Israel’s latest atrocities

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1. Janice 1

   6 April 2024 at 10:23 am

   Joe Biden has to keep supporting Israel in order to retain the Jew vote in the US. Similar in the UK I guess.
   • Psycho Milt 1.1

     6 April 2024 at 10:37 am

     They were killed by deliberate decisions to target them despite their having previously obtained IDF approval and travelling in a supposed safe zone.

     Another fine example of the triple-standard that gets applied to Israel. People of the left, please take the concept of leftist antisemitism seriously when posting about this conflict.

     In this case, keep in mind that militaries sometimes kill their own personnel in combat through deliberate, mistaken decisions to target them due to human error. Other people in a combat zone aren't somehow magically exempt from suffering the same fate.
     • SPC 1.1.1

       6 April 2024 at 10:59 am

       They shot dead 3 unarmed men with a white flag, who were escaped hostages.

       An occupation army with poor discipline might cover it, but the number of times aid delivery and receipt is taken out – forcing aid groups to withdraw from service is leading to suspicion of deliberation to assist in dahiya (collective punishment to coerce Hamas to hand over hostages).

       The thing is, dahiya has never worked before in managing Hamas (they use the collective punishment to marginalise Israel).

       So at this stage the entire world is willing to unite with the ICJ and demand compliance with aid delivery.

       While Trump wants a fast military defeat of Hamas (overlooking the hostages), the population is facing the consequences of lack of food.
       • Psycho Milt 1.1.1.1

         6 April 2024 at 12:51 pm

         The escaped hostages was another good example. Leftist analysis consistently treats Hamas as a given – Israel has responsibilities, intent, accountability etc, but Hamas doesn't, it's just a natural phenomenon like an earthquake or a cyclone. No point in asking a fault line to be better-behaved, after all.

         So, when three unarmed escaped hostages with a white flag are shot by Israeli soldiers, leftists tell us it must be poor discipline, trigger-happy murderers, the lethal nature of White colonialism etc. The possibility isn't even considered that these soldiers have opponents and those opponents might have given them excellent reasons not to trust a white flag or that people who appear to be unarmed actually are unarmed, or to believe that surely no-one would be so keen to kill them that they'd sacrifice their own lives in the process.
         • SPC 1.1.1.1.1

           6 April 2024 at 3:57 pm

           The soldiers did not know there might be hostages in the area. Information to that effect was not passed on to them.

           Civilians and Hamas fighters had surrendered earlier without being shot.

           https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-12-21/ty-article/.premium/investigation-into-killing-of-israeli-hostages-by-idf-reveals-a-string-of-errors-and-flaws/0000018c-890c-d60e-afdf-ed0ec51e0000

           https://archive.li/eqiDO
         • lprent 1.1.1.1.2

           6 April 2024 at 7:17 pm

           Israel has responsibilities, intent, accountability etc, but Hamas doesn't…

           Hamas are not a nation-state. They are a local political party and civilian militia in a occupied region that is not part of any state.

           While the State of Palestine has been somewhat recognised. Technically Hamas is effectively in rebellion against teh authority of the local civilian government that Israel allows in the directly military occupied West Bank.

           Hamas haven't signed up to the same conventions that Israel has, because the state of Gaza isn't recognised by anyone.

           Which means that effectively you are talking complete nonsense..

           The possibility isn't even considered that these soldiers have opponents and those opponents might have given them excellent reasons not to trust a white flag or that people who appear to be unarmed actually are unarmed, or to believe that surely no-one would be so keen to kill them that they'd sacrifice their own lives in the process.

           That just means that soldiers should take reasonable precautions against possible civilian targets. Holding them at range is quite permissible. Making them strip partially or even fully at range is also permissible. Telling them not to approach and firing if they do is also permissible.

           What is not permissible is what these arseholes of the IDF purporting to be soldiers actually did.

           You are talking about 3 shirtless men at waving parts of their shirts and at a minimum of 20 metres range away (actually closer to 50m according to Haaretz accounts) – shouting in Hebrew and trying to surrender to concealed armed soldiers behind cover.

           A sniper from a longer range shot the first two because he didn't 'recognise' the white cloth being waved. Which really means that the sniper was half blinded and shouldn't have been firing in the first place. If you can't see a clear target you wait until you can. You also don't fire unless you see a threat to your company – in this case that wasn't the case.

           It could just be that they were really poorly trained – at this point I'd believe almost any horror story about how shit the IDF training is. It shows in how many screwups that they seem to 'accidently' perform.

           Or under orders to unlawfully kill everyone in an area where civilians were present – which would be a war-crime in almost any army. Probably the latter..

           According to the The Jerusalem Post, a preliminary investigation found IDF instructions to soldiers in Shuja'iyya/Shejaia were to open-fire on any man of fighting age who approached them.[22]

           Sure shooting the first two could have been a mistake by badly trained cowards who were so badly trained that they had no fucking idea of how little risk there was even if the hostages had bricks of C4 in their jockstraps.

           After being shot, Haim ran into a nearby building and shouted for help in Hebrew. The battalion commander then ordered the troops to hold their fire, while Haim was persuaded to exit the building but when he did so 15 minutes later,[11] a soldier acting against the battalion commander's order shot and killed him.[12][13]

           Haaretz reported that the IDF soldiers followed the third hostage into the building and shot him dead because "they believed that it was a Hamas terrorist attempting to lure them into a trap".[14] Yediot Ahronot reported that Israeli soldiers had called for the third hostage to come out of the building he was hiding in, and then shot him when he reappeared.[15]

           FFS: don't you ever read anything? The Haaretz articles in particular went into great detail about the differing accounts. The audio files and translated transcript are available.

