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Open mike 04/06/2014

Written By: - Date published: 7:05 am, June 4th, 2014 - 366 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

openmike Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

366 comments on “Open mike 04/06/2014 ”

  1. Paul 1

    Thousands of words have been written about the issue of net neutrality. Most of those words have been incomprehensible to the average reader and internet user, who isn’t even sure about what net neutrality is, let alone why it would be a problem were it to disappear.

    Fortunately, John Oliver summed up in under a minute exactly why this issue is a big deal on the latest episode of ‘Last Week Tonight.’

    • McFlock 1.1

      saw that last night – funny while accurate and better reporting than we usually see, all at the same time

  2. worst-beard-ever..

    jordan carter on tvone breakfast..


    ..have a fucken shave..!

    ..for humanitys’ sake..!

  3. bad12 3

    Cheers LPrent, i can’t speak for everyone, but, you appear to have wrestled the glitch in the machine, evident in the last coupe of days, into submission…

    • bad12 3.1

      Ooops, spoke too soon, two comments appear,and then, its back into the ethereal unknown…

      • lprent 3.1.1

        Ok. Running out of options.

        Turned off a new option that filters against a list of known spammer and virus sources. It doesn’t say what the effect is, but dumping it into spam would seem likely.

        • bad12

          Afternoon LPrent, better you than me as far as trying to figure out where the ghost in the machine is,

          Just with my laptop i have enough problems, last weeks was first firefox/windows telling me that my profile at my IP provider couldn’t be found and i am temporarily logged onto the net,

          That arrangement collapsed and after a couple of hours of rummaging i managed to by accident get it up and running again,(stupid me when i am practicing my computer un-genius skills never writes down the steps i took to arrive at a solution),

          i don’t know why i get the ‘feeling’ that somewhere in ”wordpress” is the current problem located, anyway, i gave the info above just in case it is actually my little problem that might in some way be adding to the one your having…

  4. any velvet underground fans out there..?

    ..andy warhol made a film of them live..in 1967..


  5. bad12 5

    The previous actions of Donghua Liu in His homeland would be very suggestive that in His mind every cent spent,(or slipped into the pocket of),on a politician or political party is with the intent of having a favor returned,

    The Orivida/Donghua Liu National Party should come clean on exactly what the favors have so far been as a return on the capital given,

    Far from lying with dogs giving one of the players in this little farce fleas, these dogs happily share their’s…

  6. freedom 6


  7. Ad 7

    Note Todd Muller Head of Co-operative Affairs at Fonterra is now the National candidate for Bay of Plenty.

    If ever we needed an illustration of how closely entwined the interests of Fonterra, the New Zealand economy, and National are, it’s there.

    It is vital that a Labour-led government comprehensively review the monopoly legislation that formed Fonterra. Their focus on bulk dairy supply rather than value-add is slowly strangling our land and poisoning both our rivers and our politics.

    Todd Muller is a major Tier 2 corporate player from that world, and will bring significant personal and farmer donations to the campaign. While the National Party scoops the cream off the corporate and political world for its own renewal, the cost of this is simply no distinction between corporate and political life in New Zealand. That is our largest current threat to democracy.

    • Colonial Viper 7.1

      National has a high level of support from senior corporate levels and no matter how much Labour moves to the Right very few at those tiers will vote red, and even fewer will stand for Labour.

      Where’s the Labour strategy to win over the support of rural communities and provincial towns is my question. Amongst the general electorates, Labour holds no rural seats apart from West Coast Tasman IIRC.

      Labour will not get any lasting agreement from the ag/hort sector without grassroots farming community support. If we were to seriously phase large scale dairying out over 10 years what is Labour going to tell rural communities is going to replace those hundreds of millions of dollars that they will miss out on?

      Re: changing Fonterra legislation – I am not sure how that could be used to alter Fonterra’s product development, product management or export strategies.

      • Ad 7.1.1

        Chair, Cabinet

        Executive Summary

        On 23 January 2001 Cabinet agreed that the government’s objective for the dairy industry should be to maximise the returns from the industry to New Zealand while protecting the interests of New Zealand dairy farmers and consumers.”

        There’s a fair bit more on the purpose of setting up the monopoly. But it’s the source of the driver for this great sucking sound we have all over our land, namely; that production for price drives all.

        • Ad

          Just to expand on how a legislative review could assist us at the moment, a couple of suggestions.

          Instead of legislation specifically designed to “protect the interests of New Zealand farmers and consumers” as its purpose, would be changed to:
          “increase the value of New Zealand dairy exports at the least environmental impact”

          I would also require a Minister to be on the main Board, and for LandCorp to be on the Shareholders Council.

          • Colonial Viper

            Perhaps a simpler way would be to mandate a gradual reduction of stocking levels to say 2.5 cows/ha. forcing a consequent reduction in raw milk volumes and encouraging a move to higher value added production in order to maintain revenues and profits.

            Mind you, if this were done, a fair number of highly indebted dairy farms would go under.

            I would also require a Minister to be on the main Board, and for LandCorp to be on the Shareholders Council.

            These are all good innovative moves, but will probably only partly counter the clamour by institutional investors and farmer-shareholders for maximum profit. Definitely better than doing nothing though.

            • Ad

              De-stocking would require regional govt to be strong. They will always be weak regulators because they will always be stocked with Nats. See McKenzie country proposals already going.

              The problem won’t be solved by farmers when their core commercial driver is volume. The problem is Fonterra.

              • Colonial Viper

                De-stocking would require regional govt to be strong. They will always be weak regulators because they will always be stocked with Nats. See McKenzie country proposals already going.

                The McKenzie country proposals have the endorsement of a couple of dozen conservation, recreation, farming and local community/local government groups and there is plenty of good in it. Labour doesn’t like it but everyone else in the area does. It’s a proposal which will stand the test of time over decades, if it gets past the next couple of hurdles.

                The problem won’t be solved by farmers when their core commercial driver is volume. The problem is Fonterra.

                You can say that but farmers will need a high level of buy-in to whatever proposals are on the table. No government is going to survive having a couple of hundred tractors blocking Parliament grounds for long.

                Fonterra have already put on moderately strict environmental conditions on their farmer-suppliers and more is on the way as I understand. Efforts to make Fonterra into a kind of de facto government regulator will be interesting.

                • Ad

                  Not arguing all intensive dairying is bad – and the Mackenzie Agreement was hard -won. But as you can see from the Zeestraten proposal and others, Fonterras demand even in marginal country for more never stops.

                  We should not – on principle – make foreign consumer standards into Fonterra and NZ farmers’ de facto regulator. Surely you agree with that?

                  We need to attack the demand for value at source – at the milk drying plant. This is precisely the wrong development model for New Zealand.

      • Draco T Bastard 7.1.2

        If we were to seriously phase large scale dairying out over 10 years what is Labour going to tell rural communities is going to replace those hundreds of millions of dollars that they will miss out on?

        Whatever makes you think that the rural communities see any of those hundreds of millions?

        • minarch

          “If we were to seriously phase large scale dairying out over 10 years what is Labour going to tell rural communities is going to replace those hundreds of millions of dollars that they will miss out on?

          HEMP !!!!!!!!

          James cameron allready is

          Ive already been down with my big bag of Super Skunk pollen

          under .35% THC ?..not for long


          • phillip ure

            @ minarch..

            ..we must/should meet…

            ..cameron has done well..

            ..he took over large dairy holdings..

            ..and has converted them into growing real food..

            ..maybe federated farmers need to taken on a tour of his places..

            ..so they can see what needs to be done..

            ..just think..!..no more early starts/twice a day milking..

            ..nature does the work for you..

            • minarch

              nothing quite like a bit of monkeywrenching !

              • this place is the monkeywrench of ideas…

                ..(and i wd submit the most important one in nz..)

                ..where you can shake peoples’ ideas/(false)-certainties..

                ..change minds..and all else follows..

                ..other people/writings changed my mind..

                ..i used to be a vegetarian..who thought vegans..

                .. were ‘a bit weird’..

                ..i mean..how cd u live without cheese..?

                …was my false-certainty of that time..


          • bad12

            Lolz you cultivate males minarch???…

            • minarch

              I certainly do, im an (amateur) breeder

              you realise that seeds are worth about 100x more by volume than the flowers dont you ?

              • bad12

                In that particular field minarch i have found that for many a long year the seeds have been of no particular value,

                With each rotation increasing the ‘strength’ of the plant and any number of rotations being possible when involved with a collective of growers coupled with the ability to not only clone but also graft two strains together seeds just seems a slow way of doing things,

                Am always open to alternative ways of doing things tho, so feel free to share…

                • minarch

                  To understand the principles behind the breeding of cannabis you first need to be familiar with some basic terms related to genetics.

                  “Genotype” is the genetic and chromosomal make-up of any given individual – it is the genetic code.

                  “Phenotype” is the expression of body type, structure, and appearance of individuals; it results from the interaction between genotype and environment.

                  Specific environmental conditions are often required for certain phenotypic expressions from a given genotype. If the available nutrients, hours of sunlight, or other conditions are not available then the development of the plant or animal will be altered. These conditions are referred to as “environmental triggers.”

                  Two individuals with the same genotype can have greatly different phenotypes if grown in different environments.

                  where do you think those genetics you use came from ?

                  Im more interested more in the long term preservation/improvement of the species than my own harvest weights, I use the “Burbank technique”


                  And the potency/vigor of a strain doesnt alter at all through cloning/propagation, Potency is genetically predetermined , if your conditions are good you will get close to the possible potency, but never increase it past what the plants genes already contain.

                  in fact the vigor can reduce substantially if the parental stock is infected with any sort of disease as this will be passed on to any “offspring”

                  Im confused as to why you would even bother to graft cannabis to more cannabis ?

        • Naki man

          Draco you sound like an Aucklander that has never lived in a rural community. CV’s post is on the money.

          • Draco T Bastard

            I’ve lived in them but the point of my comment was that people are being paid minimum wage or less by the farmers which means that they’re not getting a hell of a lot of the money that the farms bring in. Most of it’s probably going to the banks in interest.

      • Ad 7.1.3

        Somehow we’re still waiting for Labour’s regional economic development strategy.

      • phillip ure 7.1.4

        more of yr helpless flappng of arms..eh cv..?

    • One Anonymous Bloke 7.2

      I wonder how much National will charge Oravida for a cosy little chat with him over dinner.

    • Once was Pete 7.3

      That’s like saying Labour is too closely entwined with TVNZ because some individual staff members have thrown their hats in the ring to be Labour candidates. Both assertions are just stupid!

  8. Pasupial 8

    Labour’s comment on the Green Party’s proposed Carbon Tax/ Cut:

    Labour opposes the Green Party’s new carbon tax policy, saying the Emissions Trading Scheme (ETS) was its preferred option.
    Labour leader David Cunliffe said today his party would negotiate with the Greens on the policy, but did not favour it…
    “Our position is in favour of an Emissions Trading Scheme, which is well managed – not one that’s been gutted by the current government policy.[“]


    Even with the advance speculation (including here on TS) that the Norman was to announce exactly a replacement of the ETS with a carbon tax, this is the best Cunliffe can come up with three days afterwards?

    I don’t watch Firstline (or much TV) myself; did Cunliffe make any indication of how Labour proposed ensuring that the Tories wouldn’t re-gut an amended ETS as soon as they got back into government? Also was there any mention of including agricultural emissions? Any details at all?

    Labour would also see New Zealand back in post-Kyoto international negotiations on global warming.

    Well, at least that’s something. Not an integrated scheme leading to carbon neutrality by 2050, but something.

    • Colonial Viper 8.1

      It’s all very reminiscent of whether one should order the lobster or the venison as the Titanic goes down. None of these options ETS or carbon tax is going to make more than one whit of difference in NZ’s GHG output.

      • Pasupial 8.1.1


        I’d prefer to make a single whit of difference, than be a half-wit who does nothing because they can’t get everything they want.

        Is it too late to prevent more than 2 degrees of global warming? Probably yes. Does that mean we shouldn’t do what we can, as soon as we can? Fuck no!

        • Colonial Viper

          Very nice

          Although…if a debate between an ETS and a carbon tax is a prime examplar of “doing what we can, as soon as we can” I am still not enthused!

          • phillip ure

            and i guess viper..as a carnivore…

            ..you might face up to that one day..eh..?

            ..something you..(and everyone else) can do..as individuals..to make a difference..

            ..’cos the fact is..if we all stopped eating fucken animals..

            ..and shed our crewcut-lawns obsession..

            ..we cd all drive s.u.v.’s…

            ..that is how much difference those two individual actions that you..(and everyone else) can do..will make..

            ..instead of pointing at politicians..and whining for them ‘to do something’..

            ..how about you..(and everyone else..) fucken ‘do something’…eh..?

            ..y’know..!..whining about ‘the inevitable’..

            ..and just pausing to wipe the pig-fat from yr lips…?

            ..and going ‘poor me..!..there is nothing i can do..!’..

            ..well..there fucken is something you..(and everyone else..)..can do..

            ..it fucks the planet..and gives ya cancer..

            ..just how much more of a twofer do you need..?

            ..to make that (not huge) change..

            • Colonial Viper

              Hey fuck head…

              There is only one God who passes judgement…

              And you ain’t it…

              • The Al1en

                “Hey fuck head…”

                So I’m guessing you don’t pass the old age new age test either 😆

                • Colonial Viper


                  If Ure wants to prattle on about “individual responsibility” as the way of the future then he should do it on a right wingers site.

                  • The Al1en

                    Or go a burger binge and get meat head rush 😆

                  • are you really that fucken ignorant/blind viper..?

                    ..i thought you went thru med-school..so can i presume you have a brain that works..?

                    ..so go on..!..instead of yr wanking fucken sneer..’lol’..

                    ..tell me how my thesis is incorrect..?

