Open mike 04/08/2012

104 comments on “Open mike 04/08/2012”

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1. Jenny 1

   4 August 2012 at 6:59 am

   Kiwi journo Anita McNaught gets into premier Syrian city of Aleppo, investigates the summary executions on Tuesday cited by the shrill Assad supporter and extremist climate change apologist Colonial Viper

   Rebel fighters “consolidating hold” over Aleppo:

   Anita McNaught

   http://kiaoragaza.net/

   • Colonial Viper 1.1

     4 August 2012 at 8:01 am

     Many religious fundamentalist groups, including ultra-orthodox foreign Salafi fighters and Al-Qaida Iraq, seeking to oust Assad in Syria

     http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/world/2012/0727/1224320884188.html

     In addition to al-Qaeda, there are independent jihadi groups, like the al-Noor Brigades, and Muslim Brotherhood units linked with the rebel Free Syrian Army – all of which have the same methods and agenda. They also share the same sponsors – Qatar, Saudi Arabia, figures in the United Arab Emirates and fundamentalists elsewhere.

     The fundamentalists have been encouraged by the emergence from the underground through the Arab Spring of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood and its offshoots in North Africa, and of various Salafi groups in these countries.

     Of course, some naive people might still think that the conflict in Syria is “of the people, for the people, by the people”, but they must be stupid, in the face of the rapidly mounting evidence, to still believe so.

     • Jenny 1.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 9:21 pm

       Of course, some naive people might still think that the conflict in Syria is “of the people, for the people, by the people”, but they must be stupid, in the face of the rapidly mounting evidence, to still believe so.

       Colonial Viper

       Some of Colonial Viper’s “mounting evidence”.

       http://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/assads-storyline-a-war-led-and-fought-by-foreigners/

       …. “Syrians say the unrest is not only led by foreigners but is also being fought by foreigners.”

       Maya Naser Press TV

       Talk about “naive”. Who could possibly swallow this crap?

       Compare this to New Zealand’s own Anita McNaught, reporting on the reality of the Syrian regime, see above or below as revealed in captured files.

       http://kiaoragaza.wordpress.com/2012/08/04/secret-police-files-show-assad-regimes-culture-of-spying/

       In the ransacked and burnt-out remains of various security headquarters in al-Bab lie many clues to the means used by Bashar al-Assad’s government to stay in power, revealing why life under the regime had become increasingly intolerable for its citizens.

….

       …. the cupboards are still stuffed with manila files and brown envelopes containing years of records documenting government-condoned snooping.

Mostly handwritten, the files are the fruits of an East German style surveillance state.

       Anita McNaught Al Jazeera

       Who to believe, Colonial Viper, sitting safely at home in front of his keyboard stupidly parroting the propaganda of the Assad regime.

       Or respected journalist Anita McNaught putting her life at risk to seek the truth?

       • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 9:28 pm

         The Guardian UK: Al-Qaida Iraq bomb masters turn tide for rebels

         According to Abu Khuder, his men are working closely with the military council that commands the Free Syrian Army brigades in the region. “We meet almost every day,” he said. “We have clear instructions from our [al-Qaida] leadership that if the FSA need our help we should give it. We help them with IEDs and car bombs. Our main talent is in the bombing operations.” Abu Khuder’s men had a lot of experience in bomb-making from Iraq and elsewhere, he added.

         http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/30/al-qaida-rebels-battle-syria

         • Colonial Viper 1.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2012 at 9:49 pm

           Hey Jenny, check that Guardian article out. There’s a cute header photo of a Free Syrian Army fighter spray painting the slogan “There is no Islam without Jihad” on a wall.

           Warms the heart, eh.

           • Jenny 1.1.1.1.1.1

             5 August 2012 at 9:23 am

             Playing to the racist and Islamaphobic seats to justify your support for this monstrous regime, CV?

             The regime and it’s supporters like you, are doing your very best to stir up sectarian divisions to keep this bloody and monstrous dictatorship in power.

             • muzza …

               5 August 2012 at 9:50 am

               Jenny,

               Point of note, the Syrian situation is NOT like the PoAL, where it was basically Union v Contracting, it is far more complicated, and multi faceted than that relatively straight forward situation you commented on so regularly.

               Taking such a staunchly simplistic one-sided position is frankly juvenille, and is reaching the stage where your posts and thus your mind set seem to be now struggling against some personal crusade, which while being well indented is, through your words becoming disrespectful of the ever decending seriousness of the situaiton.

               Saying someone must be a supprter of the “monsterous dictatorship” because they understand that the situation is complicated, and not what it is presented as to the sheep who follow along, and offer evidence contrary to your personal belief, is limiting!

               Its appropriate to accept a situation is complicated, and thus beyond ones capabilities to get their head around. The first step is to realise that it is a mature approach to not back oneself into a corner!

               Edit: STOP accusing people of rac*sm incorrectly, continued accusations and use of the term totally disrespect those who suffer genuine rac*sm.

       • muzza 1.1.1.2

         5 August 2012 at 8:40 am

         As for the Mossad’s “low profile”, the spin in Tel Aviv is that Israel is able to “control” the swarm of hardcore Wahhabis and Salafi-jihadis now infesting Syria. Even if that is manifest nonsense, one juicy point is clear; Israel is in bed with al-Qaeda-style Islamists.

         Meet the triangle of death

         Tel Aviv’s agenda is clear; a weakened Syrian government, an overextended army in disarray, sectarian hatred all around and a relentless slouching towards balkanization. The ultimate goal; not only the Lebanonization, but the Somalization of Syria and environs.

         Turkey’s agenda remains incredibly murky – apart from the wishful thinking of post-Assad Syria becoming a mild, civilized version of the AKP reign in Ankara (it won’t happen).

