Open Mike 07/05/2017

130 comments on “Open Mike 07/05/2017 ”

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1. James 1

   7 May 2017 at 8:22 am

   https://www.newsroom.co.nz/2017/05/01/23499/dont-mind-the-list-labour-has-bigger-issues-to-handle

   Labours main problem is andrew little according to newsroom.

   Republished in stuff
   • Robert Guyton 1.1

     7 May 2017 at 8:47 am

     According to the newsroom. Republished in stuff. Pounced-upon by the Little-obsessed James and shoved into into the faces of Labour supporters for the sly pleasure of a confidence-troll who revels in creating discomfort and division. All on a Sunday morning, early, when thoughtful, kindly people least expect such miserly-of-spirit behaviour.
     • James 1.1.1

       7 May 2017 at 9:09 am

       you have a go at the poster not the article- simply because you know it’s true.

       And I would never describe you as thoughtful or kindly. Enjoy your Sunday.
       • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1

         7 May 2017 at 9:17 am

         James, your nit-picky, boringly repetitiousness snipes at Andrew Little are dull enough on a week day, but please spare us those on beautiful Sundays like this one. Get outside, James, let the sun wash away your bitterness. Breath some fresh air and think of someone other than yourself and Andy.
         • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 9:32 am

           For a long, long time the current deputy has been the preferred Labour leader of those on the Right….why is this?

           Just the other day Farrar’s Ferals were delighting in a Little hate session, magnifying his deficits and promoting his deputy as the de facto Boss.

           There’s something about Little that the Right really, really dislikes.

           Good thing, no?
           • Foreign waka 1.1.1.1.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 10:06 am

             Could it be that the right doesn’t like him because he was a Union leader?
           • Wainwright 1.1.1.1.1.2

             7 May 2017 at 10:39 am

             They’ve always “loved” whoever the deputy is, because they want to make people worriedf about leadership instability. If Little were deputy they’d love him too. It’s a transparent tactic.
             • greywarshark …

               7 May 2017 at 11:36 am

               Wainwright
               I hadn’t caught onto that tactic, but I feel sure you are right.
             • Antoine …

               7 May 2017 at 12:44 pm

               I don’t know about ‘always’, but yes, when the right supports Jacintda it’s all about undermining Little.

               A.
           • James 1.1.1.1.1.3

             7 May 2017 at 11:36 am

             According to polls – its more than the right that do not like him.
           • Tamati Tautuhi 1.1.1.1.1.4

             7 May 2017 at 4:34 pm

             They can see he has substance and some spine and they don’t like it, basically nasty little trolls at work ?
         • James 1.1.1.1.2

           7 May 2017 at 11:43 am

           “your nit-picky, boringly repetitiousness snipes at Andrew Little …”

           In fairness he gives so much material.
           • Robert Guyton 1.1.1.1.2.1

             7 May 2017 at 11:50 am

             Loving your contribution to the discussion today, James. Having a snippy critic of Andrew Little expose your churlisness so early in the piece gave all of us a chance to show our support for the Labour leader; an opportunity we mightn’t have taken, but for the opportunity you so thoughtfully presented.
             Keep up the sterling work. Never let your tightness of spirit ease, you’re one of our best assets here on TS.
             • James …

               7 May 2017 at 12:38 pm

               Indeed. You think he’s great – media seem to think he’s the problem.

               But at the end of the day news postings about how he is the problem will have more of an impact as opposed to a few people on a blog that are generally all voting left anyway.
               • Robert Guyton …

                 7 May 2017 at 1:07 pm

                 Media.

                 Lordy.
           • The decrypter 1.1.1.1.2.2

             7 May 2017 at 12:03 pm

             Good drying weather up here in the North.
           • Rosemary McDonald 1.1.1.1.2.3

             7 May 2017 at 12:45 pm

             In fairness his surname could be his biggest handicap…words being soooo important, as we were all educated about (ad bloody nauseum) here on TS yesterday….

             Too late for Deed Poll…?
     • tuppence shrewsbury 1.1.2

       7 May 2017 at 9:23 am

       Playing the man not the ball. Straight out of the labour play book since before the end of the Clark government. Notice a trend guyton?
       • One Anonymous Bloke 1.1.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 9:34 am

         Most of Robert’s remarks are aimed at James’ behaviour, hence, not “playing the man”.

         As for playbooks, you sound like a “screaming conspiracy theorist” to me.
       • Robert Guyton 1.1.2.2

         7 May 2017 at 9:59 am

         not give (a) tuppence
         To not care in the slightest (about something or someone). ” I know that James has a crush on me, but to be honest I couldn’t give tuppence for him.”

         http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wouldn%27t+give+tuppence
         • James 1.1.2.2.1

           7 May 2017 at 11:41 am

           If you do a bit of a search I think you will find you go around replying (and generally trying to insult on a lot of post I make) – not the other way around- so I think that it’s you that has the crush on me.