                    • no answer..eh c.v..?

                      ..and it’s been six hours..

                      ..and all you can seem to muster up is criticism of my delivery-style..?

                      ..and ‘nyah..!..nyah..!..i’m gonna eat some animals..!’..

                      ..that’s pretty much it..?



                  • Ad

                    Lobster it is then

                  • The Lone Haranguer

                    Problem is we want greater personal responsibility along with greater freedom of choice. That was always the flaw in the Roger Douglas masterplan.

                    Meanwhile Im going to go eat some ham. The invite by Phillip Ure for some pig fat on my lips sounded too good to resist.

                    Meanwhile he can expound the virtues of weed, and strange sentence structures.

                    Hey Phillip, did you go to high school in New Plymouth way back when?

                    • bad12

                      Lolz Phillips little diatribes do that to me as well, just reading down the thread of the current discussion has me craving a Bacon and Egg Burger…

                  • Ennui

                    CV are you not open to the possibility of setting an example and being your own leader? Doing something small in the hope that in doing so others will follow or do the same?

                    I too don’t need Phils Dominican approach, telling rather than persuading. Just doing it (the Franciscan ethic of leading by example) does not need to exclude the possibility of “individual responsibility”, that is something we all need to understand Left or Right. Failure to understand makes it possible for us to have Gulags etc.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Setting the example is fine but religious types like Philip Ure always think that it is their place to preach and to judge individuals.

            • The Al1en

              Your dog is a carnivore, mate, unless you feed him vege kibble, which would be at odds with it’s primeval instincts, which would be a bit sad of you putting your idealogical views above the health and well being of a no doubt loved pet.

              But a few questions you can choose to answer or divert from.

              Why are you so against omnivores doing what comes naturally?
              Why would you want to drive gas guzzlers like kdc instead of having a chicken mayo sandwich?
              Why can’t I mow my lawn?
              Why can’t you accept others right to munch down on meat and dairy, when they accept your right to be a sanctimonious, pontificating vegan bore?

              • @ allen..

                ..could you more have missed the point..?

                ..and yes..i have a 16 yr old dog..still in very good health..who lives on a vegan diet…

                ..and is lying in the sun on the porch.. on her porch foam-squab..

                ..(and should you desire to see other very healthy vegan-dogs..try googling ‘vegan dogs’..eh..?..)

                ..but like i said..

                ..yr other questions just demonstrate how much you missed the point..

                ..(and a language-comprehension heads-up 4 u..

                ..’cd’..when used in a metaphorical manner..

                ..does not mean ‘want’..)

              • factcheck:..compared to the crap commerical dog-rolls/biscuits most feed their dogs..

                ..my dogs have a diet of haute-cuisine..

                ..the older dogs’ favourite ‘snack’ is high-quality wholemeal bread..

                ..folded over into a sandwich of peanut butter and tvp (vegetable-protein..)

                ..she’ll do cartwheels for one of those..

                ..and in the mix they also have vegan dog-biscuits…

                ..biscuits that contain everything they need in the sense of vitamns etc..plus seaweed etc etc..

                ..and as for the 16 yr old one..aside from being a bit deaf..she is hale and hearty..

                ..and other dog owners we meet when walking in parks..are amazed at how she runs/frolics like a happy young adult dog…

                ..and all that is at least partly down to her healthy diet..i feel..

                • The Al1en

                  And far be it from me to criticise your dog’s tucker (unlike you yesterday with the ciggies for kids insinuation), but I’d wager your dog would wolf down a bowl of jelly meat and the marmite sandwich given half a chance.

                  I’m not googling seaweed eating pooches, but just for the record, my daughters cat would gulp down milk regardless of if it gave it the shi*s. Just saying 😉

                • Tracey

                  mydogs eat raw food. Tripe, turkey necks and the like. No processed or dry food. They also like raw veggies and fruit.

                • weka

                  Bet there are quite a few food miles in your shopping list phil. Food miles are one of the biggest parts of NZer’s ecological footprint. Someone who eats locally raised rabbits is doing far more for AGW mitigation than a vegan who relies on imported food.

                  That you think we can swap one set of behaviours (eg eating vege in stead of meat) means we can then increase pollution elsewhere (eat vege and drive an SUV) tells me you are part of the problem not part of the solution. I doubt you have a good grasp of the real contributing factors to AGW, which makes sense of why you thinkg being vegan is a solution.

                  • do the fucken math weka..

                    ..if you want to disprove what i say..do it..

                    ..an orifice-pluck on yr part comes nowhere near that..

                    ..and the difference in my environmental-footprint to yrs..

                    ..wd be like that jeremy newsboy ad..

                    ..and no..you ain’t the small pair of shoes..

                    • weka

                      straight to the abuse, that’s pretty quick even for you.

                      I have done the maths. Basically what you are claiming is that one size fits all, that all humans should be vegan and this would reduce their carbon footprint. I’m saying that’s not true, that it depends on where and how you eat, not what you eat. Like I said, someone sourcing meat locally has a smaller carbon footprint that someone importing grains from a long way away*. That’s without even getting into the difference between cropping and meat raising, but there again, it depends. Meat raised on pasture, within a sustainable land management practice has a completely different footpring than grain-fed meat like in the US. Likewise, monocropping soybeans via the Monsanto method is different than polycropping legumes and grains in a sustainable system.

                      tl;dr you don’t know what you are talking about, and the important bit is moving towards sustainable food production.

                      *it’s actually more complicated than that, because in NZ a big chunk of the food miles is transport within NZ, so living in Chch and buying food grown in Northland has a pretty big carbon footprint.

                    • yeah well..i also factor in the torture/killing of the animals..

                      ..’food-mile’ that away..!

                      ..and that s.u.v.-metaphor flew right over yr head..eh..?

                    • weka

                      probably all those dots. If you want to be understood try using the lingua franca.

                      AGW is going to be pretty tortuous for all beings. Eating animals doesn’t have to involve torture. Vegans are responsible for deaths. You are entitled to your diet but not your hypocrist.

                    • open yr eyes weka..

                      ..u claim to support animal rights..(what..?..the ‘right’ for you to eat them..?..)

                      ..you make this claim..and out of the other side of yr mouth..

                      ..say their/the lives of these animals you eat..

                      ..are not torture..?

                      ..been in a chicken concentration camp lately..?

                      ..a piggery..?

                      ..heard the screams of the calves taken from their mothers..?

                      ..so you can eat them..and get the milk meant for them..

                      ..from their mothers..(who keen at/after the separation..a chilling sound..once heard..not forgotten..)

                      ..and you claim to be a ‘green’..?..don’t you..?

                      ..that’s pretty twisted..eh..?

                      ..do you want cheese with that..?

                    • weka

                      But I don’t eat meat from those sources.

                    • yeah right..

                      ..the organic/they-had-such-a-good-life-they-should-almost-be-grateful-i-am-eating-them-argument..

                      ..like i haven’t heard that pile of steaming horse-shit before..?

                    • weka

                      oh I”m sure you’ve heard it before, you just don’t have a credible response to it.

                      I don’t eat factory chickens, so your trying to use that as an argument against me somehow is just fucking stupid.

            • McFlock

              I didn’t eat any meat last night.
              Did you spend the evening not being a judgemental fuck? I doubt it…

              • Ennui

                I was just running my fingers across my top teeth, the tooth three off centre on each side seems very pointy. Wonder why?

                • minarch

                  Humans aren’t physiologically designed to eat meat

                  Human beings and herbivorous animals have little mouths in relation to their head sizes, unlike carnivores, whose big mouths are all the better for seizing, killing and dismembering prey,
                  we also lack the appropriate natural talents to be a hunter, We are not quick, like cats, hawks or other predators in fact It was not until the advent of arrowheads, hatchets, and other implements that killing and capturing prey became possible at all

                  People and herbivores extensively chew their food, whereas swallowing food whole is the preferred method of carnivores and omnivores.

                  We have 4 incisors compared to only 2 canines – a clear indication to a vegetarian diet,unlike seen in other meat eating animals.

                  Our small intestine is very long,meant for a vegetarian diet like those seen in other vegetarian animals. In meat eating animals,their digestive tract is very small,& they do not eat meat every day,but vegetarians do need & eat food every day.

                  I do eat meat by the way, wish i didnt but there you go !

                  • weka

                    It’s just as easy to argue that humans are designed to eat meat AND veg. You seem to be equating meat eating with being a carnivore. Bugger all humans are carnivores.

                    Lots of animals in nature eat small prey btw.

                    “It was not until the advent of arrowheads, hatchets, and other implements that killing and capturing prey became possible at all”

                    I’d like a citation for that. Perhaps look at whether other apes are all completely vegetarian. I’m not talking about apes hunting wilderbeest, I’m talking about whether they eat only plants, or whether they eat plants and some animals. My understanding is it’s the latter.

                    • heard of google..?

                      ..instead of thinking out loud..?

                      ..and then ending with an orifice-pluck..?

                    • bad12

                      Weka, i don’t know about design as far as the humans eating meat goes, But, from my research there are a number of vitamins and minerals that humans require that can only be transported round the human body having been dissolved in fat,

                      There are some fruits and nuts that provide such fats but we would have to eat a hell of a lot of them to provide the fats that transport those necessary nutrients round our bodies,

                      Being hunter gatherers our ancestors would have had at times no access to such fat rich fruits and nuts as they roamed, hence animals,

                      The eating of animals would have given the hunter gatherers that feel good feeling by dint of the uptake of all the necessary vitamins and minerals from the vege/fruit/nut component of their diet,

                      An interesting thought i have had along these lines is the choice of hpow most of us eat our meals, a big meal for dinner usually containing a fair amount of vege,

                      In the morning tho the favorite would have to be bacon and eggs or cereal with milk,

                      i see a logical reason as to why we would develop such a diet, the dinner meal at night would then be followed by a prolonged sleep allowing full digestion, the breaking down of that dinnner into its component vitamins and minerals, sugars etc,

                      In the morning tho we have adopted oily bacon and eggs, i would suggest the reason for this is to ensure all those minerals which require ‘fats’ as the means of transport round our bodies that have been prepared by the evening meal and the prolonged sleep are taken up and used in the intended parts of the body…

                    • “Bugger all humans are carnivores” – are any? I’d imagine that a 100% meat diet would deprive the person of essential elements required for a healthy body.

                      Do insects count as meat?

                    • karol

                      Actually, bad, I think the spread of meals across the day have more to do with daily practicalities.

                      I was reading recently about the diet of some settlers in NZ back in the 19th century. They tended to have oat porridge for breakfast. Then loads of vegetables for the midday meal and probably some meat. Often fresh meat wasn’t available so they had salted meat. The evening meal was smaller – maybe flour porridge sometimes.

                      I think the evening meal developed more with industrial capitalism – just more practical if workers are away from home for the whole day. Europeans have often had their biggest meal midday. It’s actually not that great for the body to have a big meal at night.

                      Also, I think many in rural areas in past times would stoke up on a cooked breakfast because they were heading out for a day’s hard labour.

                    • i have two meals a day..

                      ..an uber/mega porridge..

                      ..groaning with fruit/additives..

                      ..and then an early evening meal..

                      ..that does me..

                    • I feast and famine. My body loves this. IMO a great way to eat – the 3 meals with big dinner – nah.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith

                      It’s my understanding that the modern part of the brain developed predominantly once our ancestors started regularly hunting, catching and eating meat. The increased protein intake effectively gave us a bigger more complex brain.

                      The sense of self is found in the modern part of the brain – partially why when mediating, praying etc you fell at one with nature.

                      The modern part of the brain shuts down.

                    • weka

                      Bad, I pretty much agree with that. The big experiment of the last 30 years of low fat is going to be pretty interesting when they start doing longitudinal studies on deficiencies of essential fat soluble nutrients.

                      I do think that there are some people who do well on vegetarian or vegan diets. Whether those people are healthier than their neighbours is going to depend on so many things I think such comparisons are fairly useless. People should eat what works for them if health is the primary concern, although I do support both animal and environmental rights.

                    • weka

                      “Do insects count as meat?”

                      I was counting them as an animal, so yeah.

                    • weka

                      “I feast and famine. My body loves this. IMO a great way to eat – the 3 meals with big dinner – nah.”

                      What does that look like marty? I’m intrigued.

                    • @ weka

                      I mix it up. so for 2 days a week (not necessarily consecutively) I won’t eat much – maybe 1 meal. Another 2 days eat medium amount – this might be 2 meals a day. Another 2 days, 3 meals. But my philosophy is to keep my body guessing – I’ll often pick on food all day rather than have a meal. I don’t eat meat or fish, a little lacto-ovo depending – but i have to say that i’m moving towards vegan every day. My wife, her mother and my 7 year old son (we all live in a 2 bedroom whare) all eat meat – organic, homekill. I do mainly hard physical work – digging holes, portering on the track – and some mentoring 🙂

                      I will do the odd 3 day fast and I still have plenty of bad habits but over the years I have found that the deliberate uncertainty of my eating works for my body. I do live in Golden Bay though and we have plenty of potlucks.

                      edit – the key is I’m not rigid – if I feel like eating I eat, if I don’t i don’t and the mix is continually mixed up.

                    • minarch


                      go try to catch and kill an animal with your bare hands/teeth….

                    • weka

                      Thanks marty, that’s really interesting. Can I ask, do you never eat meat or fish? Or do you ocassionally eg at potlucks?

                    • weka

                      “go try to catch and kill an animal with your bare hands/teeth….”

                      Insects. Slow animals like tortoises. Fish (I know people who can catch fish with their hands). Left over kill from predators. Ground birds.

                      Then there are eggs.

                      Killing animals with bare hands is common even today (just had a conversation today with someone who wrings their chooks necks). I think butchering animals is more of an issue than killing them.

