This is fascinating, and such a good explanation of the culture wars. But it needs to be understood in context, so I will attempt a precis (sorry, it ended up being long).
The hosts of Triggernometry are two right wing intellectual men. The reason lefties like me watch their show is because they are one of the few places where the interviews are about eliciting belief and meaning rather than simply using polemic or clickbait rhetoric for whatever politics/position.
They interview people with a wide range of beliefs and politics, from across the political spectrums.
The young man they are interviewing is of a different age demographic and milieu. He's most recently been working for an online LW media outlet, but has worked with both the left and right (including far right). I don't quite get him, and in the past have thought he was a grifter and a bit of a dick. But here he is showing more mature analsysis.
He came to fame recently because he interviewed right wing media personality and trans identified male (trans woman) India Willoughby. Willoughby has a gender recognition certificate and often insists they are literally a woman. They're on twitter and there is a lot of fighting between IW and gender critical people, including JK Rowling.
In the interview with the young man, Willoughby claimed that they had made a complaint to the police about JKR misgendering them on tweets and this was a hate crime. This was a few weeks before the Scottish Hate Crime law came into being on April 1 (JKR lives in Scotland). The police declined to investigate.
But the statement they had done this was a big scoop for the young man, and he threw it out onto twitter into everyone's faces in a stupid way and got an understandably negative response (those tweets now deleted by his media org afaik).
JKR responded on twitter a number of times because lines were being crossed and the young dude got a lot more than he bargained for. He ended up tweeting to JKR that she was a putrid c*nt. He appears to have been having a melt down rather than simply being a fuckwit.
Not too long after that he unreservedly apologised and took responsibility, deleting the tweets. JKR accepted his apology gracefully and asked everyone to back off. Young dude disappears for awhile.
In this video, he is talking about all of that, comes across as quite naive, the Triggernometry guys are going kind of light on him but pull him up on a few things.
At the time stamp he says how since then lefties he knows have been telling him that JKR is a cunt and he shouldn't have deleted his tweets. Then all three of them are sitting there talking about the dynamic of why the left now think it's ok to call a woman a cunt, that it is extremely misogynistic. Compare this with the resounding silence from the left at all the misogynistic shit being thrown at gender critical women for the past decade.
He also points out very well that both sides no longer consider the people on the other side human, and that this is going to go very badly.
What women now understand very very well is that RW men will stand up for them (to an extent) and LW men won't.
This in a nutshell is why the left is losing the culture wars. Most of the liberal left is still running round thinking that our politics are more important than people. He tangata, he tangata is lipservice and only applicable to people we like and agree with.
Meanwhile, the structure of the traditional left/right spectrum is breaking down. I see so many women on social media (more than I can count) talking about now being politically homeless (UK, US and NZ). They have picked a side that is anti-left. And the liberal left's response is don't let the door hit you on the way out bigots, while at the same time not understanding that we are now outnumbered and outgunned.
People right across the political spectrum get sucked into media narratives. In fact given the advent of the internet and particularly social media taking over news we probably have a smaller range of narratives as individual's than the 90's.
Fundamentally the left and right are about as susceptible to moral panics as each other.
The only winning strategy with culture wars is not to play.
It's a nice idea, but women simply aren't going to walk away from the sex/gender wars, so the issue becomes how to convert the culture war side of that into useful debate and political rapprochement.
The next bit in that video is talking the social media manipulation and also MSM. The young dude working at Byline has spend a number of years going out and doing actual reporting without an agenda on issues like why a steel works is closing down. And still getting millions of views.
MSM were cutting that kind of reporting and often the MSM didn't know why the steel works was closing. But he just went and talked to workers and people who lived there who explained it and that no-one else was talking to.
It was inspiring. I need to go look up some of his past work. It's very pertinent given the cuts to NZ journalism and news.
Well, now that the Labour Party is employing Shaneel Lal, I am seriously considering the cancellation of the automatic payment to the Party I have done for over 40 years.
Seriously, Labour have employed Shaneel Lal? Wow that’s crazy I certainly get the feeling he would be a highly unsuitable candidate for any position of power.
The Labour Government had already employed him during the last six years as an advisor to the Ministry of Education.
I'm assuming the current cropping of government employers may have ended that contract, making his employment with Labour a shift rather than a new decision.
So anyone working in a public service job is working for the *** (party) government and an employee in an MP's office is working for the party of the MP?
More accurately: The recent clearout of consultants MAY have meant that he was available for work. His advocacy and consultancy work, MAY have meant – like others in the same situation – that he reached out to his existing network for employment. Which MAY have included members of the Labour Party.
That party is the ultimate self interest cartel. Middle class just wants a tax cut (no CGT, no estate taxes), a lower MW (lower employment cost), less spent on poor people (welfare/state housing etc).
Is there some reason you are missing the point here SPC? It has nothing to do with his sexuality but everything to with his character/personality which is wanting.
Shaneel Lal was in large part responsible for the massing of people in Albert park in March 2023 that prevented women from speaking. Notably (some) the political left seem captured by the phrase 'transwomen are women' (tip they remain male in every single cell in their male bodies)
The image of PM Hipkins fluffing about trying to answer the question from Sean Plunket on 'what is a woman?' is hard to remove from one's mind. The image of foul mouthed tweets from Lal also.
Shaneel Lal & cohorts are in large part reponsible for the rise in the questioning of routine biology.
So I am not sure what he brings unless there is some sort of mana in bringing some sort of anti woman, anti science person to Labour. It certainly keeps up the 'good work' enabling many to wonder what is going on with the left in NZ and to laugh at us.
Anyway we are not concerned about Nat party. Their have been many 'own goals' from the Nats with their MPs.
Somehow many thought that the Labour Party would not be doing such a thing. That Labour had an eye on the optics, that Labour had learned something from the inept handling of the LWS protests at Albert Park.
It is the Labour Party that many are stratching their heads about in the employement of Lal. It shows to many how far away the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them.
To suggest that "the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them." is odd, imo. The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided, "Nah, we don't need them/their votes" Pretence? Hardly. They weren't pretending in the first place, so how could they have strayed? Have you noticed, I presume you have, that there are women in the Labour Party? Do you assume they are voiceless? Doesn't seem that way to me.
So how come the employment of Lal seems to have gone unremarked on?
How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM
How come Labout as a whole has not condemned the violence meted out towards women at Albert Park?
All I am saying is that Lal seems on the face of it to bring little to the party and what he does bring, should be weighed against his generally anti social views in other walks of life. With 100s of competent policy analysts etc being shed from the PS since the election there should have been a better pool to choose from.
"How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM"
You're absolving Hipkins for his poor response, and blaming his minders?
Fair enough. Hadn't heard anyone stand up for Hipkins as you have here, Shanreagh – good for you!
It might be odd to you Robert, but those of us that have been following the gender/sex wars for a long time and been involved in figuring out and addressing the concerns of women, we understand perfectly.
NZ Labour have a long history now of sex denialism, prioritising the perceived rights of trans identified men over women, and of their MPs failing in their duty to represent their representing women's interests as a whole.
Within the Labour Party membership, there are many women who don't support GII over women's rights, and it's been very hard for them to speak because of No Debate.
Young NZer of the Year 2023 employed by Labour Party – now that would be a headline to stir the blood. Has anyone else heard the same? Time to purge Labour of its trans taint.
No Debate means that progressive gender critical voices have largely been silence. That leaves a vacuum for the reactionaries and the right to drive the narrative. Unfortunately that also means that the evidence is poorly presented.
"The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided" ah, we don't need them/their votes"
Robert could it be you have been too busy with other things, or poss not interested what the Labour Party thought about the women's vote…
Some History :
The Women's Rights Party was the result of one active member splitting away from the Labour Party ….their party vote was 2,513 at the last election.
Also many (men and women) voted for NZF in the last election, thinking they would hold to their promise to address the 'genderism' language that had infiltrated NZ Govenment Departments.
"Genderism"= the denial of sexed bodies, among other things
Remember NZ claims to be secular society.
First you suggest that a lesbian considering stopping her long AP to the Labour Party over the hiring of Lal is because she is homophobic.
Secondly, after it's been explained, you now say it's about objection to the 'cause', even after Shanreagh specifically said it was about Lal and his character.
If you still don't understand the point here I suggest you ask for clarification rather than making shit up.
Visubversa: thinking about cancelling my AP because Labour employed Lal
SPC: "I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?"
At the least, you are blatantly misrepresenting visub's point. At worse you are suggesting that her reasons were because the Lab MP had employed someone who is queer.
If you didn't mean the latter, now is your chance to clarify.
I was comparing someone on the left considering leaving a left wing party because an MP hired a transgender activist to someone on the right leaving a right wing party because an MP hired someone who was a homosexual/lesbian rights activist.
That this requires an explanation is how absurdly difficult it is to debate this issue on the site.
ok, that’s kind of what I was thinking. This is how I interpreted that:
RW person quits National over them hiring a gay rights activist = homophobia
therefore if a LW person quits Labour over them hiring a trans rights activists, this equates to transphobia.
The problem here is this:
it’s not quitting over a TRA (although that might be an issue too). It’s quitting over this particular TRA because of who he is and what he has already done
Lal’s brand of TR activism is deeply misogynistic. Gay rights historically hasn’t been about removing other people’s rights, nor transgressing other people’s boundaries.
I will also point out that rather than saying gay rights activist, you in fact said gay person,
“I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?”
Which is where the confusion probably started.
So complain all you like about having to explain things, but I will just reinforce the fact that too many people currently think they can do short comments and then complain when people get the wrong end of the stick.
His (Shanel lal) character issue can be put down to the type of attitude that screams “Im right, you’re wrong” and “how dare you contradict me”. If he was a regular straight white dude had a regular professional job as say a manager with staff, working in finance then he would be highly problematic. But he is politically to the left and has very a fixed ideology that he won’t accept being questioned, let alone challenged. Because “we” mustn’t upset the guy, “we”go down the wrong path because “we” are scared of being denounced as being impure.
Surely this should be seen as a warning for us all
Only the almighty is perfect and beyond reproach. If we as an individual reach the stage when we are unquestionably right, our time in this world has com to an end. Mortal men who challenge the gods inevitably end up as despots.
Lal was very instrumental in the violence that happened at LWS Auckland. In the week leading up he was running terf = nazi lines, on national television, and egging on the people that eventually became a mob.
In that interview he also made out that KJK was a reactionary nutjob by saying that she thinks people are being murdered and put into a blender. In fact in one of her videos she referred to a known case in the UK where that was done to a 14 year old girl who was probably kidnapped by grooming gangs (which KJK also talked about and is also a known thing).
So here is Lal completely misrepresenting a political opponent and a political situation. It's just stupid having someone like that working politics.
It’s interesting that he used “nazi” to describe a group of woman who he disagrees with. He is so unaware of his own ideological character, that he doesn’t realise the similarities between himself and the character of those Germans caught up with the undying belief of the nazi ideology in the 1930’s.
Well speaking very generally you can get a good idea of the cause by the people those espousing the cause choose as employees. This is not a Public Service employment but a time limited, hopefully, political employment.
It's customary/required here on TS. Not sure how your comment slipped through the net.
The only time people are pre-emptively required to provide a link up front is when they quote.
Sometimes we also ask people to provide links as part of backing up arguments. As per the Policy,
What we’re not prepared to accept are pointless personal attacks, or tone or language that has the effect of excluding others. We are intolerant of people starting or continuing flamewars where there is little discussion or debate. This includes making assertions that you are unable to substantiate with some proof (and that doesn’t mean endless links to unsubstantial authorities) or even argue when requested to do so. Such comments may be deleted without warning or one of the alternatives below may be employed. The action taken is completely up to the moderator who takes it.
In this case, that Lal has been employed by a Labour MP has been discussed enough that you will find this from a simply google or TS search.
The mods take a very dim view of people misrepresenting TS policy and moderation.
If you want to know about something, ask. Please stop hassling people about this.
You are clearly not understanding how this works despite repeated explanations. I'm sick of explaining it over and over. If I see you making asides about the moderation that undermines moderation, I will moderate.
Lal has sat on Amnesty International's Youth Task Force. Lal has served as a Global Youth Leader for Open Government Partnership. In 2019, Lal was selected by Jenny Salesa to represent Manukau East in the New Zealand Youth Parliament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaneel_Lal#Other_work
I'd like to know whether Lal is, or has been, employed (in the usual sense of the word) by the Labour Party or by a Labour party MP. How hard can it be to provide evidence – surely it would have been leaked by now?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the rush to accept Lal's employment by Labour as a (convenient?) truth is to no-one's credit, imho.
Thanks weka for that link to a video of Ovens' interview with Plunkett.
"Jill Ovens on Shaneel Lal’s position in the Labour Party"
[@ 0:22] And at the end of the interview I [Plunkett] quizzed him [Hipkins] about the employment by the Labour party of a man called Shaneel Lal…
[@1:52] He [Hipkins] also defended the employment of Shaneel Lal as an executive assistant and policy researcher in the Labour party – we understand in the office of the MP Jenny Salesa, for whom he was a youth MP some years ago.
[@ 3.00] Jill, were you surprised yesterday, on the anniversary of Albert Park, to hear that Shaneel Lal was – had been employed by the Labour party.
[@ 6:31] Would you go back [to the Labour party] if Shaneel Lal was still working for the Labour party at Parliament?
The title of that YouTube video seems to leave no room for doubt that Lal holds a "position" in the Labour party (perhaps, "we understand", as a policy researcher in Salesa's office) – Ovens' says [@ 3:48] "it wouldn't be surprising if she [Lal] worked through that [Salesa's] office".
Which is all well and good, but please forgive me for wanting to hear what Hipkins said, rather than what Plunkett said Hipkins said, and Ovens' reaction to what Plunkett said Hipkins said.
Also, please accept that I'm not saying Hipkins didn't confirm Lal is employed as an executive assistant and policy researcher in the Labour party – it's just that I haven't personally seen/heard Hipkins confirm this, or read a transcript of what Hipkins said, so I don't know.
Lastly, weka, if you can confirm that Hipkins said what Plunkett said he said on Plunkett's platform, then that would be good enough for me.
you might find the whole piece interesting. Anderson is hard core anti left, but no debate means he is one of the very few producing video content eg LWS Auckland.
you've no idea how fucking enraging it is that the liberal left have forced the situation to the point were left wing gender critical feminists like myself have to rely on him for evidence.
One more reason why I really loath the liberal left weka. They are just pathetic, no better than the liberal right. Two sides of a very destructive coin.
thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol.
I find that many Right views & opinions sound very similar to generative AI: persuasive, compelling, and convincing (bordering on manipulative if/when wielded in certain situations targeting certain receptive audiences). However, at the same time they tend to circle around in variations of the same (neoliberal/economic) themes underpinning and congruent with their ideological framework, lack creativity and originality, and fall into traps of self-referential and self-fulfilling claims & conclusions similar to the intrinsic bias and hallucinating of gen-AI. They also tend to show considerable weakness in debating of moral and ethical dilemmas with their one-size-fits-all approach to personal and corporate freedoms that is dichotomous and uncompromising by default.
They also tend to show considerable weakness in debating of moral and ethical dilemmas with their one-size-fits-all approach to personal and corporate freedoms that is dichotomous and uncompromising by default.
This was not always the approach of the right. Every now and again you catch a glimpse of the 'old right'. Chris Finlayson being one thinker from the Right.
Since the neo-lib times the Right seems to view everything through an economic lens. This to me is why they now lack any declared aspirations for the betterment of NZ & NZers that does not hark back to some sort of $$$ approach. It has been bred out of them. I am not sure the current lot is capable of lifting their eyes higher than some sort of economic shop till.
This is not what I am meaning at all. How many thinkers are 'difficult' from the point of view of others?