           I’m not that way inclined- but if I was I would like to think I could do better than you. 🙂
       • Draco T Bastard 1.1.2.3

         7 May 2017 at 10:58 am

         Strange, I could have sworn that was James engaged in and that we see it from the RWNJs all the bloody time.
     • greywarshark 1.1.3

       7 May 2017 at 11:34 am

       Hi Robert
       You express the situation well. And I hope that you all are well down there. Getting colder eh.
       • Robert Guyton 1.1.3.1

         7 May 2017 at 11:56 am

         Hi Grey
         All is well here, in fact, the day is gloriously fine and sunny (and warm!) All my whanau are here today; sons and daughters, grandsons and granddaughters, most helping with a shared project involving canvas and ropes, poles and pegs 🙂
         • greywarshark 1.1.3.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 12:24 pm

           Robert
           Is it a guessing contest? Is it a yurt?
           • Robert Guyton 1.1.3.1.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 1:06 pm

             Ger. You get the cigar.
         • Peter 1.1.3.1.2

           7 May 2017 at 2:57 pm

           You must following Nationals housing plan
   • saveNZ 1.2

     7 May 2017 at 8:50 am

     Hearing that for a while now from MSM against Labour. Yep, problems with Cunliffe, problems with Shearer, problems with Goff. Helen Clark has to go.. Of course Little is terrible too, from the MSM and not so M, SM sites.

     Granny’s sister sites might get more readership if they actually print real news and if they want to talk politics about the 9 year legacy of the Natz as well as the failed neoliberal ideology of English. Since they are just an echo chamber from the centre right discourses they have no credibility.
     • Jenny Kirk 1.2.1

       7 May 2017 at 9:11 am

       Try reading this instead – a more accurate view of Andrew Little and his leadership .

       FRIDAY, 5 MAY 2017
       Telling The Story Of Labour’s List Differently.

       All Good: As a result of Little’s recruitment of Jackson, Labour’s ability to attract Maori support has been enhanced. And, thanks to Labour’s List Moderating Committee, New Zealand will soon be appreciating the contributions of Priyanca Radhakrishnan, Jan Tinetti, Willow-Jean Prime and Kiri Allan.

       http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/
       • Wainwright 1.2.1.1

         7 May 2017 at 10:42 am

         Chris is getting his lines from McCarten. Not exactly “accurate” from the perspecrtive of anyone who realy supports Labour values. Labour already got plenty of Maori support thanks to (demoted) MPs like Mahuta. People should stop crying triumph for Jackson until he proves himself.
         • greywarshark 1.2.1.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 11:46 am

           Wainwright
           You make assertions, and I don’t think this one is right. Of course Trotter should listen to McCarten as he listens across the spectrum.

           Also he will sometimes do a scenario piece of what might happen which doesn’t follow from an embedded viewpoint. So he can surprise, seem certainly left, centre, or right in particular posts.

           I hope your ideas are not too embedded to enable you to correctly judge and make your pronouncements. Anyone who is absolutely certain they are correct all the time is someone to be wary of. I hope you aren’t here just to affirm your preconceptions.
           • Wainwright 1.2.1.1.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 11:16 pm

             Tha’ts a very nice little lecture, grey. Doesn’t cahnge the fact Chris has been talking complete bollocks for years, changes his spots on a weekly basis to try to look relevant, and gets all his good gossip from the Galbraith’s happy hour crew. If you want to give anyone a growling for ’embedded ideas’ why not Jenny, whose idea of ‘accuracy’ is based on ‘things that Jenny agrees with because she thinks th eLabour Party never does any wrong’?
             • greywarshark …

               8 May 2017 at 10:42 am

               Thank goodness that chris Trotter does try on different coats, think around his subjects, or we would get the same old thinking and assertions all the time from people whose minds have rusted over.
         • red-blooded 1.2.1.1.2

           7 May 2017 at 12:48 pm

           Chris Trotter has regularly been critical of Labour in recent years, and he doesn’t get “fed” lines. He’s not a favourite commenter of mine, but in this case I think he’s got a point. Labour’s list is actually pretty damn impressive and Little has shown some canny judgement in terms of Jackson. I admit that I was somewhat taken aback when his candidacy was announced, but then I’m not one of the people who’s being targeted by this move and I do acknowledge that Jackson would have added considerably to the Māori Party’s fire-power.
           • Wainwright 1.2.1.1.2.1

             7 May 2017 at 11:18 pm

             Canny judgment? You mean pissing off a helluva lot of people when he announced Jackson would be at the top of the list, then pissing of Jackson by not putting him at the top of the list? Those headlines have been great for Labour. And once again the hard work and loyalty of actual Maori MPs gets shafted for one of McCarten’s old Alliance buddies. You guys aren’t selling this very well.
       • Draco T Bastard 1.2.1.2

         7 May 2017 at 10:59 am

         Actuall link
   • Tautoko Mangō Mata 1.3

     7 May 2017 at 10:19 am

     James doesn’t like the fact that Andrew Little speaks with integrity and honesty and it worries him that people might just start analysing WHAT is being said instead of THE WAY it is said. The performing snake oil salesman has vanished without trace and people are starting to wake up that he was simply an illusionist. People also see how Trump got voted in the US and that entertaining attention-seeking is not the defining quality for a good leader.
     • Draco T Bastard 1.3.1

       7 May 2017 at 11:08 am

       People also see how Trump got voted in the US and that entertaining attention-seeking is not the defining quality for a good leader.

       Seems to work for the RWNJs who really don’t seem to read up on what policies will actually do and just go on the shallow, feel good sound bites of such leaders.
   • Ad 1.4

     7 May 2017 at 10:47 am

     LIttle is boring. Sure.

