Given the timing, there was a huge amount happening, this was a minor mis-communication compared with sorting out vaccines (were they approved at that stage? – we do know that Aus and NZ had difficulty ordering because of our low death rates) and maintaining confidence that all that could be done was being done. For what it is worth I think they did the right thing in burying such a minor issue at that time.
I've not been fearful of COVID-19 infection since being double vaxxed – getting a booster for extra protection against Omicron was a plus. So grateful for the public health measures designed to protect all Kiwis during this pandemic.
It’s difficult to have much sympathy for the remaining 'protesters', once you see the lengths they’ll go to to get what they want. Analogies everywhere.
Extremism ‘Splintered realities’: How NZ convoy lost its way [12 February 2022] Days of protesters' chats reveal the inside story of how New Zealand's convoy was hijacked by the far-right fringe, Marc Daalder reports
"This is hitting, hard, social cohesion right now. It's a very sophisticated playbook. It is not original because it has been played out in developing countries like mine and also on both sides of the Atlantic, but here, it's playing out right now."
Hattotuwa compared the protest to a terror attack, not because of the physical impact on people but because of the social and political impact on New Zealand as a whole. He said the Government's social cohesion work programme, still under development in the aftermath of the March 15 mosque shootings, would be needed for this type of situation. The more social cohesion frays, the harder it is to rein in violent extremism – a lesson he learned from his home country of Sri Lanka.
"That is what keeps me up at night, because you're talking to a person who comes from a very different context. I come from the end point of where this leads. When you come from the end point of a journey, you realise the markers of how you got there," Hattotuwa said.
"What I'm seeing right now – of course it's not destiny – but what you're seeing is the inexorable traversing of a journey that will take you to not a good place. That is the problem. That is what worries me. It's not prophecy, but it is prescience because of the experience that we have been through elsewhere."
But here's the kicker…the ministry (and I'm pointing the finger right at Hipkins here) had to be told by the Ombudsman to fess up:
"This week, nearly a year after that pen made its decisive stroke across a ministry whiteboard, Stuff received a spreadsheet – the retroactively-created data set. It shows, when compared to the data Stuff was able to reconstruct, that the graph was incorrect by millions of doses. This error was never officially corrected."
Not quite sure what you did there, but I fixed it. Generally you can add width="100%" inside the end of the tag closing, but for some reason that didn't work.
I grabbed the image off the first Stuff link, please let me know if it's the right one or not.
Yeah I did. It'd obviously been clipped, and teh comment did
It is easiest when you have something that is large to just set the width to 100% or 550px. Then add a link to the original. You can do all of this in the image dialog for the comments. Just comment to click to see the full thing.
Then if people want to see the whole thing they can just click it. Adding an original page link helps a lot too. So does actually saying what you're talking about. Like 'look at feburary and march' the first dose (hatched) was administered first and the second dose was doing catchup.
If your interpretation is correct, the second dose overtakes the cross hatch, or first dose. A physical impossibility, surely?
The criticism of the error, and the lack of transparency, is the main point. For a government agency to take a year to provide supporting data for a graph that bore their own branding, and only then at the intervention of the Ombudsman, is unacceptable.
The rate of second doses can overtake the rate of first doses for awhile if first doses start first. It's like clearing a backlog. Generally, you'd expect the rate of second doses to be greater than the rate of first doses, at the same point in time and until the backlog clears, because early adopters are more likely (and have a higher need) to complete. The early adopters here were the most at risk workers.
Your interpretation of the graph relies on the second dose numbers exceeding those of the first dose over a prolonged period of time. Not just for a few days. And, that that begins to occur relatively soon after the second doses begin. Neither is plausible.
I agree that the graph is not correct (e.g. the y-axis scale is screwed) but it's not nearly as wrong as people make it out to be. And the heading on the graph says "Illustration of volumes and timings of rollout". It's clearly meant as an illustration not as an absolute plan.
"but it's not nearly as wrong as people make it out to be."
I disagree, but that wasn't my original point. Why couldn't the Ministry have corrected any errors or misconceptions about the graph and accompanying data straight away? And without the journo's having to go to the Ombudsman? This is the same playbook Auckland Council seem to be working from.
Only as an indication of how utterly worthless National is – everything they do is trivial, often malicious, and generally corrupt. How they dare to pretend to be part of a modern democracy is hard to fathom – they have no policy to speak of, no understanding of economics (they passed off real estate inflation as growth for the last three decades for chrissakes!)
You might want to consider how important it is to exhume trivial errors early in the Covid response, instead of developing a cogent and comprehensive manifesto of policies that would actually improve NZ. Too hard? Everything is for National, and that's why they're unfit to be in Parliament, much less to govern.
imo, no, I would be more concerned about the countless deaths and an overwhelmed health system. Fortunately National is not in power and NZ, not only has a highly vaccinated population, it also has one of the lowest Covid19 related deaths in the OECD. Would have thought that mattered more than a illustration of a year ago.
not now Jester no. I would look back on it as use it as an example of the muddled thinking and lack of a covid plan from National. But there are more examples I could use.
As for the graph itself, it makes no sense to me so looks a bit muddled. If that was the pinnacle of the governments vaccine plan we would be living in a disaster. thankfully one nonsensical graph has little correlation to how thr vaccine roll out has progressed and turned out. The vaccine roll out has not been perfect and has had some mistakes but over all pretty successful.
It exposes this government as having no integrity; no interest in telling the truth (btw I imagine Hipkins presented the so called graph from the 'podium of truth' – what devastating irony), and willing to manipulate the public to its own ends.
Exposure of this pathetic piece of propaganda gives us all a clear insight into the moral bankruptcy of Hipkins and the rest of the government.
you could tell when Key was lying during a live interview. The kiwirail and the Lord Ashcroft interviews his body language showed he was being shifty and evasive and had things he wanted to hide. that shifty look in his eyes.
Yes that statement appears to contradict what they said they are telling customers. Some of those customers are now leaking to the Herald, so this will be fun.
Yet NZ, not only has a highly vaccinated population, it also has one of the lowest Covid19 related deaths in the OECD. Would have thought that mattered more than a illustration of a year ago.
It's not just about the illustration. It's about deliberate obfuscation, and whether or not we are prepared to accept it. There is a growing body of evidence that government is taking the piss.
The facts stated previously would suggest otherwise, the graph is illustrative based on "expected delivery and uptake" targets were met were they not? even exceeded.
But the article itself is even wrong.. it claims that the graph put out by MoH in 21 “clearly showed 2nd doses starting before the 1st”, this is not the case at all! pic.twitter.com/M1ZKSkvr4S
You obviously missed my post above….so to repeat…please explain how the number of people receiving a second jab can exceed the number receiving their first jab over a prolonged period.
"The facts stated previously would suggest otherwise"
What ‘facts’? Let me lay out for you the level of evasion the Ministry has gone to to hide this:
"I mentioned the facts that rendered a year old illustration irrelevant. "
There are no facts that make it 'irrelevant'. The graph is flawed, the data was flaky, and the Ministry spent a year trying to hide it.
shoot Grantoc, if you believe that amounts to "moral bankruptcy of Hipkins and the rest of the government", you must need to wash your eyes in bleach if you cast your gaze to the opposition sitting across the house
In the months we were waiting for the ministry to give up its fight to keep its numbers from the public, we did our own analysis of that hand-drawn line. By measuring pixels in the image and interpolating the values, we were able to see that it suggested there would be about 2.7 million more second doses given than first doses. Even with the naked eye, it was clear the chart had second doses starting before any first doses.
These don’t seem like the kinds of errors you would associate with a planning process that had been “worked through very carefully”, as Hipkins had claimed.
Now that's incompetence. And it can't be blamed on any protesters. 🙂
Now if we had a statesman, or stateswoman, leading this country, they would have no hesitation in fronting the public and sincerely apologising. Alas, this Government doesn’t have such a person.
Nothing like a pandemic to reveal the absolute crazy underbelly of NZ.
The former broadcaster Liz Gunn gave a speech in which she called for “aroha” – “we will win with love over evil,” she said. She was standing next to John Ansell, the former ad-man, who was holding a sign comparing Jacinda Ardern to the terrorist who perpetrated 51 murders at two Christchurch mosques.
It is an uncomfortable, and confounding, thing to watch; calls for peace, next to a blown up image of a terrorist.
John Ansell did the Kiwi/Iwi campaign for Don Brash. Water finds its level.
In the old days, reporters would simply report the news. Now they've inserted themselves into the news and are actively creating it. At the same time, the quality of news reporting has declined. Opinions aren't news.
Charlie Mitchel is an excellent journalist. Superb research (he watched hour of the crazies' TV channel) and largely well structured writing.
How to interview a crowd of idiots without inserting yourself? He went in there despite threats against him and his colleagues. Have a think about that for a moment.
I've been on the frontline of protest and I've been watching this one closely before commenting, but here's my 2 cents worth.
The single biggest mistake the government and other critics of the protestors have made is to dismiss them. Yes this protest has attracted a disparate group of people with a range of grievances. Yes there are the usual assortment of hangers on, and it appears there has been open conflict between different sections of the group. But at it's core, there is an organised group who know exactly what they're doing. A few examples:
1. The way they have had rolling waves of people joining the protest, as the initial crowd have tired and thinned.
2. The use of children on the front line.
3. The protestors have a kitchen, portaloos (which are being emptied regularly) and a medical centre.
4. The placement of the many vehicles around the parliament is strategic.
5. The protestors are in regular contact with the police, and have been told that the police will not 'arrest their way through this'.
6. The protestors are aware towing companies will not tow their vehicles. At least for now.
There is more, but these are signs of a well coordinated campaign, that is designed to last for some time yet.
I am not condoning the protest, I am not saying I agree with the views being expressed. I am simply saying the people who have organised and are coordinating this should not be written off. There are ways to end this peacefully, but it will take considerable skill and tact.
Yep. Considering the protest has been relentlessly mocked for being leaderless and without a clear set of demands they certainly have got shit pretty well organised.
And social media is working for them. The call went out yesterday evening for ponchos….hundreds were delivered. The way those with the skills took care of Mallard's sprinklers. The food and first aid tents. The way that Tamaki's army heeded the call and did not dominate when they turned up. More tents are arriving with those attending for the day. Kiwi as. And not a bureaucrat in sight.
That’s not my understanding, nor is it what is being reported,
They did more than that. They have secured a supply line, and most importantly they are pissing off locals, who will aim their frustration at the government as well as the protestors.
Indeed.
Yes I heard the police claim that. If it’s true, it’s despicable, but effective.
Let me clear, I do not condone any of this, certainly not threats (if indeed that has occurred). But writing these people off is foolish. And petty, vindictive actions like turning sprinklers on the protestors is not the brightest move.
Personally speaking I think the authorities need to back off and let these so called protesters hang themselves (metaphorically).
And,with a lot more quality reporting like this, that exposes the neo-nazi motivations of the main instigators underpinning this protest.
They say they want to talk to the politicians, how about this?
The PM address them directly appealing to their better natures to remain peaceful. In return the government will leave them alone to continue their protest on the condition that it remain peaceful.
These protesters have made it clear that they will not leave their protest camp peaceably.
They have come prepared for war.
The question is: is the government?
The Labour government need to decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in.
Better the government can defang them with negotiation rather than with batons.
Police carrying batons as more protesters arrive at Parliament
11 Feb, 2022 12:31 PM
Anti-mandate protesters are in high spirits, despite being flanked by police holding batons as the Parliament occupation continues into its fourth day…..
Another bad mistake. It has resulted in yet more people coming in. People are witnessing all this police aggression and stand over tactics (albeit a mistake or not) online and are saying f that we're going down/up there.
Plenty of images showing this – baseball bats, fence palings, stones and bottles thrown, motorcycle helmets, etc. Cars turned over and trashed, and a fair amount of random property damage.
Not denying that there was police brutality as well (because there was) – but there was protester violence too, especially as the tour progressed and the protests escalated.
History is never as nice and tidy as we'd like to to be.
As someone who was smashed over the head with a glass jug as I walked into a pub, not knowing it was full of protestors, wearing my club dress jersey I can certainly attest that there were violent protestors.
Bunch of losers that lot were. I was lucky not to be seriously hurt or brain damaged. There were some stupid violent people in amongst those protestors.
"decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in".
Don't you think that this is getting a little hysterical Jenny? I've had another look and they are still campervans I see. They aren't armoured personnel carriers. I am also unable to see any military assault rifles or trench mortars among their belongings. Perhaps their are hand grenades? Nope.
The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?
Paint them however you like, but they are not an ill disciplined mob. I'm no fan, but I marvel at the lengths they are going to and now am starting to enquire why people would prepare to camp at parliament this long in the face of such adversity.
The end of the lawn where the arrests were being made on Thursday is at the northern end of the lawn. The lawn slopes back down from there to the south to the southern gates which come off Lambton Quay. So the site lies north south but slopes to the south. The site has quite a few trees to the South & SE so that would provide a tiny bit of protection. These trees often 'throw down' branches during wind from any direction.
Tonight they are saying to expect SE wind up to gale force. We have a wind and rain warning out for Wellington. .
My home is also NS but is tucked away from Southerlies & to an extent from SW. When we get SE winds which is not often, these winds can be very damaging. I say my garden does not like SE winds. The only time I have lost trees and shrubs it has been during a SE wind, we had some about 6 weeks or so ago that has absolutely cut that side of a pear tree, all leaves gone.
Summary
site lies north south
slope to south
some protection with trees to S but these trees are also prone to throwing branches. Wind will be diffused by trees but esssentially will blow up the site
The site has multiple smooth paths that water will run down.
The site will catch the rain as it faces south
The trenches that have been built seem to be running to the east.
One trench from last night runs south.
Who ever is the leader there, if sensible, needs to weigh up if they have made their point or do they continue and risk putting lives at risk from the cold, wind = exposure.
Not sure what sort of relationship the group has with Ngati Poneke and if they can evacuate to there, nearby Marae. Not sure where they would go if evacuated by Civil Defence, perhaps to a school hall?
I don't have any high expectations that the leaders would see it wise to evacuate the loyal 'foot' soldiers. To continue far from showing how staunch they are, will just cement idiocy as the prevailing theme.
Most true leaders would recognise how important it is for 'troops' to be warm, dry and fed. Leaders who lose their 'troops' from preventable happenings don't tend to stay as leaders very long.
My query is about the ability and role of Civil Defence and perhaps Public Health to intervene but this group (current leadership with Counterspin etc) may probably resist any attempt to help on CD or health grounds.
PS In last 15mins the rain has become very heavy.
PPS the twitter of Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara is the only one, other than official ones I am following.
The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?
Have to say I'm impressed, and am thinking about why this hasn't been done by climate activists. Whatever the politics here, there are important things to be learned.
The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?
Yeah that, and also that lefty commentators have so little understanding of the protest itself is a chuckle too.
We understand the dark forces behind it that are exploiting the inchoate anger and powerlessness over many issues, not just vaccine mandates, and channeling that inchoate anger into dangerous extremist far right directions.
We need to do two things; Not be drawn into a confrontation with the protesters which is what these far right manipulators want.
And two address the growing inequity and powerlessness being experienced by many in our society.
We need to 'Be Kind' not just in words but in actions.
There is nothing that the PM can say to change the mindset of the protesters.
Hmmm I can think of several things the PM could say which would probably see an end to the protest today, and the PM would be behaving like a stateswoman in the process. A classic win-win, but it won't happen because the PM isn't a stateswoman.
The PM could say that vaccine passes and mandates have been rescinded and that we will never see them again while she is PM. She could say that we will never see another lockdown while she is PM. She could apologise unreservedly for the damage and harm caused by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes. She could cite the Health Ministry's pandemic plan (2017) which makes no mention of lockdowns, vaccine mandates or passes. She could explain why the Government (mistakenly) went much further than the pandemic plan envisaged. She could remind the public that the pandemic plan was predicated on the basis that 38,000 people would die over 8 weeks of an outbreak. She could advise the public that that simply could not have happened with COVID as the case fatality rate was too low. She could apologise for taking such draconian action, and state that such action will never be taken again while she is PM. She could apologise for the scaremongering that has been spread by Government Ministers, the media and officials. She could apologise to those who were dismissed or resigned from their jobs because they would not be coerced into getting vaccinated. She could formally apologise to Charlotte Bellis and other pregnant women who were unreasonably and unnecessarily denied access to their homeland. That would be a good start and would likely see an end to the protest today. But her spin doctors would have a heart attack.
The standard planning model assumes a total case fatality rate of 2 percent, within which about 38,000 deaths would occur over the eight-week period, peaking at about 23,500 in week four (compared with New Zealand’s normal weekly death rate of around 599)
Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?
The public will have their say on how well this Labour government handle the Covid – 19 pandemic at the next general election in the third quarter of 2023.
Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?
No, I'm saying the PM would be doing the right thing – and politicians should always do the right thing – by herself, her Government, the public and, lastly, the protesters. I think Hot Chocolate said it best.
Looking back on this band, they produced some of the best hooks in popular music ( everyone's a winner). ( you sexy thing). (It Started With A Kiss). (No Doubt About It).
The political equivalent, but without the talent, is Jacinda and her spin doctors: (be kind). ( tena koutou katoa). ( I'm not ignoring you Barry) ( I'll start with Jessica). ( We expect). ( I'll pass that to Dr Bloomfield) ( time to move on)
In line with your suggestion, a possible strategy.
Given the skillset required, it is unlikely to be found in the police force, but more usual in the Māori wardens (or their equivalent if there is one). They are immediately recognisable, and have a wealth of experience in dealing with the marginalised and distressed. They can be seen to have no skin in the game.
Imagine, having a group of such people working their way through the crowd organising meetings, that look to reduce the harm for the public – protestors and non-protestors alike. Handing out leaflets that outline those issues and allow time for discussion, and suggestions.
ie. 1. Given the large number of children present, what plans are in place for their physical wellbeing and safeguarding? Is anything else needed? Do you have a site policy of no drugs or alcohol? Are you able to manage this without assistance?
2. Are the public facilities available sufficient for the increased use? Does this need to be addressed in practical ways by the protestors to ensure physical health? ie. cleaning crew, additional supplies?
3. What are the plans to ensure wellbeing for all in terms of:
inclement weather, unsupported fringe actions, non-protestor distrust and reaction?
4. Is there a requirement for counselling support to those present?
5. Given a large proportion of negative response is due to concerns of the protest being a superspreader event, how are the organisers going to practically consider and address that impediment to being heard?
6. Is there a consensus list of concerns and solutions that are able to be agreed upon, that will allow those present to feel that their presence has been articulated in such a way that is valid? and will be a coherent message for media and the non-protesting public?
7. How are protest organisers dealing with those who attend that are utilising the protest for their own purposes, or acting in ways that are not consistent with peaceful protest? Is help required?
8. Have you considered putting together a depository of stories that will allow those not present to understand why you are all here?
Regardless of what we approve of, we need to look after people.
I recollect the experience of someone who worked in Civil Defence after the Christchurch earthquakes, who related the reluctance of many tourists to leave the marae experience after they had partaken of their hospitality when offered. A few stayed for several days on the largesse of the local marae, because it was provided for free, and they saw no need to move on somewhere where they had to pay.
If we can allow such casual selfishness for non-citizens, we can surely extend compassion to our own.
Who are the people within the protest that can be contacted in case of situations or emergencies? And provide them with a list of those who can be contacted by the protestors in respect of the same.
One of the protesters demands is that they be able to speak to the politicians.
Maybe we could ask them to choose two or three people who they feel best represent them to become part of a delegation to go and meet with the politicians in parliament. Including a media outlet of their choice to record and relay the proceedings back to them.
Asking them to hold an election to choose their representatives might be instructive of how democracy works and bring some sort of order and organisation to what seems to be an inchoate angry mob.
The standard planning model was probably not been based on Covid, and would assume no actions taken to slow cases.
Denmark has just removed all restrictions – they had a fairly good record, but not as good as New Zealands in preventing deaths, but they have now had over 2 million cases, 4,000 deaths, with 45,000 new cases and 24 new deaths yesterday – they have a similar population to NZ. I suspect your proposals above would not be supported in parliament by a majority of MPs; not all National MPs would vote for it.
So Ross, you think the government should do nothing to protect the people during a global pandemic, that they shouldn't try and save as many lives as possible and that they shouldn't prevent the health system from being overwhelmed?
"I apologise for Public Health Measures that have saved thousands of lives, and which have enjoyed great public support since the pandemic began. I realise now that people have the right to infect other people with deadly diseases through their own stupidity, and the Government should never intervene to protect the elderly and the vulnerable from such stupidity."
Not sure the PM needs to be the one to apologise for the damage covid has done compelling us as a country into lock downs, vaccine mandates and passes. Covid19 should be the person apologising for that. She could acknowledge it has been difficult for many and that covid times have necessitated such, but I believe she has done that a number of times. She has said there will be no more lockdowns, that's what the traffic light system is about. If things get incredibly dire and we are forced back into another lockdown I think most people will, even reluctantly, understand. common sense would prevail. Of course we are all hoping that is so. Once the omicron wave has passed we will be in a better position to relook at vaccine mandates and passes. I don't see them as being permanent. So the PM at some point might well be able to state their end. I have always seen them as a 'necessary evil' if you like, a time bound thing that has an end date, whatever that end date might be.
As for the protestors my plan would be this. Allow them to stay, contain them to a set area, remove vehicles clogging up streets and footpaths – a warning first and then towed, any more than moderate antisocial behaviour results in arrest, turn off the sprinklers and the floodlights etc, allow them to have a presence and pretty much ignore them as best can. if people want to camp out there for days on end then leave them to it.
The question may have been badly worded.
How do you intend to enforce that? Could have been written; How do you intend to compel that without the use of force?
The use of force requires using various levels of violence.
In this case, forcibly dragging people off the grounds of parliament against their will.
Society does have other ways to compel people
Fines, for instance.
But I see that their illegally parked vehicles have been ticketed didn't convince them to move them.
The occupation of the grounds of parliament is now a police operational matter. NZ is not a police state, the government need to be careful with what they say.
I would like the protesters to form a representative group and the group meet with Coster the police commissioner. An alternate venue to be decided and an exit time.
Mandates will eventually be done away with as they will not be required. I expect very few people will line up for a 4th vaccine using the current vaccines. Mandates will not be required when a vaccine is reliable and effective against Covid – 19.
I’m afraid JHTGT, that your suggestion for Jacinda ( or any polly for that matter) to address the crowd has already been suggested by me.
It has gone down like a lead balloon with a tonne weight on top.
Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.
If you think it’s good strategy for the PM to go out in front of an angry anti-vax crowd who want to string her up for “murder”, you are dumber than I thought.
If if is being done in an honest attempt to avert unnecessary violent confrontations in which no one wins, negotiating with your opponent is not legitimising their crank views.
''Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.''
No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.
These people are no different to Trump's insurrectionists – they are merely outgunned, and thus pretending to be peaceful.
The traditional remedy will do fine – read them the riot act, and arrest those who remain. No need for violence – confiscating their tents will get most of them gone sharpish.
''No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.''
No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.
You obviously haven't been reading my other posts on this thread.
You are either being wilfully ignorant, or you aren't getting the jist of what I'm saying.
You do realise that in an ABSOLUTE SENARIO with civil war breaking out in NZ, instigators would probably charge her with treason – they wouldn't be too concerned about the finer shades or appropriateness of the word ''treason.''
They would simply say – ''you refused to listen to us. You discriminated against us. You broke my family up. I was on a hundred grand a year you!#@$, now l’m eating baked beans. My loved one died when I was in M1Q. etc.
The chances of that happening at present is slim. But if the pressure keeps up, people will start to ask questions and reconsider the situation.
Questions like:
1- Why weren't protesters moved on quickly?
2- Surely some polly could have addressed the protesters?
3- Police brutality( already an issue)
4- My business had to close because of government inaction.
In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.
Do you understand, Stuart?
Oh, and Stuart. Don't forget I have predicted this year will be the worst in NZs history.
I don't understand this. No politician, not one, has engaged with this rabble.
Not one from any part of NZ's political spectrum.
You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.
''You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.''
Fair comment, and I said yesterday all other pollies stand condemned with Jacinda. Especially Luxon and Dave…supposed Righties. They are just wastes of space. They should have been out there in front of protesters offering an alternative reality for NZ.
But the protesters have come for only one polly..and that is Jacinda; leader of Labour and our nation. She is the one affecting protesters lives according to their perspective.
She must accept all consequences for what happens going forward regard this and possible future protests.
I have just finished the article. And after looking at the photo of this chap, I will say he looks like a pure feral with some mongrel bloodline. He also has form.
I would agree with you and admit Andrew will need to be careful.
I can't and don't read everything…neither do you, I would bet.
Notice how the article tracks some of my comments?
No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.
Of course you do! Who wouldn't? But then you say:
In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.
Astonishing! The unusually stupid people that you identify with are to be forgiven for their violence, their dishonesty , endangering public health, trespass, affray, and attempted insurrection – at least in the howling void that passes for your cognitive spaces.
I wonder if the judiciary will be so sympathetic "Blade".
We long ago understood that your intention is to lend credence to the semi-conscious liberation army presently threatening our democracy.
You are an aide and an accomplice to these traitors Blade, a mischievous miscreant who knows less about democracy than he ought, an agent provocateur maliciously trying to pollute public discourse and steer us towards a further derogation and destabilization, producing even less democracy than we presently enjoy as our institutions are fatally paralyzed by neoliberalism.
What a shameful practice you are engaged in Blade, the traditional province of foreign spies and saboteurs – no wonder you feel obliged to conceal your identity.
Wise up, you stupid, irresponsible, culpable prat. Neither you, nor your lunatic sympathizers presently cowering in the rain have anything whatsoever to offer NZ.
Go home. Sober up. Try to be less of a public disgrace.
Yes, we've noticed you have nothing to offer but personal abuse. No plausible links, no credible assertions, no testable premises – only cheap and stupid invective. You disgrace your cause.
Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.
It depends of course on what she would say. If it was the same old platitudes, then she'd be wasting her time and would likely antagonise the protesters. But a genuine mea culpa and appropriate action to rescind what have been terrible policies, it's a win-win-win – for the protesters, the public and her. But her spin doctors wouldn’t allow it lol
I have stated our police are incompetent. More so police hierarchy.
I'm guessing there's friction between what commanders on the ground want to do, and what Cuddles Costa and Poto Williams are allowing them to do.
That's leading to police frustration at having to hold the line when they know they could have resolved this situation days ago.
And of course, police like every organisation, have their hotheads who have short fuses. It's not rocket science as to what happens when they blow their fuses.
It will be interesting to see what comes out in the review into this protest that is to follow..
I repeat this is a guess and speculation on my part. I get tired of trolls who pick apart my comments when they can assail my main points.
"95% of eligible(?) Kiwis think they're great policies."
Are you taking this number from vaccination status? My partner and I are both double-vaxxed and boosted, and also disagree with the current government policy re vaccine passports.
There is also a failure to provide a data justification for this:ie. Does the difference in virus shedding for an unvaccinated person have a significant impact given that they are around 5% of the population? If so, how has that calculated benefit been weighed against the social and well-being costs of those that are obviously (and invisibly) struggling?
Although, I don't agree with all Ross writes above, he does provide an alternative that is still maintains authority, while showing understanding and compassion. It's the solving of the difficult situations that show your skill.
Of course, we can just keep on with the schoolyard level ridiculing and smugness that comes from knowing you are on the team of five million – less some.
Given that the protest is likely to be a superspreader event, we are likely to get some answers on the efficacy of a 'let it rip' approach soon enough. The problem is that we don't have the resources to cope with the fall-out if it all goes pear-shaped, especially when it is obvious that the staunch won't acknowledge being infected, even until seriously affected.
Yes, I know this is what is being said. What I haven't seen is the modelling that compares the unvaccinated shedding to get an outcome, and views it against the obvious distress and concern of the 5% that are unvaccinated.
95% of eligible Kiwis think they're great policies
And millions watch Coronation St, so by your logic it must be a great programme lol
I must confess I haven't seen any surveys where people have been asked whether they enjoy lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes, or whether they’ve assessed any cost/benefit analysis of such policies. Maybe you could point me to such a survey. When the senior editor of the British Medical Journal says that vaccine mandates are bad, you might want to listen. When economists and other experts say that lockdowns are a huge policy failure, you might want to listen. But it’s not mandatory.
The government policies in fighting the pandemic have been far from terrible, in fact this government's strategy for dealing with the pandemic have been recognised around the world.
Coronavirus: How New Zealand relied on science and empathy
"The "Be Kind" slogan is meaningless if it is only intended to be applied to those who agree with us. We were going to be kind to those people anyway."
It is – as you say – a slogan.
One that I have always disparaged, as it implies a starting point of no kindness.
I am aware there is plenty of uncelebrated kindness and compassion in NZ within the community. Be kind to them is preaching to the choir. Be kind to the terminally 'unkind' is pissing in the wind.
I find the term quite trite, and would never resort to it when parenting for that reason. It means nothing, because kindness is subjective.
Hi Jenny, I admit I have a personal antipathy towards the "Be Kind" message as mentioned above, but do agree with your view that this needs follow through.
Ironically, my first thought is that it really involves the other slogan that travelled around the world "They Are Us". Wouldn't that acknowledgment in this case be the kindest place to start?
But how are the protesters being kind to me? They are pretty much complying with none of the traffic light rules.
They want kindness but are going to be harming a lot of people through the high likelihood of creating a supers-preader event. There is only so much you can turn the other cheek to.
The ironic thing is that if this doesn't become a super-spreader event it will be down to the rules that the government put in place that has led to very low community spread.
And besides all that, it's the biggest anti-climate change rally without being an anti-climate change rally.
…it is the way they are going about it that I dislike.
Which I think is what Adrian is meaning. The way they are going about it suggests some of them are seriously disturbed. Mind you there been an improvement since the trouble shooters were removed from the scene.
I was debating the other day about flaws in our transition to green energy, and the missteps I believe we are making.
I was told the fossil fuel industry was dragging its heels and we need to move to green energy to basically save the planet.
But, in the real world not only the fossil fuel industry is supposedly dragging their heels, so are the unions. And I don't blame them. Covid would be least of our worries if fuel supplies ran out in these uncertain times.
Does the government understand this : No, they don't.
The union is presently taking out ads in the papers ( in our local at least) to explain this perilous situation.
Quote from link below:
''Mr Harrison says the fact that Energy Minister Megan Woods took a paper to Cabinet with a proposal for securing the future of the refinery was a clear indication that closure was a risky strategy.''
Crickey…that's a fly in the ointment for the Left, especially greenies… and even for a whole generation of anti nuclear protesters.
I'm investing in our first nuclear power plant.
There is a form of nuclear power production that is far safer and with less radio active waste. I believe that would be a viable compromise with the green set. Although I don't think the greens do compromise very well.
Funny. The NZ Green Party set the example for how to work across difference all the time. What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?
Looks to me like the oil companies, industrial farmers, rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise. We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?
''What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?''
Fair enough…give us some examples.
''Rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.''
You mean like farmers who are continually upgrading their farming practices, saving native bush and replanting wetlands?
Meanwhile, the media and Greensand the government continue to clobber the farming sector and use errant farmers as an example of why farmers need more regulations.
And while I'm at it – these latte slurping urban Greens and city folk generally, need a week on a farm to find out about the industry that keeps this country a float, and allows Robbo to play Robin Hood.
Maori need a serve here, too. I'm tired of hearing about them being kaitiaki of this and that. But when the time comes for community green projects that demand mahi…they are nowhere insight.
''We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?''
For the reason I have given above and in previous debates.
''What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?''
Fair enough…give us some examples.
You can do your own homework on that. I suggest reading Ad's posts and comments, because he talks about this albeit sometimes in negative ways about the Greens. But Shaw's basic position has been negotiation and getting a wide range of disparate sectors on board with the government's climate response, including farmers and business people.
''Rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.''
You mean like farmers who are continually upgrading their farming practices, saving native bush and replanting wetlands?
No. Don't selective quote me. I said,
Looks to me like the oil companies, industrial farmers, rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.