I'd venture to say that every single person who has made a foray into public life with beliefs that are not the bog standard stuff will have upset someone along the way. That someone has then gone on to to say, 'but he is so rude', 'he is so dismissive'.
This is a great quote from GB Shaw from 'Man & Superman'. It uses the meaning of 'reasonable' of compliant, of seeing no need to question..etc
George Bernard Shaw said “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
In my world we'd protect thinkers even with their foibles, by looking at the content & generally not their personal characteristics.
Lal a thinker? You must be joking. His tweets would disabuse anyone of that notion, his inability to recognise the views/rights of others, his unabashed violence of thought/speech.
The claim to a be thinker falls by an examination of the content that I have seen.
2. On Twitter, Lal posted this comment “Dear Threaders, Can we agree that we won’t tolerate TERFs on Threads. They've made the lives of trans people living hell on almost all platforms. Let’s not allow their hatred to poison this app too. Requested with love.” Lal doesn't show much love for women who happen to be gender critical. Why are people threatening to boycott Spark NZ? | Stuff
The same can be said about some on the left. Inflexible political ideology is similar to a one eyed Canterbury supporter. It’s the psychology of the individual, it’s kinda okay with your favourite sports team, but it’s not okay with governing the country.
Maybe we (the public or society in general) need more open discussion about how we debate issues, it seems to me that the bullies are in control and have a greater say than those of us who wish to fully understand ideas. Mind you I come from an engineering background, before my current career. I could design a product or a system that worked perfectly on paper, but we built the prototypes, refined the designs, to ensure the the product could actually be manufactured, and would actually do what it was designed to do. One thing that I would come across, were the guys who believed that they were brilliant, but were completely unaware of their lack of technical competence. Rather than admitting that their knowledge was lacking in certain areas, they would deliberately undermine and attack their more competent colleagues. I think this was the first time that I’d heard about narcissistic personality disorders. So I’m wondering if people who hold ideologically rigid beliefs have risen to their level of incompetence and are unwilling to accept that they are wrong, or have something to learn, in order to protect their fragile self belief of themselves. One thing these guys had in common was their victimhood, they always blamed others for their failings, they were also masters at manipulating others to come to their side, even when we had absolute proof that the design could not possibly work. Sorry a bit off topic…
Yeah, the second long paragraph was not a strong analogy, IMO, and going off-topic a wee bit.
I don’t consider Left and Right ideologies as equivalent on a simple linear axis (e.g. one of the two axes of political compasses) or, simplistically, the other side of the coin (which is an example of dichotomous thinking). In addition, there are distinct differences, IMO, in how adherents and advocates (and activists) of various ideologies interpret and apply their respective sets of values, beliefs, and ideas.
I’d say that some ideologies are intrinsically more open, more inclusive, more flexible, and more compromising, for example, than others.
I'm starting to think there is this emerging class of righties whose politics are primarily involved in establishing truth and honesty. They're quite different from the right wing who favour misrepresentation or say Dirty Politics. In addition to Kisin and Foster from Triggernometry, I would say Peter Boghossian is the same (and would be interested to hear what you think of his Street Epistemology work if you look at it).
I don't find them running the kinds of AI-esque arguments that you are meaning, and my admiration is for their technique and not their politics. Outside of TS, I don't see a lot of space for holding to truth and honesty in LW spaces, although that is no doubt also a reflection of the online spaces I am in. But for the most part, the left seem more occupied with ideology than truth.
This is the reason for the overlap between people like Triggernometry and the left/centre left GC people. Both sides know not just that humans can change sex is a lie, but that the lie is a really big, important one in terms of denying material reality.
I'm starting to think there is this emerging class of righties whose politics are primarily involved in establishing truth and honesty.
Not sure Kisin and Foster are establishing truth and honesty by platforming some of the worst people on the planet – anti-Islam activist Carl Benjamin, who happens to hate women and Jews and loves Tommy Robinson, actual fascist Sebastian Gorka, a self-proclaimed member of Hungarian Nazi group the Order of Vitéz and supporter of the banned fascist cosplay paramilitary group Magyar Gárda, professional Islamophobe and promoter of the great replacement racist conspiracy theory Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, Nigel Farage, Melanie Phillips, Andy Ngo, Chris Rufo, etc.
establishing might not be the best word, I will think on that.
Just starting to listen to one of the CB interviews now. Here's Risin at the start,
One of the things that I always liked about our conversations is that when you first came on the show we probably didn't agree on much. We've probably moved somewhat since, towards some of the views that you had, or maybe we unearthed some of the views we already had over time. But one of the things I always appreciated about you is your willingness to engage with people in conversation who have different opinions.
So CB is far right. I don't think that bothers RW men as much as it bothers us on the left. So that interview doesn't mean that the techniques they use aren't about honesty and truth.
If the left's response is to go 'nazi sympathiser', that will convince people on the left, many on the centre left, and even some centrists and centre right. It's not going to make use the majority.
Which is to say, condemn the far right, for very good reasons I assume we both know. But if you also take out the centre right in that critique, how will the left ever win? That's not a rhetorical question, I really want to know what the strategy is. Almost no-one ever says.
in the absence of a straight answer, I'll take that as you having watched none of them. Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers.
The irony is that your response is a classic example of the particular approach of the liberal left to this issue. Why bother making an actual argument when you can just make ideological and unevidenced assertions? The reason that Kisin and Foster are so good at what they do is that they eschew that form of debate and instead favour seeking truth by communicating, ideas exchange, and digging into issues. It's also why they can interview such a wide range of people and still be interesting despite their RW politics. Making an assertion about something is really the lowest form of debate by comparison.
But thanks for providing such a good example of the problem.
Also, as I pointed out in my original comment, those three RW men were easily able to pin point, name and explain the misogyny, whereas the liberal left are no longer able to do that and either actively or passively support the misogyny instead.
Weka: long comment about a Triggernometry episode and their ability as RW men to recognise gross misogyny while the left is ignoring or sanctioning same misogyny.
Adam (in response to that long comment):
One more reason why I really loath the liberal left weka. They are just pathetic, no better than the liberal right. Two sides of a very destructive coin.
Weka (in response to Adam and in reference to the Triggernometry comment):
thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol.
Robert (in response to weka's response to Adam):
That may seem so to you, weka, but they don't and they never have. If you find yourself nodding, check to see if you are still awake.
Weka: how many episodes of Triggernometry have you watched Robert?
Robert: doesn't answer and diverts
Weka: that's no episodes then. And,
Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers.
"thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol."
You're pinging me for refusing to answer a question from you about something I'd not even come near to mentioning, alluding to, knowing about!
thank you Weka, indeed, as you say Triggernometry and Street Epistemology work with Peter Boghossian are interesting; to see random people either stick to their initial point of view or slowly changing as they get more information… and the questions become more challenging as they go.
I love PB's work. That whole thing about getting people to think about their beliefs in a situation that is non-confrontational, he is really good at it.
(he also made a tit of himself this week by picking a fight with feminists online and then doubling down. Like he took a lid off and all his own beliefs came out. Interesting and weird in a man who is so good at remaining neutral in other situations).
Wokeness & Aliens w/ Michael Shellenberger & Michael Shermer | Spectrum Street Epistemology
Bestselling authors and esteemed public intellectuals Michael Shermer and Michael Shellenberger discussed a number of topics ranging from religion to alien life.
Genspect Founder Stella O'Malley & The Gay of the Year, Menno Kuijper | Spectrum Street Epistemology
Stella, a psychotherapist and author, and Menno, a video creator who is gay, both share a similar gender-critical viewpoint. Though, they disagree on some points, notably on whether the term "trans people" should even be used. This leads to a discussion on the importance of language, especially regarding trans issues. Finally, they discuss autogynephilia and consent.
the liberal left is a term I use to name the subset of the left who have abandoned class analysis in favour of identity politics. I prefer it because the term identity politics is weaponised by the left. It also references that the elevating of liberty over community.
Adam probably has a somewhat difference usage, with more emphasis on historical leftist critique of political liberalism and class.
Either way, if you take it to mean left wing people who are socially liberal, you are wrong.
It is the terminology used by the right to attack those liberal on social policy, if they are also left wing (social democratic and or socialist), adopted by others – whom someone called the "haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left, because their cause is more important.
that's confused. The haters and wreckers phrase was Helen Clark's in response to Māori protest over the Foreshore and Seabed Act.
If those of us on the left cannot name dynamics within the left without being called haters and wreckers, who exactly is doing the dividing here?
Within feminism we name liberal feminism to distinguish it from other kinds of feminism. This matters because the mainstream tends to think liberal feminism = feminism.
Likewise, the conflating identitarian politics with leftism in general. Ime the right don't use the term liberal left when criticising identity politics, they just call it the left. Which is in accurate because identity politics doesn't usually concern itself with the labour movement or class analysis.
At the end of the day it's because the liberal left can't handle it being pointed out they are frauds. They have wreaked the socialist program. They have embraced identitarian politics and the destruction that has wrought. They have supported hard right economics for the last 40 odd years – with all the harm that has caused.
And yet any one who calls them on their bullshit is ""haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left"
Time to get the house in order, and sweep out the bullshitters, fakes and lairs.
But for many that is just too hard. To hard to face up to the fact the people they embraced as an ally – were in fact, not.
SPC you may not like me and that is fine – but I'm at least honest enough with myself to know your not the enemy. But you have bedded down with people who are. And like our Great Grand parents we need to remove ourselves from those who offer up all the right words, and empathetic language, when their actions do not match their words.
One can make the case that the 4th Labour government undertook a neo-liberal market reform. MP's were misled into thinking that not managing an economy for the nation state peoples well-being was bringing a backwater colony into the wider global market world. That this and the anti-nuclear policy and Treaty moves (that National continued with) made for a progressive modernisation of our society.
They should have focused on the gains from the 1983 CER, maintained ownership of assets and state capability and like Oz, operated within the constraint of keeping unemployment low.
Yet the 5th Labour government protected state housing – restored income related rents, provided tertiary debt relief for local workers, supported low income families, increased the MW and invested in retirement saving for those over 65. These all continue.
Yeah they and the 6th one have together left undone, a "FPA", expanding sickness into ACC, a more significant increase in state (income related) housing, and failed to protect people with a rent freeze, or realised the appropriate tax system to reduce inequality etc.
Sure Labour incrementalism, not being NACT – incumbency first is stifling. Labour party members can own that fight.
I've never voted Labour (voting pre MMP was absurd), I've always preferred Greens.
Greens and this TPM will ensure a future Labour led government has some backbone.
If every group, that thinks their one issue is more important than the common cause, did what the 2005 era Maori MP's did – what would be left of Labour?
The National Party does not do that, they seek to be the largest party – the Labour was last that that in 2005.
TPM is back into the centre-left fold from its centrist dalliance with National (2005-2017), but there have long been calls for the “environmentalists” in the Green Party to do as they did.
the liberal left is a term I use to name the subset of the left who have abandoned class analysis in favour of identity politics. I prefer it because the term identity politics is weaponised by the left. It also references that the elevating of liberty over community.
I doubt that the either the liberal left, or socially liberal right have abandoned class analysis – it still determines how they vote.
The liberal left vote Labour (and Greens) because of their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government.
Adam probably has a somewhat difference usage, with more emphasis on historical leftist critique of political liberalism and class.
There is a middle class division between classic liberals – those who prefer social democracy (and side with working class Labour) and those who prefer conformity with the capitalist market order (National and worse).
There are others who want a well regulated economy and well managed governance. Those who either support, or do the work of technocrat moderation of whatever the the left and right parties in governments do.
Those who reject either groups from the "working class team" are in reality advocating for a small more pure party to wait for system failure before being electable. Then comes the change …
I doubt that the either the liberal left, or socially liberal right have abandoned class analysis – it still determines how they vote.
How so? Plenty of people vote for as you say their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government. That doesn't inherently involve class analysis. Plenty of people still voting for parties that will protect the capital gains in property they own for instance. Or who want a nicer version of neoliberal capitalism.
If every group, that thinks their one issue is more important than the common cause, did what the 2005 era Maori MP’s did – what would be left of Labour?
I don’t really see how that follows on from what I said. Also, I’m fine if Labour splinters into several parties at this point. We’re in an electoral stalemate that will continue to block climate action. We’re approaching the point where anything will be better than that.
But I don’t think what I am saying is equivalent to every group making their own issue more important than the common cause. In fact, the only people doing that are the genderists who use No Debate, that is literally what they are doing. The rest of us are all just bringing out issue to the table to be worked through.
(unless you were referring to adam, who does take a more radical approach).
unless you were referring to adam, who does take a more radical approach
Thanks weka, that is correct.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who is sick and tired of having to listen to people say they believe in a socialist vision, and yet they keep supporting far right economics. Tear apart social movements and moan nothing can be done, apart from very small incremental change. Then support class war, by doing sweet bugger all to fight against austerity.
They they will cancel anyone who disagree with their take on the dumb as fuck cultural wars, or the purity of their identify politics.
Yes I put class first, simply because the poor in this country have been getting fucked by the liberal left and the liberal right in this country for the last 40 years.
Why, because I'm not a liberal, never have been, and never liked them.
Social democrats on the other hand are good people.
As are free communists and anarchists.
You know the left – before liberals pranced around pretending they gave two shits about the poor, the down trodden and hard working people. Or more over, pretended they were left wing. When they are nothing more the the usual worshipers of cupidity. And shit stirrers who play silly little mind games – and other Bullshit like cultural wars.
Maybe you might want to ask yourself why your here Robert Guyton, and if your one of the liberals or someone who is actually on the left rather than a tool for the Tory wankers?
It's clear you're neither liberal, nor Left, adam, hence my question and in answer to your suggestion that I ask myself why I'm here, though it was somewhat garbled, I have and I liked my answer!
what makes you think Adam is not left? He's been writing on TS for a very long time from a left anarchist and class analysis perspective in a NZ and international context (at least in my view that's where he is). How is that not left?
He is also socially liberal (liberal with a small l, as opposed to being a liberal in the sense of liberalism), eg around issues like gay rights.
Do you understand the differences between Liberalism and leftism? It's a bit confused at times in NZ because historically the middle classes in particular have called themselves liberal, when they mean small l socially liberal, not Liberalists.
Adam is clearly socially liberal in the sense of supporting gay rights kind of NZ liberal values. What I call small l liberal. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not liberal.
He rejects Liberalism. So do many leftists. Rejection of Liberalism doesn't mean someone is not left. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not left.
Love how you throw dirt, like other liberals here – Gosman and Puckish rouge comes to mind – you never really say what you mean.
A liberal is someone who supports liberalism as representing their political world view. Like many on the left I reject liberalism as a economic/political system and the people who support it.
Wow so supporting, economic freedom, freedom of association, workers rights, the rights of women, gays, indigenous rights, disabled self determination and opposing authoritarianism in all it's forms – is what – right wing now?
The sages tell us the love of money is the root of all evil.
Kinda resonates with a lot of what we see around us.
Inequality growing, the 'haves' have a lot more the have nots have two, three, four jobs, welfare for some of the others that are working.
Some have a few properties and can sleep well at night while others scurry about paying their mortgage and paying the interest. In fact, these landlords band together and get someone to advocate for them, as if they don't have a big enough advantage.
Thanks for the link, Weka. I'll try and have a look but I seem to have backlog of clips like this.
I've been trying to get my head around the intersection of trans rights and women's rights for some tine.
I got myself into a potential spot recently when in another online space I asked the writer of an opinion piece whether they felt trans rights can erode women's rights. The person didn't reply. But another commenter said that was the same stance taken in the past in discussions about women's rights and men's rights and asked me to provide examples of trans rights eroding women's rights.
