Open mike 01/10/2023

41 comments on “Open mike 01/10/2023 ”

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1. Sanctuary 1

   1 October 2023 at 7:59 am

   "Yes, but apart from that what did you think of the show Mr. Lincoln?" moment from Stuff as we are told how wonderful Saudi Arabia is, as long as you don't miss habeas corpus, can overlook extra judicial state murder of dissidents, feel the routine use of indiscriminate torture doesn't apply to you, think the 24,000+ Houthi killed in Saudi air attacks probably had it coming, regard the right to protest as a silly western idea, actually love misogyny as state policy, and consider despotic theocracy a reasonable form of government…

   Dollars to donuts Bridget Dunn git a nice little stuffed Manila envelope for that piece.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/kiwi-traveller/300971717/expat-tales-the-truth-about-life-in-saudi-arabia-according-to-a-kiwi-who-lives-there
   • joe90 1.1

     1 October 2023 at 9:49 am

     …the most generous and welcoming people.

     /

     Saudi border guards have been accused of killing hundreds of Ethiopians using small arms and explosive weapons in a targeted campaign that rights advocates suggest may amount to a crime against humanity.

     https://www.theguardian.com/law/2023/aug/21/fired-on-like-rain-saudi-border-guards-accused-of-mass-killings-of-ethiopians
   • Grey Area 1.2

     1 October 2023 at 11:09 am

     I tried commenting to this puff piece for the House of Saud but funnily enough it hasn't been published. I toned it down but questioned what alternate reality this piece came from when there is no hint of the dark side of Saudi Arabia.

     I didn't mention the irony (right term?) of the headline that this was: "The truth about life in Saudi Arabia according to a Kiwi who lives there".

     When Ms Dunn was asked what the biggest disadvantage of living in Saudi Arabia was she said: "People who've never visited have strong preconceptions about the country. Convincing them to change their minds takes time."

     Got it. We're the problem. The issue is not a blindness to reality on her part then.

     I will wonder now about the censorship moderation on Stuff whenever I see (as I still do now on this piece): "There are no comments yet. Why don't you write one?"
     • Dennis Frank 1.2.1

       1 October 2023 at 11:37 am

       Outsider is an extremely influential social archetype. When circumstances treat someone as such, pondering the meaning of the experience is natural. Systems often incorporate gate-keepers for quality control. Robotic dysfunction happens too.

       Lacey's House of Saud book was an eye-opener way back when. The role played by the bin Laden family is an interesting dimension, with Osama as naughty boy.

       According to the International Organisation of Migration, more than 750,000 Ethiopians are living in Saudi Arabia, 450,000 of them without proper documents. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopia%E2%80%93Saudi_Arabia_relations

       When most folk are not a card-carrying member of X (x=group) they participate in the category natural whereas card-carriers do so in the category official. Big-picture views of the cultural reality must integrate the dualism to be credible.
2. PsyclingLeft.Always 2

   1 October 2023 at 9:42 am

   Change of government a threat to 200,000 people's Fair Pay Agreements – union

   The first industries in the upcoming negotiations include hospitality, grocery supermarkets, security officers and guards, commercial cleaners and early childhood education workers, with negotiations for bus drivers slightly ahead of the pack.

   Tradtionally…Hospo, Cleaners and others…have been treated "mostly" like shit by employers. Min wage,On call, etc..

   BusinessNZ chief executive Kirk Hope opines…

   "I think it's significantly wasting people's time," Hope said.

   there would be better ways to deal with vulnerable workers in particular sectors."

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business/495299/change-of-government-a-threat-to-200-000-people-s-fair-pay-agreements-union

   Really Kirk ?..we know just how vulnerable Workers have been treated.

   On that….David Seymour lays it all out…

   Instead of Fair Pay Agreements, which the party's leader David Seymour called "anti business" policy, it would be "supporting freedom to contract".

