web analytics

On child poverty

Written By: - Date published: 10:27 am, April 29th, 2008 - 25 comments
Categories: families, labour - Tags: ,

The Child Poverty Action Group has released a report [PDF, 400k] showing there were 185,000 children living in poverty in New Zealand in 2004. That’s a big number but it is out of date and already well down from the dark days of the 1990s.

It is estimated that higher employment, higher wages, paid paternal leave, and Working of Families have combined to reduce child poverty by 70% since 2004. On top of that, improved public services, free early childhood education, subsidised doctors’ visits, and cheaper medicine have improved the lives of all children but aren’t caught by the poverty line measure, which only counts income, not the social wage. Moreover, it should be remembered that the poverty line is a moving target; it is 60% of the median household income. Since real incomes are up 15% since National was booted out, even someone living on the poverty line is 15% better off than in 1999.

Notwithstanding all that, more can be done to reduce child poverty. After nine years of centre-left government, the only children still living in poverty are those living in beneficiary households, who can’t get Working for Families. Something can be done for these families. One option would be to restore benefit levels to what they were before Ruth Richardson slashed them in the 1991 ‘Mother of All Budgets’. Another option would be to increase the child tax credit portion of Working for Families, which goes to beneficiary as well as working families. Both these measures would have the added benefit of putting more money into the pockets of people who are hardest hit by the slowing economy, which would create demand and stimulate their local economies.

That child poverty has been reduced 70% is of great credit to Labour but there shouldn’t be any child poverty in a nation as wealthy as New Zealand. It’s good to see the Minister agrees. The only way to get there is with better assistance to families in need. Tax cuts alone won’t cut it.


25 comments on “On child poverty”

  1. Steve Pierson 1

    Ever wondered why the 1991 Budget is known as the ‘Mother of All Budgets’?

    It was the first budget delivered by a woman but the real reason was that the Budget took place just after the second Gulf War. At the start of the war, Saddam had promised America and it’s allies the ‘Mother of all Battles’ if they tried to liberate Kuwait. In Arabic, calling something the mother or father of something is used to say it’s great or huge – the city Abu Dhabi means ‘father of gazelles’, lots of gazelles there it seems.

    And so ‘mother of all budgets’, a budget that delivered something big and terrible, benefit cuts that plunged the economy into recession and tens of thousands of kiwis into poverty.

  2. spanner 2

    Grey power have just asked Helen Clark what is alternative for food consumption, as they wrap themselves in blankets to keep warm.Wineter power cuts loom for them.

    Didn’t Helen Clark say that poverty in NZ was just “extrapolated from an anecdote”?

  3. Didn’t John Key say the answer to the “underclass” was muesli bars and more sports clubs? Oh and tax cuts for the rich? Ahhh… “trickle down” … those were the days…

  4. Dancer 4

    While like most NZers I support the elimination of child poverty we also need to recognise that it’s an area to “measure”. For example the report suggests it is providing a current “where we’re at” on child poverty in New Zealand, 2007. But the info they are working from are all from 2004 and previous years prior to Working for Families and other government policy changes. None of the material I’ve seen around (on poverty/ hardship etc) is actually for 2007.

    And missing out Working for Families is important – a family earning less than $35,000 now effectively pays zero tax.

    I was also surprised to see a call for the removal of KiwiSaver tax credits on the grounds that it benefits middle income earners. However people across income brackets, age groups, and ethnicities are signing up (http://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/kiwisaver+working+new+zealanders).

    And just last month we had the NZ Herald saying “Child poverty is finally on the way down in two of the three rich countries where it increased the most in the 1980s and 90s – Britain and New Zealand.” http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/1/story.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10503896&pnum=0

    So we are making slow progress?

  5. bill brown 5

    you’re on a hiding to nowhere if your definition of poverty is families with incomes below 60% of the median.

    By definition, this is always going to end up with people defined as in poverty.

    This is up there with “we want all kids to perform above average at school”

  6. Steve Pierson 6

    bill. to be fair, it’s not my defination, it’s the international one. The reason it is a fraction of median income, and not a fixed level is a recognition that poverty is different in different societies, it’s not about how much you have but how much you have relative to other people.