I thought uh oh this isn't going to end well. I'm not reallly equipped for this and while I drafted a reply I haven't answered.
I find the space confusing but essentially I feel women are being asked/forced to give up their rights for trans people. Women need safe spaces and trans people need safe spaces but why is it women have to be the ones to let people into their spaces, some of whom make some of them feel unsafe? (I realise that mostly it's people wanting to identify as female rather than the reverse).
Competitive sports is another example. I'm guilty of over-simplifying things on occasion but I feel women should not have to compete against anyone who has the physiological advantage of starting life as a biological male. To me it's wrong and unfair.
I saw one cycling body overseas has now decided to have a women's elite category and an open elite category where anyone can compete as a way of adressing this particular issue.
it's definitely a good idea to practice care in those conversations, especially if you are using your RL name.
Also good is having the points and evidence ready. It's not going to convince the ideologues, but my experience is that many people will respond to thoughtful commentary backed up with evidence.
For instance, on sport, there are TRA lines about there being no evidence that TW have an advantage over women. This is patently nonsense (most people understand the physical disparities between women and men), but there is also a lot of very good analysis and research to back this up.
I will try and link some of the people to follow. Having a twitter account is very useful, but a FB account might suffice.
Kia ora Weka, is X post-Musk still useful, I thought he'd turned it right and gutted it.
I'd appreciate more links, but as I said on the "Strike" thread my energy is primarily focused elsewhere, where I believe I can actually make a difference in the life of my immediate whanau, my local community and wider afield.
As to practising care that's why I decided to put things in reverse and back away. I'm not going to convince the person who invited me to step into a yawning, black hole and give examples of how trans rights can erode women's rights. I would rather use my energies elsewhere.
The Standard continues to disappoint me personally about actually helping us to stand up and fight back against the awful government we have rather than just complaining about it, but I think I appreciate why you hang in there.
have to admit I find it pretty challenging here at times because of that reason. Debate is an important part of change, but we also need strategy, planning and action.
I'm still trying to work out how I can write here about climate and the things we can do and what if we changed and things worked out, in a way that people will read and engage with.
I’ve watched Triggernometry a bit as well. I wouldn’t call them right wing, not the way I see it anyway. I like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas and viewpoints without having a political spin.
I have no idea if you if you have seen the interview with a woman who is a evolutionary psychologist. It’s really interesting about how human nature evolved and to a certain extent the part of our brains that controls our automatic behaviour is designed to help humans survive in the wilds of Africa. She points out interesting differences between men and women as well as the evolutionary reasons for the behaviour, surprisingly it has nothing to do with politics.
they're definitely right of centre in terms of politics. They're just socially liberal righties.
I also really like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas. The impression I get is that they're secure in their politics and unafraid of ideas they disagree with. So refreshing.
Then all three of them are sitting there talking about the dynamic of why the left now think it's ok to call a woman a cunt…
I can't even express how depressing it is to watch right-of-centre interviewers explaining to left-wing men that using 'cunt' as an insulting term for a woman is deeply misogynist and especially so when used against women taking a stand for women's rights.
You illustrate well, one of the problems the left, especially liberal left has.
Instead of being able to post the link with a couple of sentences, there needs to be an explanation to avoid the 'thought terminating cliches' that emit from liberals when an idea that challenges their beliefs is expressed.
Rather put their fingers in their ears and say 'I can't hear you.'
Similar with Joe Rogan. He sits there and asks questions and gets answers. My best understanding is he had some Covidly controversial guests on. That got Neil Young and others upset. That denies a whole body of work that contains very interesting and challenging information from other guests. I understand Rogan now has 4 times the audience of anyone else on You Tube. (no link, sorry, my son showed me an image on his fone last night).
Similar to The Canadian Psychologist That Dare Not Speak His Name, I've learnt truckloads from him, but constant misrepresenting of his statements have other's beliefs trump facts.
I have found Joe Rogan fairly politically neutral (especially for an American in that it is a polarising country) or at least that is how he appears. His guests however are from all over the shop.
JP, I feel is an old school conservative, in that he values the family, freedom of speech etc. He is a critic of the extreme left. What I learn from him comes from 30 years lecturing and is fact/evidence based.
The reason why I commented on yr thread is that I see both getting misrepresented in their views.
I think there is a Venn diagram vibe to JP and others. I guess you share one with him calling out trans activism and the Canadian compulsion of speech/preferred pronouns but will be on opposite sides considering his views on, say, gender pay gap.
It's the cancelling I find self defeating and irritating, just because a wee tid bit jars with one's view of the world.
His explanation of the monogamy 'issue' in 2018 is worth the time IMO.
Links are NYT article, a Guardian scribe's upset at said article and JP's "On the New York Times and “Enforced Monogamy" .
In the Guardian there is a lot of selective quoting and emphasis of attacking the messenger rather than the message.
Edit. I will include this as I have found it profound from all parties. Sorry I haven’t found the original without a third party’s insights but they bear hearing. 15 minutes and following the Cathy Newman interview.
Nothing you, or I or even the NZ government can do, will persuade or influence the Israeli government to stop this war.
Where is the pressure to force Egypt to open the Gaza border for humanitarian reasons?
Amr's family were trying to raise international capital – in order to fund the extortionate prices Egyptian organizations are charging to even be considered for an Egyptian permit.
From your link….
On the day before he was killed, Amr managed to get a phone connection — telecommunications are often cut — to speak to his sister in Canada.
“Please get us out of here,” he pleaded.
The Egyptian firm Hala, which means “Welcome” in Arabic, provided travel permits for Gazans to enter Egypt for $350, before the Israeli assault. Since the genocide began, the firm has raised the price to $5,000 for an adult and $2,500 for a child. It has sometimes charged as much as $10,000 for a travel permit.
Hala has offices in Cairo and Rafah. Once the money is paid — Hala only accepts U.S. dollars — the name of the applicant is submitted to Egyptian authorities. It can take weeks to get a permit. It would cost around $25,000 to get Amr’s family out of Gaza, double that if they included his widowed aunt and three cousins. This was not a sum Amr’s relatives abroad could raise quickly. They set up a GoFundMe page here. They are still trying to collect enough money.
Egypt has adamantly refused to accept Gazan refugees. The "Palestinian cause" is more important than children's lives.
Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al-Sisi, however, has been adamant in refusing to allow humanitarian corridors or the entry of large numbers of Palestinians into Sinai. He has called it a “red line” that, if crossed, would “liquidate the Palestinian cause”.
Gotta wonder if 13,000 Children is enough for you all?
To my way of thinking, there has been a disappointingly large amount of hand-wringing by 'concerned' people everywhere – it's been going on for months.
Recent examples of refugee groups accepted by NZ include long-term detainees in Australian offshore camps, and some of those affected by conflict in Afghanistan and Russia's 'special operation' in Ukraine. Perhaps our govt should take a more ptoActive stance towards Gaza refugees – there’s still time, imho.
No Exit in Gaza [1 April 2024]
Now, 30 years later, 2.3 million Palestinians are trapped in Gaza, but unlike Bosnia, there is no place within that small, densely populated territory that even purports to be safe. Following the Hamas-led attacks in southern Israel on Oct. 7, 2023, Israeli forces have laid waste to vast areas, reducing much of the housing to rubble, with more than 31,000 people estimated killed, according to Gaza's Health Ministry, the majority women and children.
Most of Gaza's population has been displaced, many ordered to evacuate one area only to be bombed, starved and forced to flee again—and again. More than 1 million people who have fled to Rafah on Gaza's far southern border with Egypt live in fear as an Israeli military ground operation on Rafah and another mass evacuation looms.
The Plight of Palestinian Refugees, Explained [5 Jan 2024]
Palestinians are the world's largest stateless community. Here's everything you should know about their complicated plight as refugees.
…
In addition to the more logistical reasons, she [Anne Irfan, a lecturer and expert in displacement with a focus on Palestinian refugee history and the modern Middle East] adds there is a “deep suspicion” that what’s happening in the Gaza Strip is “cover for a second ‘Nakba,’” referencing the displacement of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians in the late 1940s.
“None of these states want to be complicit in that,” Irfan notes.
Asked whether there’s the possibility that these countries simply don’t want the responsibility of caring for more Palestinian refugees, Norman, of Rice University, says “that certainly plays into it.” This especially applies to Egypt, given the country’s history with regard to Palestinians.
“I think there's both that historic context of not wanting to sort of be the ones to actually deal with the Palestinian issue in terms of physically hosting people,” Norman says. “But then there's also Egypt’s politics around immigration and refugees that are not just Palestinians now.”
But, she adds, the messy politics of hosting Palestinian refugees extends beyond Egypt.
“Name a country where it's not going to be politically contentious,” Norman says.
I didn't realise that ~80% of the humans living in the Gaza Strip are refugees.
Wouldn't it be a true Act of (Christian) kindness if our CoC govt made efforts to facilitate the evacuation of a few Gaza refugees to Aotearoa NZ. Any day now.
Double standard claims over special visas for Gaza refugees [1 March 2024]
The immigration minister [Stanford] is being accused of double standards as families of those stuck in Gaza plead for the government to issue special visas so their loved ones can escape the warzone.
…
She [Katrina Mitchell-Kouttab – a Palestinian from the New Zealand Arab Association] said other countries have been evacuating families since the start of the war – so the move wouldn’t be unprecedented.
“I know of a family – within three days of the war, the Japanese government got them out pretty quickly.”
NB: Mods. Don't know why this reply (at 5) didn't 'nest' as a response to 4.2.1
Reading/writing on a desktop PC.
No biggie if it was just one of those mysterious internet things (or even, gasp, user error).
But just in case others are experiencing this.
No idea either. The comment_parent = 0, i.e., it was a stand-alone comment and not a reply to another comment. You did edit it but that wasn’t the cause either. So, I put it down to human error 😉
The solution is stopping the murder of civilians and ending the conflict. But you say it can't be stopped. And that sending them to other places, off their land is the way to keep them alive. It is, but the cost of that is the permanent loss of their land, and livelihood.
I would have thought as a kiwi, at the very least you might have some idea what it means to be removed from your land. And the difficulty once removed from your land of ever getting it back.
Yes. Better in exile, building a new life, than dead.
Although, not in the mind of religious extremists.
Most Kiwis have come to terms with the fact that they will never regain ancestral land. They build new lives. And create a future for their kids, rather than dwelling in the past. We are a nation of immigrants.
So Māori don't exist? Or the experience of Māori is – what exactly?
What religious extremists? My friends who are Christians in Gaza, are not extremists. They just don't want to lose their homeland, and what it means for them to live in a land which holds meaning to them. Meaning in a spiritual and historical sense. A place which connects them to family and what it means to be a Christian in the holy lands.
Friends in Sydney and Perth, struggle with being so far removed from the place of their birth. The mental health of the children of my friends is not great, and the suicide rates amongst the young male refuges, are bloody depressing.
Alive yes, but in a fulsome sense of being alive. I'm not totally convinced.
So the Irish diaspora doesn't exist. Or the African Americans?
Newsflash. None of those people want to go 'home' – they've built new lives elsewhere – with a better future for their kids. And while the first generation struggles (all immigrants do) – the subsequent generations are part of the new country. They have heritage from their home – but become part of the new place. Their new home. And where this fails, and you have enclaves of immigrants, you end up with serious social problems in the new country.
Given that there are less than 1,000 Christians in Gaza, I find it astonishing that you have many friends among this group. https://www.newarab.com/analysis/will-gazas-christian-community-survive-israels-war
And, most of them want to immigrate:
“The general thought among all Palestinian Christians now is to immigrate, after their homes and businesses were destroyed, and since there is no political horizon signalling an end to this crisis,”
I'm assuming that you were referring to an 'attitude' of white settler ideology – rather than specifically calling me a white settler.
I reciprocated with the 'religious extremist' attitude. I'm sure you're familiar with it in other contexts: "Better dead than XXX" (fill in type of person as you please)
And, it really doesn't matter what you or I or the president of Egypt thinks is 'better' for the people in Gaza. They want to leave (cf your original link to Amr). Since they have no rosy-tinted glasses view that Israel is going to stop any time soon.
Totally agree the last of the Palestinian Christians are going to leave. With a even smaller population on the west bank looking to move, we are seeing the end of Palestinian Christians in the Holy Lands in our life time.
The largest population of Palestinian Christians is in Sydney, with next highest grouping being Perth. I'd also like to point out that when I say Christian – I mean those who actively adhere to Christianity, and those who consider themselves cultural Christians. That drags the numbers up a bit.
A link for expanding on that, and it's a bloody good organization that will take donations, that will help people after they have left Gaza.
I think we basically agree, alive is better. My problem is two fold: The end of Cultural traditions extending back millennia, and the fact that their is no political solution. Exacerbated by one side hell bent on total death and destruction of the other.
And no I was not calling you a white settler, but the underlying influence as a set of ideas it has on society in general.
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Muriel Newman writes – Former US President Ronald Reagan once said, “Freedom is a fragile thing and it’s never more than one generation away from extinction. It is not ours by way of inheritance; it must be fought for and defended constantly by each generation.” The fight for ...
Why Courts should have said Waitangi Tribunal could not summons Karen Chhour Gary Judd writes – In the High Court, Justice Isacs declined to uphold the witness summons issued by the Waitangi Tribunal to compel Minister for Children, Karen Chhour, to appear before it to be ...
Bryce Edwards writes – The number of voices raising concerns about the Government’s Fast-Track Approvals Bill is rapidly growing. This is especially apparent now that Parliament’s select committee is listening to submissions from the public to evaluate the proposed legislation. Twenty-seven thousand submissions have been made to Parliament ...
An average of 166 New Zealand citizens left the country every day during the March quarter, up 54% from a year ago.Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The economy and housing market is sinking into a longer recession through the winter after a slump in business and consumer confidence in ...
The government has made it abundantly clear they’re addicted to the smell of new asphalt. On Tuesday they introduced a new term to the country’s roading lexicon, the Roads of Regional Significance (RoRS), a little brother for the Roads of National (Party) Significance (RoNS). Driving ahead with Roads of Regional ...
School is outAnd I walk the empty hallwaysI walk aloneAlone as alwaysThere's so many lucky penniesLying on the floorBut where the hell are all the lucky peopleI can't see them any moreYesterday morning, I’d just sent out my newsletter on Tama Potaka, and I was struggling to make the coffee. ...
Hi,I wanted to check in and ask how you’re doing.This is perhaps a selfish act, of attempting to find others feeling a similar way to me — that is to say, a little hopeless at the moment.Misery loves company, that sort of deal.Some context.I wish I could say I got ...
I have hitherto been fairly quiet on the new season of Rings of Power, on the basis that the underwhelming first season did not exactly build excitement – and the rumours were fairly daft. The only real thing of substance to come out has been that they have re-cast Adar ...
On February 14, 2023 we announced our Rebuttal Update Project. This included an ask for feedback about the added "At a glance" section in the updated basic rebuttal versions. This weekly blog post series highlights this new section of one of the updated basic rebuttal versions and serves as a ...
“The thing is,” Chris Luxon says, leaning forward to make his point, “this has always been my thing.”“This goes all the way back to the first multinational I worked for. I was saying exactly the same thing back then. The name of our business needs to be more clear; people ...
Buzz from the Beehive It’s been a momentous few days for Children’s Minister Karen Chhour. The Court of Appeal has overturned a High Court decision which blocked a summons order from the Waitangi Tribunal for her. And today she has announced the Government is putting children first by introducing to ...
In 2014 former Australian army lawyer David McBride leaked classified military documents about Australian war crimes to the ABC. Dubbed "The Afghan Files", the documents led to an explosive report on Australian war crimes, the disbanding of an entire SAS unit, and multiple ongoing prosecutions. The journalist who wrote the ...
