Open mike 02/11/2021

104 comments on “Open mike 02/11/2021 ”

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1. Cricklewood 1

   2 November 2021 at 6:47 am

   Ok I'm a little confused, retail opens in Auckland next week for everybody but when we enter the traffic light system it will only he open to people who are double vaxxed?

   It doesnt really make any sense… or am I missing something?
   • Higherstandard 1.1

     2 November 2021 at 7:27 am

     You're not missing anything.

     The government is missing a fit for purpose functioning vaccination certification system – they've only had many many months to have something up and running, no doubt those responsible for it's implementation are still consulting about the name of system before getting down to actually creating it.

     We can only hope when it does arrive it is fit for purpose.
     • Peter 1.1.1

       2 November 2021 at 7:54 am

       You know it will not be fit for purpose. According to some. Regardless of what eventuates it will be slammed. That is the environment we live in.

       'Journalists' will be on their starting blocks waiting to grab the first person who has a complaint, a sob story to plaster in the headlines.

       "Vaccert slammed," or damned, or scammed, or sham, or shame, or blame… It's coming, as sure as day follows night.
       • Higherstandard 1.1.1.1

         2 November 2021 at 8:13 am

         'You know it will not be fit for purpose. '

         You never know they may surprise us.
         • garibaldi 1.1.1.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 9:13 am

           It is amazing how many self acclaimed experts have all of tomorrows problems solved and remedied as of yesterday when they didn't even know about the problem in the first place.
           Anyone who thinks dealing with problems in a pandemic will go like clockwork is bonkers.
           • Treetop 1.1.1.1.1.1

             2 November 2021 at 9:50 am

             Great comment.

             Change like the wind, what can come out of a person's mouth. The weather forecast can be hard to predict and the weather is a lot more stable than a pandemic with new variants.
           • Patricia Bremner 1.1.1.1.1.2

             2 November 2021 at 5:36 pm

             Totally Bonkers!!
         • Pete 1.1.1.1.2

           2 November 2021 at 9:37 am

           But it's not about 'them' surprising us it's about the public surprising us by accepting whatever eventuates. It coming from Ardern and her government which means it automatically will not be accepted by many. It will be seen to be the worst solution possible, not fit for purpose, flawed, whatever bag of negativity you want to dip into.
     • alwyn 1.1.2

       2 November 2021 at 9:24 am

       Consulting over the name?

       They haven't got that far. They are still squabbling over which minority groups must be represented on the committee and who are the people to represent them.
       • Ed1 1.1.2.1

         2 November 2021 at 9:56 am

         Clearly you are an expert, Alwyn. Why do you think it needs a committee with representatives? So what sort of certificate would you recommend? Would it be paper, or electronic, or a plastic card? Or a choice of any of those? What expiry Date should it use? How would you prevent fraud? Does it need photo-ID? How would you issue it? How would you handle lost or stolen cards? Would you expect New Zealanders to pay for a certificate – if so how much is reasonable? Should children be required to have a certificate? If a retailer or company puts up a notice saying that all front line staff are fully vaccinated, how do I know that can be trusted? What about the new employee that day, or the back room worker who walks through the store? How would you deal with people entering New Zealand? Are you the "right" person to ask? We are all replying on you to have all the answers today – and it would be helpful if all your decisions have cross party support . . ..
         • alwyn 1.1.2.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 11:39 am

           Those are all, with the exclusion of the first one, sensible questions. The first one "Why do you think it needs a committee with representatives?" on the other hand is not, and is NOT one that I am advocating.

           I have in the past been on various committees given the job of coming up with technical standards. You would be truly amazed, and I think horrified, at how many started out with long discussions on whether the group of people being chosen showed the right mix of gender, and iwi, to meet some hypothetical pattern. Knowledge of the topic being considered didn't seem to be relevant.

           I don't have to bother with such things anymore, thank Gaia.
     • mary_a 1.1.3

       2 November 2021 at 3:36 pm

       @ Higherstandard (1.1) … for those of us who are fully vaccinated, our vaccination status is recorded on our Covid QR tracer app, which can be located and confirmed through the dashboard My Covid Record, which needs to be signed in for access. For those who do not have the app, then their card should be enough evidence of vaccination status.

       I can't see the reason to need another means of certification.
   • Macro 1.2

     2 November 2021 at 8:03 am

     Yes you are missing something – comprehension skills. You will need to be double vaccinated to enter hospitality and entertainment centres, but you will not need to show your vaccination certificate to enter retail stores unless the proprietary decide to restrict entry only to double vaccinated for the protection of their staff.

     Where we can go at Red

     • Public facilities — open with up to 100 people, based on 1 metre distancing.
     • Retail — open with capacity limits based on 1 metre distancing.
     • Workplaces — working from home encouraged.
     • ECEs, schools, and kura are open with public health measures.
     • Specified outdoor community events — allowed with capacity limits.
     • Regional boundary restrictions may apply.

     https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/covid-19-protection/
     • Bearded Git 1.2.1

       2 November 2021 at 8:28 am

       They are ACT and National voters Macro. You have to talk very slowly for comprehension to occur.
     • Cricklewood 1.2.2

       2 November 2021 at 8:56 am

       Thanks, no need to be a dick about it.
     • weka 1.2.3

       2 November 2021 at 9:24 am

       tbf, it's not that easy to understand.