This is a tiresome debate. Obviously there are lots of farmers doing good things, others heading in the right direction, many stuck by their huge loans and so on. And, Fed Farmers is anti-green and dragging the chain massively on climate action, and industrial farming cannot by definition be sustainable.
Meanwhile, the media and Greensand the government continue to clobber the farming sector and use errant farmers as an example of why farmers need more regulations.
Maybe farmer should get together and form a new union, so that we don't have to take Fed Farmers as their main representation.
Even the best of covnentional farmers in my area (I live rurally) aren't even close to being sustainable. Despite some of them doing good things.
And while I'm at it – these latte slurping urban Greens and city folk generally, need a week on a farm to find out about the industry that keeps this country a float, and allows Robbo to play Robin Hood.
Haha, mate I've lived in the country most of my adult life and I have my own critique of townies. But you can't pull the wool over my eyes either and pretend that conventional ag isn't doing a lot of harm while it's making all that dosh for the country.
Maori need a serve here, too. I'm tired of hearing about them being kaitiaki of this and that. But when the time comes for community green projects that demand mahi…they are nowhere insight.
That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?
''We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?''
For the reason I have given above and in previous debates.
No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.
''No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.''
I blamed the union for nothing as far as I can remember. The union has the same concerns about fuel supply as the fossil fuel industry. See my link.
We have the technology to produce green energy. We do not have the infrastructure or capacity to use green technology to power NZ on its own without input from fossil fuel sources.
If you know this to be not true please provide a link.
Anyway, the present green technology is only a stop gap measure until cold fusion, zero point energy and hydrogen are perfected. Cold fusion is coming along nicely.
Then the universe will belong to us. I'm sure the citizens in far flung galactic communities will be thrilled to see a bunch of wankers like us.
''That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?''
That is an uncalled for comment. But it's a standard response to anyone who critiques Maori, gays and other assorted purveyors of wokeism.
No, I'm not involved in any green projects. I do however grow natives for replanting, and have planted riverbanks with trees to stop erosion.
I once offered trees to a project that was replanting on TeMata Peak in Hawke's Bay. The project manager, a retired local doctor, politely declined my offer because : ''the trees didn't come from the local area.'' We are talking natives of the same species required for planting.
Of course Maori have a big say over TeMata Peak, having recently stopped a winery from using a track they had made on the peak, even though the winery had every right to because it was on private land.
I'm GUESSINGthe good doctor declined my offer because he was worried he could have run foul of Maori. Usually doctors aren't so irrational.
So, sorry if you see me as a racist. I'm not. But I refuse to kiss woke butt.
Critise woke culture all you like, I was talking about your continual Māori bashing. You seem to be throwing anything liberal in terms of policy under wokeism.
Yes, biosourcing for native restoration matters.
NZ can't produce all the power it needs from anything. Magic tech to replace brown tech won't work on any level other than that some people will get richer for a while. We have to powerdown. Renewables can be part of that, but they come with their own set of problems. Continuing to burn fossil fuels is insane. Even if you don't believe in AGW, there are compelling reasons to powerdown and fast.
yeah, but you had a long history of lying about the Greens on TS, so you're bias is well established. Doesn't surprise me if you don't know what he's done, or if you do and are lying again.
I will admit to being biased about the Green Party. I don't think that the MPs that they have had since Rod Donald, Kennedy Graham and Kevin Hague have been Green at all.
However I do not accept that I lied about them. I merely highlighted things about them that some of their true believers didn't like being publicized. Was I being selective? Yes. But was I lying? No.
The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions.
As well as being the only truly Green solution to climate change, cutting back our emissions is also the only solution to climate change that is not being taken seriously.
Why are NZ's emissions still rising?
13 Apr, 2021 11:30 AM
New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions have shot up by more than a quarter in the past three decades ….
……gross emissions leapt by 26 per cent – or some 17.2 million metric tonnes of carbon dioxide (Mt CO2-e) – over that period.
…..gross and net emissions rose by around 2 per cent in 2019.
…..Under policies in place when the report was prepared, the country would fall short of its 2050 target of net-zero long-lived gases by 6.3Mt of CO2-e.
"The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions"
Why then do you not regard nuclear power as being Green?
"Nuclear power plants produce no greenhouse gas emissions during operation, and over the course of its life-cycle, nuclear produces about the same amount of carbon dioxide-equivalent emissions per unit of electricity as wind, and one-third of the emissions per unit of electricity when compared with solar."
Nuclear energy does not qualify as being green on a number of fronts.
The mining and processing of uranium into yellowcake, with negative health affects on mine workers, the local environment and water courses.
The problematic question as where to store or dispose of the massive amounts of deadly radioactive waste, and the maintenance of such facilities for time spans longer than civilisation has existed.
The contamination of large amounts of arable land and the irradiation of the local population in the case of an accidental release of radiation due to human error or natural disaster.
The statement about "massive amounts" and "time spans etc" are largely myths. There really isn't that much high level waste produced. The problem is with getting people to accept the ways that disposal could safely be done.
If you have a little bit of time have a look at this.
Most nuclear waste is surprisingly short lived. I remember when I was at University I did some experiments that involved irradiating various materials. One created quite active isotopes of silver. You certainly wouldn't have handled it when it was newly radiated. However the half life was only about 90 seconds and after 30 minutes the radiation level had dropped by a factor of a million. Most waste from reactors is quite short-lived, if not quite as short as that, and for the longer lived stuff vitrifying it and dumping it into a deep shaft in the Australian outback would get rid of it until long after it had decayed.
I know absolutely nothing about the mining of Uranium and have, therefore, nothing useful to say.
I guess the major Nuclear accidents were Chernobyl, Fukushima, Kyshtum, Windscale and Three Mile Island.
The number of short term deaths from Chernobyl was only about 50. The Chernobyl Forum came up with a figure of 4,000 to 9,000 for future cancer deaths while the Union of Concerned Scientists came up with 27,000. Greenpeace proposed that it was many more but I really doubt there detachment in their study
Fukushima occurred in 2011, There were about 20,000 people killed in the earthquake, the tsunami and the evacuation. In 2018 the first death from radiation was reported. I don't know whether there have been any others.
The 3rd and 4th were back in the 1950s and were in plants designed to make Plutonium for bombs. In other words they were in the early days and they weren't power stations.
At number five you get an incident that doesn't seem to have killed anyone at all. If these five are the worst accidents in about 70 years of the technology I really don't think that we have that much to concern ourselves with.
The main trouble with radiation is you can't see it, or feel it, while it is occurring. By the time you know it has happened you can't do anything much about it. That is why it is so scary.
…., in the past 12 months AFFCO New Zealand has successfully made two chartered reefer vessel shipments to the United States.
ANZCO Foods and Silver Fern Farms have now come on board, and Port Taranaki has been included in the multi-port charter.
Using the conventional shipping reduces the need to secure the containers, space on container vessels, and congested container shipping berths at the destination, where at some ports there is up to a month’s wait for access.
“Another advantage is that when the vessel gets to the USA there are other options for berthing. We’ll be able to moor and unload the meat into wharfside coolstores for distribution and within a week turnaround and come back to New Zealand and Taranaki for another load,” Falvey said.
I find it hard to understand why, when there are plenty of nuclear-powered military ships and submarines, there aren't more nuclear-powered supertankers.
Granted it would take a lot of expensive port infrastructure to handle, and granted a lot of cities would be nervous, but it sure seems easier than trans-Pacific electrified airlines.
It's a pity we have to reinvent the wheel. Coastal shipping was a key part of Aotearoa/New Zealand's early development before we got all clever and modern. It's predicted to make a comeback which is great.
This link is to a story is about a report commissioned by Waka Kotahi. They do get the occasional thing right, and I hope this one of them.
Some examples of police thuggery at the Wellington protest. Hopefully, the cops who have engaged in such disgraceful behaviour are held accountable. One can only hope that the same officers don’t treat their partners and children in the same way.
Of those three, the last one seems unnecessarily violent. The other two, we cannot see how they start so we can't know if the police response was disproportionate or not and if the people had resisted arrest or not.
The one with the teenage boy, that should be investigated to see if the policeman on the right is planking on his head, hard to tell from the video but it does look like another policeman comes up and says something and he stops.
Police can always do with looking at how they arrest people in such situations. I'm curious if you see the arrests as legitimate or not.
Many of us who know serving members of the police will know that for a significant portion the word protestor has an immediate and negative response. This response is unrelated to the reason for protest, but prejudiced against the act itself.
Whether this is a reaction to a pushback against authority, (which legitimises their own authority), or knowing they will be required to do crowd control in uncertain circumstances and the stress that accompanies that, I wouldn't know.
I would also think there would be a certain personality type attracted to the job, that like structure and rules and has discomfort around the idea and form of protests.
Unfortunately, sometimes there is a lack of self-awareness that removes the self-discipline required to respond well.
That makes a lot of sense. And the adrenaline and unpredictability of the situation as well, but I agree that the belief system one starts from influences how behaviour plays out in stressful situations.
If we accept that the arrests are legitimate, I think the conversation then becomes how can social and political pressure on the NZ Police move the to ensure that those arrests are done fairly and with the minimum force needed.
Likewise belief systems and political arguments. I suspect that Ross's belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong, therefore the police overstepping reinforces the belief that the mandates are wrong, round and round the circle. If the arrests aren't legitimate, are any arrests? Plenty of people at that protest will be anti-state and think the police should be disbanded. For those that believe these arrests are not legitimate, who should decide which ones are?
My own perspective is having watched XR in the UK make excellent political use of the police's mandate to arrest, that we should focus on how police can be pressured to change their tactics and behaviour towards fairness and justice, as well as putting the stark reality of the purpose of the protest in their faces.
I think that the experience of XR leaders and members, and the training and strategies that are conceived and taught have a marked difference in deployment and effect.
I admire the XR approach, but understand that the current NZ protests don't have those human resources and skills available.
That's irrelevant because we know how they end. (Was George Floyd’s treatment OK because of what he did earlier?) What do you think would've happened if the naked woman hadn't been visited by the cop apparently kneeling on her? She was already lying face down and was being restrained by two cops. The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair. We should never make excuses for police misconduct.
I suspect that Ross’s belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong.
'The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair."
I agree with this. Though I understand for many, their perspective will come from a place of personal lived experience.
From my perspective, she wasn't resisting. I saw the blanket coming, but was disconcerted to see it being put over her head, and not kept until they could cover her body after she had been handcuffed. There is something particularly dehumanising about covering someone's head while their body is naked. When I consider how I feel when my head is covered, I have a sense of abject horror. To accompany that with a pressure of unknown origin would be terrifying.
The threat of the woman, the non-resisting nature (until head covered) of their arrest, seems to indicate the headcovering and additional pressure was unnecessary and punitive.
My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head. At that point the media camera (or whoever) were close enough to make her identifiable. Later as they walked her away from the scene she had her back to the cameras so it wasn't necessary.
"My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head."
Like I mentioned previously, everyone is going to have their own perspective on this action. Mine differs from yours. Yours requires a knowledge of intent, which even if it is true, is a case of bolting the stable door given that she was intentionally naked at a public protest with no obvious attempt at hiding identity.
As I mentioned, I have a personal horror of having something put over my head, and see it as dehumanising to cover the head of someone that is naked. (The photos of the US military doing that in Abu Ghairib produce that visceral response in me.)
Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.
Really, we can only ask – could they have done better, ie. used less force and achieved the same?
Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.
Neither my comment nor anyone else's as far as I can see was suggesting otherwise. It is acceptable as both of us have done… to muse on a possible reason for something. That is how it came across to me when I first saw the clip. More often than not there is more than one reason why police officers – or anyone for that matter – may take a certain course of action in a highly charged siuation.
Just know, as a lifelong asthmatic, the sensation of having my head covered is psychologically distressing with the attendant physical response of breathing difficulties.
For me, if this is police policy, it needs to be addressed. NZ has a high number of asthmatics, and many would feel discomfort. The dehumanising aspect of it bothers me as well.
We can't see whether she was or not at the point they pulled her out by her hair.
I also though the sheet over the head was a problem, and she clearly reacts to something in that that we cannot see. Adrenaline and panic in that situation would make many people react reflexively.
It looked to me like the medic dropped it there because it wasn't possible to cover her body until she was cuffed, but I agree it could also be an intentional tactic, in which case it's bullshit.
She did pull her arms free though and I can see how the police would see this as resisting and potentially her getting violent.
Yes, as mentioned to Anne above, any interpretation is pure speculation, whether in approval or disapproval of police response. I'm not convinced all actions were necessary.
I would much rather be in a discussion of unanimous appreciation of examples of how the police are handling the protests, but understand that is unlikely.
My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked. It is a relatively common event apparently but this one happened to take place in a highly charged situation and in the presence of media.
I'm sure those officers would have strictly followed protocol precisely because of that situation and the media presence.
I'm not as confident about that last bit as you (there are all sorts of examples of police all over the world who do stupid and violent shit on camera). But it would make sense that they have specific protocols for arresting naked people, including in such a situation, and I agree it was highly charged and potentially dangerous.
Excellent, Anne! Can you get your Police relative to perhaps quote the section of the Arrest Manual that states (more or less)…
"If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."
'"If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."
Not a non-existent policy.
But would be interested in knowing what the actual policy is, to add some hard information to the discussion apart from all these reckons – myself included.
My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked.
Why would that be? Being naked is and of itself isn't a crime. If police have a problem with the sight of a naked body, their training needs to be improved.
In New Zealand, indecent exposure is considered to be where a person "intentionally and obscenely exposes any part of his or her genitals".[51] Otherwise there is no specific law prohibiting nudity in public places, although lesser charges may apply depending on the behaviour of the individual in question.
The High Court of New Zealand has upheld a conviction of disorderly conduct for nudity in the street, because it was not a place where nudity was known to occur or commonplace. Being nude in the street is likely to incur a small fine if a complaint is made against the person, or if the person ignores a police request to cover themselves. Being prosecuted for nudity on a public beach, or any place where nudity might be expected, is very unlikely.[52][53][54]
Go have an early AM slash in public unseen by anyone but the arresting police and find out. Indecent or not, exposing your genitals in public is a criminal offence.
Urinating in public is offensive though and that first link doesn't say he was charged for exposing his genitals in a public place.
Second link, dude was having a bath, naked, outside primary school. If he'd been on a beach and discrete for instance this wouldn't be considered offensive. Thus,
In his ruling, Justice Geoffrey Venning said that "as in most cases, context is everything".
"Mr Ker's actions were potentially an interference with the rights of others," he said.
"Primary school children should not be potentially subjected to men exposing their genitals in a way visible to them while at school.
"Against that, the exposure of Mr Ker's genitals was in the course of his washing himself. While thoughtless and inappropriate, the decision to wash himself which led to the exposure was not as blatant as other examples of exposure.
"Assessing Mr Ker's behaviour as best as I can … I consider that, while it may not reach the standard of revulsion or loathing required for obscenity, it clearly satisfies the test for offensive behaviour as arousing feelings of disgust and outrage in the minds of reasonable people.
"I conclude that Mr Ker did not obscenely expose his genitals but, in a public place, he behaved in an offensive manner."
From the legislation,
… who, in or within view of any public place, intentionally and obscenely exposes any part of his or her genitals.
That's irrelevant because we know how they end. (Was George Floyd’s treatment OK because of what he did earlier?)
The issue is if the force used is proportionate. To know that we have to know if they had been resisting arrest and if they had been violent to police already. I'm not seeing anything even close to what happened to George Floyd and this kind of hyperbole is just a bullshit diversion from what the issues in the Wellington arrests are. Obviously the behaviour of police and Floyd was completely relevant to what happened and who was culpable.
What do you think would've happened if the naked woman hadn't been visited by the cop apparently kneeling on her? She was already lying face down and was being restrained by two cops. The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary.
Like I said, we can't see why they were using force at all. Why didn't she just walk out when they said she was under arrest? In the video, she clearly gets her hands free, I don't think it's a stretch to think the police believed she was resisting arrest.
And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair.
Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?
I'd also like to know how she should have been arrested without pulling on her hair if she was forcefully resisting arrest. What if she was punch or kicking the cops?
We should never make excuses for police misconduct.
True, we shouldn't. We also shouldn't assume we know what happened.
Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event. You still haven't said if you think the arrests are legitimate or not. This matters, because if they are legitimate, the debate is then about what force should be used. Otherwise, just let them sit on parliament grounds for a month if they want to.
Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event.
You have got the stats that support your determination that these people pose a significant public health risk? I'm thinking about Soundsplash, that just snuck in before the Red Light was activated. Do you know the final tally associated with that event that was open to only Vaccine pass holders?
I take it that the last two anti-mandate protest marches in Welly resulted in lots of cases? Especially the last one?
From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…
What is it with that? I need to see the research that proves masks are necessary outdoors. Being able to breathe the air unimpeded must surely be better for one's health.
weka. Omicron is going to hopefully do the rounds of the entire country and we'll all hopefully develop some degree of natural immunity….because you're certainly not going to get the same quality immunity from the Pfizer product.
This is a good thing. Our immune systems need a good work out periodically so we are all able to better deal with harmful pathogens with less dependence on rapacious Big Pharma.
It is a very dangerous path we are being dragged down…this absolute dependence on these so-called vaccines that are being forced on us when they are of limited efficacy and suspect safety. Very dangerous, and I'm surprised that more here on TS can't see this.
So I support the protesters anti vaccine mandate demands …and I'm not the only one.
You have got the stats that support your determination that these people pose a significant public health risk?
Yes. Not using my Saturday morning finding and reposting them as this has been covered at length already. And explained to you many times, which even yesterday you were denying.
I'm thinking about Soundsplash, that just snuck in before the Red Light was activated. Do you know the final tally associated with that event that was open to only Vaccine pass holders?
Soundsplash shouldn't have happened. Look up McFlock's comment yesterday for the numbers.
I take it that the last two anti-mandate protest marches in Welly resulted in lots of cases? Especially the last one?
No idea, did they? You appear to not understand what the concepts of risk and risk assessment are.
From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…
What is it with that? I need to see the research that proves masks are necessary outdoors. Being able to breathe the air unimpeded must surely be better for one's health.
You're an idiot if after two years of pandemic you fail to understand the various reasons why some people do this. Or maybe you are being disingenuous again and do in fact understand but choose to misrepresent. I actually have no idea which.
weka. Omicron is going to hopefully do the rounds of the entire country and we'll all hopefully develop some degree of natural immunity….because you're certainly not going to get the same quality immunity from the Pfizer product.
Thanks for wishing so many of us at risk Rosemary. /sarc
I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes. Get back to me when there is some evidence for natural immunity and how that protects the public generally and then we can have a conversation. Myself, I think it will probably eventually happen, I don't think we are there yet.
This is a good thing. Our immune systems need a good work out periodically so we are all able to better deal with harmful pathogens with less dependence on rapacious Big Pharma.
Sure, but I'm wondering if you would take that approach if the death rate was 50%. There are limits to your philosophy and the debate is all about where those limits are.
It is a very dangerous path we are being dragged down…this absolute dependence on these so-called vaccines that are being forced on us when they are of limited efficacy and suspect safety. Very dangerous, and I'm surprised that more here on TS can't see this.
I think it's potentially dangerous, the vaccines had imperfect but still useful efficacy, and all pharmaceutical medicines have side effects that can harm people, but I don't think it's as dangerous as letting covid run free at this time.
Never mind the rhetoric….what about those injured and killed by the Pfizer product? I have heard nothing from you about this. Or are you unquestioningly accepting the official line that side effects are mild and transitory and myocarditis from Covid is much worse than from the 'vaccine'?
Sure our case and death numbers are low here and not many of us know someone who has died from Covid…but I bet most of us know at least one or two people who have had significant and persistent adverse effects from the Pfizer product.
Never mind the rhetoric….what about those injured and killed by the Pfizer product? I have heard nothing from you about this. Or are you unquestioningly accepting the official line that side effects are mild and transitory and myocarditis from Covid is much worse than from the 'vaccine'?
Fuck off. I delayed my vaccination out of legitimate concern for side effects because I was too unwell last year, and I talked about the issue generally in 2021. You really have a problem with listening and comprehending nuance, and I'm not buying into this bullshit binary framing.
I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes.
I just wish the Government would at least try to reduce child deaths in driveways. Doing nothing is cruel and heartless. I see another child was killed in their driveway on New Year's Eve. That follows similar deaths in 2021.
Medical experts have been bringing this issue to the attention of policy-makers for at least 20 years. Do you think we'll ever have any politicians that have the political will and courage to address the problem?
Children are often severely injured as a result of driveway run over injuries, … Child driveway deaths were highest in 2002 and. 2010 with seven deaths …
by SN Zealand — Higher incidence rates of driveway child death and injury have been observed in Australia … Ministry of Health Sector Services data is not suitable for.
The Child and Youth Mortality Review Committee, which operates under the auspices of the Health Quality & Safety Commission, is preparing a report on low-speed …
Preventing child deaths is a weird argument? Oh, that probably explains why politicians have ignored the issue…but in my lifetime I’d like to think we will see at least one politician who sees the benefits of reversing sensors on cars. It’s not rocket salad.
“The mortality rate from trauma to children in New Zealand may be relatively low compared with many developing nations, but when more appropriately compared with that of other OECD countries, New Zealand ranks the worst.
Our ongoing record with driveway accidents represents a “blackspot” in New Zealand’s attempts to create a safe environment for its children. It is to our shame that we have the highest reported rate of driveway accidents in the world.”
That was written by a paediatrician 20 years ago. There is no excuse for political inaction.
From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…
I think this comment by your friend shows as much about their non comprehension over the best practice for mask wearing as it does about the way the virus spreads.
Mask wearing in wellington in the situations your contact will have seen is because there are many situations in day to day Wellington outside that a person cannot maintain the recommended physical distancing
like
every single lunch time walking down LQ to get your lunch,
every time you go to the wharf or local pocket parks to eat your lunch
every single time you wait for a bus or train on a crowded bus stop/train platform.
Walking down the streets in the CBD at times is a mater of being shoulder to shoulder and ducking in and out of people. There is no room to spread out like in country towns. The people density does not allow it.
If you are outside but in a crowded situation within the aerosol transmission circle of someone with the virus wouldn't it be wise just to wear the mask as way of preventing spread? Usually if I am going out and about in my suburb it put the mask on, then you are prepared for all eventualities…….makes sense.
I must admit I am appalled at the stupid disregard for actions to designed protect oneself and others that is being shown at the protest.
Epidemiologist Rod Jackson said it would be "very surprising" if Covid-19 wasn’t spreading among the protesters, and their protest risked becoming a superspreader event with ramifications for the entire country.
Is it uncommon for anti vaxxers in your circle to wear masks?
That mask wearing in risky situations would attract comment sounds as though it is either not understood or not practiced.
Hence my intuition telling me when we first started with the vaccines and masks that non mask wearers in situations where prudent people would wear a mask were likely to be unvaccinated and possibly 'live' was correct.
Then there is this view that I quoted yesterday from yesterday from a commentator who is giving careful views on the protest as it unfolds
Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara
'One of the saddest thing is seeing protestors determined to spread the virus amongst each other, the enacting of the meta reality imported from the US that there is no virus, and that it is the vaccine that is the cause of mass deaths.'
Sorry Weka I am not able to get to link this again as I did yesterday. It just does not go to the individual tweet no matter what I do.
There's a comment from a reply on that twitter feed about a protestor called Amanda / Mandy who had the snuffles and a tickly throat and had tested positive to covid. And not wearing a mask, of course.
Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?
You're asking the wrong question. Police didn't need to cover her up if she's chosen to be naked. As I’ve said, being naked isn't a crime. If she had broken the law, police were entitled to arrest her in a non-violent manner. What law had she broken?
afaik all the arrests were because the crowd had been trespassed and refused to leave.
Not sure if they're also breaking any health orders.
Covering her up may be part of the arrest protocol and designed to make the arrest easier for the police and prevent issues of alleged sexual assault. No-one has the right to be naked while being arrested afaik. Let me know if they do.
I don't blame the police. The police have been put in an unenviable position.
I blame Trevor Mallard for pitting the police against the protesters.
Mallard is impulsive bully boy with a record of violence. Trevor Mallard is the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Let us hope that wiser heads prevail to get Trevor Mallard to rescind his trespass order.
The protestors are a hazard. Their cars/trucks/vans are blocking access ways and if there is any kind of emergency then it could become incredibly dangerous.
The protestors are a hazard. Their cars/trucks/vans are blocking access ways and if there is any kind of emergency then it could become incredibly dangerous.
I agree these vehicles need to be moved as soon as possible. I can't believe that this has been allowed.
The Wellington City Council have a list of a approved tow truck companies. These contractors need to be given all the resources they need to carry out their lawful business.
That this hasn't been done is a failure of leadership.
Instead the authorities are gearing up for a direct confrontation with the protesters.
Leaving them with their vehicles almost seems that the authorities want them to stay so that the can stay so that we can have this confrontation.
I agree Mallard is a bully. Completely unnecessary to put the sprinklers on – let alone through the night. Couldn't believe how stupid he can be. Idiot.
Typical from well-off people who think it is funny to treat the poor and unwell like shit. It is just part of that stick approach taken to welfare – policy and decisions made by people who live in well-off areas without any actual poor people.
I don't agree with the protestors but I agree even less with doing this sort of crap to them. Puerile.
yep, and it's like adding fuel to the fire of dissatisfaction with the government. Really stupid. It's also a crowd that understands the value of overcoming adversity and how that makes you stronger.
Speaker Trevor Mallard confirmed he had ordered the sprinklers to be turned on as part of efforts to clear the protesters. He said the sprinklers will stay on through the night.
Mallard told 1News: "They're not legally on the ground, so there is no problem adding a little to their discomfort.
He has now ordered the loudspeakers at parliament to play Barry Manilow
Loud music, including the work of Barry Manilow and the 1990s earworm Macarena, is the latest deterrent launched at the anti-vaccine mandate protesters at parliament in Wellington.
After a sodden day on the lawn in front of the Beehive and Parliament Buildings, the music was turned on shortly after 6pm on Saturday, by Speaker Trevor Mallard.
The really stupid thing is that Mallard is doing what these demonstrators want. They want to draw the government into a confrontation.
Mallard is doing more damage to this government than the protesters.
It's a tragedy in the making that an intemperate bullyboy with a history of violence is the one calling the shots here.
I mean Trevor Mallard is someone you couldn't trust to hold down a fund raising cake stall without getting into a heated argument with a member of the public.
The Prime Minister needs to take Mallard aside and have a quiet word in his ear to cool it.
She'd have to choose the correct ear of course. Trevor is deaf in at least one of them. I'm not sure which one but he refers to it in Parliament quite often.
They dealt with it though, that's the main thing. Quickly made what look to me like well considered drains, not too big, just right for the job so far and capable of enlarging and extending if need be.
Came across this, watch the video the police descended into thuggery pretty quickly. They cop that stuck his knee on the womans head/neck was out of line was completely unnecessary she was already on the ground and covered.
if you watch carefully, she struggles and gets her arms free. He walks up calmly, then firmly but not violently holds her head on the ground so they can cuff her wrists. I'm guessing this is standard arrest technique in such a situation.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The knee on the back of head like that is not something I'm comfortable with nor the way she was dragged from the crowd…
On a brighter note bloody hilarious how Trevor's sprinkler stunt has backfired. Someones turned up with decoys and they're digging ponds and planting trees….
I don't know if either were warranted, I wasn't there. I'm guessing (because we can't see) that the knee was on the side of her head, not the back of it.
If she had resisted arrest and been punching or kicking the cops (out of sight of the video) what do you think they should have done to arrest her? The thing that interests me here is whether the arrests are legitimate and how much force shoud be used. In other words, are the people objecting doing so because they don't believe the arrests should be happening at all.
On a brighter note bloody hilarious how Trevor's sprinkler stunt has backfired. Someones turned up with decoys and they're digging ponds and planting trees….
I think the sprinkler stunt was particularly petty and stupid – along the lines of 'never do an enemy a small injury'.
There was zero chance, that a sprinkle of water (especially in Wellington and with the weather forecast!) was going to deter committed protestors.
All, he's done is given them an opportunity to turn it into a PR stunt, and make him look ineffectual.
oh, all night, I had heard they were on briefly. Thanks. Yeah, that was stupid. I've actually got increasing respect for the protestors around their ability to adapt and that they've stayed so long. This is impressive for people that are not used to protesting.
Had they just put up with it and not dug trenches and disturbed the root base they would be perhaps ankle deep in an unpleasant but manageable mud bath. Dollars to donuts they're now past ankle deep in an absolute quagmire with mud from arsehole to breakfast and the more they move around trying to do something about it, the worse it'll get.
I think the sprinkler stunt was particularly petty and stupid
The Wellington City Council has a partial ban on sprinkler use. If the water restrictions don't apply to Trevor, then why should they apply to anyone else? The covidiot is setting a great example.
In summer, if every Wellington household turned on a garden hose for 1 hour a day, 70 million extra litres of water would be used – almost double Wellington's daily winter use.
Another interesting fact. An aptronym that matched the occupation of the lawn by the lady who declared she would 'divorce her husband for getting the booster because he'll die you know" Name Anne Looney. (Was in the Granny)
Without doubt she is quite unwell, personally I don't think she should have been featured like she has nor named. I suspect it's going to be very detrimental to her long term. Also an example of MSM going out of their way to be cast the protesters in a bad light.
Also an example of how the stresses of Covid can effect peoples mental health and family situations very badly. She needed empathy not ridicule.
Speculation on my part, but given how distressed she seemed and a longer cut of the "voxpop" I saw she was convinced that he was going to die from the vax.
To get to that point I feel it likely there are mental health issues at play.
I haven't seen the longer version. I have friends that believe mass people are going to die from the covid vaccine this year. I don't think they are mentally unwell. I'm not sure how to think about it tbh.
The division began that day Patricia Bremner, and Ardern initiated it.
Families are being fractured over this….for no scientific reason.
[assertions of fact without links or backup deleted. You’re just back from a ban for the same thing, at some point my patience will run out again, but currently people get one chance and then I just delete. You’ve had yours – weka
assertions of fact without links or backup deleted.
Sorry about that…I got criticised the last time I linked to these but it is with extreme delight that I will post again .
Lest we forget.
A way that we could keep vaccinated people safe from those who have not been.
Vaccinations are our armour. They help keep us safe.
So my message to the New Zealanders who have not yet had their first dose – if you want summer, if you want to go to bars and restaurants. Get vaccinated. If you want to get a haircut. Get vaccinated. If you want to go to a concert, or a festival – get vaccinated. If you want to go to a gym, or a sports events, get vaccinated.
If you are not vaccinated, there will be everyday things you will miss out on.
And if you are vaccinated you can be assured that in the new framework, you will get to enjoy the things you love, secure in the knowledge that the people around you, and the environment you are in, is as safe as possible in a COVID world.
If you have done the right thing to keep yourself and others safe, to look after one another, you should feel safe. You should be protected from those who haven’t made that choice.
Sorry about that…I got criticised the last time I linked to these…
we've been here before. I don't care if you get criticised. I care that you continually make assertions of fact and don't back them up. You've sucked up a lot of moderator time (not just mine) on this alone in the past year. Every time you want to make an assertion of fact, back it up with a link and a quote and an explanation.
A lesbian couple, one of whom had lost her job as a bee keeper due to mandates. Same with a physiotherapist from Northland.
And a women, with the somewhat unfortunate surname of Looney…..she is willing to lose her longstanding marriage as her husband is pro vaccination. These people are unlikely to be deterred by rain
I really have no idea of what is the best way forward with this situation. My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.
“We are here to get our freedom back, we want our jobs back, we want to go back to love and hugs, we miss it, we miss the normality,” Larnia To’angutu, one of the hundreds at Parliament, said.
Larnia To’angutu lost her job as a beekeeper for Plant and Food Research because she chose not to get vaccinated. She said it “sucked pretty bad” to be unemployed.
