Gordon MacLauchlan getting cranky in his dotage;
Scorns classic sitcom, but endorses shallow fringe “academic”
The Panel, Radio NZ National, Wednesday 5 June 2013
Jim Mora, Gordon MacLauchlan, Chris Wikaira
Jim Mora’s chat show only rarely springs to life. Most of the time it consists of a small roster of “commentators”, few of them particularly well informed or even pleasant, commenting in anodyne fashion about trivial matters, or in a doggedly flippant way about serious matters. Every now and then, however, someone steps out of line and shows a bit of backbone; on such rare occasions, The Panel becomes something more than a sadly wasted opportunity.
A few examples stand out for me; significantly, they all occurred several years ago. Anyone who heard these encounters will remember them, for they sizzled with the drama of forbidden conflict, and in each case reduced a powerful and arrogant opponent to either spluttering rage or sullen silence or (in one case) a groveling backdown.
1.) Chris Trotter took the gloves off one afternoon and launched into special guest Mike Moore, challenging his vacuous neo-liberal rhetoric, and provoking Moore to ditch his nice guy mask and snarl on air, “You little [expletive deleted]!”
2.) Gordon Campbell supplies not one but TWO highlights: on one occasion confounding the bullying ex-copper Graham Bell and on another confounding the jolly back-slapper Richard Griffin. On each occasion Campbell simply pointed out that they did not have a clue what they were talking about. A humiliated Bell retreated into a glowering, resentful silence, while Griffin made a groveling apology and retraction on the spot.
3.) Bomber Bradbury one afternoon reduced National Party eminence griseMichelle Boag to teeth-gnashing fury when he rejected her assertion that we need to bribe the rich to stay in New Zealand, and then went on to dismiss her ability to pronounce on economic policy.
4.) Gordon MacLauchlan suddenly lost patience with the hard right Nevil Gibson glibly declaring that the role of city councils was merely to pick up rubbish. “That’s RIDICULOUS, Nevil,” he said, and proceeded to school the doctrinaire dunderhead about the necessity for and the complexity of council functions, carefully established over generations, of public services like libraries, parks and festivals. Nevil Gibson simply did not have a coherent response to offer, and lapsed into a silence closely resembling stupidity.
Since those halcyon days, sadly, much has changed. Gordon Campbell has never appeared again since his blocking of Graham Bell, and Bomber Bradbury was banned outright for the crime of criticizing the prime minister. Chris Trotter goes out of his way to be conciliatory and “measured”; he might as well be asleep. And Gordon MacLauchlan has, alas, never recaptured that fire which enabled him to slice, dice and fillet Nevil Gibson with such panache.
But still, when I learned that Gordon MacLauchlan was a guest on The Panel this afternoon, I hoped against hope that he would recapture some of that past form. Alas, it was not to be….
Three decades ago, Gordon MacLauchlan took it upon himself to compile and edit The Acid Test: an Anthology of New Zealand Humorous Writing. One would think that someone who presumed to undertake such a task would have something of value to contribute; in fact anyone who reads his acerbic little introductory essay will realize that his observations on comedy are pedestrian and obvious; like another self-styled “curmudgeon”, Tom Frewen, when it comes to criticizing comedy, MacLauchlan lacks something crucial: a sense of humor. As we will see after Chris Wikaira’s “Soapbox” contribution, MacLauchlan is also a fogeyish, fustian fellow, full of fear and loathing of Māori, or at least those Māori who don’t know their place.
First, though, let’s see him display his erudition and judgement on the subject of television comedy….
JIM MORA: What else is the world talking about? SUSAN BALDACCI: We have another survey today, Jim! JIM MORA: Another highly important survey! Ha ha ha ha ha! SUSAN BALDACCI: Well, actually, this one’s a list! They’ve asked people which are the ten best-written television shows in the whole history of television. MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha! SUSAN BALDACCI: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! SUSAN BALDACCI: Ha ha ha ha ha! Well, it turns out the top two are The Sopranos and Seinfeld. GORDON MacLAUCHLAN:[fervently] Oh yes! MORA: Oh yes, The Sopranos and Seinfeld! Yes, yes, they’re brilliant! SUSAN BALDACCI: And in third place was The Twilight Zone. MORA: Oh! The Twilight Zone was third, was it? SUSAN BALDACCI:[with barely concealed irritation] Y-y-yes. GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: Are there any British shows on the list? SUSAN BALDACCI: Yes, but it’s a long way down the list—Upstairs, Downstairs. MORA: Oh, Upstairs, Downstairs is on the list, is it? SUSAN BALDACCI:[through clenched teeth] Yes it is on the list. GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: There are a LOT of brilliant British shows! Monty Python, for instance.
MORA: Monty Python? Surely it’s a bit too anarchic and crazy for mainstream tastes, isn’t it? GORDON MacLAUCHLAN:[with deep reverence] Actually, Python is just BRILLIANT writing! It’s complex and well written. It is writing of the highest order! Python is brilliant! It leaves Cheers for dead.
That foolish declaration was the first indication this afternoon that MacLauchlan’s judgement is in serious decline. But there was even worse to come….
The Soapbox….
JIM MORA: Time to find out what have our Panelists have been thinking. Chris Wikaira, what’s been on your mind? CHRIS WIKAIRA: I was astonished and perturbed to see Canterbury Law School academic David Round working himself up into a lather the other day about ideas like Māori “co-governance” with Pakeha. I get fed up with this alarmist hand-wringing, that always comes to nowt. MORA:[slowly, to indicate serious thought] But that’s not the core of objection to co-governance is it? CHRIS WIKAIRA: Is it not? MORA:[quietly, to indicate sincere concern] People are worried that it is undemocratic.
In publicly contesting the utterances of the odious David Round, Wikaira was calling out one of the most virulent racists in not only academia, but in the whole country. As a Māori, and in particular as a Māori in the National Party, Wikaira will, sadly, be accustomed to being the target of glib, ill-informed and hostile rhetoric. But even Chris Wikaira would not have been prepared for Mora’s display of bloody-minded mischievousness and deliberate obtuseness. As Mora ground on with his reiteration of David Round’s fantasy, insinuating without any evidence that there are many “people” who think the very notion of Māori rights is “undemocratic”, Wikaira became more and more exasperated. There was a palpable sense of helplessness as well as anger; what CAN you do when the host is pouring forth such nonsense? What Chris Wikaira SHOULD have done, of course, was pin Mora down at the moment he started to repeat Round’s nonsense, and asked him to name the “people” who “worry” like that. But Wikaira was clearly not expecting a nominally liberal and ostensibly pleasant radio broadcaster to actually REPEAT the extremist rhetoric, he (Wikaira) was refuting.
And then to compound things, silly old Gordon MacLauchlan weighed in on the side of David Round as well. He announced that what Round had said might actually have something going for it. It turns out that MacLauchlan has come across something that has confirmed his deep and principled and long-held suspicions about all this Maori rights stuff. What he had discovered was an article written by an Auckland University “Critical Theory” professor called Elizabeth Rata.
An obscure and unrecognized denizen of the flakiest, least respected of all university departments, Elizabeth Rata has for years labored away under a rock, presumably vaporing on about absurdly recondite Lacanian theory or something else that nobody, including her, either understands or cares about. Late last year, Rata figured that it was time to venture forth from the Crit. Theory common-room and write something that would strike a chord with people—especially people too stupid or too old to know they were being conned by a “Critical Theorist” who had never written anything that had ever made a lick of sense. Stupid people, in other words, like ACT party theoreticians, Epsom voters and old Pākehā “liberals” like Gordon MacLauchlan. The gist of her article was this: the “politicization of grievances” by Māori has “set New Zealand back.” If ONLY they would sit down and be QUIET! And, …. well, that’s it.
It was pretty much exactly the same as the infamous race-baiting crap written for Don “Brethren Cash” Brash to read out at that Orewa Rotary dinner in early 2004. Or the vile stuff that “Sir” Paul Holmes used to phone in for his ridiculous Herald column. MacLauchlan, who in many ways is a liberal, would be horrified to think that’s what he was endorsing, but that is in fact what he was endorsing. The old curmudgeon has obviously been looking for some kind of academic validation for his basic intolerance of those noisy and unpleasant Maori radicals who make New Zealand so different from the pleasant 1950s and 60s, when MacLauchlan was in his prime. And when that validation comes in the form of an attack on Māori written by an impressively credentialed “Critical Studies” academic—one with a Māori name to boot—he fell on it like it was Holy Writ.
Chris Wikaira did manage to rally somewhat, pointing out that such dismissive views as those of Round and Rata lack not only empirical evidence but also lack intellectual rigor. He reminded McLauchlan that there was nothing new about co-governance or any of the other concepts that bigots like Round pretend to be frightened by; that Māori had operated in partnership with the Crown on projects up and down the country; and that co-governance was a sensible and inevitable result of negotiations under the Treaty of Waitangi. Of course, MacLauchlan knew that what Wikaira was saying was not just common sense, but simply the truth. But by naïvely endorsing that Elizabeth Rata excrescence, he had climbed too far out on a rotten limb to be able to climb down with any dignity. His response was sullen and ungenerous….
MacLAUCHLAN:[sniffing resentfully] Yeah, I guess, yeah. WIKAIRA:[conciliatory, reasoning tone] I mean, co-governance is just what it’s going to evolve into. MacLAUCHLAN:[affecting to be unmollified] Well, hrrrrumph, Elizabeth Rata wrote a thought-provoking article. It’s an interesting point of view, actually. It’s a very interesting point of view.