Rob MacCulloch writes – According to the respected Pew Research Centre, “In seven of eight [European] countries surveyed, the most trusted news outlet asked about is the public news organization in each country”. For example, “in Sweden, an overwhelming majority (90%) say they trust the public broadcaster SVT”. ...
David Farrar writes – Kata MacNamara reports: Details of Tony Blakely’s involvement in the New Zealand Government’s response to the pandemic raise serious questions about the work of the Covid-19 Royal Commission of Inquiry over which he presides. It has long been clear that Blakely, a ...
Chris Trotter writes – Are you a Brahmin or a Merchant? Or, are you merely one of those whose lives are profoundly influenced by the decisions of Brahmins and Merchants? Those are the questions that are currently shaping the politics of New Zealand and the entire West. ...
RNZ reports – It’s supposed to be a haven of healing and spiritual awakening but residents of the Kawai Purapura community say they’ve been hurt and deceived. It’s the successor to the former Centrepoint commune, and has been on the bush block opposite Albany shopping centre since 2008. It ...
TL;DR : Here’s the top six items climate news for Aotearoa-NZ this week, as selected by Bernard Hickey and The Kākā’s climate correspondent Cathrine Dyer. Usually we have a video chat to go with this wrap, but were unable to do one this week. We’ll be back next week.Several reports ...
The Transport Minister has set a hard 'fiscal envelope' of $6.54 billion for transport capital spending. Photo: Lynn Grieveson / The KākāTL;DR: The economy is settling into a state of suspended animation as the Government’s funding freezes and job cuts chill confidence and combine with stubbornly high interest rates to ...
To be precise, the term “anti- Zionism” refers to (a) criticism of the political movement that created a modern Jewish state on the historical land of Israel, and to (b)the subjugation of Palestinians by the Israeli state. By contrast, the term “anti-Semitism” means bigotry and racism directed at Jewish people, ...
This is a re-post from the Climate Brink by Andrew Dessler Because hurricanes are one of the big-ticket weather disasters that humanity has to face, climate misinformers spend a lot of effort muddying the waters on whether climate change is making hurricanes more damaging. With the official start to the hurricane ...
Yesterday the Mayor released what he calls his “plan to save public transport” which is part of his final proposal for the Council’s Long Term Plan (LTP). This comes following consultation on the draft version that occurred in March which showed, once again, that people want more done on transport, especially ...
And it's a pleasure that I have knownAnd it's a treasure that I have gainedAotearoa’s coalition government is fragile. It’s held together by the obsequious sycophancy of Christopher Luxon, who willingly contorts his party into the fringe positions of his junior coalition partners and is unwilling to contradict them. The ...
The Select Committee hearing submissions on the fast-track consenting legislation is starting to become a beat-up of regional councils. The inflexibility and slow workings of the Councils were prominent in two submissions yesterday. One, from the Coromandel Marine Farmers Association, simply said that the Waikato Regional Council’s planning decisions were ...
Back in April, the High Court surprised everyone by ruling that Ministers are above the law, at least as far as the Waitangi Tribunal is concerned. The reason for this ruling was "comity" - the idea that the different branches of government shouldn't interfere with each other's functions. Which makes ...
Buzz from the BeehiveTolling was mentioned when Transport Minister Simeon Brown announced the government was re-introducing the Roads of National Significance (RoNS) programme, with 15 “crucial” projects to support economic growth and regional development across New Zealand. All RoNS would be four-laned, grade-separated highways, and all funding, financing, and ...
or the past 14 years, ever since the Spanish government cheated on an autonomy deal, Catalonia has reliably given pro-independence parties a majority of seats in their regional parliament. But now that seems to be over. Catalans went to the polls yesterday, and stripped the Catalan parties of their majority. ...
David Farrar writes – Radio NZ report: Labour Party leader Chris Hipkins said the Electoral Commission should make sure the system ran smoothly and “taking away the right of thousands of people to vote” was not the answer. “Thousands of people enroled and voted on the day. If ...
Don Brash writes – There was a rather revealing headline in the Herald on Sunday today (12 May). It read “One in 8 Auckland homes on market were bought during boom, may now sell for loss”. The first line of text noted that “New data shows one in ...
Mike Grimshaw writes – At a time when universities are understandably nervous regarding the establishment of the University Advisory Group (UAG) and the Science System Advisory Group (SSAG) it may seem strange – or even fool-hardy – to state that there are long-standing issues in the tertiary sector ...
Lindsay Mitchell writes – A lack of perspective can make something quite large or important seem small or irrelevant. Against a backdrop of high-profile, negative statistics it is easy to overlook the positive. For instance, the fact that 64 percent of Maori are employed is rarely reported. For ...
Earlier this year, the Herald ran a series of articles amounting to a sustained campaign against raised pedestrian crossings, by reporter Bernard Orsman. A key part of that campaign concerned the raised crossings being installed as part of the Pt Chevalier to Westmere project, with at least 10 articles over ...
TL;DR: The six key events to watch in Aotearoa-NZ’s political economy in the week to May 19 include:PM Christopher Luxon is expected to hold his weekly post-cabinet news conference at 4:00pm on Monday.Parliament is not sitting this week. It resumes next week for a two-week sitting session up to and ...
The Government’s introduction of legislation that would enable landlords to end tenancies with no reason marks a dark day for the 1.4 million people who rent their home in Aotearoa. ...
The Minister for Mental Health has found the Suicide Prevention Office and mental health support for 111 calls slipping through his fingers, says Labour spokesperson for Mental Health Ingrid Leary. ...
Today’s justification from the Minister for Children for scrapping protections for our tamariki was either a case of ignorance or deliberate deception. ...
The Green Party says the Government’s misguided policy on gangs will fail, following the announcement of the establishment of a national gang unit and district gang disruption units to target gang activities. ...
“With Police pay negotiations still unresolved after six months in Government, Mark Mitchell has today rolled the Commissioner out for a rebrand of their approach to gang crime,” Labour police spokesperson Ginny Andersen said. ...
The Government bringing back 50 charter schools will not increase achievement and is a distraction from the core mission of the education system, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Te Pāti Māori is showing extreme concern over the Environment Select Committees adoption of a lucky dip draw to determine hearings for the Fast Track Approvals bill. Of the 27,000 submissions, 2,900 requested to present. All organisations will be heard; however, the remaining 2,350 submitters will be subject to a ...
Today New Zealand First will introduce a Member’s Bill that will protect women’s spaces. The ‘Fair Access to Bathrooms Bill’ will require, primarily in the interest and safety of women and girls, that all new non-domestic publicly accessible buildings provide separate, clearly demarcated, unisex and single sex bathrooms. This Bill ...
The Green Party is welcoming Climate Change Minister Simon Watts’ continuation of Hon. James Shaw’s cross-party work on climate adaptation, now in the form of a Finance and Expenditure Committee Inquiry. ...
The National Government plans to cut 390 jobs at ACC, including roles in the areas of prevention of sexual violence, road safety and workplace safety. ...
The Government has been caught in opposition to evidence once again as it looks to usher in tried, tested and failed work seminar obligations for job-seeking beneficiaries. ...
The Green Party is welcoming the announcement by the Minister Responsible for RMA Reform Chris Bishop to approve most of the Wellington City Council’s District Plan recommendations. ...
David Seymour has failed to get the sweeping cuts he wanted to the free and healthy school lunch programme, Labour education spokesperson Jan Tinetti said. ...
Hon Willie Jackson has been invited by the Oxford Union to debate the motion “This House Believes British Museums are not Very British’ on May 23rd. ...
Green Party MP Hūhana Lyndon says her Public Works (Prohibition of Compulsory Acquisition of Māori Land) Amendment Bill is an opportunity to right some past wrongs around the alienation of Māori land. ...
A senior, highly respected King’s Counsel with decades of experience in our law courts, Gary Judd KC, has filed a complaint about compulsory tikanga Māori studies for law students - highlighting the utter depths of absurdity this woke cultural madness has taken our society. The tikanga regulations will compel law ...
The Government needs to be clear with the people of the Nelson Marlborough region about the changes it is considering for the Nelson Hospital rebuild, Labour health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall said. ...
Ministers must front up about which projects it will push through under its Fast Track Approvals legislation, Labour environment spokesperson Rachel Brooking said today. ...
The Government is again adding to New Zealand’s growing unemployment, this time cutting jobs at the agencies responsible for urban development and growing much needed housing stock. ...
With Minister Karen Chhour indicating in the House today that she either doesn’t know or care about the frontline cuts she’s making to Oranga Tamariki, we risk seeing more and more of our children falling through the cracks. ...
The Labour Party is saddened to learn of the death of Sir Robert Martin, a globally renowned disability advocate who led the way for disability rights both in New Zealand and internationally. ...
Labour is calling for the Government to urgently rethink its coalition commitment to restart live animal exports, Labour animal welfare spokesperson Rachel Boyack said. ...
Today’s Financial Stability Report has once again highlighted that poverty and deep inequality are political choices - and this Government is choosing to make them worse. ...
The Green Party is calling on the Government to do more for our households in most need as unemployment rises and the cost of living crisis endures. ...
Unemployment is on the rise and it’s only going to get worse under this Government, Labour finance spokesperson Barbara Edmonds said. Stats NZ figures show the unemployment rate grew to 4.3 percent in the March quarter from 4 percent in the December quarter. “This is the second rise in unemployment ...
The New Zealand Labour Party welcomes the entering into force of the European Union and New Zealand free trade agreement. This agreement opens the door for a huge increase in trade opportunities with a market of 450 million people who are high value discerning consumers of New Zealand goods and ...
The National-led Government continues its fiscal jiggery pokery with its Pharmac announcement today, Labour Health spokesperson Ayesha Verrall says. “The government has increased Pharmac funding but conceded it will only make minimal increases in access to medicine”, said Ayesha Verrall “This is far from the bold promises made to fund ...
This afternoon’s interim Waitangi Tribunal report must be taken seriously as it affects our most vulnerable children, Labour children’s spokesperson Willow-Jean Prime. ...
"On the 27th of March, I sought assurances from the Chief Executive, Department of Internal Affairs, that the Department’s correct processes and policies had been followed in regards to a passport application which received media attention,” says Minister of Internal Affairs Brooke van Velden. “I raised my concerns after being ...
Attorney-General Judith Collins has announced the appointment of three new District Court Judges, to replace Judges who have recently retired. Peter James Davey of Auckland has been appointed a District Court Judge with a jury jurisdiction to be based at Whangarei. Mr Davey initially started work as a law clerk/solicitor with ...
Associate Education Minister David Seymour is calling on the Post Primary Teachers’ Association (PPTA) to put ideology to the side and focus on students’ learning, in reaction to the union holding paid teacher meetings across New Zealand about charter schools. “The PPTA is disrupting schools up and down the ...
Commerce and Consumer Affairs Minister Andrew Bayly today announced the appointment of Craig Stobo as the new chair of the Financial Markets Authority (FMA). Mr Stobo takes over from Mark Todd, whose term expired at the end of April. Mr Stobo’s appointment is for a five-year term. “The FMA plays ...
Surf Life Saving New Zealand and Coastguard New Zealand will continue to be able to keep people safe in, on, and around the water following a funding boost of $63.644 million over four years, Transport Minister Simeon Brown and Associate Transport Minister Matt Doocey say. “Heading to the beach for ...
New Zealand and Tuvalu have reaffirmed their close relationship, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters says. “New Zealand is committed to working with Tuvalu on a shared vision of resilience, prosperity and security, in close concert with Australia,” says Mr Peters, who last visited Tuvalu in 2019. “It is my pleasure ...
New Zealand is gravely concerned about the situation in New Caledonia, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The escalating situation and violent protests in Nouméa are of serious concern across the Pacific Islands region,” Mr Peters says. “The immediate priority must be for all sides to take steps to de-escalate the ...
Prime Minister Christopher Luxon met today with Samoa’s O le Ao o le Malo, Afioga Tuimalealiifano Vaaletoa Sualauvi II, who is making a State Visit to New Zealand. “His Highness and I reflected on our two countries’ extensive community links, with Samoan–New Zealanders contributing to all areas of our national ...
Transport Minister Simeon Brown has announced that he has approved Waiheke Island ferry operator Island Direct to be eligible for SuperGold Card funding, paving the way for a commercial agreement to bring the operator into the scheme. “Island Direct started operating in November 2023, offering an additional option for people ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters today announced further sanctions on 28 individuals and 14 entities providing military and strategic support for Russia’s invasion of Ukraine. “Russia is directly supported by its military-industrial complex in its illegal aggression against Ukraine, attacking its sovereignty and territorial integrity. New Zealand condemns all entities and ...
A year on from the tragedy at Loafers Lodge, the Government is working hard to improve building fire safety, Building and Construction Minister Chris Penk says. “I want to share my sincere condolences with the families and friends of the victims on the anniversary of the tragic fire at Loafers ...
Ka nui te mihi kia koutou. Kia ora and good afternoon, everyone. Thank you so much for having me here in the lead up to my Government’s first Budget. Before I get started can I acknowledge: Simon Bridges – Auckland Business Chamber CEO. Steve Jurkovich – Kiwibank CEO. Kids born ...
New Zealand and Vanuatu will enhance collaboration on issues of mutual interest, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “It is important to return to Port Vila this week with a broad, high-level political delegation which demonstrates our deep commitment to New Zealand’s relationship with Vanuatu,” Mr Peters says. “This ...
Minister for Land Information, Chris Penk will travel to Peru this week to represent New Zealand at a meeting of trade ministers from the Asia-Pacific region on behalf of Trade Minister Todd McClay. The annual Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation (APEC) Ministers Responsible for Trade meeting will be held on 17-18 May ...
Minister of Education Erica Stanford will head to the United Kingdom this week to participate in the 22nd Conference of Commonwealth Education Ministers (CCEM) and the 2024 Education World Forum (EWF). “I am looking forward to sharing this Government’s education priorities, such as introducing a knowledge-rich curriculum, implementing an evidence-based ...
Minister of Education Erica Stanford has today thanked outgoing New Zealand Qualifications Authority Chair, Hon Tracey Martin. “Tracey Martin tendered her resignation late last month in order to take up a new role,” Ms Stanford says. Ms Martin will relinquish the role of Chair on 10 May and current Deputy ...
New Zealand Prime Minister Christopher Luxon and President Emmanuel Macron of France today announced a new non-governmental organisation, the Christchurch Call Foundation, to coordinate the Christchurch Call’s work to eliminate terrorist and violent extremist content online. This change gives effect to the outcomes of the November 2023 Call Leaders’ Summit, ...
Distinguished public servant and former diplomat Sir Maarten Wevers will lead the independent review into the disability support services administered by the Ministry of Disabled People – Whaikaha. The review was announced by Disability Issues Minister Louise Upston a fortnight ago to examine what could be done to strengthen the ...
Today’s announcement by Police Commissioner Andrew Coster of a National Gang Unit and district Gang Disruption Units will help deliver on the coalition Government’s pledge to restore law and order and crack down on criminal gangs, Police Minister Mark Mitchell says. “The National Gang Unit and Gang Disruption Units will ...
Foreign Minister Winston Peters has today expressed regret at North Korea’s aggressive rhetoric towards New Zealand and its international partners. “New Zealand proudly stands with the international community in upholding the rules-based order through its monitoring and surveillance deployments, which it has been regularly doing alongside partners since 2018,” Mr ...
Air Vice-Marshal Tony Davies MNZM is the new Chief of Defence Force, Defence Minister Judith Collins announced today. The Chief of Defence Force commands the Navy, Army and Air Force and is the principal military advisor to the Defence Minister and other Ministers with relevant portfolio responsibilities in the defence ...