    And you’re right that reaching the rising bar is hard but it’s not mathmatically impossible, like having all kids above average at school would be. You just have to ensure that no family with kids has an income of less than 60% what the median household has.

  7. Craig Ranapia 7

    And you’re right that reaching the rising bar is hard but it’s not mathmatically impossible, like having all kids above average at school would be. You just have to ensure that no family with kids has an income of less than 60% what the median household has.

    Steve: Perhaps I’m showing my innumeracy here (not impossible considering that I’m doing really well if I can reconcile my bank statement the same way twice, two months in a row), but wouldn’t that move the median upwards.

    And I don’t know if it’s either politically or ethically wise to tell people who don’t have children that they somehow deserve to be in poverty, no matter how you define it.

  8. Phil 8

    Is this the report which stated “Child poverty is highly correlated to household income”?

    That’s gold – I bet it took them a lot of hard number crunching to work that one out…

    Seriously though, single point-in-time studies like these are pretty much useless for coming up with strategies to reduce poverty. To use a sporting analogy; they give you the score-card at the end of the match rather than a play-by-play.

    What is essential is having a logitudinal study of significant depth and breadth to begin looking at real dynamics and household mobility – that exists with SoFIE (http://www.stats.govt.nz/products-and-services/info-releases/sofie-info-releases.htm) and I really hope that once researchers get their teeth into that, it will produce some really positive outcomes

  9. And so ‘mother of all budgets’, a budget that delivered something big and terrible, benefit cuts that plunged the economy into recession and tens of thousands of kiwis into poverty.

    Um, no. The MOAB actually benefited NZ hugely and practically saved the economy. No one defends the MOAB by saying it was the best thing to do (save Richardson herself and Douglas, but that is no surprise) or that we should do it again, but let’s be honest it was the necessary thing to do at the time because of the terrible state of the economy.

    Upon winning the 1990 election, Bolger and Richardson quickly became aware of two unrelated financial crises: firstly, that the Bank of New Zealand required an immediate injection of capital to avoid insolvency as a result of the poor performance of a NZ$2.8bn loan portfolio in Australia, and secondly that the outgoing finance minister David Caygill’s projection of a modest fiscal surplus was inaccurate, and that the country instead faced a fiscal deficit of NZ$5.2bn if action were not taken immediately.

    So, the economy was in tatters (thanks to Labour) and the MOAL was designed to cut back and save money so that a recession was avoided. In fact, much of the economic buoyancy in Labour’s term, such as the massive surpluses, has been credited to the policies of Richardson. So really you ought to be thanking her, Pierson.

  10. Scarfie 10

    Perhaps I’m showing my innumeracy here … but wouldn’t that move the median upwards.

    Craig, no it wouldn’t. The median is the value which separates a population of values into two halves, values above and values below.

    The following two populations of values:
    “1 2 5 8 9”
    “4 4 5 8 9”
    both have the same median, 5. Now think of those numbers as representing family income, and compare the low ends.

  11. Matthew Pilott 11

    Craig Ranapia, there is a difference in the workings of the mean (average) and median in the example Steve gives.

    Let’s say the median is $60k – this will be the actual dollar value of the middle income. This means that if there are 21 people earning an income in the group being measured, the income of the 10th (when they are ranked in ascending order – imagine it as a list, the median is plucked from the middle) earner will be $60,000.

    If someone goes from, say, $45,000 to $55,000, on our hypothetical list, the median will not have changed. They may have gone from 3rd to 7th, but the median (10th) will not ahve changed. The median only changes when someone crosses the median – goes from below to above and vice versa. With what Steve is talking about, you have a hypothetical situation whereby there would be no family with an income of below $36,000 (or 60% of the median).

    I don’t think that it is mentioned, implicit or otherwise, that people without children deserve to be in poverrty, I’m afraid it appears to me you made that up, or are looking for a fight somehow!

  12. Ben R 12

    The majority of the children cited come from families receiving WINZ benefits. Isn’t there an obligation on those receiving WINZ benefits, or Housing New Zealand accomodation/allowances to use contraception?