And then, just when you think it’s time he was turned over to the tender care of the same Home for the Terminally Bewildered that incarcerates Garth “Gaga” George, MacLauchlan comes up with something lucid and morally unimpeachable….
MORA: All right, Gordon, what’s been on YOUR mind lately?
MacLAUCHLAN: I’ve been mildly disconcerted by this Trans-Pacific partnership. It’s very, very disturbing. It’s profoundly anti-democratic, and it has people worried in the United States just as much as in New Zealand. Congress has been shut out of the process—but big business has access to the draft documents. Ron Kirk, until recently Obama’s top trade advise, says it has been kept secret because if the public understood it, it would lead to vast public anger. This is seriously anti-democratic and I am seriously disturbed by this.
MORA:[light-hearted tone] These corporate people are pretty smart, they’ve been to charter schools, Gordon!
That’s a lot of work Morrisey to give us this report. You may get tired of it when the merry go round just keeps turning and the usual suspects bob up and down. What’s the next attraction at the circus?
prism, my friend, just remember this: He who is tired of The Panel is tired of life.
A few minutes ago I listened to that repulsive crank Stephen Franks lecturing his fellow guest (Sapna Samant) about the importance of language, and the danger of using words like “slavery” to describe people who feel obliged to work long hours for their corporations. Of course, Franks was implying that HE (i.e. Franks) is a rigorous and serious thinker; he’s not.
Right now Franks is pontificating about the irresponsibility of the poor. “I can’t see how giving poor people money is going to solve the problem of eating rubbish food,” he opined.
He has no time at all for public health programs, especially ones targeting childhood obesity. It all comes down to “personal responsibility”, which means that we’re all alone in the world, and the do-gooders are no use at all, just a bunch of busybodies. “All I see is wittering on from the social industry,” he snarls.
Sapna Samant and Noelle McCarthy are clearly appalled by him, and are politely challenging his assumptions. Franks is not accustomed to this; he is obviously used to lording it over the underlings in his law practice—one of whom is the hopelessly lightweight Jordan Williams, another occasional Panel regular. But a couple of sharp women are beyond him; he will not engage in serious discussion.
When I stop feeling disgusted every time I hear this canting hypocrite sound off, I’ll know it’s time to hang up my boots.
Morrissey mon ami you put things so well. It’s painful though to keep exposing the dregs of our intellectual society. It’s a dirty job but you feel you’re the one to do it. Rather you than me. It’s bad for mental health I think. Depressing.
well Mozza, I tire of ‘The Panel’, yet am not tired of life, yet. Thank Goodness for all the neat stuff one may learn from The Standard (and links) in a day is wot I say. Tally Ho!
An interesting perspective Morrissey. Almost a script for satire. Though they are entitled to their opinions aren’t they? We can disagree with what they say and be angered by their utterances especially that Bell fellow. The concern about TPP was well said and echoes what many here must fear.
I guess Mr Mora is trying to play the neutral referee but like the Speaker in the House his probable bias leaks through.
An interesting perspective Morrissey. Almost a script for satire. Though they are entitled to their opinions aren’t they?
They most certainly are, and it’s incumbent on the rest of us to point out when they are telling lies or just talking nonsense. That’s what Messrs Trotter, Campbell, Bradbury and MacLauchlan have done so effectively in the past; what is disturbing is the fact that two of those voices are no longer allowed onto the programme.
We can disagree with what they say and be angered by their utterances especially that Bell fellow. The concern about TPP was well said and echoes what many here must fear.
I agree with you. Gordon MacLauchlan is an intelligent analyst and an effective speaker. On most things.
I guess Mr Mora is trying to play the neutral referee but like the Speaker in the House his probable bias leaks through.
Unfortunately, he’s more Craig Joubert than he is Pierluigi Collina.
sadly, when polled by Campbell Live (or Seven Sharp) following this cartoon (and I listened to Nisbet interviewed on RNZ @ 5pm Checkpoint, so his ‘agenda’ was clearly concurrent), 77% responded “Yes, that the cartoon depicted reality”.
now it may be just my weird psychological composition, yet I cannot listen to very much RNZ overall; Morning Report, Midday, Checkpoint and the authoratative INTERVIEWEES is enough, ‘specially seeing as Hauraki play such excellent rock and Alice In Chains released a new album, “The Devil Put Dinosaurs Here”…
Michelle A’Court hit the mark….when commenting about Nisbet’s cartoons and child poverty.
She did, but in the pre-show (before 4 o’clock) she embarked on an unhinged denunciation of the Australian DJs who are being blamed by some fools for the suicide of Jacintha Saldanha.
There are still lots of interesting and worthwhile contributions on The Panel. And, for all his faults, which I do like to lampoon, Jim Mora himself is an intelligent and witty broadcaster.
The photo says it all, we dont know what they do and they wont tell us. What I would wager is that if one of the great criminal figures of the 20th century (Kissinger) is attending then it wont be for the good of you and me.
I’m sure the LP supporters are thrilled the UK Labour Party is continuing its strong history of attendance!
I’m sure the discussions will center around, altruistic, humanitarian endevours!
For mine, after decades denying the group existed, having been outed officially over the past 10 years or so, its likely little more than a distraction, designed for the media beat up!
Still its a *nice opportunity, for many of histories, worst criminal elements/crime families to get together, and with the likes Kenneth Clarke representing the Uk political paedophile wing, expect to hear him trumpeting for further decreases in sentence penalties, shortly after the *conference* is completed!
Interesting analytical report by the Guardian’s Bildeberg watcher, Charlie Skelton, of what happens when local politics meets global power.
When an organisation/network moves from secret to semi-secret, can it still be called a conspiracy? Or is it a political organisation/gathering, or just another right wing think tank?
The article covers how Bildeberg manipulates terrorist scaremongering and hides behind the “Great Wall of Watford”; how the police and local authorities are performing charity work for Goldman Sachs in working to protect the meeting; and the Bildebergers’ timid attempt to connect with the media:
The audience was an odd mix. Half were residents from around the venue worried about the possibility of tyre-damage to a strip of lawn; the other half were journalists from around the world worried about the geopolitical implications of a conference at which BAE, Stratfor and General Petraeus will be discussing “Africa’s challenges”.
Both halves were worried about the funding for the gigantic security operation. The police assured sceptical residents that the conference would be “cost-neutral” for Hertfordshire, thanks in part to a “donation” from the conference organisers. This “donation” will have come, in part at least, from the Bilderberg Association, a registered UK charity that takes “donations” from BP and Goldman Sachs.
So, in a sense, the Herts police are doing charity work for Goldman Sachs. Which must be a comfort for the executives of Goldman Sachs attending the conference: the vice-chairman, a director and the chairman of Goldman Sachs International. They’ve got their charity team out patrolling, keeping the lenses at bay.
At one point in the meeting, during a tense exchange about contingency plans for dog-walkers, Rhodes let slip that Operation Discuss (the codename for the Bilderberg security operation) had been up and running for 18 months. Residents and journalists shared an intake of breath. “Eighteen months?” The reason for all the secrecy? “Terrorism”.
Many in the UK have long held the opinion that Watford is the most cogent excuse for nuclear first strike. I concur, today would be a very good day to do it.
Its Watford I am talking about, the place that sold their soccer club to Elton John, who promptly sold it again, says it all. The Bilderbergers would only be “collateral” damage (in their own terms). Iamgine going down in history as being the richest prick on Earth and dying in Watford. How embarrassing. Dreadful!
Declassified papers now reveal that secret rainmaking experiments by the military had been taking place on Exmoor. Aircraft showered clouds with silver iodide, a dusty powder just the right size for water droplets to grow on. We will probably never know for sure if the experiment ran out of control, or whether the freak rains were going to fall in any case
In 1947, meteorologists tried to kill off a dying hurricane out at sea by seeding the clouds. The following day, the hurricane suddenly gathered strength, swung round and hit Savannah, Georgia causing extensive damage. The weather boffins were so rattled by the disaster it was not until August 1969 that they dared try again.
Reckon there is much more the *climate change* debate, than people want to deal with!
Tell me again about the plane you saw flying from the west coast of the south island which arrived in Auckland before turning around and going back again.
The connection, could well be the geo-engineering *research/programmes/operations*, which has, as documented, been going on for many, many decades, and that is only what has made the public domain!
Discussing subject matter, but not caring to factor in, what may/may not be a key contributor to climate change, is what creates vapid exercise!
People can only truly come to a decision point, or a point of view/opinion etc, if all as much information, which can possibly be tabled, is factored in!
The mentality, which TC elucidates nicely, above, in his comments, is not the level of engagement from which understanding can be gained
No, that’s not even close to what I explained, it’s so far from the post I made, the only points you got right, was that planes were invovled, and I mentioned the West Coast!
Go find the post, if you’re that interested in showing how weak your constitution memory is!
What has that got to do with the links on geo-engineering?
FYI – The planes were flying some sort of circuit, off the West Coast, they were not heading to Auckland, (I was) that I was aware of. The turning I refer to was once the planes had circled, the planes then headed west towards Australia. No idea where the next landing point, may have been!
I was in the front row , window seat, left side, of a flight back to AKL, where I saw this.
Interestingly, I saw exactly the same behaviour, on April 29, flying to Sydney, off the East Coast of Australia, planes flying circuits, non commercial!
Lanth just because the likes of yourself and TC, are too scared/lazy to go and do some reading, don’t get all smart arse with your comments, that is the actions of a snivelling little cissy, just as your comment the other day was, reuesting investigating Penny Bright’s, banned status,!
Links have been posted, on these boards, many times, perhaps you missed them, perhaps you don’t know how to use a simple search engine, either way!
Stop being a sniveller, and get into some reading, exapand your understanding, instead of responding with nonsense!