Legislation to repeal section 7AA of the Oranga Tamariki Act has been introduced to Parliament. The Bill’s introduction reaffirms the Coalition Government’s commitment to the safety of children in care, says Minister for Children, Karen Chhour. “While section 7AA was introduced with good intentions, it creates a conflict for Oranga ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins will this week travel to the UK and Italy to meet with her defence counterparts, and to attend Battles of Cassino commemorations. “I am humbled to be able to represent the New Zealand Government in Italy at the commemorations for the 80th anniversary of what was ...
The upcoming Budget will include funding for up to 50 charter schools to help lift declining educational performance, Associate Education Minister David Seymour announced today. $153 million in new funding will be provided over four years to establish and operate up to 15 new charter schools and convert 35 state ...
“The results of the public consultation on the terms of reference for the Royal Commission into COVID-19 Lessons has now been received, with results indicating over 13,000 submissions were made from members of the public,” Internal Affairs Minister Brooke van Velden says. “We heard feedback about the extended lockdowns in ...
Foreign Minister, Defence Minister, other Members of Parliament Acting Chief of Defence Force, Secretary of Defence Distinguished Guests Defence and Diplomatic Colleagues Ladies and Gentlemen, Good afternoon, tēna koutou, apinun tru It’s a pleasure to be back in Port Moresby today, and to speak here at the Kumul Leadership ...
Health, infrastructure, renewable energy, and stability are among the themes of the current visit to Papua New Guinea by a New Zealand political delegation, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “Papua New Guinea carries serious weight in the Pacific, and New Zealand deeply values our relationship with it,” Mr Peters ...
The coalition Government is launching Roads of Regional Significance to sit alongside Roads of National Significance as part of its plan to deliver priority roading projects across the country, Transport Minister Simeon Brown says. “The Roads of National Significance (RoNS) built by the previous National Government are some of New Zealand’s ...
A high-level New Zealand political delegation in Honiara today congratulated the new Government of Solomon Islands, led by Jeremiah Manele, on taking office. “We are privileged to meet the new Prime Minister and members of his Cabinet during his government’s first ten days in office,” Deputy Prime Minister and ...
New Zealand voted in favour of a resolution broadening Palestine’s participation at the United Nations General Assembly overnight, Foreign Minister Winston Peters says. “The resolution enhances the rights of Palestine to participate in the work of the UN General Assembly while stopping short of admitting Palestine as a full ...
Introduction Good morning. It’s a great privilege to be here at the 2024 Infrastructure Symposium. I was extremely happy when the Prime Minister asked me to be his Minister for Infrastructure. It is one of the great barriers holding the New Zealand economy back from achieving its potential. Building high ...
Defence Minister Judith Collins today announced the upcoming Budget will include new funding of $571 million for Defence Force pay and projects. “Our servicemen and women do New Zealand proud throughout the world and this funding will help ensure we retain their services and expertise as we navigate an increasingly ...
New Zealand’s ability to cope with climate change will be strengthened as part of the Government’s focus to build resilience as we rebuild the economy, Climate Change Minister Simon Watts says. “An enduring and long-term approach is needed to provide New Zealanders and the economy with certainty as the climate ...
Jobseeker beneficiaries who have work obligations must now meet with MSD within two weeks of their benefit starting to determine their next step towards finding a job, Social Development and Employment Minister Louise Upston says. “A key part of the coalition Government’s plan to have 50,000 fewer people on Jobseeker ...
A new standalone Social Investment Agency will power-up the social investment approach, driving positive change for our most vulnerable New Zealanders, Social Investment Minister Nicola Willis says. “Despite the Government currently investing more than $70 billion every year into social services, we are not seeing the outcomes we want for ...
Check against delivery Good morning. It is a pleasure to be with you to outline the Coalition Government’s approach to our first Budget. Thank you Mark Skelly, President of the Hutt Valley Chamber of Commerce, together with your Board and team, for hosting me. I’d like to acknowledge His Worship ...
Your Excellency Ambassador Meredith, Members of the Diplomatic Corps and Ambassadors from European Union Member States, Ministerial colleagues, Members of Parliament, and other distinguished guests, Thank you everyone for joining us. Ladies and gentlemen - In diplomacy, we often speak of ‘close’ and ‘long-standing’ relations. ...
The Therapeutic Products Act (TPA) will be repealed this year so that a better regime can be put in place to provide New Zealanders safe and timely access to medicines, medical devices and health products, Associate Health Minister Casey Costello announced today. “The medicines and products we are talking about ...
The Minister Responsible for RMA Reform, Chris Bishop, today released his decision on twenty recommendations referred to him by the Wellington City Council relating to its Intensification Planning Instrument, after the Council rejected those recommendations of the Independent Hearings Panel and made alternative recommendations. “Wellington notified its District Plan on ...
Rape Awareness Week (6-10 May) is an important opportunity to acknowledge the continued effort required by government and communities to ensure that all New Zealanders can live free from violence, say Ministers Karen Chhour and Louise Upston. “With 1 in 3 women and 1 in 8 men experiencing sexual violence ...
The star of Dark City: The Cleaner takes us through his life in TV, including the VHS revolution and the John Campbell impression that started it all. Best known for his comedic roles, Cohen Holloway says he struggled at times to maintain the stone cold facade of serial killer on ...
David Hill remembers an old friend, who you’ve probably never heard of. My friend Doug never travelled; he had little interest in the world beyond his own tiny rural town. I’ve rarely known anyone who radiated such contentment. Doug (I’ll call him that) died in March. You won’t know him. ...
Some of the earliest photos of life in Aotearoa are on display at Auckland Museum right now – but the identities of some of the people in them are a mystery.What was it like to be one of the first people in New Zealand to have their photo taken? ...
Since its founding almost a decade ago, Featherston Booktown has grown into one of the country’s most interesting and idiosyncratic literary events. Erin Banks reports from the audience. “Come in, have you had lunch? I’m about to make a cheese toastie.” Mary Biggs, operations manager of Featherston Booktown Karukatea Festival, ...
After 33 years abroad, Loveni Enari recently returned to Aotearoa and Samoa in what a friend joked was an “existential crisis”. He learnt and re-learnt so much about his family, friends and both countries. Almost as an afterthought, he got a Samoan tatau. This is his story. (Accompanying it are ...
Nearly 30 years ago, two people told me they’d killed a woman they knew. I thought the truth would come out, that others would tell it. In the end, I had to. The Sunday Essay is made possible thanks to the support of Creative New Zealand.Fact: in 1995, Angela Blackmoore ...
Editor Madeleine Chapman looks back at the week and shines a light on some increasingly rare longform journalism. Mōrena and welcome to The Weekend where there will sadly be no aurora to see. After a busy week last week of short, sharp pieces, this week we swung the other way, ...
ANALYSIS:By David Robie, editor of Asia Pacific Report Jean-Marie Tjibaou, a revered Kanak visionary, was inspirational to indigenous Pacific political activists across Oceania, just like Tongan anthropologist and writer Epeli Hao’ofa was to cultural advocates. Tragically, he was assassinated in 1989 by an opponent within the independence movement during ...
Forget thin is in, apparently now bigger is better … or is it? After over a decade of body positivity, girls, teens and women are even more confused about what body positivity actually is. The movement began with women confronting unrealistic expectations of how their bodies should look. But sub-strands ...
Grace always sat at the bar at the back of The Cambridge, where she could watch who came in. A huge mirror ran the length of the pub, so you could sometimes watch people without them knowing. The mirror made the place seem a lot bigger than it really was. ...
MONDAY Sheriff Mark Mitchell rose at dawn. He had a long day’s ride ahead of him. He was headed for Waikeria. Waikeria! Even the name itself stirred his blood, and set root in his imagination. There was nothing and no one in Waikeria. But he would bend it to his ...
The first phase of the inquest into the death of Gore toddler Lachlan Jones finished this week, turning up plenty of revelations and few answers. But through all the confusion, heartbreak and antipathy on display, the simple fact at the heart of this case remains: if little Lachie’s body had ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Roger Benjamin, Professor in Art History, University of Sydney “She’s no oil painting”. Those were the unkind words of a colleague commenting on the subject of Vincent Namatjira’s acrylic painting, Gina. Every one of the prominent Australians and cultural heroes in Namatjira’s ...
Government plans to require local councils hold a referendum on whether to have Māori wards breaches the Treaty of Waitangi, a Waitangi Tribunal report has found. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Tim Harcourt, Industry Professor and Chief Economist, University of Technology Sydney This year the National Rugby League (NRL) opened its season in Las Vegas. It was an audacious move by the league’s ambitious head honcho Peter V’Landys to showcase the game in ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Catherine Strong, Associate Professor, Music Industry, RMIT University Leading music organisations have praised the federal budget for its investment in the live music sector. The budget includes A$8.6 million for a program called Revive Live: to provide essential support to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marnee Shay, Associate Professor, Principal Research Fellow, The University of Queensland The 2024 federal budget contains A$110 million for Indigenous education. This includes funding for various different organisations to represent and help Indigenous people as well as scholarships in a bid to ...
Air New Zealand has confirmed Nouméa’s Tontouta International airport in New Caledonia is closed until Tuesday. The airline earlier told RNZ it would update customers as soon as it could. Earlier today, Foreign Affairs Minister Winston Peters told RNZ Morning Report government officials had been working on an “hourly basis” ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Grant Linley, PhD Candidate in Ecology, Charles Sturt University Grant Linley Australia’s unprecedented Black Summer bushfires in 2019–20 created ideal conditions for misinformation to spread, from the insidious to the absurd. It was within this context that a bizarre story ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Marcel Scharth, Lecturer in Business Analytics, University of Sydney OpenAI executive Mira Murati launching GPT-4o.OpenAI Earlier this week OpenAI launched GPT-4o (“o” for “omni”), a new version of the artificial intelligence (AI) system powering the popular ChatGPT chatbot. GPT-4o is promoted ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Treasure McGuire, Assistant Director of Pharmacy, Mater Health SEQ in conjoint appointment as Associate Professor of Pharmacology, Bond University and as Associate Professor (Clinical), The University of Queensland Speedkingz/Shutterstock Menopause is a natural biological process that marks the end of a ...
A new poem by Hannah Patterson. Xiāng There’s a pear tree in our backyard And Xiāng tells me She can’t eat them anymore Not after some things that have happened in her life. She tells me, in Mandarin The word for pear sounds the same as the word for disassociation ...
‘Cycling Works’ aims to show business support for citywide cycle infrastructure. This is an excerpt from our weekly environmental newsletter Future Proof. Sign up here. Last week, supermarket giant Foodstuffs lost its attempt to block the construction of a cycle lane outside Thorndon New World in Wellington. The Spinoff’s Wellington editor ...
The only published and available best-selling indie book chart in New Zealand is the top 10 sales list recorded every week at Unity Books’ stores in High St, Auckland, and Willis St, Wellington.AUCKLAND1 Slow Productivity by Cal Newport (Penguin, $40)Taking out the top spot in Auckland this ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Ian Lowe, Emeritus Professor, School of Environment and Science, Griffith University For decades, Australia has exported uranium – but not used it, other than in the Lucas Heights research reactor. But change is coming. We now face a rapidly deepening commitment to ...
"In future I should walk away," Green MP Julie Anne Genter says after complaints over an exchange in Parliament and from two members of the public. ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Jonathan Graffam, PhD Candidate in Theatre, Monash University Gianna Rizzo/Malthouse Music pumps; lights pulsate; two sweaty bodies sway together, touching, breathing in each other’s scent. A male body framed by downlight restlessly shifts between stances and gestures. He undresses. The intensity ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sandra van der Laan, Professor of Accounting, University of Sydney Mtaya/Shutterstock At some point, you or someone else will need to make a decision about your “send-off”. Most Australians die in an institution, such as a hospital or aged care facility. ...
Asia Pacific Report Vanuatu Prime Minister Charlot Salwai — who is also Chairman of the Melanesian Spearhead Group — has reaffirmed MSG’s support of the pro-independence umbrella group Kanak and Socialist National Liberation Front (FLNKS) stance opposing the French government’s constitutional bill “unfreezing” the New Caledonia Electoral Roll. It is ...
Producer Susan Leonard remembers her father Ernie, a pioneer of Māori television, and how his legacy lives on in Pathfinders.My father was a fabulous man. His name was Ernie Leonard and he started in TV in the 1970s when it was still glamorous – when TVNZ made behind the ...
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Loading…(function(i,s,o,g,r,a,m){var ql=document.querySelectorAll('A,DIV,A[data-quiz],DIV[data-quiz]'); if(ql){if(ql.length){for(var k=0;k<ql.length;k++){ql[k].id='quiz-embed-'+k;ql[k].href="javascript:var i=document.getElementById('quiz-embed-"+k+"');try{qz.startQuiz(i)}catch(e){i.start=1;i.style.cursor='wait';i.style.opacity='0.5'};void(0);"}}};i['QP']=r;i[r]=i[r]||function(){(i[r].q=i[r].q||[]).push(arguments)},i[r].l=1*new Date();a=s.createElement(o),m=s.getElementsByTagName(o)[0];a.async=1;a.src=g;m.parentNode.insertBefore(a,m)})(window,document,'script','https://take.quiz-maker.com/3012/CDN/quiz-embed-v1.js','qp'); Got a good quiz question?Send Newsroom your questions. The post Newsroom daily quiz, Friday 17 May appeared first on Newsroom. ...
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https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/05/police-and-defence-dogs-upper-hutt-to-host-international-event/
Other capability enhancements.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/05/watch-first-new-zealand-c-130j-hercules-completes-test-flight/
https://airpetsinternational.com/military-pet-relocation/
AI has solved the problem of a shortage of IT workers.
https://www.1news.co.nz/2024/04/05/where-have-all-the-it-jobs-gone-report-identifies-a-culprit/
So when will the upgrade of government IT systems go more smoothly?
This is fascinating, and such a good explanation of the culture wars. But it needs to be understood in context, so I will attempt a precis (sorry, it ended up being long).
The hosts of Triggernometry are two right wing intellectual men. The reason lefties like me watch their show is because they are one of the few places where the interviews are about eliciting belief and meaning rather than simply using polemic or clickbait rhetoric for whatever politics/position.
They interview people with a wide range of beliefs and politics, from across the political spectrums.
The young man they are interviewing is of a different age demographic and milieu. He's most recently been working for an online LW media outlet, but has worked with both the left and right (including far right). I don't quite get him, and in the past have thought he was a grifter and a bit of a dick. But here he is showing more mature analsysis.
He came to fame recently because he interviewed right wing media personality and trans identified male (trans woman) India Willoughby. Willoughby has a gender recognition certificate and often insists they are literally a woman. They're on twitter and there is a lot of fighting between IW and gender critical people, including JK Rowling.
In the interview with the young man, Willoughby claimed that they had made a complaint to the police about JKR misgendering them on tweets and this was a hate crime. This was a few weeks before the Scottish Hate Crime law came into being on April 1 (JKR lives in Scotland). The police declined to investigate.
But the statement they had done this was a big scoop for the young man, and he threw it out onto twitter into everyone's faces in a stupid way and got an understandably negative response (those tweets now deleted by his media org afaik).
JKR responded on twitter a number of times because lines were being crossed and the young dude got a lot more than he bargained for. He ended up tweeting to JKR that she was a putrid c*nt. He appears to have been having a melt down rather than simply being a fuckwit.
Not too long after that he unreservedly apologised and took responsibility, deleting the tweets. JKR accepted his apology gracefully and asked everyone to back off. Young dude disappears for awhile.
In this video, he is talking about all of that, comes across as quite naive, the Triggernometry guys are going kind of light on him but pull him up on a few things.