                      Bear in mind that many cultures traditionally have eaten small amounts of animal protein. It’s not all about killing large animals.

                    • McFlock

                      Bonobos and most notably chimps eat meat.

                • @ ennui..

                  ..u filed them down during yr goth-phase..?

                  ..seemed a good idea @ the time..?

              • flock..i’m not being ‘judgmental’..that is yr fucken paranoia/guilt speaking..

                ..i am just passing on what i think is relevant information..

                ..the evidence can speak for itself..

                ..and like most..i am far too flawed as a human being to sit in ‘judgment’ on others..

                • Chooky

                  phillip ure ..you food faddist!….and drug connoiseur …i cant stand porridge …it is too boring…yuk.!..only horses like porridge

                  • u haven’t had my porridge..i pressure-cooker-lite steam it to cook/finish it..

                    ..it comes out like a pudding..

                    ..it’s a method i think is original..

                    ..and it makes a rolls royce of porridges..

                    ..u have probably been fed the vile sludge that is most commercial-porridges..

                    • here you are chooky..


                      ..the only further comment i wd add..is that a handful of chopped up dates work a treat..

                      ..as does a stick of cinnamon..

                      ..but of course..you can add/alter at will..

                      ..it is the method of cooking it that counts..

                      ..and remember..there is one commandment..

                      ..once it goes on the element..

                      ..you never ever stir it..

                      ..that is ‘never ever’…

                      .stirring destroys the delicate balance you can achieve..

                    • Chooky

                      obviously a porridge connoisseur….sigh

            • Chooky

              You would like James Cameron phillip…he is a Vegan!…and his whole family are Vegans……maybe he would be interested in putting some money behind your Vegan Sausage venture?

    • mickysavage 8.2

      The policy making process for Labour is somewhat complex and requires buy in not only by the caucus but by the policy council of the party. Cunliffe does not have the ability to change policy on the hoof …

      • Pasupial 8.2.1


        So, if that’s the case; that Cunliffe really couldn’t have come out with anything new. Why the hell did it take him since Sunday afternoon to comment on the Green policy? This announcement does nothing to dispel Labour’s image of being; too slow to speak up, and behind the times when they do, that has been congealing since Goff took over.

        • Colonial Viper

          One of Cunliffe’s great strengths is his ability to come up with off the cuff snappy, informative and meaningful response to any policy question or issue challenge. A response which cleverly distinguishes the Labour position. The immediacy and usually spot on but ad libbed nature of his responses also conveys his intelligence, thoughtfulness, and deep sincerity to the public.

          However – the more he has to parse his words and get each one vetted before their utterance, the more he looks and sounds like he either doesn’t know the material or he doesn’t want to show his honest reactions. Both are bad and degrade voters’ trust.

          We’re not getting enough of the former, and too much of the latter, and 3+ months out from an election is not a great time for that.

          • Crashcart

            Especially when other Labour MP’s feel free to come out and say whatever they want whenever they want. It really starts to make DC look a lame duck.

            • Enough is Enough

              He does need to get greater control over coms and his MP’s.

      • Skinny 8.2.2

        I will add to that Mickey. For good reason Cunliffe or any other Labour MP can not change policy on the hoof. In one dirty word that sums up why- Rodger Douglas.

      • Enough is Enough 8.2.3

        Unlike National where policy is written at the “Cabinet Club” over a couple of Brandy’s with a multi-million dollar brown paper bag changing hands.

        Policy for sale.

      • Draco T Bastard 8.2.4

        The policy making process for Labour is somewhat complex and requires buy in not only by the caucus but by the policy council of the party.

        You know, if they used Loomio they could get policy buy in from the whole party far faster than what it seems to take their “policy council of the party”. Of course, that would require the party to become democratic and I’m sure that there’s a few in the hierarchy of the party that would hate that.

    • Murray Olsen 8.3

      ETS is a 100% market mechanism which allows for speculation and corruption of any exchange. I am not at all surprised that Labour favours it over a carbon tax, which is about 50% market, in that won’t allow speculators to make a fast buck, but still relies on financial mechanisms. I think it’s a reasonable step, as long as it’s not seen as a universal panacea. It’s one part of a huge program that needs to be put in place.

  9. Lanthanide 9

    Labour to can coat-tailing within first 100 days of new government:

    One wonders how they will stitch together a confidence and supply policy, if necessary, with small parties that reject the provision?

    • Roflcopter 9.1

      They can commit to anything they like, and then discard it as part of coalition talks.

      The worse part is that they are willing to ram through electoral law changes without cross-party support or public consultation… the downside of no supreme law in this country.

      • Pasupial 9.1.1


        There was public consultation during the Electoral Commission review of MMP, that Collins rejected out of hand.

        [“] …we have a bill before Parliament – Iain Lees-Galloway’s member’s bill – which would remove it.
        “And I challenge the prime minister to sign up to that bill, do the right thing by New Zealand people and get rid of this coat-tailing provision.[“]

        La’s link above

        If Labour can get National to vote for any bill then it will pass, the smaller parties don’t have a chance to stop it. Key will be back home in the USA by then. I only hope they lower the electorate threshold to 4% (or preferably lower) at the same time.

        • Roflcopter

          My point is that electoral law should not be made/changed at the whim of the government of the day, doesn’t matter which side does it.

          And if change is required, it should be a requirement that it needs a minimum 75% in favour for it to be changed, although I’d prefer higher.

          There are certain laws/Acts that need a higher status than normal law, and Electoral Law and Bill Of Rights Act would be two of them.

          • Lanthanide

            It’s not the whim of the government of the day. There has been a long-drawn out process, which was curtailed at the very end. If any, it is the whim of the current government that nothing was implemented.
            I believe the 75% minimum is actually what is required. Labour + National meets this threshold easily.
            I believe that is already the case.

          • Pasupial


            I recall saying something similar in my submission to the Constitutional Review group last year. Also suggested using the empty room that used to be the Legislative Council for an elected Senate that would have to check over any legislation for conflicts with the BORA (and other entrenched acts) before it being sent off to be signed into law. It didn’t come to anything of course.

    • Colonial Viper 9.2

      If Labour do not drastically reduce the MMP threshold at the same time as canning coat tailing (and no, 4% is not low enough), it will actually become an anti-democratic, anti-proportional move.

      • ianmac 9.2.1

        Ideally it would be 1-2% just enough to keep real crackpots out. So cut the coat-tail and lower the threshold. Lets do it!

        • Colonial Viper

          I agree! NB 2.5% = a 3 MP caucus which I think makes sense.

          • Skinny

            I agree CV 2.5% is an ideal figure. It gives citizens who want to band together to become a political party an achievable goal to work to. I’m sure the current threshold of 5% has appeared to be a bridge too far. Of course the big 2 party’s want a closed shop to maintain their dominance.

            • bad12

              Agree with most of what you are saying here CV, but, why shouldn’t flakes and those we might term nutters have representation???,

              Who are we to judge, 2-2.5% is a better trade-off than what is being touted by those wishing to ”alter” our democratic process in favor of,in my opinion, the status quo, but for truly representative democracy it should be 1% one seat in the Parliament,

              Sure we would have some absolutely crazy flakes elected by the people, but, a truly representative democracy…

              • Lanthanide

                Because a house full of flakes doesn’t govern in the best interests of the country.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Although the last 30 years hardly brings one confidence, either.

                • bad12

                  So if a ‘flake’ or party of flakes can gain 1% of the vote you think that it is democratic to deny them that representation,

                  The ‘stuffed shirts’ making arbitrary decisions about 4% versus 5% as the ‘correct’ level as an acceptable level under the party voting system seems to be contained in your comment,

                  The Clayton’s democracy in other words…

        • Murray Olsen

          Crackpots got in with FPP. They just join one of the major parties. What else would you call Roger Douglas and his mates? I’d be happy with 1%.

          It also smells just a little when Labour proposes to cut the coat-tailing option as soon as it looks as if it might be used to gain a seat for a party on their left. They hadn’t made an issue of this recently when it looked as if it would be used to keep them in opposition. Are they really as dumb as a bag of rocks?

    • Ant 9.3

      Making it a first 100 days promise is dumb, going back on that will look bad.

      • Lanthanide 9.3.1

        The fact that it is bold is the point – Labour are saying that by making it a 100 days policy they will not be going back on it.

        I can’t recall NZFirst’s stance on the coat-tailing, but IIRC their position was to end coat-tailing and also keep the threshold at 5%, which seems a bit extreme.

        • Colonial Viper

          But being bold on the wrong thing is worse than doing nothing at all.

          Major issues of electoral law are usually handled via cross party consensus. It’s a dangerous precedent to take an electoral law issue with constitutional implications and say that you are going to ram it through regardless of what the rest of Parliament, even what your own support parties, says.

          What is to stop the Tories from doing similar next time.

          • Lanthanide

            If you’re saying there must be “cross-party consensus” then you are backing exactly what National did – said they didn’t get consensus so nothing is changing.

            • Colonial Viper

              Yes, National treated talks and the negotiation process as a joke and never took it seriously. They used it as just another element stalling for time and stonewalling.

              But that doesn’t mean that Labour should abandon a consensus seeking process altogether.

              Like I said it sets a bad precedent vis a vis electoral law, one which is potentially worse than National who did nothing and let the status quo stand (an act of omission), but they did not ram through changes irrespective of the rest of Parliament (an act of commission).

              • Crashcart

                Nor did Labour say they were going to ram it through. He said they will start the process within 100 days. In no way does this stop them attempting to achieve consensus. Something that is far more likely if National lose the election in part due to what is happening in TTT.

                you haev taken the exact same line as DPF without looking into what was actually said.

                • Colonial Viper

                  Thanks for those details

                  btw as I saw it “the first hundred days” usually refers to laws passed within that timeframe, not just some process initiated or report written.

                  • Crashcart

                    Which was a mistake by DC I agree. He didn’t need to do the first 100 days thing. He just needed to say that getting a consensus and implimenting this change would be a priority.

                    Of course getting rid of the coat tail rule is a bad move unless you significantly reduce the threshold and 4% is not low enough. I am pretty sure we agrree on that.

                    • Clemgeopin

                      [“Of course getting rid of the coat tail rule is a bad move unless you significantly reduce the threshold and 4% is not low enough. I am pretty sure we agree on that”]

                      I am not sure why you say that. After all, an electorate win simply means that the voters in THAT electorate like a particular CANDIDATE to represent them in THAT electorate. From that it DOES NOT follow that that person’s PARTY ALSO has support around the country. I think they are two independent events. For ‘threshold’, the party vote is crucial, not the electorate vote or win.

                    • Crashcart

                      It means that parties that have a significant amount of the vote (between 2% and 4% is a large number of votes) would have no way to be represented and we would essentially be back at FPP. Just think if NZ first were to get 4% and not get Tauranga and UF, Act and Conservatives were to all get about 3% among them that would be up to 7% of the electorate whose vote didn’t count. That is a considerable amont and conservative. It doesn’t even take into account Mana and the internet party.

                      I see no reason why if you get enough party vote to represent one seat you shouldn’t get one seat. But that is just me.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      High thresholds favour the major parties and disadvantage minor parties and new startups. That’s all we have to keep in mind when Labour or National talk about whether 4% or 5% is the right level.

              • Lanthanide

                I see your distinction as artificial.

                National had “an act of commission” by the very fact that they did not take the consultation process seriously.

                • Draco T Bastard

                  IMO, If National had got their preferred anti-democratic electoral system selected in the referendum they would have rammed it through within 6 months. They did nothing because people chose to keep MMP and modify it. Being of the cynical type I suspect that they did it to get people even more peeved with MMP so that the next time that they push to change electoral systems they get a better chance of changing it back to a less democratic system.

                  BTW, as the changes went through a referendum and is supported by a majority of the people is a parliamentary consensus really required?

                • Colonial Viper

                  it’s true that they wanted to stonewall and procrastinate from the very start; nevertheless its still fair to say that they respected the tradition of not making significant changes to electoral law without widespread cross-party support.

                  There would need to be a very good reason to break with that tradition as it would set up a risky constitutional precedent for the future.

                  • Lanthanide

                    Labour have the voting population on their side on this one.

                    If there were future mooted changes to the electoral system, based on a lengthy referendum, public consultation and commission report, then the opposition party whoever they were campaigned to put it into law and subsequently won the election, I don’t think I’d have a problem with that.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    nevertheless its still fair to say that they respected the tradition of not making significant changes to electoral law without widespread cross-party support.

                    Yep, it’s just so risky requiring a referendum before any electoral changes. It would put the power in the peoples hands rather than that of the suits in parliament.


        • Clemgeopin

          The proposals were released on 13 Aug 2012.

          The following news report at that time, gives an idea as to which parties supported or opposed what:

          List of proposed changes:

          The one electorate seat threshold for the allocation of list seats should be abolished.
          The party vote threshold for the allocation of list seats should be lowered to 4 per cent.
          Candidates should continue to be able to stand both in an electorate and on a party list at general elections.
          List MPs should continue to be able to contest by-elections.
          Political parties should continue to have responsibility for the composition and ranking of candidates on their party lists.
          The provision for overhang seats should be abolished for parties that do not cross the party vote threshold.
          That 76 electorate seats be identified as the point at which the risk of proportionality from insufficient list seats becomes unacceptable. New Zealand is unlikely to reach that point before 2026. Parliament should review this matter as the gradual erosion of list seats relative to electorate seats risks undermining the diversity and representation of Parliament.