Their stance on vaccination and mandates has divided their family, who would like them to take a Covid-19 test to see an 86-year-old grandmother.
“We believe in the freedom and the right to choose what we would like to do with our own body according to our own experiences, because everyone is so individual,” Whitney To’angutu said.
That just shows the level of selfish we are dealing with, wanting to visit your 86 year old grandmother unvaxed and untested.
the vaccinated person is less likely to have covid than the unvaccinated person, and thus is less of a risk. From memory they’re also likely to have a lower viral load if they are infected and asymptomatic.
If the unvaxxed person doesn't want to get vaccinated, they can reduce their risk to their grandmother by getting tested before visiting.
They should all be doing things like fitted masks, distancing, good ventilation, spending time outside if possible, monitoring symptoms, hand/face hygiene, and so on.
What is so difficult to understand about that? Do people really not understand risk assessment and reduction?
weka, I've been looking (albeit sporadically) for the difference between vaccinated people and unvaccinated people getting Covid, and can't find a definitive comparison.
Efficacy measures how well a vaccine can prevent symptomatic infection (and sometimes transmission) in clinical trials. This is under ideal and controlled conditions, comparing people who receive the vaccine with those who receive a saline placebo.
Effectiveness is the measure used in the real-world
Effectiveness is how well the vaccine performs in the real world outside of the clinical trials in a mixed population. We would expect a vaccine with a high efficacy to be highly effective in the real-world but these measures are unlikely to be the same.
They don't say that vaccination protects against infection – just symptomatic infection.
Looking specifically at the risk of transmission, there may be some benefit, but its only a suggestion. There is no statement here on the difference on the shedding of asymptomatic vaccinated people, vs infected non-vaccinated people. In reality, I think the self-care of symptomatic un-vaccinated would result in their removal from the public anyway. More harm may actually be done by asymptomatic infections, unknowingly participating in their usual life.
I think it is understandable that people are interpreting this in such a way to question the evidence weight behind continuing vaccine passports and mandates.
I’m probably going to exit the commenting soon, just heading out. But would be interested if you did have a link to data on the difference, and would appreciate your thoughts on the result of health care etc on symptomatic people restricting movement and wider infections.
I have looked at the Mystery's websites, often, and have found a dearth of actual peer reviewed research (other than Pfizer/BionTech or Astra Zeneca publications) to support any of their statements.
Hope you are well and the heat is not too taxing. Just got a call from young tane who traveled to Welly overnight. He was there last week as part of the Convoy, and returned North for work. He says that even the dogs are friendly…with each other and the humans. He has $$$ to donate to those providing basic support for the team and is struggling to unload them. So much donated stuff from so many Kiwis all over the rohe. Looks like my donation will go to the guys who are providing the portaloos. History being made here.
that side of the protest is impressive. I really hope they can build off this in terms of organising and looking after people for the long term. There's serious community building potential here alongside whatever politics are being worked on.
I have looked at the Mystery's websites, often, and have found a dearth of actual peer reviewed research (other than Pfizer/BionTech or Astra Zeneca publications) to support any of their statements.
Here's a MoH update from December 2021. "She's pretty big job!"
I would express the belief that "Every vaccination brings us closer, together", but understand that not everyone can take part. The quantity of evidence of risks associated with COVID-19 infection is mind-boggling. The benefits of COVID-19 infection are more difficult to discern. Indeed it appears that several million people have perished due to COVID-19 infection – a global tragedy.
Finally, as the pandemic, with all its dynamic features, continues to progress, as the virus continues to mutate and as new variants emerge, as treatment strategies of acute and post-acute COVID-19 evolve and as vaccine uptake improves, it is possible that the epidemiology of cardiovascular manifestations in COVID-19 might also change over time.
In summary, using a national cohort of people with COVID-19, we show that risk and 12-month burden of incident cardiovascular disease are substantial and span several cardiovascular disease categories (ischemic and non-ischemic heart disease, dysrhythmias and others). The risks and burdens of cardiovascular disease were evident even among those whose acute COVID-19 did not necessitate hospitalization. Care pathways of people who survived the acute episode of COVID-19 should include attention to cardiovascular health and disease.
Now that's 50 seconds of my life I'll not get back. I call for peer reviewed scientific papers about Pfizer product safety and efficacy and you send me on a click- bait level nos dive into more fluff.
Sheesh. I expected better from you Drowsy "Unite for Covid" M. Kram. At least a link to a Scientific American pharma funded puff piece.
Sorry to have wasted 50 seconds of your life Rosemary. I suspected none of those 9 links would meet your rigourous scientific standards, although why this is the case remains a mystery of misinformation.
If you're looking for information on how awful the Covid-19 vaccines are, then I can't help you at the moment. When I come across peer-reviewed research showing that the mRNA vaccines are in fact pure poison then I'll be sure to shunt it your way without delay, and report that rascally Dr Ramanathan to the Medical Council of NZ while I'm at it. Sheesh!
It's complex and I see it as risk assessment and choosing the best path given a range of intersecting issues and tools. But, on the issue of infection by omicron, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, afaik the chances of getting covid are higher in unvaccinated people (and this in turn affects transmission rates in the two groups)
eg (random google search)
That suggests that the Omicron variant is much better than Delta at breaking through the immunity conferred by vaccines. However, the team says that a third, booster shot still cuts the risk of Omicron infection by 50%. The findings have not yet been peer reviewed.
I interpret that as vaccination has a useful efficacy when used alongside the other tools like the NZ govt is doing. Anti-vaxxers interpret that as it being useless or almost useless.
The issue is actually whether the degree of overall efficacy of all of our response justifies the mandates. I think it does at this stage. I think we could and should have looked after people who were badly affected by the mandates far better than we have, financially, careers, socially and so on. It's not a simple mandate vs no mandate situation for me.
NZ is in unique situation in terms of omicron and covid generally. We are pioneering ways that not many other countries have done or been able to.
Almost no-one is talking about long covid. That's one of the biggest motivators for me in terms of my position on the NZ response. I don't care if people don't want to be vaccinated, I do care if they want other people to not be, or if they want omicron to run free. It's alarmingly negligent.
also, most of what I see from the let it rip crowd is based on the impact on individuals and doesn't seem to understand what public health is. For me the implications collectively are blinding.
“My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.”
Don't worry about that. I understand there is some concern that the Omicron outbreak might not peak soon enough, and we could reach the peak during winter when there is lots of other bugs around and hospitals tend to be quite full anyway.
So a super spreader event that speeds the process up might not be a bad thing.
Don't worry about that. I understand there is some concern that the Omicron outbreak might not peak soon enough, and we could reach the peak during winter when there is lots of other bugs around and hospitals tend to be quite full anyway.
Concern by who?
We might also find that we don't peak but have a slow spread over the year. Or maybe we have a steady rise then fall over the next few months rather than the sharp peak that was anticipated. Or maybe it's all about to break loose this month. Precaution serves us well here, if people are willing to play their part.
So a super spreader event that speeds the process up might not be a bad thing.
if you want the certain risk of people to dying, becoming disabled, and the large negative impacts on the health system.
"An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere."
"The biggest headache with battling Omicron in the colder months, of course, was that health services would be already stretched dealing with winter ills like the flu or RSV, which caused a national crisis last year."
In light of those comments, I guess we don't know if a super spreader event would be a good thing or a bad thing taking everything into account. I guess time will tell.
An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere.
Are there places where omicron is no longer active?
But from coverage I have seen in other countries, the tendency of fast moving viruses like Omicron is to rapidly infect lots of people until it becomes progressively harder to find people who haven't experienced the virus. So, it doesn't necessarily mean no-one gets it anymore, though, who knows, it might.
But quite possibly just that the number of new infections becomes so small it is no longer a problem.
If we can be at that sort of level by winter, then it is probably what the authorities are looking for I expect.
Though getting the balance right between not overwhelming the health system now vs not overwhelming it in winter is not going to be easy I expect.
It seems like modellers seem all over the place with this.
Or not.
Some suggest our Hootonian Institute modellers may be taking some comfort from yesterday and today’s case numbers. They are not. Their commitment to scholarship and accountability is such that they offer only embarrassed apologies for being out by 4 days and 28 cases. #NoExcuseshttps://t.co/Q4PgRXUhpK
do you really want NZ public health to be based on maybes and possibly and quite likely?
But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong. Should we be spending billions of dollars, that we don't have, based on assumptions, maybes and possibilities? How will you feel when we experience cuts to health, education and welfare to address this indebtedness?
Ah yes, more goalpost moving and circular reasoning.
But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong.
They were wrong because the response to COVID-19 took these assumptions into account so as to prevent that level of harm. What should we have done instead? How many deaths are you prepared to accept?
How will you feel when we experience cuts to health, education and welfare to address this indebtedness?
That's the fallacy of begging the question. Why would there be a need for cuts to these services?
"An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere."
Australia, huh.
//
The head of Australia’s peak aged care body has linked New South Wales premier Dominic Perrottet’s decision to lift Covid restrictions late last year to the deaths of hundreds of aged care residents.
Appearing before a NSW parliamentary inquiry into the government’s response to Covid-19 on Friday, the chief executive of Aged and Community Services Australia, Paul Sadler, said his organisation – which represents not-for-profit aged care homes – had in December raised the risks posed to the sector from a widespread lifting of restrictions once cases of Omicron began appearing in the community.
“Of course what happened was the premier made the decision to continue down the pathway of opening up and within days the number of outbreaks in residential [facilities] skyrocketed and there are now hundreds of deaths in NSW in aged care since that decision was taken,” Sadler said.
Of course it will be active for longer. We're back to "flattening the curve". Fucksake. Less harm over a longer period, vs the utter shit we see overseas.
This is what I mean when I say is it ignorance* or disingenuous. It's like people are just making up what the pandemic response is and then arguing against their phantom pandemic response.
*has to be willful at this point, although I concede that people are stressed and feeling attacks on dearly held principles.
as an aside, do you know if there is reliable reporting on the Otago covid positive cases and where they are? I've got the locations of interest map, but the MoH still seems to be logging cases by DHB. Can't quite figure out where the MSM are getting specific locations for actual cases from.
No idea. The lack of LoI for the Dunedin case suggests they went to maybe Q'town and got a positive result on return. Maybe it's in the live briefings? Haven't watched one of those for months lol
I agree with you Solkta about it being selfish to want to visit elderly GM without texting or vacinne.
I think some people seem unable to appreciate that we are in a Global pandemic. Our sacrifices have been so few compared to people who went through for example WW 2.
A correction on my earlier comment…should have been it will go really badly for the health system down here. My bottom line is always the poor nurses and doctors whose health and lives are at risk due to covid and the stress and burnout that will come from managing the burgeoning workload that is yet to come.
if they really don’t want to get faxed, that is their choice. But how about lying low so you don’t spread the virus? Some of us are already doing that anyway, even though we are boosted.
discusses the shift of US capitalism from an industrial state to what he calls a predator state: a finance-led, military-centered corporate republic that continues to prevail. To overcome it, he lays out what is needed to focus on employment, stability and adjustments to rising resource costs.
Contrary to simplistic neoliberal idealism
… it was an industrial capitalism that was rooted in the functioning of large organizations of large industrial corporations. And not in this notion that really was a hangover from the 18th century of essentially independent, small businesses and farmers and so forth all transacting with the so-called market as the dominant institution.
It looks at some of the world economies that have retained an industrial focus that limits the asset stripping tendencies of predatory finance and also the logic of BRI infrastructure building in a resource constrained world. He treats the economy as having the same form as a biophysical system,
On climate change
First of all, we have to recognize we have some obligations to the planet. Those obligations are to move away from the cheap and dirty fuels. And to create systems that are sustainable over a long period of time. This is partly an engineering problem but it also is a question of resource allocation.
And you’re going to have to put resources into that to make it happen. Economists talk rather glibly about carbon taxes and say: Okay, we can get the price of using carbon up. But it doesn’t work that way. People who own a gasoline powered car cannot immediately switch to something else. It’s not as though they have a horse in the backyard that doesn’t emit carbon dioxide.
So, one has to build systems that are functional. And in order to do that, you’ll have to commit resources. In committing resources, you’re going to have a lot of things that are you’re using resources for that are not immediately consumable. And they will yield benefits down the road. And so you have to manage that transition.
On the military
…in the modern world the military advantage is with the defense. It’s with those who control their own territory. Because first of all, it’s technology. Secondly, it’s the expectation that at the end of the day, they’re going to be the ones who are going to still be there. That nobody’s going to stay on somebody else’s territory indefinitely.
And so we shouldn’t expect that the security arrangements for the world can be like what we imagined, what some people imagined they would be 30 years ago. We have to come to grips with this. It means we really should for our own sake and for the sake of our economy completely reconfigure our military posture; recognize lots of things that we have are not, not going to be useful.
And we need to build a global security framework which takes account of the power centers that have emerged which we need to accept and deal with. We did this in the Cold War when the Soviet Union was essentially the major security partner, adversary, however you want to describe it. Essentially a balance of power, not a particularly happy one, but one which kept conflict down, did develop.
We need to recognize that we’re not going to escape having to do that again. And maybe you don’t like the countries that you deal with, but that’s not the point. You have to deal with them. And you have to come to the best security arrangements you can achieve. We can’t pretend that it is within our power to prevent that.
They threatened torrential rain since yesterday and have had piss all really here in Johnsonville.
They can tend to over gild the lily weather wise with Wellington.
Don't get me wrong. It can hammer it down big time here and sound like a thousand people hitting your roof, but just ain't looking likely that bad atm.
This storm is coming from the tropics. So, if it is anything like here in Christchurch, it is wet but quite warm. So, the protesters may be able to tolerate that.
If anything, it might wash away the faeces and urine they have been excreting.
If it was similar rain driven by a howling southerly they might not be so keen on staying.
Don't particularly get into the actual mandate protesters actions.
Though I must admit I agree with them.
Personally think it was just a needs must thing at the time, but the govt better actually for once plan a time to turf them.
I think the one thing I learnt from this whole thing is Mallard is an even bigger prick than I thought. My low opinion of him managed to sink even lower. Which I didn't actually think was possible.
I have nearly finished watching an excellent docu-drama on Netflix: "The Lost Pirate Kingdom". It is really worth a watch.
I didn't realise up until seeing this how democratic the pirate society was; for instance, sailors sharing an equal division of the plunder and having the right to vote off the captain if they didn't think he was doing a good job.
And how much they did to disrupt the slave trade and set a lot of slaves free and gave them a comparatively much better life as equals in their society.
In the light of history, the pirates were probably a lot better than the British elite at the time.
It absolutely is the most fascinating history. The best book I have read on the topic is "The Many Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic"
It begins with the wreck of the Sea-Venture the real life story of the Puritanical rejection of Paradise in the form of the uninhabited island of Bermuda in favour of starvation and death in the new colony forming in Virginia.
The chapter Hydrarchy: Sailors, Pirates, and the Maritime State :
The ship thus became both an engine of capitalism in the wake of the bourgeois revolution in England and a setting of resistance, a place to which and in which the ideas and practices of revolutionaries defeated and repressed by Cromwell and then by King Charles escaped, re-formed, circulated, and persisted
Have a look at Black Sails, a series that was on Starz a while back. An excellent drama about the democracy and shenanigans of piracy. Great production value, well acted, a bit fleshy in places, but that tapers off.
Researchers found that rates of many conditions, such as heart failure and stroke, were substantially higher in people who had recovered from COVID-19 than in similar people who hadn’t had the disease.
What’s more, the risk was elevated even for those who were under 65 years of age and lacked risk factors, such as obesity or diabetes.
Those claiming the effects of COVID are no worse than a bad cold might want to rethink their position on that.
If the left would like to talk about something other than COVID for a change here's something: Winz hold times are now regularly over two hours with no call back option (I waited 90 minutes on Thursday) take a look at MSDs Facebook pages mentions and comments, it's wide spread.
If unemployment is at 3% and historically low how come MSD call times are historically high? Could it be someone's playing silly buggers and putting beneficiaries on sickness benefits instead of unemployment and counting an hour of work a week as fully employed to air brush the stats? Of course it is.
Also Swarbrick is warming on me, I've criticized her a lot in the past but she continues to be the only person I really hear on the left talking left wing economics.
The greens should make her a co-leader and scrap the cooperation agreement with Labour and scoop up angry labour voters by attacking labour from the left, perhaps saving labour from itself and ensuring a third term and also force labours attention to the economic issues labours people actually face which largely are being ignored as "it's a global phenomenon" yes but all politics is local. Blocking your ears won't help.
Millennials, gen z, average workers, renters, beneficiaries, pensioners and everyone in between are getting angry and feeling hopeless and like they are going backwards and feel the govt doesn't hear them or worse care.
Inflation groceries rent it's just too much and much of what we hear from the govt is them ruling things out and then saying we're not ruling anything out then ruling them out again.
As important as the COVID response is its now starting to feel like the left hides behind it to distract from horrific housing and inequality and inflation.
If National was in power right now those anti vax mandate protesters wouldn't be on the lawn of parliament because there'd be no room, wed all be protesting the Tories disgusting, irresponsible and inadequate response to housing, living costs and inequality.
This is going to be one hell of a rough winter for Labour and this coming budget needs to be a damn good one to address inflation, housing, poverty and loving costs in NZ and it needs to be a lot better than the min wage rise (which was a nice start)
With inflation rising and our cities running out of houses to rent (front page of press today only 670 houses in chch are available to rent, all the new builds sit empty) this could well be labours own winter of discontent.
Hopefully Labour acts, if they don't hopefully the greens push them. This winter could be when the tides turn and I for one am terrified of a nat govt that unlike Key has to rely on act votes. It will be Ruth Richardson economics all over again.
Is there a point where the rate of infection doesn't matter anymore and getting through it as fast as possible becomes more important?
Obviously it is far better for the health system etc to remain in a state where it is able to cope with the infections without a problem.
But perhaps it could reach a tipping point where "letting it rip" as fast as possible becomes a better scenario.
For instance, if the health system is overwhelmed by 5000 people, it probably wouldn't make any difference if it were overwhelmed by 10000 people. But, at least with 10000 people it probably means the virus is moving a lot faster hence we get through it quicker and return to normality faster. But at say 5000 people it might mean the health system stays overwhelmed for longer hence could lead to worse outcomes overall.
Is there a point where the rate of infection doesn't matter anymore and getting through it as fast as possible becomes more important?
No. You're doing a lot of reading and thinking. I'd suggest adding long covid to that. Read what doctors are saying including the specialists eg heart, brain or kidney doctors. Read the research reports and people talking about the broader implications eg on workforce.
Long covid isn't the only factor in this, but its the one being consistently missed in people's analysis.
Btw, what do you think the normal is that we would return to if we let omicron move through unrestricted at some point?
For instance, if the health system is overwhelmed by 5000 people, it probably wouldn't make any difference if it were overwhelmed by 10000 people.
Yeah it does. Overexhaustion of a system isn't a binary state, it gets progressively worse.
Triage deprioritises patients less likely to survive. The worse the overwhelming, the higher that line goes in the "who gets the oxygen" game.
Then there's the gap between "treating everyone" and "locking the doors, turning people away": fewer people providing more palliative care and services like bathing. Infected bed sores, DVT, malnourishment. Scutari all over again, despite best efforts. Or send 'em home to unprepared and possibly ill relatives/flatties to do their best?
Then there's trying to source tents, freezer containers, etc when industry is moderately affected vs trying to source them when the factories are shut and the trucks aren't moving.
Case studies of overwhelmed systems have massive differences in severity according to how much they're overwhelmed. It starts with the postponing of scheduled surgeries. It ends… pretty bad.
And that's just the short term situation, let alone long covid (which is almost beginning to look, if one squints, like rheumatic fever/heart disease – but I ain't a clinician).
I'm still not sure what you mean by normality. Are you thinking that the first big wave of omicron would pass through and then we'd return to a pre-2020 state?
To a state where the community is either vaccinated or has some natural immunity against future infection hence can start to drop the emergency measures we have now.
I think it will be a long time before we get back to a pre-2020 state.
ok, thanks. I'm not sure I've understood your position in that case.
Afaik there is no evidence yet that omicron will prompt natural immunity across the population.
There does seem to be some evidence that vaccine and exposure helps, but that has to be weighed up against the LC data, which we don't have yet for omicron.
Or we get a much more effective vaccine. I have no idea how likely that is given most countries are engaged in responses that promote new variants.
I think full normality won't return for awhile for a number of reasons.
Probably one of the big ones is that travel insurance companies will have to feel confident that the can cover Covid in their policies. Until then it is going to be very dodgy to travel overseas.
Once we have a vaccine similar to the flu vaccine that is updated every year, we will probably be back to full normality. It wouldn't surprise me if it becomes an all-in-one jab. So, both for Covid and the general flu.
The UK's covid infection statistics began to add reinfection data. Since the omicron wave, the reinfection rate has increased from less than 1% in the past to 10% of the total number of infections.
2004: Foreshore & Seabed Hikoi (huge, peaceful, and able to build broad support). Maori Party formed.
2005: Maori Party win seats, enter Parliament.
2008: Maori Party gain Ministerial portfolios. John Key's government scrap F&S Act.
Now, it's certainly debatable whether TPM subsequently got as much as they could have, from 2008-17. But that's not the issue here.
The point is, they successfully moved from protest to lawmaking.
If the protesters at Parliament are correct and they do have widespread public support (specifically on the mandates) then it should not be too hard to get 5% of the vote.
If they really feel that freedom is under threat, and a fundamental principle is at stake, just as the F & S protesters did, then they should organise and test their support at the ballot box. They already know that no party in Parliament is going to take up their cause, so like Turia and Labour, there is no point working within a party that totally rejects (even despises) them.
The risk, of course, is that when you stand for election, there's a rude awakening. Unlike an online echo chamber, you find out how many supporters you really have.
But with all their alleged "support from ordinary Kiwis", that's a risk worth taking, isn't it?
The larger parties arre trying to avoid any connection to them (despite the occasional useless MP) because they could lose 10% to gain that 3-5% or whatever. If you have voters to lose, the extreme fringe is more costly than it's worth.
But if you have very few voters and not a huge amount of principles against that fringe… why not make that gamble?
Observer, excuse my ignorance but can you tell me the understanding of both parties to the state of the ownership of the Foreshore and Seabed. I do remember Peter Dunne and Nick Smith knee deep in water in Nelson somewhere demanding that the crown do not cede control of the f/s. (Then there was the Iwi/Kiwi campaign from Orewa. It forced the Labour government to act.) The Maori party formed. They eventually got an accommodation with the National/ACT coalition. And you say the F/S act was repealed, so what were the gains for Tangata Whenua out of all of it. Just a repeal of the act. Thus where do the two partners to the Treaty stand on this now. Muddied waters?
From the outside, I'd say the gains were less than they should have been, Sharples and Turia did not rock the boat enough. But that's for the Maori Party voters to decide, not me (they rejected the party in 2017, but of course they are back now).
So … no responses from any commenters here who support the protesters, or at least want to present them in a positive light.
There is no long-term plan at all, is there? The government won't change its position (you must have worked that out by now) and you're not willing to try and change the government (by standing at the election).
That's what protests set out to do: change the current policy, or replace the policy-makers. Politicians change their policies because they want votes (it beggars belief that this has to be explained to you, but you do seem to live in an alternative reality).
Groundswell have a clear goal: Labour out, National in (not explicit, but obvious). On the other side, so do climate change protesters: pressure on Labour and the Greens, based on polls which show widespread support for stronger action on climate change.
I ask again: if this matters so much, what is the end-game? Having a party in the rain?
So fed up with people here sympathising with the selfish, rude, loud, trouble making, obnoxious protesters. The protesters have zero concern for anyone else's rights, (but go on endlessly about their rights) or other people's ability to go about their daily life without hindrance. They are causing major damage to parliamentary property, but could not care less. If a bedraggled bunch of lawbreakers damaged their property or belongings they would be the first to squeal and loudly. They are breaking numerous laws and local body laws by parking anywhere, everywhere from footpaths to blocking access ways. And don't give a damn.
Their lack of reasoning and common sense and being so easily manipulated is a sad burden on the rest of society. They don't deserve to be treated by medical staff when/if they get Covid. But those same medical people will have to look after these and turn a blind eye to their idiocy.
… and the small crowd being entertained by the "bike-burn-out" producing toxic fumes for them to inhale (one of them with cigarette in hand). I wonder if she was there protesting "they ain't gonna put no dangerous poisons into my body, No Way!"
I did read your comment, and Reality's. My point is that it is so easy, and wrong, to focus on a small group enjoying arseholish behaviour whilst ignoring the the vast majority being respectful and polite.
Now, I guess you're enjoying Mallard's latest stunt?
Stop trying to bullshit us. We've all watched the live footage. Every time someone performs an arsehole act the rest of the crowd cheers and claps. As for Mallard's latest stunt… at least he's trying to do something. The police are just pussy footing around as far as I can see.
Godalmighty Anne…you'd have the cops drive them out boots and all after what went down on Tuesday? Where's the kindness? Nevermind the optics.
Bring your knitting.
Catch up Anne…the rest of the world is moving on. Do the decent thing and stop making it all about the elderly and vulnerable. You've had your shots, you wear the mask du jour….settle down and let the young folk get on with their lives.
I did not represent them all as misbehaving or arseholes. I made the observation that a majority – in some instances – have applauded the misbehaviour. Eg. the jeering and insults directed at the constables on duty. Its certain some of them will have disapprpoved in which case I hope they have removed themselves from the scene.
Musk and his fanboys deserve neuro-linking to their fucking cars.
Neuralink’s brain chips — which Musk claims will one day make humans hyper-intelligent and let paralyzed people walk again — were implanted in monkeys’ brains during a series of tests at the University of California, Davis from 2017 to 2020, according to a compliant from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine filed with the the US Department of Agriculture on Thursday.
In one example, a monkey was allegedly found missing some of its fingers and toes “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma.” The monkey was later killed during a “terminal procedure,” the group said in a copy of the complaint shared with The Post.
In another case, a monkey had holes drilled in its skull and electrodes implanted into its brain, then allegedly developed a bloody skin infection and had to be euthanized, according to the complaint.
[…]
“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” Jeremy Beckham, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine’s research advocacy director, told The Post. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.”
The macabre report comes as Neuralink plans to begin its first human tests. Musk said in December that he wants to start human trials for the devices in 2022 and the company posted a job listing for a clinical trial director this January.
Lotsa people going to find out just how effective their immune system is.
It gets worse. Anyone yesterday that was sitting in a circle yesterday morning with a female snuffling and a little tickle cough,her name is Amanda aka Mandy has had her covid test back she took from 2 days ago in Tga.. positive test. She has text her mum from Wgtn. grrrrrrr
Crikey, that's some heavy precipitation. The wind is getting up, too. The only thing making it bearable is the temperature. That may change with the chill factor?
12C from midday tomorrow until Monday morning. That's not fun when wet and it's windy. Doable if they’re organised, but the potential for covid spread is worse (or getting sick generally)
Just read a credible sounding piece on twitter where a young woman sitting in the practice defensive circle had a cough and a tickle throat and was awaiting a test result. It came through as positive.
So assuming it to be true, there will be many cross infections.
Yes, that crowd better be up to date with their Vit D, Vit C (lypo-spheric form), Zinc and Colloidal Sliver. And maybe have their fingers crossed.
Also Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are two other placebos they should have on hand.
If this were the States from whence most of the anti vaxx dis- & mis-information is coming from on social media, it is useful to have an army of people sending prayers covering all medical procedures once these occur. Of course, not just any prayers are useful, only those to an evangelical & possibly TV based preacher to God with $$$$ lubrication are really useful.
The rain is bucketing down here. Very heavy. I really hope the leadership is sensible. Nothing is worth being sick from exposure from.
Anyone seen an explanation (from police or someone who knows what they are talking about) as to why the police haven't stopped people coming into the camp, or bringing in supplies like tents? Yes, it's going to rain heavily and get colder overnight, but those that tough it out will hold the place and then others can come back tomorrow with supplies and numbers.
They've bolstered the barriers on the forecourt and to the side of Parliament because apparently protesters were coming on site behind them from Hill Street, but apart from that, seems she's wide open.
if I put the covid risk to the community aside, this is actually good. They're letting the protest happen and they're doing what they need to to protect parliament itself.
A protester casually walked alongside the orange barriers, flicked out the joining peg and picked up the whole block easily just off the ground and wandered on to the next one.
I thought those orange blocks were very heavy but they are no way to stop anyone.
The fences aren't very high. It's always been an open site where Wgtns could go and have lunch on a sunny day as well. There's a playground for the kids. Unfortunately all I think this is going to do is make it become a fortress because this crap can't happen again.
The glacial approach to sending them packing has aided their cause immeasurably. The govt. is basically letting a Tea Party build itself on its front lawn.
Kettling (also known as containment or corralling)[1] is a policetactic for controlling large crowds during demonstrations or protests. It involves the formation of large cordons of police officers who then move to contain a crowd within a limited area. Protesters either leave through an exit controlled by the police, leave through an uncontrolled gap in the cordons, or are contained, prevented from leaving, and arrested.
But they're not containing them that's the point. They are protecting Parliament buildings but the frontages to Molesworth Street and I guess Lambton Quay do not seem to have any police presence. From the live feed people are coming and going as they please.
The police never put all their cards on the table and nor would I expect them to but considering the situation has any news media asked them why they have not contained the protest site?
only thing I've seen is a brief mention that the police aren't just letting the protest runs it course, or some such. I haven't been following comprehensively though. Prob on Stuff or RNZ.
Wellington Mayor Andy Foster said there were a “significant number” of people who had joined the protest in the past day, but it was unclear whether they would stay.
“There's been quite a number of people contacting me saying, 'Oh, just move them'. I don't think they have contemplated for a moment how many vehicles there are, and how challenging that might be, and also what the protesters might do to frustrate that.”
Just picked this up off the newsfeeds – a volunteer firefighter at Winton has tested positive for Covid, and the whole fire dept is shut down and in self-isolation.
How sustainable is this kind of isolation for emergency workers going to be? ATM the nearest fire response would be Invercargill – about 30mins away (and a good deal longer if the call was out of Winton to the north).
There's the real potential for lives to be lost.
This is the kind of situation where I believe RATs need to be deployed, rather than quarantining people who turn out not to have Covid.
The essential services should be able to get swabs and perhaps self-isolate together in the emergency depot. RATs are quicker but not as effective. Is that how the system works?
The Parliament anti…..vaxxer (well they are a mixed nut selection ) protestors are dumbfounded/dumbasses, double bunked with some TRULY dangerous people.
"Only the crumbliest, flakiest"…… no chocolate at all !
Is chocolate the secret weapon? Perhaps that would be a way for needle-shy people to take vaccinations? Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine god down dah dah.
Trevor Mallard's escalation is profoundly stupid, of course. Best to completely ignore the muppets, even if they're there for weeks.
(I do actually suspect a majority of New Zealand would secretly like to channel their inner Muldoon here, but the key is not to turn the muppets into martyrs).
Fine line here though… leaving them here for ages holding up transport links, teasing mask wearing students and being unpleasant and arguing the toss about mask wearing at the local supermarket are likely to arouse the inner Muldoon as you say rather than support.
His escalation may be silly but then many would think the actions by the protestors have set the tone. Getting through this to negotiate when the leaders may have different agendas may be difficult.
Someone needs to send Mallard home and tell him to stfu. According to Stuff hes just said that the protest is run by neo nazis… he's making it infinitely worse…
TBF it is quite funny watching him dig himself his own political career grave given how much people on here stuck up for him with his biased performances as Speaker and Ardern human shield at question times. Lol
How bout the time he as Race Relations minister accused Tariana Turia of encouraging Maori youth to get pregnant as a part of master plan to take over New Zealand.
Basically hes a hot headed bully when things dont go his way. Absolutely the wrong person to be pulling the strings in a situation like this. He's a disgrace.
I don't think they do actually. Part of the speakers role is security of all the buildings and grounds, and he was picked by Labour.
Can't help thinking it will come back and bite Ardern in the arse though, given it is pretty much exactly one year since Labour over-turned the Nats forced vote on non-confidence of his performance.