         As reported by ATol for months now, North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) until a while ago was running a command and control center in Iskenderun, in Hathay province. Recently, it was finally leaked to Reuters the news of a joint Turkey-Qatar-Saudi Arabia “secret” base in Adana, 100 kilometers from the Syrian border. Adana happens to be the home of Incirlik, the immense NATO base. A local ATol source for weeks has been reporting of frantic cargo movements at Incirlik.

         It was Saudi Deputy Foreign Minister Abdulaziz bin Abdullah al-Saud who requested, in person, for the base to be set up, to Ankara’s delight

         Ankara-Riyadh-Doha; talk about a triangle of death. Yet the spin from Qatar is once again of the “leading from behind” variety. Turkey is doing the military heavy lifting; the CIA is “hands off”; and Qatar is just taking pictures like an innocent tourist (while directing operations via its military intelligence). The heavy-duty guys are all unspecified “middlemen”.

   • muzza 1.2

     4 August 2012 at 9:12 am

     Jenny,

     In an ideal world, the struggle of people against any/all forms of tyranny would have altruistic intervention, indeed in an ideal world, there would not be wars or struggle to intervene in!

     Thats not the world we have allowed to be created for us, and its not the world we will ever see, not as long as the species allows itself to be exterminated. With science and technology entrapping the planet further, while crisis after crisis of man made control grid is forced upon the worlds peoples, with the middle east simply one of the manufactured crises.

     Your intentions seem to be well meaning, but by having been so fooled into what you believe in happening in Syria, your well meaning is in fact a hugely negative energy force, because you are in fact supporting, what you deny is going on.

     Does this mean you should stop supporting the innocent caught up in these manufactured uprisings, absolutely not, but it does mean that you should cover all angles and at least factor in the evidence which states numerously that Syria, like Libya is being destroyed by NATO intervention, using mercenaries and other assorted sponsored criminals, all with the end game pre planned, and using the transparent overused “arab spring” lie, as cover.

     Oh and Anita worked of the BBC who have been outed with multiple lies and cover ups over many decades, so I would question Ms McNaughts ability of be , lets call it “independent”

     • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1

       4 August 2012 at 9:23 am

       “Oh and Anita worked of the BBC who have been outed with multiple lies and cover ups over many decades, so I would question Ms McNaughts ability of be , lets call it “independent””
        
       Jeez, that’s weak, Muzza. The BBC remains the worlds leading independent news source and I’ll bet you’ll be struggling to back up your daft comment about them. And if you’d bothered to look at Jenny’s link, you’d have spotted that McNaught, who appears to be about a million times braver than you or me, reports for Al Jazeera.

       • muzza 1.2.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 9:38 am

         The BBC lost credibility a very long time ago Voice, they have been caught out too many times. No need for me to link anything, go find it for yourslf…Start with Dr David Kelly, though as a tip!

         Al Jazeera, LOL again showing how little you know about this Qatari, sponsored Anglo Saxon, pseudo Arab puppet media outlet, where most of its “important employees” are from the UK, many worked for the BBC, just like Anita. Hey Qatar, got the FIFA world cup because they deserved it eh bro!

         Oh and refer only to your own cowardice when posting nonsense, do not speak on my behalf!

         • Te Reo Putake 1.2.1.1.1

           4 August 2012 at 9:47 am

           I didn’t make any comment about Al Jazeera, Muzza, just pointed out that you were being ignorantly insulting to a reporter who is actually risking her life to report the news, while you sit on the couch in your underpants.
            
           Nice to see you can’t back up your claims about the BBC, too.

           • RedLogix 1.2.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2012 at 10:04 am

             If I wanted to read this sort of divisive, insulting crap where no-one listens to anyone … I’d be at the sewer.

             Where they do it better.

             • Te Reo Putake …

               4 August 2012 at 10:38 am

               Yeah, fair call, RL. I’m off to footie, so no more smart arsery from me.

           • muzza 1.2.1.1.1.2

             4 August 2012 at 10:09 am

             You pointed out I was being ignorantly insulting did you….that really is ironic!

             Can’t see where you read that in my original post, I said “Anita worked OF the BBC”, a typo, I meant to say “worked FOR the BBC”, either way, use of the word WORKED indicated past tense didn’t it!

             I also don’t see where I questioned her aledged bravery, only her ability to be an “independent”, reporter, given the association to the BBC, and now to Al Jazeera, both of which I have given an opinion on, and if you want the links to read up on those media outlets, go find them for yourself, they are plentiful!

             Warning, it might throw up some questions about “The BBC remains the worlds leading independent news source “, which could open you up to exposing mental frailties when challenged.

             You’re not up for that though, I already know that mental challenges are not something you have the chops for!

             • Te Reo Putake …

               4 August 2012 at 10:17 am

               So illiterate and completely unable to provide evidence at all to back up your claims? Not your best work, Muzza!

               • weka …

                 4 August 2012 at 11:56 am

                 Is illiterate a pejorative on TS? Really?

               • Pete George …

                 4 August 2012 at 12:04 pm

                 TRP: “unable to provide evidence at all to back up your claims?

                 Te hypocrisy.

                 m: “You pointed out I was being ignorantly insulting did you….that really is ironic!”

                 Āna.

                 • bad12 …

                   4 August 2012 at 12:11 pm

                   🙄 Did you not read the comment where Red rings the bell for a halt to personal attacks, f**k off over to the Sewer if you cannot help but indulge in such…

                   • Pete George …

                     4 August 2012 at 12:49 pm

                     bad12 – did you not read the comment where Red rings the bell for a halt to personal attacks? Maybe your irony is accidental.