I am extremely well read on both the fluoride and chemtrails conspiracies and have debunked the shit out of your stupid posts and you can’t mount a single fucking argument in support of yourself.
Um, you mean to say you’ve never heard of cloud seeding before? They’ve been doing it since 1903, and it’s never proved particularly succesful, but it certainly doesn’t do what you’re suggesting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding
Lordy. A really uninformative map. Look, just because some forms of geoengineering have been trialed with patchy results does not mean that a vapour trail from a jet is anything other than the usual wingtip vortices created when air flows across the wings of subsonic air as a side effect of lift.
With the Ikaroa-Rāwhiti by-election coming up, I thought I’d check to see how the Maori roll count compares with the general roll. The last time I did this was off 2005 election results, and had to be calculated by hand (I’ve probably still got the pages of working around somewhere – in one of many old boxes of uni papers that I’m never going to sort through, but haven’t yet discarded). After an hour of eye-glazing percentage calculation, this morning I found the following page on the electionresults site: 2011 Election stats. I really wish I’d found it earlier.
To outline the main points: 2.19% of maori roll votes were designated informal in 2011, compared to 0.80% of the general roll, or in other words; a maori vote is 2.7 times more likely to be regarded as informal than a general vote (which is why I stay on the general roll). Ikaroa-Rāwhiti is the worst maori electorate for informality at 2.51%, compared with 0.43% for Epsom; the least informality on the general roll – 5.8 times more likely!
It’s even worse for special votes; 17% of maori roll special votes were disallowed in 2011. So my advice for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti voters is to make sure you are enrolled to vote, and don’t cast a special ballot. Party organizers should also make sure they have reliable observers at every vote count.
You’ll have to follow the link, I’ve closed that tab a while back (good luck finding a glossary that tells you the precise distinction between; “informal”, “disallowed”, & “invalid”, votes; it eluded me). When it gets more wintery, I may get around to printing those lists out and doing a more thorough analysis. If there’s not a snap election before then of course.
Masupial points out that there is much work to do; with repairs, and the little Basupial too: Life may intervene. I’d probably be aiming at a post rather than an open mike comment if I was to put in that amount of work. Statistics do tend to bore people though.
I’ve got Libre Office on the comp, but have only used the Word component. If I can work out how to create and export graphs from the spreadsheet, then I may be able to create something that won’t make everyone’s eyes glaze over. Correlation of; Party, & Electorate, vote, with; geographical location, roll type, and; ballot disallowing; would be most interesting.
Unless anyone has already done the work and can post a link? That would save a lot of time!
How easy is it to have an informal vote? If you tick the one you want and put crosses in the other boxes, or actually cross out the others – does that wipe your vote?
If you tick the wrong box and then realise it and cross that out and tick the one you actually want – is that a spoiled vote?
If you draw a line though all the ones you do want and rick your choice?
Or you leave your choice unticked with all the others crossed out?
I think that in the few moments that voters have to do their voting, that there is room for spoiling the vote amongst new voters and those who aren’t in the habit of writing and reading regularly. Many people probably do a lot of watching and listening but filling out forms brings them out in boils. Does me anyway.
So it could be that the various parties run a pre-election talent night where the pollies all gather and briefly talk and show everyone overhead presentations of the voting papers and method – there could be a few jokes about the other parties to bring some humour into the political process. After that have some singers and music and cakes and tea and fruit juice. The voters need to connect the process with community and fun and worthwhile to them.
CV What not a simple graphic introduction that could tick each box one after another down the sheet or randomly. That’s too precious if not allowed. Especially when electioneering close to the election is allowed. Also polling sampling before closing time.
One of my ideas is also to have a family aimed gala at polling stations with balloons for kids. Let’s get them used to being involved with elections. But I suppose that would be ‘treating’. I think probably. And these are examples of how our democracy is suffering in not promoting itself amongst those who most need it, but don’t understand the value of interaction themselves and exerting their voting power for the best results for themselves and the country.,
A copy of the document was found taped to your correspondent’s recycling bin yesterday, and describes plans for the creation of a “Finishing School for New Zealand Political Aspirants – the Cabbage Boat Academy”.
The coffee-stained dossier is incomplete – missing, for example, is the schedule of concessions SkyCity is seeking in return for its sponsorship – but a good chunk of the proposed curriculum is intact. At first glance it appears commendably up-to-the-minute.
English: At the heart of the curriculum is an embrace of language, and its power to move the human spirit and whatnot. Core texts traverse New Zealand literature from the beloved karakia The Devil-Beast that Terrorised Muldoon to the new Feelers album. Students will study contemporary styles of rhetoric, especially “I know you are but what am I?” Creative writing classes will include “200 ways to call for an inquiry” and the popular exercise “How to pin the blame on some ministry oik in 100 words or fewer”.
Media studies: Pupils will be thoroughly schooled in the crucial three-Ds of constructive engagement with the fourth estate. Dissemble. Dick about a bit. And Don’t answer the bloody phone. Extensive applied tutoring includes how to repeat the same sentence many hundreds of times without wanting to curl up and die and how to identify a “political blogger” and fill it with wine and/or money.
Physical education: Larks, hijinks and good, sweaty old-fashioned exercise, including planking and the Korean horse-riding dance. Mr Peters will lead pupils in standing up and walking away. Plus the famous annual six o’clock dash, in which students are pursued around the school grounds by local meth addicts wearing Patrick Gower masks.
Dance and drama: Most evenings, Mr Carter will be found naked in the courtyard, howling the words, “Lockwood”, “Winston”, “Trevor” and “John you bastard” in the direction of the moon. Do not approach.
karol
+2
Very good with no doubt lots of hints on practical political studies of smirking, creative name-calling, lying with a straight face plus old and new drinking songs and whatnot.
Thanks for those gems.
I for one would like to see the fluoridation debate focused on ARGUMENTS (based upon FACTS and EVIDENCE) – rather than just personally attacking those who are opposed to fluoridation?
In my experience, those who rely on ad hominem (personal) attacks rather than arguments based on FACTS and EVIDENCE, don’t actually have a ‘considered’ opinion?
Water Care Services state, they take the position to add flouride to AKLs water supply, based on scientific evidence from the Minitry of Health, via a mandate by the council.
Perhaps you can dig through that one further, Penny!
If your really worried about it why don’t you get a water filtration system and even that they subsidised for poorer people who don’t want it in there water. Like the fact you can buy non-iodised salt if you don’t want it.
If you do choose to use a domestic water filtration system, for goodness sake make sure you change the filter media at the recommended intervals.
Leaving a filter in for too long simply sets up a dangerous reservoir of all the junk and pathogens that you were trying to remove; and eventually they will ‘break through’ in high concentrations and cause far more harm than any good you achieved in the first place.
Some places have been fluoridated 50+ years, some places have never been fluoridated or were formally fluoridated but have now ceased.
If there was any real public health risk you would be able to show conclusively, given the time frame and population size, a difference in health between these group. A significant statistical difference.
No such evidence has ever been shown, collated or corroborated.
Therefore, you can safety say there is no real risk from Fluoride in the water supply.
As is the position of the UN, WHO, CDC and major public health organisations.
Your argument could well be reversed, if no such evidence has ever been shown, collated nor corroborated how then can there be a scientific justification ‘for’ fluoride being put into water,
Claims that fluoride has saved the teeth of the nation, given what you assert, may just be unsubstantiated claims with no basis in scientific fact…
You are completely correct b12.
For a primer on published and well-referenced studies relating to the clear positive effects associated with fluoride management in public water supplies, I’d suggest looking at some of the many citations here.
I’d suggest not relying on a source with a history of political bias (eg Connolly on AGW)
Dr. Phyllis Mullenix investigated the toxicology of flouride and published her work in the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology. She then lost her job. At a meeting with dental industry representatives immediately following her presentation, Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
You do realise that it’s customary, when referring to a peer-reviewed article, to link to that article rather than a tinhat propaganda site?
I think you’ll find that her paper related to extremely high levels of fluoride, not the levels that would result from the recommended levels. If you could understand it, of course.
nope, they’re politicians who foresaw nutbars screaming “baby killer” at the hustings during local body elections, and saw an opportunity to fob it onto central government. Although to be fair they have a point – but “someone else should help” is never an excuse for watching while nobody helps.
Thanks to McFlock and The Contrarian and anyone else who has derided the anti-fluoridation brigade.
I can’t be bothered to join in the debate. Not worth it. Suffice to say that as a former School Dental Nurse (a long time ago admittedly), the anti-fluoridationists are talking through a large black hole in their heads. Thought of digging out my old text books to re-acquaint myself with the minutia of the subject but what’s the point. You can’t argue with fanatics.They are no different to flat earthers, climate change deniers, conspiratorial crackpots like the 9/11 theorists, or those who believe in aliens from outer space living on Earth.
I just hope those idiots on the Hamilton City Council – and any others who remove the fluoride from their water – are around in 20 to 30 years time when today’s children (including their own) take to them with metaphorical meat-axes for being such gullible fools. Those kids are going to be put to no end of trouble and expense trying to save their teeth – something generations over the past few decades have been able to avoid.
Suffice to say that as a former School Dental Nurse (a long time ago admittedly), the anti-fluoridationists are talking through a large black hole in their heads.
Just like parents who notice that their kids have become less active after visiting the nurse are talking through a large black hole in their heads, right?
Looks like fanatics on both sides to me Anne. And writing people off as conspiratorial crackpots is no different than the Right writing you off as a radical far lefter who wants to destroy society via communism. I also haven’t bothered joining in this round, because it looks like the middle ground is impossible when both sides are so entrenched, and abusive.