   "'Fair pay' agreements amount to compulsory unionism that will reduce productivity and make it harder for employers to grow their businesses. ACT will get rid of them immediately.

   https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/499093/act-s-business-plan-removing-january-holiday-putting-minimum-wage-on-hold

   Any Worker..should be voting Left as if their Future depends. Because it does!
   • Barfly 2.1

     1 October 2023 at 1:03 pm

     New Zealand is a funny old place –

     A TMP candidate has her house broken into and threats left

     A Labour MP gets slapped around by some RW arsehole while campaigning

     Yet David Seymour has seemingly no pushback after his threats and attacks on Superannuatants, drug addicts, the mentally ill and minimum wage workers. Apparently emboldened by this he now promises to strip employment rights from New Zealand workers.

     Is it that the man's narcissism is so powerfull that it is inconcevible to him that his safety may be compromised by his own actions? Or is it just that Seymour is actually well aware that the politically violent are pretty much all on the Right Wing? (IMO it's the latter)
     • AB 2.1.1

       1 October 2023 at 1:59 pm

       The latter mainly. And because he knows that if he is threatened it will be given wall to wall media coverage with no slippery "all sides do it" equivocation to obscure the truth. He will then grandstand endlessly about it and use it as an excuse to plan even more punitive attacks. .
       • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.1.1

         1 October 2023 at 2:30 pm

         That could well be. Wouldnt be the first time a fascist….right wing party did something like that : (
     • PsyclingLeft.Always 2.1.2

       1 October 2023 at 2:23 pm

       As you say, I think he has Narcissism at such a level..that he has absolutely no care of what the effects will be. Just watching him ..there is a palpable disconnect…between his words and the effects of same.

       "Guy Fawkes"…amongst many others. IMO a dangerous person.
3. Dennis Frank 3

   1 October 2023 at 10:46 am

   There's this triad driving politics: left/right/other. The counter-culture was always other. This excellent review provides an authentic glimpse of othering as lifestyle dissidence: https://www.newsroom.co.nz/book-of-the-week-hippies-nude-and-useful

   In 1980 or thereabouts I passed the author at the Tahuna Farm commune, and then at another community at Graham Downs commune where my father and sister lived. In both places, Olive Jones appeared at the centre of things, a "key person", as she describes it in her new book Commune: Chasing a utopian dream in Aoteoroa. I was just out of adolescence.

   Olive was magnetically androgynous, seriously can-do, an Amazonian other. She was very visibly a pioneer of the rural counterculture. I sensed she possessed agency, although we didn’t call it that then. ‘Assertive’ was the aspiration for young, would-be feminists of my generation.

   From less than 1% of the whole when I jumped aboard in '68, back to the landers trended above 5% by the late '70s then emerged as Green ethos in politics the decade following.

   a core membership of those who wish to create alternative ways of living and being from the ground up; international itinerants on the word-of-mouth-circuit, and those on the outer fringes of society with nowhere left to go – the needy and the opportunist.

   Triadic framing of the communards like that is sociological.

   Here she is usefully spelling out the math: "The price of a fuck in the mid-1970s was around $60. And that was for less than half an hour of contact, often only 10 or 15 minutes, tax-free. It was an immense sum of money when you compared it with the average hourly wage for unskilled labour, which was around $5 before tax." Ultimately, she becomes ambivalent about prostitution. Its splitting of love and intimacy from sex finally bugs her too much to continue.

   The cost/benefit analysis of sex is another useful triad: the slash symbol represents the mental blend in our decision-making process, thus 3 as archetype emerging in the coming together of the binary. Family is produced by 3 if child happens from the binary sex act.
4. Dennis Frank 4

   1 October 2023 at 1:07 pm

   The splitter is an extremely influential social archetype: it has fractured christianity into upward of 40,000 sects since the disintegration of the original monolith (catholic).

   The mass psychology driving the archetype into cultural process is here:

   Splitting (also called black-and-white thinking, thinking in extremes or all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together the dichotomy of both perceived positive and negative qualities of something into a cohesive, realistic whole. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splitting_(psychology)

   The exclusive nature of the thinking used (my way or the highway) is opposed by communal thought (inclusive) which generates community and human groups.

   Inside or outside the tent is a perennial question for players & groups in politics. MMP changed us up a gear, then pointed us toward transcendent collaboration. That means finding common ground upon which to proceed. That will feature in the aftermath of the election, whichever way it goes.

