How Covid 19 appears to be playing out

108 comments on “How Covid 19 appears to be playing out ”

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1. Dawn Trenberth 1

   4 June 2020 at 11:00 am

   I have already been shopping to get stuff for the garden and have been out to dinner and lunch. Quite frankly if we were like America or the UK I would have been too scared of catching covid. Of course our economy is going to be better.
   • Enough is Enough 1.1

     4 June 2020 at 11:11 am

     I was never scared of catching covid. In fact part of me wanted to so that I would have some form of immunity in the future.

     My fear was passing it on to someone who would suffer or have serious complications.
     • lprent 1.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 11:21 am

       …so that I would have some form of immunity in the future.

       So you're an unthinking idiot. Show me some proof that there is any immunity that lasts more than 6 months – because that is our current level on knowledge about immunity. Show me anything that indicates that people who didn't have a severe response have any immune responses at all.

       These are all things that we'd find out in the future – hopefully by watching someone else with a stupid dithering government (eg Trump or Johnson or Putin) providing the evidence.
       • Enough is Enough 1.1.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 11:23 am

         "some form"…. not total immunity. That comment was deliberate.

         But thanks for your personal abuse. It always a pleasure being bullied online
       • froggleblocks 1.1.1.2

         4 June 2020 at 1:04 pm

         Yeah, lets attack someone who was just trying to find the silver lining in a bad situation – if COVID had roiled far and wide through NZ, then hoping to get infected with a low dose for future potential immunity is not a stupid thing to hope for.
         • I Feel Love 1.1.1.2.1

           4 June 2020 at 1:34 pm

           Like in Sweden? Britain? USA? There is no immunity, no use "hoping" for it, let's wait for science for certainty, not faith.
           • Enough is Enough 1.1.1.2.1.1

             4 June 2020 at 3:40 pm

             A fairly innocuous statement that has caused some concern.

             I think it almost certain that humans have "some form" of immunity. Covid-19 has not been around long enough to know how long that immunity lasts. To date there is not one reported case of anyone being reinfected so that gives us some clue. It is possible that covid-19 will be like the six other human coronaviruses. Four produce the symptoms of the common cold and immunity is short-lived. Generally people can be reinfected with the cold within one year.

             On that basis I am more scared of transmitting the disease to someone vulnerable than I am of getting it myself as I am statistically likely to recover within a week, and likely to have immunity for at least a year.

             I am not sure what Sweden has to do with that?
             • lprent …

               4 June 2020 at 4:02 pm

               There is an inherent presumption in the Swedish model that the immunity will last a while, and that the transmission between people is fast. This meant that they could isolate vulnerable populations like the >60yo (and that didn’t work) while the rest of the population picked up immunities.

               However the time that the immunity lasts is not known (but likely to be short based on most of the human corona viruses).

               The infection rate is slow. They were planning on having something like a 40% infected rate in about 2-3 months. After 3 months it looks like it is more like 10-15% (at the most) in Stockholm and way less everywhere else.
               • NZJester …

                 5 June 2020 at 7:08 am

                 The other thing that makes relying on herd immunity from this extremely bad is that those who caught it and do make it through having the virus might not be out of the wood health wise. There are a lot of long term heath issues it can cause for people. They could survive the virus but die a few years or decades later from health complications it can leave them with. It is known to damage some vital internal organs turning formally healthy people into those who need long term medical care or organ transplants to stay alive.
             • Incognito …

               4 June 2020 at 8:14 pm

               There are some suggestions of the possibility of cross-reactivity with common cold coronaviruses possibly providing pre-existing immunity against SARS-CoV-2 in the population.

               https://www.cell.com/cell/fulltext/S0092-8674(20)30610-3

               You’ll have to be an expert to appreciate the limitations of this linked study hence my italics 😉
         • woodart 1.1.1.2.2

           4 June 2020 at 2:34 pm

           hopeing for immunity to a new virus that is still mutating… yes, that is a stupid thing to hope for.
           • froggleblocks 1.1.1.2.2.1

             4 June 2020 at 4:39 pm

             All viruses mutate.
             • lprent …

               4 June 2020 at 7:24 pm

               IOt is more the rate at which they ‘mutate’.

               But in reality mostly what viruses get is transcription errors. There are surprising differences in the levels that different virus types effectively get suicided by poor transcription. Influenza changes like wildfire.

               What has been interesting about covid-19 and the corona viruses in general is the extent to which they have built in checking. Can’t dig out the reference(s) right now as google appears to be buried under antiviral research for covid-19 for almost every phrase I tried..

               But it makes sense for a virus with 32 thousand base pairs like covid-19 to be a bit more conservative in its ‘mutations’ than one with 1.7 thousand base pairs like influenza. However what you have to worry about is how many more tricks a virus could have stored up with more than 16x as much ‘code’ already in it. It probably already has considerably more pre-programmed strategies.
           • Tricledrown 1.1.1.2.2.2

             5 June 2020 at 12:07 am

             Kim Hill on one of her Saturday shows interviewed a virus expert who said this type of virus has a low mutation rate.
     • mpledger 1.1.2

       4 June 2020 at 6:20 pm

       Sweden has only got about 7.3% of people with antibodies and they really need it to be up around 60-70% to get herd immunity which was what they were aiming for. No other country is known to be above 5%.

       It's still unclear but getting herd immunity doesn't look too likely in the near future for any country and that would be the only point of purposefully catching it – although the risk is low for young people there is still a risk of death. And we don't know the long term effects – some of the healthy people who survive a bad bout seem to come away with organ damage – but we only have collected about 6-8 months of good data so who knows what else will turn up.
       • Tabletennis 1.1.2.1

         6 June 2020 at 8:25 pm

         No Sweden was not aiming for herd immunity – their strategy was:

         1) flattening the curve (like NZ but then (MOH?) changed it half way to eliminating the virus), with the aim not to overburden the hospitals, and

         2) protecting the most vulnerable. As it was already know that the elderly were. Herd immunity was going to be a merely a side effect of this strategy.