Am fairly sure that Anne just called everyone who doesn’t support fluoridation of water supplies a fool and deluded. Sounds like an extreme position to me.
Someone ‘saying’ something and someone ‘demonstrating’ something are different things.
“Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
So she says it, that’s all well and good. But please show me the data which supports her comment. Where is the comparison which shows the statistical IQ difference between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?
Without that the comment meaningless and ca be disregarded because it is unsupported conjecture.
It is relevant because it is factual and because it applies to the subject matter of the health effects of fluoridation.
The meaning of Mullenix’s statement can be inferred from the context:
Then in 1994, after refining her research and findings, Dr. Mullenix presented her results to the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology, considered probably the world’s most respected publication in that field. Three days after she joyfully announced to the Forsyth Institute that she had been accepted for publication by the journal, she was dismissed from her position. What followed was a complete evaporation of all grants and funding for any of Mullenix’s research.
But of course when that meaning implies conspiracy many people find it to be unacceptable.
“Not my job. If you think that statistical IQ differences are relevant then it’s your job to show how the data supports your position.”
No, it is your job.Show me the harm. If you think that statistical IQ differences are relevant then it’s your job to show how the data supports your position.
Where is the comparison which shows the statistical IQ difference between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?
All I know is that people are 10-15 IQ points less intelligent today than in the late 19th century. That’s a catastrophically massive difference. Whatever has happened to us, we are measurably dumber than our great great grand parents.
btw when you study the US political speeches of the 19th and early 20th century – the sentence construction, vocabulary and conceptual communication is far in advance of what we see today.
I have to interject here with a protest, as a member of the first generation to be systematically vaccinated, fluoridated, vitaminised and iodised as a matter of public health policy, that I never suffered from the feeling that I was a mental sluggard compared to my grandparents born before 1910. This despite the fact that I probably absorbed a hell of a lot more environmental lead and petrochemicals during my working life than they ever would have. I’d also wager that my children, likewise administered with all of the above are at least as intelligent as I am. If you’re looking for a culprit for lowering intelligence levels amongst other things, surely tetra-ethyl lead would have to be a more likely candidate than the other things you mention?
Today’s Congress speaks at about a 10.6 grade level, down from 11.5 in 2005. By comparison, the U.S. Constitution is written at a 17.8 grade level, the Federalist Papers at a 17.1 grade level, and the Declaration of Independence at a 15.1 grade level. The Gettysburg Address comes in at an 11.2 grade level and Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech is at a 9.4 grade level. Most major newspapers are written at between an 11th and 14th grade level.
Joe90 – I googled and it seems like Obama’s first inaugural speech was written at a mere grade 9.3 level.
In fact, this interactive chart displays the trend over the centuries better than anywhere else. Looks like George Washington’s addresses were at an equivalent grade 20 level.
George Washington only needed to speak to the top quarter (and educated) proportion of the population, at a wild guess (slaves, etc being out of the mix). Not to mention that the more archaic the language used, the more likely that an automated content analyser won’t be able to adjust for the vernacular that the average person at the time used.
that link to an examination of Jared Diamond’s theses is helpful Populuxe1; I have glanced over his books and read a couple of reviews; Hayseed I know, only so many hours in the glass.
well, the freakin’ politicians certainly are! (overview of Collins attitude to International Prisoner Transfers, where NZ trails the way on todays OM).
“All I know is that people are 10-15 IQ points less intelligent today than in the late 19th century. That’s a catastrophically massive difference. Whatever has happened to us, we are measurably dumber than our great great grand parents.”
Yep, I read that. It’s interesting, but no comprehensive. I’d want to see different cultures measured, and cross cultural comparisons done. Then I’d want to look at the huge range of possible variables – diet, environment, chemicals, stress, differences in electromagnetic fields etc etc.
There are many things that affect brain function. One of my picks would be low fat diets (haven’t looks closely at the dates though to see if they correspond). We need quality fats for good brain function (plus lots of other nutrients).
true on quality fats. My intuition, that the factors you list, diet, stress, chemicals etc are dumbing people down in the West, particularly through media and marketing.
btw, How do you discern to return to an earlier thread like this? I just use the box on top-right to notice who has recently commented and where, or I go by feel; ‘sin is in, the eye of the beholder. Check out the translation of ‘fornication’ (pornea) so often thrown about by the Fundamentalists.
I thought so too. I’ve never read up on it but the more I reflected on CV’s assertion about lowered intelligence levels the longer the list I came up with (off the top of my head) of counters to his argument.
no requirement to knock the booster seats. The P-47 is a pretty good ship, “I was thinking ’bout my baby and lettin’ her rip”, hardened up those laps, now Daddy ran the whiskey in a big-block Forge, “I learned a thing or two from ol’ Charlie don’t ya know, you better stay away from Copperhead Road…
…”Just the good ol boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the Law since the day they was born, straightenin’ the curves, flattenin’ the hills, some day the mountain might get them but the Law never will. Yeeha!
My reading some years ago was that standard IQ tests had to be shifted upwards to maintain the average norms, because each generation was more intelligent than the last.
Yes. Mine too. But so many other things to consider as well. Which generations / eras are we talking about exactly? Who was being tested (demographic make-up)? By whom, using what standardised tests? Aiming to test for what? At what age / education level were they being tested? Many, if not most of the working class of my grandparents generation did not go beyond our form 2 level and if they needed to help support a family like my g-father who left at the end of std 4 it was even less. It seems a lot of what passes for debate on this topic here is trying to compare the apples of paradise with a pear tree struggling to survive in the Kalahari desert.
“First of all, water fluoridation is very bad medicine,” Dr. Connett says, “because once you put it in the water, you can’t control the dose. You can’t control who gets it. There is no oversight. You’re allowing a community to do to everyone what a doctor can do to no one, i.e., force a patient to take a particular medication.”
Fair enough, you’re entitled to your opinion. But isn’t the point of this to show whether or not there are public health risks in fluoridation of water supplies? And isn’t the history of the debate an indication that the wider political context is relevant?
So you say. But your refusal to address the facts speaks volumes.
Rather than actually address the facts, you divert with a secordary issue in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. My argument does not depend on statistical differences between communities.
What explanation do you have for Mullenix’s dismissal other than a pro-fluoridation conspiracy?
You might actually like to provide some facts to be addressed in the first place. Your argument may not depend on statistical differences between communities, but it doesn’t seem to depend on any actual evidence either.
The history of the debate shows that a large number of people in the world are paranoid scientific illiterates who are pandered to by amoral whores.
Beyond that the only relevant data is publicly available and repeatable systematic research, which indicates that fluoridation might have detrimental effects if the water supply already has high levels of fluoride.
In New Zealand we have low natural fluoride levels in the water. Hence our shit DMFT levels without fluoridation.
At least the referendum result in Hamilton. 70% for fluoridation show that the majority did listen to the science.
Pity the council overruled it!
However our “representative” democracy, especially the RW part, has a sad history of going against the interests and wishes of the people they purport to represent.
Even sadder that there are too many, who claim to be left wing supporters of the people, who are equally contemptuous of our right to decide democratically for ourselves..
Because the flipside is the number of kids whose teeth will rot early because their parents aren’t experts on the ideal micro-level nutrient mix humans need on a daily basis. The same reason we iodise table salt to keep thyroids healthy.
Yes, but in general when you’re talking about voters you are talking about people who are adult enough to make their own decisions.
You don’t have to be an expert on micro-nutrients to look after your kids’ teeth. A healthy diet, avoiding sugary drinks, and brushing are pretty much common sense.
AFAIK iodine toxicty hasn’t been a problem in the past.
” A healthy diet, avoiding sugary drinks, and brushing are pretty much common sense.”
And, of course, knowing what minerals and nutrients are deficient in your local water supply so your kids’ teeth rot. Then the same for zinc, folate, selenium, iodine,and damned near every other chemical beyond H2O.
“The history of the debate shows that a large number of people in the world are paranoid scientific illiterates who are pandered to by amoral whores.”
You can’t argue the facts so you talk shit about the opposition.
“the only relevant data is publicly available and repeatable systematic research”
Testing toxicity by compulsory medication of communities is ethically unacceptable.
“fluoridation might have detrimental effects if the water supply already has high levels of fluoride.”
That argument ignores the fact that fluoride accumulates in bones and in the brain. Low dosages over a long period of time can be just as harmful as high dosages.
Chemist Charles Eliot Perkins documented the Nazi use of flouride:
“The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty.”
“When the Nazis under Hitler decided to go into Poland, both the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans, and personnel, and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plan to communize the world.”
Dr. Phyllis Mullenix investigated the toxicology of flouride and published her work in the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology. She then lost her job. At a meeting with dental industry representatives immediately following her presentation, Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
“Studies in mainstream peer-reviewed medical journals and government reports now document the fact that serious harms are associated with exposure to small amounts of fluoride-including hip fracture, cancer, and intellectual impairment. ” ~ David Hill
The NZ Drinking Water Standard specifies fluoride dose rates of 0.7 ppm. In most parts of the world the naturally occurring rate in river and aquifer water is between 0.05 and 0.3 ppm. My understanding is that raw water in New Zealand falls very much to the lower end of that range. Realistically the amount of fluoride in NZ drinking water does not dramatically exceed what might occur naturally.
Once the fluoride is dissolved into the water it is fully ionically dissociated so that the argument around whether the solid form of the chemical prior to being added is naturally occurring or not seems pretty irrelevant.
Plus as various people have said, after 50 years of fluoridation there are no apparent or dramatic health status differences between those areas that are dosed and those that are not. I agree very strongly that diet has a far stronger impact on dental health.