                   • bad12 …

                     4 August 2012 at 12:56 pm

                     ( 🙄 ) It is in fact as easy to see why you are the recipient of regular bans from the Standard as it is to see that you have failed to learn from such bans,

                     My proposal to those who put the effort into giving us this site so as to further discussion of the things that matter to the Left in New Zealand society and politics is that where a particular commenter has deserved to be the subject of such banning that each time the length of the ban be extended by double the amount of the previous banning…

                   • pukeko …

                     4 August 2012 at 4:52 pm

                     poroheahea

                   • bad12 …

                     4 August 2012 at 6:31 pm

                     If it’s me your calling stupid it’s a wasted effort as i just do not care, if it’s a reference to he who we bestow ^ 🙄 ^ upon i am presently unarmed with any facts that would allow me to debate otherwise…

                   • pukeko …

                     5 August 2012 at 6:59 pm

                     Kaua koe e whai atu i ngā mahi a te hukehuke rā, kei raru kōrua tahi

       • Carol 1.2.1.2

         4 August 2012 at 8:25 pm

         Actually, I know several left wing Brits who think that the BBC news is no longer as independent as it was – I think since the Kelly incident under Blair’s watch. I tend to agree. For instance, it particularly favours a pro-Israel government line and tends to demonise Palestine. I understand that the news on BBC channels broadcast in the UK in the main news slots, is more biased than, say BBC’s international broadcasts.

         See also here:

         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_BBC

         In contrast, writer and journalist John Pilger has frequently accused the BBC of a right-wing bias, a view shared by the left-wing Media Lens website. The editors’ of Media Lens claim that the BBC acts to narrow the range of thought and like most commercial broadcasters it inherently portrays the opinions of the powerful.[18] Former Director General of the BBC, Greg Dyke, has criticised the BBC as part of a “Westminster conspiracy” to maintain the British political system.[19] Respect MP George Galloway has referred to it as the “Bush and Blair Corporation”.[20]

         Also, I used to think Al Jazeera was pretty good at providing critiques from different viewpoints. I watch it quite a bit, but in the last year or two, it has become much more like mainstream western media in mirroring viewpoints of the western power blocs. Although, it still has some good critical pieces, ditto the BBC.

         • Vicky32 1.2.1.2.1

           5 August 2012 at 8:14 pm

           I tend to agree. For instance, it particularly favours a pro-Israel government line and tends to demonise Palestine.

           I have noticed that, sadly… 🙁

     • North 1.2.2

       4 August 2012 at 10:01 pm

       Wasn’t Anita working for FoxNews at some point ?

       I really do apologise if I’m wrong.

       • Colonial Viper 1.2.2.1

         4 August 2012 at 10:09 pm

         LOL how about apologising for being so transparent

       • Anne 1.2.2.2

         5 August 2012 at 7:18 pm

         Yes North, she was ’embedded’ – as the saying went – by Fox News when Iraq Invasion no.2 was in progress. She was quite defensive of them at the time. That’s my recollection anyway.

2. Carol 2

   4 August 2012 at 7:00 am

   More findings from that Ipsos/Fairfax poll, involving interviews with a relatively small number of people (1000). Not surprisingly Nat supporters are more positive about the future than those who support opposition parties – UF & ACT supporters are too small in number to register anything much, except they seem to be ambivalent about the future (maybe they are just always ambivalent?).

   People were asked a range of questions to ascertain how they feel about the future compared with a year ago. Views about the economy seem to have been the strongest influence on people’s feelings about the future:

   http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/7411347/Pulse-of-the-Nation-How-we-see-ourselves

   One in three believes their financial security has lessened over the past 12 months, compared with 23 per cent who felt their situation had improved.
   [..]
   Some of the survey findings are surprising – young men are more likely than older New Zealanders to feel positive and optimistic about the country’s direction, while those in their 40s and 50s – children largely of the 1960s – are comfortable financially, and optimistic about their own prospects, but less positive about the direction of the economy in general.

   They also worry about the protection of the environment and New Zealand’s core values.

   But most interesting is the growing sense of resentment of the wealthy elite:

   Across 1000 interviews, one of the themes that emerged was a growing sense of “us and them”.

   STAY-AT-HOME dad Matthew West, 35, from Taupo, agrees there seems to be a growing undercurrent of resentment in New Zealand toward those who have made it financially.

   “You see that in higher tax rates for the rich. If you’re rich – which I’m not even if I’d like to be – you pay more tax anyway just because you earn more money. But it creates that sort of environment – people think ‘Oh, that person’s rich, he gets this and that, he can dodge his tax’ etc.

   “I think the whole system is set up to breed that resentment. I do think that’s becoming a big issue.”

   Dr Lloyd says some of that sense of “us and them” has been fuelled by worldwide events and the growing transfer of wealth to just a few, which has spawned the likes of the Occupy movement. But National’s asset sales plan is the sort of issue that also helped drive that feeling.

   So, Labour and Greens, take note. it’s time for a change of focus and to jettison the remnants of the neoliberal scam. There’s a growing tide of sentiment that would support a focus on fairness and possibly for what is beneficial to the wider community.

   However, there are some signs of retreat to social isolation as a defense, except in Auckland, where apparently the community spirit is quite strong. There needs to be some strong leadership on drawing people together to work towards the best for society as a whole, so that retreat from community doesn’t take hold.

   • Colonial Viper 2.1

     4 August 2012 at 7:57 am

     So, Labour and Greens, take note. it’s time for a change of focus and to jettison the remnants of the neoliberal scam.

     Problem is, political parties just think that it is time to join in the neoliberal scam.

     • Carol 2.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 8:23 am

       Well, I certainly despair when I see that the government is playing musical houses with state/subsidised housing, shunting the available low cost housing around amongst the poor. Meanwhile they are also trying to push as many people as possible out of state houses and into the rental market:

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10824497

       The group she is working for, He Korowai Trust, has received a $720,000 grant from the Government’s social housing programme towards buying 20ha on the edge of Kaitaia where it will eventually install 27 Glen Innes houses for families that must have at least two children and be living in “substandard, unhealthy or unreliable living conditions”.
       […]
       But housing Kaitaia’s homeless is coming at a serious cost in Glen Innes, where Housing NZ is removing or renovating 156 houses to make way for 78 new or renovated state units, 39 homes for community providers and about 140 privately owned homes.