       Will vax certs only apply under red?
       • Cricklewood 1.2.3.1

         2 November 2021 at 9:36 am

         As I understand it from Macro, thats correct once we get to traffic lights then businesses will be able to choose if the will allow unvaxxed people inside.

         But until we get there it seems not.
         • Shanreagh 1.2.3.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 9:50 am

           The traffic light system comes into force much later in November/December when the vaccination levels are up.

           At the moment AKl is working through the steps in the old level 3.

           https://covid19.govt.nz/alert-levels-and-updates/alert-level-3/alert-level-3-steps-1-to-3/
         • weka 1.2.3.1.2

           2 November 2021 at 10:55 am

           it does seem odd for the areas with community transmission.
       • Macro 1.2.3.2

         2 November 2021 at 4:10 pm

         Vac Certificates will apply at all levels, as Jacinda outlined quite clearly, when she introduced the Framework system at the initial press briefing. The "Traffic Light" Framework, will come into play when all DHBs have a 90% level of eligible people vaccinated. Initially the part of the country currently at level 2 Delta will move to Orange. Auckland will move to Red before the rest of the country, when all 3 DHBs in the Auckland city reach 90% of eligible people vaccinated. The link I provided above gives all the details for each colour. The colour Red applies when there is community transmission within a particular area. This, as the Govt is explaining, is no longer an elimination strategy, but a suppression strategy. As we have found out, elimination of the delta variant is far too difficult once it has gotten into the community. The need for very high levels of vaccination, along with public health measures, is the best means of mitigation.
   • Treetop 1.3

     2 November 2021 at 9:09 am

     As routine as shopping hours are displayed, a notice needs to be at the entrance of every business about what the compliance is to enter.

     Adapting will be easier for the vaccinated than the unvaccinated, (those with a medical exemption differ to the unvaccinated group). Consideration for the staff's health and welfare on the premises is what is required.
   • AB 1.4

     2 November 2021 at 10:22 am

     It makes perfect sense if you're not a one-dimensional purist. Level 3 stage 2 (which allows some retail) is a transitional concession to Auckland's angst and fatigue. The traffic light system is a long-term framework for next year. If they are a bit contradictory, who gives a f*ck?

     Commentators who haven't had to make god awful decisions affecting lots of people and with only bad options on the table need to keep quiet.
     • Jimmy 1.4.1

       2 November 2021 at 2:27 pm

       Many people in Auckland are now simply ignoring the steps and rules. There have been several family gathering that I know of, and a walk down to Mission Bay, Okahu Bay will confirm many are treating it as the old level one.
2. alwyn 2

   2 November 2021 at 9:35 am

   Labour down by 6% to 39.5% in the Roy Morgan Poll for October?

   Must be a rogue poll I suppose.

   https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/8849-nz-national-voting-intention-october-2021-202111010502
   • Koff 2.1

     2 November 2021 at 9:43 am

     And the Greens up to 10.5% – left block on 51%, holding well despite all the negative blah blah blah and hard decisions made.

     Must be a rogue poll I suppose.
     • Ad 2.1.1

       2 November 2021 at 9:47 am

       That Greens gender split is big. Good their numbers are holding though.
       • AB 2.1.1.1

         2 November 2021 at 10:27 am

         Yep – plenty of blokes going right-wing nutbar under the pressure of Covid. Dangerous times.
         • weka 2.1.1.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 11:01 am

           of the people supporting the left (L/G), 8.5% of women support the Greens, and 13.5% of men support the Greens. That's actually quite shocking.

           RM aren't the most reliable on individual polls, but still something to take notice of. Need to compare to RMs a few years ago…
           • weka 2.1.1.1.1.1

             2 November 2021 at 11:08 am

             can't find it. Just the more recent stuff, which is probably because Ardern is more popular with women.
             • Sabine …

               2 November 2021 at 12:08 pm

               Would a Green Party women not show her affiliation with the Party atm, there are no elections so why would they throw their support behind Labour? Could it be that the Greens may be actually losing women and would the Self ID bill part of the reason that is leading that exodus? I think that the Green seem to be more a Standard bearer for that bill then the actual government. Personally i always thought that women were the majority support for the Green Party.
               • Anker …

                 2 November 2021 at 4:08 pm

                 quite possibly Sabine
               • weka …

                 2 November 2021 at 5:56 pm

                 best way to know that is to compare older RM polls and see what the sex rates were pre-Ardern. I'm guessing that in the exodus of voters from Green to Labour in 2017, the balance of male/female changed as well.
                 • weka …

                   2 November 2021 at 5:57 pm

                   I doubt that most women in NZ are aware of the law changes and what they mean. It's not like they were asked.I’d be surprised if that is affecting a poll of 1000 people.
         • garibaldi 2.1.1.1.2

           2 November 2021 at 3:30 pm

           Yes AB ,there are plenty of right wing nutbars "quadrupling down" out there now because they can't stand having female leaders of both main parties; so they flock to Rimmer.
   • Ad 2.2

     2 November 2021 at 9:46 am

     For a government that is having to control people's lives to this extent for this long it is more of a surprise that they haven't lost more, sooner.

     I expect some polling gain after Christmas as shopping and family re-unifications take place.

     But 2022 and 2023 look pretty tough for a potential third term. At the moment they are putting simply more controls on society for not a whole bunch of fun or upside:

     – water regulation

     – carbon budgets and programmes across government

     – new RMA legislation

     – pushing the health amalgamation

     None of that makes me wee myself with happiness.