         Immunity has shown to last, for now, between 1 and 3 months.
         • Incognito 1.1.2.1.1

           6 June 2020 at 8:29 pm

           Immunity has shown to last, for now, between 1 and 3 months.

           Where did you get that from?
   • lprent 1.2

     4 June 2020 at 11:16 am

     We've done incredibly well. I moved back to work yesterday from working at home since March 17th

     What gets me is that some of the idiots – like Muller – simply don't appear to understand exactly how lucky we are that they are not in control. Even at this point it isn't a slam-dunk because this virus is so unlike any other one that we're made pandemic precautions about.

     As far as I can see (and I've been keeping myself well-informed), it is going to be an endemic disease. Most likely there will be no herd immunity – even after they get vaccines in place.

     This is one of those diseases and disease families that will keep arising in populations and will permanently change our human behaviour – just like the dangers of cholera caused the development of clean water and sewerage systems. It will change business patterns as well.

     Meanwhile idiots wanting to run back to the past (like the whole of the National party as far as I can tell) are endangering the rest of us. Too stupid to understand the danger of experimenting with our whole population at stake.

     Personally, I'd prefer to be sure that we have longer rather than shorter to test different gathering sizes. For instance if we start showing community spread after the bars reopened and now the protests earlier in the week.

     Besides after we get to level one, we just all know that the unthinking whiners will continue to unreasonably try to endanger us all by wanting to open up the borders too early. I think that we should just teach these children to learn to be patient.
2. Enough is Enough 2

   4 June 2020 at 11:08 am

   Provided National does not win and reopen the "borders" prematurely, I think there is next to no chance we will, or can, return to the restrictions that the government called "level 4".

   We are now ready and prepared for for new infections in a way we weren't in early March. If one new case is identified, the MoH will contact trace the shit out of it and isolate anyone who has been within sneezing distance of that person. We can test at a scale that can identify the spread and quarantine people at a local level rather than the whole country.

   I think the biggest issue now is that big what if? We need to be planning for the possibility that no vaccine is developed in the medium term . What is our future if this coronavirus is like AIDs or any other coronavirus'?
   • James Thrace 2.1

     4 June 2020 at 11:23 am

     I agree

     I keep shaking my head at the "when a vaccine is developed" crowd.

     NO.

     New Zealand needs to make preparation on the basis there will not be a vaccine and learn how to manage that efficiently. If there is a vaccine, that will be a bonus. It should certainly not be the sole point around which all planning is done.

     We also know that Covid19 disproportionately affects the 60+ and underlying chronic health conditions. If NZ wants to keep paying billions in National Superannuation then we need a conversation about how we manage the risk to 60+ people if there is no vaccine.

     Of course it does seem one cannot raise the salient point about the impacts on the 60+ group and how we mitigate that if we open our borders and run the risk of Covid coming back into NZ without being accused of advocating genocide. It's the new "cheap working holiday visa migrants artificially suppress the median wage" argument. Everyone knows it's true, but nobody wants a conversation about it.
     • JanM 2.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 12:21 pm

       'If NZ wants to keep paying billions in National Superannuation then we need a conversation about how we manage the risk to 60+ people if there is no vaccine.'

       What exactly are you trying to say here? It may be the way you've expressed yourself, but surely you're not advocating covid 19 as a useful way of reducing the cost of National Superannuation, are you?
       • James Thrace 2.1.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 12:25 pm

         Case in point.
         • JanM 2.1.1.1.1

           4 June 2020 at 1:16 pm

           Do I take that as a 'yes' then? Goodness!
           • James Thrace 2.1.1.1.1.1

             4 June 2020 at 1:32 pm

             Perhaps you should read the last paragraph in my first reply.

             Thanks for proving my point. Please come again.
             • JanM …

               4 June 2020 at 3:09 pm

               Mmm – persistent obtuseness and continuing ad hominem responses lead me to think it hardly matters anyway
               • James Thrace …

                 4 June 2020 at 4:01 pm

                 You do know that ad hominem responses are about attacking a person? I'm simply stating that you are proving my point that one cannot discuss the risk of covid19 coming into the country and how to mitigate that for the most affected 60+ crowd without being accused of advocating for genocide.

                 That's the first thing you accused me of when I made no such statement.

                 So again, you proved my point.
                 • JanM …

                   4 June 2020 at 4:17 pm

                   'You do know that ad hominem responses are about attacking a person?' I do, of course, and that is how I read it – an implication that I am too thick to understand you.

                   I made no accusation, I asked a question because I didn't think that 'advocating for genocide' was what you had in mind, but I sought clarification because of the way you had expressed yourself.

                   The answer, however, didn't answer my question, did it!

                   And I do think the conversation is worth having, by the way – you just need to choose your words carefully and state your ideas clearly. Introducing irrelevancies like the cost of National Superannuation deflects from the argument and confuses the reader.
             • Gabby …

               4 June 2020 at 7:08 pm

               Dashed unfair that a chap can't advocate genocide without being accused of advocating genocide what what?
               • greywarshark …

                 5 June 2020 at 11:26 am

                 It's interesting that many commenters here can't discuss some matters dispassionately without imprinting their own ideas on someone else's comment and then claiming that was the intended thought. James didn't say anything about genocide.

                 James was pondering on National Superannuation and 60+ people which was immediately pounced on by the worthy opinionated.

                 James made a mistake by pre-empting the type of replies and then making a triumphant comment when they played out as expected. You have to wait James for it to happen, and then say sadly that it is unfortunate that such matters are shut down from discussion as they are of importance for informed people to consider, as without thought and discussion there may be no reasonable and acceptable path for older citizens followed in policy.
                 • Sacha …

                   5 June 2020 at 11:35 am

                   What relevance did you make of "If NZ wants to keep paying billions in National Superannuation.."?
                 • Gabby …

                   5 June 2020 at 12:04 pm

                   So rude of people to take sly insinuations at face value, isn't it.
     • mac1 2.1.2

       4 June 2020 at 7:24 pm

       "I keep shaking my head at the "when a vaccine is developed" crowd."

