Ihumātao

Written By: - Date published: 7:32 am, July 31st, 2019 - 119 comments
Categories: auckland supercity, national, nick smith, uncategorized - Tags:

Ihumātao has been in the news lately.

Thanks Weka for your post. It is a really important issue and letting people understand the background is vital.

The issue strikes various nerves with me.  I grew up in Mangere and Ihumātao is an area that I used to go to quite often.  It was on the edge of the city, always on the other edge of the city. It had a timeless feel about it.

Te Kawerau ā Maki have Mana Whenua status for much of the local board area.  I have had a relationship with the tribe for a long while.  Te Warena Taua and I used to discuss the goal of meaningful protection for the Waitakere Ranges and TKAM threw its weight behind the Heritage Area Act.  In his view the great forest of Tiriwa deserved nothing less. 

TKAM takes its status seriously.  Frustrated at Council not getting to grips quickly with Kauri dieback in the Waitakere Ranges Te Warena declared a Rahui, such was his dissatisfaction with the delay. Council’s enhanced response to Kauri dieback can be directly linked back to Te Warena’s stand.

TKAM has been at the forefront of efforts to protect the Ihumātao area.  In 2012 the tribe opposed private efforts to move the metropolitan urban limit and allow development of the area.  It claimed that the whole area was waahi tapu.

It opposed the approval of a special housing area by Council and the Government in 2013.  It protested against the lack of consultation but to no avail.

The tribe then negotiated with Fletchers about the development of the land and obtained significant concessions.  The major concessions that were negotiated include:

  • Affordable housing for whanau
  • Employment and training opportunities
  • Protection and enhancement of their natural and cultural heritage,
  • Return of confiscated ancestral land to the ownership of mana whenua, to be preserved in perpetuity for the welfare of whanau.

These comments are taken from submissions made by Te Warena Taua to Auckland Council on August 27, 2015 in response to a SOUL presented petition urging Council to stop the development.  At that meeting Cathy Casey moved a resolution that Council revokes its recommendation that the area be established as a special housing area.  The resolution was lost five to twelve.

I can understand TKAM’s desire to get on with things.  It has completed its treaty settlement.  The tribe’s elders want to get on and complete the projects that they have set themselves to.  It is a small tribe and its human and financial resources are limited. 

And they have performed remarkably well.  Having fought the Government the Council and Fletchers for the past eight years they have come up with a compromise that they can live with.

But  a longer term view causes a completely different perspective to be reached.  The land was confiscated by the Crown in 1863 under the pretext that Waikato Tainui were in rebellion but as conceded by the Crown in the treaty settlement this was not the case.  The Crown has settled claims on two occasions and former Labour Prime Minister Peter Fraser said after the first one that he had no doubts about the “inherent justice of the claims of the Maori people”.

But this claim has been settled.  And part of the settlement involved the transfer of a 3 hectare block of land in the general Ihumatao area to Waikato Tainui.

There are very strong urban design considerations against development of the land.  It will increase urban sprawl and, unless the light rail can be diverted, will not be served by public transport.

And the land is very fertile.  The last thing that Auckland should be doing is building on its best arable land.

So there is a whole mix of problems here. Government advisors will no doubt be talking about setting precedents and the potential problem of addressing claims involving land that has been in private ownership for over 150 years. But this issue is not going to go away quickly.

One final comment.  This current government should not be criticised.  Development of this land is a direct result of lax RMA standards and Nick Smith’s disastrous mixed housing regime which is directly responsible for this messy situation.

119 comments on “Ihumātao”

  1. marty mars 1

    "This current government should not be criticised". – ummm no sorry they can be and should be – time to stop yabbing and deliver – this isn't the Foreshore and Seabed issue where labour can ride roughshod over it all.
    btw – macrons would help this post.

    • peterh 1.1

      Criticised for what

      • marty mars 1.1.1

        well for trying to frame this as young versus old for a start – stupid framing that completely misses the point – hardened attitudes and bought back not great memories for many…

    • mickysavage 1.2

      Thanks Marty.  I have added macrons.

      The default position is that the development will continue.  The point I was making is that this particular development has nothing to do with Labour's actions.

      • marty mars 1.2.1

        we have a saying at work – "you may not have caused all the issues and you are the one who will have to sort through them"

        Labour could make real gains here but pretending the activists are 'others' will not do it.

        Thanks for the macrons Micky appreciated

      • Sabine 1.2.2

        well granted it has nothing to do with Labour's actions under the last National Government. 

        but like it or not, it will have to do with Labour's actions now, and so far it seems that they could do better. 

        In fact, where was Labour when the whole  trade was going down. I know they were in opposition, but what did they do or rather what did they not do. 

        Just wishy wasy kinder is not gonna cut it long term, maybe some bite needs to be added to the kinder and gentler labour government? 

  2. Dennis Frank 2

    Good to see your personal take, from that depth of experience.  I note you have chosen not to comment on the protest itself.  That’s significant!  Complexity of the situation seems unprecedented, so fair enough to leave it to those closer to the action.

    Cultural heritage is clearly a primary dimension: part of the origin story of Aotearoa, rock walls that apparently originated in the 14th century according to someone speaking on RNZ yesterday.

    Treaty rights are clearly a primary dimension:  the settlement seems not to have been in full accord.  If it had been, local iwi disputes would have been resolved by the process.

    Reluctance to open the latter can of worms is understandable, yet grievances persist when genuine resolution is evaded.

