Is Key going where Gove’s gone?

Written By: - Date published: 1:33 pm, October 31st, 2011 - 77 comments
Categories: privatisation, schools, uk politics - Tags:

National has announced that the money gained from selling assets will go into a Future Fund and be spent on modernising schools. Is the sort of future they have in mind like the so-called “free schools” now being set up by the Conservatives in Britain under Education Minister Michael Gove?

Make no mistake, the right is very interested in the future of education. Their vision is for profit-making schools; they’d be better called the “free to make money schools” – another cash cow for private interests, who get to control the curriculum as well. Here is Fraser Nelson in the right-wing Spectator:

Gove originally envisaged taking a Swedish laissez-faire approach, granting a licence to almost any school which applies and leaving the market to judge if it was good enough. But he was put off by the experience of the Charter Schools in the US, where bad new schools came to threaten the whole project. So, of the 280 applications to open an English free school next year, 160 have been rejected and the rest asked to interview. Perhaps as few as 80 will be approved.

Yet Sweden, the lodestar for the whole project, started off with a few dozen schools and ended up with several hundred. The new schools quickly organised themselves into chains and set up wherever demand was strongest. But they did so because most were companies, operating for a profit. This idea, taboo only two years ago, has become a live argument inside the Conservative high command. Gove is reluctant, believing he is fighting on enough fronts without being accused of privatising schools. New schools face many obstacles, he says, most of them bureaucratic. The profit motive would not change that.

But increasingly, some of those around David Cameron believe that the only way Gove can accelerate his plan is to bring in profit-seeking chains like International English Schools and Cognita. And if it creates a political stink, so be it. The need for new schools is too great — and the prospect of the angry Mums’ Army at the ballot box too fearsome. But Nick Clegg, a great supporter of schools reform so far, has been given the power of veto — and has made clear he will use it to stop profit-making schools. This is where the argument may end, for now.

It would be the greatest irony but no surprise if our public assets were sold down by National in order to pay for private interests to get a stake in the school system here. We shouldn’t be under any illusions that we are just dealing with a short-term agenda.

77 comments on “Is Key going where Gove’s gone?”

  1. Campbell Larsen 1

    The writing is on the wall – talk of leak prone schools and earthquake prone schools (and i’m not talking about just in ch-ch) is all just an excuse to turn these freehold govt properties into debt laden PPP’s and to further engorge construction industry big boys already feasting on fat govt contracts.

  2. Agreed. I can’t see why National wouldn’t try something like this given that they’ve made such inclinations and plans pretty clear.

    The other aspect of this ‘ring fencing’ is that all the much-touted school modernisation ‘benefits’ amount to about $1.5bn, yet the expected haul is supposedly upwards of $5bn.

    Mana thinks its about irrigation

  3. Rusty Shackleford 3

    I think it’s a bit of a jump to link asset sales with school privatisation.

    On privatisation; what is the big deal? If someone else can do it for better and cheaper, then wouldn’t it be good for society to let them do it? Competition gives us ever improving and cheapening refrigerators, computers and cars. Why wouldn’t it do the same for education?

    • Draco T Bastard 3.1

      Because it can’t you moron. What produces good education is research, training and more than enough schools and teachers. A school is also a natural monopoly as it caters to a defined geographic area. Having two schools in the same area providing the same service just ups the costs for no benefit and so we’ll get one school that has monopoly profits instead if we go to private for profit schools. And, as we don’t a need to pay the profit it’s just another dead weight loss.

      The only point where competition might actually provide a benefit for the added cost (competition is always more expensive due to massive duplication) is in the research and that would be government funded anyway and done through the universities.

      • Rusty Shackleford 3.1.1

        DTB, I’m sitting in a public school. I can look out the window and see no less than six private learning institutes offering services such as English education, piano tutoring, math tutoring and there is even one that offers tuition in something called badok (some form of Asian chess?). Education means different things to different people. Therefore there is no more a “natural” monopoly in education than there is a monopoly on the choices of food we eat. Would a govt monopoly on food production and distribution lead to a good outcome?

        The govt can offer some minimum level if they want to. But, why do they have to crowd out the innovation that inevitably results from competition? The South Korean system shows that well, despite the public sector’s (read teachers union) repeated attempts to destroy that competition.

      • Bazar 3.1.2

        Lot of moron calling Draco, you seem stressed.

        Also schools often aren’t a natural monopoly, due to the fact that you get a choice of schools you can send your kids to.

        Perhaps in rural areas they are a natural monopoly due to low populations, but the blanket statement “schools are a natural monopoly” isn’t accurate.

        Also having the schools compete for grades could have many benefits for education, it could also have many problems as well. But that’s another issue closely tied to implementing “national standards”

        Finally, just so you don’t miss it, i’ll point out this reply. Just 1 weekend and its just about fallen off the front page

        National’s plan to screw workers some more

      • Ari 3.1.3

        You’re missing some other important factors that make for good education:

        Students that aren’t distracted by being hungry or problems at home.

        Parents are encouraged to show their kids that learning is important and valued.

        A good balance between assessment, which encourages rote learning and a brute-force hard work style, and unassessed work, which encourages creativity and innovation.

        Teachers that give all or at least most students a chance to succeed on their own terms.

        Staff and administrators who support teachers and help reduce their workload.

        Honestly, these things actually matter much more than class size does, and they’re far easier to make improvements to in comparison. Ironically, the best way to broadly raise school performance would be to fight poverty and ensure that all young kids are being fed. It’s easier to implement than “National Standards”, and it’ll result in far more dramatic leaps in performance. It will probably even improve things for some of the kids who don’t directly experience poverty, because teachers will need less time and energy to deal with putting out fires from the kids who do.

        Of course, National would never implement such a policy, because when their base talks about improving education, they mean in private schools.

    • McFlock 3.2

      Lol. It might. But when I look at a teacher, I’d like to see more than a used car dealer.