           Needless to say, none of the soldiers were brought before a military tribunal despite having apparently obeyed a unlawful command to shoot possible civilians on sight – which is a war-crime. Nor for disobeying the subsequent orders of the officer on the ground are executing an obviously unarmed

           In fact, so far in this war, no IDF soldiers have bee brought forward in a court-martial that I am aware of for killing civilians despite many similar situations having happened. Nor have any been prosecuted for torturing civilians.

           Also there appears to be a widespread campaign by IDF snipers to kill children from range with high velocity weapons, umm where did I put that link to the BBC investigation.
     • joe90 1.1.2

       6 April 2024 at 12:14 pm

       Another fine example of the triple-standard that gets applied to Israel.

       Indeed. Aid workers and journalists have been killed in Afghanistan, the CAR, the DRC, Ethiopia, Mexico, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Somalia, South Sudan, Ukraine, etc, and not a sausage.

       But when Jews do the killing….

       //
     • lprent 1.1.3

       6 April 2024 at 4:22 pm

       What "triple-standard". What kind of a hypocritical fuckwit are you? I presume that this is some kind of meaningless meme by the incestuous group speak of the right wing inbreds.

       Israel as a foreign country is in occupation on Gaza. It is hunting for a resistance movement. As such it is restricted to the laws governing such warfare. One of those is taht they may not fire on civilians without sufficent evidence

       In this case, keep in mind that militaries sometimes kill their own personnel in combat through deliberate, mistaken decisions to target them due to human error

       Sure and in any sane military, which clearly the IDF is not, this results in full-blown inquiries and usually eventually to court-martial. Otherwise soldiers tend to wards fragging offenders as a way of reducing friendly fire issues.

       The IDF appears to never do anything that is actually substantive at reducing mistakes in their obviously poorly trained troops. Otherwise there wouldn't be a widespread culture of 'mistakes'.

       You can see why anyone in a position to report on such mistakes against civilians seem to have a IDF target placed on their back and on anywhere that they are likely to be. Aid workers, journalist on the ground, medics and doctors, …. Hell the IDF doesn't even let the Israeli journos into the safe zones for more than a quick tour long guided tour of a bit of suspect evidence. Certainly don't let any war correspondents in to talk to locals.

       BTW: if you want to imply that I or anyone else are involved in antisemitism without any evidence whatsoever then don't comment here again. I will kick your inbred bigoted ignorant arse out of here and then look at how to leverage legal position on your usage of hate speech.
       • Psycho Milt 1.1.3.1

         6 April 2024 at 5:17 pm

         Certainty that your opinions are facts and contempt for people who don't share them might feel good, but they don't help persuade anybody of anything.

         I used to see Israel the same way you do, until recently. Like most on the left, I shared the delusion that Israel only needed to withdraw behind its 1967 borders and 'allow' the Palestinians a state for there to be peace in the region. Hamas have helpfully shown me how wrong that was. I no longer share your view of an "occupation" and have never shared your view of the competence of the IDF.

         "Triple standard" = not just holding the Israeli govt to a higher standard than other govts in the region but holding it to a higher standard than other liberal democracies. No need to respond, I'm aware you'll see it as exactly the "meaningless meme" you were thinking of. Obviously, I disagree.
         • lprent 1.1.3.1.1

           6 April 2024 at 5:48 pm

           Ah exactly what standard do the other "liberal democracies" follow? There is a nice summary here that should be simple enough for even a dumbarse civilian like you to understand in the section "The rules of war".

           https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/06/28/621112394/the-rules-of-war-are-being-broken-what-exactly-are-they

           These are signed up to not only by liberal democracies like New Zealand or Australia, but even by republics like the US and Israel.

           When you look at Gaza, there isn't one of these that the IDF hasn't repeatably and documented violating.

           Also your triple standard only holds two. You can’t even state your stupid memes right. I guess that is what happens when you parrot RealityCheck Radio rather than using your brain and thinking about them.
           • Psycho Milt 1.1.3.1.1.1

             6 April 2024 at 7:29 pm

             Also your triple standard only holds two.

             That's not how it works. Holding Israel to a higher standard than other govts in the region = double standard. Holding them to a higher standard even than other liberal democracies = triple standard. If you're going to accuse people of stupidity, at least make sure beforehand that you understand what you're talking about.

             And the triple standard doesn't refer to the standards governments follow, it refers to the standards that journalists, politicians and social media users with no skin in the game apply to Israel but not other countries.
             • lprent …

               12 April 2024 at 10:35 pm

               Yeah – so show me a credible source that says that this how a triple standard is defined.

               As far as I can see it is a meme that sounds cool for moronic fucktard posturing. Essentially a meaningless blathering by fools who are too lazy to use their brains to research anything. Which is what I found when I researched it.

               In this case your particular meaning of triple standard appears only in a number of propaganda outlets for the Israelis and their supporter organisations in the west. For instance this, this, and this. It isn't a widespread understanding. It is just something that the modern Israelis and their allies use to cover their rape of Palestine and Palestinians.

               I didn't realise that you were quite such a sucker for parrot for Israel propaganda.

               Turn it around. What does it say about a nation that was founded on the underlying principle of self-determination, traumatised by a genocide, purported democracy, a public commitment to human rights, and who hasn't managed to (or even made much of an effort to) provide those same things for the native population that they ethnically cleansed in 1948 while forming their state.

