear energy – to decrease reliance on gas.

        Germany is going to have to face up to the strategic vulnerability it has created with something better than more gas pipelines from Gazprom.

        • Blazer 6.1.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 1:03 pm

          Don't you think they considered that before giving the greenlight to Nordstream 2?

          It is clear that the U.S believes it controls Germany, given Bidens promise to interfere with Nordstream 2.

          Biden campaigned on being 'tough' with Russia and is painting himself into a…corner.

      • Jenny how to get there 6.1.3
        12 February 2022 at 11:03 am

        Nuclear and gas are not the only non-green solutions to climate change being proposed.

        Included in the list of non-green strategies to deal with climate change are, carbon capture, geo engineering, off-setting, mitigation.

        The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions.

        As well as being the only truly Green solution to climate change, cutting back our emissions is also the only solution to climate change that is not being taken seriously.

        Why are NZ's emissions still rising?

        13 Apr, 2021 11:30 AM

        New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions have shot up by more than a quarter in the past three decades ….

        ……gross emissions leapt by 26 per cent – or some 17.2 million metric tonnes of carbon dioxide (Mt CO2-e) – over that period.

        …..gross and net emissions rose by around 2 per cent in 2019.

        …..Under policies in place when the report was prepared, the country would fall short of its 2050 target of net-zero long-lived gases by 6.3Mt of CO2-e.

        https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/climate-change-why-are-nzs-emissions-still-rising/LRAOLGXYTE6DFH2FHYF7H4NMWY/

        We are not cutting back our emissions, we are increasing them.

        • alwyn 6.1.3.1
          12 February 2022 at 11:42 am

          "The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions"

          Why then do you not regard nuclear power as being Green?

          "Nuclear power plants produce no greenhouse gas emissions during operation, and over the course of its life-cycle, nuclear produces about the same amount of carbon dioxide-equivalent emissions per unit of electricity as wind, and one-third of the emissions per unit of electricity when compared with solar."

          https://world-nuclear.org/nuclear-essentials/how-can-nuclear-combat-climate-change.aspx

          Those numbers apparently come from the IPCC

          • Jenny how to get there 6.1.3.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 12:02 pm

            Nuclear energy does not qualify as being green on a number of fronts.

            The mining and processing of uranium into yellowcake, with negative health affects on mine workers, the local environment and water courses.

            The problematic question as where to store or dispose of the massive amounts of deadly radioactive waste, and the maintenance of such facilities for time spans longer than civilisation has existed.

            The contamination of large amounts of arable land and the irradiation of the local population in the case of an accidental release of radiation due to human error or natural disaster.

            • alwyn 6.1.3.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 12:31 pm

              The statement about "massive amounts" and "time spans etc" are largely myths. There really isn't that much high level waste produced. The problem is with getting people to accept the ways that disposal could safely be done.

              If you have a little bit of time have a look at this.

              https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/radwaste.html

              Most nuclear waste is surprisingly short lived. I remember when I was at University I did some experiments that involved irradiating various materials. One created quite active isotopes of silver. You certainly wouldn't have handled it when it was newly radiated. However the half life was only about 90 seconds and after 30 minutes the radiation level had dropped by a factor of a million. Most waste from reactors is quite short-lived, if not quite as short as that, and for the longer lived stuff vitrifying it and dumping it into a deep shaft in the Australian outback would get rid of it until long after it had decayed.

              • Jenny how to get there …
                12 February 2022 at 12:40 pm

                One, out of three?

                OK, I don't necessarily agree, but I will give you that one.

                What about the other two?

                • alwyn …
                  12 February 2022 at 7:28 pm

                  I know absolutely nothing about the mining of Uranium and have, therefore, nothing useful to say.

                  I guess the major Nuclear accidents were Chernobyl, Fukushima, Kyshtum, Windscale and Three Mile Island.

                  The number of short term deaths from Chernobyl was only about 50. The Chernobyl Forum came up with a figure of 4,000 to 9,000 for future cancer deaths while the Union of Concerned Scientists came up with 27,000. Greenpeace proposed that it was many more but I really doubt there detachment in their study

                  https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-disaster-death-toll-estimates-radiation-cancer-1444029.

                  Fukushima occurred in 2011, There were about 20,000 people killed in the earthquake, the tsunami and the evacuation. In 2018 the first death from radiation was reported. I don't know whether there have been any others.

                  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45423575

                  The 3rd and 4th were back in the 1950s and were in plants designed to make Plutonium for bombs. In other words they were in the early days and they weren't power stations.

                  At number five you get an incident that doesn't seem to have killed anyone at all. If these five are the worst accidents in about 70 years of the technology I really don't think that we have that much to concern ourselves with.

                  https://www.nei.org/resources/fact-sheets/lessons-from-1979-accident-at-three-mile-island

                  The main trouble with radiation is you can't see it, or feel it, while it is occurring. By the time you know it has happened you can't do anything much about it. That is why it is so scary.

    • Blazer 6.2
      12 February 2022 at 1:09 pm

      Ampol's (cheap-imo)takeover offer for Z Energy which has a 40%+ market share is contingent on the refinery closing.

      Huge multi national Ampol realise the refinery could become a factor in supply/demand/price issues that could affect profitibility.

  7. tsmithfield 7
    12 February 2022 at 9:15 am

    The irony is delicious.

    A lot of the comments here are in the tone that I would have expected to have seen on the BFD (or the defunct Whale Oil) about a Greenpeace protest.

    • Gypsy 7.1
      12 February 2022 at 10:55 am

      I have kept out of this discussion, preferring to absorb the various opinions of others. But your comment is spot on.

    • Stuart Munro 7.2
      12 February 2022 at 3:47 pm

      The righties love false equivalence – having no tenable arguments of their own.

  8. Graeme 8
    12 February 2022 at 9:16 am

    Well when the super efficient containerised supply chain falls to bits, go back to the old way.

    Refrigerated cargo ships are making a return to the NZ export scene

    …., in the past 12 months AFFCO New Zealand has successfully made two chartered reefer vessel shipments to the United States.

    ANZCO Foods and Silver Fern Farms have now come on board, and Port Taranaki has been included in the multi-port charter.

    Using the conventional shipping reduces the need to secure the containers, space on container vessels, and congested container shipping berths at the destination, where at some ports there is up to a month’s wait for access.

    “Another advantage is that when the vessel gets to the USA there are other options for berthing. We’ll be able to moor and unload the meat into wharfside coolstores for distribution and within a week turnaround and come back to New Zealand and Taranaki for another load,” Falvey said.

    • Ad 8.1
      12 February 2022 at 10:17 am

      I find it hard to understand why, when there are plenty of nuclear-powered military ships and submarines, there aren't more nuclear-powered supertankers.

      Granted it would take a lot of expensive port infrastructure to handle, and granted a lot of cities would be nervous, but it sure seems easier than trans-Pacific electrified airlines.

    • Grey Area 8.2
      12 February 2022 at 1:45 pm

      It's a pity we have to reinvent the wheel. Coastal shipping was a key part of Aotearoa/New Zealand's early development before we got all clever and modern. It's predicted to make a comeback which is great.

      This link is to a story is about a report commissioned by Waka Kotahi. They do get the occasional thing right, and I hope this one of them.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/blue-highway-govt-moots-25-40m-coastal-shipping-network

      Given what we are already experiencing and still to face more use of rail and coastal shipping make a lot of sense to me.

  9. Ross 9
    12 February 2022 at 9:20 am

    Some examples of police thuggery at the Wellington protest. Hopefully, the cops who have engaged in such disgraceful behaviour are held accountable. One can only hope that the same officers don’t treat their partners and children in the same way.

    http://www.facebook.com/100054764285485/videos/285027350395559

    • weka 9.1
      12 February 2022 at 9:45 am

      Of those three, the last one seems unnecessarily violent. The other two, we cannot see how they start so we can't know if the police response was disproportionate or not and if the people had resisted arrest or not.

      The one with the teenage boy, that should be investigated to see if the policeman on the right is planking on his head, hard to tell from the video but it does look like another policeman comes up and says something and he stops.

      Police can always do with looking at how they arrest people in such situations. I'm curious if you see the arrests as legitimate or not.

      • Molly 9.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:03 am

        Many of us who know serving members of the police will know that for a significant portion the word protestor has an immediate and negative response. This response is unrelated to the reason for protest, but prejudiced against the act itself.

        Whether this is a reaction to a pushback against authority, (which legitimises their own authority), or knowing they will be required to do crowd control in uncertain circumstances and the stress that accompanies that, I wouldn't know.

        I would also think there would be a certain personality type attracted to the job, that like structure and rules and has discomfort around the idea and form of protests.

        Unfortunately, sometimes there is a lack of self-awareness that removes the self-discipline required to respond well.

        • weka 9.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:11 am

          That makes a lot of sense. And the adrenaline and unpredictability of the situation as well, but I agree that the belief system one starts from influences how behaviour plays out in stressful situations.

          If we accept that the arrests are legitimate, I think the conversation then becomes how can social and political pressure on the NZ Police move the to ensure that those arrests are done fairly and with the minimum force needed.

          Likewise belief systems and political arguments. I suspect that Ross's belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong, therefore the police overstepping reinforces the belief that the mandates are wrong, round and round the circle. If the arrests aren't legitimate, are any arrests? Plenty of people at that protest will be anti-state and think the police should be disbanded. For those that believe these arrests are not legitimate, who should decide which ones are?

          My own perspective is having watched XR in the UK make excellent political use of the police's mandate to arrest, that we should focus on how police can be pressured to change their tactics and behaviour towards fairness and justice, as well as putting the stark reality of the purpose of the protest in their faces.

          • Molly 9.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:37 am

            I think that the experience of XR leaders and members, and the training and strategies that are conceived and taught have a marked difference in deployment and effect.

            I admire the XR approach, but understand that the current NZ protests don't have those human resources and skills available.

            • weka 9.1.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:58 am

              yeah, XR doesn't translate easily into the NZ context for a range of reasons. We need our own strategies.

      • Ross 9.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 10:22 am

        The other two, we cannot see how they start

        That's irrelevant because we know how they end. (Was George Floyd’s treatment OK because of what he did earlier?) What do you think would've happened if the naked woman hadn't been visited by the cop apparently kneeling on her? She was already lying face down and was being restrained by two cops. The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair. We should never make excuses for police misconduct.

        I suspect that Ross’s belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong.

        You suspect wrong.

        • Molly 9.1.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:34 am

          'The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair."

          I agree with this. Though I understand for many, their perspective will come from a place of personal lived experience.

          From my perspective, she wasn't resisting. I saw the blanket coming, but was disconcerted to see it being put over her head, and not kept until they could cover her body after she had been handcuffed. There is something particularly dehumanising about covering someone's head while their body is naked. When I consider how I feel when my head is covered, I have a sense of abject horror. To accompany that with a pressure of unknown origin would be terrifying.

          The threat of the woman, the non-resisting nature (until head covered) of their arrest, seems to indicate the headcovering and additional pressure was unnecessary and punitive.

          • Anne 9.1.2.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:55 am

            My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head. At that point the media camera (or whoever) were close enough to make her identifiable. Later as they walked her away from the scene she had her back to the cameras so it wasn't necessary.

            • Molly 9.1.2.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:05 am

              "My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head."

              Like I mentioned previously, everyone is going to have their own perspective on this action. Mine differs from yours. Yours requires a knowledge of intent, which even if it is true, is a case of bolting the stable door given that she was intentionally naked at a public protest with no obvious attempt at hiding identity.

