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Open mike 01/07/2012

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, July 1st, 2012 - 164 comments
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Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

164 comments on “Open mike 01/07/2012 ”

  1. colin 1


    Has KKK David Garrett changed, or is he still a bully, liar and cheat.

    Garrett using many imposter names on Kiwiblog to perform public appearances, to mislead observers, causing people to fight, or dislike each other, also known as social engineering and imposters.

    An update on David Garrett cyber bullying a solo father and his child using defamation also insulting the child Garrett calls “Nipper”, suggesting violence to the father and myself after I posted a link about Kaukapkapa.
    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 6:17 pm
    I have been out splitting wood (very therapeutic chaps, it might even benefit the pest)…even after an hour or two you don’t seem to have managed to find a recent ‘Phil’s a good guy’ comment Phool….
    Hello Colin/Princetipytoe….your description of both Helensville and KKK is both very amusing and totally inaccurate (btw the only place you will find “comprising of” written is in real estate ads; are you a failed real estate agent perhaps?)…Most locals find the “KKK” abbreviation most amusing, and in fact the “KKK Hotel” T shirts are highly sought after when they are available…. black is the the most popular colour….but come on out! Introduce yourself to the fine rural folk who patronise the hotel…I’m sure you will get on fine….for a few minutes….
    I did think Phil might receive a typically warm country welcome also…but his derisive references to “Deliverance Country” and descriptions of the locals as “inbreeds” hasn’t gone down very well…They are also not very keen on Phil’s attitude to work…
    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 6:38 pm
    Jimmy: No….I regard myself as a fairly capable chap, but unlike those suffering delusions of grandeur, I recognise my many limitations…defending Phil from all the people he has insulted at the KKK is just too much of an ask….
    Interesting comment about the patrons being “woman hating lushes” though….By my reckoning about half the regulars are female…all or most of them employed outside as well as inside the home…somehow I don’t think they would have a very high opinion of Phil….
    princetipytoe (31) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 6:52 pm
    Kaukapakapa , kaukapakapa meaning , definition of kaukapakapa , what is kaukapakapa – Kau-kap-a-kap-a.Cow-Cop-A-Cop-A.Mainly comprised of farms and lifestyle blocks.Abreviated to KKK, causing upset to locals because of the Ku Klux Klan also abreviated to KKK.Found in West Auckland, near Helensville, many residents dislike being associated with the place that “comprises of many pubs and whole sale liquorstores.” And the gang “The HLV.”Some examples : Kaukapakapa

    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 6:49 pm
    “stigmating”…now there’s a new word…mind you, it is well after ” evening cones time” so I guess missed syllables can be expected….
    Bit of an expert on abortion Phil? What happened to the Nipper’s mother again?
    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 7:43 pm
    Steve: No, they don’t do that these days…held overnight perhaps, but he was gone for a blissful 48 hours or so…
    The two things we know he is guilty of (cannabis possession and benefit fraud) don’t result in remands in custody….it’s a mystery…
    Perhaps the Nipper ran away, having had enough of the shame generated by Dad? (The yoof are so internet savvy, some of the poor chap’s friends must surely have located this blog and the Phool’s ‘contributions’ to it..) Perhaps Phool was embarked on a frenzied search for his meal ticket, and didn’t have time to annoy the bejesus out of the rest of us??
    Who knows…one of life’s little mysteries
    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 8:47 pm
    Ah, Phool there you are….so do tell us…what led to the blessed 48 hours without your…ah…’contributions’ here on KB?
    Do tell….
    David Garrett (2,116) Says:
    June 30th, 2012 at 9:30 pm
    So…not keen to tell us what led to “radio silence” for two days Philly? ….but you disappoint me…
    I was expecting “shove it up yr arse”…from the man who NEVER uses ad homs, and instructs others that it is the tool of the loser…
    Come on Philly…what happened?
    What do we think customers? I think “chasing after the Nipper to get the meal ticket back” is the most likely…

    • OneTrack 1.1

      Such hate in one person can’t be healthy.

      • mike e 1.1.1

        DG is obviously mentally ill and should seek help for his borderline personality disorder. as most people with this disorder are so consumed with it they can not help themselves.
        DG exhibits all the symptoms.
        DG. stop the denial and get some help then you won’t be going round and ruining your life and others in it.

    • prism 1.2

      It would be inflammatory and low criticism to criticise Kaukapakapa by calling it KKK. A point is made better without slagging off particular groups. But that point will never be agreed with by someone with no integrity but that’s a taken for the type.

    • Alan 1.3

      Colin/princetippytoes, if i was David Garret, which i’m not, i’d be starting to get a bit worried about your obsessive stalking. Care to explain why you’re doing this?

      • colin 1.3.1


        Below is David Garrett’s first blog of this morning on Kiwi blog, “guess who” the other impersonator is?
        The other impersonator was found out who he really is and why he played his last nasty card.
        I have no obsession with David Garrett,
        However I exposed the coward and bully” David Garrett” who is an extreme cyber bully using other hidden names on Kiwiblog as well as trolling other blog sites with hate.

        David Garrett (2,118) Says:
        July 1st, 2012 at 8:08 am
        Oh dear…I really don’t want to be first…but the Great Question Evader must be pursued…
        You were asked two very simple questions yesterday phool – on several occasions by several different people (if you really believe that BB, Renderer, LAJ and others are me, you must be much further gone that I thought)
        So the questions are, again:
        1. Where did you go for what shall henceforth be known among Kiwibloggers as “The Blessed Silence” – those two days when we were free from your inane gibberish?; and
        2. What did happen to the Nippers mother ?

        labours a joke (442) Says:
        July 1st, 2012 at 8:19 am
        Ive seen mrs phool…shes got a face like a dropped pie ( much like the boy )..infact shes so ugly, ..” HOW UGLY! ”
        …she should be haunting houses.
        [DPF: 30 demerits and at 100 that is a suspension]

        • colin


          This comment below is from a honest person taking no sides of the argument.
          Cyber bulling is the cause of many suicides especially when done with a personated imposter using many names to cowardly attack a child and his father.
          thank you BC

          bc (483) Says:
          July 1st, 2012 at 2:24 pm
          Re: first post @ 8.08am by David Garrett

          To David (and a couple of others who do the same)
          Here’s what I don’t get, I am truly baffled and I can’t be the only one. You criticise philu from hijacking the general debate comments.
          Yet in the couple of days where there are no comments from philu – who gets talked about? You guessed it. (It’s almost like he was missed).
          Then in the FIRST post of the day today, who gets talked about?
          It is YOU David, not philu that has set the tone of the general debate today.
          So I have to ask, because I really need to know – WHY, David?
          Why mention him?
          Why start the day with such a nasty personal attack?
          Why do you let him get to you?
          Big Bruv and others that do the same – feel free to contribute. Honestly, you all need therapy – get it out of the system!

    • Murray Olsen 1.4

      Don’t the right wing blogs have such lovely idols? There’s nothing borderline about any disorders Garrett has – he’s just sick beyond help. The funny thing is that, from what I’ve heard, he’s not very popular in Kaukapakapa either. Maybe he should get together with Louis Crimp and start a new party.

  2. smokeskreen 2

    The ink is not even dry on the Crafar farms deal and already the buyer Shanghai Pengxin is talking about exporting genetic material from the NZ flocks to China to improve the genes through their own flocks there. This is disgusting but is not surprising. This has all the hallmarks of the kiwifruit industry which exported genetic material overseas and now these countries compete against us. What gives in this country? There seems to be no thought for the long term protection of our own interests for the benefit of New Zealanders. It is all about cosying up to overseas interests for short term gain.

    • mike e 2.1

      This stealing our intellectual property is rife amongst Chinese companies!

      • Bill 2.1.1

        I wonder where British companies got ideas that allowed them to build better ships from? Or where they acquired knowledge on cotton manufacturing?