               Israel has had full and direct control of the remainder of Palestine that wasn't part of their original partition since 1967. They have had undisputed legal control of those territories. What the IDF and Israeli settlers have been notable for is that they use that control mostly for killing Palestinians, stealing land from them by means of laws made without representation in the Knesset, and unlawful occupations.

               The nation that is now killing unarmed civilians in mass because a resistance movement against their occupation has been doing exactly what Israeli soldiers who wound up in the IDF did against occupiers. Fighting back.

               More importantly the IDF has little to no discrimination nor precision. They just used the M84 bombs to level buildings – mostly on the basis (as far as I can find out) of occupants having dissed them on cellphones. That a very dumb targeting AI translated into "hotbed of Hamas activists and militants". In other words Israel bombs people for simply saying that their lazy occupiers since 1967 are arseholes.

               Personally I don't describe Israelis with meaningless phrases. I describe them as lazy oversensitive arseholes and complete hypocrites who are rapidly moving towards a final solution of genocide.

               The settlers are brutal thugs and thieves like the Brownshirts in the 1930s doing a redistribution of unearned wealth into their own pockets.

               The IDF is no different than SS who cleared the resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto in 1943, and probably will wind up as no different from the guards at the death camps.

               If you find this insulting, then by all means show me anywhere in the last two decades where Israel as a nation has made any meaningful movement towards Palestinian self-determination. All I see is the Israeli cascade towards becoming a nation full of people guilty of genocide.

               And all you do is wave a meaningless phrase around like a inadequate loincloth over your lazy virtue signalling. You really are a arsehole.

               BTW: I found about 15 quite different meanings for a "triple standard" in less than 2 pages of google search. I hardly think
     • mickysavage 1.1.4

       6 April 2024 at 7:02 pm

       Another fine example of the triple-standard that gets applied to Israel. People of the left, please take the concept of leftist antisemitism seriously when posting about this conflict.

       I just can't get past the body count and the wanton destruction of hospitals and homes. Whatever Hamas did does not justify what is happening.
       • Psycho Milt 1.1.4.1

         6 April 2024 at 7:40 pm

         The body count is a propaganda claim by a terrorist group, and it would be useful to consider why the invading force is treating hospitals, schools etc as military installations of the defending force. Hint: it's not because Israelis have some bizarre innate hostility to hospitals and schools.
         • adam 1.1.4.1.1

           6 April 2024 at 10:53 pm

           I call bullshit.

           Then why were the Churches, and the Christian hospital destroyed?

           https://www.opendoorsuk.org/news/latest-news/israel-gaza-news/

           Your logic is flawed Psycho Milt.

           Because Hamas is not, nor has it ever been associated with the Church.
           • Psycho Milt 1.1.4.1.1.1

             7 April 2024 at 7:25 am

             We don't even know which side destroyed Christian buildings, let alone why (if there even was a 'why', ie it may have been accidental – see your linked article).

             However, we do know that Hamas, an Islamist terrorist group, is the government of Gaza, so Christians don't get any say in what Hamas does in proximity of their buildings.
       • Mikey 1.1.4.2

         7 April 2024 at 12:34 pm

         If hammass is using the populace as human shields and basing or concealing its fighters in hospitals, then that absolutely justifies what is happening.
2. SPC 2

   6 April 2024 at 10:46 am

   The building destroyed was the consulate by the embassy building.

   That the target was the Embassy of a third nation which was also not at war with Israel makes this much worse.

   This is the nation that arms Hizbollah.

   Not the usual diplomatic staff.

   Brigadier General Mohammad Reza Zahedi, a senior commander in the Quds Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps (IRGC) and his deputy General Mohammad Hadi Hajriahimi were killed in Monday’s attack, the IRGC said in a statement.

   https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/4/2/attack-on-iran-consulate-in-damascus-what-do-we-know

   Quds Force …

   After the Iran-Iraq War ended in 1988, the IRGC was reorganized and the Quds Force was established as an independent service branch. It has the mission of liberating "Muslim land", especially al-Quds, from which it takes its name—"Jerusalem Force" in English.

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

   This mentions use of AI by the IDF.

   https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/us-looking-report-that-israel-used-ai-identify-bombing-targets-gaza-2024-04-04/
3. Tiger Mountain 3

   6 April 2024 at 11:25 am

   I am not immune, just frustrated at what to do from our distance. The IDF are filthy butchers and the Knesset loaded to the gunwales with psychopaths seemingly determined to eradicate Palestinians in Gaza as much as the Nazis did jews in the WWII Warsaw Ghetto.

   BDS hard, check those labels, ban any Israeli business from your life–Kebab shop or whatever, donate to Kia Ora Gaza who are joining an aid flotilla–and attend weekly Pro Palestine solidarity actions.
   https://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com

   Israel should be wound up as a failed state full stop.
   • SPC 3.1

     6 April 2024 at 11:34 am

     Humanity is not becoming those you accuse of inhumanity.
   • Psycho Milt 3.2

     6 April 2024 at 1:00 pm

     As always, in a conflict between a liberal democracy and murderous totalitarianism, the left is well-populated with people who back the murderous totalitarianism.

     [lprent The right is well stocked on fuckwits who like to generalise based in single instances.

     Obviously to follow this, in reverse I declare that Pyscho Milt is guilty (by association of belief and history) of being a abo hunter, digger of mass graves for ethnic cleansing, and routinely fucks children because laws don’t apply to survivalists.

     Note that I am merely using your own tactics about taking a generalisation and in this case applying it to an individual.