       And if one was developed another crowd would refuse to be vaccinated.

       Another good Ice Age will sort us out……. let the glaciers loose, roll out the ice sheets, freeze the oceans.
       • Sacha 2.1.2.1

         5 June 2020 at 9:46 am

         Still got some plagues and locusts to go through before we get to that.
         • mac1 2.1.2.1.1

           5 June 2020 at 10:57 am

           I'll go daub my door post. Well known remedy- never fails. Thank God for living in Hizzone. Plenty of lambs.
   • infused 2.2

     4 June 2020 at 4:47 pm

     Even if National won, I don't think anyone is going to lift the border restrictions for the next 2 years.

     It's going to be a very slow process, likely city by city.
   • francesca 2.3

     4 June 2020 at 6:29 pm

     Treatment will be the thing

     And quite possibly our bodies will recognise this new virus as we become exposed and not go into immune system overdrive

     We've got a lot to learn

     This is incredible…how respected medical journals and researchers were taken in by a scamming little US firm

     https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/03/covid-19-surgisphere-who-world-health-organization-hydroxychloroquine
   • Tricledrown 2.4

     5 June 2020 at 12:10 am

     If so it may not be a vaccine but a drug which can lower the damage the virus inflicts.
     Aids doesn’t have a vaccine yet now it is treated
3. James Thrace 3

   4 June 2020 at 11:14 am

   I am horrified at the constant drum beating of travel being opened with Australia first. Australia has never had NZ's best interests at heart. The talk of testing travellers in Australia before they fly to NZ is ridiculous given that people could be carrying Covid, and not have symptoms, and become symptomatic in NZ – where there won't be testing!

   It's ridiculous.

   Given how incredibly efficient at being inefficient a lot of NZ government agencies are (and I put Customs right up there – i.e. when 4 midnight flights arrive at the same time in Wellington and there're only 2 customs staff on – incredibly inefficient) it's dangerous in the extreme to put NZ's near total elimination of Covid at risk.

   Instead, NZ would ideally shore up it's inefficient travel processes by implementing a proper safeguarding measure and trialling it out with countries where there is a smaller risk of Covid making it back through our borders.

   I keep advocating on Twitter for NZ to have a travel bubble with Rarotonga first, and sort out our own internal inefficiencies before we open up with Australia. At least with Rarotonga, we know there's a much smaller risk of importing Covid, and we can streamline the process a lot better. Once we have security in our processes and we can adequately manage travellers coming back from Rarotonga with sound procedures, then we can look further afield to Australia. Obviously we wouldn't have a bubble with Rarotonga until NZ has 28 days of 0 new infections. We certainly do not want to risk their health. Once we have the process sorted with Rarotonga, then we can expand it to Samoa and Tonga and Tahiti etc. Perhaps even Taiwan.

   Opening up a bubble with Australia first is just asking for trouble especially now that Australia is seeing a increase in new infections again. That's far too risky for NZ to manage efficiently or adequately. I highly doubt that the NZ public will appreciate being put at risk.

   The alternative is that we just wait for Australia to have 28 days of 0 new infections and do a bubble then.

   Another alternative is that we simply block off Queenstown and make that "Qurantown" (yes, I'm aware there's logistical issues to work through) if the sole single purpose of getting Australians into NZ is to "save the ski season!"
   • weka 3.1

     4 June 2020 at 11:27 am

     If Queenstown had any sense it would start transitioning to a post-carbon economy, which by necessity means not more mass tourism. Imagine if we took the risk with covid, and put lots of resources into kickstarting the old tourism and then in the winter of 2022, when Queenstown is just starting to recover, they have a bad snow year. And then another one in 2023. We know this is going to happen eventually, may we well bite the bullet now.

     Queenstown is still run by the old boys though, can't see much changing in their thinking until they've been slapped down a number of times.
     • James Thrace 3.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 11:35 am

       Indeed.

       NZ has been given a massive opportunity to re-tool because of Covid and put renewed focus into the things that matter. E.g. I think one way to improve our exporting situation is to invest in places like Coastwood Furniture who make damned good wooden furniture, and export that overseas. Well made wooden furniture that can support the weight of a 100kg male, unlike the cheap and nasty overseas made wooden furniture, will stand the test of time.

       Coming from a Covid free country also means that NZ manufacturers can add a substantial premium onto it.

       But like you say, Weka, the old boys network is firmly embedded to the "old way" and can't see the wood for the trees. There's massive opportunity for Queenstown to centre itself in another format that isn't tourism. Whether that be as a premium location for film crews (i.e. Top of the Lake made full use of Queenstown's location) could be ideal rather than as a mass tourism destination whose sole focus is to extract money, rather than add value.
       • greywarshark 3.1.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 2:39 pm

         Good comments James T with bite in them, one might lose a bit of flesh but worth having.
       • Sacha 3.1.1.2

         5 June 2020 at 9:51 am

         Coming from a Covid free country also means that NZ manufacturers can add a substantial premium onto it.

         I can picture this applying to services involving contact with people or for food products maybe. Furniture, not so much.
         • greywarshark 3.1.1.2.1

           5 June 2020 at 11:15 am

           Furniture maybe. We have built ourselves as a destination on high sounding quality, maybe we can use that quality feeling to sell other stuff, it gives us a profile anyway. And we have been told that the virus stays alive on surfaces so the handlers could be more confident of our product being safe.

           Feelings and fears come into the matter when people are uncertain.
       • lprent 3.1.1.3

         5 June 2020 at 11:35 am

         Coming from a Covid free country also means that NZ manufacturers can add a substantial premium onto it.

         That seems unlikely.