Interesting to watch though.
If you like watching train wrecks.
Edit:Sorry. Should have been clearer. Think it would take a vote of no confidence.
And ATM the Nats won’t do it as they are probably laughing their arses off. Ardern is in a seriously difficult position of turning the last one on him down, while also if she did it, it would mean basically saying she made a massive mistake publicly, which the Nats would pounce on.
She is kind of in a lose lose position from what I can see.
Counterspin has been providing the commentary to these on the ground for a couple of days now. The more moderate (ha ha relatively) original organisers faded out very soon after they arrived in Wellington. These happenings have been well publicised in the last couple of days.
Phillip Arps, Kelvyn Alp and Brett Power are/will be/have been involved.
Action Zelandia took photographs showing the back of Parliament after one of its members who was also an employee of LT McGuiness climbed a work crane. Now no longer employed. Security had to be rejigged for MPs after this was found.
PS I don’t think the Parliament sprinkler /garden stuff is covered by Wellington City’s water restrictions. I complained about four large sprinklers going at a field at a college last summer when we were heading to be chronically short of water and was told that water restrictions don’t apply to most govt entities. Most try to abide but may not be subject to specific times and days which is also the case with WCC itself.
WCC is not always the quickest one to abide by the restrictions it sets for others. Fair enough for specialist things like the botanical gardens, Zoo.
Yes there are undesirable elements involved but also many who are ordinary Kiwis. What's happening at the moment is just entrenching positions. If Mallard continues as he is I'm gonna drive down and join in…
The myth of the ordinary Kiwi. They don't exist. NZers may have certain characteristics that set apart us as a nation from others but mythmaking about 'ordinary kiwis' does not help.
The people are not like you, me or the people next door….they have deliberately chosen an anti health way forward. They have put 'me' before 'us'.
Sure mandates will end just as border restrictions will end. We have a timeline for the borders. Perhaps we need to say the mandates will be lifted in October unless we can lift them earlier.
But really until we see the measure of Omicron we are flying blind. But the protestors have been tone deaf to think that at the time when NZ is facing a huge huge challenge from Omicron (that has not reached us yet) that this was the time to give away all health measures…..the height of stupidity.
Sure we may have to negotiate to get them to go but please don't fool ourselves by thinking they are the mythical ordinary Kiwis. This is what they will be hoping – that we will be fooled by our yearning to go forward together. But we can't and it will be a stultifying NZ we live in if we do.
I hope negotiations are done in a businesslike health focussed way. They are most unordinary Kiwis from a health point of view.
So I am saying that while the protest may have the bad actors I have mentioned plus others such as Destiny, Sue Grey and Liz Gunn the remainder are not the mythic 'ordinary Kiwis'.
Mallard may be doing this and he is probably unwise (to us) in the scheme of things, but possibly he, like many of the other parliamentarians, believes that they are actually not the mythical ordinary kiwis and negotiations should not proceed as if they are.
Be kind to old men and all oldies should do a memory test every six months, I wonder if he can bring on hypertension just thinking about protesters and empty cans lying on the lawn. He is probably just waiting for a space in some flash retirement home with pools, bells and whistles. Nice for those who like that sort of thing. Or maybe he is a horse lover and has graduated up to unicorns. Do they have those yet at these flash super retirement villages where the young might stick their nose up to a gate or window pane if they can.
The Global 'Freedom' Movement is a carnival of crank and conspiracy – and very dangerous and counts NZ in the countries where
"“Freedom” protests similar in form and simultaneously nebulous in broadly anti-vax/anti-mandate political goals have materialised in Britain, France and New Zealand."
The inability to work out what these similar groups are really on about is deliberate and world wide. When aims are so opaque we must wonder. Why?
Completed reads for January Lilith, by George MacDonald The Rime of the Ancient Mariner (poem), by Samuel Taylor Coleridge Christabel (poem), by Samuel Taylor Coleridge The Saga of Ragnar Lodbrok, by Anonymous The Lay of Kraka (poem), by Anonymous 1066 and All That, by W.C. Sellar and R.J. ...
Pity the poor Brits. They just can’t catch a break. After years of reporting of lying Boris Johnson, a change to a less colourful PM in Rishi Sunak has resulted in a smooth media pivot to an end-of-empire narrative. The New York Times, no less, amplifies suggestions that Blighty ...
On that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened. And rain fell on the earth.Genesis 6:11-12THE TORRENTIAL DOWNPOURS that dumped a record-breaking amount of rain on Auckland this anniversary weekend will reoccur with ever-increasing frequency. The planet’s atmosphere is ...
Buzz from the Beehive There has been plenty to keep the relevant Ministers busy in flood-stricken Auckland over the past day or two. But New Zealand, last time we looked, extends north of Auckland into Northland and south of the Bombay Hills all the way to the bottom of the ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Jeff Masters When early settlers came to the confluence of the Sacramento and American Rivers before the California Gold Rush, Indigenous people warned them that the Sacramento Valley could become an inland sea when great winter rains came. The storytellers described water filling the ...
Dr Bryce Edwards writes – Last night’s opinion polls answered the big question of whether a switch of prime minister would really be a gamechanger for election year. The 1News and Newshub polls released at 6pm gave the same response: the shift from Jacinda Ardern to Chris Hipkins ...
Last night’s opinion polls answered the big question of whether a switch of prime minister would really be a gamechanger for election year. The 1News and Newshub polls released at 6pm gave the same response: the shift from Jacinda Ardern to Chris Hipkins has changed everything, and Labour is back ...
Over the last few years, it’s seemed like city after city around the world has become subject to extreme flooding events that have been made worse by impacts from climate change. We’ve highlighted many of them in our Weekly Roundup series. Sadly, over the last few days it’s been Auckland’s ...
A ‘small target’ strategy is not going to cut it anymore if National want to win the upcoming election. The game has changed and the game plan needs to change as well. Jacinda Ardern’s abrupt departure from the 9th floor has the potential to derail what looked to be an ...
When Grant Robertson talks about how the economy might change post-covid, one of the things he talks about is what he calls an unsung but interesting white paper on science. “It’s really important,” he says. The Minister in charge of the White Paper — Te Ara Paerangi, Future Pathways ...
The news media were at one ceremony by the looks of things. The Governor-General, the Prime Minister and his deputy were at another. The news media were at a swearing-in ceremony. The country’s leaders were at an appointment ceremony. The New Zealand Gazette record of what transpired says: Appointment of ...
I n some alternative universe, Auckland mayor Efeso Collins readily grasped the scale of Friday’s deluge, and quickly made the emergency declaration that enabled central government to immediately throw its resources behind the rescue and remediation effort. As Friday evening became night, Mayor Collins seemed to be everywhere: talking with ...
They called it an “atmospheric river”, the weather bombardment which hit NZ’s northern region at the weekend. It exacted a terrible toll on metropolitan Auckland and the rest of the region. Few living there may have noted a statement from electricity generator Mercury Energy labelled “WET, WET, WET!” This was ...
I know, that is a pretty corny title but given the circumstances here in the Auckland region, I just had to say it. The more oblique reference embedded in the title is to the leadership failures exhibited by Mayor Wayne Brown and his so-called leadership team when confronted by the ...
How much confidence should the public have in authorities managing natural disasters? Not much, judging by the farcical way in which the civil defence emergence in Auckland has played out. The way authorities dealt with Auckland’s extreme weather on Friday illustrated how hit-and-miss our civil defence emergency system is. In ...
Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.The recent leadership change in the governing Labour party resulted in a very strange response from National’s (current) leader, Christopher Luxon. Mr Luxon berated Labour for it’s change of leader, citing no actual change.As ...
A chronological listing of news articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 22, 2023 thru Sat, Jan 28, 2023. Story of the Week New Study Reveals Arctic Ice, Tracked Both Above and Below, Is Freezing LaterClimate change is affecting the timing of both ...
Thanks for reading Frankly Speaking ! Subscribe for free to receive new posts and support my work.It was another ‘SHOCK! HORROR!’ headline from a media increasingly venturing into tabloid-style journalism:Andrea Vance’s article seemed to focus on the "million dollar sums from the Government as the country grapples with a housing ...
Dr Brian Easton writes: It’s the summer break. Everyone settles down with family, books, the sun and some fishing. But the Prime Minister has a pile of briefing papers prepared just before Christmas, which have to be worked through. I haven’t seen them. Here is my guess at some ...
What Was the Prime Minister Reading in the Runup to Election Year?It’s the summer break. Everyone settles down with family, books, the sun and some fishing. But the Prime Minister has a pile of briefing papers prepared just before Christmas, which have to be worked through. I haven’t seen them. ...
In case you hadn't noticed, FYI, the public OIA request site, has been used to conduct a significant excavation into New Zealand's intelligence agencies, with requests made for assorted policies and procedures. Yesterday in response to one of these requests the GCSB released its policy on New Zealand Purpose and ...
Farming leaders are watching closely whether Damien O’Connor keeps the key portfolios of Agriculture and Trade when Prime Minister Chris Hipkins restructures his Cabinet. O’Connor has been one of the few ministers during Labour’s term in office who has won broad support for what he has done ...
South Islands farmers are whining about another drought, the third in three years. If only we knew what was causing this! If only someone had warned them that they faced a drying climate! But we do know what is causing it: climate change. And they have been warned, repeatedly, for ...
Ok, there’s good news and bad news in this week’s inflation figures, but bad > good. Our inflation rate held steady but hey, at a level below the inflation rate in Australia. The main reason for the so/so result here? A fall in petrol prices of 7.2% offset the really ...
Dr Bryce Edwards writes: Since her shock resignation announcement, Jacinda Ardern has been at pains to point out that she isn’t leaving because of the toxicity directed at her on social media and elsewhere, rebutting journalists who suggested misogyny and hate may have driven her from office. Yet ...
Since her shock resignation announcement, Jacinda Ardern has been at pains to point out that she isn’t leaving because of the toxicity directed at her on social media and elsewhere, rebutting journalists who suggested misogyny and hate may have driven her from office. Yet there have been dozens of columns ...
The Clinical Magus: Of particular relevance to New Zealanders struggling to come to terms with the sudden departure of their prime minister, Jacinda Ardern, is Jung’s concept of the anima. Much more than what others have called the feminine principle, the anima is what the human male has made out ...
The Select Committee, considering the proposed RNZ-TVNZ merger, has come back with a report conceding many of the criticisms that were made of the original legislation. In what is one of the most comprehensive demolitions of a Bill submitted to a Select Committee, the Economic Development, Science and Innovation ...
Such are the 2020s, the age when no-one, it seems, actually respects the basic underpinnings of democracy. Even in New Zealand. This week, I stumbled across a pair of lengthy and genuinely serious articles, that basically argue that Something is Rotten in the state of New Zealand democracy. One ...
Buzz from the Beehive Hurrah. Today we found something fresh on the Beehive website, Beehive.govt.nz, which claims to be the best place to find Government initiatives, policies and Ministerial information. It wasn’t from Finance Minister Grant Robertson, whose reaction to the latest inflation figures would have been appreciated. So, too, ...
Smiling And Waiving A Golden Opportunity: Chris Hipkins knew that the day at Ratana would be Jacinda’s day – her final opportunity to bask in the unalloyed love and support of her followers. He simply could not afford to be seen to overshadow this last chance for his former boss ...
Extremism Consumes Itself: The plot of “Act of Oblivion” concerns the relentless pursuit of the “regicides” Edward Whalley and William Goffe – two of the fifty-nine signatories to King Charles I’s death warrant. As with his many other works of historical fiction, Robert Harris’s novel brings to life a period ...
To challenge the Government’s promotion of co-governance, to share power between Maori and public authorities and agencies, is to invite accusations of racism. An example: this article by Martyn Bradbury on The Daily Blog headed Luxon’s race baiting hypocrisy at Ratana. The article was triggered by National leader Christopher Luxon, ...
A very informative video discussion: Are we getting the whole story about Ukraine? | Robert Wright & Ivan Katchanovski Getting objective information on the situation in Ukraine and the cause of this current war is not easy. There is the current censorship and blatant mainstream media bias – which ...
Yesterday the Herald ran an op-ed from Mayor Wayne Brown titled “The case for light rail is lighter than ever” and a few things stood out. However, it’s getting more and more tricky to make a strong economic case for spending up to $29 billion on a single route of ...
This is a re-post from Yale Climate Connections by Samantha Harrington Imagine it’s a cold February night and your furnace breaks. You want to replace it with an electric heat pump because you’ve heard that tax credits will help pay for the switch. And you know that heat pumps can reduce ...
In 2005, then-National Party leader based his entire election campaign on racism, with his infamous racist Orewa speech and racist iwi/kiwi billboards. Now, Christopher Luxon seems to want to do it all again: Fresh off using his platform at this week's Rātana celebrations to criticise the government's approach to ...
Inflation is showing little sign of slowing down, posing a problem for freshly minted PM Chris Hipkins. According to that old campaigner Richard Prebble, Hipkins should call a snap election. If he waits till October, he risks being swept away. The dilemma for the new leader is that fighting an election ...
Buzz from the Beehive A great deal has happened since January 19. Among other things, a new Prime Minister and deputy have been sworn in and our leaders (past, present and aspiring) have delivered speeches at Ratana. Newshub reported that politicians of all stripes had descended upon Rātana for the ...
It’s a big day for New Zealand; our 41st Prime Minister has taken office and the new, “Chippy” era of politics is underway. Or, on the other hand, the Labour Party continues to govern with an overall majority and much the same leadership team in place. Life goes on and ...
New Zealand has another Prime Minister who does not have a basic grasp of the three articles of the Treaty of Waitangi. THOMAS CRANMER writes: It is simply astonishing that New Zealand’s next Prime Minister, Chris Hipkins, is unable to give even a brief explanation of the three articles ...
A statue of a semi-naked Nick Smith puts the misogyny debate into perspective. GRAHAM ADAMS writes … In the wake of Ardern’s abrupt resignation, the mainstream media are determined to convince us she was hounded from office mainly because she is a woman and had to fall on her sword ...
A Different Kind Of Vibe: In the days and weeks ahead, as the Hipkins ministry takes shape, the only question that matters is whether New Zealand’s new prime minister possesses both the wisdom and the courage to correct his party’s currently suicidal political course. If Chris “Chippy” Hipkins is ...
An editorial in the NZ Herald last week, titled “Nimbyism goes bananas as housing intensifies“, introduced Herald readers to a couple of acronyms that go along with the now-familiar NIMBY (Not in My Back Yard): “bananas” (build absolutely nothing anywhere near anyone) “cave” dwellers (citizens against virtually everything). The editorial ...
Back in the dark autumn of 2020, when the prospect of Covid was freaking the country out, Finance Minister Grant Robertson set himself and Treasury a series of questions about what a post-Covid economy might look like. Those were fearful days, and the questions in part reflected a series ...
Buzz from the Beehive Yet another day has passed without Ministers of the Crown posting something to show they are still working for us on the Beehive website. Nothing new has been posted since January 17. Perhaps the ministers are all engaged in the bemusing annual excursion ...
Incoming Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has already indicated he intends making the tax system “fairer”. That points to the route a government facing an election could take to tilt the odds towards winning in its favour, given Labour’s support in the last months of the Ardern era had been ...
NewsHub has a poll on the cost-of-living crisis, which has an interesting finding: the vast majority of kiwis prefer wage rises to tax cuts: When asked whether income has kept up with the cost of living, 54.8 percent of people surveyed said no and according to 58.6 percent of ...
Labour has begun 2023 with the centre-left bloc behind in the polls and losing ground. That being so, did his colleagues choose Chris Hipkins as the replacement for Jacinda Ardern because they think he has a realistic shot at leading them to victory this year, or because he‘s the best ...
Two Flags, Two Masters? Just as it required a full-scale military effort to destroy the first attempt at Māori self-government in the 1850s and 60s (an effort that divided Maoridom itself into supporters and opponents of the Crown) any second attempt to establish tino rangatiratanga, based on the confiscatory policies ...
The first of Kiwirail’s big network shutdowns to fix the foundations on our tracks is now well underway with the Southern Line closed between Otahuhu and Newmarket. This is following on from the network wide Christmas/New Year shutdown, during which Kiwirail say that nearly 1,300 people working across 69 different ...
This is a re-post from the Citizens' Climate Lobby blogIn last year’s passage of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), Congress included about $20 billion earmarked for natural climate solutions. The United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) is responsible for deciding how those funds should be allocated to meet the climate ...
You’ve really got to wonder at the introspection, or lack thereof, from much of the mainstream media post Jacinda Ardern stepping down. Some so-called journalists haven’t even taken a breath before once again putting the boot in, which clearly shows their inherent bias and lack of any misgivings about fueling ...
Over the weekend I was interviewed by a media outlet about the threats that Jacinda Ardern and her family have received while she has been PM and what can be expected now that she has resigned. I noted that the level of threat she has been exposed to is unprecedented ...
Dr Bryce Edwards writes: The days of the Labour Government being associated with middle class social liberalism look to be numbered. Soon-to-be Prime Minister Chris Hipkins and Deputy Prime Minister Carmel Sepuloni are heralding a major shift in emphasis away from the constituencies and ideologies of liberal Grey ...
A Different Kind Of Vibe: In the days and weeks ahead, as the Hipkins ministry takes shape, the only question that matters is whether New Zealand’s new prime minister possesses both the wisdom and the courage to correct his party’s currently suicidal political course. If Chris “Chippy” Hipkins is able to steer ...
The days of the Labour Government being associated with middle class social liberalism look to be numbered. Soon-to-be Prime Minister Chris Hipkins and Deputy Prime Minister Carmel Sepuloni are heralding a major shift in emphasis away from the constituencies and ideologies of liberal Grey Lynn and Wellington Central towards the ...
Following the surprise resignation of Jacinda Ardern last week, her replacement, Chis Hipkins, has said: Over the coming week, Cabinet will be making decisions on reining in some programs and projects that aren’t essential right now That messaging is similar to what Jacinda Ardern said late last year and as ...
Much of what will mark the early days of Chris Hipkins’ Prime Ministership would have happened anyway. By December, the Prime Minister and Finance Minister were making it clear the summer break and early days of this year were going to be spent on a reset of government policy. ...
Going to try to get into the blogging thing again (ha!) what with an election coming up and all that. So today I thought I'd start small and simple, by merely tackling the world's (second) richest man.I'm no fan of Elon Musk. You don't want to know why, but I'll ...
A chronological listing of news articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week: Sun, Jan 15, 2023 thru Sat, Jan 21, 2023. Story of the Week State of the climate: How the world warmed in 2022With a new year underway, most of the climate data for ...
Well, that was a disappointment. As of today, the New Zealand Labour Caucus opted for Chris Hipkins as our new Prime Minister, and I cannot help but let loose a cynical cackle. ...
Get ready for a major political reset once Chris Hipkins is sworn in as Prime Minister this week. Labour’s new leader is likely to push the Government to the right economically, and do his best to jettison the damaging perceptions that Labour has become “too woke” on social issues. Overall, ...
Things have gone sideways… and it’s only the third week of January? It was political earthquake time. For some the Prime Minister made a truly significant announcement. For others – did you have this on your bingo card? – a body double did so (sit tight, you’ll understand later, ...
The tools exist to help families with surging costs – and as costs continue to rise it is more urgent than ever that we use them, the Green Party says. ...
The Government is providing a further $1 million to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Auckland following flooding, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced today. “Cabinet today agreed that, given the severity of the event, a further $1 million contribution be made. Cabinet wishes to be proactive ...
The new Cabinet will be focused on core bread and butter issues like the cost of living, education, health, housing and keeping communities and businesses safe, Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has announced. “We need a greater focus on what’s in front of New Zealanders right now. The new Cabinet line ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins will travel to Canberra next week for an in person meeting with Australian Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese. “The trans-Tasman relationship is New Zealand’s closest and most important, and it was crucial to me that my first overseas trip as Prime Minister was to Australia,” Chris Hipkins ...
The Government is providing establishment funding of $100,000 to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Auckland following flooding, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced. “We moved quickly to make available this funding to support Aucklanders while the full extent of the damage is being assessed,” Kieran McAnulty ...
As the Mayor of Auckland has announced a state of emergency, the Government, through NEMA, is able to step up support for those affected by flooding in Auckland. “I’d urge people to follow the advice of authorities and check Auckland Emergency Management for the latest information. As always, the Government ...
Ka papā te whatitiri, Hikohiko ana te uira, wāhi rua mai ana rā runga mai o Huruiki maunga Kua hinga te māreikura o te Nota, a Titewhai Harawira Nā reira, e te kahurangi, takoto, e moe Ka mōwai koa a Whakapara, kua uhia te Tai Tokerau e te kapua pōuri ...
Carmel Sepuloni, Minister for Social Development and Employment, has activated Enhanced Taskforce Green (ETFG) in response to flooding and damaged caused by Cyclone Hale in the Tairāwhiti region. Up to $500,000 will be made available to employ job seekers to support the clean-up. We are still investigating whether other parts ...
The 2023 General Election will be held on Saturday 14 October 2023, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern announced today. “Announcing the election date early in the year provides New Zealanders with certainty and has become the practice of this Government and the previous one, and I believe is best practice,” Jacinda ...
Jacinda Ardern has announced she will step down as Prime Minister and Leader of the Labour Party. Her resignation will take effect on the appointment of a new Prime Minister. A caucus vote to elect a new Party Leader will occur in 3 days’ time on Sunday the 22nd of ...
The Government is maintaining its strong trade focus in 2023 with Trade and Agriculture Minister Damien O’Connor visiting Europe this week to discuss the role of agricultural trade in climate change and food security, WTO reform and New Zealand agricultural innovation. Damien O’Connor will travel tomorrow to Switzerland to attend the ...
The Government has extended its medium-scale classification of Cyclone Hale to the Wairarapa after assessing storm damage to the eastern coastline of the region. “We’re making up to $80,000 available to the East Coast Rural Support Trust to help farmers and growers recover from the significant damage in the region,” ...
The Government is making an initial contribution of $150,000 to the Mayoral Relief Fund to help communities in Tairāwhiti following ex-Tropical Cyclone Hale, Minister for Emergency Management Kieran McAnulty announced. “While Cyclone Hale has caused widespread heavy rain, flooding and high winds across many parts of the North Island, Tairāwhiti ...
Rural Communities Minister Damien O’Connor has classified this week’s Cyclone Hale that caused significant flood damage across the Tairāwhiti/Gisborne District as a medium-scale adverse event, unlocking Government support for farmers and growers. “We’re making up to $100,000 available to help coordinate efforts as farmers and growers recover from the heavy ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Roberts, Professor in Robotics, Queensland University of Technology frank60/Shutterstock With generative artificial intelligence (AI) systems such as ChatGPT and StableDiffusion being the talk of the town right now, it might feel like we’ve taken a giant leap closer to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Vanessa Cobham, Professor of Clinical Psychology, The University of Queensland Shutterstock Many children come down with a case of the back-to-school blues as summer slips away. Having spent the holidays staying up late and having fun with friends and family, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Martijn Boersma, Associate Professor, University of Notre Dame Australia Ten years ago, the garment industry’s worst industrial accident – the Rana Plaza collapse in Dhaka, Bangladesh – killed more than 1,100 workers and highlighted the travesty of conditions for millions of garment ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Richard Shaw, Professor of Politics, Massey University New prime minister Chris Hipkins with deputy Carmel Sepuloni.Getty Images With a cabinet reshuffle just a day after two polls showing Labour ahead again – in which he promoted more Māori MPs to the ...
What to do once the water levels recede and you’re allowed to return home. Assess the damage If you’ve safely evacuated your home from floodwaters, you’ll need to wait for Civil Defence to give you the OK to return. When you do, wear protective gear like gloves, a mask and ...
As the country’s northernmost GP, and later as the MP for the country’s northernmost Māori electorate, Bruce Gregory was the ultimate community doctor.We’re not on a road, not even a dirt road. We’re crawling through a rutted gap between sand dunes in Bruce’s ancient Land Rover. It is, to ...
The wrong tree in the right place is an ongoing conundrum for Central Otago District Council with a long-awaited compromise plan seemingly decided yesterday stalled at the 11th hour Ken Churchill has been turning up at council meetings in Alexandra with regular monotony for the past 17 months in a ...
Grant McDougall is on a literary mission Over the past 11 years, the first thing I’ve thought upon walking into a bookshop, op shop, or school fair is “Are there any orange Penguins here?” I am on a mission, which I am so near to, yet so far, from ...
The Detail's Sharon Brettkelly heads to Titirangi in west Auckland, where the damage from last Friday's record-breaking rainfall is so bad some residents don't know when they'll be able to get back into their homes. This started as a podcast about what happened when flood waters surrounded my home on ...
Greenpeace criticises a South Island university over industry-funded research. David Williams reports Canterbury’s Lincoln University took more than $1 million in research money from the fertiliser industry in 2021, a fact criticised by environmental activist group Greenpeace. The university – New Zealand’s smallest – is unapologetically a practical, land-based institution, ...
While Watercare says it will soon have the wastewater system back in working order, urban beaches are likely to be a no-go for days to come When the waters rose, Auckland’s wastewater network and treatment plants were overwhelmed by stormwater, causing numerous overflows across the city. Pump stations were flooded ...
The easy part is over for Chris Hipkins in naming his new team, now the tough policy decisions lie ahead, writes political editor Jo Moir The Prime Minister has dealt with two of his biggest and most immediate issues – the public perception of the politicians leading the local government and ...
Forestry practices need updating to meet acceptable environmental bottom linesOpinion: The cycle of environmental damage caused by plantation forestry operations must stop. It is time to reign in damaging planting and harvesting practices with a fundamental reset of the rules that govern the sector. Increasing frequencies of severe storm ...
Loading...(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A[quiz],DIV[quiz],A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question?Send Newsroom your questions. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By John Finnigan, Leader, Complex Systems Science, CSIRO ShutterstockOne of Australia’s leading climate scientists, Professor Will Steffen, died on Sunday. Steffen has been hailed as a leading climate thinker, selfless mentor and gifted communicator. He is survived by his wife ...
New Zealand’s reputation as a country mostly free from corruption in its public service and judiciary has been reaffirmed in the 2022 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index, Chief Ombudsman Peter Boshier says. But Mr Boshier ...
New Zealand is ranked second equal with Finland in the latest Corruption Perceptions Index, Denmark is now clearly at the top of the ranking. New Zealand’s score dropped one point to 87 while Denmark improved by 2 points scoring 90. This is only the third ...
Analysis: In juggling his cabinet, the new prime minister said he sought to balance stability with renewal, writes Toby Manhire.There were some massive shifts reflected in the first cabinet of Prime Minister Chris Hipkins announced this afternoon – it’s just we knew about them already. Specifically: Mt Albert MP ...
Auckland Emergency Management has issued an Emergency Mobile Alert (EMA) warning of the potential for further extremely heavy rain to hit the Auckland region tonight. The alert asks Aucklanders to act immediately if they see rising water, due to how quickly flooding can happen. They should evacuate to high ...
Ayesha Verrall will become the minister of health and moves to the front bench, taking the portfolio over from Andrew Little. Kieran McAnulty will join cabinet and take over the local government portfolio. Meanwhile, Little drops seven spots on the list, Phil Twyford is no longer a minister, and the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Adam Graycar, Professor of Public Policy, University of Adelaide Just months after Australia legislated to establish the long-anticipated National Anti-Corruption Agency, our standing is back on the rise in Transparency International’s annual Global Corruption Perceptions Index. This is a small but important ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sally Ferguson, Director, Appleton Institute, CQUniversity Australia Shutterstock After a few difficult years of lockdowns and travel restrictions, people are finally winging their way across the globe again; families are being reunited and sights are being seen. Yet the ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kim Goodwin, Lecturer, The University of Melbourne Terren Hurst on Unsplash In May, we predicted Tony Burke’s joint portfolio of workplace relations and the arts was an opportunity to address some of the challenges facing the arts and cultural sector. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Danny Kingsley, Visiting Fellow, Australian National Centre for the Public Awareness of Science, Australian National University Shutterstock Unless you’ve spent your summer on a digital detox, you’ve probably heard of ChatGPT: the latest AI chatbot taking the world by storm. ...
The Association of Salaried Medical Specialists welcomes former ASMS member Dr Ayesha Verrall into her new role as Minister of Health. "Dr Verrall brings significant professional experience sharpened by her time in Parliament serving as the Associate ...
Today the Prime Minister announced the appointment of Kieran McAnulty as the new Minister of Local Government. “We welcome Minister McAnulty to the role and call on him to follow the Review into the Future of Local Government’s recommendation ...
The Taxpayer’s Union has welcomed the appointment of a new Minister for Local Government and encouraged Kieran McAnulty to press pause on the Three Waters reforms. Taxpayers’ Union Campaigns Manager, Callum Purves, said: “A new Minister for ...
COMMENTARY:By Gavin Ellis It is unlikely that the Mayor of Auckland, Wayne Brown, took any lessons from the city’s devastating floods but the rest of us — and journalists in particular — could learn a thing or two. Brown’s demeanour will not be improved by a petition calling for ...
RNZ Pacific The headquarters of the Malvatumauri of National Council of Chiefs of Vanuatu has burned down. The fire broke out about 1am Monday local time. Police are investigating the cause of the fire in Port Vila. The Malvatumauri nakamal is a custom parliament for all Vanuatu’s chiefs. “This nakamal ...
Auckland mayor Wayne Brown is under fire for calling New Zealand journalists “drongos”, blaming them for having to cancel a round of tennis with friends on Sunday as the city dealt with the aftermath of record rainfall and flooding that left four dead. It comes after widespread criticism of ...
Things are acutely uncomfortable for Auckland Mayor Wayne Brown right now, but can he recover to save his mayoralty? Less than a month after Wayne Brown was sworn in as Mayor of Auckland, a leading figure in central government was asked privately how the city might handle this unconventional figure ...
The New Zealand Nurses Organisation Tōpūtanga Tapuhi Kaitiaki o Aotearoa (NZNO) welcomes Hon Dr Ayesha Verrall to the Minister of Health role. NZNO Chief Executive Paul Goulter said the organisation and its members are looking forward to working ...
Prime Minister Chris Hipkins has announced Jan Tinetti, Ayesha Verrall, Willie Jackson and Kiri Allan are being shifted up the Labour rankings, with Nanaia Mahuta and Andrew Little dropping down. Watch here. ...
Jamie Wall reviews Invincible by WJ Moloney, which covers Andrew (Son) White’s life and experiences of World War I, rugby and survival.“He saw it, and all the other memorials, was conceived and created for what was lost, by those who survived. Stark and imposing, thoughtfully designed and inscribed with ...
Prime minister Chris Hipkins will travel to Canberra next week to meet with Australian PM Anthony Albanese. “The trans-Tasman relationship is New Zealand’s closest and most important, and it was crucial to me that my first overseas trip as Prime Minister was to Australia,” Chris Hipkins said. The meeting marks ...
A state of emergency has been declared in Northland as the region braces for more rain. Metservice is forecasting up to 140mm of rain across Northland, with some areas in the north and east getting 220mm, peaking at 40mm per hour. The state of emergency is effective as of 1pm ...
Never thought you’d order Uber Eats from the Coffee Club? You might have and not even known it, writes Sam Brooks.I spend a lot of my time scrolling through the Uber Eats app. Only half of the time is it because I’m looking for something to eat. The other ...
Consumers have been warned to prepare for fruit and vegetable shortages as floodwaters in the upper North Island impact food safety. The weekend’s flooding will exacerbate supply issues caused by rainy conditions this summer in much of the country, leading to higher prices nationwide. Anne-Marie Arts of industry group United ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Kate Fitz-Gibbon, Director, Monash Gender and Family Violence Prevention Centre; Professor of Social Sciences, Faculty of Arts, Monash University In 2016, the Victorian Royal Commission into Family Violence released its findings following an exhaustive 13-month inquiry. In it were 227 recommendations to ...