   To transcend a dichotomy, players must imagine a preferable third alternative to the binary views of partisans: big-picture thinking. The triad created mentally by the user gets transcendence from the framing organically: cohering players into group. The wiki definition cited above describes how holism transforms group process into system, producing "a cohesive, realistic whole." Candidates, representatives and activists cohere when grounding themselves in collective reality. This is the deep Green view of politics.
5. Vivie 5

   1 October 2023 at 1:55 pm

   I watched Q and A this morning. https://www.tvnz.co.nz/shows/q-and-a About 20 minutes in Jack Tame interviewed James Shaw, and put forward a scenario of National forming a coalition with either Act, New Zealand First or the Greens. Tame commented a few times that Labour and the Greens won't be able to form a government. Tame repeatedly asked Shaw whether the Greens would form a government with National. Tame came across as very biased towards National and almost hectoring. Shaw replied that the polls have been inaccurate in previous elections, repeatedly commented that the Greens want to form a government with Labour, and that voters will again determine the outcome this election outcome.

   It seems the media have been instructed to present a supposed forgone conclusion that National will form the next government. The media's negative attitude towards Labour has accelerated over the past couple of years, even more so this year. Presumably this is linked to the huge amounts of donations to National from the business sector which provides funding for advertising, and the vested interests of high earners and many in the real estate, business and farming sectors.

   The media's analysis of National’s evidently failed fiscal plan as confirmed by various economists, https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/election-2023/497974/economists-analysis-rubbishes-national-s-foreign-buyers-tax-numbers has been mainly superficial. Why has National not been challenged in detail on the detrimental effects of their policies on beneficiaries, low and many middle-income workers, the inevitable increased house prices resulting from non-residents being able to buy properties, the vastly overestimated tax revenue from these hypothetical non-residents to supposedly pay for most of the planned tax cuts, the inevitable public services cuts and the decrease in workers' rights?

   Labour's fiscal plan has been costed and endorsed by Infometrics. https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/133018004/labour-lays-down-its-financial-gauntlet-with-tight-budgets-and-a-challenge-to-national

   Prime time discussion panels with political analysts/scientists, including interviewing the relevant candidates, would likely provide more objectivity and information for voters, rather than combative interviews with current and potential MPs.
   • weka 5.1

     1 October 2023 at 2:36 pm

     Jack Tame's job is to ask the hard questions of whichever politician is in front of him, and to pressure the politician to answer the questions.

     Shaw got off lightly compared to the Winston Peters interview immediately before him. Part of the Peters interview was that Peters was being an arse, so no sympathy at all for how Tame managed it.

     I don't think anyone is instruction the MSM to believe the polls. Who would have done that anyway? It's just that a number of the political classes like to predict, and in doing so influence outcomes. It's wrong imo for Tame to state it in the way he did, but it's pretty standard, not just journalists.

     What might come across as hectoring in the Shaw interview is just Tame trying to get Shaw to be clear. Green politics can be hard to understand and while I think the Greens are better at communicating this than in the past, I think Shaw still doesn't have a succinct enough way to explain things like the wealth tax, or post-election negotiations and why he won't be drawn on speculating. He did ok, but the answers are still unusual and a bit unclear so it's Tame's job to try and get clarity.
     • Bearded Git 5.1.1

       1 October 2023 at 5:40 pm

       This is Peters train wreck interview with Jack Tame on TV1 this morning. Well worth a watch.

       I'd be surprised if he gets 5% after this-his voters watch TV1.
       • AB 5.1.1.1

         1 October 2023 at 6:40 pm

         Admire your faith in the rationality of his supporters BG. You’re a better person than me. I'm cynical enough to think it will only shore up his base support.
         • Bearded Git 5.1.1.1.1

           1 October 2023 at 6:44 pm

           Haha, we shall see-do you want a pint on it? I'm calling NZF below 5 per cent now. Peters has lost a few of his marbles.
           • weka 5.1.1.1.1.1

             1 October 2023 at 6:50 pm

             I really hope you are right. I suspect that many of NZF fvoters watching that will see Peters as hard done by the MSM and he's the under dog that needs their vote. I really hope I am wrong.
       • Belladonna 5.1.1.2

         1 October 2023 at 9:06 pm

         I was horrified (though not surprised) by Peters doubling down on the implied threat to an independent media later in day

         Speaking from Papakura High School, Peters rejoiced the fact that journalists were regularly turning up to his party’s events.

