Open mike 02/02/2020

64 comments on “Open mike 02/02/2020 ”

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1. Ad 1

   2 February 2020 at 7:46 am

   What is one supposed to do with family reunions?

   I have one I go to once every three years, held on my Dad's side old family farm way up north inland from Whangaroa Harbour. Mostly consists of swimming in the big stream, a large bonfire that lasts for three days and we roll logs onto every night to keep it going, a deer on a spit, and looking after my brother who is usually gone on Cody's.

   But I have this one coming up today, down in the Waikato. Most of them have done pretty well. It's a once-in-a-century thing and involves tours of multiple farm visits, obligatory photographs, church services, and a whole gallon more people. It's going to have pikelets and cakes with volumes of cream. They've all done pretty well.

   Maybe it's a latent class thing, maybe I'm anxious I just won't measure up, but I'm a whole bunch more nervous going to this single event than the regular one on the other side of the family.

   I'm comfortable enough not caring about my tribe in the ethnographic sense, but a large part of me wants to just stay home and do jobs around the house.
   • Dennis Frank 1.1

     2 February 2020 at 8:39 am

     My advice would be to treat it as a character test. I agree with JanM though – being relaxed, going with the flow & enjoying the situation usually works best. I always find these kinds of situations test my mettle though, so I enjoy them most when rising to the challenge.

     So if the discussion turns to politics, don't shirk it. If someone gets stroppy, deflect the passive aggressive stance by being reasonable. Zen works. They get off on confrontation, so reframing them has that disconcerting effect. You can usually see them lose it & flounder. Then reassure them by acknowledging common ground – where it can be clearly seen.

     Of course we're all different and what works for me doesn't necessarily work for others. But extended family vibes are often a mix of suppressed resentments and uncertainty, overlaid with a forced bonhomie, and I discovered that steam-rolling is quite effective at transforming the communal ambience. As long as one is good at weathering whatever reactions one gets!! 😎
     • JanM 1.1.1

       2 February 2020 at 8:50 am

       Oh, the politics – he he – forgot about that! My father's family are Waikato farmers and belong to the 'would vote for a dead horse as long as it was a Nat' school of thought. I have definitely had my moments as a result. Stay off the subject – there is absolutely no point in doing otherwise. Talk tractors and the drought and what it was like 'back in the day'.
       • Macro 1.1.1.1

         2 February 2020 at 11:28 am

         Exactly. My sis is married to a farming family in the Wairarapa. Xmas there is a time to smile and nod and talk about the lambing, and wool prices.
     • WeTheBleeple 1.1.2

       2 February 2020 at 11:43 am

       A family member turned up unannounced just yesterday. She was racist several times and also made derogatory comments upon seeing my severely disabled neighbor. In a group context I could just ignore her and go talk to a cousin I like. In a one on one context it was very hard to bite the bullet. I don't mind people who are ill informed nearly so much as those who are hateful.

       I recommend alcohol, but not too much you get loose lipped. Families are challenging for a lot of us.
       • Dennis Frank 1.1.2.1

         2 February 2020 at 12:22 pm

         Yeah, sounds tricky. I'm oldest of four sons and the second one does bigotry quite readily, given half a chance. I've evolved a way of managing it but it's improvisational rather than standard. Depends how the situation feels, eh?

         Funny thing is he was quite alternative & relatively easy-going in the early '70s – before he became good at business. Human nature is endlessly diverse the way it evolves. People who turn into bigots often feed off whatever energy you give them, whether positive or negative. You get adept at disengaging, but that's a learning curve that takes a while.
   • adam 1.2

     2 February 2020 at 6:09 pm

     You could ask them when they become communists?