In recognition of Te Tiriti o Waitangi, the Problem Gambling Foundation will launch a new wānanga series of online videos on Waitangi Day, featuring conversations with Māori influencers about the systemic injustices experienced by Māori including ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Eliza Middleton, Biodiversity Management Officer, University of Sydney Overall winner of the 2018 competition, a Growling Grass Frog (_Litoria raniformis_) by EnviroDNA @enviro_DNA@enviro_DNA, CC BY-NC Almost 2,000 native species are officiallylisted as “threatened” in Australia – but how many have ...
Youthtown is launching [email protected] with two online after school programs aimed at giving kids a safe and supervised environment. Minecraft Monday and Imagination Lab - STEAM Kits are hosted in secure online groups that enable children to get a ...
The more hard surfaces we build, the more stormwater we need to drain. Here’s how we can future-proof our urban design as climate change bites. We’ve built our cities to be vulnerable to – and exacerbate – major weather events such as the one we saw in Auckland on Friday. ...
The soaring cost of living is fuelling an education crisis for New Zealand children living in poverty. To coincide with the start of the new school year, KidsCan is launching its 2023 Back to School campaign with the aim to bring on board 450 new ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Nina Sivertsen, Senior Lecturer (Nursing), Flinders University Getty Images It’s good practice for employers to consult staff when forming policies or guidelines. However, for some staff from diverse backgrounds, this creates extra work and pressure. “Cultural load” in the ...
The New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union has launched a petition calling for schools to have the authority to make their own decisions about emergency closures based on local circumstances rather than be beholden to bureaucrats in Wellington. Taxpayers’ ...
Duncan Greive founded The Spinoff in 2014. Today he has decided to hand the torch to his colleague and friend Amber Easby. He explains why.I swear I thought of it first. Or at least, in parallel. I remember walking up the stairs to work on January 9, and for ...
Today’s launch of Waipuna aa rangi, the formal body set to represent hapū and iwi across Te Tai Tokerau and Tāmaki Makaurau in the Three Waters reforms, has been postponed by the ongoing extreme weather event. “The latest red warning for parts ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Clare Collins, Laureate Professor in Nutrition and Dietetics AO, University of Newcastle Pexels/Anna Shvets Ever feel a bit stressed or need a concentration boost? Research suggests one remedy may be right under your nose. Chewing has benefits for brain function, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Danny C Price, Senior research fellow, Curtin University Midjourney, Author provided Some 540 million years ago, diverse life forms suddenly began to emerge from the muddy ocean floors of planet Earth. This period is known as the Cambrian Explosion, and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Camilla Nelson, EG Whitlam Research Fellow at the Whitlam Institute, and Associate Professor, University of Notre Dame Australia April Fonti/AAP There is much to be excited about in Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus’s draft Family Law Amendment Bill 2023, the first in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michael Naylor, Senior Lecturer, Massey University Getty Images The clean-up from Auckland’s devastating floods last week is just beginning but insurance companies will need to start thinking about what the record-breaking weather event will mean for future coverage. Over ...
A coalition of anti-poverty and welfare advocacy groups has called for urgent government action to support people affected by flooding in Auckland, Coromandel, Bay of Plenty, and Waikato. The Fairer Future group - which called for increases in income support ...
<img src="https://img.scoop.co.nz/stories/images/2301/634c21cb071ff0232051.jpeg" width="720" height="221"> “Raising the legal age for buying cigarettes to 20 is a good move, but effectively banning e-cigarettes is disappointing ...
Hospital waiting lists grow Chris Hipkins is expected to announce his cabinet reshuffle today. There’s been some speculation that Andrew Little may lose the health portfolio to Ayesha Verrall. As Stuff’s Bridie Witton reported, Little said he was happy to stick it out as the health minister. ...
In the December 2022 quarter, 0.4 percent of home transfers were to people who didn’t hold New Zealand citizenship or a resident visa, Stats NZ said today. This compares with 0.4 percent in the December 2021 quarter, and 0.5 percent in the September 2022 ...
New Zealand is well behind the rest of the world when it comes to transferring money between banks. Shane Marsh and James McEniery discovered this when they were living in Singapore and started Aotearoa’s first real time payment mobile wallet. They aim to bring banking in New Zealand into the ...
MetService satellite imaging shows a deepening low moving towards New Zealand. It’s expected to bring more heavy rain to areas already impacted by the record-breaking rainfall on Friday that caused severe flooding in Auckland. Red and orange heavy rain warnings have been issued. Red warnings are issued when rain is ...
Our uniforms are overpriced and so packed with plastics they’ll outlive our great-great-grandchildren, write the student journalists of Balmoral Intermediate. Last year, Balmoral Intermediate’s student-run newspaper Kawepūrongo released a multi-part investigation into their polyester-packed school uniforms. The first instalment, titled “What Really Goes Into Our Uniform?” was initially sparked by ...
The Independent Police Conduct Authority has found that a Police dog handler’s decision to command his dog to restrain two young people while arresting them for attempting to steal a car was a justified, necessary and proportionate response in ...
While the upper North Island braces for more heavy rain, Auckland mayor Wayne Brown remains adamant he’s not resigning as a new text message about “media drongos” sent by Brown comes to light, writes Anna Rawhiti-Connell in this excerpt from The Bulletin, The Spinoff’s morning news round-up. To receive The ...
The Environmental Defence Society says that the National Environmental Standards for Plantation Forestry (NES-PF) are failing to protect the coastal marine environment from the significant adverse effects of sedimentation associated with plantation ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Danny C Price, Senior research fellow, Curtin University Midjourney, Author provided Some 540 million years ago, diverse life forms suddenly began to emerge from the muddy ocean floors of planet Earth. This period is known as the Cambrian Explosion, and ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Hugh Davies, Research Associate, Charles Darwin University The world’s largest wild population of water buffalo now roam Australia. As does the largest wild herd of camels. We have millions of feral goats and deer. For these introduced species, Australia is a paradise. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Juliana Segura-Salazar, Research Fellow, The University of Queensland Planetary Resources We know the world must move to cleaner energy sources to head off the worst effects of climate change, but the technology required for the transition is very mineral-intensive. So ...
Two new polls put Labour under Chris Hipkins suddenly ahead of Chris Luxon’s National. Toby Manhire assesses some strikingly similar numbers. Come on now. The news in New Zealand is meant to yawn gently out of bed in January. A sprinkling of set-pieces, scene setting and sloganeering, that’s all. But ...
Someones not happy:
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127748782/covid19-response-minister-chris-hipkins-presented-a-vaccine-rollout-plan-that-was-millions-of-doses-out-of-whack
and
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300511420/things-we-didnt-learn-this-week
For pity's sake, move on.
It only came out now because they were trying to cover it up all this time.
Are you happy to be lied to? And let them get away with it?
What if it were National? Still think it's ok?
I just don't think it's important. I remember the incident and it was covered quite well at the time, it being a confusing presentation of data, etc.
We're 95% vaccinated now and just 53 people have lost their lives due to Covid infection.
Job well done so far, I'd say.
Well, clearly others do. So best you keep out the way then as it means little to you.
Given the timing, there was a huge amount happening, this was a minor mis-communication compared with sorting out vaccines (were they approved at that stage? – we do know that Aus and NZ had difficulty ordering because of our low death rates) and maintaining confidence that all that could be done was being done. For what it is worth I think they did the right thing in burying such a minor issue at that time.
I've not been fearful of COVID-19 infection since being double vaxxed – getting a booster for extra protection against Omicron was a plus. So grateful for the public health measures designed to protect all Kiwis during this pandemic.
Unite against
COVID-19
https://covid19.govt.nz
It’s difficult to have much sympathy for the remaining 'protesters', once you see the lengths they’ll go to to get what they want. Analogies everywhere.
Whoops – link:
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hijacked-the-inside-story-of-how-nzs-convoy-lost-its-rudder
No, it wasn't a 'confusing presentation of data'. The Ministry said this "“[The chart] was illustrative and did not have raw data behind it, but was developed through officials’ understanding of roll-out campaigns, rather than any particular dataset,”"
And then there's this:
"Even with the naked eye, it was clear the chart had second doses starting before any first doses. These don’t seem like the kinds of errors you would associate with a planning process that had been “worked through very carefully”, as Hipkins had claimed."
But here's the kicker…the ministry (and I'm pointing the finger right at Hipkins here) had to be told by the Ombudsman to fess up:
"This week, nearly a year after that pen made its decisive stroke across a ministry whiteboard, Stuff received a spreadsheet – the retroactively-created data set. It shows, when compared to the data Stuff was able to reconstruct, that the graph was incorrect by millions of doses. This error was never officially corrected."
Too many PR experts employed perhaps?
Then that particular naked eye is wrong. The first dose is the cross-hatch and the cross-hatch starts first on the graph.
[lprent: Corrected the width. Generally set image widths at about 550 ]
One of the problems was that it was not a graph suitable to be reduced and rendered on a webpage.
https://static3.stuff.co.nz/covid-19-vaccine-illustration-vo-84cc8c2c.jpg
Not quite sure what you did there, but I fixed it. Generally you can add width="100%" inside the end of the tag closing, but for some reason that didn't work.
I grabbed the image off the first Stuff link, please let me know if it's the right one or not.
Here's what I inserted into your comment
< img alt=”” src=”https://static3.stuff.co.nz/covid-19-vaccine-illustration-vo-84cc8c2c.jpg” width=”100%” />
No, I wanted the version I had that clearly showed that the cross-hatch, “first dose”, started first.
is that right now?
yep
you can delete our correspondence about it
I think Lynn just made the same mistake I did (thinking the image was overwide)
Yeah I did. It'd obviously been clipped, and teh comment did
It is easiest when you have something that is large to just set the width to 100% or 550px. Then add a link to the original. You can do all of this in the image dialog for the comments. Just comment to click to see the full thing.
Then if people want to see the whole thing they can just click it. Adding an original page link helps a lot too. So does actually saying what you're talking about. Like 'look at feburary and march' the first dose (hatched) was administered first and the second dose was doing catchup.
If your interpretation is correct, the second dose overtakes the cross hatch, or first dose. A physical impossibility, surely?
The criticism of the error, and the lack of transparency, is the main point. For a government agency to take a year to provide supporting data for a graph that bore their own branding, and only then at the intervention of the Ombudsman, is unacceptable.
The rate of second doses can overtake the rate of first doses for awhile if first doses start first. It's like clearing a backlog. Generally, you'd expect the rate of second doses to be greater than the rate of first doses, at the same point in time and until the backlog clears, because early adopters are more likely (and have a higher need) to complete. The early adopters here were the most at risk workers.
Your interpretation of the graph relies on the second dose numbers exceeding those of the first dose over a prolonged period of time. Not just for a few days. And, that that begins to occur relatively soon after the second doses begin. Neither is plausible.
I agree that the graph is not correct (e.g. the y-axis scale is screwed) but it's not nearly as wrong as people make it out to be. And the heading on the graph says "Illustration of volumes and timings of rollout". It's clearly meant as an illustration not as an absolute plan.
"but it's not nearly as wrong as people make it out to be."
I disagree, but that wasn't my original point. Why couldn't the Ministry have corrected any errors or misconceptions about the graph and accompanying data straight away? And without the journo's having to go to the Ombudsman? This is the same playbook Auckland Council seem to be working from.
If it was National would you think it was important?
Only as an indication of how utterly worthless National is – everything they do is trivial, often malicious, and generally corrupt. How they dare to pretend to be part of a modern democracy is hard to fathom – they have no policy to speak of, no understanding of economics (they passed off real estate inflation as growth for the last three decades for chrissakes!)
You might want to consider how important it is to exhume trivial errors early in the Covid response, instead of developing a cogent and comprehensive manifesto of policies that would actually improve NZ. Too hard? Everything is for National, and that's why they're unfit to be in Parliament, much less to govern.
imo, no, I would be more concerned about the countless deaths and an overwhelmed health system. Fortunately National is not in power and NZ, not only has a highly vaccinated population, it also has one of the lowest Covid19 related deaths in the OECD. Would have thought that mattered more than a illustration of a year ago.
not now Jester no. I would look back on it as use it as an example of the muddled thinking and lack of a covid plan from National. But there are more examples I could use.
As for the graph itself, it makes no sense to me so looks a bit muddled. If that was the pinnacle of the governments vaccine plan we would be living in a disaster. thankfully one nonsensical graph has little correlation to how thr vaccine roll out has progressed and turned out. The vaccine roll out has not been perfect and has had some mistakes but over all pretty successful.
I disagree.
It is important.
It exposes this government as having no integrity; no interest in telling the truth (btw I imagine Hipkins presented the so called graph from the 'podium of truth' – what devastating irony), and willing to manipulate the public to its own ends.
Exposure of this pathetic piece of propaganda gives us all a clear insight into the moral bankruptcy of Hipkins and the rest of the government.
And more this morning on those RAT tests:
"While the Government spent much of this week claiming it had not been stealing businesses' rapid antigen tests, the companies supplying those tests to the Government were telling businesses the opposite. The Herald has confirmed that a minimum of 15 emails from two companies supplying Abbott tests were sent to businesses telling them the Government was diverting all test stock to itself. New Zealand’s other major RAT supplier, Roche, has also said it told customers the Government had requested its orders be prioritised, although a formal prioritisation request was never made.
Someone's telling porkies. I wonder who?
Who gives a rats..arse?
You don't care that the government may have been lieing through their teeth?
No one like lies quite like National supporters like lies.
https://thestandard.org.nz/the-great-big-list-of-john-keys-big-fat-lies-updated/
Oh yes, they all lie. Didn't this government promise to be the most open and transparent government NZ has seen?
you could tell when Key was lying during a live interview. The kiwirail and the Lord Ashcroft interviews his body language showed he was being shifty and evasive and had things he wanted to hide. that shifty look in his eyes.
You would if National did it!
"Roche issued a statement to media on Tuesday night saying none of its stocks had been diverted or seized by the Government"
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/300513418/covid19-nz-rat-manufacturer-says-government-got-tests-first-because-it-ordered-them-first-no-supplies-diverted
Yes that statement appears to contradict what they said they are telling customers. Some of those customers are now leaking to the Herald, so this will be fun.
For all we know, those "customers" could be lying.
Sure. All 15 of them.
Very well could be, particularly if they have a political agenda.
All 15 of them
Like I said, particularly if they have a political agenda.
Yet NZ, not only has a highly vaccinated population, it also has one of the lowest Covid19 related deaths in the OECD. Would have thought that mattered more than a illustration of a year ago.
It's not just about the illustration. It's about deliberate obfuscation, and whether or not we are prepared to accept it. There is a growing body of evidence that government is taking the piss.
The facts stated previously would suggest otherwise, the graph is illustrative based on "expected delivery and uptake" targets were met were they not? even exceeded.
You obviously missed my post above….so to repeat…please explain how the number of people receiving a second jab can exceed the number receiving their first jab over a prolonged period.
"The facts stated previously would suggest otherwise"
What ‘facts’? Let me lay out for you the level of evasion the Ministry has gone to to hide this:
"A few days after that, on March 24, the ministry did reverse engineer some numbers. How do we know this? When our request for the data that we assumed sat behind the “graph” was declined, we appealed to the Ombudsman. It is, we argued, impossible to have a graph that displays the number of doses on one axis and the date on the other without data that matches the image. The Ombudsman, in a December 2021 ruling, basically agreed. Following preliminary inquiries, it [the Ministry] has explained that a graphic designer was essentially commissioned to draw the graph freehand on a whiteboard, based on other online data,” they said. “The Ministry advised my Office that there was some data retrospectively created.”
Why did the Ministry ‘reverse engineer’ the numbers?
Why did the Ministry not release the figures until forced to?
But having now come up with some numbers, the ministry set about doing everything it could to keep them from the public. In June 2021, RNZ revealed efforts from within the ministry to block any data associated with the chart from being made public. Emails from ministry officials discussed claiming the data was "commercially sensitive" or that it did not exist. Officials also raised concerns about the statistical validity of the data.
Again, why the secrecy? And why are they publishing material over which the officials question the 'statistical validity'?
In the end, the ministry was forced to surrender. In its December ruling, the Ombudsman's office said the ministry had acted unreasonably by refusing Stuff's Official Information Act request when a dataset depicting the roll-out was held by the agency. This week, nearly a year after that pen made its decisive stroke across a ministry whiteboard, Stuff received a spreadsheet – the retroactively-created data set. It shows, when compared to the data Stuff was able to reconstruct, that the graph was incorrect by millions of doses. This error was never officially corrected. The ministry was unable to respond to a request for comment about this story before deadline.
No f'ing wonder they were so obstructive.
The facts, stats already mentioned in previous posts makes a year old illustration moot, irrelevant.
No facts, no stats, make the level of obfuscation evident moot. Unless you are accepting an extremely low bar?
I mentioned the facts that rendered a year old illustration irrelevant. Your dismissal doesn't change that.
"I mentioned the facts that rendered a year old illustration irrelevant. "
There are no facts that make it 'irrelevant'. The graph is flawed, the data was flaky, and the Ministry spent a year trying to hide it.
The facts you're in denial of.
The 'facts' that are irrelevant to the obfuscation.
Facts are relevant.
shoot Grantoc, if you believe that amounts to "moral bankruptcy of Hipkins and the rest of the government", you must need to wash your eyes in bleach if you cast your gaze to the opposition sitting across the house
Now that's incompetence. And it can't be blamed on any protesters. 🙂
Now if we had a statesman, or stateswoman, leading this country, they would have no hesitation in fronting the public and sincerely apologising. Alas, this Government doesn’t have such a person.
This follows on from another Stuff piece this week about the public service, and of course Andrea Vance's piece last year.
Nothing like a pandemic to reveal the absolute crazy underbelly of NZ.
John Ansell did the Kiwi/Iwi campaign for Don Brash. Water finds its level.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece
In the old days, reporters would simply report the news. Now they've inserted themselves into the news and are actively creating it. At the same time, the quality of news reporting has declined. Opinions aren't news.
Charlie Mitchel is an excellent journalist. Superb research (he watched hour of the crazies' TV channel) and largely well structured writing.
How to interview a crowd of idiots without inserting yourself? He went in there despite threats against him and his colleagues. Have a think about that for a moment.
Charlie Mitchel is an excellent journalist.
He'll be so pleased to have a fan.
Well, he is, there's no doubt about that. Read his work on the environment, particularly waterways and land tenure in the South Island.
The piece above is an important and pretty dispassionate look at what is making the protesters tick.
No-one else has come close so far.
Was Charlie just covering Kelvin's coverage or what's actually going on?
Alternatively, nothing like a WEF reset to reveal how dumb some people are.
The Fourth Industrial Revolution is about changing you.
I've been on the frontline of protest and I've been watching this one closely before commenting, but here's my 2 cents worth.
The single biggest mistake the government and other critics of the protestors have made is to dismiss them. Yes this protest has attracted a disparate group of people with a range of grievances. Yes there are the usual assortment of hangers on, and it appears there has been open conflict between different sections of the group. But at it's core, there is an organised group who know exactly what they're doing. A few examples:
1. The way they have had rolling waves of people joining the protest, as the initial crowd have tired and thinned.
2. The use of children on the front line.
3. The protestors have a kitchen, portaloos (which are being emptied regularly) and a medical centre.
4. The placement of the many vehicles around the parliament is strategic.
5. The protestors are in regular contact with the police, and have been told that the police will not 'arrest their way through this'.
6. The protestors are aware towing companies will not tow their vehicles. At least for now.
There is more, but these are signs of a well coordinated campaign, that is designed to last for some time yet.
I am not condoning the protest, I am not saying I agree with the views being expressed. I am simply saying the people who have organised and are coordinating this should not be written off. There are ways to end this peacefully, but it will take considerable skill and tact.
Yep. Considering the protest has been relentlessly mocked for being leaderless and without a clear set of demands they certainly have got shit pretty well organised.
And social media is working for them. The call went out yesterday evening for ponchos….hundreds were delivered. The way those with the skills took care of Mallard's sprinklers. The food and first aid tents. The way that Tamaki's army heeded the call and did not dominate when they turned up. More tents are arriving with those attending for the day. Kiwi as. And not a bureaucrat in sight.
Thanks, gypsy, for the first hand account.
Makes my suggestions below seem superfluous.
Agree, that the skillset required to address is high.
Let me clear, I do not condone any of this, certainly not threats (if indeed that has occurred). But writing these people off is foolish. And petty, vindictive actions like turning sprinklers on the protestors is not the brightest move.
War or Peace
What's the best way to deal with a (mainly peaceful) mob that say they want to hang you?
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece
Personally speaking I think the authorities need to back off and let these so called protesters hang themselves (metaphorically).
And,with a lot more quality reporting like this, that exposes the neo-nazi motivations of the main instigators underpinning this protest.
They say they want to talk to the politicians, how about this?
The PM address them directly appealing to their better natures to remain peaceful. In return the government will leave them alone to continue their protest on the condition that it remain peaceful.
Those people can't be reasoned with. The want to harm politicians and a direct address would excite/enrage them even more.
Better to let them burn themselves out, which is what police are doing.
These protesters have made it clear that they will not leave their protest camp peaceably.
They have come prepared for war.
The question is: is the government?
The Labour government need to decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in.
Better the government can defang them with negotiation rather than with batons.
Batons did appear briefly on belts but the district commander told 1ZB it was an error by the local commander and was soon rectified.
Another bad mistake. It has resulted in yet more people coming in. People are witnessing all this police aggression and stand over tactics (albeit a mistake or not) online and are saying f that we're going down/up there.
Can you see the flaw in your logic?
Do you remember the 81 Springbok tour? That was a prime example of protesters coming prepared for war. Baseball bats, rubbish bin lids and helmets.
The fact police are bringing batons to this event indicates they plan to bash unarmed, peaceful protesters.
I must say, the position some of you people on here are taking is sickening.
Come on Chairman, – anti-racism protesters carrying base ball bats at 1981 protests?
An outright lie, springing from your fetid right wing imagination.
No lies.
The intersection of Riddiford Street, Rintoul Street Newtown.
I was there and it was very violent.
Cops with batons, helmets and shields. Protesters with baseball/softball bats, motor bike helmets and rubbish bin lids.
As for claiming everyone is right wing, are you blind? Have a good look at the crowd. And you will soon see how wrong you are, again.
yeah, but they were up against the Red Squad. Completely different situation.
Indeed. The current protesters are largely peaceful and have not come prepared for war as falsely claimed by Jenny
Anyone can be wrong – even a "more left than most" lefty like yourself
"You lot" was a bit of a giveaway, don’t you think?
Plenty of images showing this – baseball bats, fence palings, stones and bottles thrown, motorcycle helmets, etc. Cars turned over and trashed, and a fair amount of random property damage.
See first photo in this article, for an example.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/pou-tiaki/125636133/1981-springbok-tour-40-years-on-1981-was-the-battle-for-the-soul-of-new-zealand
Not denying that there was police brutality as well (because there was) – but there was protester violence too, especially as the tour progressed and the protests escalated.
History is never as nice and tidy as we'd like to to be.
I never saw anyone carrying a baseball bat on the many springbok tour protests I attended in 1981
Clearly, you weren't at the clash at the intersection of Riddiford Street, Rintoul Street then.
Or when Minto was dragged into a private property…and softened.
Ah, for the old days when jocks ruled the roost.
As someone who was smashed over the head with a glass jug as I walked into a pub, not knowing it was full of protestors, wearing my club dress jersey I can certainly attest that there were violent protestors.
Bunch of losers that lot were. I was lucky not to be seriously hurt or brain damaged. There were some stupid violent people in amongst those protestors.
"They have come prepared for war"
"decide whether this is the ditch they want to die in".
Don't you think that this is getting a little hysterical Jenny? I've had another look and they are still campervans I see. They aren't armoured personnel carriers. I am also unable to see any military assault rifles or trench mortars among their belongings. Perhaps their are hand grenades? Nope.
It is a demonstration, not a war!
Then it should not need a paramilitary type assault against them.
Rescind the trespass notice.
The jealousy that this rag tag bunch of antis are able to organsise a better protests than anyone on the left for any cause in the latest 20 years hurts doesn’t it?
TBF, behaving like an undignified, ill-disciplined mob can't be that hard.
Paint them however you like, but they are not an ill disciplined mob. I'm no fan, but I marvel at the lengths they are going to and now am starting to enquire why people would prepare to camp at parliament this long in the face of such adversity.
Another twenty hours of rain and a 5-7C drop in temperature ahead of them so I guess we'll find out just how committed they are.
Judging by this haka, there is a lot more resolve than you are aware of.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300516015/live-wet-weather-does-little-to-slow-mandate-protest-at-parliament
Destiny nutters performing a Ngati Toa haka that Ngati Toa explicitly requested they stop using means shit.
/
Ae, and it's not like it's the middle of winter.
Good to see Māori up front rather than the Bannon fed crowd.
.
do you know how sheltered from the SE and the southerly the camp is?
No.
I will do in a couple of days, a buddy is in a group of reinforcements coming from Te Tai Tokerau to go 'freedom camping' in Wellys.
feel free to link me to any open social media with video that you consider good. I'm trying to pick up some on twitter.
The end of the lawn where the arrests were being made on Thursday is at the northern end of the lawn. The lawn slopes back down from there to the south to the southern gates which come off Lambton Quay. So the site lies north south but slopes to the south. The site has quite a few trees to the South & SE so that would provide a tiny bit of protection. These trees often 'throw down' branches during wind from any direction.
Tonight they are saying to expect SE wind up to gale force. We have a wind and rain warning out for Wellington. .
My home is also NS but is tucked away from Southerlies & to an extent from SW. When we get SE winds which is not often, these winds can be very damaging. I say my garden does not like SE winds. The only time I have lost trees and shrubs it has been during a SE wind, we had some about 6 weeks or so ago that has absolutely cut that side of a pear tree, all leaves gone.
Summary
site lies north south
slope to south
some protection with trees to S but these trees are also prone to throwing branches. Wind will be diffused by trees but esssentially will blow up the site
The site has multiple smooth paths that water will run down.
The site will catch the rain as it faces south
The trenches that have been built seem to be running to the east.
One trench from last night runs south.
Who ever is the leader there, if sensible, needs to weigh up if they have made their point or do they continue and risk putting lives at risk from the cold, wind = exposure.
Not sure what sort of relationship the group has with Ngati Poneke and if they can evacuate to there, nearby Marae. Not sure where they would go if evacuated by Civil Defence, perhaps to a school hall?
I don't have any high expectations that the leaders would see it wise to evacuate the loyal 'foot' soldiers. To continue far from showing how staunch they are, will just cement idiocy as the prevailing theme.
Most true leaders would recognise how important it is for 'troops' to be warm, dry and fed. Leaders who lose their 'troops' from preventable happenings don't tend to stay as leaders very long.
My query is about the ability and role of Civil Defence and perhaps Public Health to intervene but this group (current leadership with Counterspin etc) may probably resist any attempt to help on CD or health grounds.
PS In last 15mins the rain has become very heavy.
PPS the twitter of Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara is the only one, other than official ones I am following.
Not sure they have leaders in the way that you mean.
They have the internet.
Everyone has the internet? ? ?? ? This site is on the internet and you are using it to communicate
It was not so common twenty years ago!!
Have to say I'm impressed, and am thinking about why this hasn't been done by climate activists. Whatever the politics here, there are important things to be learned.
Yeah that, and also that lefty commentators have so little understanding of the protest itself is a chuckle too.
When you're done chuckling, can you tell us what the protest is meant to achieve?
What government policies do you expect to change as a result of the protest?
Here to understand, but nobody wants to answer this.
Oh we understand it make no mistake about that.
We understand the dark forces behind it that are exploiting the inchoate anger and powerlessness over many issues, not just vaccine mandates, and channeling that inchoate anger into dangerous extremist far right directions.
We need to do two things; Not be drawn into a confrontation with the protesters which is what these far right manipulators want.
And two address the growing inequity and powerlessness being experienced by many in our society.
We need to 'Be Kind' not just in words but in actions.
Tone deaf
(A history)
Couple of reasons, for a given value of "better", I think.
There is nothing that the PM can say to change the mindset of the protesters.
The protesters need to find a different venue other than the grounds of parliament.
There is nothing that the PM can say to change the mindset of the protesters.
Hmmm I can think of several things the PM could say which would probably see an end to the protest today, and the PM would be behaving like a stateswoman in the process. A classic win-win, but it won't happen because the PM isn't a stateswoman.
The PM could say that vaccine passes and mandates have been rescinded and that we will never see them again while she is PM. She could say that we will never see another lockdown while she is PM. She could apologise unreservedly for the damage and harm caused by lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes. She could cite the Health Ministry's pandemic plan (2017) which makes no mention of lockdowns, vaccine mandates or passes. She could explain why the Government (mistakenly) went much further than the pandemic plan envisaged. She could remind the public that the pandemic plan was predicated on the basis that 38,000 people would die over 8 weeks of an outbreak. She could advise the public that that simply could not have happened with COVID as the case fatality rate was too low. She could apologise for taking such draconian action, and state that such action will never be taken again while she is PM. She could apologise for the scaremongering that has been spread by Government Ministers, the media and officials. She could apologise to those who were dismissed or resigned from their jobs because they would not be coerced into getting vaccinated. She could formally apologise to Charlotte Bellis and other pregnant women who were unreasonably and unnecessarily denied access to their homeland. That would be a good start and would likely see an end to the protest today. But her spin doctors would have a heart attack.
Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?
The public will have their say on how well this Labour government handle the Covid – 19 pandemic at the next general election in the third quarter of 2023.
I am unable to devote my time further today.
Are you saying that the PM should please the minority and not the majority?
No, I'm saying the PM would be doing the right thing – and politicians should always do the right thing – by herself, her Government, the public and, lastly, the protesters. I think Hot Chocolate said it best.
Looking back on this band, they produced some of the best hooks in popular music ( everyone's a winner). ( you sexy thing). (It Started With A Kiss). (No Doubt About It).
The political equivalent, but without the talent, is Jacinda and her spin doctors: (be kind). ( tena koutou katoa). ( I'm not ignoring you Barry) ( I'll start with Jessica). ( We expect). ( I'll pass that to Dr Bloomfield) ( time to move on)
I ask blog to please excuse my dry Tory wit.

Great outside the box thinking. Government deliver the shivering protesters a trolley of hot chocolate drinks first thing every morning.
Love your enemies, nothing annoys them more.
"Love your enemies, nothing annoys them more."
Or address the distress.
In line with your suggestion, a possible strategy.
Given the skillset required, it is unlikely to be found in the police force, but more usual in the Māori wardens (or their equivalent if there is one). They are immediately recognisable, and have a wealth of experience in dealing with the marginalised and distressed. They can be seen to have no skin in the game.
Imagine, having a group of such people working their way through the crowd organising meetings, that look to reduce the harm for the public – protestors and non-protestors alike. Handing out leaflets that outline those issues and allow time for discussion, and suggestions.
ie. 1. Given the large number of children present, what plans are in place for their physical wellbeing and safeguarding? Is anything else needed? Do you have a site policy of no drugs or alcohol? Are you able to manage this without assistance?
2. Are the public facilities available sufficient for the increased use? Does this need to be addressed in practical ways by the protestors to ensure physical health? ie. cleaning crew, additional supplies?
3. What are the plans to ensure wellbeing for all in terms of:
inclement weather, unsupported fringe actions, non-protestor distrust and reaction?
4. Is there a requirement for counselling support to those present?
5. Given a large proportion of negative response is due to concerns of the protest being a superspreader event, how are the organisers going to practically consider and address that impediment to being heard?
6. Is there a consensus list of concerns and solutions that are able to be agreed upon, that will allow those present to feel that their presence has been articulated in such a way that is valid? and will be a coherent message for media and the non-protesting public?
7. How are protest organisers dealing with those who attend that are utilising the protest for their own purposes, or acting in ways that are not consistent with peaceful protest? Is help required?
8. Have you considered putting together a depository of stories that will allow those not present to understand why you are all here?
Regardless of what we approve of, we need to look after people.