    • Dukeofurl 2.1

      "Cultural heritage is clearly a primary dimension: part of the origin story of Aotearoa, rock walls that apparently originated in the 14th century according to someone speaking on RNZ yesterday."

      That part  is already part of the park  created in 2001. if you had been to area you would see the proposed housing area is flattish farmland , surrounded by 'European stone walls'

      • marty mars 2.1.1

        "surrounded by 'European stone walls' "

        What? NO WAY, not EUROpean stone walls – those buggers got the dibs on that bloody early and now ALL around the world they have found european stone walls everywhere, just all over the place. Seeded by the very first europeans – blessed be them.

        • Dennis Frank 2.1.1.1

          I assume the duke is citing signage?  If so, I'd be tempted to see the sign as evidence of colonialism.  I mean, really!  Anyone with an historical overview knows that European naval adventures beyond the pillars of Hercules didn't get up & running till after the 14th century.  Dunno the basis for dating the walls to then, but if reliable they were almost certainly built by Tainui arrivals.

        • Dukeofurl 2.1.1.2

          Oh dear . The ignorance is big.  Yes the Maori gardens used stone walls. So did the european colonisers both here and other places as fences.

          Separate walls separate uses.

          The historic gardens/walls are in the park. The housing land has european stone walls as fences,  to enclose the open pastures , very little sign of   historic garden /walls there. No one is really suggesting the later farming stone walls are all that historic

          So much history , so much ignorance

          https://teara.govt.nz/en/photograph/15290/stone-walls

          The main picture for the post, is of the park looking to Manukau harbour showing both types of stone walls- historic gardens and european farming

          • marty mars 2.1.1.2.1

            yes you are a real ignoramus – I'd say you have vested interests but your comments are so dim I can't imagine who for

        • greywarshark 2.1.1.3

          First there was the flag, and then the European stone walls!

  3. Pat 3

    The current (central) government perhaps cannot be criticised, or at least to this point…but they have the problem of now attempting to resolve it and that leaves ample space for criticism….theyre going to need a lot of luck.

    https://www.rnz.co.nz/national/programmes/morningreport/audio/2018706507/ihumatao-mandate-system-divides-maori-kaumatua-protestor

  4. marty mars 4

    Moana Jackson

    Jackson says Māori can avoid conflict over Ihumātao by being “patiently understanding” with each other and remembering it is the Crown that created the problem.

    “By bearing in mind what the initial injustice was and how that injustice still needs to be resolved and that is the malfeasance, the dishonourable conduct of the Crown, to try and understand the damaging effects that injustice still has on our people, not just Ihumātao but around the country,” he says.

    According to Jackson, the Crown is the one who must right the situation.

    “Keep going back to who caused the harm, and the causing of the harm was the Crown and the Crown still has responsibility for the damage," he says.

    "Part of the ongoing effects of that damage is the fracturing and the division that it has caused among our people. And we need to be, I think, patiently understanding really of the causes of that division and keep looking at what was the originating cause, which was the Crown.” 

    https://teaomaori.news/ihumatao-dont-forget-crown-caused-problem-moana-jackson?

  5. Muttonbird 5

    TKAM might feel be doing a very good job in most areas but they compromised too much too soon on this one.

    The Crown (National) tried to steal their land a second time with the announcement of an SHA at Ihumātao.

    TKAM knew it was wrong.

    Council knew it was wrong.

    The fight should not have been abandoned there for the sake of some concessions of questionable long term benefit.

  6. esoteric pineapples 6

    I think Ihumatao is about the law. New Zealand, as it became reinvented by European colonisation, is based on the preeminent rights of private ownership over everything else, especially when it comes to the land. The law protects private property more than anything else in New Zealand. It is a capitalist system imported from Britain in the mid-nineteenth century which by that time had allowed small private property owners into the club. New Zealand was to be sliced up and divided into little parcels for these petit capitalists all to own a part of. Those immigrants who didn't own any capital were promised that by working hard once they got here, they too would become part of the private property owning class. Of course, the land component of this private property had to come from somewhere and where it came from is pretty obvious.

    And so we come to the present day situation where property owners have the right to cut down 200 year old Kauri trees in Auckland with the court making protestors pay the cost of their protests, the attitude of property owners that it is there right not to pay tax on income from investment properties, Ihumatao, fishing species to extinction, any number of issues relating to polluting rivers, etc, etc

    In an alternative historical universe, perhaps Europeans arrived in New Zealand and looked at the way Maori legal system worked and a hybrid legal system evolved where the law gave equal recognition to the collective good as private rights.

    While I think it is important to respect the law, Parliament is the highest court in the land and has the power to change any law it wants to. So maybe we need to start moving away from laws that are based on the paramount right of private property ownership for laws that are bit more balanced.

    Of course, this would lead to a massive backlash from New Zealand's petit capitalist land owning class. If they can't handle a capital gains tax, they certainly aren't going to quietly let their right to do anything they want to on their property be impinged. I mean, farmers can't even be legally required to wear helmets on their quad bikes even though it kills and injures a number of them and their workers every year.

    On the other hand 50 percent of New Zealanders who will never own a property may feel differently, especially as they get squeezed between low wages and high accommodation costs.

    • Wayne 6.1

      Esoteric pineapples,

      What you are suggesting won't happen. As you note, the PM baulked at CGT. So the sort of reform you envisage is a non starter. It would require a Green led government. In any event how long would such a reform last? Only until the next National led government.