         Covid-19 doesn't last on surfaces for any length of time, usually in hours, and under some quite specific circumstances (plastic or metal surfaces) possibly for days. It doesn't survive for very long

         It survives in bodies and in water based fluids of the right pH. Virus sheaths are usually quite fragile if they are respiratory or blood diseases.

         I can't see any particular advantages for exports carried in boats or even planes.

         I can see it being an issue if we export people – but only a downside.
         • greywarshark 3.1.1.3.1

           5 June 2020 at 1:08 pm

           Thanks for updating my outdated memory of virus info. All the same I think that our good coronavirus status would be good publicity. As I said about feelings and fears – people are uncertain and our record is something that would gain positive attention.

           Did you read the Guardian link that Francesca put up at 2.3? There are a lot of uncertainties floating about.

           Interesting that the Lancet and another publication have been publishing articles that used so called statistics from on-line without checking the provenance of the firm and its staff. The scientific journals have put up a note of caution about the items after The Guardian showed them results from research revealing not hard to get history of fraud and fantasy!
           • lprent 3.1.1.3.1.1

             7 June 2020 at 5:24 pm

             Yep, there is a deluge of information coming through on covid-19. Best overview summary I have seen recently was in the economist

             https://www.economist.com/briefing/2020/06/06/how-sars-cov-2-causes-disease-and-death-in-covid-19

             A lot of scam as well. We simply don't have a lot of base line data.
     • Graeme 3.1.2

       4 June 2020 at 1:09 pm

       Funny thing about Queenstown is that today it feels exactly the same as it did in February. Traffic is just as manic with traffic jams in Frankton morning and evening.

       But there’s no tourists.
       • weka 3.1.2.1

         4 June 2020 at 1:41 pm

         why is that? Short week? People letting out their stir crazy?
         • Graeme 3.1.2.1.1

           4 June 2020 at 4:04 pm

           The economy is back to full steam, traffic volumes are normal and most people are going about their business.

           It shows what the real drivers of the Queenstown economy are, and international / mass tourism is down the list a bit. Our figures in the gallery for Queen’s Birthday were indistinguishable from other years, and I’d say there were more people around this year.
           • weka 3.1.2.1.1.1

             4 June 2020 at 4:41 pm

             that's good news. Were they Otago/Southland folk, or from further afield?

             Is there going to be a normalish ski season (assuming there is snow)?
             • Graeme …

               4 June 2020 at 6:29 pm

               From all over the country, and with a good attitude. Only struck one walking meltdown, thought there would be more of that. Weather helped, it was stunning.

               Ski season is all go, Coronet and Cardrona intend a full season, Remarks may be weekend only, and Treble maybe as well, but if there’s enough punters they’ll both be open. Snow is coming along ok, early days yet.
           • aj 3.1.2.1.1.2

             4 June 2020 at 8:15 pm

             It shows what the real drivers of the Queenstown economy are…

             What are they?
             • Sacha …

               5 June 2020 at 9:53 am

               Flipping houses. 🙂
               • aj …

                 5 June 2020 at 7:22 pm

                 lol! until Covid arrived, true. After that, not so much. Third place not much, I think.
               • Graeme …

                 7 June 2020 at 5:35 pm

                 Yep, and building houses to house people to build more houses.

                 All good until the music stops, which it may, or may not have. We’ll see there, but the vultures have been sorely disappointed so far.
   • Tricledrown 3.2

     5 June 2020 at 7:47 am

     Australia has a much higher community transmission of Covid.
4. weka 4

   4 June 2020 at 11:30 am

   I think NZ has a reprieve. Which is a window of opportunity to start working seriously on resiliency. People who think this can be put aside until the economy is rebuilt are playing a very dangerous game.

   The thing that interests me right now is what will happen to NZ if the US and UK economies collapse? Or if the US goes full fascist? We might think we are safe in our little corner of the world, and I can't think of many better places to be living right now, but we are still tied into the global economic system and the global ecological systems, and that is where our vulnerability is.

   Beyond that, NZ should be leading on resiliency transition and offering working models to the world. We got this reprieve, but it's not just about us.
5. peterh 5

   4 June 2020 at 11:31 am

   In Victoria May, meatworks 111 cases, mcdonalds, closed 2 shops 400 staff are isolated had several cases. recent 2 schools closed I kindergarten 1 aged care Victoria health say we are finding more because we are testing more (community transmission] there is no way are they ready for a bubble, Cris Hipkins in parliament, brought up Aussie still having outbreaks WHY is this not being reported
   • AB 5.1

     4 June 2020 at 12:04 pm

     Australia's 'long tail' of new daily cases is a noticeable contrast to ours. Australia's numbers seemed strange months ago – total cases and total deaths about the same as ours per capita, but hospitalisation rates were 5 times as high. That pointed at some under-counting of total cases and greater risk of a second wave once restrictions ease.

     It's one thing for NZ to have a leaky border when we are at Level 4. At L4, imported cases can be contract-traced and then transmission lines cut off. It's a totally different thing when we are at Level 1 and behaving more or less normally – just one imported case could snowball fast. Before going to Level 1 we need to have more confidence that the borders won't leak – and a bubble with Australia is still a significant risk.
   • lprent 5.2

     4 June 2020 at 12:36 pm

     Aussie still having outbreaks WHY is this not being reported

     It is being reported. At least I’m reading it. But I read ABC daily. I think that I’ve seen everything you mention over the last 4 weeks. Dig back into https://www.abc.net.au/news/story-streams/coronavirus/

     The most recent were some returning aussies in quarantine. And another case from the meatworks.

     I’m pretty sure that I have seen that in NZ news as well.
6. patricia 6

   4 June 2020 at 11:35 am

   National are desperate to make an impression of some kind, as taking out Simon took months of strategic planning. Many who wanted the change are going "Now what?"

   There have been nasty messages on twitter which show the Dirty Tricks Brigade is at work again. I will not repeat their lies.

   Be aware this election will be full of innuendo but Todd Muller will appear to not be involved, however Hooten and co are in the background doing their thing.