I recollect the experience of someone who worked in Civil Defence after the Christchurch earthquakes, who related the reluctance of many tourists to leave the marae experience after they had partaken of their hospitality when offered. A few stayed for several days on the largesse of the local marae, because it was provided for free, and they saw no need to move on somewhere where they had to pay.
If we can allow such casual selfishness for non-citizens, we can surely extend compassion to our own.
Missed an important consideration:
Who are the people within the protest that can be contacted in case of situations or emergencies? And provide them with a list of those who can be contacted by the protestors in respect of the same.
Brilliant!
I would like to suggest one more thing.
One of the protesters demands is that they be able to speak to the politicians.
Maybe we could ask them to choose two or three people who they feel best represent them to become part of a delegation to go and meet with the politicians in parliament. Including a media outlet of their choice to record and relay the proceedings back to them.
Asking them to hold an election to choose their representatives might be instructive of how democracy works and bring some sort of order and organisation to what seems to be an inchoate angry mob.
Prime Minister Ardern is not going to do any of those things.
Nor should she.
Why not?
I thought the Prime Minister's Kindness model was a great idea. Now is the chance to realise it in practice.
I think we should take up Molly’s suggestions.
The standard planning model was probably not been based on Covid, and would assume no actions taken to slow cases.
Denmark has just removed all restrictions – they had a fairly good record, but not as good as New Zealands in preventing deaths, but they have now had over 2 million cases, 4,000 deaths, with 45,000 new cases and 24 new deaths yesterday – they have a similar population to NZ. I suspect your proposals above would not be supported in parliament by a majority of MPs; not all National MPs would vote for it.
So Ross, you think the government should do nothing to protect the people during a global pandemic, that they shouldn't try and save as many lives as possible and that they shouldn't prevent the health system from being overwhelmed?
"I apologise for Public Health Measures that have saved thousands of lives, and which have enjoyed great public support since the pandemic began. I realise now that people have the right to infect other people with deadly diseases through their own stupidity, and the Government should never intervene to protect the elderly and the vulnerable from such stupidity."
That sound about right?
Sounds exactly right, DS.
Well no. That doesn't sound about right. Nothing is ever right for a bunch of angry, performative, strange bedfellow zealots.
+1 DS that's about right.
Not sure the PM needs to be the one to apologise for the damage covid has done compelling us as a country into lock downs, vaccine mandates and passes. Covid19 should be the person apologising for that. She could acknowledge it has been difficult for many and that covid times have necessitated such, but I believe she has done that a number of times. She has said there will be no more lockdowns, that's what the traffic light system is about. If things get incredibly dire and we are forced back into another lockdown I think most people will, even reluctantly, understand. common sense would prevail. Of course we are all hoping that is so. Once the omicron wave has passed we will be in a better position to relook at vaccine mandates and passes. I don't see them as being permanent. So the PM at some point might well be able to state their end. I have always seen them as a 'necessary evil' if you like, a time bound thing that has an end date, whatever that end date might be.
As for the protestors my plan would be this. Allow them to stay, contain them to a set area, remove vehicles clogging up streets and footpaths – a warning first and then towed, any more than moderate antisocial behaviour results in arrest, turn off the sprinklers and the floodlights etc, allow them to have a presence and pretty much ignore them as best can. if people want to camp out there for days on end then leave them to it.
And how do you intend to enforce that?
More violence?
And how do you intend to enforce that?
Not using violence.
The question may have been badly worded.
How do you intend to enforce that? Could have been written; How do you intend to compel that without the use of force?
The use of force requires using various levels of violence.
In this case, forcibly dragging people off the grounds of parliament against their will.
Society does have other ways to compel people
Fines, for instance.
But I see that their illegally parked vehicles have been ticketed didn't convince them to move them.
You first raised force and violence and not me.
Sure I raise these things, that is because I oppose their use to end this protest.
You said; "The protesters need to find a different venue other than the grounds of parliament."
I asked; "How do you intend to enforce that?"
You replied; "Peacefully"
How?
How do you propose we remove this protest to a different venue peacefully?
The occupation of the grounds of parliament is now a police operational matter. NZ is not a police state, the government need to be careful with what they say.
I would like the protesters to form a representative group and the group meet with Coster the police commissioner. An alternate venue to be decided and an exit time.
Mandates will eventually be done away with as they will not be required. I expect very few people will line up for a 4th vaccine using the current vaccines. Mandates will not be required when a vaccine is reliable and effective against Covid – 19.
Ihumatao should have done the same. How dare bastion pt be turned into a symbolic geographical symbol.
I’m afraid JHTGT, that your suggestion for Jacinda ( or any polly for that matter) to address the crowd has already been suggested by me.
It has gone down like a lead balloon with a tonne weight on top.
Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.
Sometimes I despair.
If you think it’s good strategy for the PM to go out in front of an angry anti-vax crowd who want to string her up for “murder”, you are dumber than I thought.
And that is saying something.
I was actually thinking of a broadcast.
To get their attention;
Well signposted beforehand, that the PM will be addressing the protesters at Parliament directly.
She'd be legitimising crank views which would undermine the effort the rest of us have made over the last 2 years.
If if is being done in an honest attempt to avert unnecessary violent confrontations in which no one wins, negotiating with your opponent is not legitimising their crank views.
''Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.''
No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.
These people are no different to Trump's insurrectionists – they are merely outgunned, and thus pretending to be peaceful.
The traditional remedy will do fine – read them the riot act, and arrest those who remain. No need for violence – confiscating their tents will get most of them gone sharpish.
''No – you want a gesture of respect the "protestors" don't deserve.''
No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.
You obviously haven't been reading my other posts on this thread.
You are either being wilfully ignorant, or you aren't getting the jist of what I'm saying.
You do realise that in an ABSOLUTE SENARIO with civil war breaking out in NZ, instigators would probably charge her with treason – they wouldn't be too concerned about the finer shades or appropriateness of the word ''treason.''
They would simply say – ''you refused to listen to us. You discriminated against us. You broke my family up. I was on a hundred grand a year you!#@$, now l’m eating baked beans. My loved one died when I was in M1Q. etc.
The chances of that happening at present is slim. But if the pressure keeps up, people will start to ask questions and reconsider the situation.
Questions like:
1- Why weren't protesters moved on quickly?
2- Surely some polly could have addressed the protesters?
3- Police brutality( already an issue)
4- My business had to close because of government inaction.
In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.
Do you understand, Stuart?
Oh, and Stuart. Don't forget I have predicted this year will be the worst in NZs history.
I have to record my predictions for Weka.
I don't understand this. No politician, not one, has engaged with this rabble.
Not one from any part of NZ's political spectrum.
You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.
''You might as well include them all with Jacinda because they clearly agree with the current approach otherwise we'd be hearing about it from Barry Soper.''
Fair comment, and I said yesterday all other pollies stand condemned with Jacinda. Especially Luxon and Dave…supposed Righties. They are just wastes of space. They should have been out there in front of protesters offering an alternative reality for NZ.
But the protesters have come for only one polly..and that is Jacinda; leader of Labour and our nation. She is the one affecting protesters lives according to their perspective.
She must accept all consequences for what happens going forward regard this and possible future protests.
But the protesters have come for only one polly..and that is Jacinda;
They did say that they had an “arrest warrant” for Andrew Little. They tried to storm Parliament to serve it on him.
I didn't know about that. I don't think Andy would be too worried.
I must say, having a beard has changed his look and demeanour from being a mousy timid looking chap, to someone with gravitas and presence.
That would have served him well when he was leading the Labour Party.
National may have stopped calling him Angry Andy.
It's in the Charlie Mitchell article posted at 2 and 3 on this very thread. A very good report and I encourage you to read it.
Little would be a fool not to be concerned about that. And a fool i can't see he is.
@muttonbird
It doesn't look like Blade is here to actually read anything. Just to spread meaningless rhetoric.
Please hold on.. and be fair.
I have just finished the article. And after looking at the photo of this chap, I will say he looks like a pure feral with some mongrel bloodline. He also has form.
I would agree with you and admit Andrew will need to be careful.
I can't and don't read everything…neither do you, I would bet.
Notice how the article tracks some of my comments?
To be fair, it has been all over the MSM for several days.
It may have been over the MSM for several days…but I didn't see it.
I read a huge amount of stuff each day. That usually covers most bases, sometimes it doesn't.
You might read a lot of stuff every day, but obviously not stuff relevant to the rhetoric you plaster about in here.
I have explained myself. You are welcome to your opinion.
If you want to play this game. I can play too. Although it shouldn't be a problem for you as you read all the relevant stuff.
Let's see in future?
put the word prediction in your comment each time and it will be relatively easy to keep track of them 👍
Ok.
No, I want the PM to cover all her bases so she can act decisively and with a clear conscience.
Of course you do! Who wouldn't? But then you say:
In my opinion, all blame can be sheeted back to Jacinda for this situation morphing.
Astonishing! The unusually stupid people that you identify with are to be forgiven for their violence, their dishonesty , endangering public health, trespass, affray, and attempted insurrection – at least in the howling void that passes for your cognitive spaces.
I wonder if the judiciary will be so sympathetic "Blade".
We long ago understood that your intention is to lend credence to the semi-conscious liberation army presently threatening our democracy.
You are an aide and an accomplice to these traitors Blade, a mischievous miscreant who knows less about democracy than he ought, an agent provocateur maliciously trying to pollute public discourse and steer us towards a further derogation and destabilization, producing even less democracy than we presently enjoy as our institutions are fatally paralyzed by neoliberalism.
What a shameful practice you are engaged in Blade, the traditional province of foreign spies and saboteurs – no wonder you feel obliged to conceal your identity.
Wise up, you stupid, irresponsible, culpable prat. Neither you, nor your lunatic sympathizers presently cowering in the rain have anything whatsoever to offer NZ.
Go home. Sober up. Try to be less of a public disgrace.
I'm afraid you are a nutcase. One the Left are famous for.
I have tried to reason with you.
I have tried to explain my comments with you.
You aren't interested. You blindly prattle on in your own ignorance.
You then make up shit that would put Ian Fleming to shame.
If posters were moderated for stupidity, you would have been back flipping burgers long ago.
I'm afraid you are a nutcase.
Yes, we've noticed you have nothing to offer but personal abuse. No plausible links, no credible assertions, no testable premises – only cheap and stupid invective. You disgrace your cause.
Posters on this site can't get their heads around the fact that Jacinda addressing the crowd isn't about a political debate with protesters, it's about strategy. Strategy in the governments favour.
It depends of course on what she would say. If it was the same old platitudes, then she'd be wasting her time and would likely antagonise the protesters. But a genuine mea culpa and appropriate action to rescind what have been terrible policies, it's a win-win-win – for the protesters, the public and her. But her spin doctors wouldn’t allow it lol
Ross, I doubt the PM would get a word in sideways. They want a whipping boy, and she is it.
Addressing the crowd covers her on a number of fronts..it then allows her to proceed, using force, to remove the protesters.
You can bet people are going to be hurt and there's the possibility of things becoming worse down the track.
But innocent people and businesses are being affected. That isn't on in my books.
You can bet people are going to be hurt and there's the possibility of things becoming worse down the track.
Well, sure, if police continue to resort to violence. But that's on them, not the protesters.
“Parnell said on top of 900 officers in the district, another 150 had been pulled in from across the country, with potentially more to come.”
So, 900 local police can't handle a peaceful protest? Burglars in Wellington must think it’s their birthday and Xmas rolled into one lol
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-parliament-protest-sprinklers-turned-on-second-wave-convoy-en-route/3MKC44AVVFXXTGUATPSLMIFN7Q/
I have stated our police are incompetent. More so police hierarchy.
I'm guessing there's friction between what commanders on the ground want to do, and what Cuddles Costa and Poto Williams are allowing them to do.
That's leading to police frustration at having to hold the line when they know they could have resolved this situation days ago.
And of course, police like every organisation, have their hotheads who have short fuses. It's not rocket science as to what happens when they blow their fuses.
It will be interesting to see what comes out in the review into this protest that is to follow..
I repeat this is a guess and speculation on my part. I get tired of trolls who pick apart my comments when they can assail my main points.
It would have to be accepted they are terrible policies.
95% of eligible Kiwis think they're great policies.
That is a slam-dunk landslide.
"95% of eligible(?) Kiwis think they're great policies."
Are you taking this number from vaccination status? My partner and I are both double-vaxxed and boosted, and also disagree with the current government policy re vaccine passports.
There is also a failure to provide a data justification for this:ie. Does the difference in virus shedding for an unvaccinated person have a significant impact given that they are around 5% of the population? If so, how has that calculated benefit been weighed against the social and well-being costs of those that are obviously (and invisibly) struggling?
Although, I don't agree with all Ross writes above, he does provide an alternative that is still maintains authority, while showing understanding and compassion. It's the solving of the difficult situations that show your skill.
Of course, we can just keep on with the schoolyard level ridiculing and smugness that comes from knowing you are on the team of five million – less some.
Given that the protest is likely to be a superspreader event, we are likely to get some answers on the efficacy of a 'let it rip' approach soon enough. The problem is that we don't have the resources to cope with the fall-out if it all goes pear-shaped, especially when it is obvious that the staunch won't acknowledge being infected, even until seriously affected.
Yes, I know this is what is being said. What I haven't seen is the modelling that compares the unvaccinated shedding to get an outcome, and views it against the obvious distress and concern of the 5% that are unvaccinated.
Have you?
95% of eligible Kiwis think they're great policies
And millions watch Coronation St, so by your logic it must be a great programme lol
I must confess I haven't seen any surveys where people have been asked whether they enjoy lockdowns, vaccine mandates and passes, or whether they’ve assessed any cost/benefit analysis of such policies. Maybe you could point me to such a survey. When the senior editor of the British Medical Journal says that vaccine mandates are bad, you might want to listen. When economists and other experts say that lockdowns are a huge policy failure, you might want to listen. But it’s not mandatory.
https://www.covidplanb.co.nz/epidemiology/meta-study-lockdowns-greatest-peacetime-policy-failure/
https://faculty.rx.umaryland.edu/pdoshi/files/2021/11/Doshi-MedChi-talk-script.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2010/dec/10/ratings-coronation-street-live
No to any mea culpas.
The government policies in fighting the pandemic have been far from terrible, in fact this government's strategy for dealing with the pandemic have been recognised around the world.
A vociferous minority divorced from reality armed with 'alternative facts' and hidden far right agendas dispute this.
The question here is not about giving in to them, the question is: How do we deal with this vociferous minority?
Do we deal with them harshly or with tact?
Personally I think we need to stick with the "Be Kind" strategy.
The "Be Kind" slogan is meaningless if it is only intended to be applied to those who agree with us. We were going to be kind to those people anyway.
"The "Be Kind" slogan is meaningless if it is only intended to be applied to those who agree with us. We were going to be kind to those people anyway."
It is – as you say – a slogan.
One that I have always disparaged, as it implies a starting point of no kindness.
well yes, but it's true isn't it, that we also have a lot of not kind and actual anti-kindness in NZ?
I am aware there is plenty of uncelebrated kindness and compassion in NZ within the community. Be kind to them is preaching to the choir. Be kind to the terminally 'unkind' is pissing in the wind.
I find the term quite trite, and would never resort to it when parenting for that reason. It means nothing, because kindness is subjective.
<i>….. it [be kind], implies a starting point of no kindness.</i>
And you would be right, look around, there is not much kindness in the world of politics and human conflict.
That is why the "Be kind" statement gained so much surprised world attention.
Now that the rubber is hitting the tarmac is now the time that 'Be Kind' slogan needs to be put into practice.
Hi Jenny, I admit I have a personal antipathy towards the "Be Kind" message as mentioned above, but do agree with your view that this needs follow through.
Ironically, my first thought is that it really involves the other slogan that travelled around the world "They Are Us". Wouldn't that acknowledgment in this case be the kindest place to start?
But how are the protesters being kind to me? They are pretty much complying with none of the traffic light rules.
They want kindness but are going to be harming a lot of people through the high likelihood of creating a supers-preader event. There is only so much you can turn the other cheek to.
The ironic thing is that if this doesn't become a super-spreader event it will be down to the rules that the government put in place that has led to very low community spread.
And besides all that, it's the biggest anti-climate change rally without being an anti-climate change rally.
It sounds like a large number of them are seriously disturbed and need help, not that they would ever admit it.
The protesters have their point of view, it is the way they are going about it that I dislike.
…it is the way they are going about it that I dislike.
Which I think is what Adrian is meaning. The way they are going about it suggests some of them are seriously disturbed. Mind you there been an improvement since the trouble shooters were removed from the scene.
You are qualified to make that statement are you Anne? A professional psychiatrist perhaps? And you talked to the people you are discussing did you?
It seems that they have 'entrenched' themselves in Trevor's front lawn …..
Trench warfare?
Trench warfare?
A country of lions led by mallards.
I was debating the other day about flaws in our transition to green energy, and the missteps I believe we are making.
I was told the fossil fuel industry was dragging its heels and we need to move to green energy to basically save the planet.
But, in the real world not only the fossil fuel industry is supposedly dragging their heels, so are the unions. And I don't blame them. Covid would be least of our worries if fuel supplies ran out in these uncertain times.
Does the government understand this : No, they don't.
The union is presently taking out ads in the papers ( in our local at least) to explain this perilous situation.
Quote from link below:
''Mr Harrison says the fact that Energy Minister Megan Woods took a paper to Cabinet with a proposal for securing the future of the refinery was a clear indication that closure was a risky strategy.''
https://www.munz.org.nz/2021/11/23/maritime-union-calls-for-government-review-of-marsden-point-closure/
As an aside, I spent a few days on a coastal oil tanker making stops around the North Island. What a great gig. It's a whole different lifestyle.
The European Commission has declared Nuclear and Gas to be green
https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-declares-nuclear-and-gas-to-be-green/a-60614990
Crickey…that's a fly in the ointment for the Left, especially greenies… and even for a whole generation of anti nuclear protesters.
I'm investing in our first nuclear power plant.
There is a form of nuclear power production that is far safer and with less radio active waste. I believe that would be a viable compromise with the green set. Although I don't think the greens do compromise very well.
Funny. The NZ Green Party set the example for how to work across difference all the time. What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?
Looks to me like the oil companies, industrial farmers, rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise. We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?
Let's just see what the plan looks like in May.
Plenty to discuss in the meantime.
''What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?''
Fair enough…give us some examples.
''Rich bastard death cult that's the one that won't compromise.''
You mean like farmers who are continually upgrading their farming practices, saving native bush and replanting wetlands?
Meanwhile, the media and Greens and the government continue to clobber the farming sector and use errant farmers as an example of why farmers need more regulations.
And while I'm at it – these latte slurping urban Greens and city folk generally, need a week on a farm to find out about the industry that keeps this country a float, and allows Robbo to play Robin Hood.
Maori need a serve here, too. I'm tired of hearing about them being kaitiaki of this and that. But when the time comes for community green projects that demand mahi…they are nowhere insight.
''We have the technology to shift to renewable tech fast, and have done for a long time, so why aren't we?''
For the reason I have given above and in previous debates.
You can do your own homework on that. I suggest reading Ad's posts and comments, because he talks about this albeit sometimes in negative ways about the Greens. But Shaw's basic position has been negotiation and getting a wide range of disparate sectors on board with the government's climate response, including farmers and business people.
No. Don't selective quote me. I said,
This is a tiresome debate. Obviously there are lots of farmers doing good things, others heading in the right direction, many stuck by their huge loans and so on. And, Fed Farmers is anti-green and dragging the chain massively on climate action, and industrial farming cannot by definition be sustainable.
Maybe farmer should get together and form a new union, so that we don't have to take Fed Farmers as their main representation.
Even the best of covnentional farmers in my area (I live rurally) aren't even close to being sustainable. Despite some of them doing good things.
Haha, mate I've lived in the country most of my adult life and I have my own critique of townies. But you can't pull the wool over my eyes either and pretend that conventional ag isn't doing a lot of harm while it's making all that dosh for the country.
That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?
No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.
''No, you didn't. You blamed the unions for something vague and you talked about nuclear power.''
I blamed the union for nothing as far as I can remember. The union has the same concerns about fuel supply as the fossil fuel industry. See my link.
We have the technology to produce green energy. We do not have the infrastructure or capacity to use green technology to power NZ on its own without input from fossil fuel sources.
If you know this to be not true please provide a link.
Anyway, the present green technology is only a stop gap measure until cold fusion, zero point energy and hydrogen are perfected. Cold fusion is coming along nicely.
Then the universe will belong to us. I'm sure the citizens in far flung galactic communities will be thrilled to see a bunch of wankers like us.
''That probably reflects both your racism and the circles you move in. Tell me, what kind of community green projects are you involved in?''
That is an uncalled for comment. But it's a standard response to anyone who critiques Maori, gays and other assorted purveyors of wokeism.
No, I'm not involved in any green projects. I do however grow natives for replanting, and have planted riverbanks with trees to stop erosion.
I once offered trees to a project that was replanting on TeMata Peak in Hawke's Bay. The project manager, a retired local doctor, politely declined my offer because : ''the trees didn't come from the local area.'' We are talking natives of the same species required for planting.
Of course Maori have a big say over TeMata Peak, having recently stopped a winery from using a track they had made on the peak, even though the winery had every right to because it was on private land.
I'm GUESSING the good doctor declined my offer because he was worried he could have run foul of Maori. Usually doctors aren't so irrational.
So, sorry if you see me as a racist. I'm not. But I refuse to kiss woke butt.
Critise woke culture all you like, I was talking about your continual Māori bashing. You seem to be throwing anything liberal in terms of policy under wokeism.
Yes, biosourcing for native restoration matters.
NZ can't produce all the power it needs from anything. Magic tech to replace brown tech won't work on any level other than that some people will get richer for a while. We have to powerdown. Renewables can be part of that, but they come with their own set of problems. Continuing to burn fossil fuels is insane. Even if you don't believe in AGW, there are compelling reasons to powerdown and fast.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102673141/government-to-sign-deal-with-northland-iwi-to-plant-four-million-trees
https://waateanews.com/2021/05/05/kaipara-ready-for-20-million-trees/
https://tehiku.nz/te-hiku-radio/te-reo-o-te-rangatira/7148/tree-planting-ready-to-go-in-ngati-hine-forestry
https://www.teaomaori.news/native-tree-planting-boost-northland-hapu-and-iwi
…
Can you put your post into context with my post?
”Government to sign deal with Northland iwi to plant four million trees.”
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/102673141/government-to-sign-deal-with-northland-iwi-to-plant-four-million-trees
You may have a problem with that baby.
"What do you think Shaw has been doing for the past five years as Climate Minister?"
You know, when you put it that way, my only reply is "Damned if I know, but he's probably been to a few conferences".
yeah, but you had a long history of lying about the Greens on TS, so you're bias is well established. Doesn't surprise me if you don't know what he's done, or if you do and are lying again.
I will admit to being biased about the Green Party. I don't think that the MPs that they have had since Rod Donald, Kennedy Graham and Kevin Hague have been Green at all.
However I do not accept that I lied about them. I merely highlighted things about them that some of their true believers didn't like being publicized. Was I being selective? Yes. But was I lying? No.
"Damned if I know", alwyn, "damned if I know."
The French President Macron has now made it a campaign pledge to retain and expand nuclear energy – to decrease reliance on gas.
Germany is going to have to face up to the strategic vulnerability it has created with something better than more gas pipelines from Gazprom.
Don't you think they considered that before giving the greenlight to Nordstream 2?
It is clear that the U.S believes it controls Germany, given Bidens promise to interfere with Nordstream 2.
Biden campaigned on being 'tough' with Russia and is painting himself into a…corner.
Nuclear and gas are not the only non-green solutions to climate change being proposed.
Included in the list of non-green strategies to deal with climate change are, carbon capture, geo engineering, off-setting, mitigation.
The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions.
As well as being the only truly Green solution to climate change, cutting back our emissions is also the only solution to climate change that is not being taken seriously.
We are not cutting back our emissions, we are increasing them.
"The only truly Green solution to climate change is to cut back on carbon emissions"
Why then do you not regard nuclear power as being Green?
"Nuclear power plants produce no greenhouse gas emissions during operation, and over the course of its life-cycle, nuclear produces about the same amount of carbon dioxide-equivalent emissions per unit of electricity as wind, and one-third of the emissions per unit of electricity when compared with solar."
https://world-nuclear.org/nuclear-essentials/how-can-nuclear-combat-climate-change.aspx
Those numbers apparently come from the IPCC
Nuclear energy does not qualify as being green on a number of fronts.
The mining and processing of uranium into yellowcake, with negative health affects on mine workers, the local environment and water courses.
The problematic question as where to store or dispose of the massive amounts of deadly radioactive waste, and the maintenance of such facilities for time spans longer than civilisation has existed.
The contamination of large amounts of arable land and the irradiation of the local population in the case of an accidental release of radiation due to human error or natural disaster.
The statement about "massive amounts" and "time spans etc" are largely myths. There really isn't that much high level waste produced. The problem is with getting people to accept the ways that disposal could safely be done.
If you have a little bit of time have a look at this.
https://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/radwaste.html
Most nuclear waste is surprisingly short lived. I remember when I was at University I did some experiments that involved irradiating various materials. One created quite active isotopes of silver. You certainly wouldn't have handled it when it was newly radiated. However the half life was only about 90 seconds and after 30 minutes the radiation level had dropped by a factor of a million. Most waste from reactors is quite short-lived, if not quite as short as that, and for the longer lived stuff vitrifying it and dumping it into a deep shaft in the Australian outback would get rid of it until long after it had decayed.
One, out of three?
OK, I don't necessarily agree, but I will give you that one.
What about the other two?
I know absolutely nothing about the mining of Uranium and have, therefore, nothing useful to say.
I guess the major Nuclear accidents were Chernobyl, Fukushima, Kyshtum, Windscale and Three Mile Island.
The number of short term deaths from Chernobyl was only about 50. The Chernobyl Forum came up with a figure of 4,000 to 9,000 for future cancer deaths while the Union of Concerned Scientists came up with 27,000. Greenpeace proposed that it was many more but I really doubt there detachment in their study
https://www.newsweek.com/chernobyl-disaster-death-toll-estimates-radiation-cancer-1444029.
Fukushima occurred in 2011, There were about 20,000 people killed in the earthquake, the tsunami and the evacuation. In 2018 the first death from radiation was reported. I don't know whether there have been any others.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-45423575
The 3rd and 4th were back in the 1950s and were in plants designed to make Plutonium for bombs. In other words they were in the early days and they weren't power stations.
At number five you get an incident that doesn't seem to have killed anyone at all. If these five are the worst accidents in about 70 years of the technology I really don't think that we have that much to concern ourselves with.
https://www.nei.org/resources/fact-sheets/lessons-from-1979-accident-at-three-mile-island
The main trouble with radiation is you can't see it, or feel it, while it is occurring. By the time you know it has happened you can't do anything much about it. That is why it is so scary.
Ampol's (cheap-imo)takeover offer for Z Energy which has a 40%+ market share is contingent on the refinery closing.
Huge multi national Ampol realise the refinery could become a factor in supply/demand/price issues that could affect profitibility.
The irony is delicious.
A lot of the comments here are in the tone that I would have expected to have seen on the BFD (or the defunct Whale Oil) about a Greenpeace protest.
I have kept out of this discussion, preferring to absorb the various opinions of others. But your comment is spot on.
The righties love false equivalence – having no tenable arguments of their own.
Well when the super efficient containerised supply chain falls to bits, go back to the old way.
Refrigerated cargo ships are making a return to the NZ export scene
I find it hard to understand why, when there are plenty of nuclear-powered military ships and submarines, there aren't more nuclear-powered supertankers.
Granted it would take a lot of expensive port infrastructure to handle, and granted a lot of cities would be nervous, but it sure seems easier than trans-Pacific electrified airlines.
one word
proliferation
or the fear it would help more nations get nuclear weapons.
It's a pity we have to reinvent the wheel. Coastal shipping was a key part of Aotearoa/New Zealand's early development before we got all clever and modern. It's predicted to make a comeback which is great.
This link is to a story is about a report commissioned by Waka Kotahi. They do get the occasional thing right, and I hope this one of them.
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/blue-highway-govt-moots-25-40m-coastal-shipping-network
Given what we are already experiencing and still to face more use of rail and coastal shipping make a lot of sense to me.
Some examples of police thuggery at the Wellington protest. Hopefully, the cops who have engaged in such disgraceful behaviour are held accountable. One can only hope that the same officers don’t treat their partners and children in the same way.
http://www.facebook.com/100054764285485/videos/285027350395559
Of those three, the last one seems unnecessarily violent. The other two, we cannot see how they start so we can't know if the police response was disproportionate or not and if the people had resisted arrest or not.
The one with the teenage boy, that should be investigated to see if the policeman on the right is planking on his head, hard to tell from the video but it does look like another policeman comes up and says something and he stops.
Police can always do with looking at how they arrest people in such situations. I'm curious if you see the arrests as legitimate or not.
Many of us who know serving members of the police will know that for a significant portion the word protestor has an immediate and negative response. This response is unrelated to the reason for protest, but prejudiced against the act itself.
Whether this is a reaction to a pushback against authority, (which legitimises their own authority), or knowing they will be required to do crowd control in uncertain circumstances and the stress that accompanies that, I wouldn't know.
I would also think there would be a certain personality type attracted to the job, that like structure and rules and has discomfort around the idea and form of protests.
Unfortunately, sometimes there is a lack of self-awareness that removes the self-discipline required to respond well.
That makes a lot of sense. And the adrenaline and unpredictability of the situation as well, but I agree that the belief system one starts from influences how behaviour plays out in stressful situations.
If we accept that the arrests are legitimate, I think the conversation then becomes how can social and political pressure on the NZ Police move the to ensure that those arrests are done fairly and with the minimum force needed.
Likewise belief systems and political arguments. I suspect that Ross's belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong, therefore the police overstepping reinforces the belief that the mandates are wrong, round and round the circle. If the arrests aren't legitimate, are any arrests? Plenty of people at that protest will be anti-state and think the police should be disbanded. For those that believe these arrests are not legitimate, who should decide which ones are?
My own perspective is having watched XR in the UK make excellent political use of the police's mandate to arrest, that we should focus on how police can be pressured to change their tactics and behaviour towards fairness and justice, as well as putting the stark reality of the purpose of the protest in their faces.
I think that the experience of XR leaders and members, and the training and strategies that are conceived and taught have a marked difference in deployment and effect.
I admire the XR approach, but understand that the current NZ protests don't have those human resources and skills available.
yeah, XR doesn't translate easily into the NZ context for a range of reasons. We need our own strategies.
The other two, we cannot see how they start
That's irrelevant because we know how they end. (Was George Floyd’s treatment OK because of what he did earlier?) What do you think would've happened if the naked woman hadn't been visited by the cop apparently kneeling on her? She was already lying face down and was being restrained by two cops. The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair. We should never make excuses for police misconduct.
I suspect that Ross’s belief system is that the mandates are wrong, therefore the arrests are wrong.
You suspect wrong.
'The third cop's "intervention" wasn't necessary. And it wasn't necessary to put a sheet over her head or pull her hair."
I agree with this. Though I understand for many, their perspective will come from a place of personal lived experience.
From my perspective, she wasn't resisting. I saw the blanket coming, but was disconcerted to see it being put over her head, and not kept until they could cover her body after she had been handcuffed. There is something particularly dehumanising about covering someone's head while their body is naked. When I consider how I feel when my head is covered, I have a sense of abject horror. To accompany that with a pressure of unknown origin would be terrifying.
The threat of the woman, the non-resisting nature (until head covered) of their arrest, seems to indicate the headcovering and additional pressure was unnecessary and punitive.
My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head. At that point the media camera (or whoever) were close enough to make her identifiable. Later as they walked her away from the scene she had her back to the cameras so it wasn't necessary.
"My assumption was: the police medic was protecting her identity by putting the blanket over her head."
Like I mentioned previously, everyone is going to have their own perspective on this action. Mine differs from yours. Yours requires a knowledge of intent, which even if it is true, is a case of bolting the stable door given that she was intentionally naked at a public protest with no obvious attempt at hiding identity.