          • Lanthanide


            NZFirst has an odd mix of views:
            * Retain the overhang provision
            * Keep threshold at 5%
            * Remove electorate coat-tailing

            • Colonial Viper

              You’re right not only does that combo not make sense, it doesnt make sense for NZF

          • alwyn

            “The provision for overhang seats should be abolished for parties that do not cross the party vote threshold”

            Can you, or someone else, please tell me what on earth this means?
            The only overhang seat in Parliament is held by the Maori Party. They won three electorates although their party vote would only have entitled them to get two seats.
            Does the statement mean that one of their electorate seats is not to be filled, and if so which one?
            Or does it mean that some other party, who would normally be entitled to a seat because of their party vote is deprived of a seat.
            eg. Would National, say, only get 58 seats instead of the 59 their party vote justified. That hardly seems democratic does it?
            Alternatively does it mean something else entirely?

            • Clemgeopin

              The detailed information on these page may be helpful to you:

            • Lanthanide

              I found it hard to understand as well.

              But what it means in practice, using the current parliament:
              The Maori Party won 3 electorate seats, but only enough party vote to elect 2 list positions. There are 120 seats in parliament, 70 electorates making up 50 list seats. Instead of capping the total number of seats at 120, what they do instead is create an additional list seat and allocate it using the normal algorithm, so there are a total of 70 electorate seats and 51 list seats, giving 121 seats in parliament.

              This particular suggested change means that they would no longer create additional list positions in such circumstances, instead capping the total number at 120.

              So your suggestion about National getting only 58 seats instead of 59 is one potential outcome of this change, depending on exactly how the algorithm worked out.

              • Lanthanide

                I should add, it’s also a follow-on from removing the coat-tailing rule.

                I don’t profess to really understand the exact maths of how it works, but the mmp review site linked to by Clem above says this:
                “A few submitters made the point that if the one electorate seat threshold is abolished, this might increase the likelihood of frequent and possibly larger overhangs. For example, a re-calculation of the 2008 General Election results without the one electorate seat threshold could have resulted in an eight seat overhang.”

                • alwyn

                  Thank you for the comments.
                  I think I must have a look at the 2008 results and see if I can follow them. It seems very strange on the face of it.
                  The reason I chose National as the one to lose a seat was that they got the final quotient, and final seat, in the allocation of seats in 2011.

    • SPC 9.4

      The Iain Lees-Galloway bill is party policy. It ends coat-tailing and has a new threshold of 4% as per the Electoral Commissions review.

      The only issue for Labour is how they both win this election and then apply this policy afterwards and keep a straight face while doing so.

      The best way is to call on National to agree with the Electoral Commissions review and also run on this policy at the election – so the two can together pass the bill after the election whomever wins the election (and with whatever coalition formed in whatever manner).

      • weka 9.4.1

        “The only issue for Labour is how they both win this election and then apply this policy afterwards and keep a straight face while doing so.”

        If Labour ends up going into coalition with parties that got MPs via coattailing, then Labour will be a laughing stock. What a bunch of numpties.

        • Lanthanide

          Labour will only go into coalition with The Greens. Any others will be offered Supply and Confidence agreements.

          The Greens agree with the electoral commission report, so no problem on that front.

          • weka

            Thanks Lanth. My point still stands – If Labour ends up forming a govt with parties that got MPs via coattailing supporting them on Confidence and Supply, then Labour will be a laughing stock. What a bunch of numpties. Actually that’s even worse. NACT and probably the MSM will give them shit for 3 years about the hypocricy of their governance.

          • SPC

            If Labour requires NZ First support and they will not give it for a Labour-Green coalition, what will happen?

            • Lanthanide

              So what is required is for the government to have more Yay’s than Nay’s when it comes to votes of “no confidence” as well as budgetary spending. They also of course need majority votes for any policy they actually want to pass.

              So a outcome is for NZ First to abstain on votes of no confidence / budgetary issues, and deal policy by policy with everything else Labour/Greens put up – that would effectively be a government that could not get much done and give NZ First a lot of power, although ultimately they have to respect public opinion and the government has the right to dissolve itself and seek a fresh election at any time. There is the potential that a government could not be formed and we could go back to the polls right away, at which point the minor party would very likely be strongly punished, so it’s in their interest to try and form some sort of stable government.

              Or NZ First could strike some deal with National and we end up with 3 more years of shit being sold off and the bottom 80% of the country going backwards.

              • Colonial Viper

                So in addition to electoral law reform, what other initiatives could Labour work with National on?…

              • alwyn

                I don’t think that a Government “has the right to dissolve itself and seek a fresh election at any time”. They would have to persuade the Governor General, who is the only one who can dissolve Parliament, that no one else could form a Government.

                If, for example NZF had been supporting Labour et al and then withdrew support from them and gave it to National you could get Nat and NZF holding a majority of the seats. The GG would certainly not accept that the Labour Government was entitled to dissolve Parliament and seek a new election. He would call on the National Party leader (probably rather than the NZF leader) to form a Government.

                • Lanthanide

                  I’m advised by my (political-wonk) BF that technically what I’ve outlined here is the more likely outcome.

                  A government can choose to dissolve itself and call new elections.

                  The alternative you suggest would require a vote of no confidence in the government to happen first, before an alternative government could be formed. But if this were to happen, without the public getting a chance at an election, would likely result in a push for constitutional reform to prevent such a re-occurrence in the future (barring exceptional circumstances that necessitated this outcome, of course).

    • Tracey 9.5

      kind of fpp by stealth.

      Mmp works for labouroncethey get their collective heads out of their arses and learn to share. No one is to hold their breath… Well hooton can.

    • Naki man 9.6

      “One wonders how they will stitch together a confidence and supply policy, if necessary, with small parties that reject the provision?”
      Good point. National could get rid of coat tailing before the election if they wanted too.

  10. North 10

    2011 was my 15th general election. After days and days of watching and listening I can’t not express thus –

    Under 1 vote FPP ’69 to ’93 – Labour x 9 – maximum possible.

    Under 2 vote MMP ’96 to ’11 – Labour x 11 – maximum possible less 1 – NZF x 1 – Labour vote save by name, cast tactically.

    Phil Goff’s pompous, talking-down Facebook effort – “(Me) and Kelvin Davis are the best…….excuse me while I pinch my nostrils……” and Kelvin Davis’s staggering, childlike stupidity – “I am the best……da da da da da…….!”, coupled with his “scam scam scam…….” sneers – ?

    It’s fired up the visceral “Get Fucked !” in me is what it’s done. 2014 MMP 2 votes – maybe one Labour electorate vote on the Northland general roll – meaningless anyway save as to salve a disappointed, conflicted soul.

    Why “Get Fucked !” ? Because in my book the closeness of their personae to the personae of the middle class and wannabe middle class snobs of yore, those who sneeringly pontificated that to vote Labour were near scandalous – that closeness……..it sickens me. The Goff’s and the Davis’s I don’t like or trust anymore. Up themselves. One at the end of and one at the start of ‘fabulous’ careers. It’s all about them. Where’s the promise of change in that ? Oh sorry…….missed the big plus here…….one Maori MP in the North (Davis, naturally) – ineffably preferable to two Maori MPs in the North.

    Subliminally the message I’m taking is this – “The wheels of ‘our’ machine need the oil of ‘their’ votes but after that fuck those hoha poverty people. Know nothing no class buggers them ! Meanwhile we and our ilk (political hue unimportant), we’ll prosper. Algud with that guys ?”

    Cunliffe ? Inexplicably can’t articulate why presently he doesn’t excite my disgust as above. If he’s not complicit I wish to Christ he’d exercise his authority.

    • bad12 10.1

      Yeah North, well said, for the first time in 2014 Labour will not be getting a vote from me in one way shape or form,

      That would have been unthinkable to the younger version of me that took that long solitary walk down the wing of Invercargill Borstal to cast a vote for Norm Kirks Labour Government so many years ago,

      Putting aside what i see is the ridiculous FPP attitude shown by Labour surrounding the electorates that are crucial in 2014, where for Labour to win is in effect to lose, they are now proposing less democracy in the form of canning the coat-tails with the sop of lowering the requirement to 4% of the Party Vote as ”principled”,

      Only a 2% thresh-hold in my opinion will be an acceptable trade-off, having said that tho, i would suggest the only ”principled” means of changing the electoral system is to put the question(s) to the voters during a general election…

      • phillip ure 10.1.1

        i’ll see yr ‘invercargill borstal’..

        ..and raise you with a ‘parry’..

        • bad12

          Really Phillip, what block and what year, have done the whole trip from Invercargill to Pare Max and most stops in between over the years with the ink stains that go with the pedigree…

          • phillip ure

            i only spent a month there..on assesment..70’s..

            ..(that was long enough..)

            ..i did an armed robbery on a chemist shop..

            ..while withdrawing from heroin…

            • bad12

              Oh really Phillip, and for a whole month you didn’t know what block you were in???, there were 2 Superintendents of Pare Max in the decade of the 70’s can you name either of them…

              • bad12

                So really Phillip, in reality alls you have accomplished,(again), is to ‘raise’ your little puppies leg for another squirt,

                ”You did an armed robbery on a chemist shop while withdrawing from heroin” more vacant lies Phillip, what appears to be more closer to the truth, if there is a shred of truth in your comment is that you either couldn’t afford a buy or supply had dried up so in desperation to feed your habit you took to a chemist shop,

                What were you armed with, a rubber dildo by any chance???…

                • you have taken my pedants’-award away from me..

                  ..and have you been prone to sudden mood-changes for most of yr life..?

                  • and isn’t that more than just a tad too self-reverential..?

                    ..given yr record..calling yrslf ‘bad’…?

                    ..like playing the tough-guy do ya…?

                    • this is just feedback to the person fixing/hunting the bugs..f.y.i..

                      ..multiple occaisons of being told i have no permission to edit comments..

                      ..from straight after initially posting..

                  • bad12

                    By replacing your pedants award i would suggest Phillip with one for you of ‘liar of the day’

                    My following questions of your ”raise you” comment might give you a salutary lesson in not waving your penis about attempting a show of being the ”big man”,

                    Comrades everywhere, some of whom will be undoubted readers of the Standard would demand that your claim of ”and raise you with a Parry” be tested for its veracity,

                    Not that i would expect you to have any knowledge of ”comrades” Phillip…

                    • if that’s parry ‘insider’ code..

                      ..no..i don’t..

                      ..my ‘bad’..eh..?

                      ..i only went to jail once..

                      ..and how long exactly do you have to stay in that place to get an idea of it..?

                      ..a month not long enough..?

                      ..i’d have thought an overniter/wknd wd be more than enough..

                    • bad12

                      Lolz Phillip, i got ”a sense of the place” when the screws cracked open my punishment cell door in Wellingtons Mt Crawford prison first hitting me with a mattress in an act of self preservation and secondly hitting me with ”the needle”,

                      My second ”sense of the place” was garnered when i come too being dragged handcuffed to 2 screws down the aisle of a fully loaded plane on the tarmac of Wellington airport,

                      The third,topping the hill at Albany at night and getting a look at the place for the first time lit up like an idea of a spaceship parked in solitary splendor awaiting my whisking off to another planet,

                      And so it was, ”run” by those who gleefully partook in the trashing and burning of Mt Eden Prison many years befor the younger version of me,(at the time the 2nd youngest person incarcerated there),did the only sensible thing and took the ‘vows of silence’ opting to learn whatever lessons were on offer behind the double fencing,

                      ‘Pare Comrades’ Phillip i will leave to your imagination…

                    • Huginn


                      Good times not forgotten

                      Free As A Bird ft. Arme, Louie Knuxx
                      from Absolute Epoch by Red Eye Society


                    • minarch

                      are they like the sisters ?

                      did you “fight the good fight” ?

              • ffs..yr knowledge of historical prison-minutiae is impressive..

                ..i travelled to a lot of countries after that..

                ..and did quite a bit of stuff..

                ..then went to university..yada fucken yada..

                ..so no..i don’t remember the superintendents’ names..

                ..and i know it wasn’t ‘d’ block..

                ..and y’know..you are breaching my boredom-thresholds faster and faster..

                ..you build a throwaway comment into a three act fucken drama..

                ..back on the shelf for you..

                ..see ya..

                • bad12

                  Convicted of armed robbery Phillip and traveled to a lot of countries would seem to be at odds with the supposed veracity of your original comment,

                  If you were a resident of ‘Pare Max’ at all Phillip, given the supposed time-frame you would have been in ”class”, short for classification and pronounced as in ass,(which is pretty much where i think your level of intelligence rests, ala asinine)…

                  • Once was Tim

                    Were you ever part of the Pare debating team @bad? You should have been given the skills you demonstrate on here (you and PU both).
                    If you were, I may very well have a 70’s photo of you – all spruced up on a trip into town (sponsored by Don McKinnon of all people – the gNats did have one or two OK people at one time in the distant past)

                    • bad12

                      Lolz Once was Tim,my skills at verbally carrying a moot at the time were virtually non-existent, although i was highly adept at making myself patently clear via other methods,

                      i have always possessed a certain amount of skill in written conversation possibly honed somewhat by the need to communicate from behind the walls of various institutions befor access to telephones became commonplace and in most of those was the port of call for those who could neither read nor write to both communicate the contents of incoming mail and answer the same on their behalf,

                      That in itself could be quite embarrassing for both parties and i would mask mine and put a bit of humanity into incoming letters by including a running commentary on the contents as i read them,(cheer bro better learn to make baby prezzies your sis just dropped a bundle etc),

                      So no, you wont have a pic of me in the debating team, although i am informed there is one of me in the book celebrating 100 years of New Zealand Policing,(not that i have bothered to look),

                      You would lolz, be more likely to obtain a pic of me at the time all beaten up and headed for the pound,(just to elicit a pun from your words)…

              • Murray Olsen

                Phillip was the kp of D Block. I saw the film. The supers were Greg Newbold and that Huey Long guy.