     Labour will need to pull something big out of the 2022 budget to win the next election.
     • Tricledrown 2.2.1

       2 November 2021 at 11:49 am

       That's the reality of politics, the farmers revolt the 3 waters debacle now magnified with a change cancelling the opt out option has upset a lot of people.

       Then the long lockdown and all the business sector ,anti vax protests,gangs and prostitutes breaking the team effort.gangs getting $ 2.5million to reform.

       The left can't complain to much the govt has given the media plenty of ammunition.

       While National haven't been able to land any big blows.The Media haven't been so dysfunctional.
     • Patricia Bremner 2.2.2

       2 November 2021 at 6:14 pm

       Time to look at basic Labour values.

       Build social Housing. Put up benefits for children. Plant native trees.

       Those are the issues that will now help us continue to fight poverty and covid and climate change.
   • Fireblade 2.3

     2 November 2021 at 11:00 am

     Alwyn. Why is the National Party only on 26%?
     • alwyn 2.3.1

       2 November 2021 at 11:27 am

       You want my opinion?

       The MSM have been bought by the current Government.

       The National Party leader is uninspiring, to put it politely.

       The ACT party have a genuinely interesting leader.

       Mind you, at the same time in the 2014-2017 term the leading party (National) was on 49% and the second party (Labour) was on 28.5% in the equivalent poll my Roy Morgan. Now the numbers, for the 2 leading parties don't look quite so bad for National do they?
       • Fireblade 2.3.1.1

         2 November 2021 at 11:48 am

         Someone will have to roll Collins before the next General Election. She's been a disaster for National.
         • Sabine 2.3.1.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 1:17 pm

           Who is Andrew Little.
           • Patricia Bremner 2.3.1.1.1.1

             2 November 2021 at 6:16 pm

             An honest broker.
       • I Feel Love 2.3.1.2

         2 November 2021 at 1:23 pm

         "the MSM have been bought by the govt"???
         • UncookedSelachimorpha 2.3.1.2.1

           2 November 2021 at 2:14 pm

           I heard George Soros was involved.
       • SPC 2.3.1.3

         2 November 2021 at 3:52 pm

         The MSM bought by the government is the local version of Trump's claim the election was stolen.
     • Tricledrown 2.3.2

       2 November 2021 at 11:54 am

       Once Collins is replaced the govt should be wary.No election is guaranteed in a democracy.

       The recovery ,Child poverty,housing,climate change policy that is a tight rope walk.
       • garibaldi 2.3.2.1

         2 November 2021 at 12:15 pm

         Just watch the Right push the meme that Maori are running Labour. They will play the racist card.
   • observer 2.4

     2 November 2021 at 11:51 am

     Not a rogue poll (but it is Roy Morgan, and those of us who pay attention have treated the good with the bad with consistent caution – no memory hole here).

     But the poll doesn't say what you think it does. As always, the best measure is "right direction/wrong direction". At a time when the opinion-churners are declaring NZ to be a basket case, the people disagree.

     In supposedly a "bad poll", there is still a gap of 48-38 in right vs wrong direction. In Australia, it is in negative territory, hence the ALP lead. Scott Morrison hasn't had Ardern's ratings – ever.

     Similar Covid problems, different responses. NZ doing much better. According to the people, not the columnists.
3. Pete 3

   2 November 2021 at 10:04 am

   People like Alanna Ratna are as much a risk to society as covid.

   "At a recent protest in Tauranga, a retired General Practitioner (GP) in Mount Maunganui named Alanna Ratna told the assembled that Jacinda Ardern was guilty of “crimes against humanity”.

   “In Nuremberg, the punishment for crimes against humanity involved the gallows,” she said to loud cheers.

   “We no longer have capital punishment in this country, but I suggest a good punishment would be a ball and chain around your ankle digging hard rock for the rest of your life.”

   Later, on her Facebook page, Ratna went a step further, writing that Ardern “is going to get her own lethal injection when the International Criminal Court sits for Nuremberg two”.

   https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300439357/covid19-nz-why-a-small-group-of-doctors-oppose-vaccination
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1

     2 November 2021 at 2:18 pm

     Jeebus.

     Thankfully most doctors in NZ are not so nuts

     https://www.doctors-stand-up-for-vaccination.com/
   • Patricia Bremner 3.2

     2 November 2021 at 5:43 pm

     Surely that is "threatening to kill" especially as she named the victim and the method? I hope she no longer has access to medicines!!
4. Molly 4

   2 November 2021 at 11:18 am

   I'm posting this again for those who are watching and seeking to inform themselves more about what is going on in conversations about self–id for gender and legislative, cultural and societal impact.

   Language distortion and conflation plays a significant role in derailing discussion.

   This post – by someone who has Complete Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome, is one of the best I have read in terms of research and clarity about the term 'Intersex' and how it is sometimes inappropriately and harmfully used:

   The Invention of Intersex

   It's a long read, but a good one.
   • Puckish Rogue 4.1

     2 November 2021 at 12:52 pm

     Hi Molly, I hope this is ok but if you have time I'd like your opinion on this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uvpd0tEWHfY&t=3s

     To put it into context I'm conservative and Andrew Klavan is also conservative and is part of The Daily Wire.