As I mentioned, I have a personal horror of having something put over my head, and see it as dehumanising to cover the head of someone that is naked. (The photos of the US military doing that in Abu Ghairib produce that visceral response in me.)
Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.
Really, we can only ask – could they have done better, ie. used less force and achieved the same?
Not knowing the true intention, or actual experience of the woman, means that our views are speculation.
Neither my comment nor anyone else's as far as I can see was suggesting otherwise. It is acceptable as both of us have done… to muse on a possible reason for something. That is how it came across to me when I first saw the clip. More often than not there is more than one reason why police officers – or anyone for that matter – may take a certain course of action in a highly charged siuation.
Agree.
Just know, as a lifelong asthmatic, the sensation of having my head covered is psychologically distressing with the attendant physical response of breathing difficulties.
For me, if this is police policy, it needs to be addressed. NZ has a high number of asthmatics, and many would feel discomfort. The dehumanising aspect of it bothers me as well.
We can't see whether she was or not at the point they pulled her out by her hair.
I also though the sheet over the head was a problem, and she clearly reacts to something in that that we cannot see. Adrenaline and panic in that situation would make many people react reflexively.
It looked to me like the medic dropped it there because it wasn't possible to cover her body until she was cuffed, but I agree it could also be an intentional tactic, in which case it's bullshit.
She did pull her arms free though and I can see how the police would see this as resisting and potentially her getting violent.
Yes, as mentioned to Anne above, any interpretation is pure speculation, whether in approval or disapproval of police response. I'm not convinced all actions were necessary.
I would much rather be in a discussion of unanimous appreciation of examples of how the police are handling the protests, but understand that is unlikely.
My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked. It is a relatively common event apparently but this one happened to take place in a highly charged situation and in the presence of media.
I'm sure those officers would have strictly followed protocol precisely because of that situation and the media presence.
I'm not as confident about that last bit as you (there are all sorts of examples of police all over the world who do stupid and violent shit on camera). But it would make sense that they have specific protocols for arresting naked people, including in such a situation, and I agree it was highly charged and potentially dangerous.
"I'm sure those officers would have strictly followed protocol precisely because of that situation and the media presence."
If that protocol includes covering the head of the person, then I believe that needs to be addressed.
would be nice if the MSM took the time to explain all this.
Excellent, Anne! Can you get your Police relative to perhaps quote the section of the Arrest Manual that states (more or less)…
"If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."
No hurry.
The difficulty arises Rosemary, is when Anne is able to provide such evidence.
Then we go from having to critique an incident, to having to address inhumane policy.
Let's hope that documentation doesn't exist.
(PS. Good to see you, hope you and yours are well.)
you hope it doesn't exist?
A police manual that says:
'"If you're lucky and the offender has sufficient hair then you are to take hold of said hair and drag the offender by the same. Drop a blanket over the face of the now subdued offender, and when she instinctively tries to free her face you get a colleague to cover her face again with the blanket and hold it on her head with his knee."
Not a non-existent policy.
But would be interested in knowing what the actual policy is, to add some hard information to the discussion apart from all these reckons – myself included.
My understanding from a close relative in the Force… the police have strict protocols around the removal of people who are naked.
Why would that be? Being naked is and of itself isn't a crime. If police have a problem with the sight of a naked body, their training needs to be improved.
Unless you thought you wouldn't be observed, exposing any part of your genitals is.
Context dependent I think.
Looks like it's legal depending on how and where nudity including genitals is done.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clothing_laws_by_country#New_Zealand
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indecent_exposure#New_Zealand
Unless you thought you wouldn't be observed, exposing any part of your genitals is.
Wrong.
Naked cyclist not offensive, judge rules | Stuff.co.nz
Cyclists bare all for Golden Bay World Naked Bike Ride | Stuff.co.nz
Go have an early AM slash in public unseen by anyone but the arresting police and find out. Indecent or not, exposing your genitals in public is a criminal offence.
https://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/man-ignored-warning-behaviour
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/10232009/Naked-man-not-indecent-exposure
https://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1981/0113/latest/DLM53587.html
Urinating in public is offensive though and that first link doesn't say he was charged for exposing his genitals in a public place.
Second link, dude was having a bath, naked, outside primary school. If he'd been on a beach and discrete for instance this wouldn't be considered offensive. Thus,
From the legislation,
My emphasis.
🙄
You don't think the mandates are wrong?
The issue is if the force used is proportionate. To know that we have to know if they had been resisting arrest and if they had been violent to police already. I'm not seeing anything even close to what happened to George Floyd and this kind of hyperbole is just a bullshit diversion from what the issues in the Wellington arrests are. Obviously the behaviour of police and Floyd was completely relevant to what happened and who was culpable.
Like I said, we can't see why they were using force at all. Why didn't she just walk out when they said she was under arrest? In the video, she clearly gets her hands free, I don't think it's a stretch to think the police believed she was resisting arrest.
Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?
I'd also like to know how she should have been arrested without pulling on her hair if she was forcefully resisting arrest. What if she was punch or kicking the cops?
True, we shouldn't. We also shouldn't assume we know what happened.
Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event. You still haven't said if you think the arrests are legitimate or not. This matters, because if they are legitimate, the debate is then about what force should be used. Otherwise, just let them sit on parliament grounds for a month if they want to.
Personally, I think the arrests are legitimate because of the public health risk from a super spreader event.
You have got the stats that support your determination that these people pose a significant public health risk? I'm thinking about Soundsplash, that just snuck in before the Red Light was activated. Do you know the final tally associated with that event that was open to only Vaccine pass holders?
I take it that the last two anti-mandate protest marches in Welly resulted in lots of cases? Especially the last one?
From what I heard from an attendee from a city further north, the outdoor mask wearing in Wellington appears to be more than a little OTT. There were looks of absolute horror from the Wellingtonians that the protesters were not masked…out of doors…in the fresh air…
What is it with that? I need to see the research that proves masks are necessary outdoors. Being able to breathe the air unimpeded must surely be better for one's health.
weka. Omicron is going to hopefully do the rounds of the entire country and we'll all hopefully develop some degree of natural immunity….because you're certainly not going to get the same quality immunity from the Pfizer product.
This is a good thing. Our immune systems need a good work out periodically so we are all able to better deal with harmful pathogens with less dependence on rapacious Big Pharma.
It is a very dangerous path we are being dragged down…this absolute dependence on these so-called vaccines that are being forced on us when they are of limited efficacy and suspect safety. Very dangerous, and I'm surprised that more here on TS can't see this.
So I support the protesters anti vaccine mandate demands …and I'm not the only one.
Yes. Not using my Saturday morning finding and reposting them as this has been covered at length already. And explained to you many times, which even yesterday you were denying.
Soundsplash shouldn't have happened. Look up McFlock's comment yesterday for the numbers.
No idea, did they? You appear to not understand what the concepts of risk and risk assessment are.
You're an idiot if after two years of pandemic you fail to understand the various reasons why some people do this. Or maybe you are being disingenuous again and do in fact understand but choose to misrepresent. I actually have no idea which.
Thanks for wishing so many of us at risk Rosemary. /sarc
I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes. Get back to me when there is some evidence for natural immunity and how that protects the public generally and then we can have a conversation. Myself, I think it will probably eventually happen, I don't think we are there yet.
Sure, but I'm wondering if you would take that approach if the death rate was 50%. There are limits to your philosophy and the debate is all about where those limits are.
I think it's potentially dangerous, the vaccines had imperfect but still useful efficacy, and all pharmaceutical medicines have side effects that can harm people, but I don't think it's as dangerous as letting covid run free at this time.
We’ve swapped rhetoric. Now what?
Never mind the rhetoric….what about those injured and killed by the Pfizer product? I have heard nothing from you about this. Or are you unquestioningly accepting the official line that side effects are mild and transitory and myocarditis from Covid is much worse than from the 'vaccine'?
Sure our case and death numbers are low here and not many of us know someone who has died from Covid…but I bet most of us know at least one or two people who have had significant and persistent adverse effects from the Pfizer product.
Do we just pretend that these people don't exist?
Because those protesters aren't.
Fuck off. I delayed my vaccination out of legitimate concern for side effects because I was too unwell last year, and I talked about the issue generally in 2021. You really have a problem with listening and comprehending nuance, and I'm not buying into this bullshit binary framing.
OMG, if I posted "I agree with weka" every time I agree with weka, I'd swamp Open Mike!
So I won't. Just take it for granted that "I agree with weka!"
And she has the patience of a saint.
I am immensely grateful that we have a government that doesn't base public health on your ignorant wishes.
I just wish the Government would at least try to reduce child deaths in driveways. Doing nothing is cruel and heartless. I see another child was killed in their driveway on New Year's Eve. That follows similar deaths in 2021.
Medical experts have been bringing this issue to the attention of policy-makers for at least 20 years. Do you think we'll ever have any politicians that have the political will and courage to address the problem?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/rotorua-daily-post/news/child-2-dies-after-rotorua-driveway-accident-family-member-steals-from-doctor-trying-to-save-childs-life/T74LM3KRWAIMSLWEP72CKLJQHE/
https://www.google.com/search?channel=trow5&client=firefox-b-d&q=public+health+child+deaths+driveways
It's a weird argument: protecting kids one way is bad because we don't resolve all other childhood deaths.
Preventing child deaths is a weird argument? Oh, that probably explains why politicians have ignored the issue…but in my lifetime I’d like to think we will see at least one politician who sees the benefits of reversing sensors on cars. It’s not rocket salad.
“The mortality rate from trauma to children in New Zealand may be relatively low compared with many developing nations, but when more appropriately compared with that of other OECD countries, New Zealand ranks the worst.
Our ongoing record with driveway accidents represents a “blackspot” in New Zealand’s attempts to create a safe environment for its children. It is to our shame that we have the highest reported rate of driveway accidents in the world.”
That was written by a paediatrician 20 years ago. There is no excuse for political inaction.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/26741577_Driveway_accidents_in_New_Zealand
don't be stupid mate. You know I hate people misreprenting what I say. If you can't make an argument, fine, but don't do that shit.
I think this comment by your friend shows as much about their non comprehension over the best practice for mask wearing as it does about the way the virus spreads.
Mask wearing in wellington in the situations your contact will have seen is because there are many situations in day to day Wellington outside that a person cannot maintain the recommended physical distancing
like
every single lunch time walking down LQ to get your lunch,
every time you go to the wharf or local pocket parks to eat your lunch
every single time you wait for a bus or train on a crowded bus stop/train platform.
Walking down the streets in the CBD at times is a mater of being shoulder to shoulder and ducking in and out of people. There is no room to spread out like in country towns. The people density does not allow it.
If you are outside but in a crowded situation within the aerosol transmission circle of someone with the virus wouldn't it be wise just to wear the mask as way of preventing spread? Usually if I am going out and about in my suburb it put the mask on, then you are prepared for all eventualities…….makes sense.
I must admit I am appalled at the stupid disregard for actions to designed protect oneself and others that is being shown at the protest.
Epidemiologist Rod Jackson said it would be "very surprising" if Covid-19 wasn’t spreading among the protesters, and their protest risked becoming a superspreader event with ramifications for the entire country.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300515562/covid19-nz-epidemiologists-warn-wellington-protest-could-help-omicron-spread
Is it uncommon for anti vaxxers in your circle to wear masks?
That mask wearing in risky situations would attract comment sounds as though it is either not understood or not practiced.
Hence my intuition telling me when we first started with the vaccines and masks that non mask wearers in situations where prudent people would wear a mask were likely to be unvaccinated and possibly 'live' was correct.
Then there is this view that I quoted yesterday from yesterday from a commentator who is giving careful views on the protest as it unfolds
Te Rangikaiwhiria Kemara
'One of the saddest thing is seeing protestors determined to spread the virus amongst each other, the enacting of the meta reality imported from the US that there is no virus, and that it is the vaccine that is the cause of mass deaths.'
Sorry Weka I am not able to get to link this again as I did yesterday. It just does not go to the individual tweet no matter what I do.
There's a comment from a reply on that twitter feed about a protestor called Amanda / Mandy who had the snuffles and a tickly throat and had tested positive to covid. And not wearing a mask, of course.
It's sure to become a super spreader event.
Putting the sheet over her head seemed unwise, but tell me how that should have been handled given they wanted to cover up her nakedness?
You're asking the wrong question. Police didn't need to cover her up if she's chosen to be naked. As I’ve said, being naked isn't a crime. If she had broken the law, police were entitled to arrest her in a non-violent manner. What law had she broken?
afaik all the arrests were because the crowd had been trespassed and refused to leave.
Not sure if they're also breaking any health orders.
Covering her up may be part of the arrest protocol and designed to make the arrest easier for the police and prevent issues of alleged sexual assault. No-one has the right to be naked while being arrested afaik. Let me know if they do.
I didn't see the incident but perhaps the police had reasons to believe she was not competent to make decisions for herself e.g. drunk, stoned etc.
I don't blame the police. The police have been put in an unenviable position.
I blame Trevor Mallard for pitting the police against the protesters.
Mallard is impulsive bully boy with a record of violence. Trevor Mallard is the wrong man, in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Let us hope that wiser heads prevail to get Trevor Mallard to rescind his trespass order.
The protestors are a hazard. Their cars/trucks/vans are blocking access ways and if there is any kind of emergency then it could become incredibly dangerous.
I agree these vehicles need to be moved as soon as possible. I can't believe that this has been allowed.
The Wellington City Council have a list of a approved tow truck companies. These contractors need to be given all the resources they need to carry out their lawful business.
That this hasn't been done is a failure of leadership.
Instead the authorities are gearing up for a direct confrontation with the protesters.
Leaving them with their vehicles almost seems that the authorities want them to stay so that the can stay so that we can have this confrontation.
How mature is that?
I agree Mallard is a bully. Completely unnecessary to put the sprinklers on – let alone through the night. Couldn't believe how stupid he can be. Idiot.
Typical from well-off people who think it is funny to treat the poor and unwell like shit. It is just part of that stick approach taken to welfare – policy and decisions made by people who live in well-off areas without any actual poor people.
I don't agree with the protestors but I agree even less with doing this sort of crap to them. Puerile.
yep, and it's like adding fuel to the fire of dissatisfaction with the government. Really stupid. It's also a crowd that understands the value of overcoming adversity and how that makes you stronger.
Do we know it was Mallard's decision or that he knew it was happening?
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-parliament-protest-sprinklers-turned-on-second-wave-convoy-en-route/3MKC44AVVFXXTGUATPSLMIFN7Q/
cheers. He's an idiot.
He has now ordered the loudspeakers at parliament to play Barry Manilow
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127757021/loud-music-blasted-to-deter-parliament-protesters-in-wellington
Complete imbecile,can see why there is gathering support for the protestors with a large gathering outside the CHCH police station today.
nek minit, ear plugs and headphones arrive.
What a numpty.
and dancing, lol.
Barry Manilow!…every public servant in Welly would have him in their collection…expect numbers to…swell.
Yep, Mallard is being a fool and lacks all strategy.
He'd be a lot better being the adult in the room, while those uninformed toddlers rage out on the grass.
The really stupid thing is that Mallard is doing what these demonstrators want. They want to draw the government into a confrontation.
Mallard is doing more damage to this government than the protesters.
It's a tragedy in the making that an intemperate bullyboy with a history of violence is the one calling the shots here.
I mean Trevor Mallard is someone you couldn't trust to hold down a fund raising cake stall without getting into a heated argument with a member of the public.
The Prime Minister needs to take Mallard aside and have a quiet word in his ear to cool it.
She'd have to choose the correct ear of course. Trevor is deaf in at least one of them. I'm not sure which one but he refers to it in Parliament quite often.
They dealt with it though, that's the main thing. Quickly made what look to me like well considered drains, not too big, just right for the job so far and capable of enlarging and extending if need be.
Came across this, watch the video the police descended into thuggery pretty quickly. They cop that stuck his knee on the womans head/neck was out of line was completely unnecessary she was already on the ground and covered.
https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zealand/2022/02/anti-mandate-convoy-videos-call-into-question-police-claims-of-very-professional-response-to-protest.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
if you watch carefully, she struggles and gets her arms free. He walks up calmly, then firmly but not violently holds her head on the ground so they can cuff her wrists. I'm guessing this is standard arrest technique in such a situation.
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. The knee on the back of head like that is not something I'm comfortable with nor the way she was dragged from the crowd…
On a brighter note bloody hilarious how Trevor's sprinkler stunt has backfired. Someones turned up with decoys and they're digging ponds and planting trees….
I don't know if either were warranted, I wasn't there. I'm guessing (because we can't see) that the knee was on the side of her head, not the back of it.
If she had resisted arrest and been punching or kicking the cops (out of sight of the video) what do you think they should have done to arrest her? The thing that interests me here is whether the arrests are legitimate and how much force shoud be used. In other words, are the people objecting doing so because they don't believe the arrests should be happening at all.
haha, awesome.
I think the sprinkler stunt was particularly petty and stupid – along the lines of 'never do an enemy a small injury'.
There was zero chance, that a sprinkle of water (especially in Wellington and with the weather forecast!) was going to deter committed protestors.
All, he's done is given them an opportunity to turn it into a PR stunt, and make him look ineffectual.
I don't know what actually happened. How long were the sprinklers on? Does seem stupid, petty and an own goal.
Apparently, all night (lawn sprinklers). Protestors put road cones over the outlets to contain the water.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-parliament-protest-sprinklers-turned-on-second-wave-convoy-en-route/3MKC44AVVFXXTGUATPSLMIFN7Q/
oh, all night, I had heard they were on briefly. Thanks. Yeah, that was stupid. I've actually got increasing respect for the protestors around their ability to adapt and that they've stayed so long. This is impressive for people that are not used to protesting.
Had they just put up with it and not dug trenches and disturbed the root base they would be perhaps ankle deep in an unpleasant but manageable mud bath. Dollars to donuts they're now past ankle deep in an absolute quagmire with mud from arsehole to breakfast and the more they move around trying to do something about it, the worse it'll get.
Apparently not.
from https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/127757021/loud-music-blasted-to-deter-parliament-protesters-in-wellington
I think the sprinkler stunt was particularly petty and stupid
The Wellington City Council has a partial ban on sprinkler use. If the water restrictions don't apply to Trevor, then why should they apply to anyone else? The covidiot is setting a great example.
https://wellington.govt.nz/climate-change-sustainability-environment/water/water-restrictions
Another interesting fact. An aptronym that matched the occupation of the lawn by the lady who declared she would 'divorce her husband for getting the booster because he'll die you know" Name Anne Looney. (Was in the Granny)
Without doubt she is quite unwell, personally I don't think she should have been featured like she has nor named. I suspect it's going to be very detrimental to her long term. Also an example of MSM going out of their way to be cast the protesters in a bad light.
Also an example of how the stresses of Covid can effect peoples mental health and family situations very badly. She needed empathy not ridicule.
I didn't pick up that she was unwell, but completely agree about the potential impact on her if she is highly stressed.
Speculation on my part, but given how distressed she seemed and a longer cut of the "voxpop" I saw she was convinced that he was going to die from the vax.
To get to that point I feel it likely there are mental health issues at play.
I haven't seen the longer version. I have friends that believe mass people are going to die from the covid vaccine this year. I don't think they are mentally unwell. I'm not sure how to think about it tbh.
Another interesting fact…
[deleted]
The division began that day Patricia Bremner, and Ardern initiated it.
Families are being fractured over this….for no scientific reason.
[assertions of fact without links or backup deleted. You’re just back from a ban for the same thing, at some point my patience will run out again, but currently people get one chance and then I just delete. You’ve had yours – weka
mod note. You might also want to read this as you were away when it went up.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/some-notes-on-moderation/
assertions of fact without links or backup deleted.
Sorry about that…I got criticised the last time I linked to these but it is with extreme delight that I will post again .
Lest we forget.
A way that we could keep vaccinated people safe from those who have not been.
Vaccinations are our armour. They help keep us safe.
So my message to the New Zealanders who have not yet had their first dose – if you want summer, if you want to go to bars and restaurants. Get vaccinated. If you want to get a haircut. Get vaccinated. If you want to go to a concert, or a festival – get vaccinated. If you want to go to a gym, or a sports events, get vaccinated.
If you are not vaccinated, there will be everyday things you will miss out on.
And if you are vaccinated you can be assured that in the new framework, you will get to enjoy the things you love, secure in the knowledge that the people around you, and the environment you are in, is as safe as possible in a COVID world.
If you have done the right thing to keep yourself and others safe, to look after one another, you should feel safe. You should be protected from those who haven’t made that choice.
https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/prime-minister-jacinda-arderns-speech-notes-covid-19-protection-framework
we've been here before. I don't care if you get criticised. I care that you continually make assertions of fact and don't back them up. You've sucked up a lot of moderator time (not just mine) on this alone in the past year. Every time you want to make an assertion of fact, back it up with a link and a quote and an explanation.
For anyone who yearns to get to some other place, see if you can stay still watching this one:
Masaka Kids Africana Dancing To Jerusalema By Master KG Feat Nomcebo & Burna Boy – YouTube
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/127753866/the-people-behind-the-capital-protest-many-adamant-days-on
interesting interviews with the protesters.
A lesbian couple, one of whom had lost her job as a bee keeper due to mandates. Same with a physiotherapist from Northland.
And a women, with the somewhat unfortunate surname of Looney…..she is willing to lose her longstanding marriage as her husband is pro vaccination. These people are unlikely to be deterred by rain
I really have no idea of what is the best way forward with this situation. My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.
That just shows the level of selfish we are dealing with, wanting to visit your 86 year old grandmother unvaxed and untested.
Yes she looks like she's straight from the Trump loving, hard right kind of selfish 🙄 Perhaps she just wants to kill grandma?
You do know that vaccination and testing aren't a barrier to the virus right?
you do know how they (and other tools) reduce risk right?
If another family member is vaccinated and therefore doesn't require testing before visiting grandma, does that reduce or increase grandma's risk?
the vaccinated person is less likely to have covid than the unvaccinated person, and thus is less of a risk. From memory they’re also likely to have a lower viral load if they are infected and asymptomatic.
If the unvaxxed person doesn't want to get vaccinated, they can reduce their risk to their grandmother by getting tested before visiting.
They should all be doing things like fitted masks, distancing, good ventilation, spending time outside if possible, monitoring symptoms, hand/face hygiene, and so on.
What is so difficult to understand about that? Do people really not understand risk assessment and reduction?
weka, I've been looking (albeit sporadically) for the difference between vaccinated people and unvaccinated people getting Covid, and can't find a definitive comparison.
The government Covid website specifically refers to:
They don't say that vaccination protects against infection – just symptomatic infection.
Looking specifically at the risk of transmission, there may be some benefit, but its only a suggestion. There is no statement here on the difference on the shedding of asymptomatic vaccinated people, vs infected non-vaccinated people. In reality, I think the self-care of symptomatic un-vaccinated would result in their removal from the public anyway. More harm may actually be done by asymptomatic infections, unknowingly participating in their usual life.
I think it is understandable that people are interpreting this in such a way to question the evidence weight behind continuing vaccine passports and mandates.
I’m probably going to exit the commenting soon, just heading out. But would be interested if you did have a link to data on the difference, and would appreciate your thoughts on the result of health care etc on symptomatic people restricting movement and wider infections.
I have looked at the Mystery's websites, often, and have found a dearth of actual peer reviewed research (other than Pfizer/BionTech or Astra Zeneca publications) to support any of their statements.
Hope you are well and the heat is not too taxing. Just got a call from young tane who traveled to Welly overnight. He was there last week as part of the Convoy, and returned North for work. He says that even the dogs are friendly…with each other and the humans. He has $$$ to donate to those providing basic support for the team and is struggling to unload them. So much donated stuff from so many Kiwis all over the rohe. Looks like my donation will go to the guys who are providing the portaloos. History being made here.
that side of the protest is impressive. I really hope they can build off this in terms of organising and looking after people for the long term. There's serious community building potential here alongside whatever politics are being worked on.
Here's a MoH update from December 2021. "She's pretty big job!"
http://covid-19vaccine.createsend1.com/t/ViewEmail/i/760764CC64FD17D92540EF23F30FEDED
If you scroll down to the "Resources and Subscriptions" panel near the end, then there are some useful links, e.g.
https://covid.immune.org.nz/
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-vaccines/covid-19-vaccine-resources
https://www.medsafe.govt.nz/COVID-19/covid-landing.asp
I would express the belief that "Every vaccination brings us closer, together", but understand that not everyone can take part. The quantity of evidence of risks associated with COVID-19 infection is mind-boggling. The benefits of COVID-19 infection are more difficult to discern. Indeed it appears that several million people have perished due to COVID-19 infection – a global tragedy.
NZ’s Misery of Health is a small outfit in the global scheme of things. https://beckerguides.wustl.edu/covid19/vaccine
This is a useful resource for COVID-19 vaccine-related literature.
https://www.uptodate.com/contents/covid-19-vaccines
This looks good too:
https://asm.org/COVID/COVID-19-Research-Registry/Home
For example, it has a link to a recent paper on cardiovascular outcomes of COVID-19 (pre-Omicron) highlighted by swordfish @20:
Now that's 50 seconds of my life I'll not get back. I call for peer reviewed scientific papers about Pfizer product safety and efficacy and you send me on a click- bait level nos dive into more fluff.
Sheesh. I expected better from you Drowsy "Unite for Covid" M. Kram. At least a link to a Scientific American pharma funded puff piece.
Sorry to have wasted 50 seconds of your life Rosemary. I suspected none of those 9 links would meet your rigourous scientific standards, although why this is the case remains a mystery of misinformation.
If you're looking for information on how awful the Covid-19 vaccines are, then I can't help you at the moment. When I come across peer-reviewed research showing that the mRNA vaccines are in fact pure poison then I'll be sure to shunt it your way without delay, and report that rascally Dr Ramanathan to the Medical Council of NZ while I'm at it.
Sheesh!
It's complex and I see it as risk assessment and choosing the best path given a range of intersecting issues and tools. But, on the issue of infection by omicron, vaccinated vs unvaccinated, afaik the chances of getting covid are higher in unvaccinated people (and this in turn affects transmission rates in the two groups)
eg (random google search)
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00283-4
I interpret that as vaccination has a useful efficacy when used alongside the other tools like the NZ govt is doing. Anti-vaxxers interpret that as it being useless or almost useless.
The issue is actually whether the degree of overall efficacy of all of our response justifies the mandates. I think it does at this stage. I think we could and should have looked after people who were badly affected by the mandates far better than we have, financially, careers, socially and so on. It's not a simple mandate vs no mandate situation for me.
NZ is in unique situation in terms of omicron and covid generally. We are pioneering ways that not many other countries have done or been able to.
Almost no-one is talking about long covid. That's one of the biggest motivators for me in terms of my position on the NZ response. I don't care if people don't want to be vaccinated, I do care if they want other people to not be, or if they want omicron to run free. It's alarmingly negligent.
also, most of what I see from the let it rip crowd is based on the impact on individuals and doesn't seem to understand what public health is. For me the implications collectively are blinding.
“My main concern is that this will be a superspreader event and it wii go really badly for our system down here.”
Don't worry about that. I understand there is some concern that the Omicron outbreak might not peak soon enough, and we could reach the peak during winter when there is lots of other bugs around and hospitals tend to be quite full anyway.
So a super spreader event that speeds the process up might not be a bad thing.
Concern by who?
We might also find that we don't peak but have a slow spread over the year. Or maybe we have a steady rise then fall over the next few months rather than the sharp peak that was anticipated. Or maybe it's all about to break loose this month. Precaution serves us well here, if people are willing to play their part.
if you want the certain risk of people to dying, becoming disabled, and the large negative impacts on the health system.
For instance:
"An epidemiologist in Australia is warning New Zealand's Omicron approach is overcautious and may mean the variant is active in the community for longer than it has been elsewhere."
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/460906/nz-covid-19-omicron-strategy-too-cautious-epidemiologist
"The biggest headache with battling Omicron in the colder months, of course, was that health services would be already stretched dealing with winter ills like the flu or RSV, which caused a national crisis last year."
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/explained-why-the-timing-of-omicrons-arrival-matters/O4OUNGNDNM2MA5ACRVN75OB5LE/
In light of those comments, I guess we don't know if a super spreader event would be a good thing or a bad thing taking everything into account. I guess time will tell.
Ta.
From the first link,
Are there places where omicron is no longer active?
I don't know about "no longer active".
But from coverage I have seen in other countries, the tendency of fast moving viruses like Omicron is to rapidly infect lots of people until it becomes progressively harder to find people who haven't experienced the virus. So, it doesn't necessarily mean no-one gets it anymore, though, who knows, it might.
But quite possibly just that the number of new infections becomes so small it is no longer a problem.
If we can be at that sort of level by winter, then it is probably what the authorities are looking for I expect.
Though getting the balance right between not overwhelming the health system now vs not overwhelming it in winter is not going to be easy I expect.
do you really want NZ public health to be based on maybes and possibly and quite likely?
So far as the progression of Omicron, does anyone have anything much better than that?
yes.
It seems like modellers seem all over the place with this.
Probably the best that can be done is prepare for a variety of possible scenarios.
So, I would call that educated guesswork.
Or not.
wtf is Hooton on about?
He's bragging.
He thinks he's bragging but it's a case of not knowing how how much he doesn't know.
do you really want NZ public health to be based on maybes and possibly and quite likely?
But the Crown debt has soared on the basis that we could have had 38,000 deaths based on various assumptions which were wrong. Should we be spending billions of dollars, that we don't have, based on assumptions, maybes and possibilities? How will you feel when we experience cuts to health, education and welfare to address this indebtedness?
Citation needed for both the 38,000 deaths claim, and that their 'assumptions' were wrong. I'm only asking once before I step into moderation mode.
Ah yes, more goalpost moving and circular reasoning.
They were wrong because the response to COVID-19 took these assumptions into account so as to prevent that level of harm. What should we have done instead? How many deaths are you prepared to accept?
That's the fallacy of begging the question. Why would there be a need for cuts to these services?
I believe you are a bad faith commenter though I suppose it is possible you are simply a bit thick.
Australia, huh.
//
The head of Australia’s peak aged care body has linked New South Wales premier Dominic Perrottet’s decision to lift Covid restrictions late last year to the deaths of hundreds of aged care residents.
Appearing before a NSW parliamentary inquiry into the government’s response to Covid-19 on Friday, the chief executive of Aged and Community Services Australia, Paul Sadler, said his organisation – which represents not-for-profit aged care homes – had in December raised the risks posed to the sector from a widespread lifting of restrictions once cases of Omicron began appearing in the community.
“Of course what happened was the premier made the decision to continue down the pathway of opening up and within days the number of outbreaks in residential [facilities] skyrocketed and there are now hundreds of deaths in NSW in aged care since that decision was taken,” Sadler said.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/feb/11/nsw-decision-to-lift-covid-restrictions-linked-to-hundreds-of-aged-care-deaths
Of course it will be active for longer. We're back to "flattening the curve". Fucksake. Less harm over a longer period, vs the utter shit we see overseas.
This is what I mean when I say is it ignorance* or disingenuous. It's like people are just making up what the pandemic response is and then arguing against their phantom pandemic response.
*has to be willful at this point, although I concede that people are stressed and feeling attacks on dearly held principles.
as an aside, do you know if there is reliable reporting on the Otago covid positive cases and where they are? I've got the locations of interest map, but the MoH still seems to be logging cases by DHB. Can't quite figure out where the MSM are getting specific locations for actual cases from.
No idea. The lack of LoI for the Dunedin case suggests they went to maybe Q'town and got a positive result on return. Maybe it's in the live briefings? Haven't watched one of those for months lol
I wonder if she had taken her husband's name when she married him?
The she would be able to say "My husband is a Looney. He proved it when he got vaccinated. I want a divorce.".
If she is convinced her husband is going to die because of the jab, why does she need a divorce?
I think some people seem unable to appreciate that we are in a Global pandemic. Our sacrifices have been so few compared to people who went through for example WW 2.
