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Open mike 05/01/2022

Written By: - Date published: 6:00 am, January 5th, 2022 - 183 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post.

For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the Policy).

Step up to the mike …

183 comments on “Open mike 05/01/2022 ”

  1. pat 1

    Green Hydrogen…

    or not.

    • RedLogix 1.1

      Only got as far as the EROI comparison to get to the first dishonesty. Essentially they assume the wind energy can be directly used at every moment it's being generated which is not always true – to the the H2 case where the energy has been stored and can be used when you need it. In other words they've discounted the value of the energy storage to zero and gotten to a stupid answer.

      Second dishonest comparison, they take the high price of a new tech, low volume car and use that to inflate the cost of conversion. In any real world scenario the maturity, volumes and costs of H2 vehicles would be considerably better, just as the first EV's were too expensive but became affordable over time. And more importantly would be part of the usual vehicle fleet replacement price which a quick back of envelope calculation already costs us around $5b pa, not an incremental new cost they present it as.

      Third dishonest claim is platinum catalyst availability limit – as if this was not well understood and being actively researched. (Far too many links to be bothered posting here.)

      Fourth dishonest claim is hydrogen embrittlement in metals is equally blinkered – there are good alternatives to using metals already in production. Nor was there any attempt at qualifying the issue which is not the deal breaker they're pretending it is.

      Fifth dishonesty is to go all in on ‘the world’s largest hydroliser at 10MW’ as if this was some kind of limit. It’s not.

      Another dishonesty is to pretend their pathway is the only one possible, while there are many other options being actively explored. Or this process that is at pilot scale now. They’re assuming that the process technology will not and cannot be improved.

      Finally their 100MW example is pathetically small compared to the projects underway. All at a GW scale with considerable investment; maybe their engineers know something this pair don't. For example most of this first H2 is not destined to power cars, but other applications like de-carbonising steel and concrete production, or large vehicles where the very low energy density of batteries is a deal breaker. But none of this mentioned.

      Summary – hit piece easily pulled apart with a few moments on a search engine. The only upside is I did learn a couple of new things.

      • Ad 1.1.1

        The Firstgas plan to convert New Zealand's total gas pipeline to hydrogen has plenty of government and industry support.

        Everyone's motivated to tell Genesis where to go for the bulk customers.

        • RedLogix

          That's very interesting. Another rumour I spotted a few weeks back is that FMG are looking at using the Marsden Point infrastructure for some kind of H2 project.

          I don't want to oversell H2, it's not a silver bullet, but part of a mix of technologies that we will need to decarbonise. I spent most of last year commissioning at a lithium plant and this year looks like it may be H2 – so I'm not biased. Just diversified cool

        • pat

          No vested interest there….lol.

          • RedLogix

            It's my observation that people who indulge in little but cynicism – deliver nothing useful.

            • pat

              And its my observation that healthy cynicism is an important function of planning…..and not much happens without that.

      • Bearded Git 1.1.2

        Why do they call it "green" hydrogen? This is greenwash. Complete bollocks.

        We don't say I'm going to put green solar panels on my roof to help power my green house or to feed the grid to power my green EV that uses green batteries.

        The evidence in the video looks pretty compelling to me. Hydrogen makes no sense at all compared to the far cheaper and more efficient (and getting rapidly more efficient) battery storage model.

        The real question is how we generate and distribute electricity in the first place to meet future demand; I have posted before on TS about how wind turbines destroy landscape values, meaning they are only a very limited option IMHO. Solar and offshore wind turbines are the best options.

        • RedLogix

          Why do they call it "green" hydrogen? This is greenwash. Complete bollocks.

          The colours are shorthand descriptions that have a specific technical meaning:

          Green hydrogen

          Green hydrogen is extracted using a method that does not produce GHG emissions. As the name suggests, its production is sustainable and environmentally friendly. Green hydrogen is most commonly produced using a device called an electrolyser. Electrolysers use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The key to this method of producing green hydrogen is that the electricity that powers the electrolyser comes from renewable sources, such as wind, solar, which have no associated GHG emissions. There are also pathways to produce green hydrogen from waste biomass.

          Blue hydrogen

          Blue hydrogen is produced using a process called ‘steam reforming’, which uses steam to separate hydrogen from natural gas. This process does produce GHGs, but carbon capture and storage technologies capture and store those emissions.

          Grey hydrogen

          Grey hydrogen is also extracted from natural gas using steam reforming but in this case, relevant technologies don’t capture resulting emissions. Instead, they are released into the atmosphere.

          Brown and black hydrogen

          Brown hydrogen (made from brown coal) and black hydrogen (made from black coal) are produced via gasification. It’s an established process used in many industries that converts carbon-rich materials into hydrogen and carbon dioxide. As a result, gasification releases those by-products into the atmosphere.

          However, if technology ends up storing those emissions, that hydrogen can sometimes be called blue.

          There are other colours too

          Turquoise hydrogen

          Turquoise hydrogen describes hydrogen produced when natural gas is broken down into hydrogen and solid carbon via pyrolysis. This method uses heat to break down a material’s chemical make up. It’s seen as ‘low carbon’ as the hydrogen production process doesn’t emit any GHGs. But there can be emissions associated with the mining and transport of natural gas that is used as the starting product.

          Yellow, purple and pink hydrogen

          But wait, there’s more! We occasionally see yellow hydrogen describing hydrogen made from direct water splitting, or purple (or pink) for hydrogen derived using nuclear power. There are also murmurings of white hydrogen, which may be extractable from underground.

          There is a bit more to it than 'bollocks' cheeky

          The evidence in the video looks pretty compelling to me.

          It was meant to be compelling.

          • Bearded Git

            Ah OK I didn't know that. But it alters little as the description you give says:

            As the name suggests, its production is sustainable and environmentally friendly. Green hydrogen is most commonly produced using a device called an electrolyser. Electrolysers use electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen. The key to this method of producing green hydrogen is that the electricity that powers the electrolyser comes from renewable sources, such as wind, solar, which have no associated GHG emissions. There are also pathways to produce green hydrogen from waste biomass.

            Again I say this is greenwash-the inefficiencies of needing huge amounts of power (compared with the alternatives) to to make and store hydrogen means it is not green at all.

          • alwyn

            You've found a use for the crazy pedestrian crossing we have in Wellington. We can update each line by writing in the amount of that type of hydrogen that we are using. Perhaps we can update the numbers every 6 months or so.

            It won't be graffiti I will simply be a means of keeping the public up to date. I hope there are enough colours.


          • lprent

            No problem with the green hydrogen – provided you look back up the whole supply chain, especially with GHG producing energy sources.

            But blue hydrogen can only be described as being useless.

            This process does produce GHGs, but carbon capture and storage technologies capture and store those emissions.

            As someone who was trained in earth sciences, I have enormous scepticism about getting the kinds of long term storage required. Just as I have about highly radioactive waste.

            I don't think that it can be done safely at anything apart from exorbitant cost. If at all. After all we are talking about near to geological time scales required for sequestration. You want a reliable way of storing without environmental leakage for centuries at a bare minimum. In environment where climate change alone creates a major risk.

            Basically humans simply don't have any technology that could make that safe. They also don't appear to be developing any that would met a cost/benefit analysis over simply not creating greenhouse gases by changing to known and working technologies.

            For instance, the most common delusion, stuffing carbon in any form into expired gas or oil fields is just a deferral for a few years or decades. Those formations leak like crazy after they have been penetrated, partially collapsed or fractured under pressure pushing hydrocarbons out. Even to get them into the ground, they'd have to force out the junk that they stuck in the domes to get the last of the hydrocarbons out. And that is before considering the regular earthquakes.

            Same problem for almost every other way that I have ever seen to sequester carbon.

            The need for hydrogen power is pretty clear. It is as RL said

            For example most of this first H2 is not destined to power cars, but other applications like de-carbonising steel and concrete production, or large vehicles where the very low energy density of batteries is a deal breaker. But none of this mentioned.

            Concrete and steel (each about ~8% of emissions) de-carbon are a major climate change targets. Steel has already been demonstrated to be relatively easy to convert to virtually no carbon if there was sufficient H2. Cement a lot less so because you can use it reduce heating costs, but it doesn't help at all with CO2 process emissions driven off the clinker.