         He then called on a camera operator to focus on him while also sending a message to media organisations.

         “I’ve got news for them and it’s all bad, I might be the Minister of Broadcasting.”

         https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/election-2023-winston-peters-unable-to-provide-costs-for-prison-and-aged-care-party-policies/LEFYDPNC4RADBHZ5UNWLE45C2M/

         One might just dismiss this as Winston bloviating as usual – but he has form as a vindictive operator, with the memory of an elephant for any slight, perceived or real.
         • Bearded Git 5.1.1.2.1

           2 October 2023 at 8:53 am

           Agree Bella-nasty. I am not sure the old Peters would have done this.
   • Dennis Frank 5.2

     1 October 2023 at 2:47 pm

     Why has National not been challenged in detail on the detrimental effects of their policies

     My guess is that media are reluctant to predict the future. There's been an establishment bias against doing so for more than 3 centuries, so there's substantial inertia to overthrow if you are a revolutionary aspiring changemaker.

     It can be done in contemporary society using conditional framing: you just suggest a likely outcome of implementing the policy. Journos do so often.

     You could email Jack to ask him why he didn't, but framing a discussion is the prerogative of the framer (media pro), so be polite if you want a response.

     Nothing wrong with scaremongering by opponents of the Nats, so could be he believes a forensic examination of likely outcomes of Nat policies is best left to politicians opposed to them, huh? The PM has had a go at that in the media I suggest Jack is likely to do a bit of that when the realising looms larger…
     • Patricia 2 5.2.1

       1 October 2023 at 7:31 pm

       Anyone with a memory of the Ruth Richardson "Mother of all Budgets" will know what lies ahead if NACT wins the election. In 1991 benefit reductions / Housing NZ increases to market rental / vulnerable families moved off the housing waiting list – all these caused disruption for years. As a budgeter / food bank worker during those years my work load increased substantially – many families existed on food parcels for months because of stand down penalties. I am dreading the outcome of this coming election and hope I have the energy to support my clients for a few more years to come. I have concerned clients ringing daily and all I can advise them is to make sure they, their friends and families get out and vote wisely over the next 2 weeks.
       • SapphireGem 5.2.1.1

         1 October 2023 at 9:06 pm

         Patricia 2, it’s frightening to think of what possibly lies ahead if NACT win- particularly concerning for the vulnerable/ at-risk members of society- the ones Luxon calls bottom feeders.

         As demonstrated in Jack Tame’s interview of James Shaw, the media are now treating a Right victory as guaranteed. It’s very depressing and makes me wonder how much this fair accompli mindset influences people to vote for the Right OR to not vote at all…
   • AB 5.3

     1 October 2023 at 3:08 pm

     Part of the problem is the media obsession with the horse race purely as a race. What the race is about, or means for real people, gets lost in the media coverage. It should probably be illegal to publish any political poll for 12 months before the latest date an election must be held. Then there is very little to talk about except policy and its implications.
     • Patricia 2 5.3.1

       1 October 2023 at 10:13 pm

       I am finding already that the attitude at some WINZ offices has changed and case managers are being more hard nosed about some applications than in previous months. I feel they are pre-empting a NACT win.
6. Patricia Bremner 6

   1 October 2023 at 2:41 pm

   Chris Hipkins has Covid, and could not be at the west Auckland rally. Get well Chippy.

   The Press Debate date may be changed, or a stand in called up.

   Grant Robertson?
   • alwyn 6.1

     1 October 2023 at 4:38 pm

     Why not just do it with Hipkins using Zoom?

     I'm sure they could supply a decent camera for him to give a better picture, or he could just do it from a studio in Wellington. After all he is the only one who would need to be in the room.
     • weka 6.1.1

       1 October 2023 at 5:03 pm

       he can't go into a studio for obvious reasons.
7. Anne 7

   1 October 2023 at 2:50 pm

   What rotten luck! I hope they postpone it until either later in the week or early the following week.
   • alwyn 7.1

     1 October 2023 at 4:39 pm

     Voting starts tomorrow. If they were to delay it to early next week half the population could have already voted.
     • Bearded Git 7.1.1

       1 October 2023 at 5:48 pm

       700,000 people voted in the first week of advanced voting at the last election in 2020. This represents less than a quarter of the votes cast.