    It’s an abuse of the welfare system & the social contract that underlies it to have large families while receiving benefits.

    Increasing payments may work in the short term, but will ultimately lead to the system collapsing under its own weight.

    With better family planning child poverty would reduce.

  13. bill brown 13

    It is implicit that if people with children’s incomes are bolstered so that they do not fall below the 60% threshold a proportion of people without children will be moved into the poverty bracket as the median will drift up.

  14. Steve Pierson 14

    bill brown, learn the difference between a median and a mean.

    Ben R, weirdest comment of the day

  15. Matthew Pilott 15

    Yes bill (if that comment is directed to what I said) but no one is saying that we should ignore poverty for families without children. This post is about child poverty though, which is why people are looking at and discussing…child poverty. And no one came remotely close to saying, as Craig implied, that people without children deserve to be in poverty.

  16. Ben R 16


    Could you explain what you don’t understand about my post?

    My point is that we have a form of social contract where we pay benefits to those in need. As with any contact/agreement there is some obligation on both parties. Surely those getting money from the state, should be using contraception to avoid increasing the amount the state needs to pay them?

    My other point is that while CPAG make some fair points, they seem to overlook family planning. When that is the clearest way to reduce child poverty. Women in third world countries often live in poverty because they can’t use contraception, but that’s not the case in NZ.

  17. Hillary 17

    Ben R, should we compulsorily sterilise beneificiaries, since they are breeding like rabbits at the taxpayers expense?

    If it was true that people are choosing DPB as a lifestyle, which I doubt, what would that say about other opportunities available to them?

    Labour have done alot to address child poverty, and its great to hear Dyson saying that child poverty can be eliminated. It must be.

    Which is why Labour has to win the election. I am seriously fearful about what would happen to children of working and not working families under National.

  18. Ben R 18


    No, I don’t think the state should have that kind of coercive power – it would be pretty hard to say we lived in a liberal democracy if that happened.

    I just don’t see why family planning isn’t at least talked about as a way to reduce child poverty. It shouldn’t be viewed as a negative or taboo subject. As I mentioned above, reducing family size is one of the easiest ways historically for people, particularly women, to avoid poverty. I think CPAG overlooks this for ideological reasons, when it could actually help those in need.

  19. When the razor was taken to the benefit system by Jenny Shipley et al it wasn’t just the $ in the bank each fortnight, it was the added assistance that disappeared, which had previously enabled beneficiaries especially women on the DPB to manage their debt load as well as provide food, shelter and emotional support for their families. Things such as a maximum (repayable) $1000 loans for essential home repairs disappeared. The amount of casual part time work you could do before your benefit was shaved of the difference was reduced. Things became extremely rigid, kids started missing out on sports and other previously attainable social activities. I watched several friends struggle to explain that to their children. I am also again fearful for the children of beneficiaries under a National government.

  20. Mmmmm, beneficiary-bashing, it is delicious.

    Because of course the fact that “Working for Families” gives NO benefit to those families on benefits, and has in fact resulted in a net loss for some families, means nothing. It’s because the damn proles can’t keep it in their pants.

  21. Matthew Pilott 21

    How’s WfF caued a loss for some people, QoT?

    I often hear people complain that WfF doesn’t help people on benefits – perhaps a fair comment, although I’d say benefits not directly given in cash would be better – free quality training/education, basically things hat will help people get in to some form of work if they are able.

    Lastly, WfF provides a damn good incentive for someone on a benefit to get a job – and not a negative incentive (don’t work and you’ll be punished) but a positive one (get a job, and you’ll get that much more money). Gotta love that.

  22. ‘Working for Families’ would have the word ‘working’ in it because people are working. That would exclude people who don’t work, I suspect. Stop me if I’m being too obnoxious…but they would certainly have to rename it to pay it to people on welfare.

    It has also been called a tax cut, which also wouldn’t make much sense for people who don’t work and don’t pay tax.

    But the point I really wanted to make is that welfare causes poverty. After all, being welfare is not exactly the road to riches. Welfare payments are small to discourage the general population from giving up and going on welfare. Therefore if you are on welfare you are going to be poor.

