Open mike 03/11/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:00 am, November 3rd, 2014 - 170 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

jose-mujicaOpen mike is your post.

The Standard is not a conspiracy – just a welcome outlet for the expression of views. Leaders that command respect will not be undermined by this.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

170 comments on “Open mike 03/11/2014 ”

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  1. Pat O'Dea 1
    3 November 2014 at 7:46 am

    Does anyone know what time Grant is likely to be back?

    • phillip ure 1.1
      3 November 2014 at 10:55 am

      when grant robertson does comes back this morn to answer the questions he passed over last nite..

      ..d’ya reckon he will answer this one..or will i get the clean sweep of each/every candidate i have asked this question..them choosing not to answer it..?

      ‘could you plse detail what you wd do in yr first 100 days as prime minister..

      ..to address the weeping-sores that are poverty/inequality..

      ..the poverty of children..and also/not forgetting the poverty of adults..

      ..specific-policies/ideas/promises plse..

      ..not aspirational…

      ..and please not just arbeit macht frei…’

      ..(and i did so try to be polite..i don’t think it is too much of a stretch to interpret their non-answers to mean they wd do s.f.a..

      ..donchareckon..?..)

      • phillip ure 1.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 11:02 am

        and i hafta say..in that thread robertson claimed to have the skills to take on key/ministers in parliament/debate..

        ..but in my capacity of doing commentaries on q-time… for far longer than i like to think..

        ..i have never seen any evidence of these claimed skills..

        ..in fact..just the opposite..

        ..i have repeatedly watched key/ministers bat robertson away..with ease..

        ..so it was a bit of a jaw-dropper/w.t.f!-moment..

        ..to see robertson making that palpably-false claim..

        • Hami Shearlie 1.1.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 11:23 am

          And Steven Joyce steamrollered over Robertson on “The Nation” remember!!

          • Murray Rawshark 1.1.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 9:50 pm

            Nobody won that one, but Robertson was totally ineffective at shutting Joyce down. The interviewer did a good job as speaker of the house though, at least as good as Carter.

      • phillip ure 1.1.2
        3 November 2014 at 11:09 am

        and as i am not a member of the labour party..

        ..i wd appreciate it if someone cd ask them all some variation of that first 100 days-question..

        ..in the q & a’s at their campaign-meetings..

        ..and if they cd report back here on what the answers were..?

        ..i think that wd/cd help clarify a lot of voters minds as to who to favour..

        • Skinny 1.1.2.1
          3 November 2014 at 11:49 am

          Ok Phil I’ll get an answer to your question on the 1st 100 days. And post it, however expec answers like;

          In the first 100 days we will make changes that matter to New Zealanders.

          1. Raise the retirement age to 70. We listened to the people and they agree inorder to be able to pay a benefit the age of eligibility needs to go up, 67 was too low. We view means testing as unfair, no changes there.

          2. Compulsory savings from the day your born, you will need to backdate payments to the date of birth from the time you first enter the work force.

          3. The introduction of a Capital Gains Tax, modified so that it will only apply after your third rental properties.

          4. Feed the kids, a new revolutionary policy will see free water in all schools, capped at 2 litres per child.

          • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 11:57 am

            @ skinny..

            ..chrs 4 that..

            ..and i do hope they are not the only answers..eh..?

          • phillip ure 1.1.2.1.2
            3 November 2014 at 2:35 pm

            two litres per child is very generous…

            ..couldn’t it be capped at one..?

            .and our mp’s should be helped..with a capital gains tax that excludes houses held in trusts..(that will discomfort them the least..bless them..!..eh..?..)

            ..and i think back-payments from conception..wd be fairest for all..

            ..i think the age should rise in line with those raises in longevity-predictions..

            ..if they go up five yrs..the pension-age goes up five yrs too..

            ..some will yo-yo on and off..maybe more than once..but no system is perfect..

            ..(i’m in the wrong era..!..i cd out rogernome the rogernomes..!..)

      • Lanthanide 1.1.3
        3 November 2014 at 11:40 am

        The candidates don’t have the amount of time required to decipher what it is you’re actually trying to ask, so use their limited time to address more coherent questions.

        • phillip ure 1.1.3.1
          3 November 2014 at 11:59 am

          a bit grumpy there sweetie..?

          ..cheer up..!..it’s likely to get worse..before it gets better..eh..?

          • Lanthanide 1.1.3.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 2:09 pm

            You’re the one grumping about being ignored. I just pointed out a likely reason for it.

            • phillip ure 1.1.3.1.1.1
              3 November 2014 at 2:15 pm

              i’m not ‘grumping’..sweetie..

              ..i’m just pointing out the meaning/implications of that universal refusal-to-answer..

              ..it actually isn’t all about me..eh..?

              ..it’s about politics..

              ..and trying to cut thru the bullshit…

              ..(you feeling a bit better now..?..cup third full..?..

              ..how long have you been a miserablist/broken-arse..?..)

              • Lanthanide …
                4 November 2014 at 1:08 pm

                “..i’m just pointing out the meaning/implications of that universal refusal-to-answer..”

                Occam’s razor suggests they simply didn’t want to spend the time reading it, as I suggested.

      • mickysavage 2.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 8:35 am

        Why?

          • The Gormless Fool formerly known as Oleolebiscuitbarrell 2.1.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 9:11 am

            Who?

          • mac1 2.1.1.1.2
            3 November 2014 at 9:12 am

            But, I do notice, no “Who”?

            I’m in the process of deciding how my preferences go for the Leader. I’ve watched the speeches from the Nelson meeting and read some of the literature and the comments here. Next Thursday our LEC hosts a meeting to allow members to discuss the issue.

            At the moment, connectivity is the real marker for me. One candidate showed this at a local Regional meeting which we hosted, during Shearer’s leadership. I turned up at at lunchtime and at the door got a genuine smile from one delegate whom I had never met and who didn’t know who I was from the proverbial bar of soap.

            Labour members at conferences can be very cliquey, and rude. This welcoming smile has stayed with me for quite some time.

            Even then, though, I didn’t have to ask who that friendly individual was.

            • ankerawshark 2.1.1.1.2.1
              3 November 2014 at 10:58 am

              Mac 1 I am very intrigued about the who in your story is. Any chance of sharing this with the group?

              • mac1 …
                3 November 2014 at 11:14 am

                The ‘who’ was the subject of the first comment- Grant Robertson. The ‘who’ connected the first comment and the subject of my story.

            • Rosie 2.1.1.1.2.2
              3 November 2014 at 11:16 am

              “Labour members at conferences can be very cliquey, and rude.”

              Can they? I was kind of wondering that as a new member. I’m not sure I’m going to fit in, going from informal grass roots community type activism to the machinery of a formal structured political party. I hope it’s not an alienating experience. I might just be a bit too much of a dag for folks.

              • mac1 …
                3 November 2014 at 12:07 pm

                My experience has been of a provincial member who through isolation from the main centres am not well known by many city members. I have filled all the roles from member to candidate but even then, one still does not get known. So, at conferences where I am not well known, and when I’m not in a group, one can meet the old “I’m sorry that seat’s taken” routine. I’ve been an active member since 1973 and meeting cliquey, unwelcoming, excluding behaviour is unsavoury.