     The national party is in the back pocket of the CCP these days. So they must now all be communists like their lord and masters.
2. JanM 2

   2 February 2020 at 7:57 am

   Just roll with it! Eat the pikelets, talk to the rellies – especially the older ones – listen to the stories, and remember that once they've gone there's no-one left to ask. Take a deep breath and enjoy your day 🙂
   • mac1 2.1

     2 February 2020 at 9:44 am

     JanM, such wisdom.
     I'm now one of the older rellies. Last night I attended a family 21st and told a story or two.
     I was hugely impressed with the speech-making and with the quality of the people there, especially the young.
     I told the young man turning 21 that as a seventy year old, and going on the evidence of the party, that the world is turning over into the good hands of another generation or two.
     I was minded of the mystic Kahlil Gibran where he raised the issue of the parent generation being archers and the younger being living arrows- launched forward but with little control by the archer as to where the arrow might land.
     It's the fate of us older ones…… to tell the stories, and hope.
     • Sacha 2.1.1

       2 February 2020 at 10:09 am

       Arrows who want to be their own archers when they see some of the faltering aim..
       • mac1 2.1.1.1

         2 February 2020 at 10:42 am

         There's also the problem of seeing the target, shortening range and windage..
         • Sacha 2.1.1.1.1

           2 February 2020 at 10:57 am

           Plenty of windage on offer from our armchair generals..
           • mac1 2.1.1.1.1.1

             2 February 2020 at 11:43 am

             Will people see that in our badinage there is no bad in age?
     • JanM 2.1.2

       2 February 2020 at 10:11 am

       Cool! I'm a few years older than you but there are still a few around who are in their 90s. It is our fate and also our privilege. I had a precious moment yesterday teaching my grand daughter (8) to mend her own stuffed toys using sewing things going back, in some cases, to my own grandmother. She loved it – so did I
3. bwaghorn 3

   2 February 2020 at 8:12 am

   https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/119139908/renewed-and-radical-could-the-mori-party-make-it-back-to-parliament-in-2020

   MP are back and they are after private land in treaty settlements!!

   They say only if there is a willing seller ,but how long before the protestors pitch the tents. ?
   • joe90 3.1

     2 February 2020 at 9:50 am

     To be fair, in much of Taranaki this issue is a festering sore; descendants of the dispossessed dwell on the vestiges of their ancestor's whenua alongside the farms of the descendants of the professional troops and militiamen who were awarded the confiscated whenua,
     • JanM 3.1.1

       2 February 2020 at 10:13 am

       But only Pakeha – Maori were excluded from the land ballot
       • joe90 3.1.1.1

         2 February 2020 at 10:23 am

         The troops and militiamen who fought in the Taranaki wars.

         https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Taranaki_War#McDonnell's_campaign
     • bwaghorn 3.1.2

       2 February 2020 at 11:54 am

       So children should suffer for the sins of their fathers ?

       At some point the past has to be let go . It's not good for the soul to let shit fester.
       • joe90 3.1.2.1

         2 February 2020 at 12:05 pm

         I agree.

         Tangata whenua are suffering for the sins of the squatters fathers.

         So best the children of the thieves let go of their ill-gotten gains and get the fuck off stolen land.
         • Herodotus 3.1.2.1.1

           2 February 2020 at 1:45 pm

           amazing reasoning I am almost persuaded to me taken along with your position😉

           perhaps some should take a little time an invest in some background to the issue, and note the cause The Govt. current land owners are not the problem.
           https://teara.govt.nz/en/land-ownership/page-1

           [Fixed typo in user handle]
           • joe90 3.1.2.1.1.1

             2 February 2020 at 5:07 pm

             So by your reckons collective, inter-generational punishment should remain unredressed?

             http://newzealandwars.co.nz/land-wars/consequences/land-loss/

             https://teara.govt.nz/en/zoomify/33583/confiscation-map-1869
             • Herodotus …

               2 February 2020 at 9:48 pm

               Right or wrong as to how these grievances were resolved. They have been resolved by agreement between all parties So these iwi's that have settled with the govt have had their wrongs addressed.

               And your solution is to displace and wrong another (innocent) group. That will go along way to harmony 😇, bu tit does make one think.

               https://www.govt.nz/browse/history-culture-and-heritage/treaty-of-waitangi-claims/settling-historical-treaty-of-waitangi-claims/

               https://www.parliament.nz/en/pb/research-papers/document/00PlibC5191/historical-treaty-settlements
       • miravox 3.1.2.2

         2 February 2020 at 2:07 pm

         So children should suffer for the sins of their fathers ?