       Those 700k would have been people who had already made their minds up (like me; I will vote this week).

       So it makes complete sense to postpone the press debate until early next week.
       • alwyn 7.1.1.1

         1 October 2023 at 7:28 pm

         By next week I mean the week starting Monday 9 October and by "early" I was thinking of the evening of Tuesday 10 October.

         By then 9 of the 12 days available for early voting would have passed.

         On the other hand I am not sure how much any of the debates after the first one matter. Anyone who might be swinging will probably have only watched the first one and will work on what they saw there. I doubt if the audience for any debate after the first will be that large. It is only the political tragics (like me) who watch all the debates and we have, like you, already decided on what we intend to do.
     • Matiri 7.1.2

       1 October 2023 at 6:35 pm

       There seem to be far fewer advance voting places this year, at least in my West Coast Tasman electorate.
8. Muttonbird 8

   1 October 2023 at 5:43 pm

   Question: Did National Party activists on orders from the office of Chris Bishop deliberately infect the Prime Minister with Covid-19?
   • joe90 8.1

     1 October 2023 at 6:53 pm

     The Natzi brains trust is onto it.

     The Labour spin doctors have probably told Chippy that the more he campaigns the less votes he gets, so his best option is to shut the hell up. Catching covid is awfully convenient, because it is designed to remind voters that "Labour saved everyone from covid, remember that?". All too convenient.

     [..]

     He’s given up…not a committed stalwart like Clark

     […]

     It’s likely an excuse.
     The MP that replaces him for the debates will be the one in the front seat to take over post election.
     They won’t change out leaders this close to election, but it appears 💩kins is kaka-kaput
   • SapphireGem 8.2

     1 October 2023 at 9:11 pm

     Hadn’t thought of this; wouldn’t surprise me.
9. Dennis Frank 9

   1 October 2023 at 6:29 pm

   I guess it gives his deputy the opportunity to shine. I hope his immune system deals with the invasion swiftly. Folks ought to google human microbiome if they do not yet know that each one of us is an ecosystem host!

   Some will wonder about God's will but the possibility of Gaia's will being involved is more likely to occur to anyone who's ever encompassed the new age or Green belief systems. I wonder what his own thoughts are about being taken out as leader in the campaign. There's potential for some floaters to give Labour a sympathy vote: everyone knows a fair competition is based on equity of opportunity.

   He has had cold and flu symptoms since yesterday and will be isolating for five days or until he returns a negative test. https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/499146/bugger-labour-leader-chris-hipkins-tests-positive-for-covid-19-at-crucial-point-in-election-campaign
10. Dennis Frank 10

    1 October 2023 at 7:46 pm

    James nails the Nats lack of credibility from the Green perspective:

    We don’t see the climate crisis, the biodiversity crisis, or the crisis of intergenerational poverty as separable from each other.

    Any agreement that we form with any party, to form a government, has got to ensure that we’re able to progress those things in equal measure … you cannot solve the climate crisis without bringing everyone with you and having an inclusive society and an inclusive economy.

    National has never been about that. They’ve always been about, essentially, making intergenerational poverty worse….there’s no chance on God’s green earth that [National would offer a better environmental policy to the Greens than Labour]. https://www.newsroom.co.nz/vote2023-qa-with-james-shaw

    Could have added a challenge to the bluegreens: take me to your real leader (no need to point to the fake) but asking the Nats to provide a basis for consensus would freak them out even more…
11. Muttonbird 11

    1 October 2023 at 7:50 pm

    UncleTom, Petty & the Fartbreaker:

    

    https://twitter.com/stampmemesnz/status/1708305454064181338
    • Mike the Lefty 11.1

      1 October 2023 at 8:03 pm

      You never see a photo of Simeon Brown without a fossil-fuel guzzling vehicle somewhere in the picture. Three guesses who was behind National's policy of ending the clean car rebate.
      • Muttonbird 11.1.1

        1 October 2023 at 8:13 pm

        Oh yeah, the ubiquitous Ford Raptor in the background.
    • joe90 11.2

      1 October 2023 at 8:22 pm

      Take the kid to work day.

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