                I’ve spent some time on marae where the etiquette is that you sit down in the next untaken seat even if it’s alongside someone you don’t know. A koro told me that that’s how you get to meet new people and it’s a gift to have a new face to talk to. It mixes people up and is egalitarian.

                But, to meet the brush-off, I don’t want to have you sit alongside me, is not unremarkable in its frequency. That has happened from an MP, thanks Trevor, from union delegates and fringe groupies.

                That is why Grant Robertson’s friendliness was a beacon in the night. A similar thing happened at a conference just before a major speech. Goff roared in and sat down beside me. Didn’t look for someone to sit alongside whom he knew, didn’t seek a seat alongside someone with power, connections and schmoozability, sat down and gave a friendly smile and we heard the conference speech.

                The point I’m trying to make was made very tellingly in a stage comedy “Motor Camp” . One working class character, your typical socially conservative male, supposedly a large part of the voting base of the Labour Party, made the joke about socialists that “they don’t seem to care about people.”

                Connectability, social inclusion, reaching out to the margins………… got to be practised at home, too, amongst our own.

                • Rosie …
                  3 November 2014 at 1:29 pm

                  mac1, thats a very long to be experiencing exclusion at conferences, and I’m sorry to hear that has been the case for you.

                  I agree with the Koro, who told you of the gift of meeting new people. It’s important to be open to strangers in a collective, you never know what they have to offer or to teach you – and those that brushed you off may have missed out on a new and interesting connection, a different view from theirs that could enrich their knowledge.

                  Your point was timely as over on On The Left an author had this to say:

                  http://ontheleftnz.com/2014/11/03/why-i-am-on-the-left-class-and-gender/

                  “I want a left wing politics that doesn’t hate the people I met in factories and on construction sites. I want a left wing politics that doesn’t fight oppression with pitchforks.”

                  which alludes to the exclusion you refer to.

                  What happened to solidarity?

                  • mac1 …
                    3 November 2014 at 6:59 pm

                    Which is why I found “Pride” such a powerful and affecting movie. Solidarity, acceptance of difference, support, caring- working class folk with good values and actions.

              • lprent …
                3 November 2014 at 1:14 pm

                I never found it too formal. You can always come and find me on the media desk somewhere.

                But my first conference was an awesome introduction. It was 1990 and everyone was shouting at everyone else.

                • Rosie …
                  3 November 2014 at 1:30 pm

                  Thanks Lynn. The last sentence made me smile 🙂

                • Lindsey …
                  3 November 2014 at 1:53 pm

                  I remember the Auckland Regional Conference where they were hitting each other!

                  • phillip ure …
                    3 November 2014 at 2:04 pm

                    heh..!

                    ..tell us more..!

                    ..don’t leave us hanging like that..

                    ..who was hitting who..and over what..?

                  • Rosie …
                    3 November 2014 at 2:31 pm

                    LOL! I hope it was with those big foam tubes kids play with in swimming pools

                  • lprent …
                    3 November 2014 at 2:52 pm

                    Argghh must have been the Onehunga LEC was there?

                    • mickysavage …
                      3 November 2014 at 3:17 pm

                      Mike Sweeney and Douglas from memory. There is still film of it somewhere.

                    • Jenny Kirk …
                      3 November 2014 at 5:40 pm

                      Don’t think MS memory is correct – it was a different union official
                      and was he in battle with Roger Douglas or was it Mike Moore ?

                      And it wasn’t quite an all-out brawl, PU, because others intervened before it went that far. Had forgotten that incident. Thanks for the reminder Lynn.

                    • mickysavage …
                      3 November 2014 at 5:49 pm

                      You are probably right Jenny. I was not there! Always thought it was Sweeney tho …

                  • phillip ure …
                    3 November 2014 at 2:56 pm

                    was the hitting girly-girly-slap-slap fingernail-comparisons/slapdowns…?..

                    ..or all-out bar-room brawl..?

                    (aahh!!..the snakepit..!..the memories..!

                    ..epic..truly epic..they were..)

                  • swordfish …
                    3 November 2014 at 3:12 pm

                    I seem to remember TV News coverage of the Party Gen-Sec Tony Timms and the particularly-waspish Michael Bassett indulging in a round of mildly-aggressive finger-wagging at each other. Apart from the shouting, that was probably about as violent as it got.

  3. Clemgeopin 3
    3 November 2014 at 8:39 am

    LOL

  6. KJS0ne 6
    3 November 2014 at 9:47 am

    So what do we think about Slater begging for donations to help pay his mountain of legal costs?

    To me it seems like such sweet irony that a man who has made a career out of bashing people who need hand outs, is now begging for hand outs. It would seem that his tobacco money has dried up, that nobody from parliament will touch him with a barge poll, and that Slater is out in the cold without so much as a steak and cheese pie for dinner. Hell he is even defending himself in lieu of actual legal council, such is his predicament.

    Look at the language they are using there too, it is becoming very paranoid, talk of grand conspiracies to ruin Slater, that they are being persecuted for telling the truth. They are deluded to the very last, Slater still cannot show a shred of maturity and accept responsibility for his actions, that these legal battles he must face are a direct result of his own actions.

    If the hypocrisy from Slater & co were a 3 course meal, it would be sumptuous.

    • Weepus beard 6.1
      3 November 2014 at 9:53 am

      They (Whaleoil) are promoting the idea that his opponents are trying to encourage him to commit suicide.

      Weird.

    • politikiwi 6.2
      3 November 2014 at 1:03 pm

      Yet remarkably, during court proceedings relating to stopping the publication of any more leaks from Rawshark, he fronted up to court with a QC….

      • CnrJoe 6.2.1
        3 November 2014 at 1:28 pm

        a wha..? he turned up with a quincy conserve?

        The Quincy Conserve – What Are We Doing Here

  7. Draco T Bastard 7
    3 November 2014 at 9:59 am

    Bill McKibben: IPCC Report Says Climate Change Is ‘Severe, Widespread and Irreversible’

    But when you get right down to it, who cares? The scientists have done their job; no sentient person, including Republican Senate candidates, can any longer believe in their heart of hearts that there’s not a problem here. The scientific method has triumphed: over a quarter of a century, researchers have reached astonishing consensus on a basic problem in chemistry and physics.

    And the engineers have done just as well. The price of a solar panel has dropped by more than 90 percent over the last 25 years, and continues to plummet. In the few places they have actually been deployed at scale, the results are astonishing: there were days this summer when Germany generated 75 percent of its power from the wind and the sun.

    That, of course, is not because Germany is so richly endowed with sunlight (it’s a rare person who books a North Sea beach holiday). It’s because the Germans have produced a remarkable quantity of political will, and put it to good use.

    Really, what’s wrong with our politicians that we’re not doing the same? Massive investment in wind and solar and we could be fossil fuel free fairly rapidly.

    • phillip ure 7.1
      3 November 2014 at 10:07 am

      we could again lead the world…

      ..but our current leaders..in both national and labour..

      ..are bereft of that imagination..

      (don’t forget that going into the recent election..cunnliffe/labour promised not to upset the dirty-industry applecarts in any way..

      ..so no point in looking there for any ‘imagination’..eh..?..)