      Governments in any event have many more subtle options. How they use the Public works act. How they negotiate with private owners. How the RMA controls use of land.

      In any event, in a broader sense, private title that is basically immune from government taking (which is the general rule in NZ, as indeed it is in all developed economies) is central to how these nations have built their wealth. Owners can develop their land knowing they won't lose it.  They have exclusive ownership, that is others won't interfere with their rights. Banks can lend on it knowing their security is enforceable. All these things are the basis upon which wealth (in a broad sense) can be built. Those nations that do not have these features in respect of private title are invariably poor nations.

      • marty mars 6.1.1

        "private title that is basically immune from government taking…"

        Yep this is the way it works – steal the land, change the laws to protect your stolen land, say the law is the law. Happens in all the colonised countries – it is where the wealth comes from for the haves.

        • Wayne 6.1.1.1

          Marty mars,

          You are rather missing the point (no doubt deliberately) about why land title (and other property title) should not be subject to arbitrary confiscation. As indeed is recognised about the 1860's confiscations. It is why we have a treaty settlements process.

          • marty mars 6.1.1.1.1

            No my point was made – you however ARE missing the real point but not unexpectedly tbh 

        • AB 6.1.1.2

          "Happens in all the colonised countries"

          Yes – and actually it happened within those colonising countries too – before they repeated the exercise in their colonies. Enclosures of the commons etc. Sometimes referred to as "primitive accumulation", but let's not mention where that idea comes from…

          • marty mars 6.1.1.2.1

            so they did it to their own people then came over here and did it – ffs pity they didn't learn anything about the pain of loss

      • I 'd rather live in a poor nation, than a nation that embraced Trickle Up economics and ended up with the majority of people being genuinely miserable.

  7. michelle 7

    farmers should have no grounds to stand on here they have had their hands out for far too long our government just spent 84 million of our taxes to solve their  m bovis mess 

    • New view 7.1

      I know you don’t like farmers  Michelle, but try to keep your uneducated contempt for them to yourself. MBovis is no different to any dangerous disease that could find it’s way into this country. However illegal the colonisation of this country is now, it certainly wasn’t when the farmers took that land then. Colonisation was happening all over the commonwealth and legality didn’t come into it. I’m not saying it was right,  but that’s what was happening and what was accepted. People like you Michelle,  are pissed off with what happened and want it put it right. Good idea but bad mentality. Get the chip off your shoulder Michelle and fight your fight through promoting change through good comments rather than abusing the white right and anyone else that disagrees with your point of view. 

      • marty mars 7.1.1

        "… rather than abusing the white right and anyone else that disagrees with your point of view. "

        lol the white right deserve what they get – they should hang their heads in shame the damage they have caused people.

        • New view 7.1.1.1

          So every pakeha that happens to be a National Party member caused all the damage that you say has happened to this country. In my opinion you and Michelle are a matching pair. And not to bright. Even if you’re referring to parliamentarians, which I wasn’t, surely the labour parties of the past and present must have got something wrong. Or am I out of order. 

          • marty mars 7.1.1.1.1

            if you start your sentence with "So every blah blah blah … " it sorta shows you're not really ready for a proper discussion – quite white right and wrong it seems

            • New view 7.1.1.1.1.1

              Sort of like using lol all the time Marty. You have my attention so start that discussion you’re accusing me of not having, considering my original comment was to Michelle. 

              • marty mars

                Look you are a retired farmer right? Why not talk about that instead of dim right wankers – your knowledge could help people but instead you want to go into bat defending the stupid thick racists.

                You know fuck all about what is going on up north and I'd hope you know more about how we can improve farming and reduce the suicide of so many farmers – why don't you write about that REAL shit?

                • New view

                  You are right Marty I was reacting to what someone had said not specifically about the subject. But I most likely know as much about what’s going on at Ihumātao as a large number of the hangers on that have been supporting Paula Newton and her friends. I understand that the land in question has historical significance and is most likely the last land of its type in the Auckland area. After  it had originally been taken from the local Māori was sold privately and so was never really challenged when most of the other Waitangi settlements were taking place. Paula Newton believes the local Iwi are wrong to do a deal with Fletchers and the whole situation should be renegotiated. There you go Marty I know fuck all about what’s happening up north. I’m not saying it shouldn’t be re negotiated but I get sick of people who think that right wing politics is any different to left wing. And people who think anybody who’s got anything of value must have taken it. All the farmers are bad because they farm confiscated land and have dirty dairy cows. What happened in NZ over 100 years ago is happening as we speak all over the world. Africa is a cot case. Anywhere there’s religion there’s war and acquisition. Look at the Gaza Strip. These issues aren’t going to be solved any time soon but generalising like Michelle does just annoys me. Right wing politics is bad left wing is good. Anybody who  owns land is bad anybody who has nothing is good. I’ve suffered more than you etc. at least I try and add something sensible. 

                  • marty mars

                    yep onya

                  • michelle

                    new view i am from Tainui i can  whakapapa to that land and i don't generalise I am speaking from my own experiences and my knowledge about our whakapapa and history something you cant relate to and never will 

          • The Al1en 7.1.1.1.2

            And not to bright.

            You'll cringe when you read that back.

      • solkta 7.1.2

        However illegal the colonisation of this country is now, it certainly wasn’t when the farmers took that land then.