Having said that I’m pretty agnostic around whether adding fluoride to water is a good idea or not. Personally I strongly recommend that if you decide you don’t want it, then getting a good filter for your kitchen and making sure you change the media at the recommended intervals is the right thing to do. Or organise some tank water off your roof; or find a trusted, local natural aquifer source for the small amount of water that you need to actually drink.
And if you’re smart you can have a dollar each way and use fluoridated toothpaste.
And that’s really where the debate ends … is it not?
I’m with the RedMcFlock; I thought it unusual that the referendum was the status quo and the council to remove, then I remembered which banana republic I was swinging in. 😀
Realistically the amount of fluoride in NZ drinking water does not dramatically exceed what might occur naturally.
No, flouridated supply can be around three to seventeen times higher than your natural levels of 0.05 to 0.3 ppm.
The resulting highly concentrated solution is then added to the water, to produce the desired concentration of 0.85 milligrams per litre (mg/L), or parts per million (ppm). http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/water-supply/methods
The real issue is why fluoridation was introduced in the first place. If you take a look at the players involved than it becomes pretty clear that it is not a good idea.
The real issue is why fluoridation was introduced in the first place. If you take a look at the players involved than it becomes pretty clear that it is not a good idea.
my italics
Actually, if you look at the teeth, the reason is clear. And I thought you wanted to deal with facts, rather than arguing the person.
Seriously? Your link starts with a classic example of the old if almost nobody else does it, we must be doing the wrong thing argument.
32% of us kids might be overexposed to fluoride. It might depend on the geological source of the water supply – some of the areas of the US could be above WHO spec, others below (so those latter areas might fluoridate artificially). The article puts that figure just after the “can’t control the dose” section, and does not distinguish whether the fluorosis levels correspond with artificial fluoridation or naturally higher-than-WHO-recommended levels. This is misleading.
Additionally (and most hypocritically given your plea for arguments based on facts) there is almost no meaningful attempt at showing the sources for the article’s various assertions of fact.
Filed in the “vaccination causes autism” category.
I bet you knew that the OECD report into the local bring-and-buy recommends removal of the tax concessions for petroleum exploration; “the (approx) 46M in concessions across 700-800M of revenue distorts investment decisions.”
1.1M people in New Zealand are eligible for fully-funded ‘flu immunization.
That according to the head of the NZ Principals Foundation, “increasing numbers of schools are facing increasing numbers of behavioural challenges” (sadly, school-boy rugby practice can be fatal).
More Anarchic Philosophy of Science words from Paul Feyerabend.
Media and Speaker stifling democracy. When a
party leader so deviates from his election
promises, that there is a huge decline in
membership numbers, that even in private
Dunne was unable to redress them, leading to the
inevitable de-registration. It doesn’t help that
Dunne first statements about his party problem
was not to the media, or to his membership, but
to the regulator, as if he sought them out rather
than his duty to inform them. So why isn’t
the media investigating why so many members have
dropped from United Future? Why is the Speaker failing
to affirm the rights of memberships of party to
give their party a mandate (and withdraw it).
Will the Speaker now step in when Shearer or Key
is rejected by their party and allow them a
go over, an attempt to get new members to join
their party, and right the obvious injustice Dunne
feels that he has lost the confidence of his party?
What right does the Speaker have to inject himself into
the running of a political party? None.
Surely the Speaker can no longer retain the support of
parliament to act impartially. A grotesque abuse of power
by the speaker.
The New Zealand Private Prosecution Service Limited will file an Information on Monday the against Honourable Peter Dunn under Section 228 (b) of the Crimes Act 1961 for dishonestly using a document (The Registration of the United First Political Party) to continue to receive funding of $100,000 a year as the leader of a Registered Political Party and $20,000 as a MP for a registered party.
Section 228(b) reads:
228 Dishonestly taking or using document Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who, with intent to obtain any property, service, pecuniary advantage, or valuable consideration,—
(a)dishonestly and without claim of right, takes or obtains any document; or
(b)dishonestly and without claim of right, uses or attempts to use any document.
The decision of the Speaker is irrelevant is open to interpretation. United First is not registered and an honest person would write to the speaker and ensure the funding stopped until the party is reregistered. Any funding received ought to be refunded or donated to charity.
If Dunn was receiving a WINZ benefit and did not meet the criterion it would be immediately stopped and WINZ would take recovery and prosecution action.
It is in the interest of our Parliamentary System of Democracy that the situation ought to be challenged in Court.
Graham Mc Cready
Informant for NZPPS Ltd”
______________________________________________________________________________
On 31 May 2013 the Electoral Commission board cancelled the registration of the United Future New Zealand (United Future) party at the party’s request in accordance with section 70 of the Electoral Act 1993.
______________________________________________________________________________
(1)The Electoral Commission shall cancel the registration of a political party at the request of one of the persons specified in section 63(1) if satisfied that the request for cancellation is made by the applicant on behalf of the party.
(1A)The provisions of section 64, with any necessary modifications, apply to every request under subsection (1).
(2)The Electoral Commission shall cancel the registration of any political party on being satisfied that the number of current financial members of the party who are eligible to enrol as electors has fallen below 500.
(2A)For the purposes of exercising the powers conferred on it by subsection (2), the Electoral Commission may require a political party to supply to it a list of the party’s current financial members within any reasonable time that the Electoral Commission specifies.
(3)Where the Electoral Commission cancels the registration of any political party, it shall, as soon as reasonably practicable, and in any event not later than 10 working days after the date of the cancellation,—
(a)give, where the cancellation was effected under subsection (1), written notice of the cancellation to both the applicant for cancellation and the secretary of the political party:
(b)give, where the cancellation was effected under subsection (2), written notice of the cancellation to the secretary or the last-known secretary of the political party, which written notice shall set out the reasons for the cancellation:
______________________________________________________________________________
“Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands. …. He is a very steady and sensible man, most of the time…”
—Loathsome S.S. counsel and former ACT MP Stephen Franks, lionizing the disgraced Peter Dunne.
(The Panel, Radio NZ National, Friday 7 June 2013)
See also….
No. 16: Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months”
No. 15: Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
No. 14: Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
No.13: Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”
No. 12: U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
No. 11: Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
No. 10: Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
No. 9: NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
No. 8: Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question”
No. 7: Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”
No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.” /open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594
No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”
No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”
NEWSFLASH!!!!
Peter Dunne to Head the Owen Glenn Inquiry
It is believed that Peter Dunne’s appointment will bestow much needed credibility on the beleaguered Owen Glenn Inquiry into Child Abuse, which has been hemorrhaging experts like a stuck pig hemorrhages blood.
Documentary on Allende and Chilean history, before Allende took his life, facing fascist attack by the military and police, directed by Pinochet (acting on US and CIA direction):
If only NZers would understand the scale of what this country has been sold out on. The real danger this country has been facing, by having overseas commercial interests take over, buy assets and companies, to take over control of the economic and with that social situation.
No wonder workers in NZ are afraid, scared, bow and back down day in and out, are not daring to show solidarity, it is an atmosphere of utter fear and intimidation amongst workers here. There is NO freedom and respect, and most workers are cowards, due to intimidation by the corporate and other employers.
So you want to continue the prostitution of New Zealand, the sellout and whoredom for workers, beneficiaries, women and men, children and all that struggle to get a voice, vote National and Natzi government.
We ask you to change your mind and tune, if you are a Natzy, go away, go to Kiwiblog, the other reactionary blogs, but we want future and progress, fairness, decency, democracy and justice. I have nothing more to say, good luck.
Waiting for the election is annoying, National needs to be turfed out I agree. National wants to turn New Zealand into some US backwater state, full of christian fundies that are manufactured in National’s charter schools to see no truth, write no truth, and hate the truth. In 2014 NZ gets to decide whether to be apathetic and let NZ turn into the toilet* of the South Pacific, or a legitimate nation that cares about its people.
*After National has mined every park, and poisoned every river.
I wish to impregnate it into the minds of those that need impregnating, like so well presented by Nathalie Cardone, got it or not? Wake up and take a bloody stand for humanity and base line democracy, thanks!
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by Phil Duncan This past week has marked the 50th anniversary of the beginning of the Stonewall Inn riots in Christopher Street, New York, the event generally regarded as kicking off the gay liberation movement. Quite a few articles have ...
Southland - land of coal-burning dairy farmers - has become the first region in the country to explicitly vote against declaring a climate emergency. Their reason? They didn't want to "devalue" the word "emergency". Its an argument addressed powerfully in ...
New Zealand has a problem with police chases: officers going after fleeing drivers like rabid dogs, without any consideration for proportionality or public safety, often with fatal results. And according to an in-depth article in the Guardian today, the UK ...
Welcome to another heaping helping of research publications related to climate change drivers and mechanisms, the effects of climate change and how we might yet grope our way into systems approaches to dealing with the mess we're making, despite ourselves. ...
Holly Lawford-Smith is a senior lecturer in political philosophy at the University of Melbourne. She’s currently writing a book about radical feminism. This article appeared on Feminist Current Academics should be standing together in defence of universities’ fundamental values: the ...
The Otago Daily Times has an in-depth article about the future of wind energy in New Zealand, and it is looking bright:The news that wind will play the leading role in New Zealand’s energy future was put up in lights ...
If the sight of schoolkids striking for a future has been filling you with hope, good news: they want you to join them on September 27:Students will take to the streets again demanding action on climate change, and this time ...
The People's "Friend": In this masterpiece of revolutionary propaganda, the homicidal political psychopath, Jean-Paul Marat, has been transformed by Jacques-Louis David, the French Revolution's most accomplished artist, into a martyred hero of the ordinary people of Paris. Thanks to Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, ...