     He comes from an older and religious viewpoint but I'm curious as to what you think of his opinion
     • Anker 4.1.1

       2 November 2021 at 2:54 pm

       Thanks PR. I have no idea who this guy is, but mostly I agree with him.

       In my mind you are doing the speaking up that none of the people on the subway did for the woman being punched. Thank you.
       • Puckish Rogue 4.1.1.1

         3 November 2021 at 8:03 am

         It seems to me that this is an issue that ,on the face of it, is pitched as left v right but once you drill down into it the situation changes and its clearly something else
     • Molly 4.1.2

       2 November 2021 at 3:48 pm

       Strangely enough, one of my favourite people to talk with is a committed ACT voter, and conservative Christian – her husband was a pastor. Like me, she has a few Aspergers traits, so we enter discussions knowing the other person is unlikely to change their view to align with our own, but we can both listen to each other and come away with another perspective that informs our own. IRL I know her quite well, and see that we share a lot of values, just disagree on how to get there. That base relationship, gives a context to discussion that's often missing online.

       That said, I did watch. And like many others, question my own use of left and right as a political term in situations, because so many people have different ideas of what this means.

       It'll take longer to write than it took to watch, if I go through it piece by piece. But some of the language used made me take note. He is right about biological sex, but not necessarily about responsibilities and privilege accorded to both sexes. I'd say there are roles within cultures that are delegated according to sex, but the majority of cultures puts the power hierachies in the hands of men. The "privileges" he seems to infer, is the 'privilege' of women having men protect them from the violence of other men. Every person has the choice to step in (eg. woman on the train), men will probably be more successful and less likely to receive harm, but that doesn't mean the responsibility lies only with men. The qualification that the left brought about this inaction, means that everyone on the train would be left. But that's unlikely to be true. It's a difficult thing for many people to know how to intervene without causing escalation, and I think that stops quite a few from action unfortunately.

       I have been in situations where men have jumped into existing fights after a split second decision making process that gives them the insight into which side to join. The fact that this was a women is by-the-by for me. His view is a bit too "pretty little head" for me to be comfortable with.

       I also think his reference to New York devolving back to a city where people are unsafe – as in the 70s – ignores the valid stories of those who have experienced it as unsafe during the last 50 years. I'm sure there would be thousands who live a life in one of the world's biggest cities of terror and vulnerability. The anonymity and disconnect that are part and parcel of large swathes of cities, are the breeding grounds for exploitation and violence unfettered by social contracts.

       I watched Chapelle to see what the concern was. Thought that it was not transphobic, but then the term as it is being used has little meaning – as Andrew Klavan points out. It does, however, hold a lot of power in terms of derailing discourse, making policies and legislation, so cannot be ignored.

       I do believe there are some manipulators out there, who don't have the well-being of transgender people at the heart of their actions or activism but are utilising the zeitgeist to create power networks for themselves as individuals. I also believe that there are many transgender people that are really discomforted by those that state that biological sex is real and immutable. I think this feeling of compromised 'safety' is a natural result of a series of beliefs that constantly require unrelenting external validation to hold together. It's not a good place to be, and it is not a good place for policy and legislation to aim at providing.

       He returns back to the 'protection' theme, but women have been pointing out these inconsistencies since they became aware of them, and Chapelle is reiterating points already made. Women have also been threatened, and cancelled and suffered consequences but he makes no reference to them.

       His take that it is the left's idea to silence truth, can be applied with the same generalisation to some of the right and other topics. But they are both inaccurate, I think. Whether you see yourself as left or right, there are always some on your side that will take the opportunity to reduce things down to a simplistic explanation. And life and people are more complicated than that.

       Of course, I wonder sometimes about those men (and women) that consider themselves left, and yet have remained silent or joined the chorus of those who use the #NoDebate stance to silence others. Unfortunately, I think within all points of the political spectrum there are personality types that are represented, and we are seeing the effects of a shallow approach to the issue stifling discussion on the left. I don't know why.

       The Twitter terms that block users because of misgendering has been in place for while, and has silenced many. But he only brings up men in positions of power, and Twitter is the one that is making these social judgements and should be challenged. His point about the conflation of sex and gender identity – although he calls it gender and gender – matches my belief that confusion about language and its use is causing unreasonable situations.

       His explanation of sex based roles throughout history would take too long to dissemble into relevance…… so moving on.

       Agree with his reference to Judith Butler work, and the imposition of abstract on the concrete, and the use of obfuscating language to deny interrogation of ideas.

       His expectation of quality from the journalists shown is much higher than mine, but it would benefit us all if media for consumption was at a higher standard than it currently is.

       His focus on the individual connection to biological sex is a different perspective to mine. My awareness of my female sex is one that encompasses commonalities with other women. His conclusion is about power, and influence I think, and the inability to regulate excessive power in the hands of a few.

       Overall, I am aware that many supposed conservatives are speaking out, but they also often miss a lot of the issues related to this. His take is simplistic and quite paternalistic – "the protection of women".

       The concerns of many women's groups (and some transgender individuals) regarding the impact of legislative and policy changes seems to be much more nuanced and considered.

       As an example of how much could be considered in terms of the social and cultural impact of badly drafted legislative change (NOT transgender existence or presence), one woman's rant to police when she was reported by her ex-husband, now transwoman, for transphobic hate:

       Them: Erm…Well, we haven’t actually taken a statement. We just came to speak to you as we received a call about transphobic hate…

       Me: Really. So, basically you have come here to harass a woman for daring to speak about the erosion of women as a social and political class then?