              As I mentioned, I have a personal horror of having something put over my head, and see it as dehumanising to cover the head of someone that is naked. (The photos of the US military doing that in Abu Ghairib produce that visceral response in me.)

              Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.

              Really, we can only ask – could they have done better, ie. used less force and achieved the same?

              • Anne …
                12 February 2022 at 11:38 am

                Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.

                Neither my comment nor anyone else's as far as I can see was suggesting otherwise. It is acceptable as both of us have done… to muse on a possible reason for something. That is how it came across to me when I first saw the clip. More often than not there is more than one reason why police officers – or anyone for that matter – may take a certain course of action in a highly charged siuation.

                • Molly …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:01 pm

                  Agree.

                  Just know, as a lifelong asthmatic, the sensation of having my head covered is psychologically distressing with the attendant physical response of breathing difficulties.

                  For me, if this is police policy, it needs to be addressed. NZ has a high number of asthmatics, and many would feel discomfort. The dehumanising aspect of it bothers me as well.

          • weka 9.1.2.1.2
            12 February 2022 at 11:01 am

            From my perspective, she wasn't resisting.

            We can't see whether she was or not at the point they pulled her out by her hair.

            I also though the sheet over the head was a problem, and she clearly reacts to something in that that we cannot see. Adrenaline and panic in that situation would make many people react reflexively.

            It looked to me like the medic dropped it there because it wasn't possible to cover her body until she was cuffed, but I agree it could also be an intentional tactic, in which case it's bullshit.

            She did pull her arms free though and I can see how the police would see this as resisting and potentially her getting violent.

            • Molly 9.1.2.1.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:09 am

              Yes, as mentioned to Anne above, any interpretation is pure speculation, whether in approval or disapproval of police response. I'm not convinced all actions were necessary.

              I would much rather be in a discussion of unanimous appreciation of examples of how the police are handling the protests, but understand that is unlikely.

            • Anne 9.1.2.1.2.2
              12 February 2022 at 11:15 am

              My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked. It is a relatively common event apparently but this one happened to take place in a highly charged situation and in the presence of media.

              I'm sure those officers would have strictly followed protocol precisely because of that situation and the media presence.

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 11:43 am

                I'm not as confident about that last bit as you (there are all sorts of examples of police all over the world who do stupid and violent shit on camera). But it would make sense that they have specific protocols for arresting naked people, including in such a situation, and I agree it was highly charged and potentially dangerous.

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 11:53 am

                "I'm sure those officers would have strictly followed protocol precisely because of that situation and the media presence."

                If that protocol includes covering the head of the person, then I believe that needs to be addressed.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                12 February 2022 at 11:54 am

                Excellent, Anne! Can you get your Police relative to perhaps quote the section of the Arrest Manual that states (more or less)…

                "If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."

                No hurry.

                • Molly …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:05 pm

                  The difficulty arises Rosemary, is when Anne is able to provide such evidence.

                  Then we go from having to critique an incident, to having to address inhumane policy.

                  Let's hope that documentation doesn't exist.

                  (PS. Good to see you, hope you and yours are well.)

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2022 at 12:09 pm

                    you hope it doesn't exist?

                    • Molly …
                      12 February 2022 at 12:12 pm

                      A police manual that says:

                      '"If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."

                      Not a non-existent policy.

                      But would be interested in knowing what the actual policy is, to add some hard information to the discussion apart from all these reckons – myself included.

              • Ross …
                12 February 2022 at 12:26 pm

                My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked.

                Why would that be? Being naked is and of itself isn't a crime. If police have a problem with the sight of a naked body, their training needs to be improved.

                • joe90 …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:32 pm

                  Being naked is and of itself isn't a crime.

                  Unless you thought you wouldn't be observed, exposing any part of your genitals is.

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2022 at 12:39 pm

                    Context dependent I think.

                    Looks like it's legal depending on how and where nudity including genitals is done.

                    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country#New_Zealand

                    • weka …
                      12 February 2022 at 12:40 pm

                      In New Zealand, indecent exposure is considered to be where a person "intentionally and obscenely exposes any part of his or her genitals".[51] Otherwise there is no specific law prohibiting nudity in public places, although lesser charges may apply depending on the behaviour of the individual in question.

                      The High Court of New Zealand has upheld a conviction of disorderly conduct for nudity in the street, because it was not a place where nudity was known to occur or commonplace. Being nude in the street is likely to incur a small fine if a complaint is made against the person, or if the person ignores a police request to cover themselves. Being prosecuted for nudity on a public beach, or any place where nudity might be expected, is very unlikely.[52][53][54]

                      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecent_exposure#New_Zealand

                  • Ross …
                    12 February 2022 at 12:45 pm

                    Unless you thought you wouldn't be observed, exposing any part of your genitals is.

                    Wrong.

                    Naked cyclist not offensive, judge rules | Stuff.co.nz

                    Cyclists bare all for Golden Bay World Naked Bike Ride | Stuff.co.nz

                    • joe90 …
                      12 February 2022 at 1:09 pm

                      Go have an early AM slash in public unseen by anyone but the arresting police and find out. Indecent or not, exposing your genitals in public is a criminal offence.

                      https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/man-ignored-warning-behaviour

                      http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10232009/Naked-man-not-indecent-exposure

                      https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1981/0113/latest/DLM53587.html

                    • weka …
                      12 February 2022 at 3:58 pm

                      Urinating in public is offensive though and that first link doesn't say he was charged for exposing his genitals in a public place.

                      Second link, dude was having a bath, naked, outside primary school. If he'd been on a beach and discrete for instance this wouldn't be considered offensive. Thus,

                      In his ruling, Justice Geoffrey Venning said that "as in most cases, context is everything".

                      "Mr Ker's actions were potentially an interference with the rights of others," he said.

                      "Primary school children should not be potentially subjected to men exposing their genitals in a way visible to them while at school.

                      "Against that, the exposure of Mr Ker's genitals was in the course of his washing himself. While thoughtless and inappropriate, the decision to wash himself which led to the exposure was not as blatant as other examples of exposure.

                      "Assessing Mr Ker's behaviour as best as I can … I consider that, while it may not reach the standard of revulsion or loathing required for obscenity, it clearly satisfies the test for offensive behaviour as arousing feelings of disgust and outrage in the minds of reasonable people.

                      "I conclude that Mr Ker did not obscenely expose his genitals but, in a public place, he behaved in an offensive manner."

                      From the legislation,

                      … who, in or within view of any public place, intentionally and obscenely exposes any part of his or her genitals.

                      My emphasis.

        • weka 9.1.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 10:41 am

          You don't think the mandates are wrong?

          That's irrelevant because we know how they end. (Was George Floyd’s treatment OK because of what he did earlier?)

          The issue is if the force used is proportionate. To know that we have to know if they had been resisting arrest and if they had been violent to police already. I'm not seeing anything even close to what happened to George Floyd and this kind of hyperbole is just a bullshit diversion from what the issues in the Wellington arrests are. Obviously the behaviour of police and Floyd was completely relevant to what happened and who was culpable.

          What do you think would've happened if the naked woman hadn't been visited by the cop apparently kneeling on her? She was already lying face down and was being restrained by two cops. The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary.

          Like I said, we can't see why they were using force at all. Why didn't she just walk out when they said she was under arrest? In the video, she clearly gets her hands free, I don't think it's a stretch to think the police believed she was resisting arrest.

          And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair.

          Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?

          I'd also like to know how she should have been arrested without pulling on her hair if she was forcefully resisting arrest. What if she was punch or kicking the cops?

          We should never make excuses for police misconduct.

          True, we shouldn't. We also shouldn't assume we know what happened.

          Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event. You still haven't said if you think the arrests are legitimate or not. This matters, because if they are legitimate, the debate is then about what force should be used. Otherwise, just let them sit on parliament grounds for a month if they want to.

          • Rosemary McDonald 9.1.2.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 11:32 am

            Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event.

            You have got the stats that support your determination that these people pose a significant public health risk? I'm thinking about Soundsplash, that just snuck in before the Red Light was activated. Do you know the final tally associated with that event that was open to only Vaccine pass holders?

            I take it that the last two anti-mandate protest marches in Welly resulted in lots of cases? Especially the last one?

            From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…

            What is it with that? I need to see the research that proves masks are necessary outdoors. Being able to breathe the air unimpeded must surely be better for one's health.

            weka. Omicron is going to hopefully do the rounds of the entire country and we'll all hopefully develop some degree of natural immunity….because you're certainly not going to get the same quality immunity from the Pfizer product.

            This is a good thing. Our immune systems need a good work out periodically so we are all able to better deal with harmful pathogens with less dependence on rapacious Big Pharma.

            It is a very dangerous path we are being dragged down…this absolute dependence on these so-called vaccines that are being forced on us when they are of limited efficacy and suspect safety. Very dangerous, and I'm surprised that more here on TS can't see this.

            So I support the protesters anti vaccine mandate demands …and I'm not the only one.

            • weka 9.1.2.2.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:40 am

              You have got the stats that support your determination that these people pose a significant public health risk?

              Yes. Not using my Saturday morning finding and reposting them as this has been covered at length already. And explained to you many times, which even yesterday you were denying.

              I'm thinking about Soundsplash, that just snuck in before the Red Light was activated. Do you know the final tally associated with that event that was open to only Vaccine pass holders?

              Soundsplash shouldn't have happened. Look up McFlock's comment yesterday for the numbers.

              I take it that the last two anti-mandate protest marches in Welly resulted in lots of cases? Especially the last one?

              No idea, did they? You appear to not understand what the concepts of risk and risk assessment are.

              From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…

              What is it with that? I need to see the research that proves masks are necessary outdoors. Being able to breathe the air unimpeded must surely be better for one's health.

              You're an idiot if after two years of pandemic you fail to understand the various reasons why some people do this. Or maybe you are being disingenuous again and do in fact understand but choose to misrepresent. I actually have no idea which.

              weka. Omicron is going to hopefully do the rounds of the entire country and we'll all hopefully develop some degree of natural immunity….because you're certainly not going to get the same quality immunity from the Pfizer product.

              Thanks for wishing so many of us at risk Rosemary. /sarc

              I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes. Get back to me when there is some evidence for natural immunity and how that protects the public generally and then we can have a conversation. Myself, I think it will probably eventually happen, I don't think we are there yet.

              This is a good thing. Our immune systems need a good work out periodically so we are all able to better deal with harmful pathogens with less dependence on rapacious Big Pharma.

              Sure, but I'm wondering if you would take that approach if the death rate was 50%. There are limits to your philosophy and the debate is all about where those limits are.

              It is a very dangerous path we are being dragged down…this absolute dependence on these so-called vaccines that are being forced on us when they are of limited efficacy and suspect safety. Very dangerous, and I'm surprised that more here on TS can't see this.

              I think it's potentially dangerous, the vaccines had imperfect but still useful efficacy, and all pharmaceutical medicines have side effects that can harm people, but I don't think it's as dangerous as letting covid run free at this time.

              We’ve swapped rhetoric. Now what?

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                12 February 2022 at 12:02 pm

                Never mind the rhetoric….what about those injured and killed by the Pfizer product? I have heard nothing from you about this. Or are you unquestioningly accepting the official line that side effects are mild and transitory and myocarditis from Covid is much worse than from the 'vaccine'?

                Sure our case and death numbers are low here and not many of us know someone who has died from Covid…but I bet most of us know at least one or two people who have had significant and persistent adverse effects from the Pfizer product.