The principle of one person, one vote doesn’t apply for local elections. In fact, you don’t even need to be a person to have voting rights. Welcome to the ratepayer roll. While the ratepayer roll accounts for less than 1% ...
I have been working my way through a 47,000 document tranche of declassified US government communications related to Argentina and the “Dirty War” of 1976-83. I grew up in Argentina in the period leading up to the March 24, 1976 ...
To express concern about foreign ownership and control in New Zealand is often to invite accusations of xenophobia and economic illiteracy. It is worthwhile, therefore, to rehearse the grounds for that concern, and to explore the various forms it can ...
It must be a day ending in Y because the Guardian - remember when it used to be a good paper1 - is running another spurious story about Corbyn's leadership being threatened over anti-Semitism.The headline the Guardian runs is: "MPs tell ...
A chronological listing of news articles posted on the Skeptical Science Facebook Page during the past week, i.e., Sun, Jun 23 through Sat, June 29, 2019 Editor's Pick When Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez met Greta Thunberg: 'Hope is contagious'Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and ...
When people slate the current Government for taking too long on certain issues, or not getting everything right, just check the outrage and quit helping National manufacture consent for their decade of Disaster Economics and much more. Bill couldn’t ...
Robots could soon replace many low-skill jobs, such as President of the United States. US Presidential hopeful and doomsday prophet Andrew Yang went to extreme lengths to make a point in the first round of Democratic primary debates today, replacing ...
More people have died in the shower this year than will die in a KiwiBuild home. KiwiBuild home owners are experiencing a surprise windfall this month, as the price of their houses have begun to rise dramatically, due to growing ...
First way – the state, Keynesian demand management, the working class as the base of support. Second way – free-market, reduce the scope of the state and cut taxes, relative indifference to social justice. Third Way – well that's the ...
E15 is a London-based housing campaign that arose from the eviction of a group of young working-class mothers from a homeless hostel in 2013. Cat Wiener, through her work with the Revolutionary Communist Group, helped get Focus E15 up and ...
Going Upstairs: If we accept the LGBTQI+ community’s untrammelled right to advance their understanding of love, then we must also accept Israel Folau’s right to articulate his own simplistic and inadequate interpretation of the Christian religion.ONE OF THE FIRST things ...
So, some Labour MPs and peers have written Corbyn a letter complaining about the re-admission of loudmouth MP Chris Williamson, who had been suspended over allegations he made anti-Semitic comments.Never mind the Guardian's typically biased headline that Corbyn is facing ...
When the NZDF was asked to release US information on Operation Burnham which would have revealed how the villagers died, they refused, claiming that the US objected. So, Nicky Hager and Deborah Manning requested it in the US, under that ...
Statistics New Zealand has released a new report on New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions, with a sectoral breakdown shown how much is caused by different sectors of the economy. The data is crystal clear: half our emissions are caused by ...
A new digital platform aims to make it easier for small businesses to access services from multiple government agencies, leaving them more time to focus on their own priorities. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Minister for Small Business Stuart Nash ...
Million-dollar start to gun collection eventsPolice Minister Stuart Nash says a solid start has been made to the gun buyback and amnesty after the first weekend of community collection events. “Gun owners will walk away with more than ...
Police Minister Stuart Nash has praised Police and gun owners after the first firearms collection event saw a busy turnout at Riccarton Racecourse in Christchurch. “Police officers and staff have put a tremendous effort into planning and logistics for the ...
Seventy-eight new Police constables are heading out to the regions following today’s graduation of a new recruit wing from the Royal New Zealand Police College. Police Minister Stuart Nash says the record high number of new Police officers being recruited, ...
The Motor Trade Association is welcoming the release of the Government’s new draft road safety strategy. MTA Chief Executive Craig Pomare says the association is pleased to see vehicle safety has been made a priority in the Road to Zero ...
The Department of Conservation continue to repeat the same old story about attacks on staff and how it is affecting their role in protecting our precious wildlife. NZ herald https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=12249704 ...
The government's silence on the fact that the country's second-largest milk processor is on the brink of becoming 25% Chinese Government owned has been deafening. ...
School Strike 4 Climate NZ welcomes the coalition Government’s endeavour to take action on reducing agricultural emissions but is disappointed at the weak stance that the Government has taken on the issue. ...
The Department of Internal Affairs (DIA) has issued a formal warning under the Anti-Money Laundering and Countering Financing of Terrorism Act 2009 (AML/CFT Act) to seven reporting entities within the Regus Management Limited (RNZML) designated business ...
The Northland Regional Council (NRC) has voted to exclude all GM/GE precautionary provisions in its regional plan, despite years of community engagement showing support for such protection. There is a sense of betrayal following the way the NRC Chairman ...
New Zealand’s ‘mission-driven’ charities working in international aid are showing early signs of changing the way they work, in particular prioritising building the capacity and resilience of local communities to do their own development. ...
Teachers will have to wait until 11 September for pay increases won as part of their collective agreement negotiations settled in June, according to an update sent to schools today from Novopay. ...
July 16 (BusinessDesk) - Energy Minister Megan Woods says the government “won’t die in a ditch” if its goal of 100 percent renewable electricity generation isn't reached by 2035. ...
The Electricity Networks Association (ENA) is welcoming the Government’s response to the Interim Climate Change Committee (ICCC) Report released today. Graeme Peters, chief executive of the ENA, said one of the key recommendations, endorsed by the ...
An article* published this month in the Journal of Health Organization and Management raises questions over the way health board members are elected and whether the boards are even needed. ...
NZEI Te Riu Roa's kindergarten teacher members will vote on a proposed settlement to their collective agreement after four days of negotiations with the Ministry of Education and kindergarten employers. ...
Vector has today welcomed the ICCC’s report on Accelerated Electrification . Vector agrees that accelerating the electrification of transport and process heat will play a major role in reducing the country’s greenhouse gas emissions. Initiatives to ...
The New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union is calling on the Porirua City Council to cancel its underwriting of a proposed Canadian-led privately owned adventure park slated for public land after a similar project created a huge liability for Christchurch ...
Youth climate change campaigners Generation Zero welcome the Interim Climate Change Committee’s (ICCC’s) reports: Accelerated Electrification and Action on agricultural emissions ; which were finally released by the Government today, almost three months ...
Fish & Game New Zealand notes the announcement today that the Government and the intensive agriculture leadership have reached a ‘historic consensus’ and are exploring using a formal sector-government agreement instead of bringing agriculture ...
The independent Interim Climate Change Committee’s report on Accelerated Electrification was released today by the Minister for Energy and Resources, Hon Dr Megan Woods. ...
The independent Interim Climate Change Committee’s report Action on agricultural emissions was released today by the Minister for Climate Change, Hon James Shaw and the Minister of Agriculture, Hon Damien O’Connor. ...
Please find attached embargoed copies of two media statements from the Interim Climate Change Committee http://img.scoop.co.nz/media/pdfs/1907/Embargoed_Interim_Climate_Change_Committee_Accelerated_electrification_MEDIA_STATEMENT.pdf ...
Greenpeace Executive Director, Dr Russel Norman, has reacted with disbelief that the Government’s latest climate proposal includes an option for dairy to voluntarily deal with their emissions over the next six years. ...
This week’s “Youth Parliament” is an expensive waste of time that promotes taxpayer-funded junketeering, says the New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union . “We shouldn’t be training kids on the joys of the trough,” says Taxpayers’ Union spokesperson ...
Infrastructure Minister Shane Jones admitted on Q+A tonight that the state of New Zealand’s infrastructure planning is “dismal” and the government needs to get on with building “rather than writing more reports about it.” ...
DairyNZ has released its submission on the Zero Carbon Bill and is calling on the Government to revise the methane target in the Bill to one that does not put at risk New Zealand’s world-leading dairy sector. Farm profit could ...
July 15 (BusinessDesk) - Foreign Minister Winston Peters will have bi-lateral meetings with two of US president Donald Trump's most hawkish defence and security advisers in a five day trip to Washington D.C. ...
Youth climate change campaigners Generation Zero are calling for Members of Parliament to show political courage as the Zero Carbon Bill goes through the crucial Select Committee process. ...
Annual net migration was provisionally estimated at 50,200 (± 800) in the year ended December 2018 compared with 52,600 in the previous year, Stats NZ said today. ...
New Zealanders have the opportunity to contribute to the government’s Review of Retirement Income Policies, including questions around Superannuation and KiwiSaver. Submissions are now open for the Review, being run by the Commission for Financial ...
Yesterday at Mataatua Marae the Tamaki Makaurau Electorate of the Māori party congratulated Rangi Mclean who was appointed to the Vice president Tāne role of the party nation-wide executive. ...
The funding crisis facing the disability sector has become more urgent following the disturbing news that the Ministry of Health will not increase contract prices for providers this year, the New Zealand Disability Support Network said today. ...
The growing number of working poor is an alarming indicator that the regulatory Minimum Wage does not cut it said Closing the Gap spokesperson Peter Malcolm. ...
Historic hui gives overwhelming agreement for a Māori Inquiry The inquiry into state run Oranga Tamariki will be led by whanau, kaimahi and Māori leaders. ...
Drug infiltration into our maximum security prisons is putting prisoners and staff at unnecessary risk, and one tool that would be of huge benefit is a full body scanner. ...
The Socialist Equality Group is hosting a protest rally in Cuba Street, Wellington (at the intersection with Left Bank) on Sunday 14 July at 2:30pm to oppose the persecution of WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and whistleblower Chelsea Manning, and to ...