    • RedLogix 7.2
      3 November 2014 at 10:34 am

      Draco,

      Have a read of my nytimes linky above and understand exactly what is wrong.

    • Rosie 7.4
      3 November 2014 at 11:22 am

      Drax, it’s a tragedy that here in NZ we remain stagnant and not fussed on CC when we could do so much.

      And hearing Ban Ki Moon imploring Governments to do more is like ground hog day, the same message year in year out. Like talking to a brick wall.

    • The Al1en 7.5
      3 November 2014 at 11:30 am

      “Really, what’s wrong with our politicians that we’re not doing the same? Massive investment in wind and solar and we could be fossil fuel free fairly rapidly.”

      With all these new homes that parties keep saying will be built, it’s the perfect time to add solar panels, roof hot water systems and wind turbines to the list of minimum specifications on new builds.
      Compliance costs may increase in the short term, but even if not offset by the claimed price reduction post gutting of the rma, recovered in a few years with long term benefits through buy back and increase the overall emission free generation.

      • Molly 7.5.1
        3 November 2014 at 12:39 pm

        Passive solar design can drastically reduce the need for electricity in a home. Considering that most homes are now built with the concrete slab method, you are simply talking orientation and window and overhang design, to get a measurable benefit for heating and cooling costs.

        …. but that doesn’t compute for Auckland Council planners that I have spoken to during the Unitary plan workshops.

        • The Al1en 7.5.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 12:47 pm

          Like most things with tory governments, long term gain always loses out to short term thinking, so I’m not surprised the officials (jobsworths) don’t get it. It’s the same with roads over rail loops, best start packages v worse health, education, offending rates etc etc…

        • Colonial Rawshark 7.5.1.2
          3 November 2014 at 2:55 pm

          Passive solar including water heating all designed for minimal ongoing maintenance costs is the way to go. Solar PV much less so.

          • weka 7.5.1.2.1
            3 November 2014 at 5:13 pm

            +1000

          • Draco T Bastard 7.5.1.2.2
            3 November 2014 at 7:00 pm

            Solar PV much less so.

            Why?

            • Colonial Rawshark 7.5.1.2.2.1
              3 November 2014 at 7:05 pm

              Many reasons. Solar PV all comes from overseas; it relies on an ongoing supply of electronic components and batteries; positioning a house and building it so its warm – we can do that all here.

              • Draco T Bastard …
                3 November 2014 at 7:18 pm

                They can be made here from our resources and, due to massive hydro lakes, batteries are not needed. Using passive heating to keep the house warm won’t charge the cell phone, run the fridge or the freezer or the vacuum.

                So, all your many reasons are complete bollocks. Essentially, you’re one of the people getting in the way of us making the necessary changes.

                • weka …
                  3 November 2014 at 8:07 pm

                  It’s a basic sustainability and resiliency principle. Use less energy more efficiently wherever you can. This directly impacts on non-renewable resource use, and pollution issues as well as power generation issues.

                  If passive solar were widely used, the need for solar/wind/hydro generation decreases, which means less need for mining/manufacture/recycling/disposal etc.

                  I suspect the argument here will be between the need for powerdown vs the idea that we can keep our current lifestyles. NZ already uses something like 2.5 x its available ecological footprint. Transitioning 25% of our energy generation to renewables will help with that, but it ultimately won’t solve the problem.

                  • Draco T Bastard …
                    3 November 2014 at 8:37 pm

                    Personally, I just think you’re confused. You equate power down with being sustainable and don’t accept that we can maintain present living standards while being sustainable. About the only things that must go are cars and planes but even then we’d get to keep short haul trucks and buses. Ships will go back to sail.

                    Solar voltaic and wind generation are sustainable and can provide us with the power that we now use. Sure, include better insulation and building standards to help out and I’ve called many times for the Passive House Standard to become the minimum building standard.

                    Transitioning 25% of our energy generation to renewables will help with that, but it ultimately won’t solve the problem.

                    Which problem is that?

                    • weka …
                      3 November 2014 at 9:07 pm

                      “Which problem is that?”

                      ecological footprint.

                      “Personally, I just think you’re confused.”

                      Lolz, me and all the sustainability crowd who’ve been working on this for decades.

                      I get your position pretty well, not sure why you always resort to ad hominems though. Let’s shorthand it. You’re a Green Tech who believes in Energy Stability, I’m an Earth Steward who believes in Energy Descent.

                      http://www.futurescenarios.org/content/view/16/31/index.html

                      http://www.futurescenarios.org/content/view/27/46/index.html

                      btw Holmgren wrote that in 2007 and has changed his position somewhat due to reassessing PO/CC (PO is slower than anticipated, CC is faster and worse) But it’s still a useful model so that people like you and I can understand and talk each other.

                      We can argue the theories, but to write off my arguments as confused (and yours as the Truth) is just lazy thinking.

                      All that aside, the basic principle of using less energy and resources to meet our needs is sound.

        • framu 7.5.1.3
          3 November 2014 at 3:14 pm

          well when you see new houses going in that are all about how it looks from the street and nothing to do with efficient placement of windows or the entire house theres a long road to go yet

          ive even seen sections with amazing north facing views having houses with most of the windows facing the road on the south side of the section. Great views from the toilet i spose

          • Molly 7.5.1.3.1
            3 November 2014 at 7:28 pm

            Had a interesting – and fruitless discussion with a planner about the need to design roads, particularly new subdivisions with the intention of allowing any dwellings built there to be designed with best orientation to the sun for passive solar.

            (Was almost laughed out of the room when I repeated this at an Auckland Council consultation.)

            They are more concerned with specifying allowable building materials, visibility of front door etc.

            This discussion took place during a Private Plan Change of long established and utilised Grade I soil market gardening property, that was converted to residential.

            Issues concerning the stormwater runoff into streams was treated with the same disregard.

            • mickysavage 7.5.1.3.1.1
              3 November 2014 at 9:14 pm

              This is one of those comments when you have an eureka moment. Of course streets should be aligned so that houses and buildings then maximise passive power generation. Thanks Molly.

          • Macro 7.5.1.3.2
            3 November 2014 at 7:33 pm

            Yep! I spent several years setting out such new developments in and around auckland. The prime concern for the developer was to pack as many houses of the desired size into the available area as was possible – all other considerations were ignored. This is what you get when you open up the development of a town to private business. The chase for Maximum Profit to the exclusion of all else.

            • weka 7.5.1.3.2.1
              3 November 2014 at 8:20 pm

              Sadly a big chunk of the savings* that should have some from better insulated houses has been lost by the increase in house size.

              *I mean ecological footprint wise, but it probably applies to finances too.

          • Colonial Rawshark 7.5.1.3.3
            3 November 2014 at 8:14 pm

            Then you have the morans who will happily go into debt $500K or more for this shite.

            What a way to use up the earth’s finite resources.

  9. left for deadshark 9
    3 November 2014 at 10:44 am

    Good morning everyone,
    Has anyone else had problems voting online (for the leadership) Ta

  10. adam 10
    3 November 2014 at 10:44 am

    Ocean acidification – If this goes south, so do we.