                • bad12

                  Murray Olsen, nah Phillip assures me He was never a denizen of D Block, and king-pins never featured as a fixture in that particular jail in all the time i spent there, even the seemingly hardest,meanest, most publicly vilified of crims and thugs had their humanity exposed by that jail,

                  Your scoring low in the factual stakes tonight, but, take a point from the attempt at humor, Greg was in the jail at the same time as me but was a pretty quiet recovering junkie doing what his middle class upbringing wanted of him in the first place,(uni degree),

                  And Huey Long???,

                  Jack Hobson, who in another life would have been a crim, and Syd Ward were the two Supers of Pare Max during the 70’s…

                  • Murray Olsen

                    Jeez, I was trying really hard to get them right 🙁

                    Huey Long was a corrupt American politician, a democrat I think. Newbold named his stupid book after the guy.

            • Huginn

              phillip ure

              free as a pelican
              I’ll neva’ do jail again

              Free As A Bird ft. Arme, Louie Knuxx
              from Absolute Epoch by Red Eye Society


              • that’s cool..

                ..u shd click on that link..people…

                • North

                  Hey…….(note I say this very ‘nicely darlings’)…….Bad and PU…….PU and Bad – would absolutely love to be taking minutes as Guest 3 at a sit down korero with Guests 1 & 2 being you two. Starbucks Mission Bay a sympathetic venue you think ? Little Old Pussy Me clad in body armour of course…….just in case.

                  Tamaki electorate would never be the same. Even counting the dark days of an asphalt baking Auckland summer with all those fine Maori and Pasifika residents of GI, innocently, unabashedly crowded round the fountain. Touch rugby, exuberance, laughter. I suspect the noise of you two in full flight would drown out even the dead clunking of the savagely clutched pearls of many fucked old freeholders cautiously peering out from million dollar plus tinted windows.

                  Very ‘nicely darlings’, as I say. ‘Onya both. The two of you add something to TS in my view. Gutsy disrespect for the simpering, handwringing Establishment is great ! Where the fuck is Morrissey ? I miss him……

    • idlegus 10.2

      utterly i agree. but as long as cunliffe is leader they will get my electorate vote.

    • Olwyn 10.3

      I agree with both you North and Idlegus below. As I have said before, the problem is that in many cases the centre left is seen less as a vehicle for holding the establishment to account, and more as a vehicle for securing one’s place in it. Kim Beazely’s dad said, “Labor used to be the cream of the working class and now it’s the dregs of the middle class.” While I would not go quite that far, I can see why he said it.

      Moreover, the neo-liberal tale has moved from “a rising tide lifts all boats,” to “…unskilled people are not equipped for the global economy, and so they are left behind, and there’s not much anyone can do about it.” By this account “unskilled” tends to mean “not middle class” and “not well equipped for shmoozing your way into patronage.” Some in Labour, I think, prefer the task of allowing more patronage to reach minorities over the task of establishing a basic level of security for all. The former does not put pressure on their own foothold, while the latter just may.

      However, like you guys, I see a decency and depth in Cunliffe that secures my support for him as LP leader. But I also wish he would pull some of his foot-soldiers into line.

      • anker 10.3.1

        @Olywn 1000+ re David Cunliffe.

        He is criticized by msm, and the likes of Trotter. But I think he is doing a great (not perfect) job.

        • Colonial Viper

          I have a lot of faith in DC, but too much of the Labour apparatus around him is not fit for purpose.

      • North 10.3.2

        Olwyn @ 10.3 – “a rising tide lifts all boats” – Susan Wood Be If She Could Be tried that one on trusty Laila on Q+A on Sunday…….a dangerous piece of shit to which one subscribes at one’s peril……as you point out……and as Susie Girl Oldish Yuppie now knows.

        Thank You Laila !

  11. JK 11

    TV3 News last night put out a warning to people to check their anti-virus security . Here’s the link :


  12. I’m ropeable this morning. I’ve been informed, and confirmed it, that my full name is being used by my ex boss, without prior knowledge or agreement on his contact page for his company website, listing my qualification and horticultural expertise as a selling point for his business.
    Worse than than, he also has up the name of the young woman he indecently assaulted. What a damn liberty.


    Plus it’s recent, as it also lists a new member of staff who wasn’t employed when I was there, so I conclude a deliberate act. Outrageous.

    • ianmac 12.1

      The Allen. Your ex-boss sounds rotten and in due course his dishonesty will down him. He will be cutting other corners as well.
      I know such injustices can eat away but don’t let it do it to you or else your ex-box will score again. Good luck.

      • The Al1en 12.1.1

        Thanks ianmac. In the hands of my lawyer, again. Totally rotten, unethical and very unsavoury, and yes, his sins will find him out. Just a matter of time.

        If I wasn’t still bound by confidentiality, I’d out myself and everyone could google my name and see the first hit for themselves, but I won’t… Yet.

        Looking forward to organising an anti perve rally outside his business in the near future. Watch this space. 😉

        • nadis

          What kind of CI binds you to not mentioning your name in public or that you worked for a particular employer? Does your CV now have a big [REDACTED] on it? Or is “horticultural work” really a cover story for your real job for the NSA? I suppose you could call that gardening?

          I have never seen a CI that would restrict you from mentioning your job history, and if you have one that really is that onerous then more fool you for signing it. Send him a letter asking to immediately remove your name, and if he doesn’t you will take legal action which will be at his cost. Your lawyer should be able to sort out in 10 minutes.

          Mind you I would advise you not to out yourself now as your scumbag ex-employer would have a libel case for the assault comment.

          Good luck.

          • The Al1en

            I haven’t signed any agreement, but on my termination letter it states at the very bottom of the page, a reminder I am still bound by confidentiality.
            I assume (rightly or wrongly) while the matter is ongoing and until resolved at a full employment hearing, that clause stays in place.

            I’m not changing my CV to avoid mentioning the 2 1/2 years good service, if he gives me a shoddy reference, so be it. I decided a while ago that my actions are something to be proud of, not hidden away.
            And no, horticulture is not a euphemism, the very thought. 😆

            I won’t out myself until the case is done and dusted, but then it’s game on in the court of public opinion.

    • Colonial Viper 12.2

      Both you and the woman should send him a sizeable invoice for the use of your name and your professional experience in his advertising material.

      And say that if he doesn’t want the invoice enforced, he has 5 working days to change his website.

      • The Al1en 12.2.1

        When I was on the floor, with him stood over me, I should have just taken the clear shot and kicked him in the nuts when I had the chance.
        Damn my mother for raising me so well. 😆

    • Tracey 12.3

      is your bosss business part of an association. Eg master builders, roofing association

      Email comcom and complain on the basis of breaching the fta, misleading and deceptive conduct.

      • The Al1en 12.3.1

        No, he’s an independent, but good advice.

        • The Al1en

          Actually looks like he’s breached the fta, especially this point.

          “In most cases it is not relevant whether a business intends to deceive or mislead, the issue is whether its conduct is liable or likely to deceive or mislead.”

          Thanks Tracey.

          • Tracey

            i have spent some time around the fta.

            If he is showing people no longer working as working there to suggest expertise etc he is breaching tge act. Email them at comcom, they will respond.

            • The Al1en

              I’ve mailed my guy, so best leave it to him as to when to move, but I have a screen shot of the page as proof.

              So far, apart from the employment stuff and unfair dismissal, there’s the assault on me and six cases of indecent assault for the police to look at, five counts of breaching my privacy to lodge with the privacy commissioner, at least one to report to comcom over the fta and the department of labour looking into his lack of record keeping and falsifying time/wage data.

              That’s quite a list.

              • Tracey

                holy crap.

                • The Al1en

                  I just have to wait for the next round of mediation and ultimately the hearing before I can properly get going.
                  More important than that is finding a job though, priorities and all.

                  • minarch

                    your much more patient than me

                    I would have given him a healthy dose of physical discipline on behalf of f**ked about workers everywhere and dealt with the consequences later

                    I suppose its a good thing there aren’t more people like me around 🙂

                    • The Al1en

                      I won’t say I haven’t considered it, but as the old saying about revenge goes ‘you might as well dig two graves’. Short term satisfaction, long term regret.

                      He wouldn’t take it like a man any way, he’d be wringing his hands with glee as I played into his game.
                      Never say never though 😆

        • Tracey

          my dispute is with a lawyer and i get threatened right left and centre. I have umed and ahed for a while but have filed papers for defamation in the district court.

          However i know this person will keep lying, and by now will have become convinced their lies are truth, making them seem credible.

          But, if i do nothing, this lawyer will continue to fuck over employees, past and present, and clients.

    • minarch 12.4

      protected agriculture ?

      • The Al1en 12.4.1

        No, a hort diploma and garden centre work, specialising in fruit and vegetables, though green fingered enough to propagate nearly anything.

        • minarch

          So a nurseryman ?

          any interest in protected agriculture ? Hydroponics ?

          Im working on a zero footprint/no electricity hydroponic cultivation system for use in areas with depleted/unsuitable/ not enough soil for traditional agriculture and major food security issues

          particularly pacific islands and atolls where salt water intrusion and over population is destroying agricultural capacity (Think Funafuti, Tuvalu or Tarawa , Kiribati or any number of aothers)

          its a social business model ( zero dividends paid , except for social dividends) where all profits are reinvested back into the host community via applications for community funding (sports/arts and education mostly with micro financing for small local businesses at a later date)

          • The Al1en

            I have brainstormed a bit with hydroponics, and the best way forward I could see is plastic houses, with pumps powered by wind/solar.
            In a small scale operation, even a small solar powered fish pond pump would crank up enough head to wash through a hydro set up.

            • phillip ure

              u cd become a travelling-consultant..

              ..after legalisation..

              ..that’d be a good little earner..

              • minarch

                with gunja being possibly the most valuable crop in existence most “guerilla/wardrobe” growers can s**t all over so called “farmers” with the advanced level of horticultural knowledge/techniques they possess

                well the ones producing high grade product anyway, which here in NZ is VERY few in my experience

            • minarch

              the system im working on is “plant driven” Each individual plant dictates when it will be watered rather than watering everything at once, Its incredibly water efficient, and can use Desalinated seawater , great for atoll/island environments where water supply/quality is an issue

              • ..you should put yr knowledge/skills on paper..

                ..i wd be more than happy to publish as a guest-post @ whoar..

                ..you cd retain yr anonymity..

                ..i wd view it as doing an agit-prop service on my part..

                ..clear/precise/how-to instructions for the citizens..

                ..and re yr comment re local ‘quality’..with some exceptions i wd agree..

                ..funnily enough..after smoking shedloads of the stuff all over the world..

                ..the ‘highest’ pot i have ever smoked..

                ..was grown (outdoors) by a perfectionist in the blue mountains o/s sydney..

                ..he claimed the altitude helped…

                ..and the stuff was like what cocaine is meant to be like..

                ..but much longer lasting..

                ..it was like hopping into a high-speed elevator..

              • The Al1en

                Way more advanced than I’ve got with it Minarch, but without a doubt, it’s the way of the future for fresh, healthy food.
                I was going to go small scale in the back yard as a project, but had to can it because of my ‘troubles’. Definitely on my to do list when I get back on my feet.

                • minarch

                  go for it !

                  Its a really satisfying way of spending your time and MUCH less work and 4-5 x more productive than traditional soil based agriculture.

                  much easier on the back as there no “stoop labour” if you set everything up on benches

                  after 2 years of picking lettuce/strawberrys etc in the US I swore to never put myself through that again 🙂

                  • The Al1en

                    Amazing what you can achieve with a bit of guttering and hose. Get organic seeds and nutrients and away you go.
                    I hear you on the back pain and my prolapsed nerve and sciatica most definitely concur.

          • Tracey

            fascinating stuff

  13. millsy 13

    Phil Quin (a rogernome) in the NZH, complaining about how far to the left Labour is and that it needs to capture the “centre”. Im not going to put the link up, you are all perfectly capable of going to the NZH website and having a look yourself.

    Quite frankly, if the like of Jones, Shearer, Quin, Pagani, et al were around in 1935, 1938 or even 1972, we wouldnt have all the stuff like universal education, free health care, rural electricity, state housing or anything else that the First and Third Labour governments implemented.

    As I said before: It is not Labour who have had to move closer to National to get into power, it is National moving closer to Labour.

    Do we really want Labour to be just National-lite?

    • Tracey 13.1

      well said

    • Draco T Bastard 13.2

      Quite frankly, if the like of Jones, Shearer, Quin, Pagani, et al were around in 1935, 1938 or even 1972,

      If they were anywhere near Labour at those time we would still be, effectively, in 19th century Britain with all the poverty and deprivation that entailed. Hell, under their preferred system we’re heading back that way fast.

  14. Bearded Git 14

    Dairy prices turning to custard (pun intended) see here:


    Watch out for a further reduction in farmer price per kilo payout before the election.

    Labour should be able to exploit the “putting all eggs one in basket” argument in the campaign. More diversification please.

    Incidentally by closing Invermay National has lost Dunedin-even the ODT editorial said that National would lose votes to Labour who have promised to retain the research facilility in Dunedin if elected.

    • nadis 14.1

      Good for those that want a lower exchange rate. According to research by Deutsche Bank, commodity prices (in particular dairy, meat and wood which are 50% of exports) is the biggest explainer of NZD. A 20% fall in NZ commodity prices should result in a 10% fall in NZD.

      • Colonial Viper 14.1.1

        That assertion is of course false.

        The fact that our Reserve Bank interest rates are amongst the highest in the world is a far larger driver because investors can get more yield here than in most other developed financial markets. This can also be seen by the massive value of NZD speculated on world forex markets every day, many multiples of the currency actually needed for our import/export trade of ag and hort.

        • nadis

          Assuming offshore investors are happy to assume the FX risk, which they typically are until the point at which they aren’t. Just remember it is not a risk free trade for a foreign speculator to buy NZD.

          If a speculator buys NZD and investing NZD rates they are looking for a gain of about 2.2% per annum, all of which is at risk if the NZD falls by more than 2.2% in that time frame.