     But I try the Prime Minister test:
     Little will be a more just and inclusive Prime Minister than Bill English.
     Little will also be braver, less technocratic Prime Minister, because the expectations and momentum are so high upon him.

     Even after his first term, I’m also confident of this: Andrew Little will not lie.
     Put “will not lie” in a sentence with Bill English and you will choke on your Weetbix.

     And as Prime Minister, LIttle will have earned it not inherited it.

     I could not say that of Bill English. Which is why I already respect Little more.
     • Reality 1.4.1

       7 May 2017 at 11:20 am

       Andrew Little takes his role seriously, unlike John Key, who wanted to be a creepy clown half the time. So Andrew Little is not going to be all jokey about important issues facing the country. He is true to himself.

       Bill English – not exactly oozing charm and personality, if that is what you are looking for James. Have you been taking notes on how the operatives from Dirty Politics went about their “work”? Horrible people – who would want them as a friend, neighbour, relative?
     • Antoine 1.4.2

       7 May 2017 at 12:49 pm

       The problem I have with Little is that he seems to have poor judgement. From time to time he opens his mouth and weird stuff comes out, without apparently having passed through his brain en route. I regard this as a problematic quality in a PM.

       I’m sure he’s a good dude and is sincere and hard working.

       A.
       • Incognito 1.4.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 2:02 pm

         It appears to be good enough for POTUS and let’s not even go to the obfuscating language and semantic back flips by John Key, for example. But obviously it is o.k. to have double standards for some but not for others …

         Sure, Andrew Little and the Labour Party good do better in the PR department, etc., but what really counts is the policies and what they actually achieve once in Government.
         • Antoine 1.4.2.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 11:39 pm

           I wasn’t defending Trump!!
2. James 2

   7 May 2017 at 8:31 am

   A while back there was a post about a woman who was being released from jail on compassionate grounds due to cancer.

   If I think back – I may have been in the “do the crime – do the time” camp.

   Well she’s in the press again with her final interview.

   Its sobering reading – having read it – I have no doubt that my original view of the situation was wrong and that the right decision was made for this lady. You couldn’t wish this on anybody.

   http://i.stuff.co.nz/national/health/92290197/allowed-home-from-prison-to-spend-her-last-days-with-her-family-vicki-letele-gives-her-final-interview
   • Anne 2.1

     7 May 2017 at 9:01 am

     That’s the trouble with you righties. You can’t recognise a true story when you see it. Everything is coloured by your tunnel-visioned view of anyone who isn’t the same as yourselves, or who have made some mistakes in their past life. They are to be punished for the rest of their lives.

     I will give you full credit though for having the nous to fess up you were wrong.
     • James 2.1.1

       7 May 2017 at 9:05 am

       If you think those views are exclusively for righties – you would be wrong. There are plenty of lefties that think that way as well.

       But hey – everyone needs to step back and revisit their positions from time to time.
       • Anne 2.1.1.1

         7 May 2017 at 10:25 am

         Sorry James. I worded that very badly. You are correct. There are things where people from both sides can be in full agreement. In fact you left a comment yesterday (or the day before) that I thought was reasonable and fair.

         My response was more an observation of right- wingers in general which many commentators here have noted before. It’ll try to be less hasty and more careful in future.
         • AB 2.1.1.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 10:11 pm

           Anne – I wouldn’t be too apologetic.
           It is of course excellent that James has changed his mind in this case and he should be congratulated for it wholeheartedly.
           However his propensity to make the mistake in the first place is still a valid and very interesting area of discussion.
     • Foreign waka 2.1.2

       7 May 2017 at 10:11 am

       Anne -And comments like these just brass me off, ungracious, spiteful and condescending. I am a green voter and leaning more to the left than the right but by god, if that is what the left represents, good ridden’s.
       • Red 2.1.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 11:03 am

         Identity politics vs we are simply all individuals, Condescending attitude and some sort of morale superiority is common amoung hard lefties and it is why they alienate the masses They absolutely loose it when such is highlighted or the artifice of their beliefs are challenged and contradictions are high lighted
         • Draco T Bastard 2.1.2.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 11:14 am

           I mostly see such vile behaviour from the RWNJs. They really, really don’t like it when their beliefs are not only challenged but proved wrong. Still, they won’t change their beliefs.
           • James 2.1.2.1.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 11:39 am

             Really ? Because you are replying to a thread that is exactly the opposite to what you just said.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               7 May 2017 at 12:29 pm

               Yes, really.

               And this thread is mostly Anne being corrected by others on the left and Anne apologising for her initial comment.

               On the other hand, over the last ten years on this board, I’ve seen the RWNJs get really brassed off and swing to ad hominem attacks when their beliefs are challenged but I’ve very rarely seen that from those on the Left.
               • Red …

                 7 May 2017 at 12:39 pm

                 your Selective bias is very strong DB if you believe that
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   7 May 2017 at 12:50 pm

                   One thing I’ve noticed is the truth of what (IIRC) George Hendry once pointed out: that you can always tell what right wingers intend, by listening to accusations they level at others.