        Intellectual property theft is rife amongst capitalist enterprises. Why single out and condemn Chinese companies as though they are doing something outside of capitalist norms?

    • Bill 2.2

      Em. So exporting bull semen from the herds (cows don’t come in flocks ‘smokeskreen) they have acquired is disgusting? How is what they propose different to the actions of any other private land owner with a herd of beasts?

      And as for Kiwi fruit. Didn’t that fruit originate in China? Chinese gooseberry?

      That aside. What makes you believe that any large company has any sense of national allegiance? They have an allegiance to the idea of making money by more or less any means necessary. You and I or individual countries are simply means to that end. And if a more profitable means is available, then you and I or any particular country is abandoned. Pretty simple really.

      • mike e 2.2.1

        bill so we should just give our intellectual property away.
        Chinese companies are stealing from every body .
        WE should be protecting our intellectual property better.

        • mike e

          Pansy Wongs husband and Jenny Shipley colluded to steal hover craft design from a kiwi inventor.Now the Chinese company has got all the development and design for nothing common practice in china.

          • prism

            mik e
            Can you give a link to info on the helicopter event, I don’t remember seeing the details of what Pansy Wong was doing.

          • Grumpy

            China is already using genetic modification to create Holstein fresians (ex NZ) that are suited to Asian conditions. Our dairy exports to Asia are temporary.

            • Draco T Bastard

              So they’ll be breeding a new type of cow? Good on them.

            • millsy

              “Our dairy exports to Asia are temporary”

              I have, for a long time belived that, in a few years, that our dairy products will have ‘made in China’ stamped on them.

              Especially when the vast steppes in China and Russia are opened up to dairy farming.

              • Bill

                “Our dairy exports to Asia are temporary”

                As is NZ as Fontera’s principle base. Y’know, all those land acquisitions in L.America? Cheaper land and labour and closer to bigger markets. Like any other company, it’s all rip shit and bust to make money. Meanwhile, I’m still confused…or maybe bemused would be a better term…as to why people see Fontera profits as somehow connected to ‘us’ in anything other than a most incidental fashion (‘Our’ exports and earnings and blah, blah) . But hey.

                • bad12

                  “The fun’ vis a vis Fonterra has only just begun with the shareholding dairy farmers having just voted to make the shares in the dairy giant trade-able outside of the co-operative, for now,and i stress the ‘for now’ bit, those who buy shares will have no voting rights in the running of the company a move seen here as a temporary measure and a sop to the concerns of many dairy farmers over control of their co-operative,

                  The non-co-operative in 10-20 years time will have no such restrictions upon a division of farming shareholders who have voting rights and a division that do not,

                  We can expect in the not so distant future to see a renaming of Fonterra into Nestle-Fonterra Dairy co-op or mirthfully perhaps the Goldman-Sachs-Nestle-Fonterra Dairy Co-Op although with that being such mouthful and Goldman-Sachs having a preference to stand in the shadows and reap the profits of the investment the former is more a probability,

                  When that little scenario comes to pass we really will have cause to lament the cost of the profits of our labour, (which will be our main and only imput in the future NZ dairy), flowing offshore, a mockery will be made of Slippery our current Prime Minister’s weasel words where He has been reported as ”not wanting to see NZ farmers as tenants in their own land”,

                  That, after the Slippery led National Government agreed to the changes in legislation required to set the ball rolling down the path to foreign ownership and control of Fonterra is laughable and carries the same currency and veracity as Slippery’s now infamous ”National wont be raising GST”, leading me to believe that anything that slippery little shyster utters as a definitive statement should have its intent reversed by all those who hear it and therein such a reversal will be found the truth….

                  • millsy

                    It is really all because Fonterra management, and various other bigwigs equate the co-op’s structure with a Stalinist Kolkhoz

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    That, after the Slippery led National Government agreed to the changes in legislation required to set the ball rolling down the path to foreign ownership and control of Fonterra is laughable and carries the same currency and veracity as Slippery’s now infamous ”National wont be raising GST”, leading me to believe that anything that slippery little shyster utters as a definitive statement should have its intent reversed by all those who hear it and therein such a reversal will be found the truth…

                    I just caught a TV advert for the Olympics. It showed John Key going on about how he was on the edge of his seat watching John Walker cross the finish line in the 1976 Olympics and yet he can’t remember what he thought of the 1981 Spring Bok Tour.

                    If anybody still believes anything that John Key says then they need their head read.

                    • Anne

                      I just caught a TV advert for the Olympics. It showed John Key going on about how he was on the edge of his seat watching John Walker cross the finish line in the 1976 Olympics

                      Read that bit and knew what the rest of the sentence and yet he can’t remember what he thought of the 1981 Spring Bok Tour. was going to be…

                      It was 5 years earlier than the Springbok Tour yet he can remember that one no trouble. The really sad bit is, there are experienced journalists and newspaper, radio and TV editors who are so incredibly naive they still believe he tells the truth.

            • weka

              “Our dairy exports to Asia are temporary.”
              Thank fucking god for that. Industrial dairy is wrecking swathes of NZ land and water that we will desperately need in coming decades. The sooner the dairy industry collapses the better.

          • Murray Olsen

            To me, it looks like Tories stole the design and probably were paid very well by the Chinese company. Tories have done well out of a Kiwi inventor, common practice in Aotearoa.

        • Bill

          No mike e, I’m not suggesting intellectual property be given away. But I don’t see the difference between Chinese companies stealing marketable knowledge and other capitalist ventures (whether kiwi or not) stealing marketable knowledge.

          If you want intellectual property to remain with peoples, societies and cultures, then you have to stop all market based incursions by predatory capitalism. And that, by the way, is not something I would not have any problem with.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Personally, I think we should just give them the bloody knowledge in exchange for other knowledge and offer to train up a few of their farmers. That way we both win and there was no need to sell our land to them to get it.

            I’m with weka – the sooner “our” dairy industry collapses the better.

        • Vicky32

          Chinese companies are stealing from every body

          I think the point he was making, is that all the hoo-ha about the Chinese bid looks like racism – and to me, it does!
          Is there any screaming when an American company buys land or businesses? No, there isn’t. Who on earth thinks Michael Fay would be better? If so, why?

      • smokeskreen 2.2.2

        How enlightening Bill that cows don’t come in flocks. Actually it was sheep that I was talking about and they do come in flocks! As for Kiwi fruit – they may have originated in China as a Chinese Gooseberry – but NZ did the research, developed it and rebranded it as Kiwi fruit and because of this development and branding it is known internationally as this today. Today’s world is profit at any cost – to the detriment of this country and many others. That’s pretty simple too really.

        • Bill

          Sheep. yup. Flocks. Not cows. My bad.

        • Bill

          And theft of a (I’ll presume) indigenous crop. Developed you say? Okay. So if a Chinese company takes sheep genes or whatever and develops that basic building block, then it’s the same thing as NZ business interests taking Chinese Gooseberries and throwing development and or marketing at it, no?

          • Half Crown Millionare

            You are talking a load of crap sunshine. If it is theft of the Chinese Gosberry so is the Pinus Radiata and the sheep and the cattle breeds we have in this country. All developed with high class farming and breeding management to give the maximum return when exported. Be it meat, wool or milk powder.
            Whether you like or not and if you can get your narrow right wing mind round it the Chinese gooseberry was IN every country – one hell of a lot in America and the ones I saw in California in the early sixties were pathetic. So it was world wide and certainly not (stolen) by NZ.

            What stopped America, China, Britain developing this. No one stopped the Chinese from developing their own fruit. No it took little ole NZ, desperate for earning overseas funds after being shut out of its traditional markets for dairy and sheepmeat products ie “Mother England ’ after the formation of the common market. It has become such a great success that other countries have tried to jump on the Kiwifruit, not Chinese gooseberry bandwagon.