At the time stamp he says how since then lefties he knows have been telling him that JKR is a cunt and he shouldn't have deleted his tweets. Then all three of them are sitting there talking about the dynamic of why the left now think it's ok to call a woman a cunt, that it is extremely misogynistic. Compare this with the resounding silence from the left at all the misogynistic shit being thrown at gender critical women for the past decade.
He also points out very well that both sides no longer consider the people on the other side human, and that this is going to go very badly.
What women now understand very very well is that RW men will stand up for them (to an extent) and LW men won't.
This in a nutshell is why the left is losing the culture wars. Most of the liberal left is still running round thinking that our politics are more important than people. He tangata, he tangata is lipservice and only applicable to people we like and agree with.
Meanwhile, the structure of the traditional left/right spectrum is breaking down. I see so many women on social media (more than I can count) talking about now being politically homeless (UK, US and NZ). They have picked a side that is anti-left. And the liberal left's response is don't let the door hit you on the way out bigots, while at the same time not understanding that we are now outnumbered and outgunned.
https://youtu.be/mnrCsdOe1c4?t=1943
There about 5 minutes relevant to what I just said (maybe more, I'm still watching).
People right across the political spectrum get sucked into media narratives. In fact given the advent of the internet and particularly social media taking over news we probably have a smaller range of narratives as individual's than the 90's.
Fundamentally the left and right are about as susceptible to moral panics as each other.
The only winning strategy with culture wars is not to play.
It's a nice idea, but women simply aren't going to walk away from the sex/gender wars, so the issue becomes how to convert the culture war side of that into useful debate and political rapprochement.
The next bit in that video is talking the social media manipulation and also MSM. The young dude working at Byline has spend a number of years going out and doing actual reporting without an agenda on issues like why a steel works is closing down. And still getting millions of views.
MSM were cutting that kind of reporting and often the MSM didn't know why the steel works was closing. But he just went and talked to workers and people who lived there who explained it and that no-one else was talking to.
It was inspiring. I need to go look up some of his past work. It's very pertinent given the cuts to NZ journalism and news.
Well, now that the Labour Party is employing Shaneel Lal, I am seriously considering the cancellation of the automatic payment to the Party I have done for over 40 years.
have to admit that if he had been hired by the Greens I'd be feeling the same. My commitment to strategic voting only stretches so far.
Let's be grateful that his social media history probably rules him out of ever becoming an MP.
Seriously, Labour have employed Shaneel Lal? Wow that’s crazy I certainly get the feeling he would be a highly unsuitable candidate for any position of power.
The Labour Government had already employed him during the last six years as an advisor to the Ministry of Education.
I'm assuming the current cropping of government employers may have ended that contract, making his employment with Labour a shift rather than a new decision.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shaneel-lal-489190194/details/experience/
So anyone working in a public service job is working for the *** (party) government and an employee in an MP's office is working for the party of the MP?
I'm joining you in your Farcebook-like response SPC to say
'Not necessarily'
No, of course not. You are right.
More accurately: The recent clearout of consultants MAY have meant that he was available for work. His advocacy and consultancy work, MAY have meant – like others in the same situation – that he reached out to his existing network for employment. Which MAY have included members of the Labour Party.
More unsuitable that Uffindell? Or less?
Employed by a Labour MP.
I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?
How many National Party members ever considered ending party membership because of … anything at all?
That party is the ultimate self interest cartel. Middle class just wants a tax cut (no CGT, no estate taxes), a lower MW (lower employment cost), less spent on poor people (welfare/state housing etc).
Yep.
Is there some reason you are missing the point here SPC? It has nothing to do with his sexuality but everything to with his character/personality which is wanting.
Shaneel Lal was in large part responsible for the massing of people in Albert park in March 2023 that prevented women from speaking. Notably (some) the political left seem captured by the phrase 'transwomen are women' (tip they remain male in every single cell in their male bodies)
The image of PM Hipkins fluffing about trying to answer the question from Sean Plunket on 'what is a woman?' is hard to remove from one's mind. The image of foul mouthed tweets from Lal also.
Shaneel Lal & cohorts are in large part reponsible for the rise in the questioning of routine biology.
So I am not sure what he brings unless there is some sort of mana in bringing some sort of anti woman, anti science person to Labour. It certainly keeps up the 'good work' enabling many to wonder what is going on with the left in NZ and to laugh at us.
Anyway we are not concerned about Nat party. Their have been many 'own goals' from the Nats with their MPs.
Somehow many thought that the Labour Party would not be doing such a thing. That Labour had an eye on the optics, that Labour had learned something from the inept handling of the LWS protests at Albert Park.
It is the Labour Party that many are stratching their heads about in the employement of Lal. It shows to many how far away the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them.
To suggest that "the Labour Party has strayed from any pretence that women, as a whole, are important to them." is odd, imo. The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided, "Nah, we don't need them/their votes" Pretence? Hardly. They weren't pretending in the first place, so how could they have strayed? Have you noticed, I presume you have, that there are women in the Labour Party? Do you assume they are voiceless? Doesn't seem that way to me.
Really?
So how come the employment of Lal seems to have gone unremarked on?
How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM
How come Labout as a whole has not condemned the violence meted out towards women at Albert Park?
All I am saying is that Lal seems on the face of it to bring little to the party and what he does bring, should be weighed against his generally anti social views in other walks of life. With 100s of competent policy analysts etc being shed from the PS since the election there should have been a better pool to choose from.
"How come Hipkins was so gauche and surprised with the question from Plunket. His minders were so blind to the fact that 'something' was building up that they did not see the need to brief the PM"
You're absolving Hipkins for his poor response, and blaming his minders?
Fair enough. Hadn't heard anyone stand up for Hipkins as you have here, Shanreagh – good for you!
It might be odd to you Robert, but those of us that have been following the gender/sex wars for a long time and been involved in figuring out and addressing the concerns of women, we understand perfectly.
NZ Labour have a long history now of sex denialism, prioritising the perceived rights of trans identified men over women, and of their MPs failing in their duty to represent their representing women's interests as a whole.
Within the Labour Party membership, there are many women who don't support GII over women's rights, and it's been very hard for them to speak because of No Debate.
" we understand perfectly."
So it seems. And you will tolerate no dissent or questioning of your perfect understanding.
Robert do tell us how women are wrong in our understanding?
How can we improve/expand the knowledge of what is affecting women of the Left.
Shanreagh – what could anyone say to a group that already "understands perfectly"?
If ever there was a discussion-killer, it's that!
The party in government when people were able to identify by gender on drivers licenses and passports was National.
The National and ACT parties voted for the self ID legislation and do not propose to make any change.
so? What's your point exactly?
Do the National Party and ACT Party have a no debate policy, or do the women in the parties not care to raise the issue?
Young NZer of the Year 2023 employed by Labour Party – now that would be a headline to stir the blood. Has anyone else heard the same? Time to purge Labour of its trans taint.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaneel_Lal#Other_work
Caught up in a wind up? I winder…
context:
No Debate means that progressive gender critical voices have largely been silence. That leaves a vacuum for the reactionaries and the right to drive the narrative. Unfortunately that also means that the evidence is poorly presented.
No debate has been an issue, but I'm not seeing much evidence of it here and now – not seeing much evidence at all, actually.
If Labour severed/repudiated its links to the tainted trans in question, would that help? Doubt it – some taints do linger. Maybe time will tell.
when you say here and now, do you mean TS? Or in the Labour Party? Or NZ?
TS – it's a great platform for debate. Is the Labour Party employing a tainted trans? Someone must know – it'll leak soon…
"The Labour Party, I assume, will be acutely aware that women are important to them – do you think they've decided" ah, we don't need them/their votes"
Robert could it be you have been too busy with other things, or poss not interested what the Labour Party thought about the women's vote…
Some History :
The Women's Rights Party was the result of one active member splitting away from the Labour Party ….their party vote was 2,513 at the last election.
Also many (men and women) voted for NZF in the last election, thinking they would hold to their promise to address the 'genderism' language that had infiltrated NZ Govenment Departments.
"Genderism"= the denial of sexed bodies, among other things
Remember NZ claims to be secular society.
So it is the politics of the advocacy for the group the person is part of, not their identity or sexuality …
You oppose the cause and want no one in support of that cause to be a member of or employed by the Labour Party. I get it all right.
First you suggest that a lesbian considering stopping her long AP to the Labour Party over the hiring of Lal is because she is homophobic.
Secondly, after it's been explained, you now say it's about objection to the 'cause', even after Shanreagh specifically said it was about Lal and his character.
If you still don't understand the point here I suggest you ask for clarification rather than making shit up.
Thanks Weka, agree this is much better said than I would have said.
Show me where I did that.
Visubversa: thinking about cancelling my AP because Labour employed Lal
SPC: "I wonder if a National Party member ever considered ending party membership because a homosexual/lesbian was employed by an MP?"
At the least, you are blatantly misrepresenting visub's point. At worse you are suggesting that her reasons were because the Lab MP had employed someone who is queer.
If you didn't mean the latter, now is your chance to clarify.
No I was not.
I was comparing someone on the left considering leaving a left wing party because an MP hired a transgender activist to someone on the right leaving a right wing party because an MP hired someone who was a homosexual/lesbian rights activist.
That this requires an explanation is how absurdly difficult it is to debate this issue on the site.
ok, that’s kind of what I was thinking. This is how I interpreted that:
RW person quits National over them hiring a gay rights activist = homophobia
therefore if a LW person quits Labour over them hiring a trans rights activists, this equates to transphobia.
The problem here is this:
I will also point out that rather than saying gay rights activist, you in fact said gay person,
Which is where the confusion probably started.
So complain all you like about having to explain things, but I will just reinforce the fact that too many people currently think they can do short comments and then complain when people get the wrong end of the stick.
"That this requires an explanation is how absurdly difficult it is to debate this issue on the site."
QFT
You replied to my comment of 11.49am, so the elaboration of my 10.07 comment had already occurred.
So what form of transright's activism is not misogynist, if you are claiming it is Lal's version that is?
I can't speak for Shanreagh, but on the face of it this is just stupid. It's also wilfully ignorant, when the rest of us know that the problem is Lal.
If it is not Lal being a transgender rights activist, what is the character issue?
His (Shanel lal) character issue can be put down to the type of attitude that screams “Im right, you’re wrong” and “how dare you contradict me”. If he was a regular straight white dude had a regular professional job as say a manager with staff, working in finance then he would be highly problematic. But he is politically to the left and has very a fixed ideology that he won’t accept being questioned, let alone challenged. Because “we” mustn’t upset the guy, “we”go down the wrong path because “we” are scared of being denounced as being impure.
Surely this should be seen as a warning for us all
Only the almighty is perfect and beyond reproach. If we as an individual reach the stage when we are unquestionably right, our time in this world has com to an end. Mortal men who challenge the gods inevitably end up as despots.
Lal was very instrumental in the violence that happened at LWS Auckland. In the week leading up he was running terf = nazi lines, on national television, and egging on the people that eventually became a mob.
He's a misogynist. After the event, he used victim-blaming rhetoric about women who had been subjected to violence, on this Linkd In
e
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/shaneel-lal-489190194_posie-parker-arrived-at-albert-park-and-caged-activity-7045280513665769473-5DK9/?trk=public_profile_like_view
He uses lies in his activism, he's a loose unit in that sense and that make him a liability for any political party.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/tv-radio/301012719/activist-shaneel-lal-made-inaccurate-claim-about-posie-parker-media-watchdog-finds
In that interview he also made out that KJK was a reactionary nutjob by saying that she thinks people are being murdered and put into a blender. In fact in one of her videos she referred to a known case in the UK where that was done to a 14 year old girl who was probably kidnapped by grooming gangs (which KJK also talked about and is also a known thing).
So here is Lal completely misrepresenting a political opponent and a political situation. It's just stupid having someone like that working politics.
It’s interesting that he used “nazi” to describe a group of woman who he disagrees with. He is so unaware of his own ideological character, that he doesn’t realise the similarities between himself and the character of those Germans caught up with the undying belief of the nazi ideology in the 1930’s.
We must now dredge through the employees of every party in order to decide who we will vote for – exhausting, but necessary!!
Well speaking very generally you can get a good idea of the cause by the people those espousing the cause choose as employees. This is not a Public Service employment but a time limited, hopefully, political employment.
"Well, now that the Labour Party is employing Shaneel Lal"
Was there a link to accompany/support your claim, Visubversa?
It's customary/required here on TS. Not sure how your comment slipped through the net.
The only time people are pre-emptively required to provide a link up front is when they quote.
Sometimes we also ask people to provide links as part of backing up arguments. As per the Policy,
In this case, that Lal has been employed by a Labour MP has been discussed enough that you will find this from a simply google or TS search.
The mods take a very dim view of people misrepresenting TS policy and moderation.
If you want to know about something, ask. Please stop hassling people about this.
You are clearly not understanding how this works despite repeated explanations. I'm sick of explaining it over and over. If I see you making asides about the moderation that undermines moderation, I will moderate.
Robert might have been seeking evidence that supports the oft-discussed belief that Lal is, or has been, employed by a Labour Party MP.
According to my sources (Google), there's no question Lal was a member of Ministerial Youth Advisoty Group (Education) – starting at age 17.
I'd like to know whether Lal is, or has been, employed (in the usual sense of the word) by the Labour Party or by a Labour party MP. How hard can it be to provide evidence – surely it would have been leaked by now?
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but the rush to accept Lal's employment by Labour as a (convenient?) truth is to no-one's credit, imho.
https://twitter.com/KatrinaBiggs2/status/1772003178458026063 (9:50 am)
https://twitter.com/kaiviti_cam/status/1772005922786992586 (10:01 am)
Cam Slater – ffs. Btw, this is not intended as harassment – I want the truth.
“You can’t handle the truth!“
Chris Hipkins recently confirmed it in an interview with Sean Plunket. That is now behind a paywall but the following day (I think) Plunket said this,
https://youtu.be/BTCSEKdkf-A?t=111
If someone can't find something and wants evidence, all anyone has to do is ask. Just like you did.
Thanks weka for that link to a video of Ovens' interview with Plunkett.
"Jill Ovens on Shaneel Lal’s position in the Labour Party"
The title of that YouTube video seems to leave no room for doubt that Lal holds a "position" in the Labour party (perhaps, "we understand", as a policy researcher in Salesa's office) – Ovens' says [@ 3:48] "it wouldn't be surprising if she [Lal] worked through that [Salesa's] office".
Which is all well and good, but please forgive me for wanting to hear what Hipkins said, rather than what Plunkett said Hipkins said, and Ovens' reaction to what Plunkett said Hipkins said.
Also, please accept that I'm not saying Hipkins didn't confirm Lal is employed as an executive assistant and policy researcher in the Labour party – it's just that I haven't personally seen/heard Hipkins confirm this, or read a transcript of what Hipkins said, so I don't know.
Lastly, weka, if you can confirm that Hipkins said what Plunkett said he said on Plunkett's platform, then that would be good enough for me.
This is a vid edited from the full Hipkins/Plunket interview
starts at 2m
https://x.com/simonranderson/status/1772200597762265557
you might find the whole piece interesting. Anderson is hard core anti left, but no debate means he is one of the very few producing video content eg LWS Auckland.
Brilliant link weka – Lal "is working for one of our [Labour's] MPs" – ta.
Anderson wants to put women back on the urinary leash, too.
you've no idea how fucking enraging it is that the liberal left have forced the situation to the point were left wing gender critical feminists like myself have to rely on him for evidence.
No Debate handed power to him directly.
One more reason why I really loath the liberal left weka. They are just pathetic, no better than the liberal right. Two sides of a very destructive coin.
thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol.
The left certainly has a lot of good thinkers, however they have to be very careful with what they say and how they say it.