            With high load vehicles like trucks, ships, aircraft, and most construction equipment. Electric power is pretty useless for really heavy loads and is unlikely to get much better. It'd probably require decades to get the required increases in density steps if there is a possible way to do it and to make them safe enough to use widely.

            All of those are industrial level equipment and can afford to install the large levels of protection that storing and transporting large quantities of hydrogen entail. That is several orders of magnitude more of distribution and storage problem than with virtually all of the current hydrocarbons in use.

            But shifting hydrogen is also something that is already done on an industrial scale. Just not something that I'd consider as being safe enough to put into a personal vehicle with an average young kiwi driver. Doesn't look that problem is going to be fixed in the coming decades as well – most of the approaches looks like it is decades away from widespread engineering.

            For cars, light load vans, light load trucks and buses – EV is already viable and starting to be in widespread use.

            The problem there is mostly in the power supply chain – mostly that a lot of generation worldwide isn't green. Plus that electricity grids aren't designed to handle stored electrical power or micro-generated electrical power. To me that looks to be more of an issue about investment and software than basic science or engineering. Lots of lithium storage bunkers dotted around like the traditional ammo bunkers are in your future.

            • RedLogix

              Yes – I'm not much of a fan of CO2 capture and underground reservoir storage. I wasn't promoting it, just pointing out what the various 'hydrogen colours' actually meant.

              • lprent

                My rant was more about the issues. but I see that I used the 'you' word in there once – sorry. I'm trying to break myself of that habit.

                One of the things that I tend to dislike about a lot of discussion and policy about climate change is the dependence on on unproven GHG reduction or mitigation technologies. That may have been a valid policy use in the 1990s. Now more than 20 years later it really only qualifies as wilful obstruction.

                And yet when you look at COP-26 that is mostly what is on the table. Including by our government. The farming community has had the last 20 years to figure out how to decrease methane, yet have managed to increase the total volume of emissions of the most dangerous short term GHG gases of methane by ~8% between 1990 and 2018, and nitrous oxide by more.

                Right now we need to concentrate on using technologies that are at least working and dropping emissions as fast as possible. Not exactly what we promised in our largest GHG problem over the next 30 years – agricultural policy was all about tech that neither exists nor shows that much promise based on what has been proven not to work at any scale. We should just start doing back taxes on agriculture backdated to the introduction of the ETS.

                As is pointed out by juice media, at this point policies incorporating future tech promises are just bullshit. I must start donating to that crew.

                • RedLogix

                  Right now we need to concentrate on using technologies that are at least working and dropping emissions as fast as possible.

                  I've repeatedly said I've no problem with the Solar/Wind/Battery crowd and I wish them the best. I expect we will push what can be achieved in that mode as far as possible. But equally we don't hear a lot from them around the very real limits of what can be achieved with renewables either. They can definitely play a role now, but they cannot take the whole 8 or 9b of humanity into anything like an acceptable future.

                  De-carbonising is not going to be a set of 'one off, drop in and done' replacements for our existing modes of production. It will be successive waves of evolution, starting with the SWB mode we're in right now and then over the next decade or so we'll see a host of other technologies that are in the research or development stage now – start to appear in production.

                  Yes it would be nice if the development of all of this had happened decades ago – but then I have my own views on why that never happened.

                  • lprent

                    De-carbonising is not going to be a set of 'one off, drop in and done' replacements for our existing modes of production.

                    But planning on future technologies to bridge the gaps 20-30 years down the line (like the aussie and our government) is just a recipe for increasing the total GHG emissions between now and then. It just increases risk and at present those risks are starting to get into the mode of being in the big upswing of a S curve.

                    It is a classic investment problem. Putting in a relatively shit technology like lithium battery banks next to variable power sources for fats load balancing isn't optimal.

                    Even with the rapid battery replacement, it is even better than having to fire up a old coal powered power station or installing a new gas powered station with a 30 year investment life span and a need to find a new field, or trying to rush in a SMR without a viable waste disposal plan.

                    In GHG terms it probably even beats putting in a new dam because those have a very large build carbon footprint.

                    Yes it would be nice if the development of all of this had happened decades ago – but then I have my own views on why that never happened.

                    Who doesn't. But mostly I think it is just investors wanting to realise returns from current investments, and not wanting to get taxed for the benefit of the future.

          • lprent

            Also I'd point out that very few of the current H2 generation projects are 'Green Hydrogen'. Almost all of them apart from a few bleeding edge projects using brand new tech (ie requiring decades of debugging) have a hydrocarbon feed stock.

            The relevant information about sequestration of carbon for these projects that I am aware of could be taken apart by anyone who has studied any earth sciences in minutes. Most of them are simply ways to effectively throw the pollutant costs on to later generations because they rely on shonky and engineering and science that has never been even remotely tested.

            They really need to do the equivalent of crash test testing on it.

            • Jenny how to get there

              Talking about bleeding edge technologies.

              Rather than using electricity to split water into its constituent parts, heat can do it.

              Electricity generated by wind towers or photo electric solar cells is not the only way to split water into Hydrogen and Oxygen to release Green Hydrogen.

              Concentrated solar arrays can produce extremely high temperatures where water disasocciates, no electicity or electolysers needed.

              Install Ivanpah sized solar collectors in the hot Australian interior feed them with water. Voila.


      • pat 1.1.3

        Oh dear….claiming dishonesty with your own.

        Summary…they take actual existing real world data for the basis of their assessment and you continue to assume future capabilities that may never occur.

        "Hydrogen’s viability as a fuel source — regardless of industry — depends on rapid development of a variety of transport, delivery and storage technologies that are young but fast-evolving. Commercializing these technologies will not be simple, but they are being addressed. Below is a summary of some work being done."


        "Industrial gas giant Linde will build and operate what it claims will be the “world’s largest PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane) electrolyser” plant to produce green hydrogen once it is operational at the Leuna chemical complex in Germany.'


        Hope is a wonderful thing….delusion not so much.

        • RedLogix

          I've seen this argument before – it rests on the idea that no technical progress ever happens.

          • pat

            And how long do you wish to wait for these grand technical advances?….never mind the basic EROI of hydrogen production isnt going to change irrespective.

            • RedLogix

              The calculation of EORI used in that video is the wrong calculation when the source of the energy is solar/wind. The correct term to be using is not the energy produced (which is essentially free), but the energy embedded in the solar panel/wind turbine infrastructure. That's a quite different calculation to the simplistic one presented.

              • pat

                It is a different calculation…and one that makes the EROI even worse, they have been generous by only measuring the operational EROI rather than the embedded and operational energy costs.

                • RedLogix

                  I went back and checked their claims.

                  They make the very common mistake of including the operational wind/solar energy in the EORI calculation, when for renewables you don't care about that at all. There is nothing 'generous' about this at all – it's simply irrelevant.

                  Also it wasn't clear to me how their numbers added up, but that could be my fault.

                  • pat

                    Mistake?…look at the first calculation…essentially an EROI of 0.25….no calculation for energy source….energy in v energy out.

                    Its a dog….and we dont have energy to spare

                  • pat

                    Can i reproduce it?….I imagine so, however i dont need to because the calculation has been reproduced by many and often…it is generally accepted that for every unit of energy from hydrogen produced 4 units of energy are involved in its production…..do you wish to prove otherwise?


                    • RedLogix

                      I've given you the video link above, timestamped to the relevant moment in the discussion. I'm interested to see how it's done.

                    • pat

                      "look at the first calculation…essentially an EROI of 0.25….no calculation for energy source….energy in v energy out."

                      You wish to prove otherwise?…remembering shes a published, peer reviewed engineer of decades standing.

                  • pat

                    Time stamped?…I think not ..youve provided nothing more

                    than a re link to the video I attached.

                    If you think your calculations can show otherwise then by all means present them.

                  • pat

                    And a student of (i suspect) of Al Bartlett….you have quite some pedigree to contest….go for it.

                    • RedLogix

                      Doesn't make any sense does it?