            With regards to the Chinese taking sheep genes and developing them, they won’t do that as NZ is the leader in agricultural research and animal husbandry. They would sooner have us do the donkey work and then let some right wing fuckwit interested in a fast buck steal and sell the research to them.

            • Bill

              “They would sooner have us do the donkey work and then let some right wing fuckwit interested in a fast buck steal and sell the research to them.”

              In’t that what private enterprise is all about? Public monies being sunk into research and development while the profit is privatised? Wouldn’t call it ‘right-wing’ myself – just capitalist.

      • Half Crown Millionare 2.2.3

        Wow we learn something new every day. Who would have thought that cows come in herds not flocks. I would have never guessed.

    • prism 2.3

      smokeskreen Agree

    • Fortran 2.4

      I was not aware that Shanghai-Pengzin already had 100,000 sheep flock.

      Why did everybody say that they had no farming experience ?

  3. Jenny 3

    Q: When an irresistible force meets an immovable object, guess which gives way?

    A: The one that blinks first

    For those who said that it would be business as usual for the Japanese nuclear power industry. “A nuclear plant restart is a forgone conclusion, it’s only a matter of time….” was the accepted wisdom.

    But the Japanese people have yet to fully have their say.

    All eyes are on Japan. Over 200, 000 have rallied already, determined to stop any nuclear restart.

    Will this movement overrule the private investors determined to see a resumption of their profit stream?

    The nuclear industry with its fixed assetts and demanding investors is the ‘immovable object’. Conservative in outlook and set in their ways, heedless to objections, big, blind, deaf and dumb.

    For the restart and continuation of their operation, nuclear industry leaders and proponents know, that they can rely on – the institutional support of the Japannese state. “The rule of Law” backed up by the state forces, the police, the courts, the prisons, the army. But without any popular support or sympathy, will this be enough?

    The irresistable force are the people of Japan, imaginative, industrious, connected, organised, internet savvy.

    As the Arab Spring showed, the ‘irresistable force’ of the people is life afirming, innovative and mobile, expanding and contracting, but never going away, building support and sympathy all the time that it remains in existance, always reaching out to new untapped sources of support. Connected and informed by the web. It cannot be shut down except as in Syria by massive state repression, even then……

    This all augurs well for a major global defeat for the conservative powers that are deterimined on their course of sacrificing the environment for private profit.

    • Jenny 3.1

      “Makes us all unsafe” (At least I think that is what they are saying?) In any language the message is clear.


      • Jenny 3.1.1

        The Japanese Spring

        The outpouring of support shows just how angry and frustrated people are, he says. “They don’t want to feel powerless anymore. They want to make a change,” he says. “This rally was a totally new phenomenon. It’s not just an anti-nuclear energy movement, but the beginning of a large-scale protest by ordinary people, a historic people’s movement.”

        Satoshi Kamata

        The protesters included the elderly, families with children and a large contingent from the towns near the reactor. A surprising number were local government officials and members of RENGO, the 6.8-million-strong federation of labor unions. “Normally RENGO never goes against nuclear power because many members are nuclear industry employees,”

        “I’m guessing about 10,000 to 15,000 RENGO members were at the rally.”

        Satoshi Kamata

        Just as the support of trade unions sunk nuclear ship visits to New Zealand. You know the end is near when the trade unions come on board.

        (Satoshi Kamata, is a journalist and atomic energy opponent).

        • Bill

          Jenny. That quote comes from reports of demonstrations held in September of last year.

    • OneTrack 3.2

      And what is the most urgent issue facing humanity. (global warming in case you forgot). What is arguably the best replacement for coal fired baseload power stations? Modern nuclear power.

      Maybe the irresistible force is the onslaught of the changing climate and the immovable object is the idealogical opposition to a utilitarian technology which is and has been used relatively safely for many decades.

      So who is going to blink first?

      • Draco T Bastard 3.2.1

        What is arguably the best replacement for coal fired baseload power stations? Modern nuclear power.

        Wrong. The real solution is to use less power.

        • QoT

          Nonsense, Draco! The only viable solutions are the ones which dump all the potential bad side effects on Other People and allow me to go on living life unsustainably without having to think about my role in the ecosystem!

          • Colonial Viper

            Also worthwhile to look at what the energy costs of building, operating and decommissioning nuclear is.


            What the nuclear industry often leaves out: the huge amount of money, time and physical resources required to safely decommission a nuclear plant at the end of its life.

            Which is one reason why they get the operating licenses for old plants renewed over and over again well beyond a plant’s original design life.

      • prism 3.2.2

        One Track
        Your argument for nuclear power demonstrates a lack cogitation on your part and before yu do some hard thinking and learning you shouldn’t be trying to put forward ideas for policies that will impact so much on other people.

        • mike e

          Keys comment on Spains economy is like SCF on steroids
          should read
          Merrill Lynch on Steroids

      • gareth 3.2.3

        I would say that Fukishima is a far more immediate and greater threat than global warming. one good shake and we could have a global catastrophe. Which would severely impact on life for centuries. Can’t remember where I read this so I haven’t got a link sorry. But it was along the lines of they won’t have the spent fuel rods out of number four till at least 2015 and according to convectional wisdom there is something like a 90% chance of an earthquake of 6.5 and above in the next 2 years.

      • Jenny 3.2.4

        Makes us all unsafe

        Neat, organised, huge, unstoppable.


        • prism

          A quote on Radionz this morning on a dangerous state of the rods in broken Japanese nuclear plants but the company talks about doing removal work next year. The commenter thought that was too long and that it was urgent.

          Various onlookers express concern.
          Lawmakers group – http://www.nucpros.com/content/lawmakers-group-identifies-japans-most-dangerous-nuclear-reactors

          The No. 1 and No. 2 reactors at Fukui Prefecture’s Oi nuclear power plant are the most dangerous in Japan, according to a cross-party group of lawmakers opposed to nuclear power.
          Genpatsu Zero no Kai (Group for zero nuclear power), made up of nine politicians from seven political parties, ranked the threat posed by the nation’s 50 reactors on a…

          Japanese expats blog – http://fukushimaappeal.blogspot.co.nz/2012/06/japanese-diplomat-urges-un-intervention.html

          Japan Times report –
          Temperature climbing in No. 4 reactor’s pool after cooling system knocked out 1 July 2012

          • Jenny


            Temperature climbing in No. 4 reactor pool

            Tokyo Electric Power Co. said, the utility has been unable to activate a backup cooling system for the pool since operations halted at around 6.25…..

            …..The pool’s water temperature stood at around 31 degrees Celsius when the cooling system ceased functioning and was increasing by 0.26 degree per hour late Saturday afternoon, according to the officials.

            If Tepco remains unable to start up the system or its backup, the temperature could reach 65 degrees by Tuesday morning.

            • prism

              More information on the Japan nuclear ‘thing’. The ABC have a correspondent Mark Willacy in Tokyo, Japanese speaking. So good place to go for reliable comment.
              29/6 Officials withheld diaster maps
              and further down page Contamination could spell end of Fukushima fishing
              On ABC world news is a piece about TEPCO (Tokyo Electric Power Co.) directors getting a golden handshake and jobs with other parts of the company.

              Another good link

            • Bill

              No worries. All that will happen if the water boils off is that the fuel rod ignite and burn (should it be mentioned that it’s not possible to extinquish such a fire?) and release more radiation into the atmosphere than the total from all nuclear testing of the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s.

              Wonder if the heating is linear?

              • prism

                I’m crossing my fingers and toes that they can get the cooling started very soon.
                Just checked latest by Mark Willacy OKAY –
                Posted July 01, 2012 20:08:35

                The operator of the Fukushima nuclear plant has managed to restore the cooling system in a pool which holds hundreds of tonnes of spent nuclear fuel at the facility
                TEPCO says a fault caused the cooling system to shutdown and then a back up system failed to activate.
                The pool contains more than 1,500 nuclear assemblies, the vast majority of them containing highly radioactive fuel rods.
                Meanwhile, Japan is due to restart its first nuclear reactor since the crisis hit Fukushima last year.
                Hundreds have gathered near the plant in the town of Oi to protest the move, which has divided public opinion.
                Last month, prime minister Yoshihiko Noda urged support for the plant, saying a return to nuclear power was essential for the economy.
                All 50 of Japan’s plants were shut after the meltdown at Fukushima, which was triggered by a tsunami and earthquake..