I find that many Right views & opinions sound very similar to generative AI: persuasive, compelling, and convincing (bordering on manipulative if/when wielded in certain situations targeting certain receptive audiences). However, at the same time they tend to circle around in variations of the same (neoliberal/economic) themes underpinning and congruent with their ideological framework, lack creativity and originality, and fall into traps of self-referential and self-fulfilling claims & conclusions similar to the intrinsic bias and hallucinating of gen-AI. They also tend to show considerable weakness in debating of moral and ethical dilemmas with their one-size-fits-all approach to personal and corporate freedoms that is dichotomous and uncompromising by default.
This was not always the approach of the right. Every now and again you catch a glimpse of the 'old right'. Chris Finlayson being one thinker from the Right.
Since the neo-lib times the Right seems to view everything through an economic lens. This to me is why they now lack any declared aspirations for the betterment of NZ & NZers that does not hark back to some sort of $$$ approach. It has been bred out of them. I am not sure the current lot is capable of lifting their eyes higher than some sort of economic shop till.
Finlayson can be arrogantly dismissive. If you're okay with that, he's a great guy to talk with 🙂
This is not what I am meaning at all. How many thinkers are 'difficult' from the point of view of others?
I'd venture to say that every single person who has made a foray into public life with beliefs that are not the bog standard stuff will have upset someone along the way. That someone has then gone on to to say, 'but he is so rude', 'he is so dismissive'.
This is a great quote from GB Shaw from 'Man & Superman'. It uses the meaning of 'reasonable' of compliant, of seeing no need to question..etc
George Bernard Shaw said “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man.”
In my world we'd protect thinkers even with their foibles, by looking at the content & generally not their personal characteristics.
Sure. I've spoken kanohi ki te kanohi with Chris Finlayson – I didn't find him difficult, but recognised his bias and his style.
You write,
"In my world we'd protect thinkers even with their foibles, by looking at the content & generally not their personal characteristics."
Do you clasp then, Shaneel Lal to your bosom?
They're clearly a thinker,
Lal a thinker? You must be joking. His tweets would disabuse anyone of that notion, his inability to recognise the views/rights of others, his unabashed violence of thought/speech.
The claim to a be thinker falls by an examination of the content that I have seen.
I haven't looked, tbh.
Doesn't interest me much. Do you worry they'll become a powerful influence through their new position?
This is deeply worrying. Our own Trump in the making, you think?
I'll be gentle.
Before labelling someone a 'thinker', you really should do your homework.
1. On a discussion on Marae, about of all things freedom of expression, Lal said this “due to the transgender agenda, cisgender women are being kidnapped, blended and put into meat for human consumption”. The BSA clipped Lal's wings. Misleading claim over Posie Parker views breached accuracy standard (bsa.govt.nz)
2. On Twitter, Lal posted this comment “Dear Threaders, Can we agree that we won’t tolerate TERFs on Threads. They've made the lives of trans people living hell on almost all platforms. Let’s not allow their hatred to poison this app too. Requested with love.” Lal doesn't show much love for women who happen to be gender critical. Why are people threatening to boycott Spark NZ? | Stuff
3. In an article in the Herald (Shaneel Lal: Politicians need to lighten up – NZ Herald), Lal again inviked the term 'TERFS', describing them as "self-proclaimed women’s rights activists".
I'll leave it there because I promised to be gentle. But just in case you're willing to look at some of the tweets Shanreagh refers to below, you can see them at MEDIAWATCH: Can Shaneel Lal really claim people are critical because of topless photos? | The Daily Blog.
Charming.
Agree with Incognito, I.
The same can be said about some on the left. Inflexible political ideology is similar to a one eyed Canterbury supporter. It’s the psychology of the individual, it’s kinda okay with your favourite sports team, but it’s not okay with governing the country.
Maybe we (the public or society in general) need more open discussion about how we debate issues, it seems to me that the bullies are in control and have a greater say than those of us who wish to fully understand ideas. Mind you I come from an engineering background, before my current career. I could design a product or a system that worked perfectly on paper, but we built the prototypes, refined the designs, to ensure the the product could actually be manufactured, and would actually do what it was designed to do. One thing that I would come across, were the guys who believed that they were brilliant, but were completely unaware of their lack of technical competence. Rather than admitting that their knowledge was lacking in certain areas, they would deliberately undermine and attack their more competent colleagues. I think this was the first time that I’d heard about narcissistic personality disorders. So I’m wondering if people who hold ideologically rigid beliefs have risen to their level of incompetence and are unwilling to accept that they are wrong, or have something to learn, in order to protect their fragile self belief of themselves. One thing these guys had in common was their victimhood, they always blamed others for their failings, they were also masters at manipulating others to come to their side, even when we had absolute proof that the design could not possibly work. Sorry a bit off topic…
Yeah, the second long paragraph was not a strong analogy, IMO, and going off-topic a wee bit.
I don’t consider Left and Right ideologies as equivalent on a simple linear axis (e.g. one of the two axes of political compasses) or, simplistically, the other side of the coin (which is an example of dichotomous thinking). In addition, there are distinct differences, IMO, in how adherents and advocates (and activists) of various ideologies interpret and apply their respective sets of values, beliefs, and ideas.
I’d say that some ideologies are intrinsically more open, more inclusive, more flexible, and more compromising, for example, than others.
I'm starting to think there is this emerging class of righties whose politics are primarily involved in establishing truth and honesty. They're quite different from the right wing who favour misrepresentation or say Dirty Politics. In addition to Kisin and Foster from Triggernometry, I would say Peter Boghossian is the same (and would be interested to hear what you think of his Street Epistemology work if you look at it).
I don't find them running the kinds of AI-esque arguments that you are meaning, and my admiration is for their technique and not their politics. Outside of TS, I don't see a lot of space for holding to truth and honesty in LW spaces, although that is no doubt also a reflection of the online spaces I am in. But for the most part, the left seem more occupied with ideology than truth.
This is the reason for the overlap between people like Triggernometry and the left/centre left GC people. Both sides know not just that humans can change sex is a lie, but that the lie is a really big, important one in terms of denying material reality.
Not sure Kisin and Foster are establishing truth and honesty by platforming some of the worst people on the planet – anti-Islam activist Carl Benjamin, who happens to hate women and Jews and loves Tommy Robinson, actual fascist Sebastian Gorka, a self-proclaimed member of Hungarian Nazi group the Order of Vitéz and supporter of the banned fascist cosplay paramilitary group Magyar Gárda, professional Islamophobe and promoter of the great replacement racist conspiracy theory Douglas Murray, Jordan Peterson, Nigel Farage, Melanie Phillips, Andy Ngo, Chris Rufo, etc.
establishing might not be the best word, I will think on that.
Just starting to listen to one of the CB interviews now. Here's Risin at the start,
So CB is far right. I don't think that bothers RW men as much as it bothers us on the left. So that interview doesn't mean that the techniques they use aren't about honesty and truth.
If the left's response is to go 'nazi sympathiser', that will convince people on the left, many on the centre left, and even some centrists and centre right. It's not going to make use the majority.
Which is to say, condemn the far right, for very good reasons I assume we both know. But if you also take out the centre right in that critique, how will the left ever win? That's not a rhetorical question, I really want to know what the strategy is. Almost no-one ever says.
That may seem so to you, weka, but they don't and they never have. If you find yourself nodding, check to see if you are still awake.
How many Triggernometry episodes have you watched Robert? Which ones?
How many episodes of Nate Hagens have you watched, weka? Which ones?
in the absence of a straight answer, I'll take that as you having watched none of them. Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers.
The irony is that your response is a classic example of the particular approach of the liberal left to this issue. Why bother making an actual argument when you can just make ideological and unevidenced assertions? The reason that Kisin and Foster are so good at what they do is that they eschew that form of debate and instead favour seeking truth by communicating, ideas exchange, and digging into issues. It's also why they can interview such a wide range of people and still be interesting despite their RW politics. Making an assertion about something is really the lowest form of debate by comparison.
But thanks for providing such a good example of the problem.
Also, as I pointed out in my original comment, those three RW men were easily able to pin point, name and explain the misogyny, whereas the liberal left are no longer able to do that and either actively or passively support the misogyny instead.
" Odd then that you feel qualified to state that they are never good critical thinkers."
I stated that??
Please provide quote and link. You'll have noticed, no doubt, that my comment is in response to yours here:
3.2.1
5 April 2024 at 10:29 pm
which doesn't mention Triggernometry at all, so far as I can see.
Perhaps you've jumped the gun/have a hair-trigger?
Keen to hear your response.
?
Weka: long comment about a Triggernometry episode and their ability as RW men to recognise gross misogyny while the left is ignoring or sanctioning same misogyny.
Adam (in response to that long comment):
Weka (in response to Adam and in reference to the Triggernometry comment):
Robert (in response to weka's response to Adam):
Weka: how many episodes of Triggernometry have you watched Robert?
Robert: doesn't answer and diverts
Weka: that's no episodes then. And,
🤷♀️
"Robert (in response to weka's response to Adam):"
No, weka, my response (check the numbers 3.2.1.3) was to 3.2.1 –
weka3.2.1
5 April 2024 at 10:29 pm
"thing that fucks me off is that the right seem to have the best thinkers atm. I watch/listen and find myself nodding and then they say something that just reminds me how terrible their world view is lol."
You're pinging me for refusing to answer a question from you about something I'd not even come near to mentioning, alluding to, knowing about!
What gives?
Yes, and my response at 3.2.1 was to Adam at 3.2
Adam 3.2
Weka 3.2.1
Robert 3.2.1.3 (.3 because others had already replied to me)
thank you Weka, indeed, as you say Triggernometry and Street Epistemology work with Peter Boghossian are interesting; to see random people either stick to their initial point of view or slowly changing as they get more information… and the questions become more challenging as they go.
I love PB's work. That whole thing about getting people to think about their beliefs in a situation that is non-confrontational, he is really good at it.
(he also made a tit of himself this week by picking a fight with feminists online and then doubling down. Like he took a lid off and all his own beliefs came out. Interesting and weird in a man who is so good at remaining neutral in other situations).
Might see if I can find a good Street Epistemology to put on up TS. Let me know if you have any in mind.
Here are but two suggestion:
Wokeness & Aliens w/ Michael Shellenberger & Michael Shermer | Spectrum Street Epistemology
Bestselling authors and esteemed public intellectuals Michael Shermer and Michael Shellenberger discussed a number of topics ranging from religion to alien life.
Genspect Founder Stella O'Malley & The Gay of the Year, Menno Kuijper | Spectrum Street Epistemology
Stella, a psychotherapist and author, and Menno, a video creator who is gay, both share a similar gender-critical viewpoint. Though, they disagree on some points, notably on whether the term "trans people" should even be used. This leads to a discussion on the importance of language, especially regarding trans issues. Finally, they discuss autogynephilia and consent.
No one should loathe " the liberal left weka."
They're the opposite of loathsome, Adam 🙂
the liberal left is a term I use to name the subset of the left who have abandoned class analysis in favour of identity politics. I prefer it because the term identity politics is weaponised by the left. It also references that the elevating of liberty over community.
Adam probably has a somewhat difference usage, with more emphasis on historical leftist critique of political liberalism and class.
Either way, if you take it to mean left wing people who are socially liberal, you are wrong.
It is the terminology used by the right to attack those liberal on social policy, if they are also left wing (social democratic and or socialist), adopted by others – whom someone called the "haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left, because their cause is more important.
that's confused. The haters and wreckers phrase was Helen Clark's in response to Māori protest over the Foreshore and Seabed Act.
If those of us on the left cannot name dynamics within the left without being called haters and wreckers, who exactly is doing the dividing here?
Within feminism we name liberal feminism to distinguish it from other kinds of feminism. This matters because the mainstream tends to think liberal feminism = feminism.
Likewise, the conflating identitarian politics with leftism in general. Ime the right don't use the term liberal left when criticising identity politics, they just call it the left. Which is in accurate because identity politics doesn't usually concern itself with the labour movement or class analysis.
At the end of the day it's because the liberal left can't handle it being pointed out they are frauds. They have wreaked the socialist program. They have embraced identitarian politics and the destruction that has wrought. They have supported hard right economics for the last 40 odd years – with all the harm that has caused.
And yet any one who calls them on their bullshit is ""haters and wreckers", who divide against others on the left"
Time to get the house in order, and sweep out the bullshitters, fakes and lairs.
But for many that is just too hard. To hard to face up to the fact the people they embraced as an ally – were in fact, not.
SPC you may not like me and that is fine – but I'm at least honest enough with myself to know your not the enemy. But you have bedded down with people who are. And like our Great Grand parents we need to remove ourselves from those who offer up all the right words, and empathetic language, when their actions do not match their words.
One can make the case that the 4th Labour government undertook a neo-liberal market reform. MP's were misled into thinking that not managing an economy for the nation state peoples well-being was bringing a backwater colony into the wider global market world. That this and the anti-nuclear policy and Treaty moves (that National continued with) made for a progressive modernisation of our society.
They should have focused on the gains from the 1983 CER, maintained ownership of assets and state capability and like Oz, operated within the constraint of keeping unemployment low.
Yet the 5th Labour government protected state housing – restored income related rents, provided tertiary debt relief for local workers, supported low income families, increased the MW and invested in retirement saving for those over 65. These all continue.
Yeah they and the 6th one have together left undone, a "FPA", expanding sickness into ACC, a more significant increase in state (income related) housing, and failed to protect people with a rent freeze, or realised the appropriate tax system to reduce inequality etc.
Sure Labour incrementalism, not being NACT – incumbency first is stifling. Labour party members can own that fight.
I've never voted Labour (voting pre MMP was absurd), I've always preferred Greens.
Greens and this TPM will ensure a future Labour led government has some backbone.
If every group, that thinks their one issue is more important than the common cause, did what the 2005 era Maori MP's did – what would be left of Labour?
The National Party does not do that, they seek to be the largest party – the Labour was last that that in 2005.
TPM is back into the centre-left fold from its centrist dalliance with National (2005-2017), but there have long been calls for the “environmentalists” in the Green Party to do as they did.
I doubt that the either the liberal left, or socially liberal right have abandoned class analysis – it still determines how they vote.
The liberal left vote Labour (and Greens) because of their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government.
There is a middle class division between classic liberals – those who prefer social democracy (and side with working class Labour) and those who prefer conformity with the capitalist market order (National and worse).
There are others who want a well regulated economy and well managed governance. Those who either support, or do the work of technocrat moderation of whatever the the left and right parties in governments do.
Those who reject either groups from the "working class team" are in reality advocating for a small more pure party to wait for system failure before being electable. Then comes the change …
How so? Plenty of people vote for as you say their support for a more economically just and environmentally responsible government. That doesn't inherently involve class analysis. Plenty of people still voting for parties that will protect the capital gains in property they own for instance. Or who want a nicer version of neoliberal capitalism.
I don’t really see how that follows on from what I said. Also, I’m fine if Labour splinters into several parties at this point. We’re in an electoral stalemate that will continue to block climate action. We’re approaching the point where anything will be better than that.
But I don’t think what I am saying is equivalent to every group making their own issue more important than the common cause. In fact, the only people doing that are the genderists who use No Debate, that is literally what they are doing. The rest of us are all just bringing out issue to the table to be worked through.
(unless you were referring to adam, who does take a more radical approach).
Thanks weka, that is correct.
I'm sure I'm not the only person who is sick and tired of having to listen to people say they believe in a socialist vision, and yet they keep supporting far right economics. Tear apart social movements and moan nothing can be done, apart from very small incremental change. Then support class war, by doing sweet bugger all to fight against austerity.
They they will cancel anyone who disagree with their take on the dumb as fuck cultural wars, or the purity of their identify politics.