                    • pat

                      It adds up…its not perhaps the way I'd choose to present it but I havnt had the opportunity to ask why it was presented thus….but i see no fundamental flaw.

                      Again I refer you to the previous chart…an EROI of essentially 0.25.


                    • RedLogix

                      EROI stands for energy returned on energy invested. It's not the flow of energy through the system.

                      If the energy flow is essentially free and limitless as sunshine is – then you don't care about it, it's not a cost or investment of any kind. But apparently the calculation in the video includes it in the H2 case – although apparently not in the battery case.

                      But it's your reference – if you cannot defend it then just say so.

                    • pat

                      Are you suggesting there is no energy cost to storing hydrogen?….or that it dosnt need to be stored for use?….either way it would seem an odd proposition.

        • Blade

          I had a machine with a DuPont SPE PEM (Proton Exchange Membrane). Meant to be one of the best on the market. The problem is PEM filters block up depending on water quality. That can lead to plate wear.

      • Stuart Munro 1.1.4

        Looks like an epic scam to me – preferred route of manufacture is natural gas – not a renewable. No reticulation infrastructure, and pretty significant issues to overcome with safety – all so people can pretend to drive green vehicles instead of stepping away from them.

        Butanol is a better system.

        • RedLogix

          There is no 'preferred route' – methane was merely the conventional method of producing H2 for industrial purposes. Then there is the Hazer process that's running at pilot scale and shows another pathway.

          Or the Australian National Roadmap. There's plenty to chew on in that.

          • Stuart Munro

            Meh – the government is funding it because they see possible export $ – there has been no mature consideration of viable green technologies – it's on a par with Brazilian carbon credits – what governments do instead of rising to meet the challenges (and opportunities) of the 21st century.

            • RedLogix

              What 'viable green technologies'? The left rules them out just as soon as they realise they're not compatible with their wild dreams of reverting to a pre-industrial utopia.

              • arkie

                This canard again. Tilting at straw men.

                • RedLogix

                  What "viable green technologies'? You don't explain what you mean – so I get to fill the vacuum with whatever I like.

                  • arkie

                    Whatever you like always seems to be broadbrush smears of the left as a whole. What you claim the left believes is not remotely accurate, it's just intellectually lazy provocation. Such wild claims about such a diverse group as an entire wing of the political spectrum aren't useful if we want to have any kind of rational political debate here.

                    • RedLogix

                      There was your opportunity to make the effort to outline what you meant by 'viable green technologies' – instead you throw a little rant.

                      I've put in a decent effort today to explain what H2 has to offer and why it has a place in the wider decarbonising scheme. In response there's been nothing but ill-informed negativity and repeated claims that 'it can't be done'.

                      You brought nothing.

                    • arkie

                      I didn’t mean anything by ‘viable green technologies’ because I didn’t make that comment, that was Stuart Munro.

                      What I am objecting to is your unfounded and un-cited claim about the beliefs of the left as a whole. We all should be discouraged from making such ridiculous claims about our political oppenents, it doesn’t make our arguments any stronger nor does it make us seem rational.

                    • RedLogix

                      OK so you're objecting to my tone.

                    • arkie

                      No, not tone. You made the claim:

                      The left rules them out just as soon as they realise they're not compatible with their wild dreams of reverting to a pre-industrial utopia.

                      This surely requires a citation or the caveat that this is entirely in your imagination.

                    • RedLogix

                      This entire thread more or less proves my contention.

                    • arkie

                      Where are the wild dreams of reverting to a pre-industrial utopia in this thread? Or in fact anywhere? Cite it or retract it.

                    • RedLogix

                      lol – I'll retract it.

              • Stuart Munro

                Butanol for one – you make it from a cellulose feedstock – ie it soaks up carbon before you burn it – it runs in existing engines and reticulation infrastructure.

                But no, it has to be hydrogen. I suppose we're meant to be grateful it's not fusion.

                • RedLogix

                  I'm skeptical – biomass schemes don't have a sparkly track record to date, why would this one be different?

                  • Stuart Munro

                    They're green enough – they just struggle against subsidized petrochemicals at present.

                    The cost of inputs however, is very low, and that means in first principles terms, that given sufficient development this technology will be competitive with fossil fuels.

                    The big missing factor of your preference, hydrogen, is the energy source. Even given all the multifarious issues of hydrogen were resolved, absent a cheap energy surplus, hydrogen fails. Moreover, if there is a way to use cheap surplus energy without the conversion to hydrogen, that use will invariably be much more efficient, and likely much greener too.

    • Gezza 1.2

      Not, it seems. indecision

      • Gezza 1.2.1

        Or maybe, it now seems – after reading RL's contribution above. From his last link:

        Despite all the challenges that 2020 has brought, a staggering 50GW of green-hydrogen electrolysis projects have been announced this year, out of a current global total of 80GW, as more and more countries announce ambitious clean-hydrogen strategies to help them decarbonise transport, heating and heavy industry.

        Many of these projects are gigawatt-scale, with the hope that their immense size will quickly bring down the cost of green hydrogen through economies of scale — in the same way that the prices of wind and solar power have fallen exponentially over the past decade.

        It has been a remarkably rapid development for green hydrogen when you consider that the world’s largest electrolyser currently in operation is only 10MW, and that most of these gigawatt-scale H2 projects will also be among the planet’s largest renewables plants.

        • RedLogix

          I was a bit harsh above. Green H2 is not a magic bean that will solve all our problems, it has to be understood in it's correct context before it makes sense.

          • Gezza

            Nevertheless I take your point their analysis appears does not appear to recognise all the current research and projects underway.

        • pat

          Read Reds links and you will see his claims are grossly overstated AND based on expectation rather than existence…..we can all create futures where the improbable occurs

  2. Blade 2

    A interesting case unfolds. I don't have enough information to make a judgement. But I think police will need to be 100% confident their actions were justified. I would also like to know who made the complaint. Police have been know in recent times to turn up on certain gun owners doors and ask about their political views.


    • Sabine 2.1

      I guess it is much easier ransacking a priests home rather then going after gang members that real havoc rather then just someone who is outspoken.

      • Blade 2.1.1

        I agree. If this pastor is found to be in the wrong and a threat, that's fine – one less nutter in society. If the police are found to be wrong, or acted on flimsy information to curtail someone who spouts unpopular views in public, that's not fine. Should that be the case I would expect the media to be onto this like a rabid dog. But they won't. It may not even get a mention.

        • Sabine

          Personally i have no use for guns generally, but as per the article, he gun was locked away in a safe and that safe was ripped of the wall and then opened with a key that was found elsewhere. Ah, good old terrorism laws that can be used so easily against non criminal law abiding contrarians.

          The story reminds me of Rachel Stewart and her merry go round with the Police in regards to her weapons that came courtesy of activists that use the Police to bully 'contrarians' all legally and government sanctioned.

          • Puckish Rogue

            They ripped it off the wall instead of using a key?!?!

            To me thats…I'm not sure what you call it but hopefully he takes the police to court for damages or something

            • Sabine

              Well per the article they managed to rip it of the wall, but then found a key and opened it. go figure.

              His instinct was to check if his gun was still in the safe, he said, but it had been ripped from a wall and opened using a key found in a drawer.

              The guy seems to bit of a tosser- but as far as i know we are still allowed to hold believes other then the official puree served by highly paid PR figures. This whole article describes something that I would consider as government sanctioned harassment and intimidation. And if government thinks that the police overstep its boundaries it can check its lazy law making and maybe tighten some screws so that overzealous cops will know when to stop.

              • Puckish Rogue

                So I'm guessing he wasn't there at the time because if the police want to see whats in my cabinet I'll just open it up for them

                • Sabine

                  That is exactly the point. They should have waited for him to show up, demand entry, ask about the weapons, ask a few general questions to see if he is any danger and in the end simply confiscate said weapon and ammunition on the laws provided.
                  He was and still is a law abiding citizen.

                  If this article is correct, that was incredibly stupid on the parts of the police.

      • Tricledrown 2.1.2

        He had only recently bought the gun and 500 rounds of ammunition.