        Of course the confiscations of land were illegal at the time. What an ignorant thing to say. The British offered and Maori signed a treaty that created a new nation with Maori having the rights of British subjects but then when Maori would not sell more land the Crown invaded their lands and and stole it.

      • michelle 7.1.3

        stop stereo typing new view with an old view I am not  uneducated i have two university degree or does that not count god your a big fat racist 

    • Muttonbird 7.2

      Now $200million of taxpayer's money wasted because farmers could not or would not use, or be policed on using, the tracking system put there to stop diseases like M Bovis.

      This will cost us $1Billion.

      Thanks farmers. Thanks National. Thanks Nathan Guy.

      https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2019/06/25/651872/mbovis-cost-passes-200m

      Thank god dairy conversions have stopped and in some areas are reversing – a massive achievement for this government despite some commenters claiming they've achieved nothing.

      • New view 7.2.1

        Yes muttonbird. Bad bad farmers not using a system that was totally inadequate. I’m a retired farmer and always filled out the required forms when transporting stock. Some didn’t and it’s come back to haunt the country. But it’s no different to mindless tourists who bring in illegal produce or people who illegally dump rubbish and flush toxic shit down their toilets. Farmers are a fashionable target at the moment but from where we stand  city folk have a bad smell about them at times as well. Be careful who you point your finger at especially if you’re looking in the mirror. 

  8. Dennis Frank 8

    What follows is my response to comment #6, but I’ve decided to list it separately to provide historical/political context.

    Private property rights have never been anything other than an imperial bullshit scheme.  There is no moral basis for privatising part of Gaia.  On the other hand, I feel the same as any other owner of a home + land, and would feel threatened by any dispossession attempt.  My advocacy for Greens policy has long been a both/and solution.

    What this means is synthesis:  stewardship of the commons combined with acknowledging land as inherently communal, while retaining right of occupancy and usage as per status quo.  In law, it would require re-constitutionalising.  As Sir Geoffrey has been providing via his books and website enterprise – even if he is typical Labour and lacks the full vision.  So traditional Maori rights are integrated, and we accept Aotearoa as a land that must be respected and regenerated.  Rather than exploited for private profit.

    The wealth deriving from land usage must support the people of the land, but I agree those who own & operate the systems have a right to profit thereby.  The proportions of allocation must be subjected to a consensus of all stakeholders.  Which is where politics comes in, of course. That's how I've seen it for the past thirty years.

    • Dukeofurl 8.1

      Oh pleeese.    My yurt can go where it likes on the Steppes,  but in developed and  crowded cities not so much.

      For better or worse , land title based or recorded ownership ( down to the minute !) is a part of our system

      • Dennis Frank 8.1.1

        System gotta change, but via tweaking, not revolution.  Just yank the imperialism, leave the rest as is.  MPs oath to swear to serve the public, not the crown, for instance…

  9. mauī 9

    I've done my best to understand what's going on here. I get the impression Te Kawerau ā Maki has run roughshod over the local Makarau Marae (responsible for the SOUL protest and are associated with a different iwi). 

    TKAM looks to have taken advantage of their broad Auckland jurisdiction and decided it was a good idea to approve housing in another iwi's backyard, who have a much stronger connection to that Ihumātao land. Quite disgraceful if true.

    • marty mars 9.1

      imo it is not correct to frame it as a Māori verses Māori issue – the Crown created it and the Crown divides as a tactic, and the Crown can fix.

    • Dukeofurl 9.2

      You have it round the wrong way.

      Its a few whanau ,  some of them elders and outsiders like Tania Newton who  are trying reverse the decisions of the  iwi.

      • SHG 9.2.1

        outsiders like Tania Newton

        oh lol

        • Dukeofurl 9.2.1.1

          Thats what the local iwi are saying.

          And she is cagey about this  but in other circumstances gives her whakapapa as  Tainui and Ngapuhi, shes certainly not as local as   she gives an 'impression'. There was even a formal hearing at the Environment Court where another kuia supporting  SOUL  is described as  having unimpeachable Te Kawerau a Maki whakapa and Miss Newton, the court says has provided 'none'

          • mauī 9.2.1.1.1

            The local iwi live at Ihumatao village and back SOUL and their marae, not Te Kawerau a Maki.

            But hey if we're making things up you could do a family tree for the protesters lol.

          • marty mars 9.2.1.1.2

            bullshit – you're just making it up as you go doofus

          • michelle 9.2.1.1.3

            divide an rule is at play and it wont work today 

      • mauī 9.2.2

        Yeah just a few… like 95% of Ihumātao families…

        The local Makaurau Marae Committee reckons 76 of the 80 households in Ihumatao Village oppose the Fletcher development. 

        https://www.noted.co.nz/planet/ihumatao-and-the-otuataua-stonefields-a-very-special-area/

      • marty mars 9.2.3

        bullshit – aren't you sick of that lie yet 

  10. i don't see this issue as being that complex:

    1) there definitely was a settlement – long populated by maori..

    2) at the time of the ramping up of the waikato land wars – the settlement was visited by maori fighting for colonisers + soldiers..

    and the residents were asked to take sides in the conflict – to pledge alleigance to the crown/colonisers – or be viewed as the enemy – with the consequences that entailed..

    3) not wanting to pledge alleigance/take sides – the long-time residents decamped to the waikato..

    4) the crown then cited this retreat as an abandonment of their land/rights..

    5) and used that as grounds to steal that land..

    what is complicated about that..?

    it was clearly stolen – so fucken give it back..!