                Do we just pretend that these people don't exist?

                Because those protesters aren't.

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:11 pm

                  Never mind the rhetoric….what about those injured and killed by the Pfizer product? I have heard nothing from you about this. Or are you unquestioningly accepting the official line that side effects are mild and transitory and myocarditis from Covid is much worse than from the 'vaccine'?

                  Fuck off. I delayed my vaccination out of legitimate concern for side effects because I was too unwell last year, and I talked about the issue generally in 2021. You really have a problem with listening and comprehending nuance, and I'm not buying into this bullshit binary framing.

              • Ross …
                12 February 2022 at 12:39 pm

                I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes.

                I just wish the Government would at least try to reduce child deaths in driveways. Doing nothing is cruel and heartless. I see another child was killed in their driveway on New Year's Eve. That follows similar deaths in 2021.

                Medical experts have been bringing this issue to the attention of policy-makers for at least 20 years. Do you think we'll ever have any politicians that have the political will and courage to address the problem?

                https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/child-2-dies-after-rotorua-driveway-accident-family-member-steals-from-doctor-trying-to-save-childs-life/T74LM3KRWAIMSLWEP72CKLJQHE/

            • Shanreagh 9.1.2.2.1.2
              12 February 2022 at 1:35 pm

              From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…

              I think this comment by your friend shows as much about their non comprehension over the best practice for mask wearing as it does about the way the virus spreads.

              Mask wearing in wellington in the situations your contact will have seen is because there are many situations in day to day Wellington outside that a person cannot maintain the recommended physical distancing

              like

              every single lunch time walking down LQ to get your lunch,

              every time you go to the wharf or local pocket parks to eat your lunch

              every single time you wait for a bus or train on a crowded bus stop/train platform.

              Walking down the streets in the CBD at times is a mater of being shoulder to shoulder and ducking in and out of people. There is no room to spread out like in country towns. The people density does not allow it.

              If you are outside but in a crowded situation within the aerosol transmission circle of someone with the virus wouldn't it be wise just to wear the mask as way of preventing spread? Usually if I am going out and about in my suburb it put the mask on, then you are prepared for all eventualities…….makes sense.

              I must admit I am appalled at the stupid disregard for actions to designed protect oneself and others that is being shown at the protest.

              Epidemiologist Rod Jackson said it would be "very surprising" if Covid-19 wasn’t spreading among the protesters, and their protest risked becoming a superspreader event with ramifications for the entire country.

              https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300515562/covid19-nz-epidemiologists-warn-wellington-protest-could-help-omicron-spread

              Is it uncommon for anti vaxxers in your circle to wear masks?

              That mask wearing in risky situations would attract comment sounds as though it is either not understood or not practiced.

              Hence my intuition telling me when we first started with the vaccines and masks that non mask wearers in situations where prudent people would wear a mask were likely to be unvaccinated and possibly 'live' was correct.

              Then there is this view that I quoted yesterday from yesterday from a commentator who is giving careful views on the protest as it unfolds

              Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara

              'One of the saddest thing is seeing protestors determined to spread the virus amongst each other, the enacting of the meta reality imported from the US that there is no virus, and that it is the vaccine that is the cause of mass deaths.'

              Sorry Weka I am not able to get to link this again as I did yesterday. It just does not go to the individual tweet no matter what I do.

              • Tony Veitch (not etc.) …
                13 February 2022 at 5:24 am

                There's a comment from a reply on that twitter feed about a protestor called Amanda / Mandy who had the snuffles and a tickly throat and had tested positive to covid. And not wearing a mask, of course.

                It's sure to become a super spreader event.

          • Ross 9.1.2.2.2
            12 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

            Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?

            You're asking the wrong question. Police didn't need to cover her up if she's chosen to be naked. As I’ve said, being naked isn't a crime. If she had broken the law, police were entitled to arrest her in a non-violent manner. What law had she broken?

            • weka 9.1.2.2.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 12:36 pm

              afaik all the arrests were because the crowd had been trespassed and refused to leave.

              Not sure if they're also breaking any health orders.

              Covering her up may be part of the arrest protocol and designed to make the arrest easier for the police and prevent issues of alleged sexual assault. No-one has the right to be naked while being arrested afaik. Let me know if they do.

            • mpledger 9.1.2.2.2.2
              12 February 2022 at 2:05 pm

              I didn't see the incident but perhaps the police had reasons to believe she was not competent to make decisions for herself e.g. drunk, stoned etc.

    • Jenny how to get there 9.2
      12 February 2022 at 11:27 am

      I don't blame the police. The police have been put in an unenviable position.

      I blame Trevor Mallard for pitting the police against the protesters.

      Mallard is impulsive bully boy with a record of violence. Trevor Mallard is the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Let us hope that wiser heads prevail to get Trevor Mallard to rescind his trespass order.

      • mpledger 9.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 2:13 pm

        The protestors are a hazard. Their cars/trucks/vans are blocking access ways and if there is any kind of emergency then it could become incredibly dangerous.

        • Jenny how to get there 9.2.1.1
          13 February 2022 at 6:14 am

          mpledger

          12 February 2022 at 2:13 pm

          The protestors are a hazard. Their cars/trucks/vans are blocking access ways and if there is any kind of emergency then it could become incredibly dangerous.

          I agree these vehicles need to be moved as soon as possible. I can't believe that this has been allowed.

          ​​​​​The Wellington City Council have a list of a approved tow truck companies. These contractors need to be given all the resources they need to carry out their lawful business.

          That this hasn't been done is a failure of leadership.

          Instead the authorities are gearing up for a direct confrontation with the protesters.

          Leaving them with their vehicles almost seems that the authorities want them to stay so that the can stay so that we can have this confrontation.

          How mature is that?

      • Descendant Of Smith 9.2.2
        12 February 2022 at 5:23 pm

        I agree Mallard is a bully. Completely unnecessary to put the sprinklers on – let alone through the night. Couldn't believe how stupid he can be. Idiot.

        Typical from well-off people who think it is funny to treat the poor and unwell like shit. It is just part of that stick approach taken to welfare – policy and decisions made by people who live in well-off areas without any actual poor people.

        I don't agree with the protestors but I agree even less with doing this sort of crap to them. Puerile.

        • weka 9.2.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 5:39 pm

          yep, and it's like adding fuel to the fire of dissatisfaction with the government. Really stupid. It's also a crowd that understands the value of overcoming adversity and how that makes you stronger.

        • weka 9.2.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 5:40 pm

          Do we know it was Mallard's decision or that he knew it was happening?

        • Jenny how to get there 9.2.2.3
          12 February 2022 at 5:56 pm

          The really stupid thing is that Mallard is doing what these demonstrators want. They want to draw the government into a confrontation.

          Mallard is doing more damage to this government than the protesters.

          It's a tragedy in the making that an intemperate bullyboy with a history of violence is the one calling the shots here.

          I mean Trevor Mallard is someone you couldn't trust to hold down a fund raising cake stall without getting into a heated argument with a member of the public.

          The Prime Minister needs to take Mallard aside and have a quiet word in his ear to cool it.

          • alwyn 9.2.2.3.1
            12 February 2022 at 11:44 pm

            She'd have to choose the correct ear of course. Trevor is deaf in at least one of them. I'm not sure which one but he refers to it in Parliament quite often.

        • Grafton Gully 9.2.2.4
          12 February 2022 at 7:13 pm

          They dealt with it though, that's the main thing. Quickly made what look to me like well considered drains, not too big, just right for the job so far and capable of enlarging and extending if need be.

  10. Cricklewood 10
    12 February 2022 at 9:32 am

    Came across this, watch the video the police descended into thuggery pretty quickly. They cop that stuck his knee on the womans head/neck was out of line was completely unnecessary she was already on the ground and covered.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/anti-mandate-convoy-videos-call-into-question-police-claims-of-very-professional-response-to-protest.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

    • weka 10.1
      12 February 2022 at 10:13 am

      if you watch carefully, she struggles and gets her arms free. He walks up calmly, then firmly but not violently holds her head on the ground so they can cuff her wrists. I'm guessing this is standard arrest technique in such a situation.

      • Cricklewood 10.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:48 am

        I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The knee on the back of head like that is not something I'm comfortable with nor the way she was dragged from the crowd…

        On a brighter note bloody hilarious how Trevor's sprinkler stunt has backfired. Someones turned up with decoys and they're digging ponds and planting trees….

        • weka 10.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:57 am

          I don't know if either were warranted, I wasn't there. I'm guessing (because we can't see) that the knee was on the side of her head, not the back of it.

          If she had resisted arrest and been punching or kicking the cops (out of sight of the video) what do you think they should have done to arrest her? The thing that interests me here is whether the arrests are legitimate and how much force shoud be used. In other words, are the people objecting doing so because they don't believe the arrests should be happening at all.

          On a brighter note bloody hilarious how Trevor's sprinkler stunt has backfired. Someones turned up with decoys and they're digging ponds and planting trees….

          haha, awesome.

        • Patricia Bremner 10.1.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 11:11 am

          Another interesting fact. An aptronym that matched the occupation of the lawn by the lady who declared she would 'divorce her husband for getting the booster because he'll die you know" Name Anne Looney. (Was in the Granny)

          • Cricklewood 10.1.1.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 11:34 am

            Without doubt she is quite unwell, personally I don't think she should have been featured like she has nor named. I suspect it's going to be very detrimental to her long term. Also an example of MSM going out of their way to be cast the protesters in a bad light.

            Also an example of how the stresses of Covid can effect peoples mental health and family situations very badly. She needed empathy not ridicule.

            • weka 10.1.1.2.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:45 am

              I didn't pick up that she was unwell, but completely agree about the potential impact on her if she is highly stressed.

              • Cricklewood …
                12 February 2022 at 12:47 pm

                Speculation on my part, but given how distressed she seemed and a longer cut of the "voxpop" I saw she was convinced that he was going to die from the vax.

                To get to that point I feel it likely there are mental health issues at play.

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:52 pm

                  I haven't seen the longer version. I have friends that believe mass people are going to die from the covid vaccine this year. I don't think they are mentally unwell. I'm not sure how to think about it tbh.

          • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.2.2
            12 February 2022 at 11:38 am

            Another interesting fact…

            [deleted]

            The division began that day Patricia Bremner, and Ardern initiated it.

            Families are being fractured over this….for no scientific reason.

            [assertions of fact without links or backup deleted. You’re just back from a ban for the same thing, at some point my patience will run out again, but currently people get one chance and then I just delete. You’ve had yours – weka

            • weka 10.1.1.2.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 11:49 am

              mod note. You might also want to read this as you were away when it went up.

              .https://thestandard.org.nz/some-notes-on-moderation/

            • Rosemary McDonald 10.1.1.2.2.2
              12 February 2022 at 12:25 pm

              assertions of fact without links or backup deleted.

              Sorry about that…I got criticised the last time I linked to these but it is with extreme delight that I will post again .

              Lest we forget.

              A way that we could keep vaccinated people safe from those who have not been.

              Vaccinations are our armour. They help keep us safe.

              So my message to the New Zealanders who have not yet had their first dose – if you want summer, if you want to go to bars and restaurants. Get vaccinated. If you want to get a haircut. Get vaccinated. If you want to go to a concert, or a festival – get vaccinated. If you want to go to a gym, or a sports events, get vaccinated.

              If you are not vaccinated, there will be everyday things you will miss out on.