                   Anyhow, you have some putting up or shutting up to do. When you fail to put up, your total lack of personal responsibility means you won’t even have the guts to admit it.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   7 May 2017 at 1:51 pm

                   I don’t have a selective bias but the RWNJs engage in projection quite liberally. As OAB points out RWNJs almost universally.

                   http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/4/16/1083830/-Republican-Politics-of-Projection
                   book page
                   http://prospect.org/article/projection-party

                   And the list goes on and on.
               • James …

                 7 May 2017 at 12:49 pm

                 Me- “I have no doubt that my original view of the situation was wrong”

                 You. “They really, really don’t like it when their beliefs are not only challenged but proved wrong. Still, they won’t change their beliefs”

                 I think that perfectly sums you up – stating something as a fact- even in reply to a comment that proves you wrong.
                 • Draco T Bastard …

                   7 May 2017 at 1:20 pm

                   I wasn’t responding to what you said but what Red said and a single point of data does not make a statistic.
               • Incognito …

                 7 May 2017 at 12:59 pm

                 @ Draco T Bastard 12:29 pm:

                 I don’t want to be pedantic but “Anne being corrected by others on the left” is very different from what actually happened, which is that Anne ‘corrected’ herself. The first is the moralistic and patronising arrogance that often rubs many people the wrong way. The second is a person realising the consequence of her actions not aligning well with who she is and taking responsibility for that – I applaud her.
         • xanthe 2.1.2.1.2

           7 May 2017 at 11:18 am

           sadly i agree with Red here. and don’t have a lot of hope that those responsible will own this.
           • Red 2.1.2.1.2.1

             7 May 2017 at 12:35 pm

             Some examples

             Science yes accept but not when contrary to left ideology, ie degree of impact and response to climate change, abortion, LGBT debate, identity politics

             economics, Venezuela, North Korea, history of Soviet Union, abject failure of closed economies and socialism in the 20th century doesn’t count as does not fit the left narrative, oh but it works in Scandinavia, under very unique circumstances however let’s ignore the balance of overwhelming evidence

             selected morality, the left dancers on the graves of pike river for political expediency, Dirty politics is only dirty if the other guys do it

             Many more but you get my gist
             • One Anonymous Bloke …

               7 May 2017 at 12:46 pm

               Sure I do: it’s a pack of lies. Unless of course you can find some examples of anyone defending Venezuelan economic policies, or North Korean anything, or rejoicing at Pike River deaths. Put up or shut up.

               The fact is the NZ left has always run this economy better than the right. You can’t handle that fact so you drivel on about the USSR.

               As for condescending attitudes and superiority, calling dead children “feral” is a pretty good example, and so is almost everything that oozes out of Gerry Brownlee.
               • Red …

                 7 May 2017 at 12:52 pm

                 An emotiional response OAB, exactly my point when lefts contradictions are highlighted and beliefs are challenged
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   7 May 2017 at 12:58 pm

                   Can’t find any examples eh. You made assertions of fact that you cannot support, and when challenged to do so, you failed.

                   Do you disagree that calling people “feral” is an example of a condescending superior attitude? Can’t you defend your spiritual leader?
                   • Red …

                     7 May 2017 at 1:14 pm

                     Some things are simply self evident OAB, ie socialism has been adject failure from a logic, evidence and competing alternate system basis, You can choose to accept this or not, your a prisoner of your own anger so I don’t believe anything will change your mind, likewise not really wanting to get into a personal abuse session with you where such debates normally go Saying that i respect your right for you to give your views but not necessarily agree with or how you express them which I feel is counter to you and the left cause in winning hearts and minds
                   • weka …

                     7 May 2017 at 1:15 pm

                     So you think that NZ was an abject failure before 1984?
                   • One Anonymous Bloke …

                     7 May 2017 at 1:31 pm

                     Yawn Red.

                     I’m a social democrat. As such, I have no need to defend myself against your mis-aimed shots: they are off target.

                     You can’t meet the challenge I gave you, and cannot admit that. Thanks for making my point.
                   • Draco T Bastard …

                     7 May 2017 at 1:58 pm

                     Some things are simply self evident OAB, ie socialism has been adject failure from a logic, evidence and competing alternate system basis,

                     And yet the scientific evidence shows the exact opposite. The most prosperous time the world has ever seen was between ~1945 and the ~1970s under huge socialism and building environmentalism.

                     On the other hand, under capitalism we’re seeing increasing poverty and environmental degradation. In fact, the last 5000 years shows that capitalism like societies always collapse due to the rich always demanding more and preventing the poor from having anything.

                     You can choose to accept this or not, your a prisoner of your own anger

                     And there’s more of that psychological projection that RWNJs compulsively engage in when their beliefs are proved wrong.
                   • Wainwright …

                     7 May 2017 at 11:19 pm

                     Red’s argument is so poewrful he doesn’t have to justify it! Classic righties.
               • xanthe …

                 7 May 2017 at 1:10 pm

                 “The fact is the NZ left has always run this economy better than the right. You can’t handle that fact so you drivel on about the USSR.”

                 eeeeekkkk ! where did that come from,
                 Where were you during Rogernomics?