    • Wayne 10.1

      Phillip Ure

      As you probably actually know, successive governments do not take land that was confiscated in the 1860's and has been in private title ever since, and just give it back.

      Spend a moments thought as to the implications of that. And when you do, you will know why your suggestion is impossible.

      Treaty settlements basically use land that is currently in crown ownership as the primary means of redress. And money.

      There have been some cases of voluntary sales by private owners to the Crown which then is transferred by the Crown to the iwi. But these are voluntary sales for full market value.

      • phillip ure 10.1.1

        of course i am aware of the 'dangers' of precedent – seeing as most land was stiolen – but in this case an obvios solution wold e for gum mint to buy it back and turn it into a national park/historical site..

        that dodges around the precedent issue – and wd give the site the import it deserves…

    • Dukeofurl 10.2

      Ure, would you return back the land  confiscated  by 'the Crown' in Britain from the monasterys. It was  quite a lot of land

      • phillip ure 10.2.1

        as my lineage is scots/irish/welsh…you'd hafta say there was a fair bit of land confiscation going on there…ut some wrongs are more glaring than others..

        • Dukeofurl 10.2.1.1

          Do you know that the Kaweraua maki  iwi arrived from Taranaki to take the land around Auckland by conquest.   Ngati Whatua  were originally from the northern Kaipara  ( one part still are) and  settled on the Isthmus by conquest.

          Whats your cutoff point when confiscation/conquest of the land is OK and  when its not.?

      • WILD KATIPO 10.2.2

        But would we bulldoze down a Scots castle of significance and put in a parking lot and suburban sprawl as well….?

        Well ,… we do know in times past that the locals dismantled many historic buildings and took the material to build their own dwellings, … but that generally wouldnt happen in 2019.  Well , … if Scotland can maintain those heritage areas, why cant New Zealand?

        http://www.caithness.org/caithness/castles/gunn/gunnreconstruction.jpg

        That btw .. is me Dads peoples castle. Not really a good example as it was built on a rocky crag and hardly somewhere’s someone would want to park their cars or build their houses,…. but you get the point I’m making about preserving historic heritage sites.

        Now the land in question is not a pa site and certainly not a castle,… but it IS a place of significant archaeological importance. Thus it must be protected as we don’t have all to many of them left.

        The land should be put aside as such.

    • michelle 10.3

      plus 100 Mr Ure  

  11. SHG 11

    thank you mickeysavage for this one-eyed bit of spin on behalf of TKAM. 

    Look around – you’re on the wrong side of history. 

    • Dukeofurl 11.1

      Take off your boots before you trample all over the local iwi mana.  Who are you to tell them  about  what parts of their history are 'wrong'

  12. bwaghorn 12

    Just to clarify a point . Did TKAM take this issue to the waitangi tribunal? And what was their recommendation ?

    • Dukeofurl 12.1

      Its complicated because of overlapping iwi  rohe. But the basic answer is yes. There maybe some issues outstanding but the  treaty claim hearing was  at the  Te Makarau marae  nearby  some decades ago

      • bwaghorn 12.1.1

        Well surely to fuck if Maori want to relitigate claims that are settled then it makes a farce of the process and will wear thin very quickly with the average kiwi.

        • Gabby 12.1.1.1

          That waka sailed a fair while ago waggeroni.

          • Dukeofurl 12.1.1.1.1

            What he doesnt understand is that private land was never a part of Waitangi Tribunal recommendations or Crown/Iwi settlements.

            More Cleghorne than Waghorne

            • bwaghorn 12.1.1.1.1.1

              That's what make this such an issue . If they start taking private land where does it end . ?

                • bwaghorn

                  I'm aware of that , but do you truly think going around taking private land off people who had absolutely nothing to do with the theft of Maori land is a good idea. ? Because I doubt their is a person Alive in nz that was involved. 

                  Its time to move on . 

                  Pania Newton would have a far happier life if she hadn't been bought feeling she had been robbed.

                  • marty mars

                    fuck you noddy

                    • bwaghorn

                      So your pro taking private land ?

                    • marty mars

                      no I am neutral to be honest – some I would take – like the high country farms owned by the uber-rich for instance – the average house no of course not. The fact is there is no proposal to take any private land – it will be worried to death when or if it is proposed.

                      If you say just get over it you'll get push back from me – why don't you just get over your fear and move on, why don't you get over that and move on?

                    • bwaghorn

                      You might be onto something. 

                      But look over seas where entrenched hatred in places like northern Ireland and Serbia led to unspeakable tragedies.  

                    • marty mars

                      the entrenched hatred is not from tangata whenua imo – look around at who kills other people for their skin colour or religion or ethnicity – anyway I just think we need to find a solution that protects the land – that is my angle.

        • michelle 12.1.1.2

          and who is the average kiwi Mr Waghorn ?    

    • Pat 12.2

      my understanding is the land was unable to be considered as part of the settlement as it was in private title

    • vto 13.1

      you're keen pointing to that stuff around these here parts … it aint well tolerated … not allowed

      • greywarshark 13.1.1

        I like the end of your link Hamish – it says that it is not black and white.

        That seems to be your wish though.   In human behaviour everything is slightly murky – just a matter of perception.    We step around each others sensitivities and come to an agreement to do this, lessen that, relinquish this in exchange for that, refuse to let this go and demand reparation for that.   And after talking and negotiating come to the end with nobody getting exactly what they wanted, but getting enough out of the agreement to enable a satisfactory way forward.