          • Colonial Viper

            These speculators only hold positions for hours or days at a time.

            • nadis

              Well in that case, why do your “speculators” cause an elevated exchange rate? How can “high NZ yields” be any kind of incentive for an intra-day or “couple of days” holding period investor? Over that time horizon yield differential is worth zero.

              If an investor buys now and sells in a few hours, net effect zero. Why would that artificially elevate the exchange rate?

              Markets 101: “For every buyer there must be a seller”

              You’re not displaying a lot of logical consitency here.

              • McFlock

                Speculator buys at $1.00.
                Sells at $1.01.

                Exporter needs to return profits back to NZ, but has to buy at $1.01 rather than $1.00.

                And that’s without bringing up the argument as to whether an increased frequency of transactions has any impact on the value of the currency.

                • Gosman

                  Equally you can have a situation where there is not enough liquidity in the market due to a lack of speculators and a large exporter has to return profits to NZ and can’t find enough sellers at the current market price which then drives up the NZ dollar in the short term as they have to pay over the odds for the currency.

                  • McFlock

                    Right. Like we’ve ever had a shortage of speculators. We’re only the tenth most traded currency in the world.

                    But in the half-arsed hypothetical you invented, we’d have to rely on importers wanting to by shit from overseas. Such a shame that would never happen…

                    As if you genuinely give a fuck, anyway.

                    • Gosman

                      Despite what you think speculators don’t just have negative impacts on markets. They do provide a useful service to people who need to use markets for more practical reasons. The more players in a market place the more efficient it is at clearing buys and sells. An illiquid market tends to be very inefficient.

                    • srylands

                      “The more players in a market place the more efficient it is at clearing buys and sells. An illiquid market tends to be very inefficient.”

                      Yes exactly. Speculators are excellent for efficient markets. Such markets help the poor. The poor should get down and give thanks every night for speculators, and the enormous largesse of the top 10%

                    • bad12

                      F off you piece of filth….

                    • Colonial Viper

                      The more players in a market place the more efficient it is at clearing buys and sells. An illiquid market tends to be very inefficient.

                      Oh for fucks sake you aren’t trying to argue a case for speculators using the well falsified HFT argument of “bringing more liquidity to the market” are you?

                      Especially when the NZD is already the 8th or 10th most traded currency on world financial markets, tell the speculators to fuck off, we don’t need their liquidity

                      In the 17th Century market speculation was a capital crime as it was clearly understood to damage the real work economy, and that’s the way it should have stayed.

                    • McFlock

                      Do you fuckers even read what you write?

                      We’re talking about the currency of a nation that relies on international trade for its economic well-being. An “illiquid” market would not be anywhere close to a problem even if all the speculators fucked off. So we’re left with the increased demand of speculation with no “efficiency” argument.

                      That is a net cost to the economy.

                • nadis

                  who bought at 1.01 and sold at 1.00?

                  and what about the other speculator who bought at 1.00 and sold at 0.95?

                  The level of the currency is dependent on the fundamental factors – interest rate differentials, terms of trade, relative inflation, relative real growth, current account deficit, ability to fund etc etc etc. And PPP is a terrible value indicator – if you can measure it effectively (which is hard) it can over or under shoot fair value for decades at a time, which may of course mean youre not measuring it properly.

                  The volatility in the currency depends more on the the number of traders, liquidity, market information etc etc

                  I struggle to think of any asset ever where speculators have been able to fundamentally and permanently change the level of an asset. Speculative frenzies always end in burnt fingers.

                  • North

                    My God the shitheads SSlands and GooseMan are out defecating struttingly tonight !

                    Some fascist must’ve offered the fetid pricks a bold font script and a few cents above call centre rate.

              • Draco T Bastard

                Mate of mine works in the finance sector and he’s told me of money transfers that will come in in the morning and go out again that night with a few extra hundred thousand on them. There’s no risk involved, it’s simply money for nothing for the foreign speculators.

                • bad12

                  Yep the speculators on average placing a 1% tax on every piece of foreign trade in or out of little old Noo Zild,

                  Its accomplished with a purpose tho this speculation, those importing or exporting are strong-armed by the constant speculation into buying hedging from the Banksters,

                  No need to point out who by far is the biggest player in this little three ringed circus is there???, the Mafia would be green with envy…

                • nadis

                  Really? I work in the finance sector – most of it for large investment banks – and I have never seen a risk free trade like that. Where have the “few extra hundred thousand” come from? Please describe it in even vague detail so we can understand and get a piece of it for ourselves.

                  Otherwise I’m calling deluded, illogical, self -serving bullshit.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Where have the “few extra hundred thousand” come from?

                    What, you really don’t understand how interest works?

                    • Gosman

                      So someone is willingly providing this interest because they need the capital. Where is the problem?

                • infused

                  And the risk is, the money will go out with quite a bit less on it.

                  • Draco T Bastard

                    Supposedly, yes, never happens though. The rules have been set up so that it’s not the people with money taking the risk – it’s the people actually doing the work.

                    • nadis

                      The way you described it made it sound a bit more exciting than interest. Though I’d still like to see how money in and out on the same day can earn interest. Especially seeing as inter bank settlement only occurs at one time in the day.

                      And anyone doing the trrade you suggest on a fully hedged basis would only get the same return as doing that trade in therir own currency. If the do it non-currency hedged their P&L could be anything depending on where the currency moves between their two transactions. So hardly a risk free trade.

                    • nadis

                      The way you described it made it sound a bit more exciting than interest. Though I’d still like to see how money in and out on the same day can earn interest. Especially seeing as inter bank settlement only occurs at one time in the day.

                      And anyo

        • DH

          “The fact that our Reserve Bank interest rates are amongst the highest in the world is a far larger driver because investors can get more yield here than in most other developed financial markets. ”

          It doesn’t have to be so. My thinking is this;

          Money can’t sit in the bank, it has to be lent out. When interest rates go up the demand for borrowed money goes down. It also increases the demand for bank deposits, as you say the higher rate attracts more investors.

          So…. the nett effect of a raise in interest rates is a decrease in borrowing and an increase in money to lend.

          The banking sector’s reaction to being flush with cash is to push money onto borrowers. We had that in the 2000s, banks were allowed to increase the demand for borrowed money with all sorts of tricks like no deposit loans on houses etc.

          The point there is that if bank lending & borrowing can be controlled a raise in interest rates won’t necessarily affect the $NZD. The OCR doesn’t rule the banking world, banks don’t have to raise lending & deposit rates when the OCR goes up.

          These graphs are enlightening.



          Traditionally floating mortgages are funded by 90day bills and fixed mortgages are funded by term deposits. What happened there is the banks funded fixed mortgages with 90day rates from overseas, note how the fixed rate to 2008 was lower than the floating rate. Our high $NZD did not attract overseas investors so much as it enticed the NZ banks to borrow from overseas because the overseas interest rates were lower.

          What’s probably needed is something like a transaction tax on overseas borrowing that matches any changes in the OCR.

          • DH

            Edit not working…

            “Our high $NZD did not attract overseas investors so much as it enticed the NZ banks to borrow from overseas because the overseas interest rates were lower.”

            Should read as our high interest rates did not attract investors so much…. duh!

          • nadis

            “So…. the nett effect of a raise in interest rates is a decrease in borrowing and an increase in money to lend.”

            More accurtely a decrease in the marginal propensity to borrow and an increase in the marginal propensity to lend, where the interest rate is the equilibrium price at which demand meets supply blah blah, bu the actual effect the central bank is trying to achieve is not higher rates, but lower aggregate demand in the economy, and higher rates are just the (crude) mechanism to adjust demand.

            It is unworkable in practice, but the thinking behind Labours Kiwisaver levy policy is imho pretty good. The RBNZ actually investigated something similar a few years ago when they took a look a th thee oncept of interest rate levies instead of an OCR rise, where the levy would go into a fund that would be used to subidise a negative levy when the economic cycle is at the other extreme. Its findable on their website – I can’t be bothered locating the link but it is worth a read and has the same rationale as the labour policy. The holy grail for a monetary policy tool is a tool that is narrow in its focus (targets only areas of excess in the economy), and easy to implement without unintended side effects.

            Unfortunately when the OCR rises, longer interest rates do have to go up. Essentially the OCR sets the 90 day bank bill rate which is the true reference rate for banks, the benchmark at which they fund themselves an d interact with their customers. Why is it related to the OCR – because the OCR is the ultimate source of liquidity for the banks – borrowing or lending to the RBNZ. Where do banks borrow or lend from/to the real economy? The 90 day bank bill rate whether you are taking a floating or 5 year fixed mortgage.. Everything is related. If you hold one of the moving parts artificially low (or high) it creates a risk free arbitrage opportunity (we all love those) where a economic participant can borrow at the artificially low rate and lend at the higher (or vice versa).

            See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interest_rate_swap for the mechanism which means everything is referenced back to the 90 day bill rate. IRS is the biggest notional market in the world, though the actual risk of that market is probably only 2 or 3% of the notional size. Again – remember for every transaction there is a buyer and a seller.

            • DH

              “The 90 day bank bill rate whether you are taking a floating or 5 year fixed mortgage.. Everything is related. ”

              You speak about 90day rates as if they’re a fixed constant. They’re not. There’s domestic 90day rates and there’s overseas 90day rates – two entirely separate creatures.

              The facts don’t fully support your argument. Look at the graphs I linked. The banks were lending at rates that could not be supported by the domestic 90day rate. In 2008 fixed mortgage rates were 9.5% and the 90day bill rate was 9%. It was impossible for banks to fund those mortgages with domestic 90day bills. Lending also far outstripped term deposits so they can’t have been funded by them either.

              The OCR system broke down because overseas interest rates do not change with NZ interest rates. So when the OCR went up too much the banks simply changed from borrowing NZ 90day bills to borrowing overseas 90day bills.

              The very arbitrage you mention occured because the banks were able to borrow low from overseas and lend high here.

              The main point I was making is that people keep saying our high interest rates attract overseas investors. The data actually shows it attracted overseas borrowing.

              • Huginn

                Here’s an interesting article by Brent Sheather in today’s Herald which explores the consequences of getting the ‘neutral interest rate’ too high.


                • DH

                  I like Sheather, talks a lot of sense and seems to have a pathological dislike of greedy fund managers.

              • nadis

                Domestic and overseas rates? Not in NZ there isnt – we dont have an offshore market. THe only time you have an onshore/offshore market is when you have some form of capital controls in place, like China, Malaysia etc.

                This mythical “low offshore rate” you speak of. Do you mean borrowing in USD or Yen or similar? Talk to some farmers and see how that worked out for them. If thats the case I think you have forgotten to factor in foreign exchange risk. Now I could bore you rigid for an hour by explaining the math and processes by which you can hedge foreign exchange risk. I can show you a deterministic form of the pricing arbitrage math or I can show you how to hedge stochastically. I can even derive for you 4 different option pricing models to hedge out one or both sides of your exchange risk, some open form, some closed form but suffice to say, if you borrow in USD at 0.5% and lend in NZD at 3% on an unhedged basis then yes you will make a 2.5% positive carry. But you are completely exposed to changes in the exchange rate which could wipe out that time sensitive gain. If you do the same transaction but on a hedged basis, then your cost of funds is no longer 0.5%, but is 3%. Unfortunately (for you) that is how covered interest rate arbitrage works and despite your protestations the math dont allow anthing different.

                I kind of did speak about floating (or 90 day) rates as a fxed constant but not in the way you think – more a definitional reason from my work. When you quote an interest rate swap you might do it as “pay floating, receive 5 yr fixed”. In that case I would be making qurterly payments to (say) a bank that are equal to the 90 day rate at each quarterly date. In return I would receive 6 monthly payments based on the 5yr rate as at the start of the transacion”. That how a bank would turn a 5 year fixed mortgage that they have just sold into floating or 90 day sensitive payments, which a long with the fact NZ had a very inverse yield curve (that means long rates lower than shorter rates in case you were wondering) back at the time you are fixating on.

                I’m quite happy for you to keep on trying to explain how financial markets work when you clearly have no clue, more than happy to put your 5 minutes of no clue up against my 20+ years of trading including 10 years as a swaps and FX trader.

          • Colonial Viper

            Money can’t sit in the bank, it has to be lent out. When interest rates go up the demand for borrowed money goes down. It also increases the demand for bank deposits, as you say the higher rate attracts more investors.

            Unfortunately, every single comment you make here is factually incorrect vis a vis the way the central and retail banking system works.

            • DH

              “Unfortunately, every single comment you make here is factually incorrect vis a vis the way the central and retail banking system works.”

              Mate there’s over $100 billion on term deposit with NZ banks. At existing rates the banks are paying out some $5billion in interest each year just on those. If you think they can sit on that cash and not lend it out then I suggest it’s you who needs to learn about the banking system.

              • Colonial Viper

                Firstly, no way are they paying out $5B in interest each year on $100B deposits. That’s a whacking gross over-estimate with term deposit rates sitting around 3.0% to 3.5%.

                Secondly NZ private sector debt is 2 or 3 times that $100B figure i.e. banks do not have to fund their lending from deposits (and never have).

                Thirdly – banks can find a lot of ways to use money, and lending it out at a marginally higher interest rate is just one of them.

                Having said that I understand that banks dislike deposits as they are a financial liability, and the Reserve Bank has had to work hard to get the banks to take in more deposits.

            • nadis

              Domestic and overseas rates? Not in NZ there isnt – we dont have an offshore market. THe only time you have an onshore/offshore market is when you have some form of capital controls in place, like China, Malaysia etc.