                Japan nuclear all clear for now says ABC

                Note that – The No. 1 and No. 2 reactors at Fukui Prefecture’s Oi nuclear power plant are the most dangerous in Japan, according to a cross-party group of lawmakers opposed to nuclear power.
                See link on mine on Open Mike at 3 2 4 1

      • bad12 3.2.5

        Perhaps if we all had the ‘real’ facts of all the major nuclear ‘accidents’ and the long term effects on the populations and those exposed to the initial melt downs we all would not be so readily trotting out the glib ‘relatively safe’ fantasy attached to nuclear energy,

        The alternative could easily be found in the millions of hectares of unused rooftops where solar panelling could and should be used to harvest the solar energy we waste every day and which could be used to power most of any country’s electricity needs during daylight hours thus nullifying the need to generate electricity using carbon based products like coal,

        Unfortunately the ‘private’ model of ownership of one of the necessities of modern civilization based upon the raw ‘profit maximization’ model moves such ‘rooftop’ farming of solar energy further away from us all and it’s implementation will now rely more upon a complete collapse of the international model of capitalism,

        Instead of looking at the short-sighted use of solar power as a way to part heat the individual households hot water supply we need look instead to rooftop solar panel arrays being immediately converted to 240 volts and fed straight through household meters,(turning such meters in reverse),
        and from there straight onto the national grid,

        Much of the cost of present part-solar systems is that most require the storage of the electricity generated in an array of battery’s at the household level along with the switching apparatus to switch households between grid based electricity and solar panel sourced electricity,

        With a system of straight to grid based solar panel generated electricity cost is significantly lowered by cutting out the two steps of having to store the energy generated at the individual household level and having no requirement for any alteration to household water heating appliances,

        A socially based solar electricity designed to feed the energy generated straight to the national grid while reversing household power meters by the amount generated would lower the cost of electricity for all households engaged in the system and boost the general economy by freeing up disposable household income,

        The design, manufacture, and installation of a standardized system while creating much needed employment in New Zealand could also lead to export opportunities…

        • Draco T Bastard

          Instead of looking at the short-sighted use of solar power as a way to part heat the individual households hot water supply we need look instead to rooftop solar panel arrays…

          Actually, you need both. It’s more efficient to heat the water using the suns heat than first turning the suns rays to electricity (~80% power loss) and then using that electricity to heat the water which incurs another efficiency loss.

          Other than that, I agree with what you say.

          • Jenny

            Yes, but why would the fat cat investors invest in this, when they can make much bigger profits by vast coal mining operations, deep sea oil rigs, or nuclear power which are far easier to monopolise. With their huge profits which afford them vast power and reach, Oil, coal and nuclear are able to crush any competitors who threaten that monopoly. Helped not a little by subsidies and tax cus that these powerful industries are still able to wrangle out of governments, while green technologies wither on the vine for lack of investment.

            • Draco T Bastard

              There’s only one answer to that – take our government back off the corporatists.

      • Jenny 3.2.6

        What is arguably the best replacement for coal fired baseload power stations? Modern nuclear power.


        OneTrack you are either a conscious apologist for the nuclear industry, or merely one of their useful idiots. There are many rational and reasonable plans to repower our society that exclude both nuclear and fossil fuels

        The following is only one of them. I have picked it out from the crowd, as it is from a respected and generally conservative mainstream scientific journal that has a policy of accepting only scientifically rigorous and peer reviewed contributions.

        A Plan to Power 100 Percent of the Planet with Renewables

        Wind, water and solar technologies can provide 100 percent of the world’s energy, eliminating all fossil fuels. Here’s how

        Scientific American October 26, 2009


        OneTrack, I dare you to call the Scientific American liars.

        This is why I can confidently repeat that you are either a conscious liar, or a useful idiot.

        As to your question who is going to blink first? I suspect it will be those with a OneTrack, OneEyed agenda. After all they are the ones with the most to lose.

        • Jenny

          The live feed show that it is currently raining in Tokyo. Yet the crowd keeps getting bigger. Initial attempts by the police to keep the roads clear around the Prime Ministers home have been abandoned. A six lane highway and surrounding roads are now completely blocked to traffic due to the huge crowd despite the rain show no sign of leaving anytime soon.

          Could this rally turn in to mass occupation, similar to the Tahrir Square?

          How will the Japanese state deal with this crisis?

          • Jenny

            In crowd scenes reminiscent of Tahrir, tens of thousands of Japanese citizens have blocked the roads around the Prime Minister’s residence and office in Tokyo. The police have brought up riot vehicles and police helicopters hover overhead continually. But as yet the police have not attacked the crowds, or tried to clear the streets to traffic.

            Organisers have estimated the number of participants to be more 100,000. The National Police Agency which also releases estimates, was unavailable for comment.

            Despite internet coverage, in what has been described as “not normal” there has been an almost total news blackout.


    • Jenny 4.1

      “This is not normal” Transcript.

      Today is just an unbelievable day… yesterday we had massive, massive protests in front of PM Noda’s… and the news, nothing. There was very short news on Miyagi TV… not even 1 minute… nothing about size… just tried to ‘mild up’ why the people were protesting…

      No other news… almost 24 hours after the big demonstration begins and yet we don’t have news in Japan about the massive demonstration. Can you believe this?

      …the foreigner news online… Japan Times, nothing… Mainichi Daily News, nothing…

      NHK World… very short news… nothing about size… used 2 peoples’ comments…

      The media is completely failing us… This is outrageous. This is not normal what is happening in Japan. This reminds me a little bit of when I used to live in communist times. The information is not accessible… you have to see it… please go online and watch the real news…

      Presently it is coming up 6pm, will our mass media fall into line, and refuse to give any mention to this huge event. What will be their preferred lead story?

      The Katie Holmes/Tom Cruise, divorce? Surely not?

      • Anne 4.1.1

        The Katie Holmes/Tom Cruise, divorce? Surely not?

        Yes. (well, not lead story but close to it)

  4. prism 5

    The problems in Australia with a wealthy money and power mad mining leader getting control over important information providers as newspapers, on line news and probably extending to television, were just a matter of time after the Oz government wiped its media laws. This happened some decades ago. The owners of papers couldn’t own television and there was a spread of ownership. But of course everything had to be deregulated.

    Here TV7’s last day has gone. On Radionz after 9 am there was a good run down on the various hoops you have to jump through to get television of value. Also there was a comment from David Beatson about the idea of setting up a public channel by subscription and a foundation for funding or similar. I’m sure there would be great support.

  5. muzza 6

    John Carter, Lehman
    James Kemp, Citigroup
    John Key, Merrill Lynch
    Adam Kreysar, UBS Warburg

    “Part B: Members (since 1978)
    Listed by Affiliated Institution
    (Affiliations in first year of Committee membership)”

    Merrill Lynch
    Stephen Bellotti
    Stephen Kemp
    John Key
    Joe Petri

    —Its a small club the members who are part of it – This makes our PM a member of a very powerful establishment

    Yeah, Key knows exactly what is going on, and what is coming, and who he is working for!

    • It is even worse. His boss Stephen Belotti was on the committee the period before John Key and he shared it with non other than Robert Rubin of Goldman Sachs and the repeal of the Glass Steagall act which enabled the Wall street gambling banksters to join the global monopoly game with unending amounts of money printed out of thin air.

      • muzza 6.1.1

        Yes it was only a link to the names, which when scrolled through reads of a whose who of international banking criminal cartels!