       Them: No.

       Me: So why is the opinion and perceived offence caused to a man more important than my opinion and offence at the removal of my rights.
       I find it offensive that you would come to my home like this and frankly intimidate me like this into shutting up.
       Has a crime actually been committed?

       Them: Erm…
       Look, this is a small town and people are offended…. <blah blah blah>

       At this point I pretty much let rip…politely but firmly. Very very firmly.

       I might have said:

       They will need to build more prisons

       Raged about men in prisons
       Raged about men running rape-crisis centres
       Raged about queer theory in school
       Raged about illegal schools guidance that sees school compelled to keep a 4-year-old’s self-declared gender identity a secret from parents

       Them: Oh, I read about that… I wondered…what is all that about…

       Raged about online porn
       Raged about girls missing school due to periods
       Raged about girls not drinking all day to avoid going to the toilet
       Raged about 1 rape per week in schools & 6/10 girls experienced/witnessed sexual assault by age 16
       Raged about Women and Girls sport
       Raged about Self-ID
       Raged about the notion that Twans people are ‘vulnerable’ – murder figures confirm that it’s Women who remain vulnerable <gave them the actual figures Graham>
       Raged about Women and girls having not a single safe space away from men. Not even rape victims who are not transphobic but traumatised.
       Raged about the absolute brass neck of two police officers turning up at my door thinking they can silence women.
       Raged about not being bloody transphobic in any feckin way.
       Raged about having to fight this fight.
       Raged about being removed as a political and biological class.
       Raged about Lesbians having to accept ‘Ladydick'
       Raged about Marion Miller.
       Raged about academia.
       Raged about lots of other shit I am too enraged about right now to remember.
       Raged about harassment.
       Raged about my body.

       Them: Jeez, Look we are not allowed to have personal opinions… just doing our job… hear what you are saying…blah blah blah

       Me: I think we all have a responsibility to think about what we are doing to people and why…. <kind of looked the female right in the eye> You owe it to your women and children to have an opinion on this. This is very dangerous… <that was for the man>

       Raged about confused children
       Raged about Gay children
       Raged about Breast binders
       Raged about drugs these children are taking (PB’s, Wrong-sex hormones)
       Raged about consequences of the drugs… not good at all
       Raged about grotesque surgeries
       Raged about number of detransitioners
       Raged about number of young women with catheters due to complications from surgery.
       Raged about botched surgeries
       Raged about breast amputations
       Raged about penis removal
       Raged about the indoctrination of children at school, on social media, tv, everywhere
       Raged about the monetising of our children to fund an industry.
       Raged about the state-sanctioned abuse of our children.

       I am furious at our MP's for introducing legislation that has caused these legitimate concerns to be raised in other countries, and not taking the time to address those issues beforehand. They have knowingly created a similar situation in NZ, between groups that are most likely aligned in wanting people to be free to live lives without boundaries on safe personal expression.

       That's my basic take on this video.

       Now, did you read the article?
       • Anker 4.1.2.1

         2 November 2021 at 6:42 pm

         Wow Molly. Thanks for the critique of the video. You raise some excellent points.

         I am just relieved to find anyone who calls out the erasure of women.

         I also read the article about the Scottish women. It is unbelievably scarry what is happening in Scotland. I fear once the hate speech laws come in GC women will be harrased by the police like this. And I believe that when the Conversion Therapy Bill passes it will be similar. Parents and counsellors (who want be protected in the Act will be visited by the police and intimidated in this way…..

         Its bloody frightening. Either take you child to gender affirming medical treatment and use their pro-nouns or receive a visit from the police.
         • Molly 4.1.2.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 7:53 pm

           Yes. Only scrolling through after did I realise how long it was… my family tend to get themselves a cup of tea and a comfortable seat before they ask for my opinion.

           PR can now understand why that is.
           • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.1.1.1

             2 November 2021 at 10:57 pm

             I may have to reply properly tomorrow but thanks for the effort, I find it interesting how people converge especially with different voting habits
             • Molly …

               3 November 2021 at 7:41 am

               No worries. As mentioned I have a reputation at home for the long-windedness of my opinions.
       • Sabine 4.1.2.2

         2 November 2021 at 7:31 pm

         https://archive.md/2021.11.01-003354/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-isnt-the-polices-job-to-stop-people-being-offended-xj5vz7k05#selection-787.0-793.239

         i have posted this below, but it is more fitting here.
         • Molly 4.1.2.2.1

           2 November 2021 at 7:46 pm

           The recording of a NCHI "non-crime hate incident" on your police record resulting from a complaint is unconscionable. This will show up in any police checks for employment, housing, volunteering etc although no crime has been shown to be committed.

           These police records flowed from lawful speech. It is completely lawful to express the view that biological sex is unchangeable and it is equally lawful to support a woman’s right to abortion. It is not necessary to take sides to understand it is deeply worrying that the police categorised such commonly held opinions as hate incidents.