     If you want to comment here, then don’t let your stupid and simpleton level of bigotry guide your words. It isn’t useful for having a robust discussion. ]
     • Grey Area 3.2.1

       6 April 2024 at 6:07 pm

       I don't always/often agree with you lprent but as soon as I see Psycho Milt re-appear I think this isn't going to end well.
       • lprent 3.2.1.1

         6 April 2024 at 6:22 pm

         He actually hasn't been too bad starting this time around. He is always like this after a long period away. Forgets how to argue coherently after he has been living in a bubble for a while.

         I have been making damn sure that I keep using his own tactics against him to remind him just how offensive they are, while delivering the facts that form my opinions and why they are my opinions.

         Problem is that he seems to start dealing with people as labels when he is in his wee bubble. Has problem dealing with them as individuals for a while.
     • Grey Area 3.2.2

       6 April 2024 at 8:43 pm

       Are you trying trying to argue that Israel is a liberal democracy?
       • Psycho Milt 3.2.2.1

         7 April 2024 at 7:26 am

         Not interested in heading off down any sophistry rabbit-holes, thanks.
   • Traveller 3.3

     6 April 2024 at 6:25 pm

     "Israel should be wound up as a failed state full stop."

     No, Israel is a remarkable, successful state.

     1. "Having planted over 240 million trees, it is the only country that ended the 20th century with more trees than it started with."
     2. "Seventy-five percent of Israel’s water is recycled after use, with the world’s largest desalination plant located in Ashkelon."
     3. "Israel has pioneered arid land agriculture, and has hosted more than 200,000 people from 130 developing countries for training in agriculture and other fields."
     4. "Israel’s achievements in hi-tech go back to its early days to 1954 when, WEIZAC, one of the world’s first computers, was designed and built at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot."

     5. "Twenty-four percent of the members of Israel’s work-force have university degrees, the third-largest number in the industrialized world."

     6. "Israel also has the world’s highest count of high-tech startups (4,000 currently), the most per-capita in the world."

     7. "On the medical front, two out of the top three medications to treat multiple sclerosis were developed in Israel".

     8. "Israeli microbiologists developed the first passive vaccine against the mosquito-borne West Nile virus".

     9. "An Israeli company developed the first indigestible video camera to help diagnose cancer and digestive disorders, so small it fits inside a pill that desolves".

     10. "Israel also developed the world’s first pill to deliver a daily dose of insulin to diabetes sufferers".
     13 Reasons Why Israel Is Awesome | Touchpoint Israel

     Israel has some arseholes (and for the life of me I can’t understand everything going on in Gaza), but then so do all nations.
     • Tiger Mountain 3.3.1

       7 April 2024 at 6:45 am

       Is this an Israeli Embassy handout or similar? It makes no odds if Israel finds a cure for cancer if they continue to run an Apartheid State–which they do with walls, cages, brutality, imprisonment of minors, attacks on religious services and funerals, and even separate roading systems.

       If the US ever turns off the money/arms tap you would rapidly see a very different Israel.
       • Psycho Milt 3.3.1.1

         7 April 2024 at 7:30 am

         We already saw it. US only became a significant ally in the 1970s. From the history books, it still sounds like a way better place back then than any of its neighbours.
       • Traveller 3.3.1.2

         7 April 2024 at 10:55 am

         You are suggesting that a legitimate and successful nation be wound up. If your justification for that is atrocity or the receipt of aid, I look forward to you calling for the winding up of many other nations on the planet. Israel needs political change, not eradication.
   • Belladonna 3.4

     6 April 2024 at 6:38 pm

     Israel should be wound up as a failed state full stop.

     I find it difficult to understand your definition of a 'failed state'.

     It seems to me that the general complaint is that Israel is all too capable at exercising control over the land and people – not to mention projecting warfare outside it's borders.

     Even if your suggestion was considered seriously (Who would make this call? And who would implement it?). What is your suggestion for the relocation of the Jewish people currently inhabiting Israel?
     • Tiger Mountain 3.4.1

       7 April 2024 at 6:38 am

       What a hilarious comment–do realise how many Palestinians have been “relocated” over the 75 years of occupation?

       No relocation needed for Jewish people that pull their heads in and are willing to live in harmony with the rest in one state. Right of return for displaced and dispossessed Palestinians would be part of it. No walls and separate roads. As for the hardcore Zionists, the USA surely would like to have them…they seem to give them a lot of dosh…
       • Belladonna 3.4.1.1

         7 April 2024 at 11:52 am

         Tell me one Muslim state in the Middle or Near East which has not effectively removed the entirety of their Jewish population.

         Here's a start…..
         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

         Why would Palestine be any different?

         Or are you proposing a UN mandate – with armed soldiers preventing atrocities on both sides (we all know just how well that would go). Have a look at the history of the British mandate in Palestine.

         Still waiting on your … unique… definition of a ‘failed state’.
   • Mikey 3.5

     7 April 2024 at 12:36 pm

     What could be done at a distance is to persuade hammass to release the surviving hostages and the remains of the murdered hostages, and persuade Yayar Sinwar to turn himself in. That would be a massive help.
4. AB 4

   6 April 2024 at 12:27 pm

   If the IDF targeted these three well-marked vehicles which have permission from Israel to operate in Gaza, it appears that they don't particularly care if aid-workers are killed – as long as some Hamas fighters are also killed.