       Meanwhile the wealthier classes are continuing to spend on buying houses in Auckland, as if there was no recession, paying high dollar to buy up the available housing. No doubt many will take advantage of the struggle to find rental accommodation amongst the less well-off, raising rents so that some will just not be able to afford anywhere to live.

       http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10824355

       Homes are selling at such a speed in Auckland that the number of properties left available at the end of July was the lowest level in seven years.

       The lack of sufficient affordable, safe and secure housing is a disgrace, and still the government does everything to make it worse.

       Will a real opposition PLEASE stand-up and show up this rentier scam!?

       • mike e 2.1.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 10:28 am

         Carol The bubble will burst Ollie Newland has said it won’t be pretty.
         Australian eastern state cities are experiencing a major downturn after a post GFC bubble.
         Just like last time New Zealand will follow suit. its just a matter of time.

       • bad12 2.1.1.2

         4 August 2012 at 11:37 am

         Doesn’t the Babble in that Herald article just do your head in, there’s three strands in the Herald story that are best dealt with as separate issues,

         *First we have Paula Benefit,hardly one for presenting either deep or evidential based analysis of any ‘problem’ She has encountered in Her Social development portfolio, giving a good spray and walk away line in the vein of ‘i thunk it therefor it is’,

         How many beneficiaries are there boarding in State Houses, paying board to the main State House tenant who only pays 25% of income, while the boarder claims from Income Support an accommodation supplement???,

         The Minister (as usual) gives NO figures for the numbers of people supposedly involved and as such i can only assume that Paula Benefit and Phil Heatley have spent an hour together, (focus grouping), creating in their minds the supposed problem,

         Even so,IF there is a problem of this sort occurring,and, My belief is that HousingNZ rents out it’s property’s on the basis of 25% of the TOTAL income of the HOUSEHOLD,it is in fact a simple ‘fix’, and theoretically at least seeing as HousingNZ has just had a $90 Million computer upgrade, an easily accomplished one , where the ‘rule’ of 25% of HOUSEHOLD income be firmly established while changing the rules so that NO accommodation supplement can be paid to anyone living in a HousingNZ tenancy,

         That along with some data matching between Paula and Phil’s fiefdoms of Housing and Social Development so as to have those who make the decisions on Accommodation Supplements know which are and which are not State Houses,

         * Second, really i can only say What The F**k, private providers of Social Housing cannot compete with HousingNZ because the HousingNZ tenants pay 25% of income and the best the private providers of social housing can achieve is 70-80% of market rent,

         As in Wah f**king Wah, the Loony’s having taken over the Asylum now want a ‘Level Playing Field’ to be imposed upon Social Housing because ‘it’s not fair’ that they cannot compete with HousingNZ,

         In all seriousness there is i fear only 2 logical solutions that could be applied here, rule changes aplenty would have to occur as i fear that such people are way to far gone to be swayed by logical argument and my diagnosis would be either to put them up against the wall or provide them a psychiatric institution within which they could indulge in a game of doctors,nurses, and, patients to take turns at solving their own various problems,

         * Third, as Minister of Housing Phil Heatley has given us all an in depth analysis of the problem He,and He appears to be mostly alone here, sees in the HousingNZ rental policy, Phills in depth analysis, ‘we can’t afford it’,

         Annette King makes sport of Phil in the House at question time and you can almost see the mousy Housing Minister looking for a bolt hole every time King skewers Him with another query over matters within His portfolio that amount to slow death by a thousand small cuts,

         Phill has the unenviable task of rack renting HousingNZ tenants most of whom are beneficiaries simply because National have always hated State Housing, nothing more nothing less,

         The whole Herald article really comes down to making up a whole lot of s**t which the tame press will print verbatim which attempts to find some logical justification for National to give Beneficiaries (especially the ones in State Housing who Nationals core voters cannot profit from), another financial kicking in order to satisfy its red-neck core vote…

         • bad12 2.1.1.2.1

           4 August 2012 at 12:51 pm

           As an economic afterthought to my long winded comment above, there is absolutely NOTHING to be gained in an economic sense from any changes that national propose to make to the 25% of income rental regime as applied to it’s HousingNZ stock of social housing,

           The reverse is in fact true,simply rack-renting those who by lack of income are reliant upon the State does nothing but move monies between the various agencies of State in some warped attempt at book balancing,

           For the ‘Real Economy’ the reality simply means that while the State is indulging in fits of ‘give with the left hand’, and, ‘take back with the right’ there is a nett loss in revenue from the State House tenants negatively effected by such stupidity doing what such revenue is supposed to do in the wider economy,

           Money from tenants so negatively affected by such proposed changes simply stops going around in the economy, strangely enough, Nationals core vote in the business sector who benefit by competing for a slice of such money being spent into local economy’s by HousingNZ tenants will also suffer negatively as the money will now simply transit from one Government account to another,

           Thus National is simply proposing to deepen further the ongoing recession and while concentrating upon micro-economics of the Government social spend is blind to the negative impact upon that local economy, (or more to the point seems to just not give a f**k)…

         • North 2.1.1.2.2

           4 August 2012 at 10:12 pm

           In the broadness of my relatively old age I must say I’m invariably invigorated by Annette King.

           She’s like a terrier, pitbullish if necessary, dog with a bone when she’s riled by bullshit answers.

       • millsy 2.1.1.3

         4 August 2012 at 1:46 pm

         “No doubt many will take advantage of the struggle to find rental accommodation amongst the less well-off, raising rents so that some will just not be able to afford anywhere to live.”

         That is what the direct consequence of the changes to state housing will be.

         And I thought the purpose of social housing was to keep rents down? It seems to me that the social housing providers want the government to subsidize their rent?

         • Draco T Bastard 2.1.1.3.1

           4 August 2012 at 2:03 pm

           It seems to me that the social housing providers want the government to subsidize their rent more than at present?

           FIFY

           The accommodation supplement is a government subsidy to the rentiers already.

       • muzza 2.1.1.4

         5 August 2012 at 9:24 am

         The new joint venture between “The Crown & Council”, will not be a CCO but will be run like one.