         I've heard several little bits of white saviour stuff since I began living in Taranaki and countless bits of straight out racism. All within the context of land confiscations. For example a thread runs something like 'Those immigrants (neighbours from India) are fine. They work to get ahead and send their children to university, not like those Māori who just want to get what they can for nothing'.

         I live in an area that is very Pākehā retiree, so this is somewhat expected (apologies to older people who don't have these views). The first one that shocked me though, was when I overheard young landscape workers next-door discussing things:

         A young Māori was politely informing a Pākehā work colleague that his views on early Taranaki history were not quite right the response:

         "oh you're THAT sort of Māori are you? – well, it's our land – what about all the dairy and stuff we gave you?"

         "Well you couldn't do it without us, you're farming on stolen land," was the frustrated retort.

         Eventually the Māori worker had to calm things down with a "nah, it's all good mate" i.e. he didn't want to cause a fuss.

         It was 2019 and that's the sort of conversation is going on with young people – the sins of the fathers are being perpetuated, albeit with ignorance and economic violence rather than actual violence. Imagine how stressful it is to get along at work – to even get jobs – when you're perceived as not being grateful enough for being given dairy, or whatever, by the white saviour after your land stolen?

         Let's not pretend descendants of the first generations of Pākehā are innocents (unaware, maybe) in the continuing disadvantage that Māori endure through the loss of their societal & economic base all those years ago.

         The sooner early Aotearoa/New Zealand history is learned by all, and political solutions are found to the shameful land confiscations, the better. Then we all might be able to move on with dignity, rather than with the suppression of dissent about the dominant historical narrative.
       • phantom snowflake 3.1.2.3

         2 February 2020 at 2:51 pm

         "At some point the past has to be let go."

         Here you have unwittingly highlighted the conflict between traditional Pākehā and Māori concepts of Time. Within Te Ao Māori the idea of linear time makes no sense; all actions affect each other, regardless of "when" they occur. The past is literally present in the present.
       • Craig H 3.1.2.4

         2 February 2020 at 4:30 pm

         It was land taken in contravention of a treaty by the Crown which is a perpetual entity, so the Crown can and should make reparations. Whether that's as land or cash is a matter for agreement, but if the Crown can obtain desired land by buying it, that's a valid option.
         • bwaghorn 3.1.2.4.1

           3 February 2020 at 2:04 pm

           So you and most of the other respondents to my post will back the Maori party to put private land up as an option for treaty settlements and open all prior settlements to re litigation
           • Craig H 3.1.2.4.1.1

             3 February 2020 at 9:29 pm

             Provided it's under the standard Public Works arrangement, sure. Not sure how compulsorily acquiring land at no loss to the current owners is out of keeping with any other compulsory state acquisition.
   • Sacha 3.2

     2 February 2020 at 10:16 am

     Can we please stop abbreviating the Māori Party to 'MP'. That has a firmly-established meaning already in our political discourse. Needlessly confusing.
   • mauī 3.3

     2 February 2020 at 11:09 am

     The great white fear – that some of their ill gotten gains might be taken from them.

     When do the farmers do the right thing…. and start back dated dividend payments to local iwi?
     • Macro 3.3.1

       2 February 2020 at 11:40 am

       Exactly.

       There are many different ways that iwi are being denied their justice and that is one glaring example. Here the Thames School of Mines sits on a site given initially to the Methodist Church for the building of a Sunday School. The old school still stands and is a Category 1 Historic place – but the original lease still stands, and the yearly fee is just $2 (One Pound) per year on a site of high value. and where the local iwi have lost all control over almost all the land – which actually was not part of the original agreement with the then Govt of the day in 1867.
4. joe90 4

   2 February 2020 at 10:10 am

   Eat the rich.