           We live in a time when many people are quick to take offence, believing they have some right in law to be protected from it. They don’t. It’s a small step for such individuals to see any opposition to their world view as motivated by hate, rather than by, for example, ridicule. We grant such sensitive souls enormous power if they can virtually dictate the creation of police records against those whose views conflict with their own. This power has real-world consequences. We need hardly imagine what an HR manager would make of a job applicant with a police history of hate.
           • Sabine 4.1.2.2.1.1

             2 November 2021 at 7:59 pm

             but that is the intent is it not, to scare people into submission.
             • Molly …

               2 November 2021 at 8:07 pm

               Yes.
       • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.3

         3 November 2021 at 8:01 am

         My take away on the article is it mostly affirms my ideas and mirrors whats happening in the activist trans community

         Taking labels and applying them to oneself takes away from the people that actually have the condition

         Like people saying they're gluten intolerant to be trendy which trivialises people with actual intolerances

         It also makes me worry at the, seeming, explosion in the number of kids declaring they're trans and wanting sex change operations, is it the kids or is it the parents and the circles they move in

         I liked what you wrote and it gave me, and others, food for thought
         • Sabine 4.1.2.3.1

           3 November 2021 at 8:19 am

           -it is the kids – puperty, growing up is hard. And for the girls i totally understand any girl that say wants to work in Stem or Tech and who decides that she can't be fucked with the inherent mysoginy and simply opts out via Trans and presents as man for the perceived advantages.

           We should look at that as a society and ask ourselfs jus why Girls think that life as women is so miserable and so devoid of advantages as women that having a double masectomy and lifelong injections of testesterone is preferable.

           -it is the parents – and in saying that we have now a bill that is being shoved through that can criminalize parents for not going with full affirmation should their kid declare themself trans. (See OZ).

           – it is the parents – see the tragic story of a boy name Jazz Jennings who was transed by his parents at 18 month, was chemically castrated at age 10, then put on female hormones, then at barely 18 hat his 'neo vagina' fashioned out of his micro penis, this of course went all bad, and the kid has had three more ops down there (can you imagine the pain just to urinate and defecate), gained a hundred pounds, is highly depressed, but this it seems is better for the Mum and Dad then having a healthy son who may or may not present as gay, bisexual or heterosexual albeit a bit flamboyant and 'sassy'. TLC Channel. There is another kid, exactly the same, he is 9 going on to his chemical castration in seven miles boots.

           – education system – any system that would cut out parents from how they deal with the child, how they would name him, his/her pronouns, etc in order to protect the child from the parents (wtf) is an environment that is grooming kids.

           – online, it is very easy to be groomed into being transbaby by adults. It is as easy as is access to choke the women dead porn.

           – watch tiktok if you have a good stomach

           but don't worry, the Self ID bill will go through, and with it the clause about hate speech, and please feel free to check the link above from England where they now want a permanent records for people who have been apprehended for the non crime of opinionated speech.
         • Molly 4.1.2.3.2

           3 November 2021 at 9:03 am

           Thanks PR. I thought she'd outlined her perspective well and provided great links for research and additional information.

           The language distortion, in this case around 'intersex' is shown clearly as "Taking labels and applying them to oneself takes away from the people that actually have the condition".

           Agree with Sabine on her responses to your questions.

           The law in Scotland that initiated the police visit above was accompanied in 2019 by the release of this video:

           https://youtu.be/wcr7hg8SJik

           A strange intolerant view of tolerance.

           (I have an ongoing disagreement with close friend with an English degree who finds it painful to listen to people who use swear words as adjectives or emphasis. As long as it's not used in a threatening or bullying manner it doesn't bother me.

           My perspective is that some of the most horrific things you can hear are profanities without swear words:

           "You are not to talk to your family again"

           "I don't want you to go out with your friends anymore."

           "This is our secret, and you can't tell anyone."…

           Scottish Govt: "We believe in acceptance, and it’s time you accept that" has that same discord for me.)
           • Anker 4.1.2.3.2.1

             3 November 2021 at 9:37 am

             Fascinating Molly re the Scottish add. No mention of mysogamy or we won't tolerate hating on women.
           • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.3.2.2

             3 November 2021 at 11:42 am

             I'll let Stephen Fry talk about swearing:

             https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7raS7hmLkAA
             • Molly …

               3 November 2021 at 11:50 am

               It'd be so unfair to bring Stephen Fry into our discourse.

               We'd watch, I'd win and then we'd have to look for another topic on which to disagree.
           • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.3.2.3

             3 November 2021 at 11:51 am

             Hate Crime.

             Report it to stop it.

             Did this come from the Ministry of Love?
         • Anker 4.1.2.3.3

           3 November 2021 at 9:43 am

           I agree with you PR. I have drawn that paralell with the trend of people declaring themselves gluten intolerant (whereas people who have coeliacs diesease are). However the GI people don't demand that we change our language or impose things (although I was organising a conference once and the hotel automatically provided vegan, gluten free, lactose free food, without having to ask. What a hassle for them I thought). Being gluten free also doesn't involve permanantly changing your body, as what is happening to very young kids.

           Kids are now taught at school you can be born in the wrong body and that there is such a thing as gender identity (and given a huge range of gender identities to label themselves as). We are teaching kids this stuff.
           • Puckish Rogue 4.1.2.3.3.1

             3 November 2021 at 11:48 am

             What I still can't get my head around is how quickly everything is happening or was it building up slowly and then like the pressure on a weak point something broke?

             Ghostbusters 2016?

             Twitter/Social media?

             JK Rowling going from darling of the left to being on their most hated list?

             All of the above, none of the above?
             • Anker …

               3 November 2021 at 11:58 am

               It has happened in the blink of an eye almost PR. Others would probably be able to give you better info that I have on have on it..