    If someone can work out how to pay handsome welfare payments without having everyone quit, then please let us know, because this is the one question which can resisted solution by the most brilliant minds in economics for the past 60 years.

    It is an important question too, because there are people out there who are very badly treated by our welfare system. For example, I have been sickened by the plight of adults with learning problems, or physical disabilities, who never got anywhere in school. We should be spending a lot more on these people.

    Anyway, to reduce poverty you need to increase wealth. To do that you must reduce welfare roles.

  23. NP 23

    I had always understood that beneficiaries pay tax, yet do not receive ‘Working for Families’ assistance; hence the problem of the country’s poorest children becoming poorer over time, even if the remaining are in a better position than 1999.

  24. Draco TB 24

    Anyway, to reduce poverty you need to increase wealth. To do that you must reduce welfare roles.

    False dichotomy FTW?

    We need to help those to the opportunities available to them not just pay out welfare and expect them to suddenly become successful. They won’t simply because they don’t know how as they’ve never been taught. Throw in some confidence issues brought on by childhood abuse, probably a consequence of poverty itself, and you have some very real and very complex issues to deal with.

  25. lauren 25

    would national REALLY help the poor…whata joke! NO…VOTE LABOUR 2008, considering i come from a predominantly middle class family.

Links to post

Recent Comments

Recent Posts


  • September benefit figures disappointing
    The Government is out of touch with the reality that fewer people are going off the benefit and into employment or study, says Labour’s Social Development spokesperson Carmel Sepuloni.  “The quarterly benefit numbers for September are concerning. They show that ...
    3 days ago
  • MFAT officials refuse to back Prime Minister on Saudi sheep claims
    An Ombudsman’s interim decision released about the existence or otherwise of legal advice on the multimillion dollar Saudi sheep deal shows MFAT has failed to back up the Prime Minister’s claims on the matter, says Labour MP David Parker. “The ...
    3 days ago
  • Nats still planning to take Housing NZ dividend
    Housing New Zealand’s Statement of Performance Expectations shows that the National Government intends to pocket $237m from Housing New Zealand this year including a $54m “surplus distribution”, despite promises that dividends would stop, says Labour’s Housing spokesperson Phil Twyford. “After ...
    4 days ago
  • Parliament must restore democracy for Ecan
    Parliament has a chance to return full democracy to Canterbury with the drawing of a member’s bill that would replace the Government’s appointed commissioners with democratically elected councillors, says Labour’s Canterbury Spokesperson Megan Woods. “In 2010, the Government stripped Cantabrians ...
    4 days ago
  • Police struggle to hold the line in Northland
    Labour’s promise of a thousand extra police will go a long way to calming the fears of people in the North, says the MP for Te Tai Tokerau Kelvin Davis.  “Police are talking about the Northland towns of Kaitaia and ...
    4 days ago
  • Urgent action on agriculture emissions needed
    Immediate action is required to curb agricultural emissions is the loud and clear message from Climate change & agriculture: Understanding the biological greenhouse gases report released today by the Parliamentary Commissioner for the Environment, says Labour’s Climate Change spokesperson Megan ...
    5 days ago
  • Super Fund climate change approach a good start
    Labour Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson and Climate Change Spokesperson Dr Megan Woods have welcomed the adoption of a climate change investment strategy by the New Zealand Super Fund. “This is a good start. It is a welcome development that the Super ...
    5 days ago
  • Raising the age the right thing to do
    The announcement today that the Government will leave the door open for young people leaving state care still means there is a lot of work to do, says Labour's Spokesperson for Children, Jacinda Ardern "The Government indicated some time ago ...
    5 days ago
  • Coleman plays down the plight of junior doctors
    Junior doctors are crucial to our health services and the industrial action that continues tomorrow shows how desperately the Government has underfunded health, says Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King.  “Jonathan Coleman’s claim that he has not seen objective evidence of ...
    6 days ago
  • Inflation piles pressure on National and Reserve Bank
    While many households will welcome the low inflation figures announced today, they highlight serious questions for both the National government and the Reserve Bank, Labour’s  Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson said.  "While low inflation will be welcomed by many, the ...
    6 days ago
  • Officials warned Nat’s $1b infrastructure fund ineffective and rushed
    Treasury papers show the Government rushed out an infrastructure announcement officials told them risked making no significant difference to housing supply, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford.  “Like so much of National’s housing policy, this was another poll-driven PR initiative ...