              And if you are vaccinated you can be assured that in the new framework, you will get to enjoy the things you love, secure in the knowledge that the people around you, and the environment you are in, is as safe as possible in a COVID world.

              If you have done the right thing to keep yourself and others safe, to look after one another, you should feel safe. You should be protected from those who haven’t made that choice.

              https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-speech-notes-covid-19-protection-framework

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 12:31 pm

                Sorry about that…I got criticised the last time I linked to these…

                we've been here before. I don't care if you get criticised. I care that you continually make assertions of fact and don't back them up. You've sucked up a lot of moderator time (not just mine) on this alone in the past year. Every time you want to make an assertion of fact, back it up with a link and a quote and an explanation.

  11. Ad 11
    12 February 2022 at 10:13 am

    For anyone who yearns to get to some other place, see if you can stay still watching this one:

    Masaka Kids Africana Dancing To Jerusalema By Master KG Feat Nomcebo & Burna Boy – YouTube

  12. Anker 12
    12 February 2022 at 11:02 am

    https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127753866/the-people-behind-the-capital-protest-many-adamant-days-on

    interesting interviews with the protesters.

    A lesbian couple, one of whom had lost her job as a bee keeper due to mandates. Same with a physiotherapist from Northland.

    And a women, with the somewhat unfortunate surname of Looney…..she is willing to lose her longstanding marriage as her husband is pro vaccination. These people are unlikely to be deterred by rain

    I really have no idea of what is the best way forward with this situation. My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.

    • solkta 12.1
      12 February 2022 at 11:11 am

      “We are here to get our freedom back, we want our jobs back, we want to go back to love and hugs, we miss it, we miss the normality,” Larnia To’angutu, one of the hundreds at Parliament, said.

      Larnia To’angutu lost her job as a beekeeper for Plant and Food Research because she chose not to get vaccinated. She said it “sucked pretty bad” to be unemployed.

      Their stance on vaccination and mandates has divided their family, who would like them to take a Covid-19 test to see an 86-year-old grandmother.

      “We believe in the freedom and the right to choose what we would like to do with our own body according to our own experiences, because everyone is so individual,” Whitney To’angutu said.

      That just shows the level of selfish we are dealing with, wanting to visit your 86 year old grandmother unvaxed and untested.

      • mauī 12.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 11:50 am

        Yes she looks like she's straight from the Trump loving, hard right kind of selfish 🙄 Perhaps she just wants to kill grandma?

        You do know that vaccination and testing aren't a barrier to the virus right?

        • weka 12.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 11:52 am

          you do know how they (and other tools) reduce risk right?

          • mauī 12.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 12:11 pm

            If another family member is vaccinated and therefore doesn't require testing before visiting grandma, does that reduce or increase grandma's risk?

            • weka 12.1.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 12:14 pm

              the vaccinated person is less likely to have covid than the unvaccinated person, and thus is less of a risk. From memory they’re also likely to have a lower viral load if they are infected and asymptomatic.

              If the unvaxxed person doesn't want to get vaccinated, they can reduce their risk to their grandmother by getting tested before visiting.

              They should all be doing things like fitted masks, distancing, good ventilation, spending time outside if possible, monitoring symptoms, hand/face hygiene, and so on.

              What is so difficult to understand about that? Do people really not understand risk assessment and reduction?

              • Molly …
                12 February 2022 at 1:30 pm

                weka, I've been looking (albeit sporadically) for the difference between vaccinated people and unvaccinated people getting Covid, and can't find a definitive comparison.

                The government Covid website specifically refers to:

                Efficacy is the measure used in clinical trials

                Efficacy measures how well a vaccine can prevent symptomatic infection (and sometimes transmission) in clinical trials. This is under ideal and controlled conditions, comparing people who receive the vaccine with those who receive a saline placebo.

                Effectiveness is the measure used in the real-world

                Effectiveness is how well the vaccine performs in the real world outside of the clinical trials in a mixed population. We would expect a vaccine with a high efficacy to be highly effective in the real-world but these measures are unlikely to be the same.

                They don't say that vaccination protects against infection – just symptomatic infection.

                Looking specifically at the risk of transmission, there may be some benefit, but its only a suggestion. There is no statement here on the difference on the shedding of asymptomatic vaccinated people, vs infected non-vaccinated people. In reality, I think the self-care of symptomatic un-vaccinated would result in their removal from the public anyway. More harm may actually be done by asymptomatic infections, unknowingly participating in their usual life.

                I think it is understandable that people are interpreting this in such a way to question the evidence weight behind continuing vaccine passports and mandates.

                I’m probably going to exit the commenting soon, just heading out. But would be interested if you did have a link to data on the difference, and would appreciate your thoughts on the result of health care etc on symptomatic people restricting movement and wider infections.

                • Rosemary McDonald …
                  12 February 2022 at 1:51 pm

                  I have looked at the Mystery's websites, often, and have found a dearth of actual peer reviewed research (other than Pfizer/BionTech or Astra Zeneca publications) to support any of their statements.

                  Hope you are well and the heat is not too taxing. Just got a call from young tane who traveled to Welly overnight. He was there last week as part of the Convoy, and returned North for work. He says that even the dogs are friendly…with each other and the humans. He has $$$ to donate to those providing basic support for the team and is struggling to unload them. So much donated stuff from so many Kiwis all over the rohe. Looks like my donation will go to the guys who are providing the portaloos. History being made here.smiley

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2022 at 2:05 pm

                    that side of the protest is impressive. I really hope they can build off this in terms of organising and looking after people for the long term. There's serious community building potential here alongside whatever politics are being worked on.

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    12 February 2022 at 3:46 pm

                    I have looked at the Mystery's websites, often, and have found a dearth of actual peer reviewed research (other than Pfizer/BionTech or Astra Zeneca publications) to support any of their statements.

                    Here's a MoH update from December 2021. "She's pretty big job!"

                    http://covid-19vaccine.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/i/760764CC64FD17D92540EF23F30FEDED

                    If you scroll down to the "Resources and Subscriptions" panel near the end, then there are some useful links, e.g.

                    https://covid.immune.org.nz/

                    https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-resources

                    https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/covid-landing.asp

                    I would express the belief that "Every vaccination brings us closer, together", but understand that not everyone can take part. The quantity of evidence of risks associated with COVID-19 infection is mind-boggling. The benefits of COVID-19 infection are more difficult to discern. Indeed it appears that several million people have perished due to COVID-19 infection – a global tragedy.

                    NZ’s Misery of Health is a small outfit in the global scheme of things. https://beckerguides.wustl.edu/covid19/vaccine

                    This is a useful resource for COVID-19 vaccine-related literature.
                    https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-vaccines

                    This looks good too:
                    https://asm.org/COVID/COVID-19-Research-Registry/Home

                    For example, it has a link to a recent paper on cardiovascular outcomes of COVID-19 (pre-Omicron) highlighted by swordfish @20:

                    Long term cardiovascular outcomes of COVID-19 [7 Feb]

                    Finally, as the pandemic, with all its dynamic features, continues to progress, as the virus continues to mutate and as new variants emerge, as treatment strategies of acute and post-acute COVID-19 evolve and as vaccine uptake improves, it is possible that the epidemiology of cardiovascular manifestations in COVID-19 might also change over time.

                    In summary, using a national cohort of people with COVID-19, we show that risk and 12-month burden of incident cardiovascular disease are substantial and span several cardiovascular disease categories (ischemic and non-ischemic heart disease, dysrhythmias and others). The risks and burdens of cardiovascular disease were evident even among those whose acute COVID-19 did not necessitate hospitalization. Care pathways of people who survived the acute episode of COVID-19 should include attention to cardiovascular health and disease.

                    • Rosemary McDonald …
                      12 February 2022 at 4:37 pm

                      Now that's 50 seconds of my life I'll not get back. I call for peer reviewed scientific papers about Pfizer product safety and efficacy and you send me on a click- bait level nos dive into more fluff.

                      Sheesh. I expected better from you Drowsy "Unite for Covid" M. Kram. At least a link to a Scientific American pharma funded puff piece.sad

                  • Drowsy M. Kram …
                    12 February 2022 at 6:07 pm

                    Sorry to have wasted 50 seconds of your life Rosemary. I suspected none of those 9 links would meet your rigourous scientific standards, although why this is the case remains a mystery of misinformation.

                    If you're looking for information on how awful the Covid-19 vaccines are, then I can't help you at the moment. When I come across peer-reviewed research showing that the mRNA vaccines are in fact pure poison then I'll be sure to shunt it your way without delay, and report that rascally Dr Ramanathan to the Medical Council of NZ while I'm at it.
                    laugh Sheesh!

                    Please note: The best protection from having a severe outcome from COVID-19 infection is to get #getcovidvaccinated and #boosted asap if you are eligible to do so. #vaccineswork #vaccinessavelives

                • weka …
                  12 February 2022 at 1:58 pm

                  It's complex and I see it as risk assessment and choosing the best path given a range of intersecting issues and tools. But, on the issue of infection by omicron, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, afaik the chances of getting covid are higher in unvaccinated people (and this in turn affects transmission rates in the two groups)

                  eg (random google search)

                  That suggests that the Omicron variant is much better than Delta at breaking through the immunity conferred by vaccines. However, the team says that a third, booster shot still cuts the risk of Omicron infection by 50%. The findings have not yet been peer reviewed.

                  https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00283-4

                  I interpret that as vaccination has a useful efficacy when used alongside the other tools like the NZ govt is doing. Anti-vaxxers interpret that as it being useless or almost useless.

                  The issue is actually whether the degree of overall efficacy of all of our response justifies the mandates. I think it does at this stage. I think we could and should have looked after people who were badly affected by the mandates far better than we have, financially, careers, socially and so on. It's not a simple mandate vs no mandate situation for me.

                  NZ is in unique situation in terms of omicron and covid generally. We are pioneering ways that not many other countries have done or been able to.

                  Almost no-one is talking about long covid. That's one of the biggest motivators for me in terms of my position on the NZ response. I don't care if people don't want to be vaccinated, I do care if they want other people to not be, or if they want omicron to run free. It's alarmingly negligent.

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2022 at 2:00 pm

                    also, most of what I see from the let it rip crowd is based on the impact on individuals and doesn't seem to understand what public health is. For me the implications collectively are blinding.

    • tsmithfield 12.2
      12 February 2022 at 11:16 am

      “My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.”

      Don't worry about that. I understand there is some concern that the Omicron outbreak might not peak soon enough, and we could reach the peak during winter when there is lots of other bugs around and hospitals tend to be quite full anyway.

      So a super spreader event that speeds the process up might not be a bad thing.

      • weka 12.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 11:55 am

        Don't worry about that. I understand there is some concern that the Omicron outbreak might not peak soon enough, and we could reach the peak during winter when there is lots of other bugs around and hospitals tend to be quite full anyway.

        Concern by who?

        We might also find that we don't peak but have a slow spread over the year. Or maybe we have a steady rise then fall over the next few months rather than the sharp peak that was anticipated. Or maybe it's all about to break loose this month. Precaution serves us well here, if people are willing to play their part.

        So a super spreader event that speeds the process up might not be a bad thing.

        if you want the certain risk of people to dying, becoming disabled, and the large negative impacts on the health system.

        • tsmithfield 12.2.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 12:12 pm

          For instance:

          "An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere."

          https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/460906/nz-covid-19-omicron-strategy-too-cautious-epidemiologist

          "The biggest headache with battling Omicron in the colder months, of course, was that health services would be already stretched dealing with winter ills like the flu or RSV, which caused a national crisis last year."

          https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/explained-why-the-timing-of-omicrons-arrival-matters/O4OUNGNDNM2MA5ACRVN75OB5LE/

          In light of those comments, I guess we don't know if a super spreader event would be a good thing or a bad thing taking everything into account. I guess time will tell.