      Basically it relies, like most free market theory, on perfect information – I need to know that the slick commission sales person isn’t just selling me a pile of shit for as much as possible. Difficult to do with something as long term and abstract as an education. So the state needs to step in and provide a guaranteed minimum standard – which it can only do if it’s well funded.

      • Rusty Shackleford 3.2.1

        Govt bureaucrats have perfect info?

        The US system is extremely well funded, yet they aren’t getting any return in quality on the cash they have spent. I can’t really comment on the NZ system. Maybe it is cheap and perfect. I don’t know.

        • KJT 3.2.1.1

          No they do not.

          They should do what the Fins do (The worlds best performing education system) and leave it to Teachers. After making sure they are well trained and funded.

          Why follow the UK or USA model when our results are already much better than theirs.

          Sweden’s results are heading down the tubes since they adopted a market model.

          • Rusty Shackleford 3.2.1.1.1

            It would be preferable to let people themselves decide what they would like to get out of education. Choosing the amount and quality they deem fit. Teachers have proven themselves to be no better than the used car salesman alluded to before.

            • McFlock 3.2.1.1.1.1

              Poorly funded teachers expected to deal with large classes, malnourished children, and arbitrary reporting guidelines demanded by a cabinet minister against expert advice have proven themselves to be no better than the used car salesman alluded to before.”

              FIFY

              • Rusty Shackleford

                I don’t even really disagree with your editing. But, I would counter by saying that many of these problems stem from past attempts by govts to “fix” social problems.

                A. Poorly funded teachers (in what way?)

                B. expected to deal with large classes (large class size has nothing to do with student achievement. The stats back me up on that)

                C. malnourished children (well… I don’t think they aren’t getting enough to eat. I though we were in the midst of an obesity epidemic? However, I see your point. If kids are coming to school after eating the USDA approved “heart healthy” bowl of coacoa puffs in skim milk instead of “artery clogging” bacon and eggs, then it is no wonder they are starving for nutrients.)

                D. arbitrary reporting guidelines (agree. It should be up to parents and schools how they measure their kids achievement.)

                • Colonial Viper

                  B. expected to deal with large classes (large class size has nothing to do with student achievement. The stats back me up on that)

                  Funny how all the private schools advertise the benefits of having smaller class sizes, to the wealthy parental markets they tap into.

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    That isn’t really surprising. I’m sure as a student you preferred smaller classes. As a teacher, I prefer larger classes because I prefer to lecture than interact with the students. It also means that I (and by definition all teachers) make more money.

                    • McFlock

                      I note that none of your ascribed motivations for teachers wanting to increase class sizes include “quality of education”. Which is the entire problem – the motivations of sales staff are not to provide the best quality possible, but to get the most money. One does not necessitate the other.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      But, the same is true of public education. Funneling in more money doesn’t automatically mean better quality. The US experience attests to this.

                    • McFlock

                      “But, the same is true of public education. Funneling in more money doesn’t automatically mean better quality. The US experience attests to this”

                      Again, evidence?

                      But you slide, again. The motivation of increasing funding to public education is to provide better education. If it fails, then it is a failure. The motivation of a free-market teacher extracting more money from parents is to get more money from parents. Even if the kids learn shite, the teacher’s company is a success.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      http://reason.com/archives/2011/02/22/losing-the-brains-race

                      You’re assuming that families have zero ability to discern good or bad education. Little Billy can’t read? Kind of a dead give away.

                    • KJT

                      An education is a lot more than learning to read.

                      And I have already read Von Mises. The Austrian school of economics is as discredited by reality as the Chicago school.

                      NZ students, until recently, were capable of assessing economists. US ones are not taught to think.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Education means different things to different people. There isn’t a one size fits all model.

                      “The Austrian school of economics is as discredited by reality as the Chicago school.”
                      I’m not sure what your opinion has to do with the production and provision of education.

                      It would surprise me if the average NZ high schooler could name a contemporary economist.

                    • McFlock

                      “You’re assuming that families have zero ability to discern good or bad education. Little Billy can’t read? Kind of a dead give away.”

                      Again, bullshit. I’m asserting that by the time little Billy is that far behind the 8-ball that yeven your sales-teacher can’t convinvce mum and dad that it’s really Billy, oh and we can provide a teacher’s aide for him at little extra charge, it’s worse than a ministry hauling the principal over the coals because their clear and reasonable reporting requirements are falling short (NOT an arbitrary 11+ test). That way little Billy still learns to read in the first place.

                      You’re beginning to piss me off with your slides and your lies.

                    • McFlock

                      “The market gets stuff wrong all the time. It’s just on average cheaper, better and less violent/coercive than having a self appointed intellectual elite do the work for us.”

                      Once again you misrepresent the position (“self-appointed intellectual elite”? “People appointed by people overseen by parents on the BoT (or even by the BoT itself), and a ministry which reports to democratically-elected representatives”, more like) and religiously claim that your way is the better way “on average”. You provide no evidence for your claim, but slide in “on average” so that if someone provides a counter-example you can go “oh, but on average“.

                      You are so full of shit it’s not even funny, but I really think you might be completely oblivious to that fact.

                  • KJT

                    If you don’t know what economic thought has to do with the privatisation of education then you don’t know what the fuck you are talking about.

                    It is the Chicago schools myths you are constantly repeating.

                    Like the crap about the “market” always knows best.

                    Even they put caveats on that one.

                    Finland and New Zealand. State run. Best in the world. Gettit.

                    Why does NACT want to fix what ain’t broke.

                    And my son can name a contemporary economist.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      The market gets stuff wrong all the time. It’s just on average cheaper, better and less violent/coercive than having a self appointed intellectual elite do the work for us.

                    • Ari

                      The problem is that you need regulation to even HAVE a “market”. Without regulation your competition gets trampled all over by plutocrats, corruption, expansionists, vulgar marxists, basically anyone who can cheerlead destroying regulation and pretend it’s about free-market capitalism, one of the world’s most popular fictions.