    6 days ago
  • More cops needed to tackle P
    New Police statistics obtained in Written Questions show John Key is losing his War on P, highlighting the need for more Police, says Opposition Leader Andrew Little.  “New Zealanders expect serious action on P but today’s hodgepodge of half-measures won’t ...
    7 days ago
  • MBIE docs show country needs KiwiBuild, not Key’s pretend “building boom”
    John Key’s spin that New Zealand is in a building boom does not change the massive shortfall in building construction as new MBIE papers reveal, says Labour Party housing spokesperson Phil Twyford.  “We can fix the housing crisis, by the ...
    1 week ago
  • 1 in 7 Akl houses now going to big property speculators
    Speculators are running riot in the Auckland housing market making life tougher for first home buyers, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford.  Newly released data from Core Logic shows a 40 per cent increase in the share of house sales ...
    1 week ago
  • Labour mourns passing of Helen Kelly
    Helen Kelly was a passionate advocate for working New Zealanders and for a safe and decent working life, Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little says.  “Helen Kelly spent her adult life fighting for the right of every working person to ...
    1 week ago
  • Andrew Little: Speech to the Police Association Conference 2016
    Police Association delegates, Association life members and staff, representatives from overseas jurisdictions. Thank you for inviting me here today. The Police Association has become a strong and respected voice for Police officers and for policing in New Zealand. There is ...
    2 weeks ago
  • 1,000 more police for safer communities
    Labour will fund an extra 1,000 Police in its first term to tackle the rising rate of crime, says Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little. “Labour will put more cops on the beat to keep our communities safe. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Call for all-party round table on homelessness
    Labour is calling on the Government to take part in a roundtable meeting to hammer out a cross-party agreement on ending homelessness.  Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford said the country wanted positive solutions to homelessness, and wanted the political parties ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Working people carrying the can for the Government
    Today’s announcement of a Government operating surplus is the result of the hard work of many Kiwi businesses and workers, who will be asking themselves if they are receiving their fair share of growth in the economy, Grant Robertson Labour ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Breast cancer drugs should be available
    Labour supports the Breast Cancer Aotearoa Coalition’s campaign for better access to cancer treatments as more patients are denied what is freely available in Australia, says Labour’s Health spokesperson Annette King.  “In the last three years, PHARMAC’s funding has been ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Community law centres get much needed support from banks
      New Zealand’s network of community law centres, who operate out of more than 140 locations across the country, have today received a much needed boost, says Labour’s Justice spokesperson Jacinda Ardern.  “After more than 8 years of static funding ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Just 18 affordable homes in Auckland SHAs – It’s time for KiwiBuild
    New data revealing just 18 affordable homes have been built and sold to first home buyers in Auckland’s Special Housing Areas show National’s flagship housing policy has failed and Labour’s comprehensive housing plan is needed, says Leader of the Opposition ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Pasifika wins big in Auckland elections
    The Labour Party’s Pacific Candidates who stood for local elections in Auckland came out on top with 14 winners, says Labour’s Pacific Island Affairs spokesperson Su’a William Sio. “Our candidates have won seats on one ward, four local boards, two ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Seven7 hikoi to stop sexual violence
    2 weeks ago
  • Road toll passes 2013 total
    The road toll for the year to date has already passed the total for the whole of 2013, raising serious questions about the Government’s underfunding of road safety, says Labour’s Transport spokesperson Sue Moroney.  “According to the Ministry of Transport, ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Bay principals slam charter school decision
    A letter from Hawke’s Bay principals to the Education Minister slams the lack of consultation over the establishment of a charter school in the region and seriously calls into question the decision making going on under Hekia Parata’s watch, says ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Government needs to act on voter turnout crisis
    With fewer than 40 per cent of eligible voters having their say in the 2016 local elections, the Government must get serious and come up with a plan to increase voter turnout, says Labour’s Local Government Spokesperson Meka Whaitiri. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Inquiry presents solutions to homelessness – Govt must act