        He has been showing more extreme views recently obvious to someone within the church or maybe his wife was worried.

        [RL: You are still in pre-mod until you acknowledge the requirement to gives cites or references when needed. Please acknowledge this. If not the usual practice is to turn the pre-mod into a ban.]

      • DukeEll 2.1.3

        Perfectly all right to be anti society and illegally armed, don’t dare be anti government and legally armed with one hunting rifle.

    • Gezza 2.2

      Interesting indeed.

      Appeal rights – if the police have confiscated your gun after deciding you are not a fit and proper person to possess a firearm and ammunition under the Arms Act 1983 (& revoking or suspending your firearms licence, which they haven't done yet) – are:

      Right of review of licensing decisions

      There are changes to the right of appeal section.

      The main change is if a decision is made to refuse a person a firearms licence, or to revoke a person’s firearms licence, that person may first apply to the Commissioner of Police for a review of the decision (s62). They can also appeal the decision to the District Court, provided they have first applied to the Commissioner for a review and received the Commissioner’s decision on that review (s62B(2)).


      If they do cancel his firearms licence, I shouldn't imagine he'd have much joy appealing to Police Commissioner Andy Coster. He'd probably have to take it to the District Court.

      But the article says police raided his place after they had received information “relating to concerns around an individual’s wellbeing and the likelihood the man was armed” – which suggests to me that they consider he might be mentally unstable.

      (I personally find it hard to believe he intends to "go possum shooting at some point". More likely he wants the gun for protection.)

      Hope Stuff follows up on this story. It's piqued my interest.

      • Sabine 2.2.1

        And then Rachel Stewart took the police to court and got her weapons back and yes, she is legally totally fit to own her weapons.


        Just because some calls the police to your house claiming you are mentally unstable and should not own any kitchen knifes, or guns, or other sharp objects does not mean that you are mentally unstable. You might just be a contrarian that does not sing to he official tune, and someone might be quite happy to use the Police to harras and intimidate other wise law abiding citizens, such as Rachel Stewart and this Priest.

        I would again not be surprised if this is exactly the same. Some disgruntled activist using the Police as their personal private little enforces. Btw, how is the Police doing on Gang Crime, on anti social and dangerous social housing tenants, on drink driving, etc?

        • Puckish Rogue

          You're onto it.

          Going up against a group of individuals that fight, that are physically aggressive, have numbers, have public relations people, are lawyered up, have political allies


          people like Rachel Stewart

          • bwaghorn

            Can you whiners prove the police dont go after gangs.?

            Its a fucking ridiculous argument, saying a fringe nutter should keep his guns ,because Gangs!!!

            • Puckish Rogue

              No, its saying the police can do both, at the same time.

            • woodart

              best post here bwaghorn. too many on here add one and one and get eleven. outrage is their default setting!

      • Blade 2.2.2

        ''I personally find it hard to believe he intends to "go possum shooting at some point". More likely he wants the gun for protection.''

        Yes, I would say he's received serious threats from people who are more likely to carry out violent acts than he is. The gun is probably for self protection.

        As the self defence saying goes: ''It's better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6''

        Self defence laws need overhauling, especially for Indian dairy owners who have been threatened in the past with possible prosecution for defending themselves.

        • Macro

          More likely he wants the gun for protection.''

          And you say he is a Pastor?

          38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[a] 39 But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. 40 And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well.

          Matthew 5:38-40

          • Blade

            No, I didn't say he was a pastor. Nor was he a Catholic priest ( for balance).

            The biblical verses you mention were teachings that Jesus taught to stop the innocent making karmic links with people who were doing them wrong. However, I think his teachings would have had exceptions that haven't been historically recorded for a variety of reasons.

            You are welcome to turn the other cheek to someone wanting to harm you or a loved one. I'm not.

            • Macro

              No, I didn't say he was a pastor

              And yet here

              January 2022 at 7:48 am

              your link says:


              The biblical verses you mention were teachings that Jesus taught to stop the innocent making karmic links with people who were doing them wrong.

              Exactly. Including not protecting themselves from physical violence. Just as he behaved when arrested, striped naked, flogged, and crucified.

              • Blade

                I was quoting what the article called him. I don't know if he's a pastor or a mechanic.

                ''Exactly. Including not protecting themselves from physical violence. Just as he behaved when arrested, striped naked, flogged, and crucified.''

                You forgot to quote my rider.

                ''However, I think his teachings would have had exceptions that haven't been historically recorded for a variety of reasons.''

                Now, if you are comparing the supposed pastor to the actions of Jesus, I can't argue against someone's interpretations and perceptions.

                • Gezza

                  As I understand it – at the time & place when Jesus lived, striking backhand a person of a lower class was a means of asserting authority and dominance. If the struck inferior "turned the other cheek," this is therefore seen by some Christians as a challenge. By turning the other cheek, the person struck was showing courage and demanding equality, not being a doormat.

                  • Macro

                    Yes that is one interpretation the concept of non-violent resistance to oppression. So it was a fairly radical idea then, and even now. The subsequent verse of giving your shirt and your coat as well carries the same message. While you may blush in your subsequent nakedness, you also bring shame onto the one who forces you into this situation. The sermon on the Mount (or on the Plain) – depending on whether its Matthew or Luke – contains some pretty radical stuff for its time.

            • Robert Guyton

              "The biblical verses you mention were teachings that Jesus taught to stop the innocent making karmic links with people who were doing them wrong. "

              By saying you are not willing to turn the other cheek, are you consenting to "making karmic links" with someone who might be doing you wrong?

              Just interested to know.

              • Blade

                Yes. However, we are talking degrees of wrongs. And what has, and hasn't, been left out of the bible ( in my opinion).

                • Robert Guyton

                  As a general principle, and in cases of minor harms, it seems a good policy to "absorb" the harm and bury it, karmically; revenge, equalising and the escalation that usually follows, is something to be avoided wherever possible, imo.

                  • Blade

                    Agreed. There are methods whereby you absorb the wrong (energy) into your body and transmute it into neutral energy for your advantage.

                    Taoists and Western Alchemy use such methods. No karma is produced; and the offender is giving you a free boost of energy at his expense, plus still having to carry the karmic load for his wrongs. That's true justice.

                    • Robert Guyton

                      These methods use imagination for their effectiveness?

                    • Blade

                      Yes and no. Hard to explain. First you must see/feel everything as energy. Remember what Tesla is reputed to have said:

                      ''If you want to find the secrets of the Universe, think in terms of energy, frequency and vibration.’''

                      That's very hard to do because we live in a material world…and toast is toast. Even though it's not.

                      The next thing is to have the right mindset (very very important). The last thing is to experience the results for yourself. The only part imagination plays is to kick start the process because energy follows thought. Eg,think of crime…do the crime.

                    • Robert Guyton


                      At the end of his talk, someone from the audience asked His Holiness Dalai Lama, “Why didn’t you fight back against the Chinese?” His Holiness looked down, swung his feet just a bit, then looked back up at us and said with a gentle smile,

                      “Well, war is obsolete, you know”. Then, after a few moments, his face grave, he said, “Of course the mind can rationalize fighting back…but the heart, the heart would never understand for it. Then you would be divided in yourself, the heart and the mind, and the war would be inside you.”

                      — Dalai Lama

                      SETH: "There are deeply hidden areas of human behavior far below the surface of actions, and these cause the actions. They are psychic exchanges. Before the beginning of any war, subconsciously each individual knows not only that a war will occur, but its precise outcome. Battles like other physical acts exist first in the mental realm. When this realm is peaceful there are no wars. All of your physical activities, from the political to the economic and to the most insignificant individual concerns have their origin in mental existence, and their outcome is known.

                      To create a harmonious inner existence is a positive act with far-reaching effects, and not an act of isolation. To desire peace strongly is to help achieve it. To accept war helps prolong its physical existence. These are not idle words nor are they meant symbolically."

                      —TES8 Session 337 April 26, 1967"

                  • Blade

                    Seth( I'm assuming the spirit entity that was channelled), has put it succinctly. And so has the Dali Lama. They are right. It's not for nothing South American shamans do their most important work early in the morning before the mass of humanity awakens and their astral and mental angst starts polluting the atmosphere a little more than the day before.