                      And honestly, I’d settle for a “self-appointed intellectual elite” if it meant avoiding the terrible No Child Left Behind rubbish that the National Government is calling National Standards.

                • McFlock

                  A. As in being poorly paid, equipped with substandard equipment and so on.

                  B. Stats only back you up if you reference them.

                  C. Obesity != “not malnourished”. Coke is cheaper than milk in NZ. Check your local supermarket.

                  D. Schools and parents choosing reporting guidelines put it back into the territory of used car dealers, not to mention ruining consistency for employers and parents alike.

                  You are beginning to make unsubstantiated claims for which you alledge there s ample evidence. You might try referencing some. Preferably something competently peer reviewed, none of that miserly.org shite.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  C. malnourished children (well… I don’t think they aren’t getting enough to eat. I though we were in the midst of an obesity epidemic?

                  Obese and Malnourished

                  The Problem Is In The Food!

                  A recent analysis of a range of staple foods in Canada including potatoes, tomatoes, bananas, apples, onion, broccoli etc, was commissioned by The Globe and Mail and CTV news. The results were predictable to some and a shock to others. Let’s use potatoes as an example. This is what the analysis found:

                  Over the last 50 years the potato has lost:

                  100% of its Vitamin A
                  57% of its Vitamin C and iron.
                  28% of its Calcium.
                  50% of its riboflavin
                  18% of its thiamine

                  Problem? IMO, Factory farming and artificial fertilisers. Or, to put it another way, doing things cheaper to make a profit.

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    Erm, and feeding millions of people. It’s a shame potatoes aren’t as nutritious as the used to be .But, it is better than the alternative. I hope that businesses will turn to producing crops that have more vitamins.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      The point that you seem to miss is that millions of people are starving even though they have food.

                      But, it is better than the alternative.

                      In what way is it better than there being less people?

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      I fundamentally don’t believe less people = better. I find the whole notion to be distasteful.

                    • Draco T Bastard

                      I fundamentally don’t believe less people = better. I find the whole notion to be distasteful.

                      That’s because you’re stupid and believe the illogical people good, more people better paradigm of the religious idiots. I suppose I shouldn’t be surprised by this, you also believe the illogical free-market works.

                      The Earth cannot support the 7 billion humans presently inhabiting it. Scientific research indicates a maximum of between 1 and 2 billion.

                  • higherstandard

                    You link to a bodybuilding site trying to truck saps inot purchasing their vitamins as reliable evidence – you really are a drip.

                    http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2009/07/29/ajcn.2009.28041.abstract

        • McFlock 3.2.1.2

          “Govt bureaucrats” (aka “public servants”, but I guess that’s just an example of perspective shaping language) have a lot better info than a parent going around school open days or relying on league tables.

          The US system, among other issues, uses league tables and SAT to “evaluate” a child’s education. Which is idiotic, but that’s what you get. I also think you’ll find that some areas are better funded than others, leading to a “well funded” average but geographical or demographic inequalities.

          • Rusty Shackleford 3.2.1.2.1

            The planners have much less/worse information than every participant in the market have collectively.

            How can any group of people know what is best for every single person in any given market? There are a million different variations of outcome and it is impossible to know what they will be ahead of time. People working in their own self interest have a much better record of achieving mutually beneficial outcomes than top down central planning does.

            • McFlock 3.2.1.2.1.1

              Lol. Abandoned praising the US system, have you?

              “The planners have much less/worse information than every participant in the market have collectively.”
              Evidence?

              “How can any group of people know what is best for every single person in any given market? There are a million different variations of outcome and it is impossible to know what they will be ahead of time. People working in their own self interest have a much better record of achieving mutually beneficial outcomes than top down central planning does.”

              Evidence that this applies to education?
              Maybe like checking out OECD stats? Math competencies seem to put US a wee bit farther down the list than Norway or Finland. Have fun.

              • Rusty Shackleford

                You have to learn how to read. I expressly criticised the US system. It is expensive, calcified and not improving.

                “The planners have much less/worse information than every participant in the market have collectively.”
                Evidence?
                The 20th Century.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  You have to learn how to read. I expressly criticised the US system. It is expensive, calcified and not improving.

                  And yet it’s the US system that you want us to emulate.

                  “The planners have much less/worse information than every participant in the market have collectively.”
                  Evidence?
                  The 20th Century.

                  Um, no, the 20th century did not show that as the GFC proved.

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    Where have I said I want to emulate the US system? I don’t think I have advocated any particular country’s system. Only a movement towards more competition.

                    The great financial crisis was a failure of the planners. The Fed/central banking and fractional reserve banking caused the GFC. These are govt institutions.

                    • McFlock

                      You didn’t. In fact, you advocate nothing. But you held up the US system as disproving that “govt bureaucrats have perfect info”, on the grounds that the US system is “extremely well funded”, “yet they aren’t getting any return in quality on the cash they have spent.”.

                      An unsupported claim to support an assertion that nobody made. Honestly, you’re a complete waste of space, throwing around polemical statements and providing nothing more than slogans and semi-religious aphorisms akin to Mao’s little red book.

                      Oh, you sit an jerk off, but you never follow through put something in the cup.

                      I tried to be civil, by the way, but you’re the only one to whip it out for the circle-jerk. I think you might have misunderstood the event description – it’s a cocktail party.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      http://reason.com/archives/2011/02/22/losing-the-brains-race

                      Here is some data on the US experience.

                    • McFlock

                      FINALLY!

                      Now, a few questions – Was that public expenditure only, or public&private expenditure combined? Variance wasn’t included – have the teacher:student ratios improved across the board, or are more students in larger classes and a few students in smaller classes excel? What factors were used to control for system-gaming and teaching to the SATs rather than plain “teaching?

                      Because so far it’s as useful as the corellation someone demonstrated between the migration rate in swans over northern Europe and the human birth rate there. Granularity was too big and the analysis failed to take into acount some significant factors.

                    • KJT

                      Because more “competition” has worked so well in the USA.