         Board with salaries, and a multi million dollar budget, was registered on July 24.

         Purpose is to oversee the GI development, initially, and will have the HQ’s based in East Tamaki

     • Olwyn 2.1.2

       4 August 2012 at 9:36 am

       I thought a similar thing – now that they are confident that have a Labour Party moulded to their taste, they can do what they bloody like.

   • Pete George 2.2

     4 August 2012 at 7:59 am

     some of that sense of “us and them” has been fuelled by worldwide events and the growing transfer of wealth to just a few

     How much of the this generated by political campaigning? Greens in particular keep promoting terminology like”the growing transfer of wealth to just a few”.

     It’s ironic that those most adversly affected by the wealth gap don’t have any wealth to transfer, in fact it’s tax paid by the more wealthy that enable them to receive state assistance.

     The “transfer of wealth” term is a misnomer, especially when Greens promote transferring more wealth from rich to poor by raising taxes.

     • Colonial Viper 2.2.1

       4 August 2012 at 8:02 am

       🙄

     • just saying 2.2.2

       4 August 2012 at 8:42 am

       🙄

     • Draco T Bastard 2.2.3

       4 August 2012 at 1:04 pm

       🙄

     • millsy 2.2.4

       4 August 2012 at 1:42 pm

       So publicly owned amenties such as health, education, parks, libaries are not wealth, and that these things are being closed down so the rich get cuts in rates and taxes.

       • millsy 2.2.4.1

         4 August 2012 at 6:49 pm

         Had a thought — correct term is actually transfer the wealth from the wider community to the rich. The closure of hospitals around the country to pay for Bill Birch’s tax cuts in 1996 is an example, as well as Porirua City Council’s closure of the Plimmerton libaray to keep rates down.

         BTW: I have put in an OIA request to get a list of hospitals closed between 1990 and 1999 and 1999 and 2008. We shall then see the effect of tax cuts on health services 🙂

     • Murray Olsen 2.2.5

       4 August 2012 at 8:54 pm

       Pete, just when I had developed some sympathy for you because of what could be identified as bullying behaviour against you, you come out with this ignorant gem. My sympathy has now evaporated completely. You are a delusional and annoying waste of bandwidth.

   • Draco T Bastard 2.3

     4 August 2012 at 12:40 pm

     What I want to know is why they published that ignorant crap from that idiot in Taupo?

3. Sanctuary 3

   4 August 2012 at 8:59 am

   “…So, Labour and Greens, take note. it’s time for a change of focus and to jettison the remnants of the neoliberal scam…”

   The problem is the serious generational lag we have in our political/media elites. Key is a neo-liberal by choice but outside a small but powerful business lobby that Key represents everyone in the rest of the real world has long moved on from neo-liberalism. But our media/political elite is still heavily infested with 1980s and 90s neo-liberal supporters and apologists. English, Roughan, Holmes, Ralston, half the Labour front bench, swags of the Nats (McCully and Williamson for a start) etc etc etc are all left over neo-liberals who are far, far past their use by date. Hopefully Labour will take the opportunity in 2014 to clean out the likes of Mallard, Dyson, King and Goff and bring in a generation of politicians who at least formed some of their ideas in this century….

   Or we should have term limits.

   • Pete George 3.1

     4 August 2012 at 9:23 am

     I don’t think we should have term limits in parliament. Some experience is beneficial – Lockwood Smith as Speaker a good example.

     But there’s nothing to stop parties from having their own term limits, or at least encouraging retirement of MPs past their best and past their value to the party. Have any parties considered term restrictions?

     And if they don’t get the message then leadership could reinforce it by dropping them down the rankings.

     The obvious problem is long serving MPs have too much self serving influence.

     • Te Reo Putake 3.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 9:36 am

       🙄

     • Lanthanide 3.1.2

       4 August 2012 at 9:43 am

       “The obvious problem is long serving MPs have too much self serving influence.”

       Like Peter Dunne.

       • Sanctuary 3.1.2.1

         4 August 2012 at 10:16 am

         Yup. Bit of an own goal from Pete there.

         • Tiger Mountain 3.1.2.1.1

           4 August 2012 at 10:23 am

           Well it is Saturday morning so waffle is definitely on the menu.

         • Pete George 3.1.2.1.2

           4 August 2012 at 10:58 am

           Poor attempt at diversion. And there are very obvious differences.

           Peter Dunne has been essential for United Future’s survival and probably also will be in 2014 if he has another go..

           The retirement of the likes of Goff, Mallard, King, Cosgrove is essential for Labour’s survival. Note that recently Mallard claimed to be mid-career.

           • Colonial Viper 3.1.2.1.2.1

             4 August 2012 at 11:19 am

             “The obvious problem is long serving MPs have too much self serving influence.”

             Like Peter Dunne.

             Apt observation Lanth, which PG ignored and tried to pivot to political parties.

           • QoT 3.1.2.1.2.2

             4 August 2012 at 2:48 pm

             United Future has been essential for Peter Dunne’s survival

             FIFY

             • Pascal's bookie …

               4 August 2012 at 2:51 pm

               Edit needed:

               “Electorate deal making with the National party has been essential for Dunne’s survival”

               • QoT …

                 4 August 2012 at 3:49 pm

                 Seems less … snappy.

4. mike e 4

   4 August 2012 at 10:22 am

   obsessive deluded fans included

5. Pete George 5

   4 August 2012 at 11:00 am

   Not sure why Colin Craig gets so much coverage for a non-politician, I guess money talks.

   But in his case he’s talking all over the place, as one argument gets demolished he moves to another. Ah, marriage convention has changed quite a bit over the last few thousand years. It’s changed quite a bit in my lifetime.

   On The Nation this morning he ended up pleading for his last hope, a referendum. No chance of that either.

   In contrast Louisa Walls impressed with facts and forceful points.