        And saying we need to stop living in the past.   What a hoot.   We are sinking back to colonial times and it sounds as if you are on the side that wants to come out on top, wiping the floor with the underlings as in the 1800s.    We can do better than that, we want to hold onto the good from the past, and bring it with us to the present, and find out how it can help us face the future.   

        You might want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but we want to hold onto the baby, and you can fling yourself off the cliff holding the bath.    We would mourn you for a short time, but could then turn and better face what is a fearsome future with twin foes – climate change travails, and the rise of the overseeing technology that wants to bind us and control us at every point of our lives, which won't be our own any more.

        That indeed will be different from the past, and how we will be nostalgic for the days when we were free to argue and take action and be individuals trying to make our own lives and our own mistakes.

    • vto 13.2

      there has been a recent push, quite rightly, for the country to look at, learn and understand the land wars.

      but this should reach back further than that to all wars and battles that scarred this land prior to the arrival of the pommy bastards.

      shouldn't it?

    • Dennis Frank 13.3

      "Te Rauparaha was a cannibal who once hung a captured chief upside-down, killed him and ate him… Te Rauparaha has been immortalised and honoured. His name adorns Te Rauparaha Arena in Porirua, and when the All Blacks perform Ka Mate, ‘the haka’ before a match, it is the one he composed."

      Possibly a problem, if someone translated the haka and it turned out to be something along the lines of `I'm gonna kill you & eat you'.  Could then be argued that the All Blacks are a tad non-pc…

        • Dennis Frank 13.3.1.1

          Huh.  A challenge that isn't a challenge.  You can imagine the other tribe listening, thinking "Hey, they're trying to distract us with gibberish.  Stay focused."  Perhaps Te R can be seen as an early exponent of postmodernism.

    • Pretty balanced article tbh.

      It is actually the truth in many respects…. I cite the 'Highland Clearances' during the 18th century which led to genocide. Its where we get the term 'Fishmongers wife' as the Scots crofters were forced off their lands by English constabulary / militia after buying off Scots Highland Chieftains and forced to eke out a hard living on the coast fishing. The men would be out fishing and the women would be in virtual slavery processing the catch.

      Bear in mind, that at one time Scotland had some of the most advanced academic University's in Europe at that time and before that… the people were dispossessed.

      Highland Clearances | Scottish Tartans Authority

      http://www.tartansauthority.com › Resources

      Highland Clearances – Wikipedia

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

      You see its all happened before, and not dissimilar to any other period of land grabs,… Britain followed the Roman model by and large,- to save status and military lives they pitted one tribe against the other. The Roman model was to take territory's , and to take those territory's by stealth if possible. Divide and conquer. Far cheaper. What the Maoris suffer today is what the Scots, the Irish and the Welsh suffer as well.

      The difference being is that they all got a turn being in the Royal House,- barring the Irish. And to my clans shame they formed the bulk of the Galoglass,- the mercenary's that aided the English in sacking parts of Ireland and creating the divide between the Northern and Southern Irish to this day….

      • Dukeofurl 13.4.1

        Its not called the Norman Conquest for nothing. The existing   Saxon hierachy had their lands  confiscated too.

        The Communist revolution in Russia  confiscated all private property, should it be returned to their owners, the aristocracy  or even  small farm owners who were collectivised after the large land  holdings were broken up

        • WILD KATIPO 13.4.1.1

          Yes and the Danish vikings set up the region under the ' Danelaw' – in the middle and to the east of England after being defeated by the Anglo – Saxon King Alfred. It is interesting that genetic tests establish that the DNA of both peoples were essentially the same barring a period of 300 years… basically ,… they were the same people stock from what is now North Germany , Holland and Danemark.

          It was essentially an attempted power/ land transfer between the same people of the same origins.

          Which , – was no different than the land grabs many of the pre colonization Maori were doing to each other. Along with inter marrying and trade. Exactly the same human preoccupation with power.

          The Normans ,…  were originally Vikings from Norway ( my ancient ancestors on me Dads side aka Clan Gun were Norse descendant's as were the MacDonalds, Henderson's  and many, many others who became known 'Scots' clans, though not Celtics in origin   ) , however , and , after trying to hold the King of France and his country ransom , finally succeeded and were admitted to the French Court. There , they set about influencing French Politics and by family connections, William the Conqueror asserted his right to the throne of England through inheritance.

          And so we see that it is not quite as simple as saying ''Its not called the Norman Conquest for nothing. The existing  Saxon hierachy had their lands  confiscated too'',… as has been established … the Danes / Danish Vlikings and the Anglo Saxons genetically ,… are essentially one and the same people.

          And closely related are the Norse.  Albeit not quite as closely.

          The point of all this is :

          A genetically similar peoples, can , will and do ,… practice power plays and land grabs between themselves for enrichment at the expense of others, resources , prestige , power , authority , pre eminence , women  , lands, … and the Maoris were no exception.

          They , – were essentially no different from the Germanic language speaking peoples of the far north of Europe. The conquests, the power plays and the land grabs were identical to those practiced by their far away northern counterparts. 

          And when viewed in stark reality , stripped of all romanticism , … we finally get to the truth. And the truth is human nature its very self.

        • SHG 13.4.1.2

          did they have treaties?

          • WILD KATIPO 13.4.1.2.1

            Treaty's are usually forwarded by a stronger opponent who sees an opportunity to pacify a weaker opponent and eventually try a more subtle political form of getting what they want. Rarely is it done by sides that are of equal strength,… then its usually either a 'cold war' situation or a series of summits leading to limited disarmament or renewed trade links.