        And there is little Johnny Key, just wanted to get home and save his country from all that turmoil he created, and knew was on the way…

        He is plant!

    • bad12 6.2

      Amusingly a piece on TV3 news last night showing the Germans agreeing to stop trying to socialize the losses of the Banking community was touted as ‘saving the world’,

      Trying to have me in particular choke over such ‘news’ items should be forbidden by the authorities and while i agree that the debts of the banks and their ‘bailout’ in particular should appear on the accounts of the individual banks and not on the Government debts of the country’s which are home to those banks doing so is hardly tantamount to ‘saving the world’,

      The key to the continuation of the international monetarist model lies more in the outlawing of various behaviours by the international banking communities that led directly to the current phase of the collapse of that international monetarist model and the equalization of both currency’s and minimum payments of wages for labour in all the competing trading nations,

      Of course doing the above remedial actions can only slow the inevitable continuation of global capitalism’s demise while enforced poverty is used as a tool within western economy’s to contain inflation and as an indicator of profit, loss, and efficacy of Government economic policy,

      Unfortunately for the global model of efficiency it will continue to ensure the loss in the downward cycle as those downward cycles become more frequent will far out-weigh for more and more of any country’s citizens the gains made under such a system,

      Those participating in the global free market need find a mechanism of having the 2-6% of those who are forced out of participation to be included at a level of at least a ‘global minimum wage’, how such could or would be achieved is probably a matter where the IMF provide the capital to ensure that that 2-6% of populations are engaged and obviously this would have to be achieved by the creation of debt with a large eye on the global inflation figures which would in effect be written off at source,

      Capitalism cannot survive under its present strictures,imbalances and outright frauds, either the ism will evolve or it will fail and be replaced by something else after a period of overt physical destruction mirroring what has until now simply been the destruction of ‘pixie created wealth’ of the last 30 years,

      Money can either be viewed as the ‘wealth’ of those 10-15% of populations who have benefited from both the upward cycle of the ism and the increasingly frequent downward cycles, thus giving those with such ‘wealth’ a vested interest in promoting a deliberate downward cycle simply because ‘they’ see an inherently larger accumulation of ‘wealth’ being accumulated at a particular time under the auspices of a downward economic cycle,

      Or, money can be viewed as it should be, the means by which we all trade our labour for our daily needs….

    • mike e 6.3

      The SEC head investigator was hauled before the senate commission to answer why evidence on the
      BOAML corruption evidence had disappeared he looks very Guilty to me.

  6. felix 8

    I can haz recent commentz back nao pleez?

  7. chris73 9


    Gee Bill did well (or the interviewer was pretty bad)

  8. (Banners up at Hobson St / Wellesley St intersection – just before St Mathews in the City where TV7 supporters were having their Public Meeting Saturday 30 June 2012.



    (Mercury Energy is 100% owned by Mighty River Power)

    Saturday 14 July
    Assemble 2pm at Britomart

    Time to use the MARKET against the MARKET?

    Time to have any proposed investment in Mighty River Power declared UNETHICAL – SOCIALLY AND FISCALLY IRRESPONSIBLE?

    Time to make the proposed Mighty River Power SELLOUT a disaster?


    Penny Bright
    ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

    • chris73 10.1

      Just out of interest I’m going to be buying shares as great investment opportunities like this don’t come along everyday and I like that it will also mean I actually own part of the company and by this I mean I’ll own part of it for real not own it like lefties say we own it (which means you don’t own it at all)

      Do you know if theres a minimum amount to purchase because I’m guessing $1000 worth but I could be wrong


      • Penny Bright 10.1.1

        So Chris 73 – you’re a selfish, greedy investor who doesn’t give a stuff about all those ‘mums and dads’ (and kids) who are struggling to pay current power bills and will face even higher power prices to help pay for YOUR dividends?

        Penny Bright
        ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

        • chris73

          Nope, its a good investment and my actions will mean it stays in Kiwis hands (which is what we all want)

          Far better to trust to people like me I think

          • Draco T Bastard

            Nope, wouldn’t trust you as far as I could spit you. You’ve already shown that you just don’t care for anybody except yourself.

      • millsy 10.1.2

        Do you own rental property in Christchurch also?

        Do you not agree that vital infrastructure ie electricity generations is best left in public and common ownership?

        • chris73

          No I don’t.

          I agree that partial sell offs are a good idea as long as the govt owns the majority share (like air nz)

          • millsy

            So you think that electricity infrastrucutre should be making a profit, not providing a service.

            Would you buy shares in road, schools and hospitals if they were listed?

            • chris73

              I think that if the electricity infrastructure can make a profit then those profits can be used by the govt (via majority shareholding) to fund upgrades/schools/hospitals etc etc

              Or do you think we should borrow to do that (and burden our kids and grand kids with future debt)

              I’d have to check their rate of return (or rather read what warren buffett thinks about it)

              • bad12

                So once infrastructure is sold off and the proceeds spent upon upgrading schools and hospitals how would you propose Governments of the future fund the upgrading of schools and hospitals???…

                • chris73

                  Oh ok I get it, you think the National govt will sell of the assets like Labour did.

                  While they might in future (I don’t have a crystal ball) at the moment they’ve stated they will keep the majority ownership of each SOE.

                  So this means they’ll still get dividends (albeit at a reduced rate of course) to fund upgrades etc

                  Also they won’t need to borrow as much money as Labour and the Greens will need to to do the upgrades (because of the partial sell off) and thus not have to pay as much interest back

                  Also this will encourage people to invest in secure investments and not dodgy finance companies

                  Hope this helps 🙂

                  • felix

                    chris, just a couple of things there.

                    1) You weren’t asked what you think the govt will do, you were asked what you think they should do.

                    And seeing as how you acknowledged, just two comments above, that we can fund schools and hospitals from any profits that our energy companies generate, it makes no sense to tell us you also want us to cut the amount of profit that can be used for schools and hospitals by half.

                    So which is it? Either our schools and hospitals would be better with half the funding, or you want them to be worse. It’s one or the other and you can’t have it both ways. Do you want more and better schools and hospitals or worse and fewer schools and hospitals?

                    2) The rest of your waffle about borrowing has been addressed many times and the numbers are against you. It’s cheaper to borrow and pay interest than it is to lose our dividend stream. You already know this, assuming you can read and count, so by attempting that argument you run very close to admitting that you’re a liar.

                    Do you have any new way of counting which demonstrates that the 4% return from our energy companies or not?

                    Again, you can’t have it both ways, either you want us to pay more or you want us to pay less.

                    Couple of straight questions for you there, won’t be holding my breath waiting for straight answers from you though.

              • muzza

                “Or do you think we should borrow to do that (and burden our kids and grand kids with future debt)”

                –Do you understand that there has not been an audit of NZ’s debt before, and that as a sovereign nation, NZ is able to issue NZ currency for those schools and hospitals you refer to?

                They wont be paying off the debt either, as no-one knows exactly what our debt actually is, nor the amount of interest we are paying every year just to service it.

                Also reads as though you think there is a difference between those who were part of the Labour party in the 80’s, and those doing the selling now mate, here is s tip, they are the same people pulling the strings.

                Reads to me as though you are just taking an opportunity Chris, which you can’t really fault, but you need to examine some of your ideas, I suggest some reading is in order, because your kids will go the same way as the rest with that sort of attitude!

                Its all a fraud C73, all of it!

      • mike e 10.1.3

        such a good investment should stay in government hands and help over the longer term but you and goldman sachs will gouge the majority of taxpayers for your own benefit corporate welfare.

        • chris73

          Believe what you want but in a couple of months time I’ll own part of the company which means that I’ll be able to make money from dividends (which I’ll use to invest in more shares), be able to borrow money from the bank (using shares as collateral ), be able to sell shares at a later date (if I so choose)

          Hell I’ll even be taxed on the profits thus providing more money for the govt whereas you lot can say you already own the companies just not get any benefit from it

          Good luck with that

          • millsy

            “.. whereas you lot can say you already own the companies just not get any benefit from it”

            The benefits are we get a decent power intrastructure network for the public good.