   I don't think NZ is as gullible as they were at the beginning of John Key's time.

   The same voices have started up ahead of the election. Bryce Edwards with his "Jacinda the Saint is mean" message, Goldsmith with his Jacinda Ardern is keeping us locked down when we should be at Level 1 message, and there are only 3 competent ministers in this Government pushed by bloggers.

   We are so fortunate here, but there is a huge effort by National to blame business losses on Labour for doing the Lock Down.

   Altogether we need to give money to our chosen parties and help with hoardings and phoning and leaflet drops. We need to counter the lies and speak up.

   Todd is just repeating the same questions and statements over and over embedding them. We need to persistently answer briefly to the point in the same way.
   We need to stop them pushing the envelope to get a second wave, because then they can say Jacinda got her “Captain’s Call” wrong.

   They show care for money over people in this, and Winstone is attention seeking for votes as well. Dangerous behaviour.
7. Bearded Git 7

   4 June 2020 at 11:36 am

   Sweden has just overtaken France in deaths/million and Sweden's chief epidemiologist has admitted that they screwed up.

   https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/?fbclid=IwAR3gp6yv7rvSWynvpdFjNL5Qb6j-hlSQcitFh7Chy5M02JuD6TiJpMq6Oq4

   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52903717?fbclid=IwAR0Z7KgY-jqRx20e7vk0_O7e94mv8u-lQVZx2CB3yOyOmOI66fIvBsazkhc

   How are the mighty fallen.
   • Andre 7.1

     4 June 2020 at 11:41 am

     UK has just overtaken Spain in the deaths per million race at 585 behind Belgium at 822. But it's hardly fair, Belgium classifies every death that might be vaguely COVID related as a COVID death compared to the known undercount in most other places.
     • Bearded Git 7.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 12:54 pm

       Yes, and when Spain had 27,000 Covid19 deaths El Pais estimated the true level was 43,000 when comparing with normal average death rates.

       But then I remember The Times recently reported a similar study that showed UK death rates were being similarly understated.
       • Incognito 7.1.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 8:31 pm

         Better to compare excess mortality rate by country. Belgium was bad but not the worst in Europe; Spain and the UK (England) looked worse AFAIK.
   • lprent 7.2

     4 June 2020 at 12:27 pm

     …Sweden’s chief epidemiologist has admitted that they screwed up.

     Only partially admitted. Basically he was treating a novel disease like it was a known quantity like the influenza with a more pronounced impact on hospital resources. The problem was that it wasn’t.

     Very few people get a dose of the flu, and then wander around not knowing that they have it and are spreading it for days before symptoms appear. A high proportion doesn’t even get significiant symptoms. Also many of the effects of the disease weren’t and probably still aren’t known.
     • Andre 7.2.1

       4 June 2020 at 12:32 pm

       lprent, you seen the stuff that's just started coming out suggesting that blood vessel damage may be a significant part of COVID?

       https://vascularnews.com/new-study-shows-covid-19-causes-blood-vessel-damage/
       • greywarshark 7.2.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 2:42 pm

         And this came over Radionz recently about Covid-19 and stress having similar effects to that after earthquakes.

         https://www.nzdoctor.co.nz/article/undoctored/quake-brain-study-could-give-insight-future-effects-covid-crisis
     • Bearded Git 7.2.2

       5 June 2020 at 6:43 am

       It’s hard to get these people to fully admit mistakes…but the numbers in Sweden are damning.

       I heard a report on a survey the other day, I think on RNZ and I think from China, that said that symptomless Covid19 people do not spread the virus.

       Partly this is because they are not coughing and sneezing, but it was more than this as though they were less infectious.
   • observer 7.3

     4 June 2020 at 2:53 pm

     I'm not aware of any apologies from those in NZ who weeks ago insisted Sweden had got it right and we had got it wrong. Anyone else?

     For example,

     Mike Hosking and Simon Thornley.
     • In Vino 7.3.1

       4 June 2020 at 3:12 pm

       Well, in today's Herald Hosking is screaming that Australia got it right, not us. Cue a probable increase in Australian infection rates… The guy may well be a jinx.
       • greywarshark 7.3.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 4:38 pm

         Surely even Hosking's huge mouth and powerful delivery couldn't send a projectile of Covid-19 viruses across the Tasman? Turn him to a westerly direction now please (or north-west possibly – GPS might help).
     • Treetop 7.3.2

       4 June 2020 at 10:08 pm

       AJ TV put it this way today about Sweden, 4,500 deaths from Covid-19. 4,000 of them in over age 70 and 50% of the deaths in elderly care homes.

       There is everything wrong about how Sweden managed the pandemic. NZ has got it right so far and the government will be blamed if a second wave.

       Caution is required in opening up the border and quarantine for 14 days. One case is coming through per week with the current people returning to NZ.
       • Treetop 7.3.2.1

         4 June 2020 at 10:14 pm

         AJ TV put it this way today about Sweden, 4,500 deaths from Covid-19. 4,000 of them in over age 70 and 50% of the deaths in elderly care homes.

         There is everything wrong about how Sweden managed the pandemic. NZ has got it right so far and the government will be blamed if a second wave.

         Caution is required in opening up the border and quarantine for 14 days. One case is coming through per week with the current people returning to NZ.
       • Treetop 7.3.2.2

         4 June 2020 at 10:17 pm

         The first paragraph is in relation to Sweden.
       • Treetop 7.3.2.3

         4 June 2020 at 10:20 pm

         The first paragraph relates to Sweden.
         • Treetop 7.3.2.3.1

           5 June 2020 at 7:39 am

           Sorry about duplication. My URL on cell is not working and a lag. First comment would not correct and correction would not correct.
8. Tony Veitch (not etc.) 8

   4 June 2020 at 1:01 pm

   Chris Martenson of Peak Prosperity is reporting evidence coming out of Lombardy of Covid-19 not being as easily transmissible as time goes on, pointing to the unstable nature of the virus (and incidentally pointing a finger at it being a man-made virus) because of some implants in the original genome.

   https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCD2-QVBQi48RRQTD4Jhxu8w

   We may, if what they are saying, is correct, not need a vaccine!
   • greywarshark 8.1

     4 June 2020 at 4:35 pm

     Dear me, more on the theoretical Chinese connection to the genesis of our favourite virus of the year/decade?