                      The GFC was caused by the removal of regulation such as the Glass Steagal act and the proliferation of unsustainable financial Ponzi schemes this enabled.

                      And a financial system that cuts peoples wages, so the banks can then lend their earnings back to them at interest.

                      A lack of central control allowing the greedy free rein.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      The Fed. Have you heard of it?

                • Colonial Viper

                  Rusty you still promulgating the idea of rational, future knowing market actors?

                  Its bullshit, especially in todays gamed financial markets.

                  • Rusty Shackleford

                    Heavens, no. Individual actors in a free market do not know the future with any certainty. However, as a group (for a variety of reasons) they are far better at it than a self appointed intellectual elite.

                    Free people as a group make much better choices because there are consequences to their actions. A person who sets up a business and fails loses his shirt. A group of govt people who set out to do something just claim to be “under-funded” if they fail.

                    • McFlock

                      I love the way socialists are supposedly the collectivists and freemarketeers the individualists. FFS, socialists care if an individual starves. Not so the free market idealogue.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Mao, Stalin. They loved to starve people. Kim Jong Il.

                      The market does a pretty good job of feeding people. Central planning doesn’t.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Rusty there is no evidence which says that a group of market actors know any better than just one market actor.

                      There is no collective “ESP” or “collective intelligence” which occurs.

                      Example: every single major investment bank got fucked by their derivatives trading.

                      They were just as dumb in a group as they were individually.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      “…there is no evidence which says that a group of market actors know any better than just one market actor.”

                      Why have more market based economies flourished compared to more centrally planned ones?

                      Corporatism is a form of central planning as well. This being the case, is it any wonder the banks imploded and needed to be bailed out by the bankers?

                    • McFlock

                      Basil Zaharoff. Eric Prince. Sandline International. Monsanto. The Amazonian rain forest felling.

                    • McFlock

                      Nestle. Coca Cola. BHP.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      I’m not sure why you are randomly listing companies and people. I had to google Basil Zarahoff, and look what pops up as the second result. http://mises.org/daily/2687 A little bio by a man named John T. Flynn. Flynn’s book on FDR is a must read http://mises.org/resources/3429/The-Roosevelt-Myth

                    • McFlock

                      Just various merchants of death and/or shall we say “merchants who experienced periods of ethical scarcity”.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      FDR ordered crops be plowed under, pigs slaughtered and prices prevented from falling at a time of hunger and falling incomes. Better add him to the list.

                    • McFlock

                      Meh – FDR is debatable, what with providing jobs that the free market couldn’t. Mao’s a gimmee, I grant you. Killed as many people as GM and Krupp.

                    • Rusty Shackleford

                      Unemployment stayed in the double figures for much of FDR’s reign.

                      Krupp didn’t kill a single person, that I know of (he may have). He sold weapons to govts, who used them to kill people. A good argument for limiting govt if ever there was one. We want to keep men like Krupp and Basil Z as far away from centralised pockets of power as we possibly can.

                    • McFlock

                      “Unemployment stayed in the double figures for much of FDR’s reign. “

                      True that. The free market seriously fucked the economy.

                      “Krupp didn’t kill a single person, that I know of (he may have). He sold weapons to govts, who used them to kill people. A good argument for limiting govt if ever there was one. We want to keep men like Krupp and Basil Z as far away from centralised pockets of power as we possibly can.”

                      They sold weapons to damned near anyone, and made it a fuckload easier to kill millions.
                      Sandline? Prince? They sold/sell to anyone, too.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Rusty you’re full of it,

                      The market does a pretty good job of feeding people. Central planning doesn’t.

                      46M people in the US on Govt provided food stamps, that’s your standard of “pretty good” huh?

                      And it’ll get better you reckon if the Govt stops providing the food stamps because the market will provide?

            • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1.2.1.2

              People working in their own self interest have a much better record of achieving mutually beneficial outcomes…

              And where are those people getting their information from? Individuals working with no information are going to make real bad mistakes and yet that seems to be the system that you want to be in place. One which is completely irrational.

              …than top down central planning does.

              Only you RWNJs are talking about top down planning. You know, such top down planning as National Standards and league tables that allows the parents to decide what is best for the child. Everyone else is talking about a flexible educational environment that trains the teachers to recognise and respond to the needs of the child based upon practices that are researched and then passed out through a network of people and structures (otherwise known as a government department) set up to do that.

    • KJT 3.3

      Because.

      For the same reasons that competition has increased power prices.

      The costs of duplication of networks, advertising, profits and dividends, the race to be the cheapest for big customers loaded onto small consumers and the costs of rebuilding the infrastructure and human capability after the inevitable asset stripping and wage cutting

      • Rusty Shackleford 3.3.1

        There isn’t any real competition in the electricity market, it is heavily regulated.

        • KJT 3.3.1.1

          That is because privatisation/corporatism does not work for infrastructure.

          Even the pretense of competition is proving dysfunctional. Imagine how much worse it would be if we had unregulated power markets.

        • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.2

          Correct, there isn’t. That’s because it’s a natural monopoly.

          • Rusty Shackleford 3.3.1.2.1

            As I’ve pointed out before, simply saying “natural monopoly” doesn’t magically create a mandate for central planning. Using your logic, you could extend any market to the level of “natural” monopoly. There is a giant literature on this. We can go into it if you want to. I have the time.

            • Draco T Bastard 3.3.1.2.1.1

              State ownership != central planning.

              Especially if we have democracy where everyone has a say. In fact, you’re more likely to get central planning from your preferred capitalist ownership than from government ownership, ie, MS Windows.

              • Rusty Shackleford

                I guess we have differing definitions of central planning.

                • KJT

                  Most of us here advocate a Democracy, which is the antitheses of both Authoritarian Government Dictatorships like China and authoritarian rule by corporate money which is the USA.

                • Colonial Viper

                  World financial markets are centrally planned now mate. And thats the way they will stay if the powers that be have their way.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  Yeah, your definition is anything that works on the principal of people working together and not kowtowing to the capitalists is central planning while dictatorship in the form of private business is never central planning despite all those businesses being centrally planned.