              This mythical “low offshore rate” you speak of. Do you mean borrowing in USD or Yen or similar? Talk to some farmers and see how that worked out for them. If thats the case I think you have forgotten to factor in foreign exchange risk. Now I could bore you rigid for an hour by explaining the math and processes by which you can hedge foreign exchange risk. I can show you a deterministic form of the pricing arbitrage math or I can show you how to hedge stochastically. I can even derive for you 4 different option pricing models to hedge out one or both sides of your exchange risk, some open form, some closed form but suffice to say, if you borrow in USD at 0.5% and lend in NZD at 3% on an unhedged basis then yes you will make a 2.5% positive carry. But you are completely exposed to changes in the exchange rate which could wipe out that time sensitive gain. If you do the same transaction but on a hedged basis, then your cost of funds is no longer 0.5%, but is 3%. Unfortunately (for you) that is how covered interest rate arbitrage works and despite your protestations the math dont allow anthing different.

              I kind of did speak about floating (or 90 day) rates as a fxed constant but not in the way you think – more a definitional reason from my work. When you quote an interest rate swap you might do it as “pay floating, receive 5 yr fixed”. In that case I would be making qurterly payments to (say) a bank that are equal to the 90 day rate at each quarterly date. In return I would receive 6 monthly payments based on the 5yr rate as at the start of the transacion”. That how a bank would turn a 5 year fixed mortgage that they have just sold into floating or 90 day sensitive payments, which a long with the fact NZ had a very inverse yield curve (that means long rates lower than shorter rates in case you were wondering) back at the time you are fixating on.

              I’m quite happy for you to keep on trying to explain how financial markets work when you clearly have no clue, more than happy to put your 5 minutes of no clue up against my 20+ years of trading including 10 years as a swaps and FX trader.

              • DH

                “This mythical “low offshore rate” you speak of. ”

                Not really sure where you’re going with this. Last time I looked the NZ banks had borrowed in the vicinity of $100 billion from overseas lenders.

                In 2012 roughly 40% of bank funding was from the wholesale money markets and about 60% of that was from overseas wholesale markets

                If the risk margin on the overseas transactions translated back into the domestic wholesale rate then the banks could not have lent at the rates they did. The RBNZ graphs say they must have borrowed money cheaper than the domestic 90day rate even after accounting for hedging.

                The Govt guarantee scheme also revealed that the banks didn’t fully hedge their overseas borrowing against domestic lending. If they had the guarantee would not have been required.

                We’re also getting off the track. The basis of my hypothesis was that high interest rates here led to more overseas borrowing and that the borrowing played a large role in pushing up the $NZD. The facts do indeed show that the banks borrowed huge sums offshore when our own interest rates were significantly higher then overseas rates. We could argue over why their borrowing increased but there can’t be any dispute it occured, nor can it be denied it affected the exchange rate.

                Thy bottom line is that every opinion about the $NZD is just that; an opinion. No-one has enough data on the buying & selling of the $NZD to know exactly what causes it to rise & fall. My own thinking is that forex trading is a necessary ingredient to smooth out the peaks & troughs that large transactions can cause, but doesn’t really affect the value of a currency much. I agree with what you say about buying & selling; someone has to hold currency for it to rise and I thought most forex dealers were margin traders .

                Btw please keep the personal comments out of it. This is just a debate & discussion. I know more than most on subjects I like to discuss, I do research things before I open my trap, but don’t claim or profess to know it all and neither do I hold strong or fixed views on subjects like this…. todays opinion can be made irrelevant by tomorrows happenings.

                • nadis

                  Cmon man – you’re not understanding what I’m saying.

                  Your RBNZ graphs don’t show what you are assuming. Your entire thesis is built on bad maths. There is no mythical cheaper rate overseas that the banks can borrow at. The rate a bank can borrow at in NZ is the same as the rate they can borrow at overseas once the FX risk has been hedged out. And from your earlier note, fixed rate deposits aren’t funded from term deposits. They are funded from bank bill funding plus an interest rate swap.

                  Where term deposits are useful is in reducing the risk adjusted capital requirements – less liquidity on a liability means the bank has to hold less capital, which means the can leverage up more.

                  The banks borrow offshore for one big reason (and lots of other ones too) but primarily because there is insufficient capital onshore to borrow. When the dreaded speculators come in To NZ the trade they are doing is buy NZD, invest on deposit or in a bond for a term and then sell NZD at the end. That is effectively a funding trade for NZ borrowers.

                  It is actually a lot cheaper for banks to borrow money in NZ as retail investors buy at spreads significantlly tighter than for equivalent borrowers in the US or Europe. Theirs just not enough money in NZ to fund the banks to the degree they need to. Also when you look at money borrowed by NZ banks dont assume all the money is used in NZ. There are often tax related reasons as to why a foreign bank would borrow in NZ and then lend to an offshore party out of NZ .

                  • DH

                    I understood what you said.

                    What you’re saying is the banks buy complex risk cover, I assume in the form of swaps, that make the cost of overseas borrowing the same as here. I’m yet to be convinced they do that. Historical events can suggest strongly that what banks say they do isn’t always what they do.

                    I’m not able to continue, been called out. We can carry on in a future thread, might not pick up exactly where we left off but I’m sure we can figure out another argument ;-).

                    Nice talking….

                    • Gosman

                      Banks generally prefer to raise capital from deposits rather then borrowing offshore as it is cheaper. That was certainly a problem affecting Kiwibank a few years back.

                    • KJT

                      Arithmetic and accounting does not seem to be the right wings strong point.

                      Not surprising, when we have a Government that thinks a surplus is when you simply smuggle a lot of expenses to the profit side of the ledger.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Banks generally prefer to raise capital from deposits rather then borrowing offshore as it is cheaper.

                      What bullshit, US repo rates are well under 0.5% p.a. thanks to Quantitative Easing. Banks would prefer to pay that for their financing than pay out 3% p.a. to term depositers, thank you very much.

                      There is a complex and very substantial international inter-bank lending system in place overseen by the BIS. And that is even before you consider central banks who constantly lend reserves to ordinary banks on demand.

    • idlegus 14.2

      a lot of jobs have gone in dunedin since national been in govt. the odt finally waking up to the fact that national isn’t any friend of dunedin.

    • @ bg..

      “..Why Milk Alternatives from Soy – Almond – Flax – and Hemp – Are Increasingly Common on Supermarket Shelves..”

      “..Over the past few decades –

      milk consumption has plummeted..”



      (almond milk is particularly delicious..)

  15. bad12 15

    Applause to the Wellington City Council with most of their 450 low waged workers now being paid the ”living wage”,

    The cost, $750,000 on the wage bill which is but a drop in the vast ocean when we consider that Wellington City council pays out annually $80 million in wages and salaries,

    The Service and Foodworkers Union which reps for a lot of the Council staff will now concentrate its efforts on getting those with City Council contracts, cleaners and the like, to also be paid that ”living wage”,

    The last word has to go to the workers who now report that they can afford to take a couple of days off,(its called a weekend fellahs),and still put food on the table as opposed to being bonded serfs forced to put in 50,60,or,70 hours a week just to make the budget add up,

    How dare they tho,put on such airs and graces, with expectations of not working til they drop/sarc…

    • Colonial Viper 15.1

      a nice win

      • bad12 15.1.1

        Yeah it was a good one CV, more needs doing to get those operating Wellington City Council contracts to pay that ”living wage” to all their workers too,

        The Council itself could go a long way to ”forcing” the issue by simply stating in contract documents that Wellington City will give preference to contractors who provably pay that ”living wage”,

        If nothing else comes from having a Green-ish Mayor and more Green Reps on the Wellington City Council than the paying of the ”living wage” the push and the votes to have them elected will have been well worth the effort,

        Hopefully all those workers who are now on the payroll of the ”living wage” don’t forget their fellow workers working for those contracted by the council and willingly lend whatever support they can to any push to get the workers of those contractors paid that ”living wage”,

        Share the love brothers and sisters, share the love…

        • Tracey

          did i hear yesterday the govt is opening up clening contracts for tender which leaves the living wage cleaning companies very vulnerable

        • srylands

          You are obviously not a rate payer. Also you don’t work. And you live in a State house. You should disqualify yourself from commenting on anything relating to houses, taxes, or work. Because you have no personal experience with any of them.

          • bad12

            And you are obviously not a human being SSLands so exiting stage left would be your most intelligent option…

          • Tracey

            if personal experience is criteria for comments you can only comment on matters relating to parking attendants at 125 The Terrace

            • Colonial Viper

              Shitlands isn’t from NZ and he has never lived here before.

          • Draco T Bastard

            You are obviously not a rate payer tight arse that doesn’t want to pay for the services that you receive.


            And that little extra could easily be achieved by not paying the council CEO quite as much. In fact, I think that no public servant should be paid more than $100k per year. It’d save us tens of millions of dollars.

            • bad12

              +1 Draco, redirect the income from the top to the middle while dragging the bottom tiers of income up to that middle, true equality…

    • Tracey 15.2

      do you remember when there was the cries and gnashing of teeth that

      Going nuclear free would collapse the economy
      Going to four weeks annual leave would collapse the economy
      Parental leave would collapse nz businesses
      Mondaisation will collapse nz businesses

      Now we have had/having

      Paying a living wage will collapse the economy

      • bad12 15.2.1

        How could any of us not Tracey, the process of change is always so slow that the small victories hardly seem victorious by the time implementation happens as a matter of course,

        The grind tho has to go on, news that the Wellington City Council is now paying all its workers the living wage might provoke a few more employers to get on board,(the local bakery down the road in Miramar is now paying its 1 labourer the ”living wage”, applause),

        Wouldn’t it be great if Wellington advertised itself as the ”City of the Living Wage”, it might drag a few of the overcrowded out of that cluster-f##k to the North of us…

        • Tracey


          The business commu ity rally around the msm and self interest with their farcical “research” arms and do their chicken little impersonations. Slylnds does it regularly

          • bad12

            Lolz SSLands is doing it above your comment, making the usual definitive statements full of lies,

            If that particular commenter was in any way to be considered a human being i would bother to answer all its points,as it doesn’t appear to carry any real humanity spitting at it seems the most reasonable option open to me…

      • minarch 15.2.2

        more like

        equality will collapse NZ privilege

  16. dimebag russell 16

    I had to turn off Radio New Zealand National this morning.
    The sly whining of fergusson and spineless is just too much.
    It is not to far fetched imagining they are constipated anal retentives and speaking represents giving and they dont want to give anything to anybody.
    The days are past when these people were given these jobs and all of a sudden rose to a position of some standing in the community.
    appointing hacks like them is a sign of the downward trend in the polity of new Zealand and the horrid little creeps extracting a living out of it.

    • Will@Welly 16.1

      Sometimes in those waking moments, as the radio clock stirs me from my slumber, I imagine it’s Geoff’s dulcet tones I am hearing, then reality sets in.
      So far the bill’s mountaining as every morning another radio clock ‘bits the dust’, shot to pieces by my treasured blunder-buss.
      They say don’t shoot the messenger, but in this case, fu!k the messenger!

      • Paul 16.1.1

        I’ve switched off Morning Report.
        I have better things to do than hear the news through Espiner’s sly filter.

        • phillip ure

          aye..it is ‘sly’..

          ..he affects that breathless/’i’ve got a secret!’-voice..

          ..it was annoying enough on tv..

          ..it is even worse on radio..

          ..and for all those hours..?

          ..five mornings a week..?


          ..i tried a couple of times..

          ..and only lasted about 5 mins..

          ..colin peacock did nine-to-noon last (holiday) mon..

          ..and he rocked..

  17. bad12 17

    Chris Trotter, a writer that as often as not has me exclaiming a large WTF, nails it in His Bowalley road piece today,(the link is over to the right),

    Trotter asks David Cunliffe a number of questions which have been perplexing me and possibly a lot more of the commenters here in recent weeks,

    Chris puts those questions in a far better context than my efforts could have managed and His analysis within those questions is well worth a read,

    How about it Mr Cunliffe, Labour a truly RED Government or simply a soft sell out to neo-liberal business as usual…

  18. fucken hell..!

    ..federated farmers climatechange spokesperson has come out as a climatechange denier..

    ..he says ‘he doesn’t know if its’ true’…(!)

    ..but ‘that if it is..farmers should produce more..and if it isn’t..farmers should produce more’..(!)

    ,..i hope the mainstream media don’t just let this slide by..

    ..and hang him out to dry…

    • Chooky 18.1

      well he would say that wouldn’t he

    • seriously..!..go to national radio website..and click on rural-report..

      ..it’s actually both gobsmacking..and funny..

      ..and at one stage..

      ..the reporter/interviewer even openly laughs in disbelief at this clown…

      ..times are getting tough for these ignorant denying fools (c.f. that idiot from act..)

      ..in a week when both america and china (finally!) man-up on the issue…

      ..and promise to do something..

      ..and if we don’t soon change..

      ..it is only a matter of time..

      ..before we will become international pariahs..

      ..for just sitting here..

      ..fucking over the planet..

      • Chooky 18.2.1

        the cows would not believe him….they know he is full of bullshit!

      • Bearded Git 18.2.2

        +1 phillip see my post below

      • minarch 18.2.3

        this is already becoming the case in Europe

        NZ isnt known for being clean and green in most of Europe anymore, those days are gone..

  19. Chooky 19

    From Bomber Bradbury ….advice to David Cunliffe on how to sock it to ’em…lol

    “The speech Cunliffe should make after Queens Birthday ABC social media revolt (warning: contains traces of satire)

    By Martyn Bradbury / June 3, 2014

    ……”I’m David Fucking Cunliffe, and I’ve put up with just about enough of this bullshit. I was elected the Leader, not you pasty faced milk bottles. Zip it Chippy, you’re lucky I’ve let you back in the tent at all, you’ve got Education only because you look like a 12 year old.

    Phil, is there some paper work floating around showing you might have also green lighted drone strikes you Yanky loving quisling? I don’t care what you think. Shut up. When I need you to dial Washington for me I’ll give you a call. By the way, I’m not signing the TPPA either so enough of the back chat.