          • Sabine

            this is always a good one to listen too.

            TRY JESUS

            Tobe Nwigwe

            Try Jesus
            Not me
            'Cause I throw hands

            Try Jesus
            Please don't try me
            Because I fight

            I know what He said about getting slapped
            But if you touch me or mine
            We gon' have to scrap

            Try Jesus
            Please don't try me
            Because I fight

            I have no problem layin' these hands
            Try Jesus
            Don't try me
            'Cause I throw hands

            Try Jesus
            Please don't try me
            Because I fight

            Oh, He said, "Turn the other cheek"
            Oh, but that's one part of the Bible, that don't just sit right with me

            So try Jesus
            Please don't try me
            'Cause I fight

            I have no problem layin' these hands

        • woodart

          "I would say he's received serious threats from people who are more likely to carry out violent acts than he is" thats about as good as a reckon on zbshoutback . do you know this person personally blade or is this you putting your "mana" on the line again?

          • Blade

            Talking of talkback, I believe Heather Du Plessis-Allen is back this afternoon. Good solid Tory commentary. It almost makes reading your comment bearable.

    • bwaghorn 2.3

      They'd tried to contact him, and couldn't, what's the odds a angry anti vaxxer would claim hes been ransacked?

      500 rounds!! That's alot of ammo.

      Best to err on the side of caution imho.

      If he proves to not be a dangerous nutter I'm sure hell get his license back,

      • Puckish Rogue 2.3.1

        Its not really that large an amount for a .22

        'His .22 rifle had been taken, along with 500 rounds of ammunition.'


        Its only $70 or so and cheaper than buying smaller amounts

        (No I really don't think hes going out shooting possums either)

        • Graeme

          'His .22 rifle had been taken, along with 500 rounds of ammunition.'

          Well that can cover everything from a single shot .22 rimfire that you'd teach your kids to shoot rabbits with to a 223 AR that's really only got one purpose and that's not recreational hunting. (Yes you can use them for hunting but for anything other than shooting masses of goats from a chopper there's much better )

          If the guy's sitting on an AR and 500 rounds, really what's his lawful purpose.

          • Puckish Rogue

            'Well that can cover everything from a single shot .22 rimfire that you'd teach your kids to shoot rabbits with to a 223 AR that's really only got one purpose and that's not recreational hunting.'

            No thats incorrect, let me explain:

            A .22LR rimfire round assuming thats what he has and it most likely is because its the most popular ammunition in the world is very different to a .223 (or 5.56) centrefire round

            A picture speaks a thousand words so they say so here is a .22LR rimfire and a .223 centrefire side by side



            A semi auto .22 rimfire rifle with a ten round magazine is perfectly legal in NZ to own (I should know because I own one)

            Semi-auto centrefire rifles are banned for general use in NZ, you can use AR-15s for professional pest control in NZ but I'd imagine there'd be some stringent hoops to jump through.

            So if he has an AR-15 then he really is up s**t creek however I don't think it is an AR-15 type rifle because the media love to report on that type of thing

          • Sabine

            If the guy's sitting on an AR and 500 rounds, really what's his lawful purpose.

            is it illegal to do so?

            • Peter

              Of course it's not illegal.

              It's illegal if he loses his rag and kills someone or ones.

              And the man who has a gun for his own good reasons, which we infer from what he said, does that? The world would go crazy about the cops doing nothing about to stop him.

              The Christchurch Mosque murderer legally had a gun. He wasn't a mass murderer until he was. If the police had some reservations about him having a gun and entered his home and taken it?

              There are a lot of nutcases around preaching how terrible things are in the country.

              Could the hysteria and lunacy see someone who has a gun they've never used and seem to not really know why they've got it, see themselves as some sort of Pastor Rittenhouse and go out to save the world?

              Of course.

              • Puckish Rogue

                Its illegal to own a centrefire, semi auto rifle assuming thats what Graeme means by AR

              • Sabine

                So we should allow the police to go into the house of everyone and confiscate every weapon – even those locked in safes and such? Would that also include knifes, axes, saws, needles, pots n pans and such? Cause all that can be used to hurt / harm others. And when can the Police start with the Gangs? Today maybe? Or is that in the too hard and too dangerous category and thus is not ‘helpful’?

                Maybe we need a law that allows us a few blunt items – no steak knives though, just hold the steak in your hands and bite of it that should do the trick – to prepare food etc, maybe a "single use allocation" for a saw and other handy tools, like you fill out a form for the intended use, the duration of the use and when done bring it back to he local Mitre 10/Bunnings legally authorized and police certified Saw/Axe/Grinder/Machete lender, to be registered as returned and entered back into stock?

                Surely such a law can be quickly passed under urgency to protect the people of currently law abiding citizens who may or may not be tossers, but who openly don't agree with the government on all things?

                • lprent

                  Depends what he was saying in public and to other people. Having a weapon and ammo isn't unlawful if you have an firearms license. However there are a pile of responsibilities that go with it.

                  It isn't a right to 'bear arms' in NZ it is a privilege – one that can and should be withdrawn any time that someone shows even a smidgen of a lack of responsibility about their usage or intentions about usage. Read the firearms act.

                  As PR pointed out above, he can go to a internal judicial review by the head of police – who ultimately has full responsibility for the misuse of firearms, and then to court to resolve. The police making the decision have to present evidence to explain their actions and so does the person that has had their arms licence revoked or constrained.

                  Personally I'd far prefer that the police are preemptive about firearms rather than (metaphorically) winding up in a ambulance at yet another massacre.

                  His instinct was to check if his gun was still in the safe, he said, but it had been ripped from a wall and opened using a key found in a drawer.

                  His .22 rifle had been taken, along with 500 rounds of ammunition.

                  Bromley said he was given the gun only a few months ago, but wouldn’t say by whom, and said he had bought the ammunition in the last month because “things are going up in price”.

                  Explaining why he owns a weapon, Bromley said he is not a hunter but may go possum shooting at some point.

                  Just that of which sounds to me that he is entirely too casual about the responsibility of owning firearms. Doesn't matter if he is a loudmouth as well.

                  The police are likely to be aware of even moderate ammo purchases. Sellers log purchases against firearms licences because they are required to only sell ammo to firearms licence holders. Police will be checking those often these days.

                  I also have to wonder if he had had his storage looked at and approved by a firearms officer. It is required for all firearms licence holders. If he hadn't, then the police would be wondering about it.

                  One of the first questions for someone who wasn't known to have firearms and a reason to use plus who was buying ammo would be:- if he was reselling ammunition so someone who didn't have a firearms licence. Which is unlawful except in a few specified exceptions.

                  f the police received any complaint about him with some supporting evidence, then a large purchase of a ammunition from someone who (by the sounds of it) hasn't purchased ammunition previously would be of interest.

                  Overall this guy doesn't read like someone who I'd want living a few suburbs over, apparently untrained, and without any obvious reason to need to use a weapon.

                  On the face of it and without looking at any other evidence other than the news report, I'd say that the police have a good prima facie reason to search and remove. Also well within their duties with their responsibilities as our arms officers.

                  While I haven't held a firearms licence in decades, I did pest control on my parents farm, got trained in the army, and recently spent years building training systems for upgrading the skills of soldiers with their use of weapons.

                  I don't like people being casual around firearms. I know of entirely too many ways that can end badly.

                  • left for dead

                    Iprent just to be clear,500 rounds otherwise known "as A Brick" is the most econonical way to purchase .22 ammo of this type.

                    • lprent

                      Marginally economical per round. FFS looking at the most popular .22LR at Gun City Penrose

                      CCI .22LR Stinger 32gr Copper Plated Hollow Point 1640fps
                      50 rounds = $21.99
                      500 rounds = $199.00

                      Nett bulk saving is $20.90 buying 10×50 vs buying 50 rounds or about 4.2c per round.

                      I suppose he could have gotten a cheap value pack of about 500 subsonic rounds, which usually retail at something like $70-80. Great if you want to learn how to clean the weapon and what drop looks like.