                 Where were you when this happened (wikipedia)
                 “On 12 March 2004, Minister of Conservation Chris Carter approved the access arrangement for Pike River Coal Ltd”
                 • weka …

                   7 May 2017 at 1:16 pm

                   Arguably Rogernomics wasn’t left wing 😉
                 • One Anonymous Bloke …

                   7 May 2017 at 1:32 pm

                   I said “better than the right”. Not “well”.
             • Draco T Bastard …

               7 May 2017 at 1:27 pm

               Science yes accept but not when contrary to left ideology, ie degree of impact and response to climate change

               And yet it’s the RWNJs that are disagreeing with what the science says because they need to keep the Ponzi Scheme that is capitalism going.

               economics, Venezuela, North Korea, history of Soviet Union, abject failure of closed economies and socialism in the 20th century doesn’t count as does not fit the left narrative

               I haven’t seen anyone on the Left call for a closed economy. Even I haven’t done that but I have pointed out that free-market should result in limited trade because trade is more expensive, in real terms, than each country producing what it uses.

               selected morality, the left dancers on the graves of pike river for political expediency

               It wasn’t the Left that promised to go get them and then reneged on that promise and lied about the reasons. the RWNJs don’t have any morality or ethics.
   • Molly 2.2

     7 May 2017 at 9:16 am

     You find yourself feeling empathy.

     And doesn’t Vicki herself display it well in the article:
     “…”But I think things need to be re-looked at when you’re given a time frame on your life … It’s not a life sentence.”

     She was also concerned other inmates faced with life-threatening conditions might not get the chance she had to go home to their family, because they don’t have the same support she received from her well-known brother, professional boxer David “Brown Buttabean” Letele and the public he rallied….
   • Incognito 2.3

     7 May 2017 at 9:40 am

     Compassion is impossible to measure but often easier to spot although sometimes it is seen as ‘being soft’ or a sign of ‘weakness’.

     Many studies have shown that empathy and compassion can be learned.

     NB this is a response to your comment, not to you personally.

     Enjoy your Sunday.
3. saveNZ 3

   7 May 2017 at 9:03 am

   Have to agree with Winston on this. Have a relative in hospitality for 8 years at the same job. The firm has changed ownership and he’s been told to sign a zero hour contract (which I thought was banned). So many of the hospitality jobs are not real or sustainable jobs. The power balance is wrong in this industry and the NZ taxpayer has to subsidise all these hospitality workers on minimum wages and zero hour contracts with WINZ, Health, social services. Meanwhile real hospitality businesses are going under because there are so many fake ones competing against each other on each corner and most of them half empty.

   Like 3rd rate private education providers, hospitality has the side industry of supplying work and residency visas to people as the real goal.

   “Winston Peters has rubbished claims New Zealand needs another 200,000 workers in the service industry as “alternative facts”.”

   “If there is a shortage, Mr Peters says it can be filled by the 92,000 young people not in education, training or employment, and the 130,000 currently unemployed.”

   http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/politics/2017/05/worker-shortage-alternative-facts-winston-peters.html
   • UncookedSelachimorpha 3.1

     7 May 2017 at 10:11 am

     God! I’m agreeing with Winston on this one.
   • Foreign waka 3.2

     7 May 2017 at 10:16 am

     saveNZ – I saw the other day a program about recruitment of mercenaries and the business model designed to squeeze the wages – race to the bottom policies.
     This has created child soldiers.
     Is the same “model” applied in our service industries, just replace child with immigrant.
   • Psycho Milt 3.3

     7 May 2017 at 11:04 am

     “Winston Peters has rubbished claims New Zealand needs another 200,000 workers in the service industry as “alternative facts”.”

     I’m skeptical about those claims myself. My daughter does ten hours a week at Dominos – she tells me they’re advertising for staff even though they just hired four people. It’s a mystery to her, but not to me, having done rostered part-time work before: rostering staff gets so much easier when you have a large pool of workers available, and it also means you can give them fewer hours than they’d like, which fosters a healthy (for the employer’s profits) sense of competition among the staff for increased hours. Why we as a society would want to encourage and facilitate that practice is beyond me (it’s clear enough why National and its donors would want us to, but what about the rest of us?).
   • Antoine 3.4

     7 May 2017 at 12:52 pm

     > “Winston Peters has rubbished claims New Zealand needs another 200,000 workers in the service industry as “alternative facts”. If there is a shortage, Mr Peters says it can be filled by the 92,000 young people not in education, training or employment, and the 130,000 currently unemployed.”

     That’s going to do wonders for the level of service

     A.
4. adam 4

   7 May 2017 at 9:08 am

   If you have the time a awesome interview with film maker Alex Winter. A real nice deconstruction of the trial and punishment of Ross Ulbricht.

   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-DLiYoN1_4
5. garibaldi 5

   7 May 2017 at 10:26 am

   Re the French election which is about to take place. It looks similar to the American election….. neither candidate is suitable.
   The best one-liner I have seen was from Le Pen who said France will get a woman leader, either herself or Angela Merkel. Good one!
   • Wayne 5.1

     7 May 2017 at 11:12 am

     Whats wrong with Macron?

     On any objective measure he is a very impressive candidate. Sure he has not run for elective office before. But he has been a Minister in government. He also has one of the most impressive academic and intellectual records seen in recent years among presidential candidates.

     Couple that withe amazing chutzpah to even stand in the circumstances, then he could be quite an extraordinary president. Or not.
     • xanthe 5.1.1

       7 May 2017 at 11:23 am

       Not !
       Corporate finance plant, IMHO
     • Ad 5.1.2

       7 May 2017 at 11:25 am

       It’s a good sign that Macron in France is considered as toxic by the hard left and much as the hard right. Both extremes in recent European and UK elections have been shown to be as divisive and unable to govern as each other.