    Quick video which explains the impact on one very important animal – the squid.

    http://www.whoi.edu/oceanus/viewArticle.do?id=201109

  11. phillip ure 11
    3 November 2014 at 11:21 am

    whew..!..that’s a relief..!

    ..mike williams thinks that key is being honest with us on this slow-march to war..

    ..we can all relax now..

    (and williams is pimping/voting for parker…just so ya know..)

  12. mickysavage 12
    3 November 2014 at 11:28 am

    And on Radio New Zealand Matthew Hooton just said that he gets accurate insights of Labour Party thinking from reading the Standard. I don’t know if this is a good thing or not …

    • phillip ure 12.1
      3 November 2014 at 11:38 am

      ..the reference was also that opinion here is usually behind who actually wins..

      ..and therefor the standard is a reasonably accurate barometer of grassroots labour party thinking..

      ..in that the coherent anti-shearer/pro-cunnliffe voices were loud here..

      ..and that the mood here currently is giving little the nod…

      ..which i wd agree with..

      ..and funny how neo-lib fanboy williams favours parker..wot with parker and his coven of far-right support..(all the old/expected names are there..)

      • Skinny 12.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 12:02 pm

        Should have asked Robertson this question;

        According to Mike Williams your’ve lost support from caucus and their now voting for Mike’s ‘hot favourite’ David Parker, do you think you will actually get the vote of your nominator or are you a one trick pony-your own vote?

    • Skinny 12.2
      3 November 2014 at 11:55 am

      I gathered he was referring to many of your posts. Wasn’t sure if I should laugh or cry, so I cried laughing.

    • swordfish 12.3
      3 November 2014 at 12:06 pm

      And like many leading MSM journalists, Hooton believes (or would have listeners believe) that we’re all Labour Party activists here. When, of course, more than half of us aren’t even Party members, let alone activists.

      • Matthew Hooton 12.3.1
        3 November 2014 at 1:41 pm

        I make no such claim. What I believe is that this site gives a good insight into what is likely to happen next in Labour Party politics. So the tendency for people posting and commenting here to be more favourable to Andrew Little is one of the reasons I think he is the frontrunner.

        • ropata:rorschach 12.3.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 1:54 pm

          Do you have $$$ at stake on iPredict Matthew?
          How come there isn’t a contract for Nanaia Mahuta?

        • lprent 12.3.1.2
          3 November 2014 at 2:53 pm

          Well he is pretty much at the top of my list at present. Either 1 or 2.

          Ok, sounds like I don’t leave the NZLP and blame it on you..

        • Skinny 12.3.1.3
          3 November 2014 at 3:18 pm

          Cut the snake oil out Hooton. Your not addressing the gullible public here.

          I heard you asserting total spin about the affiliate’s vote for Little. At best it was an assumption, which I note you never corrected. Robertson has pulled the servo’s vote and the secondary vote with another Union. You know this but fail to say so because it suits your narrative about the dog wagging the tail etc.  

          • Colonial Rawshark 12.3.1.3.1
            3 November 2014 at 8:39 pm

            Robertson has pulled the servo’s vote

            Hmmmm. RObertson might have pulled *half* the servos’ vote. Maybe.

            But just think how many Maori and PI servos there are in South Dunedin.

            • Matthew Hooton 12.3.1.3.1.1
              4 November 2014 at 8:52 pm

              Doesn’t the SFWU have a full membership vote? (So how would anyone yet know who the Union was likely to back?)

    • DoublePlus Good 12.4
      3 November 2014 at 1:01 pm

      Given that he can’t understand most of the concepts that get discussed on here, and that he filters everything he sees or hears through a very unusual lens, I think it is likely that he will misinterpret a lot of what is on here, and probably get some very strange ideas to boot.

    • lprent 12.5
      3 November 2014 at 1:12 pm

      There are a few of Labour party activists on here. There are even more from the Labour ulterior. Quite a few Greens. Then there are ones who seem to waver all over the place.

    • Tracey 12.6
      3 November 2014 at 2:21 pm

      its his perpetuation of the lie that the standard IS the labour party.

      • lprent 12.6.1
        3 November 2014 at 2:43 pm

        Perhaps I should drop out of the Labour party (I really am having problems being interested in the NZLP at present because they are so damn slow at accepting change) and get highly offended every time he refers to the site as being Labour. Big banner post screaming “Hooton lying again”. In fact I should just start doing it to everyone that refers to us by anything except what we describe in our about.

        • Tracey 12.6.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 2:45 pm

          why not… to everything you wrote.

          hooton will lie and lie. it is in his DNA.

          even if you stop your lp membership he will still lie.

        • Matthew Hooton 12.6.1.2
          3 November 2014 at 5:45 pm

          I didn’t claim that the site is Labour. I said the site gives me good insights into what some of the Labour grassroots are thinking, because many people with Labour backgrounds/links post or comment here.

          • lprent 12.6.1.2.1
            3 November 2014 at 8:38 pm

            I gathered that after I’d read further back in the comment stream. I usually don’t get a good listen to radio in the morning so I was just reacting to someone elses report of it.

            But I do think that I will have to drop out of Labour. There are far too many silly fools around who think being a member of a party paying something like $20 a year means that I am owned by them. Some of these are inside Labour, some outside.

            I think that I’d have more fun making fun of fools from outside any party.

            Besides I have a particular set of services that I am thinking I may want to give away to parties on the left. I think it’d work better from outside any party.

          • Tracey 12.6.1.2.2
            4 November 2014 at 1:36 pm

            yeah yeah. you will of course now at every opportunity in the media clarify, so there is no confusion that this site is not connected to the lp.

            you use words so you can slip and slide your way round. you use words which literally may not say what is heard but you KNOW that they will be misconstrued.

  13. Penny Bright 13
    3 November 2014 at 11:45 am

    Press Release Sue Henry Spokesperson Housing Lobby:
    “Charity treachery sells out State Housing tenants.”

    3 November 2014

    “State Housing tenants could see this attempted privatisation of State Housing coming – and it needs to be stopped in its tracks!” says Housing Lobby Spokesperson, Sue Henry.

    “Please be reminded of the warnings we made in the following Press Releases”:

    17 May 2013

    “The relentless budgetary attacks on State housing tenants and their families, clearly highlights the treacherous role private sector charities have played in the housing policy-making process.” says Housing Lobby Spokesperson Sue Henry.

    (April 2010 Housing Shareholders Advisory Group Report )

    http://www.dbh.govt.nz/UserFiles/File/Publications/Sector/pdf/vision-for-social-housing-nz.pdf

    http://www.dbh.govt.nz/social-housing-nz

    “Government have successfully used the private social housing sector as the mechanism to privatise the State housing stock and land these homes
    sit on.”

    “It was a sad day when people like Major Campbell Roberts from the Salvation Army, were on the same Board sitting beside property developers to form policies for temporary tenancy agreements, which, if implemented, will invariably create transcience and homelessness.
    ( #1 EVIDENCE)”

    “* Promoting submerging the housing subsidy into into the Ministry of Social Development did not work in the 1990’s due to the widening gap between the accommodation supplement and the ‘market’ rents – with a cap on subsidies, combined with over-inflated property values, this will have huge negative impacts on State housing tenants.”