Simon Shepherd: The National Party proposed its own medicinal cannabis scheme last year. Its Health Spokesperson, Michael Woodhouse, says it shouldn’t have been ignored. So I began by asking him what his problem is with the government’s proposed regime. ...
Countries around the world are also dealing with medicinal cannabis. Britain legalised it last year, but the uptake has been slow. Neurologist Professor Mike Barnes wrote the report that convinced UK lawmakers it was a good idea. He's coming here ...
Simon Shepherd: Green MP Chloe Swarbrick’s name has become synonymous with drug reform, so following years of campaigning for safe, public access to medicinal cannabis, what does she think of the government’s new plan? Well, Chloe Swarbrick joins me ...
Social Credit is calling for a Government enquiry into the Nelson Marlborough District Health Board over it's handling of the Sarah Preece attack in 2017 and its subsequent report. ...
An overwhelming response sees Māori from across the country pouring into Māngere today. The call for action came from Māori leadership concerned with the practice of tamariki removals by the state. Whānau, experts, and highly skilled Māori from ...
Responding the announcement of a $2.37 million loan from the Provincial Growth Fund to a Northland berry farm, New Zealand Taxpayers’ Union spokesman Louis Houlbrooke says: “Why couldn’t this business get a loan from the bank? If no bank was ...
Multicultural NZ is delighted to congratulate former Gisborne Mayor, Meng Foon, who has been appointed as New Zealand’s Race Relations Commissioner. ...
Award-winning broadcaster, Waatea has been selected by North Island Whānau Ora Commissioning Agency to exclusively livestream the historic Māori-led Inquiry on Oranga Tamariki. ...
“The Peace Movement sends an urgent call to Winston Peters to reject any US demands for New Zealand participation in patrolling the Persian Gulf and Straits of Hormuz. New Zealand should have nothing to do with any war on the ...
More than 50 senior non-commissioned officers from militaries in the Asia-Pacific Region gathered this week in Auckland for a conference hosted by the New Zealand Army. ...
The addition of an absurd Treaty of Waitangi clause in the Plant Varieties Act raises the question whether “Maoridom” will claim royalties on new plant varieties, Hobson’s Pledge spokesperson Casey Costello said today. ...
What are we going to do about District Health Boards? News this week that the Government is looking at a further bail-out of cash-strapped Boards to help reduce their deficits has raised afresh questions about the sustainability of the current ...
Today is the 5oth anniversary of the launch of Apollo 11, the first spaceflight to land humans on the Moon. Astronomer Richard Easther looks back. One of my earliest memories is standing with my father on the ...
In a world of racist tweeting presidents, climate crisis and cricketing travesty, what you need in your life is this palliative conversation about Dunedin’s Baldwin Street losing its crown as world’s steepest street to Ffordd Pen Llech in WalesThe slope ...
Last night on The Block NZ, something incredible happened: James Reid from The Feelers showed up. Every now and again, something completely unexpected happens on reality television that shakes you awake from your slack-jawed couch coma. It’s that jolt of electricity ...
Sam Brooks, lifelong gamer, lost himself on a virtual battlefield in the days after his mother’s death. Here, he reviews a book by a kindred spirit: Lost in A Good Game: Why We Play Video Games and What They Can ...
Laura Vincent reviews Golden Boy, a new sitcom from Three skewering small town New Zealand and the colourful characters who populate it.From Twin Peaks to all the shows that copied Twin Peaks, small towns have long been fertile ground for television ...
Bernard Hickey explains why New Zealand's housing market bubble has become armour plated and why it is proving almost impossible to burst, despite the predictions of overseas experts. ...
The government’s reluctance to front up about support for mentally traumatised mosque shooting survivors has shined a spotlight on the limitations of ACC, writes RNZ’s Veronica Schmidt.The difficulty with being held up as a symbol of empathy and compassion is ...
Pacific Media Centre Newsdesk Two school girls from East Java, Aeshnina Azzahra (alias Nina), 12, and Zahira Zade, 11, have sent hand-written protest letters to US President Donald Trump over the dumping of toxic plastic waste in Indonesia. The ...
Jacinda Ardern needs to make a stand for the things she says her Government believes in, despite the public preference for strong, dominant and often otherwise repugnant politicians. ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Today’s contentClimate change Zane Small (Newshub): Jacinda Ardern defends ‘laughable’ ...
Good morning, and welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Options for getting agriculture into ETS unveiled, leading academic savages billion trees programme, and OIO approves Westland Milk sale. A historic day for climate change policy in New Zealand, with agriculture ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sumeet Walia, Senior Lecturer and Vice Chancellor’s Fellow, RMIT University What better way to build smarter computer chips than to mimic nature’s most perfect computer – the human brain? Being able to ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Anne Twomey, Professor of Constitutional Law, University of Sydney Debates about constitutional change in Australia inevitably raise the poor success rate of referendums. Only eight out of 44 attempts have ever succeeded ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Whitehouse, Bennett Chair of Autism, Telethon Kids Institute, Univeristy of Western Australia, University of Western Australia Therapies given to infants before they receive a diagnosis of autism may lead to important ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emily Fobert, Research Associate, Flinders University Clownfish achieved worldwide fame following Finding Nemo, but it turns out these fish don’t do so well in the spotlight. Our research, published in Biology Letters, ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Pollack, Associate Professor, University of Sydney Someone we know recently told us about a team-building event that proved anything but. The chief executive who arranged it loved mountain biking. So he ...
Oskar Howell travels to Otorohanga to interview Danielle Hawkins, author of When It All Turns to Custard, over a delicious two-course home-cooked lunch. ...
Dreamed of traveling long term, but at a loss about how to afford it? Here’s how Kristin Hall and her partner managed it (spoiler: involves a lot of brown rice and cabbage).*Scroll to the end for an important note about ...
Daniel Ziffer’s rollicking account of Australia’s Royal Commission into banking is a jaw-dropping laundry list of scandals, heartbreaking stories, and ‘gotcha’ moments.The Haynes Commission was set up in 2017 to inquire into and report on misconduct in the Australian banking ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Harry Hobbs, Lecturer, University of Technology Sydney Queensland Deputy Premier Jackie Trad has announced that the state will begin a conversation about a pathway to treaty with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mair Underwood, Lecturer in Anthropology and Sociology, The University of Queensland Months after a public breakup with her husband, the politician Barnaby Joyce, Natalie Joyce made news when she displayed her “new” ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brittany Huber, Postdoctoral researcher, Swinburne University of Technology Most (80%) Australian parents worry children spend too much time with screens. But what children are doing on and off screen matters more than ...
A local photographer has posted emails from Warner Brothers NZ requesting they work “unpaid” on Married At First Sight NZ. A wedding photographer has posted emails from Warner Brothers NZ on Reddit after the production company requested that they work for ...
How ANZ Bank fought for more than three years to keep its role in New Zealand’s biggest Ponzi scheme quiet and stop a regulator telling out-of-pocket investors the details. ...
Sam Brooks reviews Mean Mums, the new sitcom from Three that manages to make putting a great show together look easy.When it premiered as part of Three’s Pilot Week last year, I called Mean Mums the winner of the bunch. Nearly ...
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Michelle Grattan, Professorial Fellow, University of Canberra Last week on this podcast we talked to Ken Wyatt about the government’s plan for a referendum – hopefully this parliamentary term – to recognise ...
Imagine if we treated our native birds with as little care as we do our precious fish stocks, writes ecologist Stella McQueen.Earlier this year, 900 at-risk native mudfish were relocated to make way for a wastewater development. But despite a ...
For when toast or cereal just doesn’t cut it, but you don’t have the time or inclination to do any actual cooking, try this. If I ever cook rice (or grains of any kind) for dinner, I often make extra to ...
For their latest ageing episode, Hilary Barry joins the On the Rag team to talk wrinkle creams, menopause and why people still think she is Jeremy Wells’ mum. This month’s episode of On the Rag is all about ageing. Time ravages ...
The Auditor-General's investigators are to look into the National Party's complaints about taxpayer funding being used to underwrite KiwiBuild homes. ...
Its rolling slate of cringey jokes and meaningless trivia is a familiar sight wherever there’s a captive audience – but what the hell is Giggle TV? Johnny Crawford looks into the tweet-stealing, wife joke-telling phenomenon.If you’ve spent any time in ...
COMMENTARY:By Yamin Kogoya in Auckland More than 50 years of “torture” has been inflicted on the Papuan people by the Indonesian government. With the complicity of Western governments, great fear has been put in the hearts and minds ...
It’s landlords who are finding themselves out in the cold as property managers begin to walk away from clients who haven’t insulated their rentals, reports Don Rowe.Two weeks after the first of New Zealand’s healthy homes deadlines, property managers are ...
Event date and time: Friday, July 26, 2019 – 17:00–18:30JOIN US for this Pacific Media Centre‘s smorgasbord “launch” mid-winter fono and celebration for: + Two new documentaries on climate change and media freedom + The ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Tuesday’s contentForeign affairs and trade Barry Soper (Newstalk ZB): US ...
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.New Zealand Parliament Buildings, Wellington, New Zealand.Monday’s contentOranga Tamariki, state care of children, adoption Bonnie Sumner (Newsroom): Māori ...