       I think the result won’t be as big a winning gap as one might hope – maybe 57% Macron to 43% Le Pen. So it’s another very clear warning to the Brussels bureaucrats to reform – hard and fast and big.

       And with zero Parliamentary friends Macron has yet to build a machine and win. That means he is going to have to be an astonishingly good coalition-builder.

       But he’s fresh, young, bright, and supports the broader collective called Europe.
       It’s all to play for.
       • millsy 5.1.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 11:37 am

         Macron supports war, privatisation, deregulation and austerity. At best, the French will probably get a continuation of Hollandism.
         • Ad 5.1.2.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 2:13 pm

           How about listing his actual policies instead. Here’s a few:

           – The CICE tax credit system for firms would be converted into permanent payroll tax breaks for low-wage workers.

           – Low-wage earners would be exempted from certain social welfare levies, a measure that would put an extra month’s wage per year in the employee’s pocket.

           – 15 billion on energy/environment targets: exit within 5 years from coal-based energy production, shift towards alternative, renewable energy sources, rise in carbon tax.

           – 5 billion euros on health sector, including better reimbursement of glasses, dentures and hearing aids, plus move away from wasteful medicine packages that contain more pills than a patient needs.

           – State subsidy of 15,000 euros over 3 years for firms that hire people in 200 low-income neighborhoods.

           – Halve number of early primary school pupils to 12 per class in 12,000 low-income zones, with teachers given a bonus of 3,000 euros a year to work in such areas.

           All of which outflank on the left the UK, Australian or NZ Labour Parties.
           • adam 5.1.2.1.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 11:13 pm

             You missed the one he introduced to parliament Ad.

             The anti-strike law

             And the his support of and possible drafting of the state of emergency act (against terrorists) which has curtailed rights in France for the last year.

             But sure, keep going with he is a good guy. Don’t listen to the unions and social democrat’s within France. They all far left in your opinion now?
6. Wainwright 6

   7 May 2017 at 11:00 am

   I’ve been thinking about it, and i reckon Bill’s right. We need to bring liberalism down – in NZ!
   https://thestandard.org.nz/liberalism-and-the-left/

   We’ve got a choice between two evils too – one greate rand one lesser. Labour stands for “budget responsibility” and slashing immigration and tinkering at the edges of the tax system. Same old neolib stuff. Liberals everywhere are demanding voters put two ticks next to Labour. But does it stack up? Is it the only game in town?

   NO, friends. There’s a third way! The crucial bit people miss is the hyping of a fourth term National government. Same as how Trumnp was attacked as a scary rightwing nightmare in the US, and he’s only just eradicated healthcare for millions of people.

   So maybe if you happen to be a true leftwing New Zealander, have a vote and want liberalism ended to create the space for the beginnings of a decent society, then cast some form of tactical vote for The Act Party.

   They’ll only get two or three members from a total of 121 in Parliament and support National. It would look like a one-term, lame duck Government, as opposed to a powerful LIttle Prime Ministership enjoing support from across the political spectrum.

   Under National/Act, media will (for some reason) not attack the left any more, so we’ll have space to breathe while neoliberalism (for some reason) fades away. And we can doo all that agitating and organising stuff too.

   But like Bill said, it’s maybe for the best if you don’t bother yourself by thinking about it. It’s probably safer and easier to just keep following instructions, and inventing strategies for people on the other side of the world whose election results won’t actually effect you.

   (This comment is obviously satire)
   • Bill 6.1

     7 May 2017 at 11:52 am

     Ridding NZ of liberalism – even simply replacing it with social democratic governance -would be a good thing Wainwright, right?

     In Scotland, there was an opening that was taken. In England and Wales there’s a possibility that is being diminished. In France there’s a small window of opportunity.

     And satire, unlike what you’ve written, is intelligent and cutting.
     • Wainwright 6.1.1

       7 May 2017 at 12:18 pm

       Interesting you didn’t engage with the real point: if it’s so good for the left to vote in a hostile rightwing government in France, why not here? But in my experience your MO is always to assume anyone who doesn’t agree with you is stupid.
     • weka 6.1.2

       7 May 2017 at 12:57 pm

       Riding NZ of neoliberalism is probably supported by most people here. It’s the strategy that is in contention.
       • Bill 6.1.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 2:19 pm

         What strategy is there in NZ for ridding it of this political and economic cancer that you’d rather not see called liberalism? I don’t see any strategy – there is no opening or opportune set of circumstances in NZ at the moment that a strategy could be applied to.
         • weka 6.1.2.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 2:27 pm

           I don’t think there is much in the way of useful strategy being discussed in NZ. As you know, my own position is that we hold as much of a left wing line as we can in the meantime. I’m open to radical change and would be interested in things that have some chance of working. But I also think that traditional ideas about that are problematic because we are running out of time re CC. I think CC will be the revolution of our lifetime and we’d best be ready for the tipping point.

           I see Jane Kelsey is giving a lecture on Beyond Neoliberalism next week. I don’t know if it’s being recorded.