            • Colonial Viper 3.3.1.2.1.2

              We can go into it if you want to. I have the time.

              Then why don’t you add some value mate. Instead of theorising shit.

  4. TonyP 4

    Of course the govt have a piece of the puzzle in place already for this with the new boss of the Ministry Of Education. An englishwoman who has experience in bringing about “change” in education including the implementation of the Free Schools. An appointmnet that has not had much press notice.

  5. randal 5

    kweewee is just another money drongo. ipredict he will lose this election and go back to where he came from.

  6. JS 6

    I expect a big attack on teachers and teacher unions if National wins another term. Non-Unionised privatised charter schools such as the US has, or the new system the UK has whereby the government intervenes if it doesn’t like a school and sacks the staff and gets a private company to run it all. This could happen to those schools brave enough to continue resisting national standards. Key has mentioned new school buildings as ‘assets’ but nothing about teaching and learning being important.

  7. Can I point out that since the international financial world is going to collapse the local house market is going to take an even bigger tumble and that all these rich builders who helped vote John Key in need some jobs while waiting it out and that this money is not going to be invested in schooling and opportunities for children to have a better education but much of it will be paid to these building companies and it will basically be job creation for building companies.
    Also I thought Bomber had an interesting take on the “Fund” they just came up with!

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      Declines in NZ house prices will occur but I reckon be very mild for the next few years, a few % reduction in nominal pricing p.a. combined with a few % loss p.a. eaten up by inflation.

      And in certain areas of Auckland etc. prices will keep going up and up as people seem to enjoy living like sardines.

      Situation changes if bank credit for mortgages dries up abruptly.