   • Lanthanide 5.1

     4 August 2012 at 12:41 pm

     “Not sure why Colin Craig gets so much coverage for a non-politician, I guess money talks.”

     He got more votes than UF and Peter Dunne did.

     • Pete George 5.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 1:04 pm

       Peter Dunne (Ohariu) 14,357
       Colin Craig (Rodney) 8,031

       The Conservative Party had probably 10 times the UF budget and got more media coverage. They also tried to push shoddy polls to promote their support. They got a creditable number of votes but in the end failed under MMP.

       But that’s all history. Dunne is an MP (and a Minister). Craig is neither.

       And it’s all irrelevant, it’s got nothing to do with my commentt, most of what I talk about is non-UF. More: The Colin Craig Craze.

       • Lanthanide 5.1.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 1:10 pm

         I was proposing a reason for why he gets media attention even though he’s not a politician: because he and his party got significantly more support in the election than two of the politicians who are in parliament.

         • Pete George 5.1.1.1.1

           4 August 2012 at 1:23 pm

           The election is history and was over 8 months ago.

           • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.1.1

             4 August 2012 at 2:13 pm

             although surprisingly, Election performance has a few ongoing consequences for NZ politics 🙄

           • McFlock 5.1.1.1.1.2

             4 August 2012 at 3:51 pm

             lol 
                  

           • felix 5.1.1.1.1.3

             4 August 2012 at 4:38 pm

             “The election is history and was over 8 months ago.”

             Oops, there goes that mandate. 🙄

         • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.1.2

           4 August 2012 at 2:15 pm

           I was proposing a reason for why he gets media attention even though he’s not a politician:

           perhaps you don’t have to be in elected office to be a politician; merely seeking elected office will do it.

           • felix 5.1.1.1.2.1

             4 August 2012 at 4:41 pm

             Regardless of how you define “politician” (and I’m sure we can can all think of a few quite different but quite legitimate variations) the crux is he’s a “political actor”.

             And that’s why he’s news.

             • felix …

               4 August 2012 at 8:18 pm

               Having said that, he’s a twat for referring to himself as “a representative” when he hasn’t been elected.

               Also, that “Austrian dictator” moustache on tv today; well done whoever at tv3 was responsible for lighting the backwards little fucker: http://www.3news.co.nz/Craig-and-Wall-gay-marriage-debate-heats-up/tabid/1356/articleID/264093/Default.aspx

       • QoT 5.1.1.2

         4 August 2012 at 9:31 pm

         Seriously people, this bullshit stat has been sitting here ALL DAY.

         It’s MMP, Pete. Use a stat that fucking counts.

         Party Vote 2011:

         Conservative Party – 59,237

         United Future – 13,443

         • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.2.1

           4 August 2012 at 9:32 pm

           SHA-ZAMM!

         • Colonial Viper 5.1.1.2.2

           4 August 2012 at 9:39 pm

           Actually in terms of statistics this one is also good:

           Peter Dunne (Ohariu) 14,357
           Colin Craig (Rodney) 8,031
           Peter George (Dunedin North) 176

   • Draco T Bastard 5.2

     4 August 2012 at 1:13 pm

     A referendum on marriage would pass the legislation. Personally, if there was a referendum the questions should be:

     Do you think you should have the right to marry?
     Do you think other people should be able to prevent you from marrying?

     I’m reasonably certain that we would get back a 100% Yes/No response.

     Leave it to Craig and other deniers of basic human rights and we’ll probably get some weaselly question that would be more confusing than informative – just like the question on smacking.

     • Pete George 5.2.1

       4 August 2012 at 1:21 pm

       It’s a moot point anyway, there won’t be a referendum on it – although I agree that if there was it would agree with what MPs are likely to pass.

       It’s possible Craig will try a CIR on this but I think he’s using the issue to raise profile rather than thinking he has any chance of success at stopping the Marriage bill.

       Louisa Wall presented her case impressively on The Nation, and Colin Craig kept moving from one smackdown to another.

6. Pascal's bookie 6

   4 August 2012 at 11:04 am

   Few links on Syria.

   This one is similar to the sorts of reports that were coming out of Iraq in late 04 and through 05, with what national identity that had existed falling away in the face of sectarian group dynamics:

   http://nyti.ms/RnM63z

   In light of that, I suspect that these guys are dreaming:

   http://wapo.st/OG3GQn

   Poor bloody Kurds. As ever. http://f24.my/Rsl1MM

   The Iraqi government still hasn’t finalised it’s constitution with regard to the Kurds. The govts, new and old, in Iraq, Turkey, Iran, and Syria may well have many differences but you can bet they’ll all agree that the Kurds won’t be getting anything like a homeland. If western peeps want something simple to get pissed off about with a clear cut right and wrong side, that’s about as close a one as I can see in this mess. Good luck convincing our governments to do anything but.

   An interesting piece on the coverage from Al Jazeera and Al Arabiya http://t.co/M1AGvnqa

   But if you really want nightmare visions. Read the press coming out of Lebanon. Whose up for picking sides in a Hezbollah vs Al-Qaeda fight? And think about the stakes of that.

   As is obvious, this is a fight that has nothing to do with us. Putting ‘what we think ought to happen’ into the mix is a recipe for blowback. And it’s messy enough already for mind.

   It’s awful, but that doesn’t mean that anything we can do will make it better.

   • Draco T Bastard 6.1

     4 August 2012 at 1:31 pm

     It’s awful, but that doesn’t mean that anything we can do will make it better.

     Bingo.

     The only thing we can realistically do is let them sort themselves out. Unfortunately, there doesn’t appear to be any hope of that happening.

   • Herodotus 6.2

     4 August 2012 at 8:06 pm

     Finally some in that useless UN have grown some gonads, even if it is non binding.
     The UN has been for a long time to me replicating its parent, The League of Nations in its inability at doing anything but allow its delegates and support staff the lifestyle that New York offers.
     http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19106250

     • Colonial Viper 6.2.1

       4 August 2012 at 8:22 pm

       The UN has been for a long time to me replicating its parent, The League of Nations in its inability at doing anything but allow its delegates and support staff the lifestyle that New York offers.