   Those Hamas fighters might be real, imagined or invented – we don't know which. But it doesn't matter that we don't know. Because the effect of these workers being killed is that aid organisations will withdraw from the region rather than put their staff at risk, and other aid organisations are deterred from even entering the region. The already inadequate supply of food will be diminished further. It's a fair conclusion that Israel doesn't care about that either.
   • Psycho Milt 4.1

     6 April 2024 at 12:57 pm

     When militaries that don't consist largely of Jews kill their own soldiers in 'friendly fire' incidents, do you immediately assume in those cases also that it appears they don't particularly care if they kill their own comrades, or do you do them the ordinary human courtesy of suspecting some unfortunate commander made a lethal mistake?
     • AB 4.1.1

       6 April 2024 at 1:48 pm

       You are not getting away with thinly-veiled accusations of anti-Semitism directed at me my friend. I will not tolerate your ugly, unfounded smears.

       Because I wasn't talking about friendly fire at all. I am talking about well-marked vehicles of an aid organisation that had permission to operate in the area. And if any military other than the IDF had done such a thing I would conclude exactly the same thing. It is just, just about conceivable that the incident might have all been a mistake, but context matters in making these judgments. And the context is that food is already being denied to people in Gaza.

       Retract your smear now please. You have no access to the content of my mind and are playing God.
       • aj 4.1.1.1

         6 April 2024 at 2:13 pm

         The targeting of doctors and aid workers, and destruction of hospitals, are multipliers. Less food, less medical attention create more victims of this campaign of destruction.
       • Psycho Milt 4.1.1.2

         6 April 2024 at 2:49 pm

         Friendly fire incidents are relevant here because a military will be even more protective its own troops and even more familiar with their locations and movements than with third parties, and yet killing its own troops by mistake sometimes happens.

         "Well-marked" means nothing at night. In the dark, they're just vehicles.

         Everyone always says no they don't restrict their immediate assumptions of evildoing to the military of the only Jewish state on the planet, and yet it's the military of the only Jewish state on the planet that somehow gets all the negative attention. I'm interested in why that is.
         • Descendant Of Smith 4.1.1.2.1

           6 April 2024 at 5:14 pm

           Only if you ignore high profile cases that for instance the Australians have had, the US have had including that released by Assange, the criticism of drone killing of civilians in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Yemen and Somalia that resulted in increased transparency about drone targeting, anger about Wagner's killings of civilians in Mali, the death of captured civilians by the Indian Army, both the Bush's and their war mongering and hundreds of more investigations.

           This poor me shit but what about the holocaust is starting to piss off even people who have had little interest in what has been going on previously. The thing is no-one thinks that the holocaust gives you the right to kill and maim and bomb the way you have. In fact I go as far to say that most people think the remembrance of it means you should show more compassion and restraint.

           I'm interested in why that is.

           That indeed is the very last thing you are interested in.
           • Psycho Milt 4.1.1.2.1.1

             6 April 2024 at 5:26 pm

             Good point. I don't recall anyone suggesting war crimes by Aus soldiers were 'Australian' atrocities, that it showed a general incompetence, lack of discipline or murderous intent of the Aus military, or that the soldiers were murdering civilians at the behest of the Aus govt.

             No-one else mentioned the Holocaust. Just you.
             • Descendant Of Smith …

               6 April 2024 at 5:47 pm

               You memory doesn't serve you well. There are numerous reports describing them as such.

               https://theconversation.com/the-anzac-legend-has-blinded-australia-to-its-war-atrocities-its-time-for-a-reckoning-151022

               There are just not as many as Israel commits to be upset about.

               No-one else mentioned the Holocaust. Just you.

               It is always one of the sub-texts and we should not pretend otherwise nor should we confuse anti killing civilians with antisemitism.

               “The war is not just with Hamas, the war [is] with all the civilians,” Israeli soldier Btzalel Taljah told CNN in October 2023, a point that went unquestioned. “It is an entire nation out there that is responsible,” Israeli President Isaac Herzog said that same month, implying it wasn’t just Hamas that needed to pay for their atrocities, but the Palestinian people as a whole. Israel’s approach to what is often called “mowing the lawn” in Israel, lived up to this framing, using blistering force in civilian areas that has led to an astounding body count in just a matter of months.

               “[Israelis] are committed to completely eliminating this evil from the world,” Israeli President Benjamin Netanyahu said (in Hebrew) in October 2023. “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember.” Amalek is the Biblical enemy race whom God commands the Israelites to eradicate.

               https://www.yesmagazine.org/opinion/2024/01/22/israel-jewish-holocaust-gaza
             • lprent …

               6 April 2024 at 6:16 pm

               I don't recall anyone suggesting war crimes by Aus soldiers were 'Australian' atrocities, that it showed a general incompetence, lack of discipline ….

               And then you drivel off onto making mountains out of molehills again.

               I certainly did. Specifically that there was an culture amongst the aussie SAS units in Afghanistan (and also amongst some of our units there). Which was pretty much the same conclusion that the Aussie military came to when some of these incidents came to light because journos dug into them.

               Problem is that there is a difference between making mistakes at a individual or small unit level and mass murder or whole populations – which is what the IDF appears to be doing.

               Having a systematic program of razing buildings by bombing or using artillery on them knowing that there are civilians inside. Systematically destroying hospitals while also starving a whole population. Having the leaders of the Israeli nation like Hertzog state explicitly that their war wasn't just against Hamas, but against the whole population of civilians inside Gaza.

               That just gives license to murderous arseholes to go out and start viewing all 'civilians' by culture or religion as vermin to send to open graves (or eventually gas chambers).

               Which appears to be exactly what we are seeing in Gaza by the IDF.