                      For someone who'd apparently just gotten a 0.22 given to him. It just seems weird when he didn't seem to know what he'd gotten it for. I'd have thought that the message should have penetrated even the thickest of people that having a firearm is fraught with responsibilities, and there are lot of people (including the police) intent on making sure the irresponsible idiots don't play with them.

              • Drowsy M. Kram

                yes The day the 'balance' in NZ tips to a point where frontline police and/or the general public don't feel 'safe/safer' unless they carry/own a gun is not a good day, imho – are we there yet? If the answer to a problem is "more guns" then we have a real problem, because guns make it easier to kill people.

                Adult gun enthusiasts (law-abiding or not) puzzle me, just as my enthusiasm for more progressive and less rortable taxation systems puzzles some here.

                • Puckish Rogue

                  'Adult gun enthusiasts (law-abiding or not) puzzle me'

                  What, to you, constitutes a gun enthusiast?

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    To me, "a gun enthusiast" is a person filled with enthusiasm for (owing/using/viewing) guns. Some, but not necessarily all gun enthusiasts might become ardently absorbed in their gun interests or hobbies, possibly even to the extent of encouraging others of all ages to share in their interests.

                    Definition of enthusiast
                    : a person filled with enthusiasm: such as

                    a : one who is ardently attached to a cause, object, or pursuit
                    // a sports car enthusiast
                    b : one who tends to become ardently absorbed in an interest

                    Don't think that there is anything intrinsically wrong with enthusiasm for guns (as long as it's a healthy), although the appeal eludes me.

                    I would be interested in trying to understand the appeal of private gun ownership, which seems to have moderately strong hold on some. After all, we live in a relatively safe society. One way to change that, imho, would be to increase private gun ownership above the current 7 – 8% (350,000 – 400,l000) level, imho.



                    • Puckish Rogue

                      While I can appreciate the time and effort (and money) that goes into restoring old cars its not that something that appeals to me

                      But for me personally firearms are fun and the combination of human, rifle and round all working in synch to hit the target just appeals to me

                      Target shooting is great fun and can be as cheap (air rifle) or expensive (.50 cal) as you like

                      I don't own a shotgun (yet) but clay bird shooting is something I do every now and then and seeing the disc shatter is a good feeling.

                      I like using my .22 down at the range (must rejoin the range), getting it set up and popping off at 50 meters and cheaper than using my 7mm08 rifle

                      To me its similar to archery, darts, shooting hoops or throwing a stone at a tree

                      You aim, you shoot, you hit where you aim = fun and entertainment

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    But for me personally firearms are fun and the combination of human, rifle and round all working in synch to hit the target just appeals to me

                    First-person shooter video games may appeal for similar reasons – a combination of human, computer and mouse/controller all working in synch to hit a target. Each to their own – can't imagine a situation in my life that would require firearm skills, although I did enjoy firing rubbish into the bin – missing not so much.

                    Other activities have greater appeal to me – find your own best path.

                    The Aesthetics Of First-Person Shooter Video Games [20 November 2012]

                    Why Gamers Can’t Stop Playing First-Person Shooters [25 Novvember 2013]

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      'can't imagine a situation in my life that would require firearm skills'

                      Sometimes its just fun, doing something because you like it and not because its a skill or anything. Something frivolous.

                      I also enjoy video games but the only first person shooter I liked was the original Halo game because the story was just so compelling

                      I'm more of a of Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Saints Row type of guy.

                      I think because a real rifle in the hand is just better than sprites on a screen

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    The puzzle remains (for me) – why might some people find a real rifle in the hand fun and just better than other pastimes. Is there a nuture (environmental) component, or is it mostly down to nature, i.e. you were always going to be attracted to target shooting as a pastime.

                    I'm all in favour of diversity, and would be concerned if NZ society was moving in directions that gave more people cause to acquire and/or use gun(s), simply because I believe that more guns in private ownership, and normalising gun use, are undesirable trends. Just a personal opinion, based on the possibly erroneous idea that as the number of guns and gun users in a community increases, so does the (admittedly very remote) chance that I will be shot.

                    Associations between men’s and women’s conformity to masculine role norms and firearm ownership: Contributions beyond, race, gender, and political ideology. [2021, in Psychology of Men & Masculinities]
                    A negative binomial regression revealed that firearm ownership was best explained by a combination of being White, a man, politically conservative, and reporting more conformity to masculine role norms emphasizing violence, risk taking, and power over women, as well as (for women only) less conformity to playboy norms. These results suggest that owning a firearm may be a behavioral manifestation of a broader traditional gender role identity.

                    Firearm Instrumentality: Do Guns Make Violent Situations More Lethal? [14 Sept 2020]
                    Studies on the lethality of guns, the likelihood of injury by weapon type, offender intent, and firearm availability provide considerable evidence that guns contribute to fatalities that would otherwise have been nonfatal assaults. The increasing lethality of guns, based on size and technology, and identifiable gaps in existing gun control policies mean that new and innovative policy interventions are required to reduce firearm fatalities and to alleviate the substantial economic and social costs associated with gun violence.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      "why might some people find a real rifle in the hand fun and just better than other pastimes."

                      Is it just firearms or any pastime in general?

                      For instance substitute firearms for stock car racing and would you feel the same.

                      'Is there a nuture (environmental) component, or is it mostly down to nature, i.e. you were always going to be attracted to target shooting as a pastime.'

                      Again just speaking for myself but I had virtually no experiences with firearms growing up.

                      I enlisted in the army more out of having nothing better to do at the time.

                      Mind you I do love action movies and will happily ramble on about them at a drop of a hat (especially Predator and Aliens)

                      I do think the nature is a more likely aspect, for me anyway.

                      I remember playing branding at school (basically tag with tennis balls) so hand eye coordination plus hitting a target

                      got bored at work so me and my mate throw stones at a target to see who'd win.

                      Got bored in East Timor so practised free throws (my best was 8/10 after a couple of days)

                      I think a lot of people like aiming at things and seeing if they can hit them and firearms are a natural extension of that.

                      But thats just me

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    "why might some people find a real rifle in the hand fun and just better than other pastimes."

                    Is it just firearms or any pastime in general?

                    For instance substitute firearms for stock car racing and would you feel the same.

                    Might not be understanding your question. If you're asking would I be puzzled about why some people find stock car racing fun and just better than other pastimes, then yes, I am also be puzzled by that.

                    But I wouldn't really care if stock car racing became a more common pastime – the increased noise and carbon emissions might give me pause, but racing doesn’t give me real concerns for my safety.

                    And thanks for that explanation of the personal appeal of 'target-related activities' – makes sense. I remember (as a kid) occasionally chucking stones at inanimate targets, typically as part of a group activity, and enjoying that even though I wasn't crash hot. Guess I sorta grew out of it – found other things that were more enjoyable and that I was better at (there’s probably a correlation).

                    Still can't help feeling uneasy about the possibility of increased 'casual' gun use in NZ. Imho a loaded gun it something to be feared, not fondled, but (as you rightly observe) we're all different.

                    • Puckish Rogue

                      There's something approximately like a death a day on our roads

                      You're more likely to be killed while driving

                      Drunk drivers, inattentive drivers, speeding drivers, untrained and unlicensed drivers

                      All more likely to kill you than some random person with a firearm

                  • Drowsy M. Kram

                    You’re more likely to be killed while driving

                    Unlikely – I don't drive, nor do I belong to a minority faith community.

      • Sabine 2.3.2

        Many years ago a took a Cop to the IPCA. I too got calls from a private number that I disregarded.

        I got a full apology, written and in person from that cops boss – for harrasment, stalking, and just plain unprofessional behaviour, threats of unwarranted legal actions and arrest at my work place. . Just saying. Maybe Cops should not use private numbers when calling people, unless it is now a crime to not answer every call that comes to your phone?

        Ripping a save of a wall should count as 'rampage' considering that they could also have shown up personally, knock on the door, and have a chat. And is it illegal to own 500 rounds? Is there a limit to what one can own?

        If not, i can see the Police again send someone to offer excuses, and even pay to replace a safe and fix what ever damage was done.

        • I Feel Love

          Part of the responsibility of being a legal gun owner is being visited by the police.