     Exclusive: Coronavirus began 'as an accident' in Chinese lab, says former MI6 boss | Sir Richard Dearlove tells Telegraph's Planet Normal podcast that new scientific report suggests key elements of the virus were 'inserted'

     https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/exclusive-coronavirus-began-accident-disease-escaped-chinese/?li_source=LI&li_medium=liftigniter-rhr
     • greywarshark 8.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 4:49 pm

       Edit
       I wonder if Dearlove's mouth is one of UKs weapons. He was head of MI6 1999-2004. The UK was in on the infamous Iraq attack in 2003.*

       But Sir Richard, 75, pointed to a scientific paper published this week by a Norwegian-British research team who claim to have discovered clues within Covid-19's genetic sequence suggesting key elements were "inserted" and may not have evolved naturally…

       Sir Richard, who was the head of MI6 between 1999 and 2004, cited startling new peer-reviewed research produced by Professor Angus Dalgleish, of St George's Hospital at the University of London, and the Norwegian virologist Birger Sorensen. Further links inside the item. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/03/exclusive-coronavirus-began-accident-disease-escaped-chinese/
       .

       * Part of: Iraq War Start date: 20 March 2003 Combatants: United States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq

       The invasion phase began on 19 March 2003 (air) and 20 March 2003 (ground) and lasted just over one month, including 26 days of major combat operations, in which a combined force of troops from the United States, the United Kingdom, Australia and Poland invaded Iraq.

       And we did something intelligent here –
       The New Zealand government opposed and officially condemned the 2003 Invasion of Iraq.

       Military history of New Zealand – Wikipedia
       • Treetop 8.1.1.1

         4 June 2020 at 9:53 pm

         I read a similar article on the Daily Mail UK.
     • Incognito 8.1.2

       4 June 2020 at 9:08 pm

       AFAIK, no such paper has been published yet. Premature elucidation.
       • greywarshark 8.1.2.1

         7 June 2020 at 5:50 pm

         Incognito

         What will you say next? I shall watch with pregnant anticipation.
         • Incognito 8.1.2.1.1

           7 June 2020 at 6:00 pm

           Until we have evidence that can be verified, we’ll have a case of immaculate inconception AKA ejaculo in nihilo.

           Lancet and NEJM have recently retracted highly influential papers on Trump’s miracle drug.
     • Gareth 8.1.3

       5 June 2020 at 5:03 pm

       He needs to show the evidence.. like this:
       https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

       In the conclusion of that Nature paper: "the evidence shows that SARS-CoV-2 is not a purposefully manipulated virus "
9. greywarshark 9

   4 June 2020 at 2:27 pm

   Yanis Varoufakis has been looking into a Crystal Ball. What will happen after Covid-19. He speaks to the Cambridge Union on what is, will happen in in this decade 2020-30.

   https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2020/05/24/a-chronicle-of-our-bleak-twenties-cambridge-union-online/
   • Tiger Mountain 9.1

     4 June 2020 at 4:04 pm

     Yanis job, like other public intellectuals, is sharing his thoughts and predictions with people. Personally I have to try hard to listen to him after he dropped his bundle facing down the EU after achieving political office in Greece.

     That is the thing with some academics, professionals and intellectuals–when the heat goes on they vacillate. Brilliant ideas are certainly needed, but so is some action, particularly in NZ as we wind down the Alert Levels.

     Agree with Micky that we are stuck with C19 and maybe its bastard offspring for some time, and Weka’s call for resilience in light of our country’s reprieve. Now is the time to build health system capacity and staffing, starting with disbanding DHBs and centralising. The scrap between DHBs on different Covid tracking systems is as good an example as any on why this should happen.

     Labour and Green need to get reelected by whatever means necessary, and then set to it–cleaning out the public sector of recalcitrant neo liberal executives, and removing structural elements such as the State Sector Act. Re-nationalise the refinery consortium at Marsden Pt and return power generation and supply to full public ownership…that should get things rolling.
     • greywarshark 9.1.1

       4 June 2020 at 4:33 pm

       TM
10. Ed1 10

    4 June 2020 at 6:12 pm

    I like the graph, and have probably seen where it came from before, but could the url (and any options selected to give that image) be put here again?
11. mpledger 11

    4 June 2020 at 6:29 pm

    Here is a graph. Hopefully it works.

    https://scontent.fwlg2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/77418963_1025234767870477_3715474941030694912_n.jpg?_nc_cat=100&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=7797vf8S_qoAX–JH-E&_nc_ht=scontent.fwlg2-1.fna&oh=4b16c5fa4d6760788abb24302e637f69&oe=5EFDC004

    [lprent: let me help. ]
    
    • mpledger 11.1

      4 June 2020 at 6:58 pm

      I like this graph because it's per capita.
      • greywarshark 11.1.1

        5 June 2020 at 11:11 am

        Very easy to understand – very clear and evidence based! Thanks to both of you. It's helpful with all this talk about bubbling with Australia. Is Australia as good as its painted? When paint bubbles then it has been wrongly applied!
        • Alice Tectonite 11.1.1.1

          5 June 2020 at 1:16 pm

          Plenty of variation within Australia:

          COVID-19: AUS states/territories + NZ

          Cases per million

          • VIC … 253.1
          • NT … 118.1
          • ACT … 249.9
          • QLD … 207.2
          • TAS … 425.8
          • WA … 225.0
          • NSW … 382.6
          • SA … 250.5
          • NZ … 233.9
          • AUS … 284.3