A correction on my earlier comment…should have been it will go really badly for the health system down here. My bottom line is always the poor nurses and doctors whose health and lives are at risk due to covid and the stress and burnout that will come from managing the burgeoning workload that is yet to come.
if they really don’t want to get faxed, that is their choice. But how about lying low so you don’t spread the virus? Some of us are already doing that anyway, even though we are boosted.
A great piece of economic writing by James Galbraith that
Contrary to simplistic neoliberal idealism
It looks at some of the world economies that have retained an industrial focus that limits the asset stripping tendencies of predatory finance and also the logic of BRI infrastructure building in a resource constrained world. He treats the economy as having the same form as a biophysical system,
On climate change
On the military
The rain is going to absolutely pound down on the wellington lynch mob tonight
protestors will probably get wet too.
Doubt it will make them go away.
They threatened torrential rain since yesterday and have had piss all really here in Johnsonville.
They can tend to over gild the lily weather wise with Wellington.
Don't get me wrong. It can hammer it down big time here and sound like a thousand people hitting your roof, but just ain't looking likely that bad atm.
This storm is coming from the tropics. So, if it is anything like here in Christchurch, it is wet but quite warm. So, the protesters may be able to tolerate that.
If anything, it might wash away the faeces and urine they have been excreting.
If it was similar rain driven by a howling southerly they might not be so keen on staying.
Oh I really hope so
first pounding due in 30.. next and best potentially mega-pounding 3am.. yahoo.!.
bloody Brian the tamaki messiah will proly claim it haha
For the Deadheads.
@Lunaxmusic covers Truckin' on the Korean gayageum.
https://www.youtube.com/hashtag/deadcoversproject
Don't particularly get into the actual mandate protesters actions.
Though I must admit I agree with them.
Personally think it was just a needs must thing at the time, but the govt better actually for once plan a time to turf them.
I think the one thing I learnt from this whole thing is Mallard is an even bigger prick than I thought. My low opinion of him managed to sink even lower. Which I didn't actually think was possible.
Yes, I don't agree with the mandate thing either, though I am fully vaxxed myself.
I think there were other options, such as requiring unvaxxed to take regular RAT tests to keep their jobs, especially in non-essential industries.
I think the vaccine mandate thing has definitely created a two-tier society that I don't think any of us should be proud of.
It basically just created a divisional them and us thing.
I am no Einstein, but to not see it was going to obviously happen is fricken dim imho
Should probably mentioned I am vaxed as well.
I have nearly finished watching an excellent docu-drama on Netflix: "The Lost Pirate Kingdom". It is really worth a watch.
I didn't realise up until seeing this how democratic the pirate society was; for instance, sailors sharing an equal division of the plunder and having the right to vote off the captain if they didn't think he was doing a good job.
And how much they did to disrupt the slave trade and set a lot of slaves free and gave them a comparatively much better life as equals in their society.
In the light of history, the pirates were probably a lot better than the British elite at the time.
I'd actually forgotten about that. Was reading about it years ago and was really interesting.
She was literally doesn't matter who, get the same booty.
Didn't know about the slave bit though.
''I didn't realise up until seeing this how democratic the pirate society was; for instance, sailors sharing an equal division of the plunder.''
Please don't tempt me, TS. There's nothing worse than having Weka on my tail with her moderating wand.
There's an excellent book on the pirates protodemocracy, covering the life of the Dread Pirate Roberts who was mentioned in The Princess Bride.
If a Pirate I Must Be: The True Story of Black Bart, "King of the Caribbean Pirates" by Richard Sanders (goodreads.com)
So this movie is an authentic historical account is it?
You must have enjoyed 'Pirates of the Caribbean' …you old…swashbuckler.
Hard to know how accurate any account of history is, though they do seem to have quite a few historical experts contributing to this.
I did watch the "Black Sails" series awhile back which was a blend of history and myth.
Now here's a pirate for you, far better than the British elite. Grace O'Malley, Grainne Uaile.
https://www.irishpost.com/life-style/irelands-pirate-queen-twelve-fascinating-facts-about-legendary-grace-omalley-129406
Being a pirate in conflict with the English invaders and a woman, she didn't get a good historical press for a long time.
Strong women leaders tend not to…….
It absolutely is the most fascinating history. The best book I have read on the topic is "The Many Headed Hydra: Sailors, Slaves, Commoners, and the Hidden History of the Revolutionary Atlantic"
It begins with the wreck of the Sea-Venture the real life story of the Puritanical rejection of Paradise in the form of the uninhabited island of Bermuda in favour of starvation and death in the new colony forming in Virginia.
The chapter Hydrarchy: Sailors, Pirates, and the Maritime State :
Have a look at Black Sails, a series that was on Starz a while back. An excellent drama about the democracy and shenanigans of piracy. Great production value, well acted, a bit fleshy in places, but that tapers off.
Heart-disease risk soars after COVID — even with a mild case (nature.com)
(Published a few days ago … but presumably a pre-Omicron study)
Scary stuff. Also from that study:
Those claiming the effects of COVID are no worse than a bad cold might want to rethink their position on that.
From the same website: Long-COVID symptoms less likely in vaccinated people, Israeli data say.
Given the study conditions, much of the data for that one could even be pre-Delta. Will be interesting to see what sort of effect Omicron has here.
That's pretty hard to argue with … so noone has (so far). An important, high quality piece of evidence.
If the left would like to talk about something other than COVID for a change here's something: Winz hold times are now regularly over two hours with no call back option (I waited 90 minutes on Thursday) take a look at MSDs Facebook pages mentions and comments, it's wide spread.
If unemployment is at 3% and historically low how come MSD call times are historically high? Could it be someone's playing silly buggers and putting beneficiaries on sickness benefits instead of unemployment and counting an hour of work a week as fully employed to air brush the stats? Of course it is.
Also Swarbrick is warming on me, I've criticized her a lot in the past but she continues to be the only person I really hear on the left talking left wing economics.
The greens should make her a co-leader and scrap the cooperation agreement with Labour and scoop up angry labour voters by attacking labour from the left, perhaps saving labour from itself and ensuring a third term and also force labours attention to the economic issues labours people actually face which largely are being ignored as "it's a global phenomenon" yes but all politics is local. Blocking your ears won't help.
Millennials, gen z, average workers, renters, beneficiaries, pensioners and everyone in between are getting angry and feeling hopeless and like they are going backwards and feel the govt doesn't hear them or worse care.
Inflation groceries rent it's just too much and much of what we hear from the govt is them ruling things out and then saying we're not ruling anything out then ruling them out again.
As important as the COVID response is its now starting to feel like the left hides behind it to distract from horrific housing and inequality and inflation.
If National was in power right now those anti vax mandate protesters wouldn't be on the lawn of parliament because there'd be no room, wed all be protesting the Tories disgusting, irresponsible and inadequate response to housing, living costs and inequality.
This is going to be one hell of a rough winter for Labour and this coming budget needs to be a damn good one to address inflation, housing, poverty and loving costs in NZ and it needs to be a lot better than the min wage rise (which was a nice start)
With inflation rising and our cities running out of houses to rent (front page of press today only 670 houses in chch are available to rent, all the new builds sit empty) this could well be labours own winter of discontent.
Hopefully Labour acts, if they don't hopefully the greens push them. This winter could be when the tides turn and I for one am terrified of a nat govt that unlike Key has to rely on act votes. It will be Ruth Richardson economics all over again.
Pull finger labour.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/covid-19-omicron-outbreak-greens-chloe-swarbrick-calls-for-economic-response-inquiry/CXBYI2E2IO6K2EZWA2HY56XMEM/
Here is a question:
Is there a point where the rate of infection doesn't matter anymore and getting through it as fast as possible becomes more important?
Obviously it is far better for the health system etc to remain in a state where it is able to cope with the infections without a problem.
But perhaps it could reach a tipping point where "letting it rip" as fast as possible becomes a better scenario.
For instance, if the health system is overwhelmed by 5000 people, it probably wouldn't make any difference if it were overwhelmed by 10000 people. But, at least with 10000 people it probably means the virus is moving a lot faster hence we get through it quicker and return to normality faster. But at say 5000 people it might mean the health system stays overwhelmed for longer hence could lead to worse outcomes overall.
No. You're doing a lot of reading and thinking. I'd suggest adding long covid to that. Read what doctors are saying including the specialists eg heart, brain or kidney doctors. Read the research reports and people talking about the broader implications eg on workforce.
Long covid isn't the only factor in this, but its the one being consistently missed in people's analysis.
Btw, what do you think the normal is that we would return to if we let omicron move through unrestricted at some point?
You can start here, scroll through and look for the doctors, researchers and people with LC.
https://twitter.com/search?q=%23longcovid&src=typed_query
Thanks. I will have a look through that.
Yeah it does. Overexhaustion of a system isn't a binary state, it gets progressively worse.
Triage deprioritises patients less likely to survive. The worse the overwhelming, the higher that line goes in the "who gets the oxygen" game.
Then there's the gap between "treating everyone" and "locking the doors, turning people away": fewer people providing more palliative care and services like bathing. Infected bed sores, DVT, malnourishment. Scutari all over again, despite best efforts. Or send 'em home to unprepared and possibly ill relatives/flatties to do their best?
Then there's trying to source tents, freezer containers, etc when industry is moderately affected vs trying to source them when the factories are shut and the trucks aren't moving.
Case studies of overwhelmed systems have massive differences in severity according to how much they're overwhelmed. It starts with the postponing of scheduled surgeries. It ends… pretty bad.
And that's just the short term situation, let alone long covid (which is almost beginning to look, if one squints, like rheumatic fever/heart disease – but I ain't a clinician).
I think your suggestion would lead to a far higher death toll but
" we get through it quicker and return to normality "
Different set of values to mine I guess.
Not a suggestion. A genuine question.
I'm still not sure what you mean by normality. Are you thinking that the first big wave of omicron would pass through and then we'd return to a pre-2020 state?
To a state where the community is either vaccinated or has some natural immunity against future infection hence can start to drop the emergency measures we have now.
I think it will be a long time before we get back to a pre-2020 state.
ok, thanks. I'm not sure I've understood your position in that case.
Afaik there is no evidence yet that omicron will prompt natural immunity across the population.
There does seem to be some evidence that vaccine and exposure helps, but that has to be weighed up against the LC data, which we don't have yet for omicron.
Or we get a much more effective vaccine. I have no idea how likely that is given most countries are engaged in responses that promote new variants.
I think full normality won't return for awhile for a number of reasons.
Probably one of the big ones is that travel insurance companies will have to feel confident that the can cover Covid in their policies. Until then it is going to be very dodgy to travel overseas.
Once we have a vaccine similar to the flu vaccine that is updated every year, we will probably be back to full normality. It wouldn't surprise me if it becomes an all-in-one jab. So, both for Covid and the general flu.
From Naked Capitalism:
McFlock explains why it is a bad idea very well. I don't /didn't have the energy to expand on why it is.
Thankyou McFlock
Do you mean BAU / normal?
A reminder of how a protest can work:
2004: Foreshore & Seabed Hikoi (huge, peaceful, and able to build broad support). Maori Party formed.
2005: Maori Party win seats, enter Parliament.
2008: Maori Party gain Ministerial portfolios. John Key's government scrap F&S Act.
Now, it's certainly debatable whether TPM subsequently got as much as they could have, from 2008-17. But that's not the issue here.
The point is, they successfully moved from protest to lawmaking.
If the protesters at Parliament are correct and they do have widespread public support (specifically on the mandates) then it should not be too hard to get 5% of the vote.
If they really feel that freedom is under threat, and a fundamental principle is at stake, just as the F & S protesters did, then they should organise and test their support at the ballot box. They already know that no party in Parliament is going to take up their cause, so like Turia and Labour, there is no point working within a party that totally rejects (even despises) them.
The risk, of course, is that when you stand for election, there's a rude awakening. Unlike an online echo chamber, you find out how many supporters you really have.
But with all their alleged "support from ordinary Kiwis", that's a risk worth taking, isn't it?
I reckon that's why Winston is courting them on twitter. It might be enough to get him back into parliament – especially up Northland way.
The larger parties arre trying to avoid any connection to them (despite the occasional useless MP) because they could lose 10% to gain that 3-5% or whatever. If you have voters to lose, the extreme fringe is more costly than it's worth.
But if you have very few voters and not a huge amount of principles against that fringe… why not make that gamble?
Winston's problem here is that the traditional NZF member (if any remain) thinks protesters in general should be in chain gangs.
lol it's a gamble, for sure.
It is a gamble though as many of these nutters will be in the "oh no i don't vote, it only encourages them" crowd.
But yes Winston does have nothing to lose.
So, sort of like how Jamie Lee Ross shacked up with Advance NZ.
My take on the convoy and protest is that it's out of the same swamp that spawned Advance NZ, and attracting the same supporters.
The Maori Party entered Parliament in 2004 when Tariana Turia won the Te Tai Hauauru by-election after having resigned as a Minister and MP.
Correct, but it was a condensed version. 2005 was the breakthrough, because new MPs.
Observer, excuse my ignorance but can you tell me the understanding of both parties to the state of the ownership of the Foreshore and Seabed. I do remember Peter Dunne and Nick Smith knee deep in water in Nelson somewhere demanding that the crown do not cede control of the f/s. (Then there was the Iwi/Kiwi campaign from Orewa. It forced the Labour government to act.) The Maori party formed. They eventually got an accommodation with the National/ACT coalition. And you say the F/S act was repealed, so what were the gains for Tangata Whenua out of all of it. Just a repeal of the act. Thus where do the two partners to the Treaty stand on this now. Muddied waters?
From the outside, I'd say the gains were less than they should have been, Sharples and Turia did not rock the boat enough. But that's for the Maori Party voters to decide, not me (they rejected the party in 2017, but of course they are back now).
So … no responses from any commenters here who support the protesters, or at least want to present them in a positive light.
There is no long-term plan at all, is there? The government won't change its position (you must have worked that out by now) and you're not willing to try and change the government (by standing at the election).
That's what protests set out to do: change the current policy, or replace the policy-makers. Politicians change their policies because they want votes (it beggars belief that this has to be explained to you, but you do seem to live in an alternative reality).
Groundswell have a clear goal: Labour out, National in (not explicit, but obvious). On the other side, so do climate change protesters: pressure on Labour and the Greens, based on polls which show widespread support for stronger action on climate change.
I ask again: if this matters so much, what is the end-game? Having a party in the rain?
So fed up with people here sympathising with the selfish, rude, loud, trouble making, obnoxious protesters. The protesters have zero concern for anyone else's rights, (but go on endlessly about their rights) or other people's ability to go about their daily life without hindrance. They are causing major damage to parliamentary property, but could not care less. If a bedraggled bunch of lawbreakers damaged their property or belongings they would be the first to squeal and loudly. They are breaking numerous laws and local body laws by parking anywhere, everywhere from footpaths to blocking access ways. And don't give a damn.
Their lack of reasoning and common sense and being so easily manipulated is a sad burden on the rest of society. They don't deserve to be treated by medical staff when/if they get Covid. But those same medical people will have to look after these and turn a blind eye to their idiocy.
… and the small crowd being entertained by the "bike-burn-out" producing toxic fumes for them to inhale (one of them with cigarette in hand). I wonder if she was there protesting "they ain't gonna put no dangerous poisons into my body, No Way!"
and the small crowd….
And the other 19,990( or however many) were not being entertained by Brian's Burnout Boyz.
Rosemary, did you actually read the comment? I do not see the relevance of your comment.
I did read your comment, and Reality's. My point is that it is so easy, and wrong, to focus on a small group enjoying arseholish behaviour whilst ignoring the the vast majority being respectful and polite.
Now, I guess you're enjoying Mallard's latest stunt?
True leader that man.
Stop trying to bullshit us. We've all watched the live footage. Every time someone performs an arsehole act the rest of the crowd cheers and claps. As for Mallard's latest stunt… at least he's trying to do something. The police are just pussy footing around as far as I can see.
Maybe Dovi can send them packing overnight.
Godalmighty Anne…you'd have the cops drive them out boots and all after what went down on Tuesday? Where's the kindness? Nevermind the optics.
Bring your knitting.
Catch up Anne…the rest of the world is moving on. Do the decent thing and stop making it all about the elderly and vulnerable. You've had your shots, you wear the mask du jour….settle down and let the young folk get on with their lives.
I agree. It doesn't help anyone to represent the protestors as all misbehaving or arseholes.
I did not represent them all as misbehaving or arseholes. I made the observation that a majority – in some instances – have applauded the misbehaviour. Eg. the jeering and insults directed at the constables on duty. Its certain some of them will have disapprpoved in which case I hope they have removed themselves from the scene.
How can you possible draw from my comment that I endorse Mallard's buffoonish behaviour – where he is giving the protest oxygen. He is a fool.
However, it is equally a bit strong for you to suggest that everyone at that demonstration is honourable and peaceful and informed about the vaccines.
I think there is a penalty of instant loss of DL for wheel spinning (loss of traction) on public roads.
If there is, why is it not being applied.
Musk and his fanboys deserve neuro-linking to their fucking cars.
Neuralink’s brain chips — which Musk claims will one day make humans hyper-intelligent and let paralyzed people walk again — were implanted in monkeys’ brains during a series of tests at the University of California, Davis from 2017 to 2020, according to a compliant from the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine filed with the the US Department of Agriculture on Thursday.
In one example, a monkey was allegedly found missing some of its fingers and toes “possibly from self-mutilation or some other unspecified trauma.” The monkey was later killed during a “terminal procedure,” the group said in a copy of the complaint shared with The Post.
In another case, a monkey had holes drilled in its skull and electrodes implanted into its brain, then allegedly developed a bloody skin infection and had to be euthanized, according to the complaint.
[…]
“Pretty much every single monkey that had had implants put in their head suffered from pretty debilitating health effects,” Jeremy Beckham, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine’s research advocacy director, told The Post. “They were, frankly, maiming and killing the animals.”
The macabre report comes as Neuralink plans to begin its first human tests. Musk said in December that he wants to start human trials for the devices in 2022 and the company posted a job listing for a clinical trial director this January.
https://nypost.com/2022/02/10/elon-musks-neuralink-allegedly-subjected-monkeys-to-extreme-suffering/
bunch of fucking sociopaths.
They work!
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7106e1.htm
Lotsa people going to find out just how effective their immune system is.
Yes, that crowd better be up to date with their Vit D, Vit C (lypo-spheric form), Zinc and Colloidal Sliver. And maybe have their fingers crossed.
I thought the rain would thin the protesters out. It hasn't happened. That means the governments immune system is about to be tested.
Gonna be a long night
Crikey, that's some heavy precipitation. The wind is getting up, too. The only thing making it bearable is the temperature. That may change with the chill factor?
SE @40kph/12C by mid-morning. Hope they take the kids home soon.
https://www.metservice.com/towns-cities/locations/wellington
Protests happening in Christchurch.
12C from midday tomorrow until Monday morning. That's not fun when wet and it's windy. Doable if they’re organised, but the potential for covid spread is worse (or getting sick generally)
Just read a credible sounding piece on twitter where a young woman sitting in the practice defensive circle had a cough and a tickle throat and was awaiting a test result. It came through as positive.
So assuming it to be true, there will be many cross infections.
Her name was Amanda.
Was at Whitney [email protected] Replying to @Te Taipo 3:40 pm.
Someone posted it elsewhere in OM. Wouldn't surprise me, but it's a rumour at this point.
Also Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine are two other placebos they should have on hand.
If this were the States from whence most of the anti vaxx dis- & mis-information is coming from on social media, it is useful to have an army of people sending prayers covering all medical procedures once these occur. Of course, not just any prayers are useful, only those to an evangelical & possibly TV based preacher to God with $$$$ lubrication are really useful.
The rain is bucketing down here. Very heavy. I really hope the leadership is sensible. Nothing is worth being sick from exposure from.
A kind Government would ensure all protesters were warm and dry, or dried-off and warmed-up, to show they care for us all.
I expect this will happen tomorrow.
Protesters refusing assistance will look ridiculous, in the eyes of the general public.
Trevor Mallard will/could order such assistance to be provided.
The public will love him for it 🙂
he'll be throwing bin bags out the window in the morning.
I was being a little facetious.
But having researched and used everything under the sun for the last thirty years out of necessity, I have a fair idea what works, and what doe not.
Let's start with Vitamin C.
.
Double posted.
Anyone seen an explanation (from police or someone who knows what they are talking about) as to why the police haven't stopped people coming into the camp, or bringing in supplies like tents? Yes, it's going to rain heavily and get colder overnight, but those that tough it out will hold the place and then others can come back tomorrow with supplies and numbers.
Pretty much what I asked yesterday morning.
.https://thestandard.org.nz/open-mike-11-02-2022/#comment-1860749
God, I sound like Blade.
I've seen no explanation for why they haven't secured the site and have continued to allow people to come and go and bring more stuff in. Puzzling.
They seem keen to forestall a Feb 6 clone but apart from that yeah, nah.
Please try and be original. I don't want YOU sounding like me.
Don't worry it won't happen again. I was shocked myself.
They've bolstered the barriers on the forecourt and to the side of Parliament because apparently protesters were coming on site behind them from Hill Street, but apart from that, seems she's wide open.
if I put the covid risk to the community aside, this is actually good. They're letting the protest happen and they're doing what they need to to protect parliament itself.
A protester casually walked alongside the orange barriers, flicked out the joining peg and picked up the whole block easily just off the ground and wandered on to the next one.
I thought those orange blocks were very heavy but they are no way to stop anyone.
The fences aren't very high. It's always been an open site where Wgtns could go and have lunch on a sunny day as well. There's a playground for the kids. Unfortunately all I think this is going to do is make it become a fortress because this crap can't happen again.
The glacial approach to sending them packing has aided their cause immeasurably. The govt. is basically letting a Tea Party build itself on its front lawn.
I reckon they're allowing them to fill the space.
Kettling (also known as containment or corralling)[1] is a police tactic for controlling large crowds during demonstrations or protests. It involves the formation of large cordons of police officers who then move to contain a crowd within a limited area. Protesters either leave through an exit controlled by the police, leave through an uncontrolled gap in the cordons, or are contained, prevented from leaving, and arrested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kettling
But they're not containing them that's the point. They are protecting Parliament buildings but the frontages to Molesworth Street and I guess Lambton Quay do not seem to have any police presence. From the live feed people are coming and going as they please.
The police never put all their cards on the table and nor would I expect them to but considering the situation has any news media asked them why they have not contained the protest site?
only thing I've seen is a brief mention that the police aren't just letting the protest runs it course, or some such. I haven't been following comprehensively though. Prob on Stuff or RNZ.
This just up on Stuff.
So they can't get the paddy wagons in?
You'd have to ask them. But this statement is interesting:
"New Zealand’s other major RAT supplier, Roche, has also said it told customers the Government had requested its orders be prioritised, although a formal prioritisation request was never made."
I'm not sure about Roche, but one thing we do know is this; this government is anything but open and transparent.
Just picked this up off the newsfeeds – a volunteer firefighter at Winton has tested positive for Covid, and the whole fire dept is shut down and in self-isolation.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/covid-19-omicron-surge-southland-firefighter-tests-positive-putting-fire-trucks-out-of-service/4UVOZWSOP7YCGLENGZZJ55M5GY/?c_id=1&objectid=12504318&ref=rss
How sustainable is this kind of isolation for emergency workers going to be? ATM the nearest fire response would be Invercargill – about 30mins away (and a good deal longer if the call was out of Winton to the north).
There's the real potential for lives to be lost.
This is the kind of situation where I believe RATs need to be deployed, rather than quarantining people who turn out not to have Covid.
Fuck, Otago and Southland cases are spreading out and fast.
Looks like there are a lot of stations closer than Invercargill. Put Winton into this search and zoom out. https://www.fireandemergency.nz/find-a-station/
Re RATs, it's the balance point between encouraging spread via false negatives, and loss of essential service staff.
Agree. But think that fire services are pretty essential (it's not just fires, they're often the first responders to any emergency in rural areas).
The essential services should be able to get swabs and perhaps self-isolate together in the emergency depot. RATs are quicker but not as effective. Is that how the system works?
https://www.health.govt.nz/our-work/diseases-and-conditions/covid-19-novel-coronavirus/covid-19-health-advice-public/assessment-and-testing-covid-19
Is cyclone Dovi an act of God? Couldn't hit the anti-vaxxers more square if it tried.
1:00am tomorrow morning…
The Parliament anti…..vaxxer (well they are a mixed nut selection ) protestors are dumbfounded/dumbasses, double bunked with some TRULY dangerous people.
"Only the crumbliest, flakiest"…… no chocolate at all !
Is chocolate the secret weapon? Perhaps that would be a way for needle-shy people to take vaccinations? Just a spoonful of sugar makes the medicine god down dah dah.
Trevor Mallard's escalation is profoundly stupid, of course. Best to completely ignore the muppets, even if they're there for weeks.
(I do actually suspect a majority of New Zealand would secretly like to channel their inner Muldoon here, but the key is not to turn the muppets into martyrs).
Fine line here though… leaving them here for ages holding up transport links, teasing mask wearing students and being unpleasant and arguing the toss about mask wearing at the local supermarket are likely to arouse the inner Muldoon as you say rather than support.
His escalation may be silly but then many would think the actions by the protestors have set the tone. Getting through this to negotiate when the leaders may have different agendas may be difficult.
Woah. Deludge has hit
Have fun in your tents protesters. Lol
Someone needs to send Mallard home and tell him to stfu. According to Stuff hes just said that the protest is run by neo nazis… he's making it infinitely worse…
TBF it is quite funny watching him dig himself his own political career grave given how much people on here stuck up for him with his biased performances as Speaker and Ardern human shield at question times. Lol
I quite like him because of the baby in the house thing, but what he's doing this weekend is incredibly stupid.
I guess the water-restrictions for Wellington will be lifted…
I reckon I can balance that out…
How bout the time he as Race Relations minister accused Tariana Turia of encouraging Maori youth to get pregnant as a part of master plan to take over New Zealand.
Here's the link with quotes from Trevor.https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/turia-says-two-child-families-not-maori-way/R7PJOQBYUEFKOXHT7UALX466JI/
good lord, how did he get to be RR Minister?
Basically hes a hot headed bully when things dont go his way. Absolutely the wrong person to be pulling the strings in a situation like this. He's a disgrace.
I'm kind of stunned he's allowed to, but in this role does Labour or the caucus not have any say on what he does?
I don't think they do actually. Part of the speakers role is security of all the buildings and grounds, and he was picked by Labour.
Can't help thinking it will come back and bite Ardern in the arse though, given it is pretty much exactly one year since Labour over-turned the Nats forced vote on non-confidence of his performance.
Interesting to watch though.
If you like watching train wrecks.
Edit:Sorry. Should have been clearer. Think it would take a vote of no confidence.
And ATM the Nats won’t do it as they are probably laughing their arses off. Ardern is in a seriously difficult position of turning the last one on him down, while also if she did it, it would mean basically saying she made a massive mistake publicly, which the Nats would pounce on.
She is kind of in a lose lose position from what I can see.
I think whoever the people were who decided to vote no to the no confidence vote of Mallard last year might be looking for new jobs on Monday
I find it a bit weird actually given how much parties on all sides pay for PR to giude them on what is a "good look" and a "bad" media wise.
Must have just gone rogue I reckon.
That's the conclusion I came to, he's basically writing a how not to deal with protests guide in real time.
He may not be wrong but whether he was wise to have mentioned it ??????
All sorts of protests are used by 'bad actors' to further their own aims that may not be the same as the original protestors.
Well what do you call Counterspin? It is pretty hardline.
From David Farrier writes about Counterspin Media.
https://www.webworm.co/p/fakenews2
Counterspin has been providing the commentary to these on the ground for a couple of days now. The more moderate (ha ha relatively) original organisers faded out very soon after they arrived in Wellington. These happenings have been well publicised in the last couple of days.
Phillip Arps, Kelvyn Alp and Brett Power are/will be/have been involved.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127741171/inside-the-disorienting-contradictory-swirl-of-the-convoy-as-seen-through-its-media-mouthpiece
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/opinion/127744103/this-ragtag-of-disaffection-highlights-the-shattering-of-a-once-united-population
https://www.newsroom.co.nz/hijacked-the-inside-story-of-how-nzs-convoy-lost-its-rudder
Info on the scary face of this protest and his unsuccessful case is here
https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/127744100/high-court-dismisses-vaccine-protesters-allegations-against-health-minister
Action Zelandia took photographs showing the back of Parliament after one of its members who was also an employee of LT McGuiness climbed a work crane. Now no longer employed. Security had to be rejigged for MPs after this was found.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/security-changed-at-parliaments-bowen-house-after-action-zealandia-posts-video/OP2D4U3ETENXLUN22UNOIII7CY/
PS I don’t think the Parliament sprinkler /garden stuff is covered by Wellington City’s water restrictions. I complained about four large sprinklers going at a field at a college last summer when we were heading to be chronically short of water and was told that water restrictions don’t apply to most govt entities. Most try to abide but may not be subject to specific times and days which is also the case with WCC itself.
WCC is not always the quickest one to abide by the restrictions it sets for others. Fair enough for specialist things like the botanical gardens, Zoo.
Yes there are undesirable elements involved but also many who are ordinary Kiwis. What's happening at the moment is just entrenching positions. If Mallard continues as he is I'm gonna drive down and join in…
The myth of the ordinary Kiwi. They don't exist. NZers may have certain characteristics that set apart us as a nation from others but mythmaking about 'ordinary kiwis' does not help.
The people are not like you, me or the people next door….they have deliberately chosen an anti health way forward. They have put 'me' before 'us'.
Sure mandates will end just as border restrictions will end. We have a timeline for the borders. Perhaps we need to say the mandates will be lifted in October unless we can lift them earlier.
But really until we see the measure of Omicron we are flying blind. But the protestors have been tone deaf to think that at the time when NZ is facing a huge huge challenge from Omicron (that has not reached us yet) that this was the time to give away all health measures…..the height of stupidity.
Sure we may have to negotiate to get them to go but please don't fool ourselves by thinking they are the mythical ordinary Kiwis. This is what they will be hoping – that we will be fooled by our yearning to go forward together. But we can't and it will be a stultifying NZ we live in if we do.
I hope negotiations are done in a businesslike health focussed way. They are most unordinary Kiwis from a health point of view.
So I am saying that while the protest may have the bad actors I have mentioned plus others such as Destiny, Sue Grey and Liz Gunn the remainder are not the mythic 'ordinary Kiwis'.
Mallard may be doing this and he is probably unwise (to us) in the scheme of things, but possibly he, like many of the other parliamentarians, believes that they are actually not the mythical ordinary kiwis and negotiations should not proceed as if they are.
"The people are not like you, me or the people next door….they have deliberately chosen an anti health way forward. They have put 'me' before 'us'."
Exactly Shanreagh.
Someone yesterday rolled out the "They are us" line.
I thought, no they're not.
Be kind to old men and all oldies should do a memory test every six months, I wonder if he can bring on hypertension just thinking about protesters and empty cans lying on the lawn. He is probably just waiting for a space in some flash retirement home with pools, bells and whistles. Nice for those who like that sort of thing. Or maybe he is a horse lover and has graduated up to unicorns. Do they have those yet at these flash super retirement villages where the young might stick their nose up to a gate or window pane if they can.
Far out. This will clear a few 20 dollar Warehouse tents! Lol
Sprinklers how very New Zealand lol.
Water cannons would be more effective.
Why?
(Trying to work out if you condone the sprinklers)
From the Guardian 11/2/22
The Global 'Freedom' Movement is a carnival of crank and conspiracy – and very dangerous and counts NZ in the countries where
"“Freedom” protests similar in form and simultaneously nebulous in broadly anti-vax/anti-mandate political goals have materialised in Britain, France and New Zealand."
The inability to work out what these similar groups are really on about is deliberate and world wide. When aims are so opaque we must wonder. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/12/the-global-freedom-movement-is-a-carnival-of-crank-and-conspiracy-and-very-dangerous