    “* As will retrospectively extending the assessments on long-term existing tenants. This effectively equates to a sophisticated form of elder abuse and bullying , impacting on elderly pensioners, widows of Returned Servicemen, the disabled, and the vulnerable, who are legitimately in these homes.”

    “SOLUTIONS:

    * Tenure protection must be immediately reinstated for these State housing tenants.

    * State housing must be provided by central government, not privatised by stealth, by hanging the portfolio over to non-accountable, non-transparent, duplicated ‘social’ housing providers,” concluded Sue Henry.

    #1 EVIDENCE

    (April 2010 Housing Shareholders Advisory Group Report )

    http://www.dbh.govt.nz/UserFiles/File/Publications/Sector/pdf/vision-for-social-housing-nz.pdf

    “Appendix 2: Housing Shareholders Advisory Group

    Members

    Alan Jackson (chair) is former senior vice president in the Auckland office of The Boston Consulting Group. He is also a director of Fletcher Building and a trustee of The Icehouse business growth centre in Auckland. Dr Jackson has significant experience in change management with expertise in resources, diversified industrials, building products and construction sectors.

    Major Campbell Roberts is the director of the New Zealand, Fiji and Tonga
    Territory Social Policy and Parliamentary Unit of the Salvation Army. He is also a trustee of the New Zealand Housing Foundation, a director of the Centre for Housing Research Aotearoa New Zealand and the Auckland Housing Trust. Major Roberts is a media spokesperson, writer and speaker and has experience on issues of poverty and social housing.

    Andrew Body is a director of Crown Fibre Holdings and various private sector companies. He has 20 years experience as an investment banker, focussing on strategic and transactional advice to owners and managers of businesses. Mr Body has experience across a wide range of sectors in the New Zealand economy including the property sector.

    Martin Udale is an independent consultant with more than 30 years experience in the New Zealand, UK and Australian property markets, including developing some of the first office parks in Sydney and Brisbane. He was most recently the chief executive of McConnell Property, and has also been director of corporate advisory with CRI, an Australian property development and services group, specialising in partnering with asset owners to create value from underused assets.

    Diane Robertson is head of the Auckland City Mission and is the first non-clergy female City Missioner. She previously had roles on the Committee for Auckland, the Auckland University Community Advisory Board, Springboard Trust, Robin Hood Foundation, Child Poverty Action Group and the New Zealand Institute. Ms Robertson’s experience is in social and emergency housing issues.

    Brian Donnelly is executive director of the New Zealand Housing Foundation. He is also a director of the Centre for Housing Research Aotearoa New Zealand (CHRANZ), a trustee of the Queenstown Lakes District Community Housing Trust, a member of the Social Entrepreneur Fellowship and chair of the Wilson Home Trust. He has experience in social housing issues, including operating and managing a social housing organisation.

    Paul White is the Principal of Torea Tai Consultants, specialising in consultancy on Maori development, housing and strategic planning. He is also the chair of Te Waka Pupuri Putea (an Iwi asset holding company) and a council member of FITEC, the forestry sector training organisation. Mr White has previously been chief executive of Ngai Tahu Development Corporation and a member of the Housing New Zealand Board. He has experience in the operation and management of housing. ”
    _________________________________________________________

    Sue Henry
    Spokesperson
    Housing Lobby

    ………………………….

    ______________________________________________________

    BACKGROUND INFORMATION:

    13 May 2013

    Press Release: Sue Henry Spokesperson, Housing Lobby:

    “We cannot and will not allow the failed ‘social housing’ model to take over State Housing.”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/8662181/Govt-plans-to-ditch-Housing-NZ-properties

    “Housing Minister Nick Smith will be setting up the private charity sector to compete against the poor if he implements the failed social housing model from countries like the UK and Canada”, says Housing Lobby Spokesperson Sue Henry.

    “We must retain the State Housing system we have and central Government must be responsible for it.”

    “The private charity sector (trusts included) will never provide a better service for State tenants.”

    “Under the provision of housing being delivered by private charities the income-related rents would go and State tenants would be paying market rents, as the previous Housing Minister Phil Heatley acknowledged the housing subsidy would be halved. (‘The Nation 1&2 October 2011).
    Tenants would effectively only be temporary visitors in ‘transit’ housing.”

    _________________________________________________________

    http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1110/S00006/the-nation-phil-heatley.htm

    [“Duncan Okay, what happens if they move out of a state house?
    You move them out and they get a private dwelling or a social housing somewhere else, are they eligible for income related rents.
    Phil No, if they move from a state house they get income related rents which is worth about $9000 a year.

    Duncan What happens if you kick them out to private dwellings?

    Phil If they move to a private rental then they qualify not for income related rents which is about $8000 a year on average, they might get something like the accommodation supplement which is worth about $4000 a year.

    Duncan So you’re sitting here today telling me that for those people and there will be cases, they’re gonna be worse off?

    Phil No because if they’re in a state house, the amount of rent they pay depends on their income, so if their income doesn’t change when they shift from public to private…

    Duncan But you’re telling me that they’re going to move to – potentially move to a private dwelling, so you can get other high needs people into that state house that they could be worse off. Can you sit here and say no one will be worse off?

    Phil No, no I can’t. There’s a whole bunch of people in state houses at the moment who are being subsidised and have been there for a long time who we’re encouraging to move on.

    Duncan How are they going to afford to go, because these people are already poor aren’t they?…”

    _________________________________________________________

    “Private charities would not be ‘transparent’ or accountable and nepotism would be rife, as proven by the following UK research” :
    _________________________________________________________

    CORRUPTION IN THE UK PART TWO – Transparency International …
    http://www.transparency.org.uk/component/cckjseblod/?…publication...

    ” 4.5.1 Types of social housing corruption

    The social housing sector neatly demonstrates how closely aligned fraud and corruption can be. For example, the recent BBC documentary, The Great Housing Rip Off, estimated that approximately £3.5 billion of housing benefit is directed towards landlords who house tenants in very poor accommodation. While this is a misuse of entrusted power, it is more likely to be considered a fraudulent use of housing benefit.138

    The main types of corruption in the social housing sector are:

    • Tenancy fraud and corruption;
    • Abuse of position by social landlords;
    • Collusion and corruption in procurement…..”
    _________________________________________________________

    “Overseas, the ‘social housing model’ has delivered wealthy, duplicated administrative bodies, severe cuts in rent subsidies and cardboard box cities and tenement slums,” continues Sue Henry.

    _________________________________________________________

    http://www.corporatewatch.org/?lid=4180

    “Privatisation wave#2: demunicipalisation by any means
    It was soon evident that the Right to Buy had natural limits – not least that poorer tenants would never be able to afford or access a mortgage – and although discounts would continue to rise over the decade, reaching 70% of market price,[10] the Conservatives unveiled a second privatisation wave from 1985 onwards that focused on selling council homes en masse to alternative landlords in the private and charity sectors. All manner of initiatives were tried and failed, and through resisting, tenants won the statutory right to be balloted on any privatisation proposals and be able to block them if they lacked majority support.