Yes I put class first, simply because the poor in this country have been getting fucked by the liberal left and the liberal right in this country for the last 40 years.
They are not the friend of working people.
Adam loathes the liberal left; "they are pathetic".
*Cheers, Adam.
*wonders why Adam's here
Why, because I'm not a liberal, never have been, and never liked them.
Social democrats on the other hand are good people.
As are free communists and anarchists.
You know the left – before liberals pranced around pretending they gave two shits about the poor, the down trodden and hard working people. Or more over, pretended they were left wing. When they are nothing more the the usual worshipers of cupidity. And shit stirrers who play silly little mind games – and other Bullshit like cultural wars.
Maybe you might want to ask yourself why your here Robert Guyton, and if your one of the liberals or someone who is actually on the left rather than a tool for the Tory wankers?
It's clear you're neither liberal, nor Left, adam, hence my question and in answer to your suggestion that I ask myself why I'm here, though it was somewhat garbled, I have and I liked my answer!
what makes you think Adam is not left? He's been writing on TS for a very long time from a left anarchist and class analysis perspective in a NZ and international context (at least in my view that's where he is). How is that not left?
He is also socially liberal (liberal with a small l, as opposed to being a liberal in the sense of liberalism), eg around issues like gay rights.
Do you understand the differences between Liberalism and leftism? It's a bit confused at times in NZ because historically the middle classes in particular have called themselves liberal, when they mean small l socially liberal, not Liberalists.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism
Good question, weka! Is this also a good question?
Robert Guyton…
6 April 2024 at 2:12 pm
To your question, I wrote liberal with a lower-case "l". I used the upper-case "L" for the Left I believe Adam (lower-case "a"), isn't.
Adam is clearly socially liberal in the sense of supporting gay rights kind of NZ liberal values. What I call small l liberal. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not liberal.
He rejects Liberalism. So do many leftists. Rejection of Liberalism doesn't mean someone is not left. You've given zero reasons for saying he is not left.
Happy to respond, weka. Waiting though, for clarification from you regarding 6 April 2024 at 5:31 pm.
Admirable that you step in to explain/defend Adam's position, weka!
But why?
I'll just note that you have yet again refused to say why you think Adam isn't left or liberal.
"I'll just note that you have yet again refused to say why you think Adam isn't left or liberal."
Why in God's name should I???
Beyond mystifying.
Why wouldn’t you?
Beyond mystifying.
Are you being obtuse on purpose Robert?
Love how you throw dirt, like other liberals here – Gosman and Puckish rouge comes to mind – you never really say what you mean.
A liberal is someone who supports liberalism as representing their political world view. Like many on the left I reject liberalism as a economic/political system and the people who support it.
Wow so supporting, economic freedom, freedom of association, workers rights, the rights of women, gays, indigenous rights, disabled self determination and opposing authoritarianism in all it's forms – is what – right wing now?
"worshipers of cupidity" though, sounds intriguing!
Care to elucidate, Adam?
I thought it was pretty much as clear as you can get.
But if your having problems here is a link to a dictionary definition of cupidity.
"worshipers of cupidity" is "as clear as you can get"?
Not to me, without elucidation from you, Adam – do you mind?
Referring me to a dictionary for just one of those words is… kinda rude, I reckon.
What don't you understand in particular? What from what I said is unclear to you?
The meaning of "worshippers of cupidity" 🙂
And what of those words don't you understand?
Hilarious!
I followed your advice, adam, in order to understand what you wrote,
"worshipers of cupidity" – it sounded to me like an established phrase with a specific meaning.
I found, "Cupidity is a greedy desire for money and possessions."
"Worshippers" of cupidity then, worship the greedy desire. I imagined they might have worshipped money and possessions.
Is that what you meant?
The sages tell us the love of money is the root of all evil.
Kinda resonates with a lot of what we see around us.
Inequality growing, the 'haves' have a lot more the have nots have two, three, four jobs, welfare for some of the others that are working.
Some have a few properties and can sleep well at night while others scurry about paying their mortgage and paying the interest. In fact, these landlords band together and get someone to advocate for them, as if they don't have a big enough advantage.
https://www.nzpif.org.nz/
https://www.landlords.co.nz/
Warning, you may want to shower after looking at those links. The 2nd one has a few photos of some 'stupid cupids'.
Indeed
Wot adam said..in previous two comments..
In first two comments..
Thanks for the link, Weka. I'll try and have a look but I seem to have backlog of clips like this.
I've been trying to get my head around the intersection of trans rights and women's rights for some tine.
I got myself into a potential spot recently when in another online space I asked the writer of an opinion piece whether they felt trans rights can erode women's rights. The person didn't reply. But another commenter said that was the same stance taken in the past in discussions about women's rights and men's rights and asked me to provide examples of trans rights eroding women's rights.
I thought uh oh this isn't going to end well. I'm not reallly equipped for this and while I drafted a reply I haven't answered.
I find the space confusing but essentially I feel women are being asked/forced to give up their rights for trans people. Women need safe spaces and trans people need safe spaces but why is it women have to be the ones to let people into their spaces, some of whom make some of them feel unsafe? (I realise that mostly it's people wanting to identify as female rather than the reverse).
Competitive sports is another example. I'm guilty of over-simplifying things on occasion but I feel women should not have to compete against anyone who has the physiological advantage of starting life as a biological male. To me it's wrong and unfair.
I saw one cycling body overseas has now decided to have a women's elite category and an open elite category where anyone can compete as a way of adressing this particular issue.
it's definitely a good idea to practice care in those conversations, especially if you are using your RL name.
Also good is having the points and evidence ready. It's not going to convince the ideologues, but my experience is that many people will respond to thoughtful commentary backed up with evidence.
For instance, on sport, there are TRA lines about there being no evidence that TW have an advantage over women. This is patently nonsense (most people understand the physical disparities between women and men), but there is also a lot of very good analysis and research to back this up.
I will try and link some of the people to follow. Having a twitter account is very useful, but a FB account might suffice.
Kia ora Weka, is X post-Musk still useful, I thought he'd turned it right and gutted it.
I'd appreciate more links, but as I said on the "Strike" thread my energy is primarily focused elsewhere, where I believe I can actually make a difference in the life of my immediate whanau, my local community and wider afield.
As to practising care that's why I decided to put things in reverse and back away. I'm not going to convince the person who invited me to step into a yawning, black hole and give examples of how trans rights can erode women's rights. I would rather use my energies elsewhere.
The Standard continues to disappoint me personally about actually helping us to stand up and fight back against the awful government we have rather than just complaining about it, but I think I appreciate why you hang in there.
have to admit I find it pretty challenging here at times because of that reason. Debate is an important part of change, but we also need strategy, planning and action.
I'm still trying to work out how I can write here about climate and the things we can do and what if we changed and things worked out, in a way that people will read and engage with.
I’ve watched Triggernometry a bit as well. I wouldn’t call them right wing, not the way I see it anyway. I like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas and viewpoints without having a political spin.
I have no idea if you if you have seen the interview with a woman who is a evolutionary psychologist. It’s really interesting about how human nature evolved and to a certain extent the part of our brains that controls our automatic behaviour is designed to help humans survive in the wilds of Africa. She points out interesting differences between men and women as well as the evolutionary reasons for the behaviour, surprisingly it has nothing to do with politics.
they're definitely right of centre in terms of politics. They're just socially liberal righties.
I also really like how they listen and seek to understand different ideas. The impression I get is that they're secure in their politics and unafraid of ideas they disagree with. So refreshing.
I can't even express how depressing it is to watch right-of-centre interviewers explaining to left-wing men that using 'cunt' as an insulting term for a woman is deeply misogynist and especially so when used against women taking a stand for women's rights.
You illustrate well, one of the problems the left, especially liberal left has.
Instead of being able to post the link with a couple of sentences, there needs to be an explanation to avoid the 'thought terminating cliches' that emit from liberals when an idea that challenges their beliefs is expressed.
Rather put their fingers in their ears and say 'I can't hear you.'
Similar with Joe Rogan. He sits there and asks questions and gets answers. My best understanding is he had some Covidly controversial guests on. That got Neil Young and others upset. That denies a whole body of work that contains very interesting and challenging information from other guests. I understand Rogan now has 4 times the audience of anyone else on You Tube. (no link, sorry, my son showed me an image on his fone last night).
Edison Research shared the top ten podcasts among US women. Unusually for a podcast chart, Joe Rogan is at number two! Podcasts with women hosts take five of the top ten spots.
https://podnews.net/update/joe-rogan-audience-size
Similar to The Canadian Psychologist That Dare Not Speak His Name, I've learnt truckloads from him, but constant misrepresenting of his statements have other's beliefs trump facts.
just to check if we are on the same page, what are your critiques of Rogan and JP? (critique of each).
I have found Joe Rogan fairly politically neutral (especially for an American in that it is a polarising country) or at least that is how he appears. His guests however are from all over the shop.
JP, I feel is an old school conservative, in that he values the family, freedom of speech etc. He is a critic of the extreme left. What I learn from him comes from 30 years lecturing and is fact/evidence based.
The reason why I commented on yr thread is that I see both getting misrepresented in their views.
I think there is a Venn diagram vibe to JP and others. I guess you share one with him calling out trans activism and the Canadian compulsion of speech/preferred pronouns but will be on opposite sides considering his views on, say, gender pay gap.
It's the cancelling I find self defeating and irritating, just because a wee tid bit jars with one's view of the world.
His explanation of the monogamy 'issue' in 2018 is worth the time IMO.
Links are NYT article, a Guardian scribe's upset at said article and JP's "On the New York Times and “Enforced Monogamy" .
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/18/style/jordan-peterson-12-rules-for-life.html
https://www.theguardian.com/fashion/2018/may/23/jordan-peterson-public-intellectual-isnt-clever-violent-men-monogamy
https://www.jordanbpeterson.com/media/on-the-new-york-times-and-enforced-monogamy/
In the Guardian there is a lot of selective quoting and emphasis of attacking the messenger rather than the message.
Edit. I will include this as I have found it profound from all parties. Sorry I haven’t found the original without a third party’s insights but they bear hearing. 15 minutes and following the Cathy Newman interview.
Gotta wonder if 13,000 Children is enough for you all?
You want more?
Here is the story of just one who was murdered by the IDF and the far right Israeli government.
https://chrishedges.substack.com/p/the-death-of-amr?r=rfd6&triedRedirect=true
Every child's death is a tragedy to their family.
We all wish the fighting would stop. Now.
But it won't.
Nothing you, or I or even the NZ government can do, will persuade or influence the Israeli government to stop this war.
Where is the pressure to force Egypt to open the Gaza border for humanitarian reasons?
Amr's family were trying to raise international capital – in order to fund the extortionate prices Egyptian organizations are charging to even be considered for an Egyptian permit.
From your link….
Egypt has adamantly refused to accept Gazan refugees. The "Palestinian cause" is more important than children's lives.
https://theconversation.com/why-egypt-refuses-to-open-its-border-to-palestinians-forcibly-displaced-from-gaza-223735
To my way of thinking, there has been a disappointingly large amount of hand-wringing by 'concerned' people everywhere – it's been going on for months.
Recent examples of refugee groups accepted by NZ include long-term detainees in Australian offshore camps, and some of those affected by conflict in Afghanistan and Russia's 'special operation' in Ukraine. Perhaps our govt should take a more ptoActive stance towards Gaza refugees – there’s still time, imho.
I didn't realise that ~80% of the humans living in the Gaza Strip are refugees.
Wouldn't it be a true Act of (Christian) kindness if our CoC govt made efforts to facilitate the evacuation of a few Gaza refugees to Aotearoa NZ. Any day now.
https://www.refugeecouncil.org.au/support-israel-gaza-conflict/
Interesting both commentators seem to think throwing people off their land is the solution.
White settler mentality/programming?
Not the solution, a solution.
Interesting that you, apparently, would rather people continued to be killed, than offer them the chance to emigrate.
The people involved (cf Amr, which you linked to initially), would seem to disagree.
….
Religious fundamentalist mentality/programming?
NB: Mods. Don't know why this reply (at 5) didn't 'nest' as a response to 4.2.1
Reading/writing on a desktop PC.
No biggie if it was just one of those mysterious internet things (or even, gasp, user error).
But just in case others are experiencing this.
No idea either. The comment_parent = 0, i.e., it was a stand-alone comment and not a reply to another comment. You did edit it but that wasn’t the cause either. So, I put it down to human error 😉
Human error it shall be. Covering my head in ashes! 🙂
The solution is stopping the murder of civilians and ending the conflict. But you say it can't be stopped. And that sending them to other places, off their land is the way to keep them alive. It is, but the cost of that is the permanent loss of their land, and livelihood.
I would have thought as a kiwi, at the very least you might have some idea what it means to be removed from your land. And the difficulty once removed from your land of ever getting it back.
Yes. Better in exile, building a new life, than dead.
Although, not in the mind of religious extremists.
Most Kiwis have come to terms with the fact that they will never regain ancestral land. They build new lives. And create a future for their kids, rather than dwelling in the past. We are a nation of immigrants.
So Māori don't exist? Or the experience of Māori is – what exactly?
What religious extremists? My friends who are Christians in Gaza, are not extremists. They just don't want to lose their homeland, and what it means for them to live in a land which holds meaning to them. Meaning in a spiritual and historical sense. A place which connects them to family and what it means to be a Christian in the holy lands.
Friends in Sydney and Perth, struggle with being so far removed from the place of their birth. The mental health of the children of my friends is not great, and the suicide rates amongst the young male refuges, are bloody depressing.
Alive yes, but in a fulsome sense of being alive. I'm not totally convinced.
So the Irish diaspora doesn't exist. Or the African Americans?
Newsflash. None of those people want to go 'home' – they've built new lives elsewhere – with a better future for their kids. And while the first generation struggles (all immigrants do) – the subsequent generations are part of the new country. They have heritage from their home – but become part of the new place. Their new home. And where this fails, and you have enclaves of immigrants, you end up with serious social problems in the new country.
Given that there are less than 1,000 Christians in Gaza, I find it astonishing that you have many friends among this group.
https://www.newarab.com/analysis/will-gazas-christian-community-survive-israels-war
And, most of them want to immigrate:
“The general thought among all Palestinian Christians now is to immigrate, after their homes and businesses were destroyed, and since there is no political horizon signalling an end to this crisis,”
I'm assuming that you were referring to an 'attitude' of white settler ideology – rather than specifically calling me a white settler.
I reciprocated with the 'religious extremist' attitude. I'm sure you're familiar with it in other contexts: "Better dead than XXX" (fill in type of person as you please)
And, it really doesn't matter what you or I or the president of Egypt thinks is 'better' for the people in Gaza. They want to leave (cf your original link to Amr). Since they have no rosy-tinted glasses view that Israel is going to stop any time soon.
Bottom line. Alive is better than dead.
Totally agree the last of the Palestinian Christians are going to leave. With a even smaller population on the west bank looking to move, we are seeing the end of Palestinian Christians in the Holy Lands in our life time.
The largest population of Palestinian Christians is in Sydney, with next highest grouping being Perth. I'd also like to point out that when I say Christian – I mean those who actively adhere to Christianity, and those who consider themselves cultural Christians. That drags the numbers up a bit.
A link for expanding on that, and it's a bloody good organization that will take donations, that will help people after they have left Gaza.
https://palestinianchristians.org.au/
I think we basically agree, alive is better. My problem is two fold: The end of Cultural traditions extending back millennia, and the fact that their is no political solution. Exacerbated by one side hell bent on total death and destruction of the other.
And no I was not calling you a white settler, but the underlying influence as a set of ideas it has on society in general.
And the same holds true for the religious fundamentalist philosophy. Which is entirely relevant in discussing the Middle East.