          • weka 12.2.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 12:17 pm

            Ta.

            From the first link,

            An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere.

            Are there places where omicron is no longer active?

            • tsmithfield 12.2.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

              I don't know about "no longer active".

              But from coverage I have seen in other countries, the tendency of fast moving viruses like Omicron is to rapidly infect lots of people until it becomes progressively harder to find people who haven't experienced the virus. So, it doesn't necessarily mean no-one gets it anymore, though, who knows, it might.

              But quite possibly just that the number of new infections becomes so small it is no longer a problem.

              If we can be at that sort of level by winter, then it is probably what the authorities are looking for I expect.

              Though getting the balance right between not overwhelming the health system now vs not overwhelming it in winter is not going to be easy I expect.

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 12:45 pm

                do you really want NZ public health to be based on maybes and possibly and quite likely?

                • tsmithfield …
                  12 February 2022 at 12:48 pm

                  So far as the progression of Omicron, does anyone have anything much better than that?

                • Ross …
                  12 February 2022 at 1:05 pm

                  do you really want NZ public health to be based on maybes and possibly and quite likely?

                  But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong. Should we be spending billions of dollars, that we don't have, based on assumptions, maybes and possibilities? How will you feel when we experience cuts to health, education and welfare to address this indebtedness?

                  • weka …
                    12 February 2022 at 1:48 pm

                    But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong.

                    Citation needed for both the 38,000 deaths claim, and that their 'assumptions' were wrong. I'm only asking once before I step into moderation mode.

                  • The Unliving …
                    12 February 2022 at 1:53 pm

                    Ah yes, more goalpost moving and circular reasoning.

                    But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong.

                    They were wrong because the response to COVID-19 took these assumptions into account so as to prevent that level of harm. What should we have done instead? How many deaths are you prepared to accept?

                    How will you feel when we experience cuts to health, education and welfare to address this indebtedness?

                    That's the fallacy of begging the question. Why would there be a need for cuts to these services?

                  • Barfly …
                    12 February 2022 at 1:55 pm

                    I believe you are a bad faith commenter though I suppose it is possible you are simply a bit thick.

          • joe90 12.2.1.1.2
            12 February 2022 at 1:14 pm

            "An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere."

            Australia, huh.

            //

            The head of Australia’s peak aged care body has linked New South Wales premier Dominic Perrottet’s decision to lift Covid restrictions late last year to the deaths of hundreds of aged care residents.

            Appearing before a NSW parliamentary inquiry into the government’s response to Covid-19 on Friday, the chief executive of Aged and Community Services Australia, Paul Sadler, said his organisation – which represents not-for-profit aged care homes – had in December raised the risks posed to the sector from a widespread lifting of restrictions once cases of Omicron began appearing in the community.

            “Of course what happened was the premier made the decision to continue down the pathway of opening up and within days the number of outbreaks in residential [facilities] skyrocketed and there are now hundreds of deaths in NSW in aged care since that decision was taken,” Sadler said.

            https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/11/nsw-decision-to-lift-covid-restrictions-linked-to-hundreds-of-aged-care-deaths

            • McFlock 12.2.1.1.2.1
              12 February 2022 at 1:49 pm

              Of course it will be active for longer. We're back to "flattening the curve". Fucksake. Less harm over a longer period, vs the utter shit we see overseas.

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 2:03 pm

                This is what I mean when I say is it ignorance* or disingenuous. It's like people are just making up what the pandemic response is and then arguing against their phantom pandemic response.

                *has to be willful at this point, although I concede that people are stressed and feeling attacks on dearly held principles.

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 2:11 pm

                as an aside, do you know if there is reliable reporting on the Otago covid positive cases and where they are? I've got the locations of interest map, but the MoH still seems to be logging cases by DHB. Can't quite figure out where the MSM are getting specific locations for actual cases from.

                • McFlock …
                  12 February 2022 at 11:29 pm

                  No idea. The lack of LoI for the Dunedin case suggests they went to maybe Q'town and got a positive result on return. Maybe it's in the live briefings? Haven't watched one of those for months lol

    • alwyn 12.3
      12 February 2022 at 11:49 am

      I wonder if she had taken her husband's name when she married him?

      The she would be able to say "My husband is a Looney. He proved it when he got vaccinated. I want a divorce.".

      • Jenny how to get there 12.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 12:36 pm

        If she is convinced her husband is going to die because of the jab, why does she need a divorce?

  13. Anker 13
    12 February 2022 at 11:25 am
    • I agree with you Solkta about it being selfish to want to visit elderly GM without texting or vacinne.

    I think some people seem unable to appreciate that we are in a Global pandemic. Our sacrifices have been so few compared to people who went through for example WW 2.

    A correction on my earlier comment…should have been it will go really badly for the health system down here. My bottom line is always the poor nurses and doctors whose health and lives are at risk due to covid and the stress and burnout that will come from managing the burgeoning workload that is yet to come.

    if they really don’t want to get faxed, that is their choice. But how about lying low so you don’t spread the virus? Some of us are already doing that anyway, even though we are boosted.

  14. Subliminal 14
    12 February 2022 at 11:33 am

    A great piece of economic writing by James Galbraith that

    discusses the shift of US capitalism from an industrial state to what he calls a predator state: a finance-led, military-centered corporate republic that continues to prevail. To overcome it, he lays out what is needed to focus on employment, stability and adjustments to rising resource costs.

    Contrary to simplistic neoliberal idealism

    … it was an industrial capitalism that was rooted in the functioning of large organizations of large industrial corporations. And not in this notion that really was a hangover from the 18th century of essentially independent, small businesses and farmers and so forth all transacting with the so-called market as the dominant institution.

    It looks at some of the world economies that have retained an industrial focus that limits the asset stripping tendencies of predatory finance and also the logic of BRI infrastructure building in a resource constrained world. He treats the economy as having the same form as a biophysical system,

    On climate change

    First of all, we have to recognize we have some obligations to the planet. Those obligations are to move away from the cheap and dirty fuels. And to create systems that are sustainable over a long period of time. This is partly an engineering problem but it also is a question of resource allocation.

    And you’re going to have to put resources into that to make it happen. Economists talk rather glibly about carbon taxes and say: Okay, we can get the price of using carbon up. But it doesn’t work that way. People who own a gasoline powered car cannot immediately switch to something else. It’s not as though they have a horse in the backyard that doesn’t emit carbon dioxide.

    So, one has to build systems that are functional. And in order to do that, you’ll have to commit resources. In committing resources, you’re going to have a lot of things that are you’re using resources for that are not immediately consumable. And they will yield benefits down the road. And so you have to manage that transition.

    On the military

    …in the modern world the military advantage is with the defense. It’s with those who control their own territory. Because first of all, it’s technology. Secondly, it’s the expectation that at the end of the day, they’re going to be the ones who are going to still be there. That nobody’s going to stay on somebody else’s territory indefinitely.

    And so we shouldn’t expect that the security arrangements for the world can be like what we imagined, what some people imagined they would be 30 years ago. We have to come to grips with this. It means we really should for our own sake and for the sake of our economy completely reconfigure our military posture; recognize lots of things that we have are not, not going to be useful.

    And we need to build a global security framework which takes account of the power centers that have emerged which we need to accept and deal with. We did this in the Cold War when the Soviet Union was essentially the major security partner, adversary, however you want to describe it. Essentially a balance of power, not a particularly happy one, but one which kept conflict down, did develop.

    We need to recognize that we’re not going to escape having to do that again. And maybe you don’t like the countries that you deal with, but that’s not the point. You have to deal with them. And you have to come to the best security arrangements you can achieve. We can’t pretend that it is within our power to prevent that.

  15. vto 15
    12 February 2022 at 12:03 pm

    The rain is going to absolutely pound down on the wellington lynch mob tonight

    • weka 15.1
      12 February 2022 at 12:18 pm

      protestors will probably get wet too.

    • Chris T 15.2
      12 February 2022 at 12:19 pm

      Doubt it will make them go away.

      They threatened torrential rain since yesterday and have had piss all really here in Johnsonville.

      They can tend to over gild the lily weather wise with Wellington.

      Don't get me wrong. It can hammer it down big time here and sound like a thousand people hitting your roof, but just ain't looking likely that bad atm.

      • tsmithfield 15.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 12:31 pm

        This storm is coming from the tropics. So, if it is anything like here in Christchurch, it is wet but quite warm. So, the protesters may be able to tolerate that.

        If anything, it might wash away the faeces and urine they have been excreting.

        If it was similar rain driven by a howling southerly they might not be so keen on staying.

    • Barfly 15.3
      12 February 2022 at 12:26 pm

      Oh I really hope so devil

      • vto 15.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 1:23 pm

        first pounding due in 30.. next and best potentially mega-pounding 3am.. yahoo.!.

        bloody Brian the tamaki messiah will proly claim it haha

  16. joe90 16
    12 February 2022 at 12:07 pm

    For the Deadheads.

    @Lunaxmusic covers Truckin' on the Korean gayageum.

    https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/deadcoversproject

  17. Chris T 17
    12 February 2022 at 12:29 pm

    Don't particularly get into the actual mandate protesters actions.

    Though I must admit I agree with them.

    Personally think it was just a needs must thing at the time, but the govt better actually for once plan a time to turf them.

    I think the one thing I learnt from this whole thing is Mallard is an even bigger prick than I thought. My low opinion of him managed to sink even lower. Which I didn't actually think was possible.

    • tsmithfield 17.1
      12 February 2022 at 12:34 pm

      Yes, I don't agree with the mandate thing either, though I am fully vaxxed myself.

      I think there were other options, such as requiring unvaxxed to take regular RAT tests to keep their jobs, especially in non-essential industries.

      I think the vaccine mandate thing has definitely created a two-tier society that I don't think any of us should be proud of.

      • Chris T 17.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 12:37 pm

        It basically just created a divisional them and us thing.

        I am no Einstein, but to not see it was going to obviously happen is fricken dim imho

  18. Chris T 18
    12 February 2022 at 12:39 pm

    Should probably mentioned I am vaxed as well.

  19. tsmithfield 19
    12 February 2022 at 12:55 pm

    I have nearly finished watching an excellent docu-drama on Netflix: "The Lost Pirate Kingdom". It is really worth a watch.

    I didn't realise up until seeing this how democratic the pirate society was; for instance, sailors sharing an equal division of the plunder and having the right to vote off the captain if they didn't think he was doing a good job.

    And how much they did to disrupt the slave trade and set a lot of slaves free and gave them a comparatively much better life as equals in their society.

    In the light of history, the pirates were probably a lot better than the British elite at the time.

    • Chris T 19.1
      12 February 2022 at 1:04 pm

      I'd actually forgotten about that. Was reading about it years ago and was really interesting.

      She was literally doesn't matter who, get the same booty.

      Didn't know about the slave bit though.

    • Blade 19.2
      12 February 2022 at 1:15 pm

      ''I didn't realise up until seeing this how democratic the pirate society was; for instance, sailors sharing an equal division of the plunder.''

      Please don't tempt me, TS. There's nothing worse than having Weka on my tail with her moderating wand. laugh

    • Blazer 19.3
      12 February 2022 at 1:21 pm

      So this movie is an authentic historical account is it?