   https://twitter.com/robdelaney/status/1223577742618300417
   • OnceWasTim 4.1

     2 February 2020 at 11:05 am

     Eat the Rich – Good Movie!
5. Incognito 5

   2 February 2020 at 10:23 am

   Show us the money, Simon!
   • Sacha 5.1

     2 February 2020 at 10:25 am

     Not after where he has been stashing it.
6. joe90 6

   2 February 2020 at 10:30 am

   She thought she was among friends and the vile, racist shit came pouring out.

   https://twitter.com/AbdiTV/status/1223009401956708352
7. Sanctuary 7

   2 February 2020 at 10:41 am

   So, vale to Mike Moore. Thank you for your tireless service to our nation.
8. mauī 8

   2 February 2020 at 11:36 am

   The wonderful Farage speech to the EU:

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pt2tpCtR1fU
   • joe90 8.1

     2 February 2020 at 11:57 am

     But of course you're a fan of the economic elites' pound shop Enoch Powell.

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80JAz1PTa7Q
     • mauī 8.1.1

       2 February 2020 at 11:45 pm

       Oh no, no, no.. Joe… It is you shilling for the elites yet again.
       • McFlock 8.1.1.1

         3 February 2020 at 12:08 am

         inorite? Farage just oozes "working class", don't he. Private schooling paid for by a stockbroker dad will do that for you.
   • Ad 8.2

     2 February 2020 at 6:51 pm

     So awesome to hear this fool talk about “it isn’t just undemocratic, it’s anti-democratic” and of "power without accountability" when he's standing there as an elected MP in the European Union Parliament.

     Thankfully the British people gave him the result he deserved at the last election.
9. A 9

   2 February 2020 at 11:47 am

   Man claims to be the child of Camilla and Charles. Would be great if it were true It's time for a shake up in the palace.
10. Fireblade 10

    2 February 2020 at 2:11 pm

    Simon Bridges rules out working with Winston Peters and NZF.

    https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2020/02/election-2020-simon-bridges-rules-out-working-with-winston-peters.html
    • James 10.1

      2 February 2020 at 2:25 pm

      Great news. The left are welcome to him.

      Although this time I see him at sub 5% and Nz first not winning a seat.
      • Chris 10.1.1

        2 February 2020 at 3:55 pm

        NZF will get more support. Swing voters will see a vote for the nats as a waste and go for NZF as an attempt to keep Labour in line. That's not counting the 'Bridges is an idiot' factor which was always going to be pretty helpful to Ardern and co but this latest news seals it. So yes, great news.
      • millsy 10.1.2

        2 February 2020 at 4:11 pm

        And living standards plunge when National cut and privatise everything.
      • Muttonbird 10.1.3

        2 February 2020 at 6:33 pm

        All Blacks 3 – 0 Lions
    • ScottGN 10.2

      2 February 2020 at 2:33 pm

      I think it’s a really stupid idea and shows that National still doesn’t get how MMP works.

      Labour should be really pleased. They now pretty much have guaranteed coalition partners on their left and right flanks.
      • Chris T 10.2.1

        2 February 2020 at 4:02 pm

        Can't see any damage at all.

        If anything it is a help.

        Could you honestly see this happening after the election?

        Winston Peters – "Well I have decided to go with the Nats this time, after sueing them, and you know, given how badly the CoL has done"
    • Fireblade 10.3

      2 February 2020 at 2:43 pm

      Winston will go into full attack mode to expose the corruption within the National Party. He'll want Simon's head on a stick.
    • Incognito 10.4

      2 February 2020 at 2:48 pm

      It appears National is going for broke and there’s a good chance that they pull it off too. They’ve got ACT in the bag and if they can drive NZF under 5% – they have now given themselves a licence to kill NZF – their chances go up considerably IMO.
      • ScottGN 10.4.1

        2 February 2020 at 2:57 pm

        That only works if they can get at least 45% on their own. Anything under that isn’t going to be enough. And what’s to stop Labour gifting NZFirst a seat this time? National can hardly kick up a fuss about that given they’ve signalled their intention to do the same for ACT in Epsom. It’s all a very risky strategy. It’s possible, of course, that the Nats are looking past this election to the next one??
        • Incognito 10.4.1.1

          2 February 2020 at 3:14 pm

          I believe that 45% is imminently doable for National. I can’t see either NZF or Labour going for an Epsom-style deal and it could only work if both agree to it, or not? I also believe that National aims to win in 2020; all signs are pointing to this. Don’t forget that they do internal polling and the likes (call it ‘market research’). Lately, National’s attack campaigns have focussed heavily on Labour but we might now see an attack on two or more fronts. Steven Joyce’s piece in Stuff today was clearly aiming at the Greens.
11. Ad 11

    2 February 2020 at 2:18 pm

    Fairly bold of Bridges to rule out New Zealand First as a coalition partner.