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    Yesterday Ihumātao's mana whenua reached a consensus that they would like their land back, and asked the government to negotiate with Fletcher's for its return. The government's response? Try and undermine that consensus, while talking about how doing anything would undermine existing Treaty settlements. The first is just more bad ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    9 hours ago
  • Protecting our history
    Its Suffrage Day, the 126th anniversary of women winning the right to vote (but not stand in elections) in New Zealand. And to celebrate, the government has bought Kate Sheppard's house in Christchurch:The government has bought Kate Sheppard's former home in Christchurch for more than $4 million. The Ilam villa ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    10 hours ago
  • Climate Change: Ostracising the coal-burners
    The UN climate summit is happening in new York next week, and unlike previous years, coal-burners and denier-states are not being invited to speak:Leading economies such as Japan and Australia will not be invited to speak at next week’s crunch UN climate change summit, as their continued support for coal ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    10 hours ago
  • Jojo Tamihere Salutes Herr Goff.
    Get Back Jojo! The elation in Mayor Phil Goff’s camp may be easily imagined as they watched social media light up in indignation at challenger John Tamihere’s "Sieg Heil to that" quip. Just when JT’s notoriously right-wing, sexist and homophobic stains were beginning to fade back into his ‘colourful’ past, ...
    12 hours ago
  • Hard News: A fun but flawed weed documentary
    Patrick Gower is good value when he's high. Not that I've ever, you know, got stoned with him. But in the second part of his documentary Patrick Gower on Weed, he does what you'd expect in a modern weed documentary and immerses himself – first with a doctor, then a ...
    21 hours ago
  • Candidate Survey: Western Bay of Plenty – Local Body Elections 2019
    We surveyed candidates on their attitudes to issues facing the Western Bay Region, find out what they think: “Closing the Gap” Tauranga, one of the area groups of Income Equality Aotearoa NZ Inc., has surveyed all candidates in the three local body elections to discover attitudes to some basic issues ...
    Closing the GapBy Tracey Sharp
    1 day ago
  • Project Nettie calls on scientists to defend biology
    Please spread widely, and sign, to support science and rationalism over the new irrationalism sweeping universities and institutions.  PROJECT NETTIE Sexual reproduction, the generation of offspring by fusion of genetic material from two different individuals, evolved over 1 billion years ago. It is the reproductive strategy of all higher animals ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 day ago
  • I’m glad I don’t live in Auckland
    Just when I was thinking that Palmerston North's mayoral race (which includes a convicted child molester / public wanker and a convicted child beater) was the worst in the country, Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere opened his mouth:Auckland mayoral candidate John Tamihere is being slammed for using the words "sieg ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • Index of Power Update, 2018-19: China #2
    We reprint below an article from the excellent website the Economics of Imperialism by Tony Norfield This is an update of the statistics for my Index of Power, using data for 2018-19 and discussing what a country’s ranking reflects. The major change is that China’s rank has shifted up and ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 day ago
  • Climate Change: A history lesson
    Why is New Zealand climate change policy so crap? The Herald this morning has a long article on the twists and turns of climate change policy in New Zealand [paywalled / depaywall script], which shows where we've been. The short version is that the government first began worrying about this ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 day ago
  • What the All Blacks Mean to Us
    The All Blacks have been, for more than a century, arguably the most successful International sports team in the world. But they are more than that; even for those Kiwis who are immune to the charms of rugby (and there are more than a few), the All Blacks are ambassadors ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 day ago
  • No one is born into the wrong body
    A short and incredibly powerful speech from a young lesbian woman. No one is born in the wrong body. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    2 days ago
  • Contempt
    Back in June, the UK Court of Appeal ruled that that country's continued arms sales to Saudi Arabia were unlawful. So you'd expect that the UK government stopped approving them, right?Of course not:The government has apologised for breaching a court ruling against the sale of weapons to Saudi Arabia that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Covering up the cover-up
    Yesterday NZDF officials were put on the stand about the lies they had told over Operation Burnham, making implausible claims that it was all a big mistake. But along the way, we learned they had already been put on the spot about it by a previous Defence Minister, who had ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Not as important as they think they are
    Farmers have been whining a lot lately, about the methane targets in the Zero Carbon Bill, about Canterbury's proposed nitrogen limits, and about the government's new proposals to stop them from shitting in our lakes and rivers. These policies are "throwing farmers under the tractor", they will force farmers off ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    2 days ago
  • Behind Every Good Woman Should Stand – Another Good Woman.
    Alone, Alone, All, All, Alone: To argue that the Prime Minister is the victim of her advisers’ failure to keep her informed may offer Jacinda some measure of exoneration – but only at the cost of casting her as a hopeless political ingénue. A star-dusted muppet, whose only purpose is to ...
    2 days ago
  • Poor quality, poorly educated kiddie ‘Journalists’ spreading fake news
    In times of hysteria about the “World coming to an end” and “rising sea levels” so-called ‘Journalists’ who can barely spell words longer than four letters are having a ball! Though the majority of the Public have worked out that manmade climate change is nothing short of pseudo-science, and the ...
    An average kiwiBy admin@averagekiwi.com
    2 days ago
  • Chris Trotter on the BFD
    I don't want to give pblicity to certain parts of the internet that are better left to fester in their own irrelevance (I know, a bit like this place) but the listing of Chris Trotter as a 'author' on Cameron Slater's spinoff website, the BFD requires some explanation.Now, I don't ...
    3 days ago
  • Sex is not a spectrum
    The text below is a Twitter thread by Heather Heying that explains the essence of sexual reproduction and it long evolutionary history. She is an evolutionary biologist and a “professor-in-exile” after she and her husband, Bret Weinstein, stood up to supporters of an enforced “Day of Absence” for white staff and teachers ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    3 days ago
  • Climate Change: Trees, aviation, and offsets
    With crunch time for new Zealand climate policy approaching, most of the New Zealand media have got on board with a global reporting effort to cover the issue. There's one strand of stories today about polling and what it shows about changing public attitudes to the crisis, but the strand ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • Pissing-Off The Israelis Is A High-Risk Strategy.
    Dangerous Foes: For those readers of Bowalley Road who feel disposed to dismiss any prospect of an Israeli destabilisation of New Zealand politics, the example of the United Kingdom repays close attention. Ever since the election of Jeremy Corbyn as leader of the British Labour Party, the Israelis have sanctioned, funded and ...
    3 days ago
  • Something to go to in Wellington
    Make It 16, the youth-led campaign to lower New Zealand's voting age, is holding an official campaign launch at Parliament this Friday from 16:30. If you'd like to attend, you can register using EventBrite here. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • A founding member responds to Peace Action Wellington
    by Don Franks It was a lovely sunny Wellington afternoon with blue skies above  the beaches.  In Courtenay Place, political activists packed out a stuffy upstairs room for an important meeting. The assembled pacifists, anarchists, communists and independent young radicals of Peace Action Wellington felt the need for a mission ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    3 days ago
  • “Mistakes and errors”
    Current and former NZDF top brass are being publicly grilled this week by the hit and run inquiry over their public responses to allegations of civilian casualties. Previously, they've claimed there were no casualties, a position which led them to lie to Ministers and to the public. Now, they're saying ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    3 days ago
  • “Homosexuality is same-sex attraction and relationships, not heterosexuals with delusions of gende...