      You must have enjoyed 'Pirates of the Caribbean' …you old…swashbuckler.laugh

      • tsmithfield 19.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 1:34 pm

        Hard to know how accurate any account of history is, though they do seem to have quite a few historical experts contributing to this.

        I did watch the "Black Sails" series awhile back which was a blend of history and myth.

    • mac1 19.4
      12 February 2022 at 2:34 pm

      Now here's a pirate for you, far better than the British elite. Grace O'Malley, Grainne Uaile.

      https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/irelands-pirate-queen-twelve-fascinating-facts-about-legendary-grace-omalley-129406

      Being a pirate in conflict with the English invaders and a woman, she didn't get a good historical press for a long time.

      Strong women leaders tend not to…….

    • Subliminal 19.5
      12 February 2022 at 6:30 pm

      It absolutely is the most fascinating history. The best book I have read on the topic is "The Many Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic"

      It begins with the wreck of the Sea-Venture the real life story of the Puritanical rejection of Paradise in the form of the uninhabited island of Bermuda in favour of starvation and death in the new colony forming in Virginia.

      The chapter Hydrarchy: Sailors, Pirates, and the Maritime State :

      The ship thus became both an engine of capitalism in the wake of the bourgeois revolution in England and a setting of resistance, a place to which and in which the ideas and practices of revolutionaries defeated and repressed by Cromwell and then by King Charles escaped, re-formed, circulated, and persisted

    • roy cartland 19.6
      12 February 2022 at 7:23 pm

      Have a look at Black Sails, a series that was on Starz a while back. An excellent drama about the democracy and shenanigans of piracy. Great production value, well acted, a bit fleshy in places, but that tapers off.

  20. swordfish 20
    12 February 2022 at 1:33 pm

    Massive study shows a long-term, substantial rise in risk of cardiovascular disease, including heart attack and stroke, after a SARS-CoV-2 infection.

    Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case (nature.com)

    (Published a few days ago … but presumably a pre-Omicron study)

    • The Unliving 20.1
      12 February 2022 at 2:28 pm

      Scary stuff. Also from that study:

      Researchers found that rates of many conditions, such as heart failure and stroke, were substantially higher in people who had recovered from COVID-19 than in similar people who hadn’t had the disease.

      What’s more, the risk was elevated even for those who were under 65 years of age and lacked risk factors, such as obesity or diabetes.

      Those claiming the effects of COVID are no worse than a bad cold might want to rethink their position on that.

      From the same website: Long-COVID symptoms less likely in vaccinated people, Israeli data say.

      In fact, vaccinated people were no more likely to report [long COVID] symptoms than people who’d never caught SARS-CoV-2.

      Given the study conditions, much of the data for that one could even be pre-Delta. Will be interesting to see what sort of effect Omicron has here.

    • mpledger 20.2
      12 February 2022 at 2:30 pm

      That's pretty hard to argue with … so noone has (so far). An important, high quality piece of evidence.

  21. Corey Humm 21
    12 February 2022 at 2:06 pm

    If the left would like to talk about something other than COVID for a change here's something: Winz hold times are now regularly over two hours with no call back option (I waited 90 minutes on Thursday) take a look at MSDs Facebook pages mentions and comments, it's wide spread.

    If unemployment is at 3% and historically low how come MSD call times are historically high? Could it be someone's playing silly buggers and putting beneficiaries on sickness benefits instead of unemployment and counting an hour of work a week as fully employed to air brush the stats? Of course it is.

    Also Swarbrick is warming on me, I've criticized her a lot in the past but she continues to be the only person I really hear on the left talking left wing economics.

    The greens should make her a co-leader and scrap the cooperation agreement with Labour and scoop up angry labour voters by attacking labour from the left, perhaps saving labour from itself and ensuring a third term and also force labours attention to the economic issues labours people actually face which largely are being ignored as "it's a global phenomenon" yes but all politics is local. Blocking your ears won't help.

    Millennials, gen z, average workers, renters, beneficiaries, pensioners and everyone in between are getting angry and feeling hopeless and like they are going backwards and feel the govt doesn't hear them or worse care.

    Inflation groceries rent it's just too much and much of what we hear from the govt is them ruling things out and then saying we're not ruling anything out then ruling them out again.

    As important as the COVID response is its now starting to feel like the left hides behind it to distract from horrific housing and inequality and inflation.

    If National was in power right now those anti vax mandate protesters wouldn't be on the lawn of parliament because there'd be no room, wed all be protesting the Tories disgusting, irresponsible and inadequate response to housing, living costs and inequality.

    This is going to be one hell of a rough winter for Labour and this coming budget needs to be a damn good one to address inflation, housing, poverty and loving costs in NZ and it needs to be a lot better than the min wage rise (which was a nice start)

    With inflation rising and our cities running out of houses to rent (front page of press today only 670 houses in chch are available to rent, all the new builds sit empty) this could well be labours own winter of discontent.

    Hopefully Labour acts, if they don't hopefully the greens push them. This winter could be when the tides turn and I for one am terrified of a nat govt that unlike Key has to rely on act votes. It will be Ruth Richardson economics all over again.

    Pull finger labour.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-greens-chloe-swarbrick-calls-for-economic-response-inquiry/CXBYI2E2IO6K2EZWA2HY56XMEM/

  22. tsmithfield 22
    12 February 2022 at 2:24 pm

    Here is a question:

    Is there a point where the rate of infection doesn't matter anymore and getting through it as fast as possible becomes more important?

    Obviously it is far better for the health system etc to remain in a state where it is able to cope with the infections without a problem.

    But perhaps it could reach a tipping point where "letting it rip" as fast as possible becomes a better scenario.

    For instance, if the health system is overwhelmed by 5000 people, it probably wouldn't make any difference if it were overwhelmed by 10000 people. But, at least with 10000 people it probably means the virus is moving a lot faster hence we get through it quicker and return to normality faster. But at say 5000 people it might mean the health system stays overwhelmed for longer hence could lead to worse outcomes overall.

    • weka 22.1
      12 February 2022 at 2:35 pm

      Is there a point where the rate of infection doesn't matter anymore and getting through it as fast as possible becomes more important?

      No. You're doing a lot of reading and thinking. I'd suggest adding long covid to that. Read what doctors are saying including the specialists eg heart, brain or kidney doctors. Read the research reports and people talking about the broader implications eg on workforce.

      Long covid isn't the only factor in this, but its the one being consistently missed in people's analysis.

      Btw, what do you think the normal is that we would return to if we let omicron move through unrestricted at some point?

    • McFlock 22.2
      12 February 2022 at 2:50 pm

      For instance, if the health system is overwhelmed by 5000 people, it probably wouldn't make any difference if it were overwhelmed by 10000 people.

      Yeah it does. Overexhaustion of a system isn't a binary state, it gets progressively worse.

      Triage deprioritises patients less likely to survive. The worse the overwhelming, the higher that line goes in the "who gets the oxygen" game.

      Then there's the gap between "treating everyone" and "locking the doors, turning people away": fewer people providing more palliative care and services like bathing. Infected bed sores, DVT, malnourishment. Scutari all over again, despite best efforts. Or send 'em home to unprepared and possibly ill relatives/flatties to do their best?

      Then there's trying to source tents, freezer containers, etc when industry is moderately affected vs trying to source them when the factories are shut and the trucks aren't moving.

      Case studies of overwhelmed systems have massive differences in severity according to how much they're overwhelmed. It starts with the postponing of scheduled surgeries. It ends… pretty bad.

      And that's just the short term situation, let alone long covid (which is almost beginning to look, if one squints, like rheumatic fever/heart disease – but I ain't a clinician).

    • Barfly 22.3
      12 February 2022 at 2:56 pm

      I think your suggestion would lead to a far higher death toll but

      " we get through it quicker and return to normality "

      Different set of values to mine I guess.

      • tsmithfield 22.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 2:58 pm

        Not a suggestion. A genuine question.

        • weka 22.3.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 3:20 pm

          I'm still not sure what you mean by normality. Are you thinking that the first big wave of omicron would pass through and then we'd return to a pre-2020 state?

          • tsmithfield 22.3.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 4:09 pm

            To a state where the community is either vaccinated or has some natural immunity against future infection hence can start to drop the emergency measures we have now.

            I think it will be a long time before we get back to a pre-2020 state.

            • weka 22.3.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 4:14 pm

              ok, thanks. I'm not sure I've understood your position in that case.

              Afaik there is no evidence yet that omicron will prompt natural immunity across the population.

              There does seem to be some evidence that vaccine and exposure helps, but that has to be weighed up against the LC data, which we don't have yet for omicron.

              Or we get a much more effective vaccine. I have no idea how likely that is given most countries are engaged in responses that promote new variants.

              • tsmithfield …
                12 February 2022 at 5:33 pm

                I think full normality won't return for awhile for a number of reasons.

                Probably one of the big ones is that travel insurance companies will have to feel confident that the can cover Covid in their policies. Until then it is going to be very dodgy to travel overseas.

                Once we have a vaccine similar to the flu vaccine that is updated every year, we will probably be back to full normality. It wouldn't surprise me if it becomes an all-in-one jab. So, both for Covid and the general flu.

            • Subliminal 22.3.1.1.1.2
              12 February 2022 at 6:44 pm

              From Naked Capitalism:

              The UK's covid infection statistics began to add reinfection data. Since the omicron wave, the reinfection rate has increased from less than 1% in the past to 10% of the total number of infections.

        • Barfly 22.3.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 4:42 pm

          McFlock explains why it is a bad idea very well. I don't /didn't have the energy to expand on why it is.

          Thankyou McFlock

        • Patricia Bremner 22.3.1.3
          12 February 2022 at 8:22 pm

          Do you mean BAU / normal?

  23. observer 23
    12 February 2022 at 2:53 pm

    A reminder of how a protest can work:

    2004: Foreshore & Seabed Hikoi (huge, peaceful, and able to build broad support). Maori Party formed.

    2005: Maori Party win seats, enter Parliament.

    2008: Maori Party gain Ministerial portfolios. John Key's government scrap F&S Act.

    Now, it's certainly debatable whether TPM subsequently got as much as they could have, from 2008-17. But that's not the issue here.

    The point is, they successfully moved from protest to lawmaking.

    If the protesters at Parliament are correct and they do have widespread public support (specifically on the mandates) then it should not be too hard to get 5% of the vote.

    If they really feel that freedom is under threat, and a fundamental principle is at stake, just as the F & S protesters did, then they should organise and test their support at the ballot box. They already know that no party in Parliament is going to take up their cause, so like Turia and Labour, there is no point working within a party that totally rejects (even despises) them.

    The risk, of course, is that when you stand for election, there's a rude awakening. Unlike an online echo chamber, you find out how many supporters you really have.

    But with all their alleged "support from ordinary Kiwis", that's a risk worth taking, isn't it?

    • McFlock 23.1
      12 February 2022 at 3:03 pm

      I reckon that's why Winston is courting them on twitter. It might be enough to get him back into parliament – especially up Northland way.

      The larger parties arre trying to avoid any connection to them (despite the occasional useless MP) because they could lose 10% to gain that 3-5% or whatever. If you have voters to lose, the extreme fringe is more costly than it's worth.

      But if you have very few voters and not a huge amount of principles against that fringe… why not make that gamble?

      • observer 23.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 3:09 pm

        Winston's problem here is that the traditional NZF member (if any remain) thinks protesters in general should be in chain gangs.