          Deaths per million

          • VIC … 2.9
          • NT … 0.0
          • ACT … 7.0
          • QLD … 1.2
          • TAS … 24.3
          • WA … 3.4
          • NSW … 5.9
          • SA … 2.3
          • NZ … 4.5
          • AUS … 4.0

          Population estimate Sep 2019

          • VIC … 6,629,900
          • NT … 245,600
          • ACT … 428,100
          • QLD … 5,115,500
          • TAS … 535,500
          • WA … 2,630,600
          • NSW … 8,118,000
          • SA … 1,756,500
          • NZ … 4,934,800
          • AUS … 25,464,100

          Data sources
          COVID-19 totals to 4/6/20 – AUS DoH, NZ MoH; Population – AUS Bureau of Statistics, Stats NZ.
      • Alice Tectonite 11.1.2

        5 June 2020 at 1:18 pm

        Thanks for posting that, always like a nice set of faceted plots. Good for an eyeball comparison.
        • greywarshark 11.1.2.1

          5 June 2020 at 1:59 pm

          Tasmania high. I think I read that they were going to 'man it out' down there. Looks as if they did try that, didn't work for Sweden.

          If we had agreement with one or a few states for a bubble, what is to stop people from other states going to the 'bubble' state airport for their flights? Anybody who thought they were well and were sick of being constrained under lockdown could be tempted to do so.

          As for having checks at airports to protect us forget it.
          Aussie workers bailed up our PM when Ansett collapsed and showed no respect for us.
          • greywarshark 11.1.2.1.1

            5 June 2020 at 2:07 pm

            Here is a bit of background on NZ-OZ history that not everyone would remember or have known.

            Many Australians seemed to have absorbed a lot of anti-kiwi propaganda over the years. They still probably remember the Ansett debacle which wiped out the cosy pension schemes they had established with that airline, for which loss we were blamed fiercely too, for those who don't remember.

            When sheep were king, NZ shearers used to go over there for the season and compete with Aussies for the jobs. We developed wide tooth shearing tools while the Oz shearers stayed with the traditional narrow ones. Ours meant that each sweep of the shears took off more wool, and so were faster. That produced animosity against NZ in the outback.

            Further back Aussies did have a valid complaint with the Mr Asia drug criminals involving NZrs 1978-79. http://www.sydneycrimemuseum.com/crime-stories/mr-asia/

            Here is a link about it written by Pat Booth, RIP, one of our top journalists who had a contract put on him because of his sleuthing. http://www.stuff.co.nz/auckland/local-news/manukau-courier/opinion/2163928/Mr-Asia-the-real-inside-story

            So we aren't squeaky clean. And Australian politicians have memorised bad behaviour, and forgotten the hundreds of thousands of good Kiwis. And so they run a tough line on us. I'm for visas between us and them. It would make sense because one of the reasons they gave for withdrawing government benefits for NZs with opportunities to become Australian citizens in about 2001 was that too many foreigners who got into NZ could just pass through to Oz on our no-visa scheme.

            So bring in visas again and then press them for a return to our previous status. Perhaps the NZ Government has been more at fault than Oz. We could cure some of that negativity with visas, remembering that stats have shown most Aussie tourists are short-term visitors, and the tourists are often just visiting and staying with family.
          • Alice Tectonite 11.1.2.1.2

            6 June 2020 at 1:09 pm

            … going to 'man it out' down there

            Don't think so, they had one really bad cluster in the northwest centred around a hospital. 200+ cases of the 228 total, 12 of the 13 deaths. Various allegations about poor PPE supply etc. At least one of the deaths in that cluster was a passenger on the Ruby COVID Princess. Tassie also has the oldest population of any of the states/territories, which may be a factor. No new cases since 15 June.
12. TJ 12

    5 June 2020 at 8:39 am

    As per the graph above… it's remarkable, yes? A little too remarkable. Any other subject and that great big dive would have people looking for the corrupted data. To say that "Ardern's responsive etc etc saved us, hooray hooray compassionate etc etc" is just plain dangerous.

    We got off lightly owing to some weakness of the virus, and the way we socialise. It wasn't just the way we responded – despite the way we responded in some cases. No one is forced to ride the subway with a million other people everyday, or buses, or is shoulder to shoulder every morning in the street. The elderly and sick are corralled away in a corner for family visits. The well-off don't mix with the poor, and vice versa, not freely. Race divides our activities. Rural vs Urban divides us – so we had unofficial road blocks leading into small towns.

    The "luxury" of having these divisions made it "easy" to respond the way we did. The instances of stupidity, in any other part of the World, would have levelled the local population. Ardern's unscientific and politically expedient approach in Level 3/4 transitions, bowing to anyone's opinion, qualified or not if they were loud enough, but now doggedly digging in her heels in level 2, for those last few days and hours because it's suddenly so important, when the threat is very low, that has to be acknowledged. One extra week of level four would've changed nothing to the future of commerce, and at the time, might have saved many lives. But let's forget that. That didn't happen because, I dunno, make up your own delusion.

    Our politics demands we claim it was all our doing, because we're in control of our lives, and since we believe that, right wing politics has us by the psychological balls again. If we aren't in control of everything, and it turns out our strain wasn't suited to our geographical location or climate, or some local biological or dietary variation, much like other organisms grow and behave differently in distant parts of the world, then we need to accept it before we make a stupid mistake, including thinking we can carry on as mini-America.

    As it stands, a further outbreak seems unlikely, if the borders stay closed, if the schedule for Levels of restriction are not overruled on a whim, and if the rules are not relaxed or overlooked for that special film crew, management consultant, or team of vineyard labourers. A worse case scenario could happen under Labour, but seems unlikely. It has a much higher chance of happening under National. I may not vote at all, the choices are so poor, but my guess is that the borders would be most secure under The Greens. Before you vote National, be sure that if they open the borders and this virus gets a hold again, the government strategy will be different, either just like the USA, or draconian restrictions, and then there is going to be total economic collapse in NZ.