       No additional world wars since the UN was founded. That’s something.

       BTW the delegates to the UN and various support staff don’t have a say in whether the UN continues or not, so their “lifestyle” convenience has nothing to do with it.

       • Herodotus 6.2.1.1

         5 August 2012 at 11:48 am

         Tell that to the 40.968 million who have been killed in various wars since WWII, I am sure they take consolation that there was No WW War III.
         http://www.cissm.umd.edu/papers/files/deathswarsconflictsjune52006.pdf
         From a financial point of view why have the UN based in New York. I am sure we could find a developing nation that would benefit from the economic activity. Perhaps such an idea JK could take aboard to fix our countries economic woes and the msm would believe,take and run with this perhaps a great diversion just like making NZ a financial hub. 😉
         http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10691438

     • RedLogix 6.2.2

       4 August 2012 at 8:36 pm

       The UN in it’s current form is not permitted to grow gonads. It is still fundamentally limited by the G8 nations unwilling to give it enough power to act effectively.

       And most especially not to act against their own hegemonic ambitions.

7. Penny Bright 7

   4 August 2012 at 1:20 pm

   ‘Aussie Rules’ to help prevent corrupt Ministerial ‘conflicts of interest’.

   How come – if New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’ – we don’t have these legislative safeguards?

   http://www.abc.net.au/news/2007-12-06/rudd-announces-ministerial-code-of-conduct/979880

   Penny Bright
   ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

   http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

   • Draco T Bastard 7.1

     4 August 2012 at 1:32 pm

     How come – if New Zealand is ‘perceived’ to be ‘the least corrupt country in the world’ – we don’t have these legislative safeguards?

     Because having and enforcing them would show up just how corrupt NZ has become.

     • Penny Bright 7.1.1

       4 August 2012 at 1:46 pm

       John Key is a shareholder in the Bank of America.

       That would not be lawful if he were the Prime Minister of Australia.

       Seen this?

       John Key publicly admits his Bank of America shareholding at a Grey Power public meeting in February 2011.

       http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXwNoaOpDMw

       Remember – when he worked for Merrill Lynch – he was the Head of Derivatives – and at the time the Glass Steagall Act (which kept separate boring safe commercial banking and risky dangerous investment banking) was repealed – November 1999 – John Key was a Foreign Exchange Advisor for the New York Federal Reserve.

       So – what role did shonky John Key play in the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act?

       Why is this important?

       Because the repeal of the Glass Steagall Act helped to leave the dodgy derivatives market completely unregulated.

       Which is the main reason why the world is facing an international financial meltdown?

       Because of the collapse of the dodgy derivatives market – which shonky John Key helped to set up?

       Penny Bright
       ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

       http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

       • mike e 7.1.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 7:14 pm

         Penny the price of BofA ML shares will be worthless.
         Not unlike Keys promises.
         Bof A suffered huge loss’s because of more dodgy dealings at ML.
         They also facing legal action on many fronts and the US government is in no mood for a second bail out.

       • North 7.1.1.2

         4 August 2012 at 10:19 pm

         Love it Penny.

8. captain hook 8

   4 August 2012 at 5:13 pm

   yes and now the reserve bank of new zealand is in the process of allowing the uncovered bonds act to go through so there will be even less control of the issuers of shonky derivatives.

   • Penny Bright 8.1

     5 August 2012 at 4:18 pm

     “yes and now the reserve bank of new zealand is in the process of allowing the uncovered bonds act to go through so there will be even less control of the issuers of shonky derivatives.”

     Got a link to that Bill, Captain Hook?

     And the ‘Regulatory Impact Report / Statement’?

     Anybody?

     Cheers!

     Penny Bright
     ‘Anti-corruption campaigner’

     http://www.dodgyjohnhasgone.com

9. Pete George 9

   4 August 2012 at 5:29 pm

   I wonder how well this is supported in the Green Party:

   Greens would support military intervention in Syria

   The Green Party says New Zealand should vote for military intervention in Syria at the United Nation if the fighting there reaches the point where crimes against humanity are being committed.

   Green MP Kennedy Graham, who met Syrian refugees six weeks ago in camps near the border with Jordan, says the General Assembly should pass economic sanctions on Syria and take military action if the circumstances warrant it.

   http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/political/112449/greens-would-support-military-intervention-in-syria

   And I wonder if they support a quick hit, or an occupation for a few years.

   • Colonial Viper 9.1

     4 August 2012 at 5:43 pm

     Disastrous. I don’t think that they have thought the military goals through at all. We vote for it, we’ll have to commit troops to the ground.

   • Draco T Bastard 9.2

     4 August 2012 at 6:16 pm

     Yeah, well, there’s a reason why I’m going off the Greens.

     • bad12 9.2.1

       4 August 2012 at 7:02 pm

       It does make me wonder just how far to the right the Greens have actually slipped when there are Green MP’s calling for military intervention in any conflict, let alone one where it’s becoming more than a little apparent the US is intervening via proxy,

       Someone else mentioned the other day the fact that it seems that the right stages ‘take-overs’ of the political party’s on the left with consumate ease, and, i have also been feeling uneasy about certain aspects of the Greens ‘going straight’ for the purposes of electoral success,

       The modern Left in New Zealand and in particular supporting the Parliamentary Left has felt increasingly akin to some nomadic journey, a gypsy circus trodden with more disappointment than hope,

       My thought is though, give the Greens at least a term of Government with at least my vote at the 2014 election, but, i have already begun the where to from here type thought…

       • Pascal's bookie 9.2.1.1

         4 August 2012 at 9:04 pm

         Lol. Mostly at the idea that Pete F. George think he is in any position to be questioning what Kennedy Graham knows or does not know about International Relations.

         Read what he is saying. Closely.