      • solkta 23.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 3:11 pm

        It is a gamble though as many of these nutters will be in the "oh no i don't vote, it only encourages them" crowd.

        But yes Winston does have nothing to lose.

      • Graeme 23.1.3
        12 February 2022 at 7:50 pm

        So, sort of like how Jamie Lee Ross shacked up with Advance NZ.

        My take on the convoy and protest is that it's out of the same swamp that spawned Advance NZ, and attracting the same supporters.

    • solkta 23.2
      12 February 2022 at 3:03 pm

      The Maori Party entered Parliament in 2004 when Tariana Turia won the Te Tai Hauauru by-election after having resigned as a Minister and MP.

    • logie97 23.3
      12 February 2022 at 5:40 pm

      Observer, excuse my ignorance but can you tell me the understanding of both parties to the state of the ownership of the Foreshore and Seabed. I do remember Peter Dunne and Nick Smith knee deep in water in Nelson somewhere demanding that the crown do not cede control of the f/s. (Then there was the Iwi/Kiwi campaign from Orewa. It forced the Labour government to act.) The Maori party formed. They eventually got an accommodation with the National/ACT coalition. And you say the F/S act was repealed, so what were the gains for Tangata Whenua out of all of it. Just a repeal of the act. Thus where do the two partners to the Treaty stand on this now. Muddied waters?

      • observer 23.3.1
        12 February 2022 at 11:27 pm

        From the outside, I'd say the gains were less than they should have been, Sharples and Turia did not rock the boat enough. But that's for the Maori Party voters to decide, not me (they rejected the party in 2017, but of course they are back now).

    • observer 23.4
      12 February 2022 at 11:41 pm

      So … no responses from any commenters here who support the protesters, or at least want to present them in a positive light.

      There is no long-term plan at all, is there? The government won't change its position (you must have worked that out by now) and you're not willing to try and change the government (by standing at the election).

      That's what protests set out to do: change the current policy, or replace the policy-makers. Politicians change their policies because they want votes (it beggars belief that this has to be explained to you, but you do seem to live in an alternative reality).

      Groundswell have a clear goal: Labour out, National in (not explicit, but obvious). On the other side, so do climate change protesters: pressure on Labour and the Greens, based on polls which show widespread support for stronger action on climate change.

      I ask again: if this matters so much, what is the end-game? Having a party in the rain?

  24. Reality 24
    12 February 2022 at 2:59 pm

    So fed up with people here sympathising with the selfish, rude, loud, trouble making, obnoxious protesters. The protesters have zero concern for anyone else's rights, (but go on endlessly about their rights) or other people's ability to go about their daily life without hindrance. They are causing major damage to parliamentary property, but could not care less. If a bedraggled bunch of lawbreakers damaged their property or belongings they would be the first to squeal and loudly. They are breaking numerous laws and local body laws by parking anywhere, everywhere from footpaths to blocking access ways. And don't give a damn.

    Their lack of reasoning and common sense and being so easily manipulated is a sad burden on the rest of society. They don't deserve to be treated by medical staff when/if they get Covid. But those same medical people will have to look after these and turn a blind eye to their idiocy.

    • logie97 24.1
      12 February 2022 at 4:26 pm

      … and the small crowd being entertained by the "bike-burn-out" producing toxic fumes for them to inhale (one of them with cigarette in hand). I wonder if she was there protesting "they ain't gonna put no dangerous poisons into my body, No Way!"

      • Rosemary McDonald 24.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 5:49 pm

        and the small crowd….

        And the other 19,990( or however many) were not being entertained by Brian's Burnout Boyz.

        • logie97 24.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 6:17 pm

          Rosemary, did you actually read the comment? I do not see the relevance of your comment.

          • Rosemary McDonald 24.1.1.1.1
            12 February 2022 at 7:08 pm

            I did read your comment, and Reality's. My point is that it is so easy, and wrong, to focus on a small group enjoying arseholish behaviour whilst ignoring the the vast majority being respectful and polite.

            Now, I guess you're enjoying Mallard's latest stunt?

            True leader that man.

            • Anne 24.1.1.1.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 7:23 pm

              Stop trying to bullshit us. We've all watched the live footage. Every time someone performs an arsehole act the rest of the crowd cheers and claps. As for Mallard's latest stunt… at least he's trying to do something. The police are just pussy footing around as far as I can see.

              Maybe Dovi can send them packing overnight.

              • Rosemary McDonald …
                12 February 2022 at 7:48 pm

                Godalmighty Anne…you'd have the cops drive them out boots and all after what went down on Tuesday? Where's the kindness? Nevermind the optics.

                Bring your knitting.

                Catch up Anne…the rest of the world is moving on. Do the decent thing and stop making it all about the elderly and vulnerable. You've had your shots, you wear the mask du jour….settle down and let the young folk get on with their lives.

            • weka 24.1.1.1.1.2
              12 February 2022 at 7:39 pm

              I agree. It doesn't help anyone to represent the protestors as all misbehaving or arseholes.

              • Anne …
                12 February 2022 at 8:39 pm

                I did not represent them all as misbehaving or arseholes. I made the observation that a majority – in some instances – have applauded the misbehaviour. Eg. the jeering and insults directed at the constables on duty. Its certain some of them will have disapprpoved in which case I hope they have removed themselves from the scene.

            • logie97 24.1.1.1.1.3
              12 February 2022 at 8:19 pm

              How can you possible draw from my comment that I endorse Mallard's buffoonish behaviour – where he is giving the protest oxygen. He is a fool.

              However, it is equally a bit strong for you to suggest that everyone at that demonstration is honourable and peaceful and informed about the vaccines.

      • aj 24.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 7:23 pm

        I think there is a penalty of instant loss of DL for wheel spinning (loss of traction) on public roads.

        If there is, why is it not being applied.

  25. joe90 25
    12 February 2022 at 3:16 pm

    Musk and his fanboys deserve neuro-linking to their fucking cars.

    Neuralink’s brain chips — which Musk claims will one day make humans hyper-intelligent and let paralyzed people walk again — were implanted in monkeys’ brains during a series of tests at the University of California, Davis from 2017 to 2020, according to a compliant from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine filed with the the US Department of Agriculture on Thursday.

    In one example, a monkey was allegedly found missing some of its fingers and toes “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma.” The monkey was later killed during a “terminal procedure,” the group said in a copy of the complaint shared with The Post.

    In another case, a monkey had holes drilled in its skull and electrodes implanted into its brain, then allegedly developed a bloody skin infection and had to be euthanized, according to the complaint.

    […]

    “Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” Jeremy Beckham, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine’s research advocacy director, told The Post. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.”

    The macabre report comes as Neuralink plans to begin its first human tests. Musk said in December that he wants to start human trials for the devices in 2022 and the company posted a job listing for a clinical trial director this January.

    https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly-subjected-monkeys-to-extreme-suffering/

  27. joe90 27
    12 February 2022 at 4:55 pm

    Lotsa people going to find out just how effective their immune system is.

    • Blade 27.1
      12 February 2022 at 5:08 pm

      Yes, that crowd better be up to date with their Vit D, Vit C (lypo-spheric form), Zinc and Colloidal Sliver. And maybe have their fingers crossed.

      I thought the rain would thin the protesters out. It hasn't happened. That means the governments immune system is about to be tested.

      • joe90 27.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 5:13 pm

        Gonna be a long night

        .

        • Blade 27.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 5:20 pm

          Crikey, that's some heavy precipitation. The wind is getting up, too. The only thing making it bearable is the temperature. That may change with the chill factor?

      • Shanreagh 27.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 10:06 pm

        Yes, that crowd better be up to date with their Vit D, Vit C (lypo-spheric form), Zinc and Colloidal Sliver. And maybe have their fingers crossed.

        Also Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are two other placebos they should have on hand.

        If this were the States from whence most of the anti vaxx dis- & mis-information is coming from on social media, it is useful to have an army of people sending prayers covering all medical procedures once these occur. Of course, not just any prayers are useful, only those to an evangelical & possibly TV based preacher to God with $$$$ lubrication are really useful.

        The rain is bucketing down here. Very heavy. I really hope the leadership is sensible. Nothing is worth being sick from exposure from.

        • Robert Guyton 27.1.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:14 pm

          A kind Government would ensure all protesters were warm and dry, or dried-off and warmed-up, to show they care for us all.

          I expect this will happen tomorrow.

          Protesters refusing assistance will look ridiculous, in the eyes of the general public.

          Trevor Mallard will/could order such assistance to be provided.

          The public will love him for it 🙂

        • Blade 27.1.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 10:35 pm

          I was being a little facetious.

          But having researched and used everything under the sun for the last thirty years out of necessity, I have a fair idea what works, and what doe not.

          Let's start with Vitamin C.

        • Blade 27.1.2.3
          12 February 2022 at 10:37 pm

          .
          Double posted.

  28. weka 28
    12 February 2022 at 5:22 pm

    Anyone seen an explanation (from police or someone who knows what they are talking about) as to why the police haven't stopped people coming into the camp, or bringing in supplies like tents? Yes, it's going to rain heavily and get colder overnight, but those that tough it out will hold the place and then others can come back tomorrow with supplies and numbers.

    • Grey Area 28.1
      12 February 2022 at 5:43 pm

      Pretty much what I asked yesterday morning.

      .https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-02-2022/#comment-1860749

      God, I sound like Blade. surprise

      I've seen no explanation for why they haven't secured the site and have continued to allow people to come and go and bring more stuff in. Puzzling.

      They seem keen to forestall a Feb 6 clone but apart from that yeah, nah.

      • Blade 28.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 5:47 pm

        Please try and be original. I don't want YOU sounding like me.no

      • Grey Area 28.1.2
        12 February 2022 at 5:49 pm

        They've bolstered the barriers on the forecourt and to the side of Parliament because apparently protesters were coming on site behind them from Hill Street, but apart from that, seems she's wide open.

        • weka 28.1.2.1
          12 February 2022 at 6:51 pm

          if I put the covid risk to the community aside, this is actually good. They're letting the protest happen and they're doing what they need to to protect parliament itself.

        • ianmac 28.1.2.2
          12 February 2022 at 6:57 pm

          A protester casually walked alongside the orange barriers, flicked out the joining peg and picked up the whole block easily just off the ground and wandered on to the next one.

          I thought those orange blocks were very heavy but they are no way to stop anyone.

      • mpledger 28.1.3
        12 February 2022 at 6:23 pm

        The fences aren't very high. It's always been an open site where Wgtns could go and have lunch on a sunny day as well. There's a playground for the kids. Unfortunately all I think this is going to do is make it become a fortress because this crap can't happen again.

        • Stuart Munro 28.1.3.1
          12 February 2022 at 7:13 pm

          The glacial approach to sending them packing has aided their cause immeasurably. The govt. is basically letting a Tea Party build itself on its front lawn.

    • joe90 28.2
      12 February 2022 at 5:47 pm

      I reckon they're allowing them to fill the space.

      Kettling (also known as containment or corralling)[1] is a police tactic for controlling large crowds during demonstrations or protests. It involves the formation of large cordons of police officers who then move to contain a crowd within a limited area. Protesters either leave through an exit controlled by the police, leave through an uncontrolled gap in the cordons, or are contained, prevented from leaving, and arrested.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling

      • Grey Area 28.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 5:53 pm

        But they're not containing them that's the point. They are protecting Parliament buildings but the frontages to Molesworth Street and I guess Lambton Quay do not seem to have any police presence. From the live feed people are coming and going as they please.