               You look to me like a good Mosley follower in the 1930s. To bound up in your own bigotry to see what is happening and what the consequences are likely to be. Willing to believe any old crap so long as it sounds like a good line and conforms to your bigotry, and basically incapable of thinking for yourself about where those attitudes lead to.
               • SPC …

                 6 April 2024 at 7:06 pm

                 Isaac son of Chaim Herzog.

                 He expressed some distress that Gaza civilians did not warn Israel, as if they should know they paid the price (dahiya doctrine) after any Hamas attack.

                 The thing is there were two warnings – of the plan concept a year prior and then 6 months later of the training to enact the plan. The IDF at first concluded they lacked the capability and still saw no real threat when the training came – because they were convinced that Hamas did not want a confrontation.

                 It was their occupation complacency. Some would use the report of such a plan and training to do it as an excuse for a full upgrade of the southern defences and major training exercises, especially around the 50th of 1973. It could well have acted as a deterrent.

                 https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/
                 • Psycho Milt …

                   6 April 2024 at 7:34 pm

                   This is just taking Hamas as a given again. Israel's fault for not correctly assessing forces of nature that no-one should consider as involving any human agency. Please apply the same level of scrutiny and expectations to Israel's enemies that you do to Israel.
                 • lprent …

                   6 April 2024 at 7:43 pm

                   Isaac son of Chaim Herzog.

                   Sorry. Unfortunately the (missing) compiler let that one past.

                   I have problems understanding exactly how the analysts could have missed it. Hamas have been quite robust in their belief that Gaza and Palestine could not go on as they had.

                   Israel was clearly trying to sideline the Palestinians politically and diplomatically. Had months before resumed stealing land for settlements in the West Bank. Were running a corrupt land scam with orthodox church in Jerusalem. Plus Israel itself was in internal chaos because of that crooked nutbar Netanyahu to the point where parts of the more highly trained parts of the IDF were talking various forms of rebellion.

                   Moreover the border was a undermanned tech variant of the Maginot line in 1940 with exactly the same weakness – it was possible to go around (or over it) and isolate the communications. Plus Israel (yet again!) has way too many holidays for a working military.

                   There was every reason to suspect that Hamas would allow the emerging scheme by Israel to go ahead because it would threaten any hope of things being changed for the better in the future for Palestinians as a whole. It was clear that Israel was intending it to be far worse with less support.

                   The Hamas militias have always been disrupters. They did it again.

                   Plus the Israelis were clearly stupidly complacent

                   Plus Israel actually had the broad plans of the possible attack a year ahead. Just as the French had had in 1940. Didn't even apparently spend time figuring out how to knock out slow moving motorised para-gliders because they didn't think that it was technically possible

                   According to The New York Times, Israeli officials had obtained detailed attack plans more than a year before the attack. The document described operational plans and targets, including the size and location of Israeli forces, and raised questions in Israel about how Hamas learned these details. The document provided a plan that included a large-scale rocket assault before an invasion, drones to knock out the surveillance cameras and automated guns that Israel has stationed along the border, and gunmen invading Israel, including with paragliders. The Times reported, "Hamas followed the blueprint with shocking precision." According to The Times, the document was widely circulated among Israeli military and intelligence leadership, who largely dismissed the plan as beyond Hamas's capabilities, though it was unclear whether the political leadership was informed. In July 2023, a member of the Israeli signals intelligence unit alerted her superiors that Hamas was conducting preparations for the assault, saying, "I utterly refute that the scenario is imaginary". An Israeli colonel ignored her concerns.[90]

                   Just hubris to think that no-one else can think forward and learn to do the non-obvious.
   • lprent 4.2

     6 April 2024 at 5:30 pm

     The account from the BBC is the best that I have seen for what happened.

     https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68742572

     What is noticeable through the whole account was that..

     1. That apparently the the firecontrol officer for a heavily built up area wasn't informed of a pre-agreed aid convoy going through a designated aid route. The level of functional stupidity in that was immense.
     2. That all three vehicles that were attacked by the IDF, kilometres apart, and that the signs on all three were not visible to the drone operator. It was at night. Whatever – that means that either the drone had really bad resolution or that it was flying too high. In any case it meant that a clear confirmed target acquisition was not made. Therefore none of the vehicles should have been targeted. That is a fundamental of all military operations where civilians are involved. It is also the basis of the rules of engagement of the IDF.
     3. There was a weapon by someone on top of a aid truck that was being escorted by the WCK team. This isn't surprising, most aid trucks in starvation zones have armed guards. They also fire them as warnings. In Gaza there have been several incidents of food aid being swarmed and it causing casualties.
     4. Then a classic bit…
        

        At this stage the military contacts World Central Kitchen but they are in turn unable to reach the team on the ground – where phone communication is patchy and aid agencies say they are prohibited by the IDF from using radios.

        Someone tried to do the right thing, also the wrong thing because there was no communication facility by IDF design. However it also indicates that the military knew who to call. Which makes point 1 even more stupid.

     5. This is where it gets insane. After dropping the lorry off at the aid warehouse, one SUV with gunmen goes in one direction (guards finishing work? , Hamas?) and three SUVs containing just the aid workers go in the other.
        

        The drone team, the army says, now working under the assumption that they are dealing with Hamas militants and not an aid convoy, had misidentified one of the aid workers as a gunman, and claimed to have seen them enter one of the three WCK cars.

        No footage of this moment was provided, but the military investigation concluded that it was a "misclassification… they saw that it's a rifle but at the end of the day it was a bag".

        Basically this sounds like complete bullshit. It is dark. The drones are running under low light and/or infrared and obviously high. You literally cannot see a weapon clearly unless it is fired. You also cannot tell one person from another. And even worse, apparently the IDF can see identify people changing cars from inside a fucking roofed warehouse because earlier..