          • Sabine

            You would think that happens before you get the lisence.

            • bwaghorn

              Because it's not possible that hes gone troppo since he got his license?

              • Sabine

                well if it was just recently, would you then also assume that hte police did not do due diligence and missed him going 'troppo'? And if that is the case, you need to get hold of a terrorism law, and break and enter the dwelling of a law abiding citizen, and then break open a safe – because you could not find the weapon anywhere (telling me his a safety conscious gun owner) and then upon finding the gun declare victory?

                Sure, he totally could have gone 'troppo' since. maybe after he complaint to the police about threats he received that were responded to with "We are too busy". You did see that part at the end of the article, yes?

                Popcorn, my internet friend, pass the popcorn.

                • adam

                  Nicely said Sabine. All your comments on this thread.

                  The Rachel Stewart comparison is just to striking to be ignored.

          • Puckish Rogue

            I've got a licence and I was visited by the police but you know what they didn't do?

            Break into my house, wreck my cabinet and cause damage to my walls

            • adam

              Well said Puckish, all your above comments.

              Frankly this whole issue could have been handled much better.

    • Sabine 3.1

      Anyone who is not totally buried in the myth of the current – all is well bullshit from the US coming out of the white house and d-shop – knows that the US is a cinder block waiting to explode. Heck the people in the US know it.

    • Adrian Thornton 3.2

      Of course, because we are all mature political observers here on TS, we all understand that the 'great divide' in US politics and society is itself fueled just as relentlessly by these same Liberal news outlets who pretend to somehow float above it, as it is by any right wing press….

      99% of modern main stream liberal press have no asserted moral high ground over any rightwing press, and deserve none, they are just as divisive, destructive and in case you haven't noticed spew out the same pro war western imperialist lies and propaganda. It should go without saying that without doubt that these liberal news outlets (like The Guardian) are more effective enemies of any serious progressive Left wing movement than the right wing media could have ever have dreamt of being.

    • Anne 3.3

      I don’t have the time to read all of the first link, but this paragraph seems to sum up the US situation:

      The United States today is, once again, headed for civil war, and, once again, it cannot bear to face it. The political problems are both structural and immediate, the crisis both longstanding and accelerating. The American political system has become so overwhelmed by anger that even the most basic tasks of government are increasingly impossible.

      A good broad summation. Anyone who has been around on this planet for a good few decades would surely recognise the wisdom of those words. It's been brewing since the start of the Cold War years when US manufactured paranoia saw many thousands of innocent US citizens – and elsewhere – disenfranchised because they dared question the wisdom of their overly-indulged Cold War mentality.

      Sadly, its been downhill ever since but, as has been acknowledged, they can't and won't see it.

      • Macro 3.3.1

        Very good response Anne. The situation in the US today is pretty dire politically.I don't know where other commentators above get their ideas from that the Democrats are all happy and think everything is sweet. One only has to look at the current plea by Senate majority leader Chuck Schumer to push for the Voting Rights Bill


        key points of which are:

        • The next month in the Senate will shape whether Democrats can pass a voting-rights bill before the 2022 midterm elections.
        • If Republicans block a Democratic-backed elections plan this month, the Senate will debate potential changes to filibuster rules, Majority Leader Chuck Schumer said.
        • Many Democrats have made voting rights a priority as states push restrictive elections laws and the U.S. approaches the one-year anniversary of the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

        The Freedom to Vote Act can be read in full here:


        It's intended purpose:

        To expand Americans’ access to the ballot box and reduce the influence of big money in politics, and for other purposes.

        Frankly despite Manchin being a signatory to the Bill I don't hold out much hope for its passing as he could well be the one who sends it to the the dustbin of political history. The result will be a far more repressive regime for voting rights in red wing states enshrining the continuation of government by the minority.

  3. Adrian Thornton 4

    Just how low can the BBC go?…well how about inviting friend of Jeffrey Epstein and accused sex offender Alan Dershowitz on to comment on the Ghislaine Maxwell Verdict FFS….

    Here is one from the archives to cleanse the palette a little…though keep in mind this public humiliation of Dershowitz cost Norman Finkelstein his career…

    Norman Finkelstein VS Alan Dershowitz

    American Radical: The Trials of Norman Finkelstein


    • Sabine 4.1

      But he only got one massage and he stayed fully clothed. And he is a constitutional lawyer. And he is a teacher at a fancy million dollar 'elite' university. Don't you think it is funny that the only one who will see the inside of a prison for this mess is a non male. Lol. Public entertainment, here have a drink, some chips, get saturated peasants.

    • weston 4.2

      Wow great debate nice to see a younger amy goodman and the impromtu kinda studio setup amy,s gestures for example to turn the sound down an dershowitz,s gesture to get a drink of water love it everythings so damn perfect in studios these days an so damn boring !Thanks for that adrian .On the show trial itself the whole thing makes me sick especially the part that millions of americans applaud the putting of a woman in prison for sixty years as if thats gonna change something !

      • Bill 4.2.1

        as if thats gonna change something !

        Well. They're probably breathing slightly easier at NATO H.Q. "Funny" how everyone seemed to forget 1990s Belgium and so didn't look for any 'threads' through time….

        • weston

          No idea what your alluding to there bill but if you feel like elaborating ?

          • Bill

            In the 1990s there was a huge child sex ring scandal in Belgium. Initially, protests brought the country to a standstill. But over time, the victims speaking up were vilified and everything got swept under the carpet.

            One of the children (much later) was the subject of a BBC doc that used to be available on youtube. An enlightening watch.

            Many orgs. located in Belgium, including NATO.

  4. Puckish Rogue 6

    Cricket, cricket, cricket!

    Ok so the test isn't going as well as expected unless you're from Bangladesh then its going not too bad at all, just imagine if one of the premier all rounders playing today were playing (Shakib Al Hasa, 40 with the bat and 31 with the ball)

    However I'm going to predict that the Boss will help salvage a draw.

    So why is this happening, because Kane isn't playing?

    No, of all the decisions Kane not playing has, imho, the least effect on the game.

    I'll start with the biggest and that is the retirement of BJ Watling. BJ is not only NZs greatest wicketkeeper/batter (by a country mile) he would also walk into most of other teams of any era

    He averages (I'm rounding) overall 38 with the bat but that jumps to 42 (with a high of 205) at the number 6 position and this is the key.

    BJ is top six batter, historically wicketkeeper/batters were number 7 or down but because BJ also fulfils a role as a top order batter that means theres an extra space for a a bowler, a batter who bowls a bit, a bowler who bats a bit, a bits and pieces type bowler etc

    Or the ability to play 4 medium-fast to fast-medium bowlers

    BJs gone and it looks like Blundell is struggling. I don't want the Blackcaps to go back to throwing players on the scrap heap but Blundell looks like (for now) he's too high at 6 and needs to go down the order to 7 or 8

    The other issue we have (and this is harder) is that we have no genuine all rounders. Chris Cairns averaged 43 batting at the number 7 position and averaged 29 with the ball. Dan Vettori averaged 40 with the bat at number 8 and averaged 34 with the ball

    At the moment we have bowlers who can bat a bit and batters who can bowl a bit but no balance.

    Ravindra is a very good, young player and will no doubt become a NZ great in time but to use him as the spin option is to do him a disservice (I do approve batting him down the order though) as his FC bowling stats are nothing to write home about.

    So we need to have a spinner in the team, and show faith in that spinner, can anyone think of a spinner thats doing pretty good at the moment..?

    But to fit Patel in and because BJs retired one of the big four bowlers would need to be dropped to make way for Patel, first headache.

    Second headache is the batting is looking fragile, Blundell needs to go lower in the order whichs means, unfortunately, Ravindra has to go as theres just no place for him, at the moment, plus hes young. So here is, imho, the strongest all round team NZ can put out for the next test.

    1. Latham

    2. Young

    3. Conway

    4. Taylor

    5. Nicholls

    6. Mitchell

    7. Blundell

    8. Jamieson

    9. Wagner

    10. Boult

    11. Patel

    Tim Southee draws the short straw but we also need to rest and rotate our bowlers. I'm still not happy in that I think Jamieson is batting too high

    The other thing NZ has to do is start preparing pitches that offer a little to our spinners

    • Sabine 6.1

      Do they go to morning tea, lunch and afternoon tea? Do they wear well knitted white jumpers? Do people still inspect the pitch?