         If their are crimes against humanity taking place what is the Green party’s longstanding position on that sort of thing? Bear in mind that crimes against humanity is not a synoym for ‘shit I don’t like’.

         Next think about what he is saying we should do, and by implication shouldn’t do.

         Is Graham saying we should join in any ‘coalition of the willing’ style clusterfuck?

         Or is he saying that that sort of adventure would be illegal and that we should not only have no part in it but that we should be doing something else.

         What should the International community do about Crimes against humanity?

         That’s the question he’s asking, and he’s putting the govt in a box with regard to requests to join ad hoc illegal coalitions.

         He is not an idiot:

         http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_Graham

         • Draco T Bastard 9.2.1.1.1

           4 August 2012 at 10:45 pm

           According to the RNZ article he’s advocating economic sanctions which always hit the people at the bottom of the pyramid while the people at the top, the people that the santions are supposed to stop, don’t feel a thing. Please also note that the people at the top are already shooting at the people at the bottom (which I’m pretty sure is already a Crime Against Humanity).

           Chances of sanctions doing anything? Around zero.

           He then says that if sanctions don’t work (pretty much guaranteed) in containing (not stopping) the slaughter then military intervention is required.

           Basically, IMO, he’s advocating a default position of military intervention.

           Now, preventing arms being delivered to the current government is probably a valid option and one I would support but not full sanctions and definitely no military intervention. I think we’ll probably see both though.

         • muzza 9.2.1.1.2

           5 August 2012 at 7:59 am

           “He is not an idiot”

           –No but he is the brother of Doug Graham, so Ill say it again.

           The Greens are not what people wish them to be, thats not what they exist for, and have ben taken over some time ago, its all too easy to control politics, you just have to do a little digging into the backgrounds of these people.

           Labour gone towards the right, Greens headed the same way. Just control a few key people inside each entity, and its job done, the coutry and the people get screwed, and most either have no idea, or actually vote for those who screw them!

   • Jenny 9.3

     5 August 2012 at 9:11 am

     Why are the Greens are making this call now, when it looks like the victory of the rebellion is all but guaranteed, and a Western intervention now, would only act to steal the people’s victory?

     The Green Party says New Zealand should vote for military intervention in Syria at the United Nation if the fighting there reaches the point where crimes against humanity are being committed.

     Kennedy Graham Radio NZ report

     What is crazy about this, about this call for Western intervention from the Greens is that crimes against humanity are already being committed, and have been for some time. From the firing on unarmed protesters, to the detention, torture and murder of deserters wives and children, to the aerial bombardment of civilian centres resulting in the mass deaths of civilians.

     I am sure that regime defenders of this monstrous regime like Colonial Viper would welcome any attempt to snatch victory from the resistance.

     Have the Greens been ignorantly swallowing the propaganda from pro regime supporters in this country?

10. RedBaron 10

    4 August 2012 at 7:50 pm

    B12 Yep I did wonder before the last election whether closet blue green was was infiltrating the Greens- something felt a little off key but couldn’t really put my finger on it.Noticed a lot of the old guard retired all at once and none of them seemed to be morphing into the older party statesperson type role which nade me wonder if they are still welcome through the door. Also the “we may do a deal with the Nats line.”

    And are we getting a strong media slant on Green party actions when it lines up with Nact aspirations. Lots of attention on Norman none really on Meretai.

    Different subject entirely – our revered leader isn’t swanning around at the Olympics for the photo ops. So unlike him what’s wrong – is he ill, unwelcome or something else?

    And again – I wondered if we will continue to win at the Olypics as we do now? Child poverty destroys early sporting chances (?) I suspect, so is there any correlation between left wing governments and sucess some years later.

    I see the Aussies are trying for an exchange rate/gold medal correlation oh dear ………..

    • Colonial Viper 10.1

      4 August 2012 at 7:53 pm

      National Party strategists will have examined in detail whether or not a confidence and supply arrangement with the Greens is possible.

      • felix 10.1.1

        4 August 2012 at 8:34 pm

        They will also have examined in detail the likelihood of winning a bunch of gold medals for Key to pose in front of.

        If he’s on the spot, he might have to be seen with losers. And Key doesn’t do losers, it doesn’t fit the brand.

        Nah, safer to wait and see what comes home and sort photo-ops then if it’s worth it.

        • Colonial Viper 10.1.1.1

          4 August 2012 at 8:36 pm

          Yeah, that’s likely too.

11. Anne 11

    4 August 2012 at 9:12 pm

    Nah, safer to wait and see what comes home and sort photo-ops then if it’s worth it.

    Yeah well, the C/T trained PR team will be in full motion organising a shindig at parliament as we speak. My suggestion is: the opposition stake out the possible venues inside the Beehive for the Key photo op. and gatecrash it at the last minute. Oh how hilarious to see Shearer/ Mallard/Norman/Turei grinning cheesily from the sidelines. That would make my week. Harawira (grinning cheesily) could appear over the top of Key. That would make my month.

12. North 12

    4 August 2012 at 10:38 pm

    I look forward to the moment Hone will pick.

    It’s very important because he is the parliamentary moral leader of Maori. That’s the guts on the street now. People can forget their bullshit stuff about manners and so on.

    And for them who’ll come up “Nah, he’s a prick or whatever……….” – damn it, they’re all older. Young people are receptive, even if subliminally, to the relative deprivation and need that is very pervasive now.

    So go away Tariana and Pita. You’re not relevant anymore. You have sat at the table while Maori have suffered and still you’re saying all is as sweet, as sweet as it can be.

    • ak 12.1

      5 August 2012 at 12:28 am

      The gaps have widened since Tari and Pit have been sitting at the tepu, building relationships and going through processes.

      That’s all Hone needs to say.

      It’s also all Labour needs to say.

      But the press will never report it, so the 10% masterchef watchers who decide our future will never hear it.

      Unless they’re told in weird and unusual ways.

      Big ups to you bake-sale and nudie acitivists. Looks like fun too.

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