    By the late 1980s, however, many local authorities began selling off their entire housing stocks to existing and specially formed not-for-profit companies called housing associations in response to the government’s financial straitjacket and the realisation that they would financially benefit. Housing associations – or Registered Social Landlords as they are known – were regulated and barred from floating on the stock exchange, but they were also private companies that had greater freedoms to charge market rents, evict tenants and build private housing, and had limited democratic accountability.”
    ________________________________________________________________

    “People need to be reminded that here in New Zealand, care for the elderly devolved from private charity groups to now multinational companies, when the bulk-funding was cut.”

    http://www.business.auckland.ac.nz/Portals/4/Research/General/Wokiring_Paper_07_1_.pdf

    “We cannot and will not, allow this to happen to our State houses and our families.”

    Sue Henry
    Spokesperson
    Housing Lobby

    …………………..
    _________________________________________________________

    STATEMENT BY PENNY BRIGHT, 2013 AUCKLAND MAYORAL CANDIDATE:

    ” MY POSITION ON ‘SOCIAL HOUSING’ IS UNCHANGED FROM 2010″:

    http://waterpressure.wordpress.com/2010/09/07/response-from-auckland-mayoral-candidate-penny-bright-to-waitakere-housing-call-to-action/

    “…INCREASED HOUSING PROVISION:

    1) First – I believe we need to head off the proposed housing decrease through giving private sector organisations huge chunks of existing housing stock and to ban any sale of existing state housing stock.

    I am opposed to ‘devolution’ of the provision of housing to ‘not-for-profit’ NGOs, as I believe it is still privatisation.

    For example – care for the aged has devolved from the ‘not-for-profit’ church groups to ‘for profit’ multinational companies.

    http://www.business.auckland.ac.nz/Portals/4/Research/General/Wokiring_Paper_07_1_.pdf(Pg 17)

    “The CEO of Presbyterian Support noted that the charitable organisations “reluctantly” exited the market which was increasingly dominated by “large national and multinational providers” (Presbyterian Support East Coast, 2005).

    2004 also saw the sale of facilities belonging to the Auckland Methodists and Hastings St John of God (Presbyterian Support East Coast, 2005).

    Charitable providers seemed to find the government’s then $80 daily subsidy5 made their business unsustainable (“No budget money for providers of residential care”, 2005).

    In contrast to the charitable providers, the large for-profit providers are expanding within the market.
    The Macquarie Group recently purchased Eldercare NZ .”

    I believe we need to retain Housing New Zealand (HNZ) as a ‘one stop shop’ entity.

    Housing is a Government responsibility, and if all Council tenants came under the HNZ umbrella, they too would have more affordable rents at 25% of their net income.

    (As happened when Auckland City Council pensioner housing was taken over by HNZ in 2004). …………”

    Penny Bright

    ‘Anti-corruption/anti-privatisation’ campaigner

    2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate

    …………………………
    …………………………

  14. Sirenia 14
    3 November 2014 at 12:05 pm

    Just wonder how long support for Little will last if he wins and starts overriding democratically elected progressive party policy that people have put a lot of time and energy into developing. On the other hand, not sure how many people here actually participate in those party discussions, so might not matter.

    I saw that process the 1980s.

    • Skinny 14.1
      3 November 2014 at 12:21 pm

      I would be taking the broom to the policy council. Honestly I was very vocal over the raising the retirement age policy, going as far as wanting my ‘reject’ vote on record, the beltway were pushing that one and were very matter of fact and pleased as punch it got carried. Of course they are all ducking for cover now. There were a high number of plucked out of thin air policies close to the election that disturbed me. And a lack of specific policy when it come to Maori. Labour can count their lucky stars no big fuss was made by Maori MP’s who just toed the party line as they usually do.

    • weka 14.2
      3 November 2014 at 12:24 pm

      There seem to be enough Labour party activists here.

      What makes you think Little will override policy as opposed to the other candidates? Which policy do you mean?

      • Sirenia 14.2.1
        3 November 2014 at 12:53 pm

        Because he has said he will – re the CGT particularly but others implied. Said it in Wellington and was reported in the Press as saying it in the Christchurch meeting too. No point in developing progressive policy if the parliamentary leader overrides it. As I said echoes of the 1980s when the Rogernomes ignored the party wishes.

        • Karen 14.2.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 1:09 pm

          What Little has said is that perhaps the CGT should be a second term policy so that there could be resources put into a working out all the details before an election. He is actually in favour of a CGT, but felt National were able to confuse the public during the election campaign, and this meant Labour spent too long trying to defend it and were unable to talk about other policy.

          He is definitely not a Rogernome, though I am old enough to understand your concerns.

          • Keir 14.2.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 1:26 pm

            It’s not just the CGT though – he specifically dismissed the democratic party process with “well, the leader’s got to lead”. I personally found that very frustrating – when I was on Policy Council, we put a lot of work into the democratic and accountable processes precisely so that the leader can’t just change major foundational policy on a whim.

            The CGT is in the platform. If Little wants to amend the platform, he’s welcome, like any other member, to bring an amendment to annual conference. But the leader doesn’t get to dictate what goes in the platform – that’s the whole point of the new process!

  15. weka 15
    3 November 2014 at 12:46 pm

    More from Pete at Whale Oil on Slater’s donation drive,

    http://www.donotlink.com/framed?575942

    Seems the trust account he wanted donations paid into is his lawyers’ billing account, and they don’t want to be associated with him. Also looks like he didn’t bother asking them if the donations could go there. What a dick.

    So now there is a Slater specific bank account to donate to, separate to the WO business, but no declaration of who oversees the account. Of course not, why be publicly accountable when you don’t have to be.

    • The Al1en 15.1
      3 November 2014 at 12:53 pm

      Sounds like the ship has sunk and the rat is getting lonely treading water.
      That sob story should get his blog regulars heartstrings well and truly tugged.
      I wonder if he’ll be posting the private addresses of his lawyers as payback?

      • weka 15.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 1:15 pm

        The lack of boundaries is interesting. That they didn’t think to ask the solicitor who handles his lawyer’s finances if they could get public money donated directly to that account. Apart from being decent courtesy, there may also have been accounting issues if the firm got lots of small and varied donations. Plus it’s not normal to treat other people’s bank accounts as your own.

        The rest of it is the same old poor me, everyone else is wrong, here’s the conspiracy. They can’t understand why a firm wouldn’t want to be associated with Brand Slater? Best lolz of the week.

        • Weepus beard 15.1.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 1:58 pm

          Post count over there seems to have plummeted too. They must be packing themselves. They keep going on about how they’ve changed! LOL.

          Good job. Decent New Zealand might be rid of that boil soon.

          • weka 15.1.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 2:02 pm

            Here’s hoping. I’d forgotten about Cactus Cate too until she was mentioned yesterday. That she lost her job is awesome.

            What’s funniest about Pete’s lament is that he can’t see that people will abhor Slater without any conspiring from the left.

        • Tracey 15.1.1.2
          3 November 2014 at 2:23 pm

          and why wouldnt a law firm want to be paid

          • Hayden 15.1.1.2.1
            3 November 2014 at 4:46 pm

            They probably don’t want to be paid $60,000 in $5 increments.