        The military then tracks the convoy, including the aid lorry, to a warehouse. Then the convoy splits – the aid lorry remains in the warehouse and four SUV-type cars emerge.
        One of those vehicles heads north, and is then shown to contain gunmen, with weapons clearly visible from the drone footage, as they emerge next to another aid warehouse. The IDF say that these gunmen were not targeted, because of their proximity to an aid facility.

        Meanwhile, three remaining vehicles belonging to World Central Kitchen begin to head south.

     6. So even if there was a single gunman in the three cars – which there wasn't. The IDF still had no idea of who any of the other 6 people were. But they were making sure and regardless of there maybe being civilians or aid worker or even children in the vehicles – the murdering suckers flying the drones were making sure..

        Under the mistaken belief that one vehicle now contained a gunman, authorisation to fire a missile is sought, and granted by superior officers. At 23:09 the first vehicle is struck, two minutes later the second, and at 23:13 the third final, fatal strike is launched.

     

     That wasn't a mistake. That was immoral dipshits unworthy of being called soldiers making shit up when they literally couldn't see and (at the very best interpretation) firing on the basis of killing one armed civilian an d having collateral damage of at least 6 other 'guilty' civilians. Knowing the IDF as a pack shiftless arse-coverers – no-one will ever be taken into a military tribunal and face time in the stockade.

     If you read the accounts of virtually any case of collateral damage by the IDF in this conflict – they are sloppy ill-disciplined soldiers, they act completely immorally, and their leaders are genocidal because they encourage terrorism of civilians by their troops.

     As I stated at the start of this round of Gazan conflict, the IDF are acting exactly like the SS soldiers in 1943 in the Warsaw ghetto. That is why neither they nor the Israeli state should be allowed to run continue to run governance or security inside Gaza or the West Bank.

     The Israeli state and its IDF are deeply immoral. Eventually they will work out a “final solution” that completes what they started in the nakba in 1948 – that involves killing or driving off all Palestinians and seizing their land and property.
5. Mike the Lefty 5

   6 April 2024 at 3:29 pm

   So called "investigation" by Israeli authorities into the deaths of aid workers in an international aid convoy is an international damage limitation exercise only.

   There is little reason to believe it will change the IDF's behaviour. They will continue to target civilians and prevent aid convoys from reaching the desperate people.
   • lprent 5.1

     6 April 2024 at 6:31 pm

     Pretty much. Quite how they 'think' that any of this will help Israel in the longer term is unknown. It is essentially the same suppression tactics that they have been using since after the 1967/1973 wars.

     You'd think that they would have learnt after 50 years that they actually have to work with Palestinians to get a real peace. The problem isn't going away just because Israel managed to seize land and property in 1948 and pushed the existing residents out with force and guile into refugee camps and would like them all to disappear.

     Instead you have fuckwits in the Knesset steadily working towards trying to carry on stealing more land while complaining about how much it costs to run the IDF and taking military charity from the US.
6. aj 6

   6 April 2024 at 9:51 pm

   “Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves” — Confucius
7. gsays 7

   7 April 2024 at 8:08 am

   Phew, quite the sausage party here.

   My question is, why haven't we sent the Israeli ambassador home?

   Offered a home here for some Palestinians, even if it were to be temporary.
8. Larus Dominicanus 8

   7 April 2024 at 10:56 am

   An interesting analysis by an American sociologist:

   https://sociological-eye.blogspot.com/2024/03/sociology-of-gaza-war.html

   [Please correct the typo in your email address in your next comment, thanks – Incognito]
   • Incognito 8.1

     7 April 2024 at 11:10 am

     Mod note
9. Subliminal 9

   7 April 2024 at 11:17 am

   It actually seems quite difficult to become immune to the latest atrocities comitted by the IDF since the depths they are willing to sink to continually, have the effect of a jab with a cattle prod. The latest is absolutely atrocious torture of Palestinian detainees. And this reported by Israelis in Haaretz.

   Palestinians zip tied with all four limbs for months requiring amputation and left to defacate in diapers.

   Its a twitter link but very long. If you want to see the link, long press on touch screen or right click with mouse. This lets you see the link before deciding wether or not to go there. I dont know how to embed.
10. SPC 10

    7 April 2024 at 1:32 pm

    A range of stories here.

    https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=doctor+at+israeli+field+hospital

    The original

    https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-04-04/ty-article/.premium/doctor-at-idf-field-hospital-for-detained-gazans-we-are-all-complicit-in-breaking-law/0000018e-a59c-dfed-ad9f-afdfb5ce0000

    https://archive.li/OYYH4
11. Ad 11

    7 April 2024 at 1:52 pm

    If the US really does cut military aid to Israel, Israel re-aligns to Turkey and Saudi Arabia. The US gets the message.

    This may happen anyway when US military completes its Gaza port and forms new aid pipeline.

    If you want to see what Gaza looks like without massive US aid, check out Lebanon.

    US global retreat is what the left wanted, well this is what it will look like.
    • SPC 11.1

      7 April 2024 at 3:48 pm

      1.The isolationists are in the GOP. NATO gets that.

      2.The money for past rebuilds of Gaza did not come from the USA.

      3.The issue of a Gaza port aid pipeline is unrelated to USA military and economic aid to Israel.

      4.The USA has once before made aid to Israel contingent on a requirement – no first strike in 1973.*

      5.The critics of Israeli policy in the Democratic Party would need support from some of the GOP to have a majority in Congress.