    by Rafael D. Quiles (gender-critical gay man from Puerto Rico) The writing on the wall is right in people’s faces and people just don’t see it or don’t want to. What could actually possess a heterosexual male to want to feminize himself and claim that he is a lesbian? Because ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    4 days ago
  • Trump: “Where’s my favourite dictator?”
    From the Wall Street Journal:Inside a room of the ornately decorated Hotel du Palais during last month’s Group of Seven summit in Biarritz, France, President Trump awaited a meeting with Egyptian President Abdel Fattah Al Sisi. Mr. Trump looked over a gathering of American and Egyptian officials and called out in ...
    4 days ago
  • Magdalen Burns, 1983-2019, fighter for women’s liberation
    by the Redline blog collective At Redline we are very saddened to hear of the death of Magdalen Burns who passed away on the morning of Friday, September 13 (British time). Magdalen was a great fighter for the rights of women in general and lesbian women in particular, a defender ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    5 days ago
  • Parliament and the Executive
    The Brexit issue has certainly brought with it a series of apparently difficult constitutional issues, many of them concerning the respective roles of the executive and parliament. Most of them arise because of the unwillingness of MPs, despite their professions to the contrary, to be bound by a constitutional rarity ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    5 days ago
  • The Abigail Article; Martyn Bradbury’s Article, and My Response
    . . This blogpost is different to my usual format of reporting on issues… Since July 1011, I have blogged on a variety of political issues; near always political and/or environmental; mostly highly critical of the previous National Government. Other issues included Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands and repression of ...
    Frankly SpeakingBy Frank Macskasy
    5 days ago
  • Police will have to wear silly Buckingham Palace hats from now on, says Police Minister
    Those close to the Police Minister believe the initiative may be the result of Nash “seeing a great deal” on AliExpress. In a move that comes seemingly out of nowhere, Police Minister Stuart Nash announced this afternoon that he expects all frontline staff to don bearskin hats, famously worn by ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    6 days ago
  • A sensible crackdown
    The government has released its Arms Legislation Bill, containing the second tranche of changes to gun laws following the March 15 massacre. And it all looks quite sensible: a national gun register, higher penalties for illegal possession and dealing, tighter restrictions on arms dealers and shooting clubs, and a shorter ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • California bans private prisons
    Private prisons are a stain on humanity. Prison operators explicitly profit from human misery, then lobby for longer prisons terms so they can keep on profiting. And in the US, prison companies run not only local and state prisons, but also Donald Trump's immigration concentration camps. Faced with this moral ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • Why PPPs are a bad idea
    When National was in power, they were very keen on Public-Private Partnerships (PPPs) - basicly, using private companies to finance public infrastructure as a way of hiding debt from the public. They were keen on using them for everything - roads, schools, hospitals. But as the UK shows, that "service" ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    6 days ago
  • A Movement That No Longer Moves.
    Moving And Shaking: There was a time when people spoke matter-of-factly about the “labour movement” – a political phenomenon understood to embrace much more than the Labour Party. Included within the term’s definition was the whole trade union movement – many of whose members looked upon the Labour Party as ...
    6 days ago
  • NZ ‘left’ politically embracing extreme postmodernism
    by Philip Ferguson Much of the left, even people who formally identify as marxists, have collapsed politically in the face of postmodern gender theory of the sort pioneered by American philosopher Judith Butler. For Butler even biological sex is socially constructed. “If the immutable character of sex is contested, perhaps ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    7 days ago
  • The obvious question
    The media is reporting that the (alleged) Labour party sexual assaulter has resigned from their job at Parliament, which means hopefully he won't be turning up there making people feel unsafe in future. Good. But as with everything about this scandal, it just raises other questions. Most significantly: why the ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • The moment I found out that you found out, I acted swiftly
    By Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern I am every bit as angry as you are. I am every bit as disappointed as you must be. The people with power, oversight and the ability to do something about these processes within the Labour Party should be ashamed. Whoever those people are, I ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • This is why people hate property developers
    Property developers think there is an "oversupply" of houses in Auckland:High turnover rates and falling prices may be a sign that there are too many new houses going in to some parts of Auckland, commentators say. [...] Property developer David Whitburn said there was a "bit of an oversupply" in ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Australia to Pacific: “Fuck you, you can all drown”
    World leaders are meeting in New York in two weeks for the 2019 Climate Action Summit, where they are expected to announce new and more ambitious targets to stop the world from burning. But the Australian Prime Minister won't be there, despite being in the USA at the time:Scott Morrison ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Implausible ignorance
    Labour Party president Nigel Haworth resigned yesterday over the party's sexual assault scandal. But while that's good news, its unlikely to take away the stench of a coverup. Because according to Paula Bennett in Parliament yesterday, pretty much everyone in the Prime Minister's office was involved as well:I have been ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Labour’s Fatal Flaw.
     Two-Faced? Labour insiders' commitment to the neoliberal status quo puts them at odds with their party’s membership; its trade union affiliates; and a majority of Labour voters, but this only serves to strengthen the perception they have of themselves as a special elite. Among the lesser breeds, they’ll talk up a ...
    1 week ago
  • Ten reasons the Tories do NOT want an election
    There has been a lot of talk about Boris Johnson wanting an election, and he has blustered with great gusto about 'chicken' Jeremy Corbyn refusing one, but I think there are many reasons why he is secretly glad he has been refused the opportunity:The Tories are an utter rabble,tearing themselves ...
    1 week ago
  • Prorogation Illegal, rule Scottish judges
    Scottish appeal court judges have declared that Boris Johnson’s decision to suspend parliament in the run-up to the October Brexit deadline is unlawful. The three judges, chaired by Lord Carloway, Scotland’s most senior judge, overturned an earlier ruling that the courts did not have the powers to interfere in the prime ...
    1 week ago
  • Let me explain what I meant by Everyday New Zealanders
    By Simon Bridges. The following is a press release from the office of Simon Bridges, leader of The National Party. Key ora, New Zealand. Happy Maori Language Week. Look, I’m writing to you today because I want to clear something up. There’s been a lot of kerfuffle around some things ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Yes, the SIS is subject to the Public Records Act
    I understand there's some stuff going round about how the SIS "was removed from the list of public offices covered by the Public Records Act in 2017". The context of course being their records derived from US torture, which will be disposed of or sealed. The good news is that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • An evidence-based discussion of the Canadian fluoride/IQ study
    Dr. Christopher Labos and Jonathan Jarry discuss the recent Canadian fluoride/IQ research. They provide an expert analysis of the paper and its problems. Click on image to go to podcast. The critical debate about the recent ...
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: Australia in denial
    Australia is burning down again, and meanwhile its natural disaster minister is denying climate change:Australia’s minister responsible for drought and natural disasters, David Littleproud, has said that he doesn’t “know if climate change is manmade”. Clarifying earlier comments that the question is “irrelevant” when considering the Coalition government’s response to ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Philippines activist speaking on the Duterte tyranny
    Auckland Philippines Solidarity is excited to host Professor Judy Taguiwalo for a speaking tour of NZ in September. She is a well-known activist in the Philippines and was a political prisoner under the Marcos dictatorship. Professor Taguiwalo briefly served as a Cabinet member under President Duterte but was forced from ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Disgust