            • Tracey 15.1.1.2.1.1
              4 November 2014 at 1:38 pm

              wouldnt bother them, it all going into a single account. there is a reason, which slater is not giving, wht this firm doesnt want to be paid

    • b waghorn 15.2
      3 November 2014 at 1:29 pm

      My cheque books in hell at the moment but as soon as it freezes over I’ll nip down and get it and send poor old slater some money

    • ropata:rorschach 15.3
      3 November 2014 at 5:09 pm

      Maybe I should offer Slater some free life coaching and website management.
      (remedy: close the blog, enforced internet curfew, try and find an honest job)

  16. Penny Bright 16
    3 November 2014 at 1:37 pm

    Here are some more FACTS in which thinking folk may be interested?

    Some STRANGE ‘bedfellows’ here?

    (Or not?)

    Take a look at the ‘Honorary’ members of the shadowy, unelected private sector BIG business lobby group, which arguably really runs the Auckland region ……

    http://www.committeeforauckland.co.nz/membership/members

    Auckland City Mission Logo 2014
    Property Council NZ Logo 2014
    Salvation Army Logo 2014

    Auckland Communities Foundation Logo 2014
    Austrade Logo 2014
    Chinese Consulate General Logo 2014
    US Consulate General Logo 2014
    NZCID Logo 2014
    The Icehouse Logo 2014

    Then – check out the ‘Individual Members’ of this same Committee for Auckland …

    Individual Members

    Diane Robertson Trustee, Committee for Auckland

    Anne Blackburn Director, Committee for Auckland
    Sir Ron Carter Parton, Committee for Auckland
    Brian Corban
    Richard Didsbury Chair, Committee for Auckland
    Sally Garrett
    Dame Jenny Gibbs
    Michael Lorimer
    Chris Mace
    Kelly Martin
    Peter Menzies
    Bryan Mogridge Trustee, Committee for Auckland
    Jane Vesty
    Peter Wall Director, Committee for Auckland

    ________________________________________________________________________________________

    No wonder I’m being ‘neck-stamped’ as an ‘anti-corruption whistle-blower’?

    Who else is trying to help shine a public spotlight on these BIG business interests?

    Is it any wonder that Auckland Council and other Auckland Council Controlled Organisations (CCOs), have failed to follow the law and provide genuine transparency in rates spending on private sector consultants and contractors?

    Just look at who are ‘corporate members’ of the Committee for Auckland:

    Auckland Council Logo 2014
    ATEED Logo 2014
    Regional Facilities Auckland Logo 2014
    Watercare Services Logo 2014
    Waterfront Auckland Logo 2014

    Maybe there are a number of vested interests here – who DON’T want citizens and ratepayers to be able to ‘follow the dollar’ ….?

    All happening in the biggest city in what is ‘perceived’ to be the ‘least corrupt country in the world’ …..

    Kind regards,

    Penny Bright

  17. weka 17
    3 November 2014 at 1:56 pm

    “Should Nelson schools offer compulsory classes on sexual consent for teenagers?”

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/nelson-mail/news/10694349/Calls-for-class-on-sexual-consent

    • Tracey 17.1
      3 November 2014 at 2:28 pm

      pre election key was shying away from this when his polling showed growing support for CP. … he needs to be asked again.

  18. Tracey 18
    3 November 2014 at 2:26 pm

    watched Pride last night.

    made me sad for the nz lp and those who rail about identity politics forgetting that lp used to be the party of all downtrodden and oppressed and together they changed the world.

    if you can afford to go and see it… you wont regret it.

  19. Karen 19
    3 November 2014 at 2:49 pm

    “Pride” is definitely worth the ticket price. It is also surprisingly accurate historically as you can see in this 1986 documentary available on youtube.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHJhbwEcgrA

  20. Chooky 20
    3 November 2014 at 3:01 pm

    Given the recent ridicule and attacks on the Greens over homeopathy in the Herald and by Matthew Hooton…some points to consider:

    ‘Homeopathic Medicine: Europe’s #1 Alternative for Doctors’

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dana-ullman/homeopathic-medicine-euro_b_402490.html

    ” Numerous surveys over the past 150 plus years have confirmed that people who seek homeopathic treatment tend to be considerably more educated than those who don’t (1). What is not as well known is the fact that homeopathic medicine is the leading “alternative” treatment used by physicians in Europe…and growing numbers of the citizenry.

    And despite homeopathy’s impressive popularity in Europe, it is actually even more popular in India where over 100 million people depend solely on this form of medical care (2). Further, according to an A.C. Neilsen survey in India, 62 percent of current homeopathy users have never tried conventional medicines and 82 percent of homeopathy users would not switch to conventional treatments (3)…..

    [In the absence of any outright cure and prevention or vaccination against Ebola …it would seem sensible to consider trying homeopathy]

    • minarch 20.1
      3 November 2014 at 3:20 pm

      Homeopathy is a type of alternative medicine invented in the late 18th century by a German physician called Samuel Hahnemann.

      It is based on the idea: “let like cure like” (similia similibus curentur),

      meaning that a substance that causes disease symptoms can also cure those same symptoms & dilution increases potency.

      Both ideas are not only the opposite of what medicine usually observes, but the opposite of common sense too.

      Homeopathy is fundamentally different from herbal medicine, with which it is often confused. While some “homeopathic” medicines are simply herbal supplements labelled as homeopathic, true homeopathic remedies are so greatly diluted that they contain no active ingredients. The only measurable ingredients are water and/or alcohol

      • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 3:35 pm

        true homeopathic remedies are so greatly diluted that they contain no active ingredients. The only measurable ingredients are water and/or alcohol

        Bearing in mind that one part in a million is quite different to zero parts in a million. And organisms can tell the difference.

        • minarch 20.1.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 3:48 pm

          can you tell me ONE chemical (apart from LSD ) that is active @ 1 ppm ?

          A finite quantity cannot be infinitely divided. This is because molecules themselves cannot be divided – once we dilute to the last few molecules further dilution gives a decreasing likelihood that the resulting solution will contain even one molecule of the solute.

          you could drink cyanide at that dilution with no effect…

          most liquid homeopathic remedies are most commonly about 80-proof grain alcohol, which puts them roughly equivalent to a strong vodka.

          That happy feeling is not the homeopathic medicine working, it’s the booze kicking in.

          • adam 20.1.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 4:37 pm

            Yes, and that has been working for the Russians for some time now.

          • weka 20.1.1.1.2
            3 November 2014 at 6:00 pm

            “most liquid homeopathic remedies are most commonly about 80-proof grain alcohol, which puts them roughly equivalent to a strong vodka.

            That happy feeling is not the homeopathic medicine working, it’s the booze kicking in.”

            🙄

          • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1.1.3
            3 November 2014 at 6:38 pm

            can you tell me ONE chemical (apart from LSD ) that is active @ 1 ppm ?

            Plenty of organisms are sensitive to chemical concentrations in the single digit ppm range. Occasionally enough to change organism behaviour and physiology. Lots of research to demonstrate this is so.

            Open your eyes. Some perspectives in conventional medicine are still 50+ years behind other university taught sciences. Only economics lags behind further.

            you could drink cyanide at that dilution with no effect…

            Your idea of what “no effect” means and what I think it means is clearly different.