    This version of the National Party would be a good fit.

    I'm sure his caucus has too much history of damage over four decades of fighting and betrayal.

    But surely they need the partnership to form Government?
    • ScottGN 11.1

      2 February 2020 at 2:41 pm

      The Nats seem to be taking a very long time to learn the mechanics of MMP government. If the planets don’t line up perfectly for Bridges in the upcoming election campaign he’s toast. The margins are tight and one bad week on the campaign trail could derail National’s winner-takes-all approach.
12. ScottGN 12

    2 February 2020 at 2:51 pm

    I see that Morrison has done an enormous backflip and now says that Australians in Wuhan won’t have to pay the $1000 to get on the rescue flight back to Australia. Just hours after that creep Dutton was out justifying it again. They’re claiming it was all a terrible mixup due to bad advice from DFAT in Canberra.
13. observer 13

    2 February 2020 at 3:49 pm

    We should really rule out the phrase "rule out". It means absolutely nothing.

    Imagine this scenario: election night Nats/ACT 59, Lab/Grn/NZF 61. Then we wait 2 weeks for special votes.

    During those 2 weeks would National MPs shrug, say "never mind" and wait in silence, hoping they get lucky on specials? Of course not.

    We can write the quotes now … "no U-turn, just having a conversation … need to think of good of the country … coalition has failed … National the biggest party … must respect voters … don't want another election … duty to consider all options … "

    [Please stick to your original user handle, thanks]
    • observer 13.1

      2 February 2020 at 3:57 pm

      Cool, I just changed it because a couple of people had mixed me up with another "Observer" (Tokoroa?) before. A different person. Anyway, happy to stick with it now.

      [Thanks! You are correct about another commenter using the handle “Observer Tokoroa”, but I think the distinction is clear enough. However, we can revisit this if it becomes a problem]
14. ScottGN 14

    2 February 2020 at 8:06 pm

    Bridget McKenzie the embattled Federal Sports Minister in Australia has finally gone.
15. Muttonbird 15

    2 February 2020 at 8:50 pm

    Farrar Watch:

    On Friday David Farrar had his third crack recently at intimating the government are anti-semitic.

    I'm certain he and the opposition will try to manufacture this framing between now and the election.

    Keep an eye out for it.
16. sumsuch 16

    2 February 2020 at 10:29 pm

    Says it all about Mike Moore, 50 something comments. One News described him as known for his intellect and big heart. Laughed heartily and then wondered how these fuckwits will describe Roger Douglas. Weekend crew always a bit patchy.

    Nowhere in the big media to talk intelligently anymore. That was always the way for TV since long time. And since Richard whathisname in charge of RNZ there's been a level that you can't go beyond. Or, all those who profited from the coup in 84 are in charge of the major media. And yes, you're going to social-democratic Hell. It's not how you feel, it's how the lowest feel, and being children of the Welfare State you know that in your bones so don't plead ignorance in front of the Gate.
17. sumsuch 17

    2 February 2020 at 10:39 pm

    One comment about Mike Moore! He always lived in a bubble of his own imagining.

    If you'd been dead true to the people, Mike, we'd acclaim you rightly as a first among we equals.
18. Ric 18

    4 February 2020 at 3:40 pm

    Bernie 408, Pete 380, Jo 310, Liz 277, Amy 176, rest 0

    3.39 NZ time

    https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/03/us/elections/results-iowa-caucus-democrats.html

    Pete 689 now ahead of Bernie 613 and Joe 310
    no more updates from me

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