    David Shearer, you’re the Labour Party’s answer to Fozzy Bear, and unlike you, I don’t kick people when they’re down, but pack your bags, you’ll be overseas for sometime chief.

    I’m David Fucking Cunliffe, I’m going to take John Key on while humming ‘Momma said knock you out”…


  20. Bearded Git 20

    Federated Farmers spokesman on Climate Change was just asked on Midday Report what FF’s position was on Climate Change. His answer:

    “It doesn’t have a view”

    Hilarious. To listen go to:


    • Lanthanide 20.1

      I heard that.

      The statement is ridiculous and easy to ridicule anyway. The answer is “increase productivity”. No, that is not the answer:
      1. If climate change is real: increase productivity with a focus on reducing total emissions
      2. If climate change is not real: increase productivity

      The two outcomes are not identical, so they need to have an opinion. If they can’t see that the two outcomes follow naturally from the premise and a willingness to do something about the problem, they’re incompetent / denialists and should not be doing the job they’re in.

  21. Tracey 21

    No squeals of lolly scramble? no yelling that national are being irresponsible just to get pasifika votes?

    ” New Zealand is giving Tonga $5 million to help it rebuild schools in the Ha’apai islands which were devastated by Cyclone Ian earlier this year.

    Prime Minister John Key made the announcement in Nuku’alofa today during his visit to Tonga.

    He had earlier announced the government would put $2m towards Tonga’s upgrading of its national sports stadium in time for the Pacific Games in five years.

    “Getting children back into a regular school is vital for their education, safety and emotional well-being,” Mr Key said.

    “Education is one of the priority areas for Tonga under the New Zealand aid programme and we are very pleased to be able to respond to the Tongan government’s request for assistance.”

    The first step in the stadium upgrade will be a New Zealand-funded feasibility study and design.

    Technical support will also be given to the Tongan government.

    Teufaiva Stadium in the capital is already used for rugby, athletics and other events.

    Tonga has yet to host the Pacific Games, formerly called the South Pacific Games, and has won hosting rights for the 16th games in 2019. “

    • ianmac 21.1

      Mr Key is also generously giving $1million (of your money) to the PM of Samoa. But isn’t he the one that Campbell Live pursued re the missing millions donated for tsunami relief? The money was unaccounted for and no answers forthcoming.

      • Tracey 21.1.1

        i dont know but nationals internal polling isnt great if key is prepared to go to pacific islands that arent hawaii

        • Will@Welly

          They’re trying to ‘buy’ the great South Auckland vote, by getting the folks in the islands to back them. They’ve already made inroads into the churches and other bastions of the moral conservative Pacific Island community.
          The thing that will work against them is the high incidence of youth unemployment in the Pacific Island community.

          • North

            This very night asked a long time Samoan mate staying for a few days what he thinks Samoan people think about Key over there in Samoa dispensing largesse – “No, everybody knows it’s National who’re stopping Samoans coming to New Zealand. The money’s a bribe to get Samoans in NZ to vote National. Everyone knows that.”

            Slimey little fuck that John Key what ? Sounds like Samoans got the prick’s number though. According to my mate the fia palagi (wannabe palagi) who’re into Key keep it very quiet. Understandable. Given the wonderful community bias of Samoa and Samoans. The antithesis of selfish greedies like Key and ilk.

  22. (this one touches on a few bases..(as it were..)

    “..The most feminist sex scenes of all time..”


  23. there is a funny explanation of how/why the greens are so scared of the pot-issue..

    ..i reckon they think that only left-wingers smoke pot..

    ..and they are frightened of scaring off those ‘blue-tories’ they are hoping to woo..

    ..and/but that assumption on their part that only leftwingers have ‘relaxed’ attitudes to/use pot..couldn’t be more wrong..

    ..and you cd also assume that a ‘blue-tory’ wd hardly be a hysterical-prohibitionist as well..


    ..i really can’t understand that silence from the greens on that issue..

    ..when america is galloping towards federal legalisation..

    ..and the most reactionary southern states have medical-marijuana laws..

    ..the green spokesman on this issue is as silent as an easter island statue..

    ..(that’s a hint as to who that spokesperson is…)

    ..’cos you wouldn’t know otherwise..

    ..as i have never ever seen/heard them even say ‘boo!’ on the subject..

    ..i think the bong got their tongue…

  24. Pasupial 24

    There is an excellent Guest Blog over on TDB which lists the dodgy donor deals of National to highlight Key hypocrisy in calling; Kim DotCom “a very wealthy guy trying to buy a political party”.

    See more at: http://thedailyblog.co.nz/2014/06/04/guest-blog-curwen-ares-rolinson-on-very-wealthy-men-buying-political-parties/#sthash.vHOPxI6G.dpuf

  25. Draco T Bastard 25

    Internet Party using Loomio. You can only contribute if you’re a member but everyone else can watch.

    • Colonial Viper 25.1

      Should the internet party support the hoax named climate change

      Well, that’s a promising start

      • karol 25.1.1

        Interesting. the guy who asked this question wrote:

        This whole hoax was started by a politician who lost the American presidential elections and since then politicians all over the world have jumped on the bandwagon ,to extract new taxes

        Hopefully others will correct is misunderstandings.

        Hmm… in the discussion thread on democracy in the party, Joseph Cook said:

        The selection by unelected delegates of the candidates is in breach of Section 71 of the Electoral Act.

        Section 71 of the Act says:

        Every political party that is for the time being registered under this Part shall ensure that provision is made for participation in the selection of candidates representing the party for election as members of Parliament by—

        (a)current financial members of the party who are or would be entitled to vote for those candidates at any election; or

        (b)delegates who have (whether directly or indirectly) in turn been elected or otherwise selected by current financial members of the party; or

        (c)a combination of the persons or classes of persons referred to in paragraphs (a) and (b).

        So, does that mean Laila Harre as candidate for the party, needs to be one of the candidates voted on by party members before she can actually stand for the party?

        • Colonial Viper

          Figuring out what the IP constitution says is the key here – if the IP constitution cannot be construed as being consistent with the legislation, then there would be a problem.

          • karol

            Presumably the National Party complies with the legislation. I have no idea how they select their candidates or their leader.

            Most IP members participating in the incubator are clearly sensible and voting to block the proposition that climate change is a hoax.

        • Tracey

          doesnt “a” suggest that a small group could select provided their party rules or constitution permitted them to select candidates? Otherwise how can the ACT board select unclecoysin instead of john boscawen who was wanted by the memvers?

        • Clemgeopin

          Part (b) says, by ‘current members’ of the party.
          May be KDC and Kumar were the ONLY two members who had enrolled as members when Harre was ‘selected’?!

        • Anne

          This whole hoax was started by a politician who lost the American presidential elections and since then politicians all over the world have jumped on the bandwagon ,to extract new taxes.

          What unmitigated tosh!

          Back in the late 1960s and 70s Global Warming (as it was universally referred to in those days) was a topic of conversation among meteorologists and climate scientists around the world. They were already inventing special electronic instruments for measuring the extent and severity of the changing conditions.

          The massive ignorance among so many of these climate deniers is deplorable.

          • Anne

            Ooops bad mistake. The original name back in the 60s/70s was the Greenhouse Gas Effect of course.

      • Draco T Bastard 25.1.2

        Well, that’s a promising start

        Yes, it is – considering that suggestion has been thoroughly blocked so far.

      • Murray Olsen 25.1.3

        There seem to be a few people with similar views in Mana. They usually manage to involve Agenda 21, the Illuminati, and chemtrails by the second sentence. Their antipathy to vaccinations might mean they won’t be around for long.

        • bad12

          Stupid comment demands a detailed reply, i just give it, stupid comment…

        • Colonial Viper

          Their antipathy to vaccinations might mean they won’t be around for long.

          The statistical survival strategy is to avoid all forms of medical intervention unless the benefits from a particular treatment are very likely to be overwhelmingly positive.

          So, stitiching back together a severed femoral artery = good, taking statins when your cholesterol is moderately elevated @ 70 years of age but you have no family history of heart trouble whatsoever = useless.

          • Murray Olsen

            I’d say the benefits from most childhood vaccines are overwhelmingly positive. In all the time I spend in hospitals these days, I haven’t seen one kid in an iron lung because of polio. When I was at primary school, they were still in use.

            • Colonial Viper

              Take the benefits on a vaccination by vaccination case. I have no problem with the idea that some vaccinations may prove very useful in some circumstances and timings.

              But to treat vaccinations as a homogenous category of drugs makes no more sense than treating antibiotics or analgesics as homogenous categories of drugs.

    • chrs 4 that draco..

      ..i am uber-pleased at the voting on the decriminalisation of cannabis issue..

      ..80% in support of ending prohibition..after 71% of party members have voiced their opinion..

      ..so that’ll be a goer..

      ..and will clock up a raft of votes for the internet/mana parties..

      ..manas’ policy is for medical marijuana..

      ..so no probs there..

  26. Tracey 26

    In 2006 gerry brownlee had these pecuniary interests

    ” ” Gerry BROWNLEE

    Companies and business entities: Contact Energy electricity generation

    Beneficial interests in trusts: Bradnor Trust

    Real property: Property, Takorika Road, Havelock, Marlborough; Bradnor Road, Fendalton, Christchurch

    Superannuation schemes: Axon Managed Funds

    Creditors: Bank of New Zealand mortgage”

    By 2014 he still has his malborough and bradnor property but has added

    ” 283 Greers Road, Bishopdale, Christchurch 870 m2 Commercial office suburban Dental centre

    1 and 2 /12 Lothian Street, Ilam, Christchurch Property overview

    Bedroom: 2 Building type: Residential-OYO-1960’s

    Bathroom: 1 Building age : 1960

    Land area: – Property ID (QPID): 1160918

    2/383 Ilam Road, Bryndwr, Christchurch Property overview

    Bedroom: 2 Building type: Residential-Dwelling-2000/2009

    Bathroom: 1 Building age : 2007

    Land area: – Property ID (QPID): 2572800″

    So, his interest in lowering property prices in christchurch and introducing capital gains tax would be??????????

  27. Tracey 27



    SFO boss warns of staff cuts Last updated 13:48 04/06/2014


    Serious Fraud Office director Julie Read is “right-sizing” the organisation as a three-year funding boost related to finance company collapses ends.

    The agency responsible for investigating large and complex fraud had a funding cut of more than $1.8 million in this year’s Budget.

    Police Minister Anne Tolley said today that funding had been boosted to cope with the large number of investigations stemming from the collapses, but was now being withdrawn.

    “Some of the work that Julie is doing is what is the right size for this very specialised group,” she told the parliamentary law and order select committee.

    “No-one’s saying that the risk has changed. In fact, the SFO has led some work that I passed on to the justice minister 18 months ago that shows the risks are reasonably high, particularly around a place like Christchurch.

    “But the actual workload of the SFO itself was ramped up because of the collapse of a large number of finance companies which is coming to an end, and so when you look at the investigations that are being started now, it has dropped back to reasonable levels.” Labour MP Jacinda Ardern said the SFO was projecting that the number of complaints would increase, but the capacity of the organisation to follow up the complaints was being cut.

    • srylands 27.1

      Well if My Little Pony is projecting it must be right.

      This would be the same SFO of course that the last Government actually introduced legislation to abolish. It was only saved by the outcome of the 2008 election.

      Like most public services I am sure the SFO is now more efficient and doing much more with less.

  28. bad12 28

    For the addicted ‘Backbenchers’ is on Prime at 10.30 tonight, Maori Television repeats ‘Native Affairs’ at the same time for those wanting to escape the ads…

    • Tracey 28.1

      at post 26 i found the addresses for gerrys properties i chchch.:

    • Clemgeopin 28.2

      Email alert :A friendly reminder from Prime to watch the following programme:

      Back Benches, Wednesday 10:30PM on PRIME

      With the election looming, Wallace and Damian question whether our MMP system works. Plus the MP panel debate if it’s time to re-evaluate our Emissions Trading Scheme. (PGR)

  29. felix 29

    So Banksie tomorrow, is it?

    • dimebag russell 29.1

      yep. so its off to bed with linda ronstadt and dolly partons version of the Hobos Meditation ringing in my ears.
      oh and some gene pitney but dont tell anybody.

    • Ben Adam 29.2

      He is probably getting pissed tonight and a tad nervous.
      Here is something to help him calm his nerves:

      And this:

  30. andrew little could bore for new zealand..

    ..and wallace chapman is a rightwing-trout..

    ..and that brownlee mini-me foster-bell is a total jerk..

    • update..andrew little on health..

      ..a total jerk…

      ..he basically said:..screw old people..we ain’t gonna help them..

      ..’we can’t have everything..we have to prioritise..

      ..and his answer to a question on the cost of doctors’ visits..

      ..spurs hm into a poor-me! after hours cost anecdote..

      ..what a fucken wanker..!

      • bad12 30.1.1

        i have the telly on Backbenchers but have tuned out of large parts of it tonight, if Little is intimating such Phillip they will carry on using the same methods of ”gate-keeping” that National have employed…

  31. North 31

    It happens with every single one of these media fuckwits ! ‘Backbenchers’ – Wallace Chapman – I accept it’s quick fire repartee blah blah blah but for Christ’s Sake Wallace Chapman…….calm down, stop yelling like a buffoon, stop pointing your idiot finger, stop imagining that you’re Devil’s Advocate Supreme. Shut your fucking mouth and let people speak for a minute.

    Your ‘elevation’ to Sunday Mornings, the vote of confidence from the occupants of The Power Suite at Radio NZ does not licence you as The Next Big Thing.

    That’s NZ media at virtually every bloody level sadly. Dorks. Especially when their Establishment blesses them. Can’t watch this shit. Hoha-making. Off to bed.

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