               I agree it isn't a left right thing. Many of the women who are GC are real lefties. The likes of Sandra Coney, Philida Bunkle, John Minto, Prue Hymen. The women in this group are the Grand Dames of Feminism in NZ.

               I think there is a massive group think going on, education system, infiltration of parliament, the public service and the media. Its come from the universities and the gender theory one of the main proponants being Judith Butler an American Philosopher. Its also the no debate, your a transphobe if you disagree tactics used.

               BTW if you have time, how did you become aware of this? No problem if you rather not say, but generally it flys below the radar.
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 3 November 2021 at 1:09 pm

                 A couple of things seemed to happen at once.

                 I've read the Harry Potter books and seen the movies, her world building is incredible and just a joy to read (just ignore the implications of some of the spells and potions) so I found it odd when JK Rowling announced that Dumbledore was gay given that there was no hint to it in the books, that she said Hermione could be black which means she doesn't know her own stories and then she started going on about refugees and I thought "oh ok" shes gone full woke then the terf thing happened…and JK Rowling found out you can never satisfy the woke mob

                 Then Fallon Fox happened, I'll link to this guy to explain my issues with this because hes a trainer, manager, cornerman, promoter, announcer, referee and former fighter in China so he really knows his stuff (great voice as well):

                 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPOskQsMwJQ

                 I happen to be conservative so for my fix on political and cultural matters I follow sites like The Daily Wire, Steven Crowder (I also happen to follow Joe Rogan and Russell Brand) and due to that I got a recommendation for Blaire White so I clicked on her and thought yep shes coming at this issues at a different angle (took me two videos to realise shes trans)

                 Next would be the pop culture aspect and there I follow Nerdrotic, The Critical Drinker, Keri Smith, Just Some Guy and (thanks youtube algorithms) they've lead me to others which is why I sometimes bang on about just how bad movies and tv are these days

                 Not to mention the treatment of Gina Carano, the idea that if you don't like something its because you're a misogynist, for example: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/ghostbusters-the-bros-who-hate-it-and-the-art-of-modern-misogyny/2016/07/14/1dfba61a-49bd-11e6-bdb9-701687974517_story.html and https://www.theverge.com/2015/12/19/10626896/star-wars-the-force-awakens-rey-mary-sue-feminist yet the reality is these movies are bad, really bad and the main characters are bad but if you criticize its because you hate women

                 Finally just things happening all over the place that I simply don't understand and will never support like Don Brash being cancelled and free speech being curtailed for "safety", it sometimes feels like we're all in a race to see who can jump off the cliff first.
             • Molly …

               3 November 2021 at 12:07 pm

               Strictly tongue-in-check answer to your question:

               In a galaxy far, far away…
               • Puckish Rogue …

                 3 November 2021 at 1:22 pm

                 The closer parody comes to the truth the more uncomfortable it becomes and this is very uncomfortable

                 Good though, I liked it
   • left for dead 4.2

     2 November 2021 at 1:15 pm

     Find it interesting 0.02% of pop. I'm trying to find where someone was turning that into 2.0% of pop just over the last few days,do you recall,because that's a big differance.
     • weka 4.2.1

       2 November 2021 at 1:33 pm

       try this

       https://archive.md/gi5NR
       • left for dead 4.2.1.1

         2 November 2021 at 1:56 pm

         As has been noted it's used alot,I don't do twitting,I'd rather do knitting,nah just a wee word play,(I do run sewing machines though) no someone inflating on MSM just days ago which pricked my ears as I had seen and understood 0.02 % to be fact.
         • weka 4.2.1.1.1

           2 November 2021 at 1:58 pm

           NZ MSM? They were saying 2%?
         • Molly 4.2.1.1.2

           2 November 2021 at 2:39 pm

           Was it this Herald article from last week, put up to acknowledge Intersex Awareness Day?

           Intersex children in New Zealand are routinely undergoing unnecessary surgery – that needs to change

           It's estimated 1.7 to 4% of people globally are intersex – meaning they don't fit within typical female or male norms.

           The initial link I posted deals with both the inflated estimates and the surgical claims made in the Herald.
           • left for dead 4.2.1.1.2.1

             2 November 2021 at 5:55 pm

             Cheers but not that,It was a solid 2.%.(I've been alert to the 1.7-4 % for awhile )Haven't watched local TV news in a long while,I'm thinking RNZ or a link from here,maybe that BBC thing you put up last week.?
5. observer 5

   2 November 2021 at 12:14 pm

   "Comments have been closed on this story" – says Stuff.

   Tova to quit TV3 Newshub

   Quite funny. The word "Tova" gets a Pavlovian reaction almost as foamy as "Jacinda" (except it's from right, left and centre). So the comments can only be imagined.

   Sadly, her new role will probably involve more ranting than reporting. It's a shame, because she was a good reporter … when reporting, not reckoning.
   • garibaldi 5.1

     2 November 2021 at 12:22 pm

     "The only thing worse than that news would be Kim Hill retiring.
   • weka 5.2

     2 November 2021 at 12:31 pm

     much better pay I expect.
6. Ad 6

   2 November 2021 at 1:14 pm

   So this Let's Get Wellington Moving set of options stands in stark relief to the Auckland light rail issue.