        The police never put all their cards on the table and nor would I expect them to but considering the situation has any news media asked them why they have not contained the protest site?

        • weka 28.2.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 6:52 pm

          only thing I've seen is a brief mention that the police aren't just letting the protest runs it course, or some such. I haven't been following comprehensively though. Prob on Stuff or RNZ.

        • weka 28.2.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 7:27 pm

          This just up on Stuff.

          Wellington Mayor Andy Foster said there were a “significant number” of people who had joined the protest in the past day, but it was unclear whether they would stay.

          “There's been quite a number of people contacting me saying, 'Oh, just move them'. I don't think they have contemplated for a moment how many vehicles there are, and how challenging that might be, and also what the protesters might do to frustrate that.”

          So they can't get the paddy wagons in?

  29. Gypsy 29
    12 February 2022 at 5:51 pm

    You'd have to ask them. But this statement is interesting:

    "New Zealand’s other major RAT supplier, Roche, has also said it told customers the Government had requested its orders be prioritised, although a formal prioritisation request was never made."

    I'm not sure about Roche, but one thing we do know is this; this government is anything but open and transparent.

  30. Belladonna 30
    12 February 2022 at 7:19 pm

    Just picked this up off the newsfeeds – a volunteer firefighter at Winton has tested positive for Covid, and the whole fire dept is shut down and in self-isolation.

    https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-surge-southland-firefighter-tests-positive-putting-fire-trucks-out-of-service/4UVOZWSOP7YCGLENGZZJ55M5GY/?c_id=1&objectid=12504318&ref=rss

    How sustainable is this kind of isolation for emergency workers going to be? ATM the nearest fire response would be Invercargill – about 30mins away (and a good deal longer if the call was out of Winton to the north).

    There's the real potential for lives to be lost.
    This is the kind of situation where I believe RATs need to be deployed, rather than quarantining people who turn out not to have Covid.

  31. Muttonbird 31
    12 February 2022 at 8:18 pm

    Is cyclone Dovi an act of God? Couldn't hit the anti-vaxxers more square if it tried.

    1:00am tomorrow morning…

  32. PsyclingLeft.always 32
    12 February 2022 at 8:55 pm

    The Parliament anti…..vaxxer (well they are a mixed nut selection ) protestors are dumbfounded/dumbasses, double bunked with some TRULY dangerous people.

    "Only the crumbliest, flakiest"…… no chocolate at all !

    • greywarshark 32.1
      12 February 2022 at 11:22 pm

      Is chocolate the secret weapon? Perhaps that would be a way for needle-shy people to take vaccinations? Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine god down dah dah.

  33. DS 33
    12 February 2022 at 9:18 pm

    Trevor Mallard's escalation is profoundly stupid, of course. Best to completely ignore the muppets, even if they're there for weeks.

    (I do actually suspect a majority of New Zealand would secretly like to channel their inner Muldoon here, but the key is not to turn the muppets into martyrs).

    • Shanreagh 33.1
      12 February 2022 at 10:47 pm

      Fine line here though… leaving them here for ages holding up transport links, teasing mask wearing students and being unpleasant and arguing the toss about mask wearing at the local supermarket are likely to arouse the inner Muldoon as you say rather than support.

      His escalation may be silly but then many would think the actions by the protestors have set the tone. Getting through this to negotiate when the leaders may have different agendas may be difficult.

  34. Chris T 34
    12 February 2022 at 9:52 pm

    Woah. Deludge has hit

    Have fun in your tents protesters. Lol

  35. Cricklewood 35
    12 February 2022 at 10:06 pm

    Someone needs to send Mallard home and tell him to stfu. According to Stuff hes just said that the protest is run by neo nazis… he's making it infinitely worse…

    • Chris T 35.1
      12 February 2022 at 10:14 pm

      TBF it is quite funny watching him dig himself his own political career grave given how much people on here stuck up for him with his biased performances as Speaker and Ardern human shield at question times. Lol

      • weka 35.1.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:17 pm

        I quite like him because of the baby in the house thing, but what he's doing this weekend is incredibly stupid.

        • Robert Guyton 35.1.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 10:20 pm

          I guess the water-restrictions for Wellington will be lifted…

        • Cricklewood 35.1.1.2
          12 February 2022 at 10:30 pm

          I reckon I can balance that out…

          How bout the time he as Race Relations minister accused Tariana Turia of encouraging Maori youth to get pregnant as a part of master plan to take over New Zealand.

          Here's the link with quotes from Trevor.https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/turia-says-two-child-families-not-maori-way/R7PJOQBYUEFKOXHT7UALX466JI/

          • weka 35.1.1.2.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:35 pm

            good lord, how did he get to be RR Minister?

            • Cricklewood 35.1.1.2.1.1
              12 February 2022 at 10:43 pm

              Basically hes a hot headed bully when things dont go his way. Absolutely the wrong person to be pulling the strings in a situation like this. He's a disgrace.

              • weka …
                12 February 2022 at 10:50 pm

                I'm kind of stunned he's allowed to, but in this role does Labour or the caucus not have any say on what he does?

                • Chris T …
                  12 February 2022 at 11:11 pm

                  I don't think they do actually. Part of the speakers role is security of all the buildings and grounds, and he was picked by Labour.

                  Can't help thinking it will come back and bite Ardern in the arse though, given it is pretty much exactly one year since Labour over-turned the Nats forced vote on non-confidence of his performance.

                  Interesting to watch though.

                  If you like watching train wrecks.

                  Edit:Sorry. Should have been clearer. Think it would take a vote of no confidence.

                  And ATM the Nats won’t do it as they are probably laughing their arses off. Ardern is in a seriously difficult position of turning the last one on him down, while also if she did it, it would mean basically saying she made a massive mistake publicly, which the Nats would pounce on.

                  She is kind of in a lose lose position from what I can see.

                • Chris T …
                  12 February 2022 at 11:18 pm

                  I think whoever the people were who decided to vote no to the no confidence vote of Mallard last year might be looking for new jobs on Monday

        • Chris T 35.1.1.3
          12 February 2022 at 10:34 pm

          I find it a bit weird actually given how much parties on all sides pay for PR to giude them on what is a "good look" and a "bad" media wise.

          Must have just gone rogue I reckon.

          • Cricklewood 35.1.1.3.1
            12 February 2022 at 10:52 pm

            That's the conclusion I came to, he's basically writing a how not to deal with protests guide in real time.

    • Shanreagh 35.2
      12 February 2022 at 10:33 pm

      He may not be wrong but whether he was wise to have mentioned it ??????

      All sorts of protests are used by 'bad actors' to further their own aims that may not be the same as the original protestors.

      Well what do you call Counterspin? It is pretty hardline.

      From David Farrier writes about Counterspin Media.

      https://www.webworm.co/p/fakenews2

      Counterspin has been providing the commentary to these on the ground for a couple of days now. The more moderate (ha ha relatively) original organisers faded out very soon after they arrived in Wellington. These happenings have been well publicised in the last couple of days.

      Phillip Arps, Kelvyn Alp and Brett Power are/will be/have been involved.

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127744103/this-ragtag-of-disaffection-highlights-the-shattering-of-a-once-united-population

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hijacked-the-inside-story-of-how-nzs-convoy-lost-its-rudder

      Info on the scary face of this protest and his unsuccessful case is here

      https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127744100/high-court-dismisses-vaccine-protesters-allegations-against-health-minister

      Action Zelandia took photographs showing the back of Parliament after one of its members who was also an employee of LT McGuiness climbed a work crane. Now no longer employed. Security had to be rejigged for MPs after this was found.

      https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/security-changed-at-parliaments-bowen-house-after-action-zealandia-posts-video/OP2D4U3ETENXLUN22UNOIII7CY/

      PS I don’t think the Parliament sprinkler /garden stuff is covered by Wellington City’s water restrictions. I complained about four large sprinklers going at a field at a college last summer when we were heading to be chronically short of water and was told that water restrictions don’t apply to most govt entities. Most try to abide but may not be subject to specific times and days which is also the case with WCC itself.

      WCC is not always the quickest one to abide by the restrictions it sets for others. Fair enough for specialist things like the botanical gardens, Zoo.

      • Cricklewood 35.2.1
        12 February 2022 at 10:46 pm

        Yes there are undesirable elements involved but also many who are ordinary Kiwis. What's happening at the moment is just entrenching positions. If Mallard continues as he is I'm gonna drive down and join in…

        • Shanreagh 35.2.1.1
          12 February 2022 at 11:29 pm

          The myth of the ordinary Kiwi. They don't exist. NZers may have certain characteristics that set apart us as a nation from others but mythmaking about 'ordinary kiwis' does not help.

          The people are not like you, me or the people next door….they have deliberately chosen an anti health way forward. They have put 'me' before 'us'.

          Sure mandates will end just as border restrictions will end. We have a timeline for the borders. Perhaps we need to say the mandates will be lifted in October unless we can lift them earlier.

          But really until we see the measure of Omicron we are flying blind. But the protestors have been tone deaf to think that at the time when NZ is facing a huge huge challenge from Omicron (that has not reached us yet) that this was the time to give away all health measures…..the height of stupidity.

          Sure we may have to negotiate to get them to go but please don't fool ourselves by thinking they are the mythical ordinary Kiwis. This is what they will be hoping – that we will be fooled by our yearning to go forward together. But we can't and it will be a stultifying NZ we live in if we do.

          I hope negotiations are done in a businesslike health focussed way. They are most unordinary Kiwis from a health point of view.

          So I am saying that while the protest may have the bad actors I have mentioned plus others such as Destiny, Sue Grey and Liz Gunn the remainder are not the mythic 'ordinary Kiwis'.

          Mallard may be doing this and he is probably unwise (to us) in the scheme of things, but possibly he, like many of the other parliamentarians, believes that they are actually not the mythical ordinary kiwis and negotiations should not proceed as if they are.

          • Grey Area 35.2.1.1.1
            13 February 2022 at 4:56 am

            "The people are not like you, me or the people next door….they have deliberately chosen an anti health way forward. They have put 'me' before 'us'."

            Exactly Shanreagh.

            Someone yesterday rolled out the "They are us" line.

            I thought, no they're not.

    • greywarshark 35.3
      12 February 2022 at 11:28 pm

      Be kind to old men and all oldies should do a memory test every six months, I wonder if he can bring on hypertension just thinking about protesters and empty cans lying on the lawn. He is probably just waiting for a space in some flash retirement home with pools, bells and whistles. Nice for those who like that sort of thing. Or maybe he is a horse lover and has graduated up to unicorns. Do they have those yet at these flash super retirement villages where the young might stick their nose up to a gate or window pane if they can.

  36. Chris T 36
    12 February 2022 at 10:39 pm

    Far out. This will clear a few 20 dollar Warehouse tents! Lol

  37. mosa 37
    12 February 2022 at 11:20 pm

    Sprinklers how very New Zealand lol.

    Water cannons would be more effective.

  38. Shanreagh 38
    13 February 2022 at 1:03 am

    From the Guardian 11/2/22

    The Global 'Freedom' Movement is a carnival of crank and conspiracy – and very dangerous and counts NZ in the countries where

    "“Freedom” protests similar in form and simultaneously nebulous in broadly anti-vax/anti-mandate political goals have materialised in Britain, France and New Zealand."

    The inability to work out what these similar groups are really on about is deliberate and world wide. When aims are so opaque we must wonder. Why?

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/12/the-global-freedom-movement-is-a-carnival-of-crank-and-conspiracy-and-very-dangerous

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