            Or are you against anything being a public good.

            DO you want to flog off our schools, water networks, roads, rivers, lakes, railways, hospitals, parks, etc?

            • chris73

              “The benefits are we get a decent power intrastructure network for the public good.”

              – This isn’t the Labour party this is National which means they told the electorate before the election and more importantly will keep a majority shareholding or do you think the business model of air nz is bad and if so should the next labour govt promise to buy back the rest of the shares?

              “DO you want to flog off our schools, water networks, roads, rivers, lakes, railways, hospitals, parks, etc?”

              -As long as the govt maintains majority control I’d be happy to look at other examples on a case by case basis

              • millsy

                that’s a ‘yes’..

                • chris73

                  case by case basis means exactly that

                  • RedLogix

                    And going by the criteria and logic you have applied so far, a ‘case by case basis’ can pretty much be interpreted as a ‘yes’. At the very least in principle.

                    And your naive faith in the power of a ‘majority shareholding’ is touching. Really.

                  • millsy

                    No, it means yes. You refused to rule out support privatisation of the above.

                    • chris73

                      Let me break it down for you:

                      “As long as the govt maintains majority control”

                      ” I’d be happy to look at other examples ”

                      “on a case by case basis”

                      Doesn’t mean yes, doesn’t mean no it means looking at each case separately

                      Can’t make it any more simpler then that

          • Penny Bright


            Perhaps you missed this Chris73?

            Rather than hawk off shares in essential public services – strategic public assets such as the supply of electricity – using the bogus excuse that the money is needed, how about saving BILLION$ by CUTTING OUT THE CONTRACTORS dependent on CORPORATE WELFARE?

            PRESS RELEASE: Independent Candidate for Epsom Penny Bright:

            “How many billion$ of public monies could be saved by ‘CUTTING OUT THE CONTRACTORS’?

            3 November 2011

            Where’s National’s ‘corporate welfare’ reform?

            Which of the maor political parties are pushing for ‘corporate welfare’ reform and shrinking the long-term dependency of the private sector on our public monies?

            Where is the ‘devilish detail’ at both local and central government level – which shows EXACTLY where our public rates and taxes are being spent on private sector consultants and contractors?

            Why aren’t the names of the consultant(s)/ contrators(s) – the scope, term and value of these contracts, published in Council or central government Annual Reports – so this information on the spending of OUR public monies is available for public scrutiny?

            Where are the publicly-available ‘Registers of Interests’ for those local government elected representatives, and staff responsible for property and procurement, in order to help guard against possible ‘conflicts of interest’ between those who ‘give’ the contracts and those who ‘get’ the contracts?

            Where’s the ‘transparency’?

            Given that New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be the least corrupt country in the world – along with Denmark and Singapore, according to Transparency International’s 2010 ‘Corruption Perception Index – shouldn’t we arguably be the most transparent?

            Going back a step – where are the New Zealand ‘cost-benefit’ analyses which prove that the old ‘Rogernomic$ mantra – public is bad – private (contracting) is good’ can be substantiated by FACTS and EVIDENCE?

            At last – someone – somewhere has actually done some substantial research – which proves the opposite.

            That ‘contracting out’ services that were once provided ‘in-house’ is actually TWICE as expensive.

            “USA Project On Government Oversight (POGO)[1] decided to take on the task of doing what others have not—comparing total annual compensation for federal and private sector employees with federal contractor billing rates in order to determine whether the current costs of federal service contracting serves the public interest.

            Executive Summary

            ………………………………. ”

            You’re not a long-term ‘corporate welfare’ beneficiary are you Chris73?

            Just asking nicely, in a caring way? 🙂

            Penny Bright
            ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’


            • chris73

              Sorry but too much information for me to be bothered with reading. I’m sure it made some salient and insight points though.


          • felix

            “I’ll be able to make money from dividends (which I’ll use to invest in more shares), be able to borrow money from the bank (using shares as collateral ), be able to sell shares at a later date (if I so choose)”

            Oh wow, those are exactly the same things that the rest of us as a society will lose!

            So weird!

            • chris73


              So my buying shares means you and others won’t be able to because only I’m allowed to?

              Or do you mean you can take the shares in the power company that you “own” already and make profit from them and me buying shares will stop you from doing that?

              Please help me out here.

              • felix

                Yep, whatever part of Mighty River Power that you own in a few months is a part that the rest of the country no longer owns.

                Have you never owned anything before? How did you think it worked?

          • Kotahi Tane Huna

            This exchange illustrates why it is so important that the next government repossess our property without compensation So that this parasitic behaviour is not rewarded.

            • chris73

              Uh huh, shares are offered, I buy said shares and that makes me a parasite.

              Right and tell me how much investment from overseas would come into NZ if govts started doing that.

              This is why people like you shouldn’t be inor anywhere near in charge (or didn’t you wonder why Labour aren’t talking about doing it)

              • Colonial Viper

                Right and tell me how much investment from overseas would come into NZ if govts started doing that.

                We need overseas investment which builds new capabilities and technologies for us from scratch.

                We don’t need overseas investment which simply occupies what is already built. Whether its a dairy farm or a hydrodam.

                • Murray Olsen

                  The term “investment” doesn’t mean what it used to. As you say, buying assets so that any profits end up overseas is not really investment. The word “developer” has also had its meaning perverted under the new paradigm.

          • Penny Bright


            Penny Bright
            ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’


      • Murray Olsen 10.1.4

        If you have to ask what the minimum package costs, why are you a Tory? Stupidity is an acceptable answer, but there may be others.

        • chris73

          You’ll be surprised to know that as a right winger we don’t automatically get updates on all financial matters.

          In this instance I haven’t heard about whats happening because I’m guessing it’ll take a few months to sort out the details and there’ll be heaps of information advertised but I could be wrong

          Penny, however, is obviously invested in whats happening and so probably knows more about whats happening then I do so I thought I’d type a question.

          You might think I’m stupid for asking a question you assume I should know but I find that asking questions increases my knowledge

          But hey each to their own I guess

    • Logie97 10.2

      A twist on Kiwi Saver (that Socialism by stealth scheme).

      What was the rush to pass the State Assets legislation?
      Well, guess what, all those over-65s who joined the Kiwi Saver scheme 5 years ago will soon be able to commute their $20,000 plus and, now let’s see – where can we put that money?
      OOH we can become Mum and Dad investors. Instantly popular with the government too.

      • bad12 10.2.1

        Easy to see why the call went out recently for the compulsory contributions to be raised right?,

        15,000 will soon be eligible to take their monies out of ‘kiwisaver’, that number will begin to increase year on year with 50,000 having the ability to withdraw in the next 2 years,

        Such a ‘retirement fund’ looks great on paper but what happens when things as they do go wrong, go so badly wrong as the Global Financial Crisis???,

        My view, based admittedly upon crude mathematics while not having access to the relevant fund managers actual figures is that BECAUSE of the continual ongoing trauma within both global financial and share markets many of these schemes are going to be found wanting,

        Mere Ponzi-scams where to pay out the increasing number of people in such schemes and eligible to remove their monies they must either continue to attract large numbers of those putting capital in OR contributions must continually be raised on a half decade basis,

        It’s easy to see why the group representing those who provide the management of these retirement funds recently called for Government to offer a guarantee on them much the same as the financial sector fiasco…

      • mike e 10.2.2

        socialism by stealth what bull shit it user pays idiot user provides how dumb are you

  9. Logie97 11

    Demise of TVNZ 7.
    One might wonder to what extent Steven Joyce (and his connections with the Radio Works “network”) are involved in the wind-back of State Broadcasting.