   Wellington.Scoop » LGWM unveils options including extra tunnel, light rail or long buses

   In Wellington the Mayor fronts it from the beginning, and sets out broad options for public consideration, and open up the housing intensification options right from the outset.

   In Auckland, we don't have any idea of what Kainga Ora have in mind for several dozen urban hectares right along the line.

   It's an open question whether the Auckland plan or the Wellington plan will happen fastest, or happen at all. Wellington's one simply integrates better with the city, from the outset.
7. observer 7

   2 November 2021 at 1:53 pm

   Idiot from Steve Bannon's Counter Spin tries to disrupt PM's press conference. I hope this is accurately reported – he wasn't a random "heckler". Ironic that he was gently squashed with words, whereas in Trumpland he wouldn't get close without being shot.
   • Puckish Rogue 7.1

     2 November 2021 at 1:54 pm

     'Trumpland', you mean Brandonland?
     • observer 7.1.1

       2 November 2021 at 1:58 pm

       CounterSpin is definitely Trumpland.

       Some background here

       You really don't want these guys on your side.
       • Puckish Rogue 7.1.1.1

         2 November 2021 at 2:03 pm

         Never heard of them and not going to check them out further
   • newsense 7.2

     3 November 2021 at 1:22 am

     So the rude American prick was a foreign agitator? Looking at the body count USrwnjs have wrought by politicising core parts of the pandemic response, it’s much more dangerous than other ideologies we monitor and restrict.
     • dv 7.2.1

       3 November 2021 at 1:14 pm

       Yes body count

       Covid deaths per population:

       US 1 in 451
       Italy 1 in 457
       UK 1 in 479
       Spain 1 in 540
       France 1 in 566
       Austria 1 in 789
       Germany 1 in 874
       Turkey 1 in 1, 211
       Canada 1 in 1, 305
       India 1 in 3, 008
       Australia 1 in 15, 494
       New Zealand 1 in 175, 607
8. Pete 8

   2 November 2021 at 2:24 pm

   Heckler at PM in Northland

   "It restarted a few minutes later, with local Labour MP Kelvin Davis saying that the incident was “the reason vaccine rates were so low in Northland.”

   Ardern said it was important to get the protests in perspective, as it was just two people. Northland MP Willow-Jean Prime corrected her to say it was four people.

   Northland has one of the lowest vaccine rates in the country."

   Northland needs people to be vaccinated. Northland drags behind the rest of the country. Northland is primed to have Covid rip into communities.

   Northland has many uninformed people. Northland has the usual percentage of idiots and the plain 'dumb' people.

   What Northland doesn't need is some smartarse spreading false information and playing on ignorance.
9. Anker 9

   2 November 2021 at 2:38 pm

   https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-59124427

   passing of Aaron Beck, aged 100. Founder of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy.

   implemented widely in the UK with good, evidence based outcomes.

   Labour would have done well to copy this in order to improve mental health outcomes in NZ
10. joe90 10

    2 November 2021 at 2:45 pm

    Mandates work #eleventyseven

    https://twitter.com/TristanSnell/status/1455258984772997120
    • McFlock 10.1

      2 November 2021 at 3:24 pm

      lol
    • Nic the NZer 10.2

      2 November 2021 at 5:53 pm

      I understand the draft is pretty good at getting people to join the military as well.
11. SPC 11

    2 November 2021 at 4:12 pm

    It seems that some epidemiologists and government have differing levels of concern over rising infection rates.

    This may be because of the use of different models – one using total infection rates and the other separating out the young unlikely to need hospitalisation.

    The other factor is that of timing – at what point does vaccination levels have an impact on the r rate. Both NSW and Victoria reduced their levels by increasing rate of vaccination (and NSW did this after easing their lock down).
12. Sabine 12

    2 November 2021 at 6:14 pm

    soon to come near us?

    Today, the House of Lords debates regulations to control the creation of police records on people who have committed no crimes. In the frame are “non-crime hate incidents” (NCHIs), exchanges reported to the police that the so-called victims perceive to have been motivated by hate, but where no laws have been broken.

    NCHIs have consequences. They are not anonymised. They sit for ever against the names of the alleged perpetrators without any real investigation or right of appeal. Between 2014 and 2019 no fewer than 120,000 of these records were created.

    https://archive.md/2021.11.01-003354/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/it-isnt-the-polices-job-to-stop-people-being-offended-xj5vz7k05#selection-787.0-793.239
    • SPC 12.1

      2 November 2021 at 7:57 pm

      In the USA when the state is offended millions end up on watch lists.
      • Sabine 12.1.1

        2 November 2021 at 9:15 pm

        This refers to a permanent police record. Not quite the same, just sayin.
        • SPC 12.1.1.1

          2 November 2021 at 11:32 pm

          The Americans involved have no right of appeal to being on the watch list permanently. That list has just grown exponentially since 9/11.

          I am fairly sure the police here provide information for files of the SIS, despite no crimes being committed.

          While it is a record kept by the UK police, it is not a past conviction that anyone has to disclose. And if this record is to become practice – for balance the UK police should also keep a record of the offended and identify which groups they belong to … .
13. Sabine 13

    3 November 2021 at 8:32 am

    do you really not understand the implication of a permanent police record and being on a watch list somewher. Besides this article is from England, not the US. Seriously dude.

    The Police in England charges male rapists in skirts and wigs as women. I don't give them the benefit of doubt to keep good records.

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