            A case in point is the countless treaty's between the Native Americans and the U.S govt and the corresponding number of those treaty's that were broken , – with the Native Americans receiving either poverty, starvation , genocide or a combination of all three.

            • WILD KATIPO 13.4.1.2.1.1

              My favourite Sundance song from this group.

              And although this may be slipping into the areas of foreign lands and the considerations of Anthropology , in a roundabout way ,… they are all interconnected with the historic core issues of the effects of colonization.

              And how the 2019 dispute of a relatively small area of land is now under scrutiny. Enough scrutiny to involve a govt that until recently , had hoped to hide from the issues behind both current legal dogma and washing its hands by relegating it to an internal tribal one.

              Traditional Lakota/Dakota Sundance Songs 3/6 – YouTube

        • greywarshark 13.4.1.3

          Getting away from the here and now.   While what was done should be kept in mind as applying to far away in another time, but still similar problems to ours, we have decided on how to cope with ours.   Give a little, take less, and back and forth trying to achieve a new parity, a new New Zealand approach that works for us.

          • WILD KATIPO 13.4.1.3.1

            Indeed,… however,… those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

            And those who do not recognize the inherent tendency's of humankind are also subject to those contemporary opportunists who choose to rewrite history for their own avarice and political agendas.

            Important to keep those factors in mind also.

            • greywarshark 13.4.1.3.1.1

              And each of us could see ourselves in some historical context.   Are we following in the footprints of our people from the past who adopted certain pragmatic positions, and how do we feel about those now?  They might have been wrong but how to make good now without giving up everything gained.   And how to get off the mouse wheel if it is about to repeat much of the past.   That's a little conundrum that can turn up when one starts looking history in the eyes.   And maybe one would like to rewrite history a little, to get a better part in the pageant.

              • Well history does indeed set precedents.

                In some cases good, in many more bad.

                There is an incredibly ugly truth in Steven Kings ' Storm of the Century' which I love/ hate to quote about human nature. Its uncomfortable. Its blunt and crude. Its negative and its disheartening. But in so many , many cases… so painfully true about the human condition. 

                Here is the video one more time.

                It is ugly ,… but so too can be human beings. ALL of them.

                Sometimes.

                You don't like knowing do you?

                • greywarshark

                  Thanks Katipo.  I will watch that one day when I am feeling on the up and up.   I can read about bad things happening in a regular detective story, but things get sorted out and there is a point where the ends are tied and settled.  

                  But some authors are too creepy, and I can see creepy stuff every day on the news.

                  • I like to face things head on.

                    And yes, 6 million odd Jews walking to gas chambers is creepy.

                    Especially the old black and white photos of young mothers with their young children, – or defenseless elderly being assigned to the left or the right , in which case to either their rapid or eventual doom ,… or perhaps the graves at the killing fields of the Pol Pot regime.

                    Or even the dead of the graves at  the battle of Visby for an Aperitif…

                    You see,… this is what humans are capable of doing to each other… and they are doing it to each other as we type, as we sleep, as we play sports and as we read bedtime story's to out children. This is humanity.

                    This is who we are.

                    A broken species of moral selectivity.

      • vto 13.4.2

        Yep Wild Katipo, aint that the truth. One lot of my ancestors were these Scots Highlanders who got nailed by the English Crown, another lot Ngati Kahungunu who also got nailed by the English Crown, and another lot a french minority who got nailed by the French Monarchy…

        … ffs fuck the monarchies fuck the crown, they been nailing me and my whanau since forever …

    • michelle 13.5

      Well the royals will be arriving soon are we going to pay 68k again for Camillas hairdresser like last time is this living in the past or does it only apply to us natives 

  13. mauī 14

    Hmm… does the chairman have a conflict of interest??

    With an SHA opportunity top of mind, the company [Fletcher’s] was already making contact with two local iwi and building an alliance. It also commissioned Clough and Asso­ciates to do an archaeological assessment. Te Warena Taua, chairman of the Makaurau Marae Maori Trust, did a cultural assessment for the company.

    https://www.noted.co.nz/planet/ihumatao-and-the-otuataua-stonefields-a-very-special-area/

    • Ad 14.1

      Nope.

      Happens on all major sites.

      • mauī 14.1.1

        The iwi representative doing cultural reports for the developer??

        • Ad 14.1.1.1

          Where have you been the last 30 years? Welcome to the RMA.

          • Dukeofurl 14.1.1.1.1

            Who best to know the cultural significance than the local iwi ? Should they have tried an Australian?

            • greywarshark 14.1.1.1.1.1

              If he was like Michael Savage he would do, but there aren't many any  Ozzies around like him, he was a one-off.

              • Interesting.

                Michael Joseph Savage was also a committed christian believer who sought to see those beliefs outworked in social policy. And aside from the fashionable tendency to be a 'christian ' in those times and latterly in the USA to procure the vote of the fictitious ' moral majority' ,… he actually believed in those values.

                Interesting also that it happened to coincide with the golden age of general worker prosperity , and egalistarianism in this country and the greater part of the west.

                Tell me , … just what has 30 years of neo liberalism and more than 50 years of secular humanistic indoctrination done other than see a callous disregard for those same workers and people if not whole family's now living on the streets?