    • mike e 11.1

      when they get rid of John Campbell they will have succeeded in wiping out all balance journalism in this country and in australia

  10. captain hook 12

    this national gubmint is a collection of individuals with short term horizons about everything, no culture, no taste. IN short barbarian philistines masquerading behind slogans so real people wont be able to see that basically they are braindead.
    all they really care a bout is hotels jets cars and having their bums kissed by sycophants and thats it.

    • chris73 12.1

      “all they really care a bout is hotels jets cars and having their bums kissed by sycophants and thats it.”

      Sounds like the previous Labour govt

      • Murray Olsen 12.1.1

        Small minded businessmen and other sycophants don’t care whose bums they’re kissing, as long as it’s the party in power and they think they can get some personal benefit from it. I’m guessing that this explains your knowledge of the act with the previous Labour govt.

  11. prism 13

    I like Scoops headline Steven Joyce’s bureaucratic white whale empire has surfaced with the Ministry of Business, Innovation and Empire (MoBIE). He is the Dick in Moby Dick I imagine.

  12. prism 14

    Closing down TV7 – Broadcasting Minister Craig Foss should have ‘flossed his teeth’ – he lies in his teeth which are false like all other BuMs in past years who have said that we can’t have/afford public television.
    Claire Curran points out that Labour allowed a budget for public service offerings.

    Dr. Peter Thompson is a senior lecturer in Victoria University of Wellington’s Media Studies Programme link – http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL1206/S00194/public-disservice-broadcasting-the-shameful-demise-of-tvnz7.htm

    Comment by David Beatson on pundit

    Radionz –
    A group opposed to the axing of TVNZ7 is to lodge a complaint against TVNZ with the Ombudsman.The station was switched off at midnight on Saturday.
    Save TVNZ7 spokesperson Myles Thomas says the State broadcaster has neglected its legal duty to consider public interest when deciding programme content.
    He says the group has received legal advice which indicates TVNZ has a case to answer.
    The group hopes to lodge the complaint this week

  13. joe90 15

    Another victim of the theist filth. It’s horrifying to know that these people are only an election away from terrorising the rest of the world. .

    Reason # # to despise religion.

    • muzza 15.1

      “Reason # # to despise religion”

      — Religion is not the problem

      • Te Reo Putake 15.1.1

        Oh, yes it is. The next big step in the maturing of the human race is the end of religion. Sadly, I think we are doomed to a generation or three more of adherence to the various orthodoxies, but at least organised religion is clearly dying in the west. It’s a healthy start on the road to a peaceful future.

        • muzza

          “It’s a healthy start on the road to a peaceful future”

          –Religion is not the problem, people, and how they use it are the problem…And let see about that peaceful future you indicate might be possible without religion..Ill tell you now, it wont be what your blue sky dreaming might imagine.

          Religion wont die out, not a chance, but if we do end up with no religion, then that will be on the back of a global government banning it, so if thats what youre into, you will get something you never imagined at that point!

          • Te Reo Putake

            Whatever, muzza. All I know is the belief in pixies should end in childhood. That we still have widespread adherence to religion suggests that the human race is not yet mature. But we are on the way.
            I like the sound of the world government you suggest, though. Could be the answer to nationalism, the second most murderous belief system after god worshipping.

            • muzza

              Tolerance is really all it takes to get through life, as opposed to being certain that there is, or is not something else, whatever that may be. Let people believe in what they want, you are free not to, that is the choice we all have.
              Taking a position on it, and then hoping that it comes to fruition, as evidence of some sort of coming of age for the human species is naive in the extreme, even by your standards.

              Ill assume your global government comment was made from pure ignorance!

              • Te Reo Putake

                But it’s not ‘free’ is it? My tax dollars help silly cults like Pope Brian live in splendour. I’m subsidising Scientology as well, which pisses me off, too. But the real damage is war. End religion and you eliminate one of the major motivators for global violence.
                “Ill assume your global government comment was made from pure ignorance!”
                Nah, just having a laugh, thought it’d get you going!

                • muzza

                  ” End religion and you eliminate one of the major motivators for global violence.”

                  –Only in the mind of a simpleton!

                  Agreed about Tamaki and his ilk, who are nothing more than crooks and opportunists. That said, he is also being used, by a system which requires, and indeed allows his type to operate, for some perverse reason. Again, religion has little if nothing to do with anything there, its exploitation via a vehicle, which is taking advantage of those who might be religious!

                • Vicky32

                  But the real damage is war. End religion and you eliminate one of the major motivators for global violence.But the real damage is war. End religion and you eliminate one of the major motivators for global violence.

                  I know you’ve seen the article someone posted here months ago, that somewhat proves the opposite! At the time you threw a tanty about it…
                  Hold on while I see if I still have it on my computer…
                  Ah, I have it, but as a PDF, and not a link. In the meantime, here’s an extract. Enjoy!
                  “One organising feature of this article is what it calls the ‘Religious War Audit’. BBC asked us
                  to see how many wars had been caused by religion. After reviewing historical analyses by a
                  diverse array of specialists, we concluded that there have been few genuinely religious wars in
                  the last 100 years. The Israel/Arab wars from 1948 to now, often painted in the media and
                  other places as wars over religion, or wars arising from religious differences, have in fact been
                  wars of nationalism, liberation of territory or self-defence.”

        • Tiger Mountain

          Great comment TRP. “God delusion” adherents have long been a handbrake on social progress.

          • muzza

            If you think thats a great comment, youre about as clued up as the one who calls himself the voice of reason, which a just a joke really!

            • Te Reo Putake

              High praise, indeed, muzza. I’m proud to be honoured with that comparison!

        • Bill

          You see the expression of your own faith there Te Reo Putake? Speculating on future scenarios is intrinsically religious I’m afraid.

          • Te Reo Putake

            Er, no, it isn’t, Bill. Can you expand on your thinking a bit?

            • Bill

              Your speculations are built on articles of faith…faith that it will be this, that or the other way. Just change the object that the faith is invested in (from ‘the future’ or whatever to a diety or whatever) and you are back at good old religion.

              And the difference (QOT) between the above and taking observable facts from ‘yesterday’ and assuming they will remain the same ‘tomorrow’ or in tracking observed and predictable dynamics from ‘yesterday’ into the future with a degree of certainty/uncertainty is, or should be bloody obvious.

              Give me the winning numbers for next week’s lotto based on previous winning numbers etc? Faith or appeals to augury etc.

              Give me a prediction on the next election result based on polls…or of a horse race based on form etc? Do-able with a degree of certainty.

              edit. And just in case your tempted to accuse me of being holier than thou or whatever, I do the same bloody thing ‘cept I tend to recognise it for being basically not much different to religious faith…wishful thinking in other words;-)

        • QoT

          Good gods, the wankertheists* are out in snobby ~you’re just too silly to understand faith~ force. Nothing for it but to link to The Oatmeal.

          *As distinguishable from people who merely have religious faith and don’t feel the need to proclaim its superiority on the internet. And yes, there are wankeratheists too.

          (And seriously, speculating on the future is “inherently religious” now? Someone inform Roy Morgan that they should can the phonecalls and start upskilling in augury …)

          • QoT

            Oh, nevermind, TRP just pulled the “lol you believe in magical pixies” wankeratheism tactic, so you’re all a bunch of nobs, frankly.

            • Te Reo Putake

              Sorry to let you down, will try harder in future. Don’t know what you’ve got against the pixies, though. Doolittle was excellent.

        • RedLogix

          There are two quite different things that go under the name ‘religion’.

          Science and religion can be best thought of as complementary; science being rooted in this material world of observation, measurement, deduction and logic. Religion sits at the opposite end of the human experience and attempts to inform us about abstractions like justice, compassion, dignity, purity and inspiration. And there remain mysteries of existence which should inspire in us the humility to honestly acknowledge the limits of our knowledge.