           I do think the time is ripe for discussions about strategies, because there is enough in the mainstream now about how neoliberalism has failed that there is an opportunity to influence the debate about what we should do instead.
   • weka 6.2

     7 May 2017 at 12:56 pm

     Bill’s post (and others advocating this approach) seemed to be largely predicated on a post-election activist movement accompanying the strategy of voting right, but I just don’t see that activist movement and consider the strategy reckless in its absence. If such an activist movement is possible at this time why isn’t it happening already?
     • Incognito 6.2.1

       7 May 2017 at 2:16 pm

       I have tried to address this and twice submitted a Guest Post – most recent attempt yesterday afternoon – but the ‘lines are busy’ …
       • weka 6.2.1.1

         7 May 2017 at 2:17 pm

         shall I email you and you can submit it via me?
       • Bill 6.2.1.2

         7 May 2017 at 2:25 pm

         Have just seen it and cut and pasted t the back end for someone to work on. I don’t have any time in coming days.
         • weka 6.2.1.2.1

           7 May 2017 at 3:44 pm

           ok, I’ve picked it up. Incognito, it should go up in the morning, thanks!
           • weka 6.2.1.2.1.1

             7 May 2017 at 3:51 pm

             I don’t have access to the original email, what is footnote 2?
             • Bill …

               7 May 2017 at 4:06 pm

               Oops. Have dropped both footnotes on bottom.
               • weka …

                 7 May 2017 at 4:29 pm

                 still can’t see them.
                 • Incognito …

                   7 May 2017 at 10:02 pm

                   @ weka,

                   If it is of any help I can e-mail it directly to you but then I’ll need your e-mail address 😉

                   Thanks in advance!
                   • weka …

                     8 May 2017 at 4:32 pm

                     I’ve emailed you 🙂
                 • Bill …

                   7 May 2017 at 10:37 pm

                   Done and formatted.
                   • Incognito …

                     7 May 2017 at 10:59 pm

                     Ta
     • Bill 6.2.2

       7 May 2017 at 2:21 pm

       Bill’s post was predicated on the existence of a very specific set of circumstances existing in a specific location – ie, France.
       • weka 6.2.2.1

         7 May 2017 at 2:28 pm

         Fair enough. Do you think France has a chance at the right political movement to effect useful change then?
         • Bill 6.2.2.1.1

           7 May 2017 at 4:16 pm

           I think if “the left” had the organisational capacity of ‘yesteryear’ to communicate across its various facets, it could have taken a reasonable punt on the Presidency front.

           The piece was supposed to be descriptive rather than prescriptive – highlighting possible openings.

           Perhaps La France insoumise (Mélenchon’s party) can make significant inroads in the up coming National Assembly elections.

           Regardless, for reasons I stated in the post, I think opposing Macron’s upcoming austerity is going far more problematic than tackling a ‘lame duck’ Le Pen.
7. Incognito 7

   7 May 2017 at 11:13 am

   “Liam Dann: Why I hate politics”

   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11849862

   I cannot tell whether this is sarcasm or satire or both, with a light sprinkling of hypocrisy.

   Mr Dann wants to have his (quiet) life back and do just (!) business without the distractions of politics and all its machinations.

   Can we get back to market fundamentals now? No, because we have been sucked into an ideological bunfight.

   Satire, surely …

   Here’s my reply to Mr Dann’s commiserations:

   It’s the economists, stupid
   • greywarshark 7.1

     7 May 2017 at 12:23 pm

     Incognito
     Thanks for that delicious titbit. Dann’s definitely a bit of a twit! All this head thrashing, it’s bad, boring news. Probably the bored and the restless got tired of watching Vesuvius erupt after a while, if they felt they were safely distanced. Let’s look at kittens.

     And for anyone wanting a light cute animal experience that leaves you feeling warm and happy for a minute I give you prairie dogs.
     (http://www.animalplanet.com/tv-shows/wild-kingdom/videos/prairie-dogs-sound-the-alarm/ – coyote
     and
     (http://dailymotion.nz/watch/p0ZG8YpQAUA/brave-prairie-dog-confronts-snake-north-america.html – snake

     If we get a Labour-Green win I will happily jump up and down and fall over too.
8. Cinny 8

   7 May 2017 at 11:28 am

   Watched Q+A this morning and was very impressed by brilliant young woman
   standing for Labour, Kiri Allan, you are a star. Looking forward to seeing you in the house later this year.
9. greywarshark 9

   7 May 2017 at 11:53 am

   James James James has plenty to say, that is important.
   He makes me think of AAMilne’s James James Robinson Robinson Weatherby George Dupree.
   Lots of repetition with James, and self-importance – though he was only three.

   James James
   Morrison Morrison
   Weatherby George Dupree
   Took great
   Care of his Mother,
   Though he was only three.
   James James Said to his Mother,
   “Mother,” he said, said he;
   “You must never go down
   to the end of the town,
   if you don’t go down with me.”
   https://allpoetry.com/Disobedience

   Unfortunately TS commenters are a wandering lot in their search for Truth, Fairness and Decent Housing etc. So James, you can’t be blamed if you go somewhere else to play.
   • James 9.1

     7 May 2017 at 12:50 pm

     It’s ok. I like it here.
     • greywarshark 9.1.1

       7 May 2017 at 2:09 pm

       Yes a secure place for a 3 year old going on 43. Wise decision until you get a better idea, or just an idea.
10. joe90 10

    7 May 2017 at 12:08 pm

    What hell do you have to lose?