    Labour, the Green Party and the Māori Party are calling on the Government to immediately adopt the 20 recommendations set out in today's Ending Homelessness in New Zealand report. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • A good night for Labour’s local government candidates
    It has been a good night for Labour in the local government elections. In Wellington, Justin Lester became the first Labour mayor for 30 years, leading a council where three out of four Labour candidates were elected. Both of Labour’s ...
    2 weeks ago
  • More contenders for fight clubs
    Allegations of fight clubs spreading to other Serco-run prisons must be properly investigated says Labour’s Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis. ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Minister runs for cover on job losses
    Māori Development Minister Te Ururoa Flavell’s refusal to show leadership and provide assurances over the future of the Māori Land Court is disappointing, given he is spearheading contentious Maori land reforms which will impact on the functions of the Court, ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Kiwisaver contribution holiday not the break workers were looking for
    The number of working New Zealanders needing to stop Kiwisaver payments is another sign that many people are not seeing benefit from growth in the economy, says Grant Robertson Labour’s Finance spokesperson. "There has been an increase of 14 ...
    2 weeks ago
  • Fight Club failings
    The Corrections Minister must take full responsibility for the widespread management failings within Mt Eden prison, says Labour’s Corrections spokesperson Kelvin Davis. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Rethink welcomed
    The Labour Party is pleased that Craig Foss is reconsidering the return of New Zealand soldiers buried in Malaysia, says Labour’s Foreign Affairs spokesperson David Shearer. “For the families of those who lie there, this will a welcome move. The ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Disappointment over UN vote
    Helen Clark showed her characteristic drive and determination in her campaign to be UN Secretary General, and most New Zealanders will be disappointed she hasn't been selected, says the Leader of the Opposition Andrew Little. "Helen Clark has been an ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Māori need answers on Land Court job losses
    Māori landowners, Māori employees and Treaty partners need answers after a Ministry of Justice consultation document has revealed dozens of roles will be disestablished at the Māori Land Court, says Ikaroa-Rāwhiti MP Meka Whaitiri. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Key’s ‘efficiencies’ = DHBs’ pain
          John Key’s talk of ‘efficiencies’ ignores the fact the Government is chronically underfunding health to the tune of $1.7 billion, says Labour’s Acting Health spokesperson Dr David Clark.       ...
    3 weeks ago
  • More than 1,300 schools to face budget cuts
    The latest Ministry of Education figures reveal thousands of schools will face cuts to funding under National’s new operations grant funding model, says Labour's Education spokesperson Chris Hipkins. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Speculation fever spreads around country
    House prices in Wellington, Hamilton and Tauranga are going off as a result of uncontrolled property speculation spilling over from the Auckland market, says Labour’s housing spokesperson Phil Twyford.  “Speculators who have been priced out of Auckland are now fanning ...
    3 weeks ago
  • New Zealand lags on aid targets
      The National Government needs to live up to its commitments and allocate 0.7 per cent of Gross National Income on development assistance, says Labour’s spokesperson on Pacific Climate Change Su’a William Sio.  “The second State of the Environment Report ...
    3 weeks ago
  • War on drugs needs more troops
    The Minister of Police must urgently address the number of officers investigating illegal drugs if she is serious about making a dent in the meth trade, says Labour’s Police spokesperson Stuart Nash.  “Answers from written questions from the Minister show ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Doctors strike symptom of health cuts
    The notice of strike action issued by the junior doctors today is the result of years of National’s cuts to the health system, says Labour’s Associate Health spokesperson Dr David Clark. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Government starves RNZ into selling Auckland asset
    Just weeks after TVNZ opened its refurbished Auckland head office costing more than $60 million, RNZ (Radio New Zealand) has been forced to put its Auckland office on the market to keep itself afloat, says Labour’s Broadcasting spokesperson Clare Curran. ...
    3 weeks ago
  • Government must be more than a bystander on the economy
    Despite what he might think John Key is not a political commentator, but actually a leader in a Government who needs to take responsibility for the conditions that mean a rise in interest rates, says Labour’s Finance Spokesperson Grant Robertson.  “John ...
    3 weeks ago