      • Puckish Rogue 6.1.1

        I wouldn't be wearing a jumper today, its a bit warm but its good to follow traditions…some of them wink

      • tsmithfield 6.1.2

        Things aren't looking good, and we could well get cleaned out quickly and give Bangladesh a token run chase.

        But, if we could get 150 ahead, things could get interesting:

        Firstly, their opening batsman, Joy, has his arm in a sling with split webbing on his hand, so they are effectively one batsman down already.

        Having to re-gig the opening role could make them vulnerable to a collapse.

        And, the pitch is getting a lot more variable, so could be difficult for them to bat last.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Test cricket is always number 1 although I would like to see a removal of the toss. The visiting team chooses to bat or field.

          • Anker

            That's an interesting idea PR. Visiting team, who are at a disadvantage for all sorts of reasons get to decide whether they bat or bowl first.

            Well done Bangladesh! They deserved the win…..

            Good bowling at the end from the BCs. Well be back!

            • Puckish Rogue

              What it might do is make the pitches a bit more even, a bit of something for everyone.

              It got me thinking during the T20 world cup what a huge, massive advantage winning the toss was and how unfair it is that luck has such a big determining factor in the game.

              Yes we will, payback begins in Christchurch!

    • Tricledrown 6.2


      [Tricledrown, you’re in premod until you respond to moderation. I’m letting this one through to tell you, but I’ve deleted your content. Please go here and respond https://thestandard.org.nz/bad-covid-takes/#comment-1845599 – weka]

      • weka 6.2.1

        mod note. I’ll be pushing this to the ban list soon. We’ve been here many times before Tricledrown, you *have to check the Replies to see if there is a moderation.

    • Yes Puckish all power to the Bangladeshis. I think they will take this test out, though Ravindra was batting well last night.

      I'm not sure about Mitchell. More of a one-day player perhaps. He has 1-142 in his test bowling to date.

      Agree about BJ-not only was he a fine keeper and batsman, he also got fought to get runs when conditions were tough. People always remember Brendon's 302, but I watched every ball as BJ and Brendon put on 352 to take NZ from a hopeless position at 94-5 to 446-6. (BJ 124).

      • Puckish Rogue 6.3.1

        I'm looking at Mitchell as a containing bowler, build the pressure at one end with maidens and let the other bowlers attack and take the wickets.

        However in 7 test innings hes got one 100 and two 50s plus hes 30 so been around a bit

        Yeah BJ should always been in the frame for best wicketkeeper/batters of all time.

  5. Peter 7

    If it were rugby the main focus would be on chucking the coach out. Respect for the ability of the other team and how they played wouldn't come into it.

    Home conditions, home circumstances and not performing anywhere near max against far lower ranked opposition would have had everyone going berserk.

    • Puckish Rogue 7.1

      The coaching staff is very, very good. World test champions, well beaten finalist in the T20, unluckily beaten in the 50 over world cup is something that may not be done again for a very long time.

      But it doesn't mean they're infallible.

    • Descendant Of Smith 7.2

      "If it were rugby the main focus would be on chucking the coach out."

      Except that they didn't – he is still there.

  6. Anker 8
    • Huh! I queried bringing Patel in on you last cricket column…..
    • interesting analysis that the team are missing BJ……makes sense. Could Latham be wicket keeper?
    • I must sayBangladesh do deserve to win this and I would be pleased for them.
    • but for me, win or lose, the Black Caps can do no wrong. Love the boys
    • Puckish Rogue 8.1

      'Huh! I queried bringing Patel in on you last cricket column…..'

      I think that unless there extenuating circumstances you should always have a spinner in the time but the NZ bowling attack has been going very well however I'm also man enough to admit when I'm wrong

      I'm wrong and Patel should always be in the team unless there is absolutely no chance of any assistance at all in the pitch

      'Interesting analysis that the team are missing BJ……makes sense. Could Latham be wicket keeper?'

      I'm old school in that, to me, the wicketkeeper should be good, very good.

      If catches win matches then I'd rather have a wicketkeeper that takes his chances and maybe doesn't bat as well than a wicketkeeper that bats well but may put down a couple more chances over the entire test.

      Captaining, opening and keeping is a pretty big ask for anyone

      'I must sayBangladesh do deserve to win this and I would be pleased for them.'

      They haven't won yet angel

      'But for me, win or lose, the Black Caps can do no wrong. Love the boys'


      • Bearded Git 8.1.1

        Always play your best keeper-England have discovered that in the current Ashes tests.

        • Puckish Rogue

          Yeah your keeper might score some runs but if he misses three chances over two innings then how much worse off are you…

      • dv 8.1.2

        Well one wkt to go lead 31.

        Good to see the nz batting coach had a plan for today.!!!!!

        • alwyn

          And I thought I was a pessimist when I thought they would be all out for 217 in yesterday's daily review.

  7. Puckish Rogue 9

    Well shit…

    • Puckish Rogue 10.1

      Good on him.

      The Lord of the Rings is the best trilogy ever put to screen so he deserves everything hes got, although I understand why some might not like the movies.

      The Hobbit should have only been one film, maybe two at the very most but even so when the TV series comes out it'll show exactly how impressive The Lord of the Rings really was

      Why there was no 20 year anniversary release is beyond me

  8. Sabine 11

    and like the dude in Norway, this dude should also NOT go to prison.

    He may be a truly abhorrent person, but these are his private ideas, his own believes and rather then send complaints the people in attendance of his speech should have simply boo'ed him down, publicly.


    we need to get a grip on this.

    • Anker 11.1

      Couldn't agree more Sabine (about the surgeon being sent to prison). His views are abhorant to me, but better out in the open than sent underground.

      It seems like he expressed these views at a lecture, so a matter for the university or his professional body.

      Most people would say what a sexist dick and be done with it. Or fair enough complain to his professional body.

  9. Jenny how to get there 12

    Citing a biased media, Trump cancels his planned press conference on the anniversary of the storming of the US Capitol by his supporters. Promising to air his grievances on the result of the 2020 election at a later public rally on the 15th of Jan.

    Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America

    In light of the total bias and dishonesty of the January 6th Unselect Committee of Democrats, two failed Republicans, and the Fake News Media, I am canceling the January 6th Press Conference at Mar-a-Lago on Thursday, and instead will discuss many of those important topics at my rally on Saturday, January 15th, in Arizona……


    • Pete 12.1

      Classic Trump: "In light of the total bias and dishonesty of the January 6th Unselect Committee of Democrats, two failed Republicans, and the Fake News Media…"

      His hordes of doting, manipulable clods will remain in awe of the intellectual giant.

    • Jenny how to get there 12.2

      In his signature garbled delivery Trump, in his statement announcing the cancellation of his planned January 6 press conference, says the January 6 Select Committee should not investigate his supporters violent storming of the US Capitol. Instead the Select Committee should be investigating, "the Crime of the Century" The 'Crime of the Century', according to Trump, is his oft repeatedly stated, but provenly false accusation, that the 2020 presidential election was stolen by the Democrats.

      Trump CANCELS Jan. 6 Presser at Mar-a-Lago
      Caleb Howe 12 mins ago

      "…..the fraud of the 2020 Presidential Election, not the primary topic of the Unselect Committee’s investigation? This was, indeed, the Crime of the Century.

      I look forward to seeing our Great American patriots in Arizona next weekend for a big rally to Save America!

      We will have to wait to see, whether the January 15 rally will be a further incitement by Trump of his supporters to attack US democracy.

  10. Pete 13

    I often read of prisoners not getting parole because they won't admit guilt for the crime they've been imprisoned for. I wonder about saying you didn't do it for the simple reason that you didn't do it.

    I regularly see people opining about the death penalty and the fact it should be used more. I regularly see of cases in the USA similar to one in the news today.

    'US man freed from prison 37 years after witness lied and took police bribe of drugs and sex'


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