    .

    Lots, apparently.

    President Donald Trump signaled Friday that he may not implement a 25-year-old federal program that helps historically black colleges finance construction projects on their campuses, suggesting that it may run afoul of the Constitution.

    In a signing statement on the $1.1 trillion omnibus government spending bill, Trump singled out the Historically Black College and University Capital Financing Program as an example of provisions in the funding bill “that allocate benefits on the basis of race, ethnicity, and gender.”

    http://www.politico.com/story/2017/05/05/trump-historically-black-colleges-financing-unconstitutional-238061
    • JC 10.1

      7 May 2017 at 10:01 pm

      Not Black but White….. whatever that means… Trumped maybe…

      http://gcaptain.com/trumps-arctic-drill-plan-challenged-environmental-groups/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Gcaptain+%28gCaptain.com%29
    • Wainwright 10.2

      7 May 2017 at 11:22 pm

      It’s ok Joe, I hear Trump isn’t really going to be that bad it’s just a beat-up by the Hillary-loving media, just like Assad using sarin on kids. Wikileaks has the truth, just ignore the fact they haven’t leaked anything which didn’t serve Russian interests for years. Don’t buy into the liberal conspiracy!!! 🙄
11. Ray 11

    7 May 2017 at 12:27 pm

    Hopefully the disaster for Labour in the UK is not an pointer for their parliamentary elections.
    If nothing else it should wake the Left to what could happen if they don’t get out and vote, hopefully this will be a real energiser for those who tend to not bother to vote.
    Interesting times eh!
    • red-blooded 11.1

      7 May 2017 at 1:03 pm

      I think we have to acknowledge that it probably is an indicator of the likely result in the upcoming general election, Ray. Labour in the UK is tearing itself apart, and unlike many others on this thread, I don’t blame just the parliamentary caucus or the supposed neo-liberals amongst its ranks: everyone is part of the same party and all must share the blame if they’re not managing to discuss their differences and then agree to a common approach and set of policies. I include Corbyn and his fans: they have to take their share of the blame. This election is going to be a rout and I doubt Corbyn will survive as leader (although who would want to step up in this situation is a pretty big question).
      • Draco T Bastard 11.1.1

        7 May 2017 at 1:32 pm

        everyone is part of the same party and all must share the blame if they’re not managing to discuss their differences and then agree to a common approach and set of policies.

        True to some degree. If one side isn’t willing to talk and goes straight to the MSM with their BS then who’s fault is it?
      • Bill 11.1.2

        7 May 2017 at 4:23 pm

        The membership will determine that. (Corbyn’s continued leadership)
      • Wainwright 11.1.3

        7 May 2017 at 11:24 pm

        Only ooption for Corbyn and his fans was to not elect Corbyn leader because the neolibs were always willing to sink the party rather than grow spines and demonstrate real principle. How do you compromise with terrorists?
    • Bill 11.2

      7 May 2017 at 4:22 pm

      Was a bit disquieting this morning to read that the Orange Order has won seats in Scotland by way of the Tory Party. Don’t think I can overstate the fuck-edness of that.

      Run that alongside the UKIP vote folding into the Tory vote south of the border…

      You’d think msm might pick up on that and scream blue murder, yes? Nah. Keep to the plan of dragging down Corbyn.

      Glad I don’t live there anymore.
      • Karen 11.2.1

        8 May 2017 at 9:49 am

        That is depressing news, Bill. Just when I thought the sectarianism in Scotland was starting to decline. (My partner is Scottish – grew up in a Catholic town in Ayrshire)
12. Poission 12

    7 May 2017 at 1:20 pm

    When the public rebels against unfair taxation, governments can change.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/92207613/kiwisavers-harshly-taxed-compared-to-property-investors-book-claims
13. Ed 13

    7 May 2017 at 3:06 pm

    ‘NZ’s wealthiest UK-based citizens add millions to their fortunes’

    The events of the 1980s were most beneficial to these people.

    Gibbs.
    Myers
    Richwhite
    Watson

    To call them Zealanders is a bit of a stretch. The 0.01% owe allegiance to no society but themselves.

    Many would describe these vulture capitalists in ungenerous terms. Stuff does not because it is owned by another billionaire.

    http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/92309942/never-mind-the-brexit-new-zealands-wealthiest-ukbased-citizens-add-hundreds-of-millions-to-their-fortunes
    • Tamati Tautuhi 13.1

      8 May 2017 at 2:29 am

      The NZ oligarchs of the 1980’s Gibbs, Fay Richwhite, Brierly and Fletchers did particularly well out of the sale of State Assets and the systemic asset stripping of
      NZ Inc. In hindsight our politicans were incredibly naive and shortsighted and quickly squandered any cash generated by the sale of these State Assets, also we as a country lost the revenue producing capacity of these assets to fund social services ?
      • Ed 13.1.1

        8 May 2017 at 6:28 am

        In other countries, these people would not be knighted.
        They would be tried.
        For treason.

        Some of our politicians may have been shortsighted and naive; others will not get such a generous report in history.
14. weka 14

    7 May 2017 at 3:35 pm

    Does anyone know why this link goes to iCloud?

    http://web.me.com/jane_kelsey/Jane/Welcome.html

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