          But because there is only one universe, and one reality, logically science and religion must be describing different aspects of the same thing. Therefore ultimately they must be in harmony with each other. Where we currently see contradiction is most plausibly because our current knowledge is limited or faulty.

          Fundamentalism masquerades as religion. Fundamentalists are in fact utterly blind to the ethereal and abstract qualities of faith. In it’s place they substitute dogma, unquestioning superstitions, rituals and lies. The sole purpose of fundamentalism is social control. It is the opposite of religion.

          Now while I loath fundamentalism, I’m leery of attempts to toss the baby with the admittedly very soiled bath water. I’m not comfortable with the idea that reality can be encompassed within the limits of the human mind. Our sciences will never inform us of what I think of as the essentially unknowable. The true nature of the Creator is simply beyond our capacity to know directly.

          No more than we can ever experience directly what the temperature on the surface of the sun might feel like.

          • Draco T Bastard

            Religion sits at the opposite end of the human experience and attempts to inform us about abstractions like justice, compassion, dignity, purity and inspiration.

            That’s why we have the social sciences.

            And there remain mysteries of existence which we should honestly acknowledge the limits of our knowledge.


            • RedLogix

              I don’t have a problem with the social sciences. I see them as a part of the ‘harmonisation’ I mentioned.

              Yet it’s worth remembering that at the level of pure science, mathematics, we can know absolute truth. While as we move further away from this realm absolute truth fails; at the level of most hard sciences and technologies we work with ideas that be merely believe are ‘true for all practical purposes’ but cannot prove absolutely.

              In the social sciences absolute truth is a desperately scarce commodity, indeed much of it is merely an attempt to name and formalise what we know from moral intuition and religious heritage. Indeed by the time we get to that ultimate of social sciences, economics, nothing can be understood except perhaps in moral terms.

              • mike e

                Hey neo liberalism is a religion not based on fact but on morals of one section of society that they are blinded to fact.but is designed to keep 80 to 90% of the population following their failed Mantra

              • Draco T Bastard

                Economics breaks into two parts – the hard physical resources that need to be distributed (which modern economics ignores as it gets in the way of it’s perpetual growth) and the moral which is about who gets/controls those resources (which modern economics has theorised that the capitalists get them). It’s this latter bit that’s the problem as the result of modern economic theory is immoral – massive poverty and inequality combined with a governance system that protects it.

          • Vicky32

            Our sciences will never inform us of what I think of as the essentially unknowable. The true nature of the Creator is simply beyond our capacity to know directly.

            Seconded! Very well put…

        • millsy

          Religion was created by those in power to explain why certain things (ie natually occuring events) happened that we now know are caused by scientific processes, ie volcanoes, earthquake, crop failures, etc.

          Some people also discovered, that if they told people that they had lines of communication with the pixies that caused earthquakes, volcanoes and crop failures, they would offer them coins, a share of the harvest, and their first born daughters in return for them telling these pixies ‘not to cause them’.

          And so it went on…

        • Vicky32

          Oh, yes it is. The next big step in the maturing of the human race is the end of religion.

          As Alister McGrath points out in his history of atheism, people have been saying that since 1695! You people haven’t made much progress.
          Don’t you get that your comment makes you seem like one of those (gain I quote McGrath) “strange scruffy old men who sit in corners at libraries, annotating books, and writing letters to the editor in green ink”… 🙂
          (I think we’ve all seen men like that… the local one at the Mt Albert library, used to get the librarian and complain about my son being noisy. Said son was and is a nerd, and would never dream of making noise in a library! But the old guy had taken exception to my disagreeing with something he said once. After the first time, the librarian ignored him.) 🙂 😀 🙂

  14. Pascal's bookie 16

    Seeing it’s sunday and people are talking about religion and what not; this is fascinating:


    I’d scratch the ‘major threat’ language though.

  15. Te Reo Putake 17

    David Mitchell, of Peep Show fame, on an Iranian ‘Kill Rushdie and get 76 Virgins‘ computer game. Mitchell’s columns in the Guardian are getting better and better!

    • Ad 17.1

      Great link Te Reo. To me this gets to a nexus between theists with end-times impulses, Roy Morgan polls, socialist utopians, the general catastrophists often on this site, and the very idea of planning.

      It’s called telic drive. The will to will a future. That means, as in your link, people who are prepared to form alternative futures.

      The neurotic pleasure of Left Melancholy is a nicely restrained disappointment that reminds me that Jesus has had 2,000 years to come back and plenty of End Times moments to do it. But so far no clouds have parted.

      Nor has socialist utopia arrived or any government will the strength and virtue and longevity so many on this site wants for it. We can no longer imagine political happiness.

      All we have to roll around on our mouths is the hope of less disappointment. I recall some line from Habermas: “God is dead, but His locus has survived him. Into that dead space we now impute the future blueprint of freedom.”

      Or something like that. Fire is on here. Nursing telic melancholy on a cold Sunday.

  16. mike e 18

    Latest news Tories in massive trouble in UK with cabinet members tied up in the banking scandal with Camorons
    Budget cuts preventing an enquiry into this banking fraud all Keys mates.

  17. millsy 19

    ONZ members joining the growing calls for the NZ Super age to be raised to 67. I bet they dont have to worry about retiring.

    No one has really gone into bat for our super scheme, apart from Winston, Trotter, and perhaps the Alliance…

    I actually belive the end goal among many people calling for the hatchet to be taken to NZ Super is keep a certain part of the elderly population in the workforce…

  18. Draco T Bastard 20

    Facts you don’t find out every day:

    Cooperative and mutual businesses play a significant role in the New Zealand economy with $39.4 billion of combined revenues in 2010/11 from the Top 40 NZ cooperatives and mutuals.

    • Colonial Viper 20.1

      Isn’t it interesting how NZ’s conservative rural ag/hort sector love co-ops.

  19. bad12 21

    How the hell did Slippery get His face onto a television ad for the Olympic games, that has to be the ultimate in used-car-salesman’s desperation,

    For a moment there I didn’t recognize the smug smirk of the Prime Minister, it looked at first glance like some cheap pimp trying to sell tickets to a strip joint….

    • happynz 21.1

      Key’s gushing delivery of the script whilst wearing a bow tie is both bad and hilariously comical.

      Pity that the Olympian should have the memory of his achievement linked with the Prime Minister.

  20. Colonial Viper 22

    Global coal use up 52% in the last 10 years


    And rising rapidly.

  21. captain hook 23

    I am really pissed off.
    I watched Native Affairs on Maori TV and there was the first piece of analysis on the import of the Supreme Court putting down the Coal MInes amendment act 1903. How come none of the noters here didnt have the skinny on what was going on.
    the press is treating new zealanders like nincompoops and weare being badly let down by people that should be able to tell ordinary folk what the import of these decisions are.

    • Carol 23.1

      Is it to do with this:


      However, in the case of the Whanganui, it was determined that riparian owners had rights ad medium filum aquae. We found the law on rivers in this respect to be confused and confusing.


      First a decision in the Paki v. Attorney General case in which the descendants of the owners of five blocks of land along the Waikato River at Pouakani have claimed the Crown acquisition of the riverbed was in breach of the Crown’s duties.
      Essentially this turns on an interpretation of the river being navigable under s14 of the Coal Mines Amendment Act (1903). Where a stretch of river is not navigable, an enforceable interest to the riverbed might remain in the hands of the Maori customary owners.

      I had to google the meaning of “riparian”


      Riparian water rights (or simply riparian rights) is a system for allocating water among those who possess land about its source. It has its origins in English common law. Riparian water rights exist in many jurisdictions with a common law heritage, such as Canada, Australia, and states in the eastern U.S.

      I’m still not fully clear about the significance of this. The law & precedents are confusing to me.

  22. Pretty good post very informative topic great article.
    Smartbox self storage on demand, we deliver, you pack, we collect and store – perfect for people looking to store their furniture when renovating. http://www.smartbox2u.com.au

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