    I have no special insights to offer on the Labour sexual assault coverup. All I have is disgust. Disgust that an organisation could fail its people so badly. Disgust that they punished the victims rather than the perpetrator. Disgust that its party hacks are apparently blaming the victims for demanding ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speak Up for Women calls out Greens’ censorship
    This open letter to the Green Party was penned after an opinion piece by Jill Abigail, a feminist and founding member of the party, was censored by the Greens’ leadership. (Redline has reprinted her article here).The intolerance of the Green Party leaders and their acceptance of the misogyny of gender ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Member’s Day: End of Life Choice, part 3
    Today is a Member's day, and David Seymour's End of Life Choice Bill continues its slow crawl through its committee stage. They're spending the whole day on it today, though the first hour is likely to be spent on voting left over from last time. After that they'll move on ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Flight to Los Angeles turned back after passengers decide they don’t want to go anymore
    An ambitious plan to fly to Los Angeles petered out into a brief sight-seeing trip and a desire to return home and get some sleep before work tomorrow. Air New Zealand has confirmed a flight to Los Angeles last night was turned back about a quarter of the way into ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Indigenous Futures: defuturing and futuring – an analytical framework for policy development?
    There appears to be consensus – by omission – that the concept of indigenous futures should be accepted at face value. So I scavenged the internet to see if I could locate an academic descriptor or a framework around how we think about it as a concept, and whether it ...
    EllipsisterBy Ellipsister
    1 week ago
  • Cadbury rumoured to be releasing the Pineapple Trump
    Here’s another novelty chocolate to shove in your gob, New Zealand Cadbury could be seeking to make itself great again with a rumoured new release: Pineapple Trumps, a spin on its classic chocolate-encased pineapple treat and do-it-yourself tooth remover. The global confectionery manufacturer and bumbling “before” character in an infomercial, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • The coming resource war.
    During my time in the Pentagon I had the privilege of sitting down with military leaders and defence and security officials from a variety of Latin American nations. Sometimes I was present as a subordinate assistant to a senior US defence department official, sometimes as part of a delegation that ...
    KiwipoliticoBy Pablo
    1 week ago
  • Māori Language Week with The Civilian
    Kia ora, Aotearoa. It’s that magical time of year. Te Wiki o te Reo Māori. In English, the week that frightens talk radio. As you probably know by now, all your favourite media outlets are participating, some more successfully than others. Stuff has changed its name to Puna for the ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    1 week ago
  • Will Horizons act on climate change?
    Local body elections are coming up next month. And it looks like all Palmerston North candidates for Horizons (the Manawatu-Whanganui Regional Council) want to take action on climate change:Climate change is set to be a key issue in Palmerston North for the next three years if those wanting to get ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • BORA reform is stalled
    Eighteen months ago, the government promised to strengthen the Bill of Rights Act, by explicitly affirming the power of the courts to issue declarations of inconsistency and requiring Parliament to formally respond to them. So how's that going? I was curious, so I asked for all advice about the proposal. ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Corbyn and Brexit
    As the Brexit saga staggers on, the focus is naturally enough on the Prime Minister and his attempts to achieve Brexit “do or die”. But the role played by the Leader of the Opposition is of almost equal interest and complexity. The first problem for Jeremy Corbyn is that he ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • A ditch for him to die in
    Last week, English Prime Minister Boris Johnson boldly declared that he would rather die be dead in a ditch than delay Brexit. Unfortunately for him, the UK parliament accepted the challenge, and promptly dug one for him. The "rebellion bill" requires him to ask for and secure yet another temporary ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Warning! Warning! Danger Jacinda Ardern! Danger Marama Davidson! Warning!
    Lost In Political Space: The most important takeaway from this latest Labour sexual assault scandal, which (if I may paraphrase Nixon’s White House counsel’s, John Dean’s, infamous description of Watergate) is “growing like a cancer” on the premiership, is the Labour Party organisation’s extraordinary professional paralysis in the face of ...
    1 week ago
  • Union solidarity with Ihumatao land occupation
    by Daphna Whitmore Every Sunday for the past two months unionists from First Union, with supporters from other unions, have set out to the Ihumatao land protest, put up gazebos and gas barbeques, and cooked food for a few hundred locals and supporters who have come from across the country. ...
    RedlineBy Daphna
    1 week ago
  • Climate Change: The wrong kind of trees?
    Newsroom today has an excellent, in-depth article on pine trees as carbon sinks. The TL;DR is that pine is really good at soaking up carbon, but people prefer far-less efficient native forests instead. Which is understandable, but there's two problems: firstly, we've pissed about so long on this problem that ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • No freedom of speech in Turkey
    Canan Kaftancioglu is a Turkish politician and member of the opposition Republican People's Party (CHP). Like most modern politicians, she tweets, and uses the platform to criticise the Turkish government. She has criticised them over the death of a 14-year-old boy who was hit by a tear gas grenade during ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Speaker: Tadhg Stopford: Why I’m standing for the ADHB
    Hi there, just call me Tim.We face tough problems, and I’d like to help, because there are solutions.An Auckand District Health Board member has nominated me for as a candidate for the ADHB, because her MS-related pain and fatigue is reduced with hemp products from Rotorua.  Nothing else helped her. If I ...
    1 week ago
  • Good little vassals
    The Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security has published their report on whether the SIS and GCSB had any complicity in American torture. And its damning. The pull quote is this:The Inquiry found both agencies, but to a much greater degree, the NZSIS, received many intelligence reports obtained from detainees who, ...
    No Right TurnBy Idiot/Savant
    1 week ago
  • Who Shall We Turn To When God, And Uncle Sam, Cease To Defend New Zealand?
    Bewhiskered Cassandra? Professor Hugh White’s chilling suggestion, advanced to select collections of academic, military and diplomatic Kiwi experts over the course of the past week, is that the assumptions upon which Australia and New Zealand have built their foreign affairs and defence policies for practically their entire histories – are ...
    1 week ago
  • The Politics of Opposition
    For most of the time I was a British MP, my party was out of government – these were the Thatcher years, when it was hard for anyone else to get a look-in. As a front-bencher and shadow minister, I became familiar with the strategies required in a parliamentary democracy ...
    Bryan GouldBy Bryan Gould
    1 week ago
  • More expert comments on the Canadian fluoride-IQ paper
    The Green et al (2019) fluoride/IQ is certainly controversial – as would be expected from its subject (see If at first you don’t succeed . . . statistical manipulation might help and Politics of science – making a silk purse out of a sow’s ear). Anti-fluoride campaigners have been actively promoting it ...
    2 weeks ago
  • The return to guerrilla war in Colombia
    by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh On August 29th a video in which veteran FARC (Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia) commander Iván Márquez announced that they had taken up arms again was released. There was no delay in the reaction to it, from longtime Liberal Party figure and former president Uribe, for ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Air New Zealand identifies this enormous plot of unused land as possible second airport site
    Air New Zealand couldn’t believe its luck that this seemingly ideal piece of real estate had so far gone entirely unnoticed. Air New Zealand’s search for a site to build a second Auckland Airport may have made a breakthrough this afternoon, after employees scanning Google satellite imagery spotted a huge, ...
    The CivilianBy admin
    2 weeks ago
  • Redline on the Labour Party
    No-one on the anti-capitalist left in this country today puts forward a case that Labour is on the side of the working class.  There are certainly people who call themselves ‘socialist’ who do, but they are essentially liberals with vested interests in Labourism – often for career reasons. Nevertheless, there ...
    RedlineBy Admin
    2 weeks ago

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