            • minarch 20.1.1.1.3.1
              4 November 2014 at 1:57 pm

              “Open your eyes. Some perspectives in conventional medicine are still 50+ years behind other university taught sciences. Only economics lags behind further.”

              open your eyes, quackery is quackery…

              “Plenty of organisms are sensitive to chemical concentrations in the single digit ppm range. Occasionally enough to change organism behaviour and physiology. Lots of research to demonstrate this is so.”

              Ok fine, im sure SOME organisms are sensitive to chemicals @ the 1 ppm range, just not human beings

              Im no opponent of alternative medicines, I apply *cough herbal medicine regularly for a neurological impairment I suffer from, but Homeopathy is just to far off the scale for me personally….

              google medorrhinum and see what i mean….

              (yes the recipe really does include gonorrheal discharge , your read it correctly )

          • Craig H 20.1.1.1.4
            3 November 2014 at 8:05 pm

            Here’s a list of them at the bottom of the table:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IDLH

        • Chooky 20.1.1.2
          3 November 2014 at 5:10 pm

          +100 CR….viruses ( and causes of disease imbalance) are tiny and may require very subtle treatment at the micro level

          …..the issue is whether homeopathics work or not ( not so much whether one understands why/how they work)…and the situation of antibiotics today hardly gives cause for complacency…overuse and many now increasingly useless …also they can have adverse gut side effects….makes one look for alternatives

          Before going to India I was told by a Westerner who had lived in India for 10 years that they had endless stomach problems and diarrhea until they were advised to abandon Western medicine and take homeopathics from the local Indian doctor around the corner…problem solved…worked for me too ( although my partner who took western medicine developed an allergy to sulphur drugs and ended up in hospital with dehydration)

          • Ergo Robertina 20.1.1.2.1
            3 November 2014 at 7:29 pm

            +1 Chooky and CVR.
            It’s a fascinating question re how homeopathy works, but then many people use tech gadgets every day about whose workings they wouldn’t have a clue.
            I probably wouldn’t have tried it otherwise, but a close friend was a homeopathy practitioner, and it worked well for some things. I couldn’t get my head around the concept, and being a rather literal type this was difficult. So we just agreed the sugar pills worked for me somehow and it was fine. But if homeopathy is just about the placebo effect, what explains its apparent efficacy in animals.?

        • KJT 20.1.1.3
          3 November 2014 at 7:42 pm

          CV. You are almost certainly drinking water with much higher levels of minerals than 1 in a million right now. Can you tell?

          Plenty of “scientific” studies has shown that the placebo effect is real.

          Even the extra attention that patients get during a study makes a difference, one of the problems with educational research also. that is why we have double blind trials.

          • Colonial Rawshark 20.1.1.3.1
            3 November 2014 at 10:54 pm

            CV. You are almost certainly drinking water with much higher levels of minerals than 1 in a million right now. Can you tell?

            In chiropractic parlance, my body’s educated intelligence probably cannot tell. But its innate intelligence certainly can.

            Even the extra attention that patients get during a study makes a difference, one of the problems with educational research also. that is why we have double blind trials.

            And the result being that we get plenty of ‘efficacious’ treatments which work fine in an experimental setting but are shite in real life settings.

            In other words the irony is that the way of validating “knowledge” you describe (randomised double blinded placebo controlled trials etc) leads to plenty of knowledge which breaks down in real life.

            Which makes you wonder whether or not it was particularly true or useful knowledge in the first place.

            Plenty of “scientific” studies has shown that the placebo effect is real.

            Yes it is. The real question is – what is the placebo effect, and why is it so powerful in so many varied situations? Science does not know the answer to *that*.

    • chris73 20.2
      3 November 2014 at 4:59 pm

      You’re right with your views on bacon but wrong on this one

      • Chooky 20.2.1
        3 November 2014 at 5:12 pm

        smirk…well at least i am 50% right in your opinion….but what do i think of your opinion?…50% right

    • KJT 20.3
      3 November 2014 at 7:44 pm

      Well. I think that shows that more education does not necessarily make people more discerning, thoughtful or sensible.

    • fisiani 20.4
      3 November 2014 at 8:52 pm

      My God. Homeopathy is just water. Do you not realise that??? It cures thirst and dehydration. Nothing else.

    • northshoredoc 20.5
      5 November 2014 at 8:24 am

      Chooky you are an imbecile !

      Homeopathy has been debunked many many times.

      http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/51-facts-about-homeopathy/

      http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/08/homeopathy-is-bunk-study-says

      http://consultations.nhmrc.gov.au/public_consultations/homeopathy_health

      “….. the NHMRC review, conducted by a working committee of medical experts, said it had no impact on a range of conditions and illnesses including asthma, arthritis, sleep disturbances, cold and flu, chronic fatigue syndrome, eczema, cholera, burns, malaria and heroin addiction.”

  21. Draco T Bastard 21
    3 November 2014 at 3:14 pm

    Ukraine crisis: Rebel elections obstacle to peace – EU

    No, actually, they’re not. They’re fully supported in international law and the right to self-determination as specified in the UN Charter.

    The oligarch’s must be getting real upset as people leave their control.

    • Colonial Rawshark 21.1
      3 November 2014 at 3:37 pm

      And its going to be happening more and more as some of the promises and perks that the power elite used to buy entire nations compliance with now cannot be delivered, and instead they are having to rely more on threats and coercion.

      • adam 21.1.1
        3 November 2014 at 4:38 pm

        You can’t eat nationalism

        • Colonial Rawshark 21.1.1.1
          3 November 2014 at 6:39 pm

          do you think globalised neoliberalism is doing a better job of feeding the people?

          • adam 21.1.1.1.1
            3 November 2014 at 10:06 pm

            Nope, but nationalism, almost always ends in tears for working people. And lets call it what it is, liberalism, and not neoliberalism – it may think it’s new, but it’s the same shit which has kicked working people in the teeth for the last couple of hundred years.

  22. phillip ure 22
    3 November 2014 at 9:17 pm

    it really is shameful how harawira was invited onto the final episode of native affairs..

    ..and then his invitation was cancelled..

    ..on the orders of the new (key-appointed) head of maori tv..

    ….why..?..

    ..what is the head of maori tv afraid of..?

    ..that is seriously fucked up…

    ..(and i wonder if media take will cover it..?..this censorship of harawira..?..if not..why not..?..)

    ..and why isn’t the other media all over this like a rash..?

    ..this is surely chopping at the foundations of what they purport to be about..?

    ..it is media-censorship/stilling of dissident-voices..

    (..whither fucken democracy/free-speech..?)

    ..has harawira been put on a third-rail-list..by their media-bosses..?

    • Kiwiri - Raided of the Last Shark 22.1
      3 November 2014 at 11:40 pm

      If Hone Harawira or his team might be reading this, perhaps it would be an idea to send a piece here to be posted? Or (also) create a video, put it up on You Tube, and point out the link here.

  23. Tangled_up 23
    4 November 2014 at 5:10 pm

    MP demoted after suggesting homeopathy use in Ebola fight
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11353054

    Mrs Turei said the demotion sent a signal that the Green Party took an evidence-based approach to health issues, especially public health issues.

    She said the move was about “rebuilding confidence” in the party.

    Good job. People need to be able to take the Green Party seriously.

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