                ' Born in Lust ,… turn to dust,… Born in Sin ,… come right in ' …

                STORM OF THE CENTURY

                • greywarshark

                  Too true WK   Now how can we improve the situation.  Our, NZs, Pilgrims Progress.

                  • What one could perhaps do is soften ones heart for a kick off,… and perhaps regard the one who made us instead of denying Him. To climb down off our high horses and admit that we are all brothers and sisters.

                    And that we were put on this earth to share and to bless.

                    Otherwise its as Stephen King said in that horrific movie…

                    ' Born in Lust , … turn to dust,… Born in Sin ?, … come right in '…

                    • greywarshark

                      Edit:
                      Well Jesus said Love me as I have loved you.   He must have had a hard time of it though – no wonder he had to go off into the desert to get away from everybody.    Worn out the poor bloke.  But if people just try and find the good in others, rather than looking at what sort of property they have to see if they are worth knowing, we might get a feel of what it is like to live in a virtual heaven.   Utopian maybe.   But nearly if you just try to keep a distance from the twistytwits.

                      You have quoted Stephen King – maybe it isn’t such a good idea to read a lot of him. Thinking of Brave New World and the way that Shakespeares dramas around moral themes formed the basis of the Savage’s education, ultimately warping his mind. Watch out for SK’s themes which seem also to be biblical and pervert morals rather than affirm them it seems.

                    • Yes I quote SK because so many on this site ,-  being aligned to Labour , – and yet secretly indulging in the extreme, are die hard communists and humanists in drag. Many of them like to  use the Trade Unions as a foil for their activity's. Or hide behind the ‘respectable’ business attributes of the free market while milking their fellow countrymen and women for all they are worth…

                      This is where they are ripe for the sending up of their humanistic /nilhilistic hypocrisy’s.

                      They have no answer barring the eternal , ongoing insanity of those who do not wish to learn or ever admit to the truth and are quite content to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results. Much like Darwinian evolutionists, Or much like humanistic politicians who believe and kid themselves that they only are the panacea to mankind's failings.

                      No , Stephen King is but a joke, … but the joke is this :

                      It is accurate and reflective , as all good storytellers should be.

                      The tragedy comes when it accurately reflects the truth. When we should have all been very aware of these truths for the last several millennia instead of constantly disregarding those truths and thinking we could ever get away from the certainty of cause and effect.

                      Even Einstein warned against that unfortunate reality.

                      I would lay even bets that Stephen King has / had a working knowledge of the Gospels of Jesus Christ. Otherwise he would have no foil with which to plot with and against.

                    • … die hard communists and humanists in drag.

                      Oh, have we humanists been insufficiently up front about it?  My apologies, and let's make it clear, then: the communists are right about religion, it's the opiate of the masses and no-one who values reason or rationalism should indulge in its pleasantly stupifying effects.

                      Glad we could clear that up.

                    • solkta

                      Clandestine humanists, we have reached a new level of silly here.

  14. michelle 15

    i get sick an tired of people telling us to stop living in the past when we have the British  royals we have Anzac day to name a few should we just forget all this happened like people are trying to forget us and our existence 

  15. Earle 16

    This fight is not about "just" this land.  

    It is about the second, or is it the third round, of settlements with Maori.   The first go could have seen most matters remedied. 

    The treaty of Waitangi was a hoax, and everyone knows this who has a shred of basic intellect.  

    The Treaty Settlement Procedures that have seen Maori Tribes receive a few "bauble" billions amongst the lot of them is equally a hoax, and is now being seen for what it is.  

    However the treaty settlements have been important in that they have awakened the sleeping warrior, and made him keen to fight for what is rightfully his.  What Maori lacks is cohesion, and leadership, and a realistic concept of what they can demand, then obtain, and ultimately achieve for their people singularly. 

    I feel that New Zealand needs a Maori High Council that takes over the role of the GG, but with teeth.  Parliament remains as it is, excepting that a number of seats go to Maori Party's, but with members only being able to sit for two terms, and no family relatives replacing serving members. 

    Unlike the GG, the MC would be able to send legislation back to parliament, or ultimately block it by an unanimous decision.  How that council was formed would be decided by a purely Maori body deciding on say three alternates to be put to all voters, with the ability to change the way that worked [choosing one of the say three initial alternates] amongst the Maori voters every two decades, again with the final vote going to the general election.

    This way Maori would have as much power as can be reasonably given back to them to control the destiny of their lands, that were robbed by a previous generation.  As for generational exoneration, I don't abide by this at all.  

    The  Maori get the land back if it was stolen, but such land has to have been subject to actual use, [not a high threshold] and not to have been shared amongst all persons as is the norm in a free and democratic society.  The past cannot be undone completely, but it can be remedied in a sensible and selfless manner if that is the right thing to do, no matter that the sky's will fall, as they did for Maori at their time of initial bereavement when the "CROWN" acted in the Monarch's interest, and stole it.  

    This would not need to be chaotic either, given that private land that remained with Crown, or was recently sold by Crown, was the focus.   To get this concept though the democratic process, private ownership of the family home, and assets would have to be safe FOREVER [excepting war, natural disaster, and famine]. In the end we do take ourselves too seriously.  But a wrong is a wrong, and trying to excuse wrongs, by pointing to other wrongs, is morally baseless and based on greed, and power. 

    I am a European male with a business background and have no care for any politician as they are all as dishonest and self interested as each other.  What I do care about is that an injustice is remedied as best as it can be.   This was not a long time ago. 

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