      6.Economic aid to Israel is around that for Egypt and Jordan (part of the peace process arbiter role is/was leverage).

      7.The amount of military aid (which occurs during times of conflict) is linked to Israel buying American. If there was “no aid to buy” American, Israel would have to buy the arms with their own money, or buy elsewhere.

      At the moment allowing Israel capability means no need for US involvement.

      The strike at the Iranian consulate (by the embassy) in Syria has a consequence.*

      I would guess it would be about Hezbollah being joined by other Shia militias. Formation of a part Iraqi/part Iranian Quds/part Syrian/part Yemen "volunteer" group – as per 2014 Donbass, to fight Israel until it hands over areas claimed by Lebanon and Syria.

      Though the subplot to that is removal of the American bases in Syria and Iraq (and American military presence in the region).

      8.Turkey and SA are unlikely to get involved in any Iran-Israel war. Iran prefers to use the proxy anyhow.

      Sure Turkey and SA have their own designs for Syria and Iraq.
      • Ad 11.1.1

        7 April 2024 at 6:13 pm

        If a new US-built port for aid isn't "intervention" I'd like to see the operating definition. NATO isn't relevant here. There's good reason to expect the Gaza aid delivery story to change soon.

        https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/05/what-aid-routes-into-gaza-will-israel-open-and-what-will-happen-next

        The US remains the largest donor to Gaza aid, and the largest weapons dealer to Israel. Biden's party is pressing him hard to change this contradiction, particularly after one key US aid donor was killed by the same Israeli military it supports.

        I'm not sure what you mean by "no US involvement". They are very deeply involved, diplomatically and militarily. The Pentagon plan for the new port will be fleets of US trucks up and down Gaza, for a lengthy period of time.

        I'm not proposing a wider war occurring. Only that Israel has alliance options, as per the Abrahamic Accords. I am astounded at how little part Saudi Arabia is playing in Gaza support, other than to flick tokens of aid at them and little else.

        Weirdly I think Biden is playing this well. Israel still has no exit plan or reconstruction plan or aid plan or anything else. Only Biden's Defence and State Department have the capacity to roll a port and a plan out for the other aid agencies.
12. joe90 12

    7 April 2024 at 2:29 pm

    War crime after war crime.

    CNN —

    A doctor at a field hospital for detained Palestinians at Israel’s Sde Teiman army base has described “deplorable conditions” and “routine” amputations due to handcuff injuries, according to an exclusive report from the newspaper Haaretz.

    In a letter to Israel’s attorney general and defense and health ministers, obtained by Haaretz, the doctor said the conditions at Sde Teiman field hospital compromise inmates’ health and violate medical ethics.

    “Just this week, two prisoners had their legs amputated due to handcuff injuries, which unfortunately is a routine event,” the doctor said in the letter, according to the Haaretz report on Thursday. He wrote that inappropriate care at the detention facility has led to “complications and sometimes even in the patient’s death,” adding that “this makes all of us – the medical teams and you, those in charge of us in the health and defense ministries, complicit in the violation of Israeli law.”

    Haaretz reported that the doctor said “inmates are fed through straws, defecate in diapers and are held [in] constant restraints, which violate medical ethics and the law.” It is not clear when the doctor penned the letter.

    https://edition.cnn.com/2024/04/06/middleeast/doctor-israel-hospital-conditions-intl/index.html
13. Subliminal 13

    7 April 2024 at 9:47 pm

    +972 Mag has done another bone chilling interview of Israeli "intelligence" operatives that shows a Gaza worse than the dystopia of a real bad nightmare.

    The IDF has passed over to an AI bot named Lavender the work of identifying Palestinians to be placed on a kill list and have accepted Lavender analysis as fact. The only human check made on an identified target is to check that they are male, usually by listening to a voice recording.

    Once verified as male, the Palestinian is tracked by software until they reach their family home at which point they are passed on to the airforce for delivery of the bomb. If the man is considered low level the bomb will be dumb because smart bombs are considered a constrained resource. Most men are low level. The tracking software is called Where's Daddy?.

    The IDF admits to a 10% error rate. However, part of Lavenders training involved being fed data of medics, civil police and civil defence.

    On slow days, the pressure on "intelligence" is such that they may lower the threshold i.e increase the error rate, or copy/paste names from a list into Lavender. One interviewee admitted to one day copy/pasting 1200 names.

    This answers a lot of questions.

    We now know why houses and blocks of houses have been levelled. Many dumb bombs aimed in the direction of the residence of a man who, by the time the bomb arrives, may or may not be at home.

    We now know why the kill rate of women and children is off the charts compared to any modern conflict. The bomb is always delivered to the family. The man may or may not be there. There may be more than one family sharing the residence

    We now know why the IDF stubbornly insists, though lacking physical evidence, that Hamas operates out of hospitals. Lavender, the AI bot that was trained on the data of medics has told them that this is the case.

    We now know why civil police were targeted even as they were going about one of their primary functions of protecting and distributing aid. Lavender told the IDF that they weren't really police. This even to the extreme of executing the head of police the day after he had successfully brought in aid trucks to Northern Gaza and kept the crowd of starving Palestinians calm and following instructions. It is unlikely that there is any longer a police force able to carry out this work.

    https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
    • aj 13.1

      7 April 2024 at 10:00 pm

      that Hamas operates out of hospitals

      Or, and quite chilling, is that Lavender targets wounded Hamas in hospitals. Executing the wounded and people giving them aid.

      This is right up there with the worst atrocities you care to name and totally outside the rules of war.

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