    The problem now is nothing we can control: International trade and supply lines slowing down, so common goods reduced or stopped for a while. This provides us with massive opportunities for change, but also a period of serious conflict between the outlook, attitudes and preferences of the Old World, and what we have to do to remain a coherent nation.
    • lprent 12.1

      5 June 2020 at 8:51 am

      We got off lightly owing to some weakness of the virus, and the way we socialise.

      Ardern’s unscientific and politically expedient approach in Level 3/4 transitions,

      What that really shows is that you simply don’t understand much basic science. That you’re an ignorant idiot rattling off a pile of idiotic bullshit completely lacking any specific details.

      In short – you are are waffle merchant with about as much technical expertise as a chicken. The moral equivalent of a hand-waver trying to dance angels on the head of pin. Making vague assertions as if having a moron speak was a way of creating fact like zero point energy, when really you’re just a wanker spraying your seed and thinking that it is something unique.

      Would you care to comment on why that is not the case. Personally I love to rip holes into fatuous trolls whose ego exceeds their intelligence and knowledge.

      By the way, please read the site policy and try not to whine….
13. TJ 13

    5 June 2020 at 9:05 am

    I just checked the rules and yes, I broke the rules. Please remove my post. My opinion is not scientific, though genuinely held. I will not post here again.
    • Incognito 13.1

      5 June 2020 at 9:21 am

      I think you missed the point. There’s a difference between opinion and assertion. A widely held opinion, which is an assertion per se, is still not a fact. There’s nothing wrong with having an opinion, as long as you don’t masquerade it has an assertion. If you make assertions, you need to (be able to) back them up with evidence. Instead of putting up a decent argument, preferably with some supportive specific details, you decide to run away in a pseudo-offended manner. If you have read the Policy and rules, you will know that this site encourages robust debate AKA put up or shut up.
      • francesca 13.1.1

        5 June 2020 at 5:08 pm

        Surely robust debate can have rigour without the absolute torrents of unhinged offensive abuse.

        It is surely possible to have a debate without slinging foul insults .Too much ego and bullying
        • Incognito 13.1.1.1

          5 June 2020 at 9:30 pm

          If you’re referring to the comment by Lprent, that wasn’t really part of a debate or discussion, which was the point he was making, but it was intended as a learning moment for those who don’t engage in robust debate. It has taken me a while to look behind the barrage of bad language and see its purpose and effect. It is not my style but I have to admit that it is quite effective in finding and hitting its aim. I may add that I think the world is too PC and that people have become lazy and don’t engage their brains enough. But that’s just a personal note 😉
          • francesca 13.1.1.1.1

            6 June 2020 at 8:04 am

            I thought the point of the venue is debate and discussion , the personal invective is of a level to shut discussion down and totally disproportionate to the original post

            PC has got zero to do with it in my humble opinion. PC is about a hypersensitivity/avoidance towards offending those perceived as having a disability or disadvantage

            I get you fellows see yourselves as "not suffering fools gladly" and after all this is your platform so you get to pass judgement on others' intellect and tear them down

            I guess it's where we've got to in these times of not so civil discourse
            • Incognito 13.1.1.1.1.1

              6 June 2020 at 10:31 pm

              Ok, let me try again.

              There was no debate or discussion to begin with. The commenter appeared to be new here and made the rookie mistake (!) of contributing nothing but ‘white noise’, to put it diplomatically. They were invited, or challenged or provoked, if you like, to put up a decent argument. It was explained to them how robust debate works, here and everywhere else, for that matter. It was a test.

              They failed the test.

              No harm was done except perhaps a slightly dented ego for a short time. No discussion was shut down. We will have avoided wasting time on noise. Most likely, we will have saved on Moderator time too. In Election Year, these considerations are more important.

              Your judgement of the Moderators is off and you got the wrong end of the stick, IMO. This is not my platform in any way, shape, or form. I volunteer considerable amounts of my time and energy here on this free platform (without ads!) just like the others do. The Standard Trust (https://thestandard.org.nz/about/#who_are_you) owns the site.

              Most of what we do here is educating commenters on their behaviour, not tearing down their content or the commenters themselves. In fact, we moderate against commenters attacking and shooting the messenger. IMHO, this is anything but shutting down discussion; it is enabling and encouraging robust debate.

              Robust debate and civil discourse are two different approaches that generally have the same purpose or intent, at least. Style and tone differ, of course. Indeed, robust debate doesn’t suit everyone.

              Lastly, I added the sentence about PC and intellectual laziness as a personal note; I said so. It was not the main gist and still isn’t.
              • francesca …

                7 June 2020 at 7:23 am

                " you are aresic waffle merchant"

                "you’re an ignorant idiot "

                "you’re just a wanker spraying your seed"

                Call that robust debate?

                Thats just some form of emotional incontinence, and anyone else would have been censured
                • Incognito …

                  7 June 2020 at 6:31 pm

                  No, of course I don’t call that robust debate.

                  It is not intended to be robust debate.

                  It is aimed at challenging commenters to change their behaviour.

                  It is aimed at weeding out commenters who don’t, won’t, and never will contribute to robust debate.

                  Its purpose is to be instructional and commenters with weak egos and emotional incontinence usually cannot handle being held a mirror up to them.

                  You don’t have to like it, but it is effective, sometimes perhaps too effective …
    • lprent 13.2

      5 June 2020 at 9:35 am

      You didn't 'break the rules'. You just got a response of opinion tailored at the same fact-free and background-free style of opinion as you used – but a little enhanced. However rather than being directed at anonymous target, mine was directed at you personally.

      If you want to express an opinion, it pays to say why you hold that opinion rather than just making a set of simpleminded assertions that offer nothing to any debate. That offers others a chance to understand where you are coming from and to explain why they think you are incorrect – usually with informative links.

      Instead your comment sounded like a troll trying to start a flame war with malice aforethought for the sheer hell of getting responses. So I gave you a response that was a reflection on how your comment appeared to me… Welcome to robust debate.

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