Open mike 07/06/2013 
Earlier this year, the Ministry of Justice conducted a public consultation exercise on whether to hold a review of the Official Information Act (this replaced their previous plans to hold a secret consultation with handpicked people). 285 people submitted on ...53 mins ago
2 hours ago
On Sunday July 7, Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Associate Health Minister Julie Anne Genter announced their intention to review the Ministry of Health’s Funded Family Care policy and repeal Part 4Aof the 2000 NZ Public Health and Disability Act. These are festering injustices ...1 day ago
Belle is a lovely fifteen year-old border collie who belongs to our friends and neighbours at Bryan’s Beach, Michael and Judy Corboy. Belle, in her old age, can hardly see or hear, but – as a constant participant at social ...1 day ago
Later this month, thousands of people are expected to march to parliament as part of the #HandsOffOurTamaraki movement. At its heart, the movement is about preserving whānau and demanding that the state stop removing children from their whānau, hapū and iwi. ...2 days ago
by Gearóid Ó Loingsigh The recent statements made by the former FARC commander, Carlos Lozada (legal name Julian Gallo), where, from his seat in Congress, he praised the Colombian Army demonstrate how low the farianos have sunk. Lozada began by ...3 days ago
A Woman’s Place is on the Podium was a public meeting in London on 10 July to discuss women’s sports and the impact of transwomen competing against women. The venue was sold out with a packed hall of 750 people. ...3 days ago
An occasional series where I will ponder allegations of anti-Semitism directed at the British Labour Party and its members.In this case, we are thinking about an allegedly anti-Semitic image shared by a Labour Party member. Its origins appear to be ...6 days ago
1 week ago
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Welcome to another heaping helping of research publications related to climate change drivers and mechanisms, the effects of climate change and how we might yet grope our way into systems approaches to dealing with the mess we're making, despite ourselves. ...2 weeks ago
The People's "Friend": In this masterpiece of revolutionary propaganda, the homicidal political psychopath, Jean-Paul Marat, has been transformed by Jacques-Louis David, the French Revolution's most accomplished artist, into a martyred hero of the ordinary people of Paris. Thanks to Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook, ...2 weeks ago
The principle of one person, one vote doesn’t apply for local elections. In fact, you don’t even need to be a person to have voting rights. Welcome to the ratepayer roll. While the ratepayer roll accounts for less than 1% ...2 weeks ago
I have been working my way through a 47,000 document tranche of declassified US government communications related to Argentina and the “Dirty War” of 1976-83. I grew up in Argentina in the period leading up to the March 24, 1976 ...2 weeks ago
Image Credit: Blog Writing Tips. I notice a few regulars no longer allow public access to the site counters. This may happen accidentally when the ... 2 weeks ago
When people slate the current Government for taking too long on certain issues, or not getting everything right, just check the outrage and quit helping National manufacture consent for their decade of Disaster Economics and much more. Bill couldn’t ...3 weeks ago
Robots could soon replace many low-skill jobs, such as President of the United States. US Presidential hopeful and doomsday prophet Andrew Yang went to extreme lengths to make a point in the first round of Democratic primary debates today, replacing ...3 weeks ago
More people have died in the shower this year than will die in a KiwiBuild home. KiwiBuild home owners are experiencing a surprise windfall this month, as the price of their houses have begun to rise dramatically, due to growing ...3 weeks ago
3 weeks ago
Statistics New Zealand has released a new report on New Zealand's greenhouse gas emissions, with a sectoral breakdown shown how much is caused by different sectors of the economy. The data is crystal clear: half our emissions are caused by ...3 weeks ago
A new digital platform aims to make it easier for small businesses to access services from multiple government agencies, leaving them more time to focus on their own priorities. Prime Minister Jacinda Ardern and Minister for Small Business Stuart Nash ...1 day ago
New Zealand driver safety advocate and motor sport legend Greg Murphy says better driver training must be part of Road to Zero. ...1 hour ago
Today is the 5oth anniversary of the launch of Apollo 11, the first spaceflight to land humans on the Moon. Astronomer Richard Easther looks back. One of my earliest memories is standing with my father on the ...2 mins ago
In a world of racist tweeting presidents, climate crisis and cricketing travesty, what you need in your life is this palliative conversation about Dunedin’s Baldwin Street losing its crown as world’s steepest street to Ffordd Pen Llech in WalesThe slope ...36 mins ago
Last night on The Block NZ, something incredible happened: James Reid from The Feelers showed up. Every now and again, something completely unexpected happens on reality television that shakes you awake from your slack-jawed couch coma. It’s that jolt of electricity ...56 mins ago
Sam Brooks, lifelong gamer, lost himself on a virtual battlefield in the days after his mother’s death. Here, he reviews a book by a kindred spirit: Lost in A Good Game: Why We Play Video Games and What They Can ...1 hour ago
Laura Vincent reviews Golden Boy, a new sitcom from Three skewering small town New Zealand and the colourful characters who populate it.From Twin Peaks to all the shows that copied Twin Peaks, small towns have long been fertile ground for television ...1 hour ago
Bernard Hickey explains why New Zealand's housing market bubble has become armour plated and why it is proving almost impossible to burst, despite the predictions of overseas experts. ...2 hours ago
The farming industry says it's more logical that it leads the transition to agricultural emission pricing than having a new centralised levy. ...2 hours ago
International dairy prices have risen for the first time in two months. ...2 hours ago
The government’s reluctance to front up about support for mentally traumatised mosque shooting survivors has shined a spotlight on the limitations of ACC, writes RNZ’s Veronica Schmidt.The difficulty with being held up as a symbol of empathy and compassion is ...2 hours ago
Pacific Media Centre Newsdesk Two school girls from East Java, Aeshnina Azzahra (alias Nina), 12, and Zahira Zade, 11, have sent hand-written protest letters to US President Donald Trump over the dumping of toxic plastic waste in Indonesia. The ...3 hours ago
Jacinda Ardern needs to make a stand for the things she says her Government believes in, despite the public preference for strong, dominant and often otherwise repugnant politicians. ...3 hours ago
Editor’s Note: Here below is a list of the main issues currently under discussion in New Zealand and links to media coverage.
Good morning, and welcome to The Bulletin. In today’s edition: Options for getting agriculture into ETS unveiled, leading academic savages billion trees programme, and OIO approves Westland Milk sale. A historic day for climate change policy in New Zealand, with agriculture ...6 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Sumeet Walia, Senior Lecturer and Vice Chancellor’s Fellow, RMIT University What better way to build smarter computer chips than to mimic nature’s most perfect computer – the human brain? Being able to ...6 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Andrew Whitehouse, Bennett Chair of Autism, Telethon Kids Institute, Univeristy of Western Australia, University of Western Australia Therapies given to infants before they receive a diagnosis of autism may lead to important ...6 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Emily Fobert, Research Associate, Flinders University Clownfish achieved worldwide fame following Finding Nemo, but it turns out these fish don’t do so well in the spotlight. Our research, published in Biology Letters, ...7 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Julien Pollack, Associate Professor, University of Sydney Someone we know recently told us about a team-building event that proved anything but. The chief executive who arranged it loved mountain biking. So he ...7 hours ago
Oskar Howell travels to Otorohanga to interview Danielle Hawkins, author of When It All Turns to Custard, over a delicious two-course home-cooked lunch. ...8 hours ago
Highland dancing's lone male competitor, Angus Hendry, dominated the sport's national championships in Marlborough. ...8 hours ago
Auckland's lava caves offer a glimpse of volcanic activity on this planet and others - but they may be at risk. ...8 hours ago
Jacinda Ardern’s comments jar with advice over extending ACC cover to mentally injured terror attack victims. ...8 hours ago
Dreamed of traveling long term, but at a loss about how to afford it? Here’s how Kristin Hall and her partner managed it (spoiler: involves a lot of brown rice and cabbage).*Scroll to the end for an important note about ...8 hours ago
Daniel Ziffer’s rollicking account of Australia’s Royal Commission into banking is a jaw-dropping laundry list of scandals, heartbreaking stories, and ‘gotcha’ moments.The Haynes Commission was set up in 2017 to inquire into and report on misconduct in the Australian banking ...8 hours ago
The latest immigration figures paint a picture of headaches and heartbreaks. ...8 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Harry Hobbs, Lecturer, University of Technology Sydney Queensland Deputy Premier Jackie Trad has announced that the state will begin a conversation about a pathway to treaty with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander ...19 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Mair Underwood, Lecturer in Anthropology and Sociology, The University of Queensland Months after a public breakup with her husband, the politician Barnaby Joyce, Natalie Joyce made news when she displayed her “new” ...19 hours ago
The number of residency applications are outstripping the Government's lowered planning targets by thousands. ...19 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Brittany Huber, Postdoctoral researcher, Swinburne University of Technology Most (80%) Australian parents worry children spend too much time with screens. But what children are doing on and off screen matters more than ...20 hours ago
A local photographer has posted emails from Warner Brothers NZ requesting they work “unpaid” on Married At First Sight NZ. A wedding photographer has posted emails from Warner Brothers NZ on Reddit after the production company requested that they work for ...20 hours ago
Source: The Conversation (Au and NZ) – By Matthew Yau, Adjunct professor, College of Healthcare Sciences, James Cook University The Administrative Appeals Tribunal recently granted a woman with multiple sclerosis the right to have a sex therapist paid for under ...20 hours ago
How ANZ Bank fought for more than three years to keep its role in New Zealand’s biggest Ponzi scheme quiet and stop a regulator telling out-of-pocket investors the details. ...21 hours ago
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Gordon MacLauchlan getting cranky in his dotage;
Scorns classic sitcom, but endorses shallow fringe “academic”
The Panel, Radio NZ National, Wednesday 5 June 2013
Jim Mora, Gordon MacLauchlan, Chris Wikaira
Jim Mora’s chat show only rarely springs to life. Most of the time it consists of a small roster of “commentators”, few of them particularly well informed or even pleasant, commenting in anodyne fashion about trivial matters, or in a doggedly flippant way about serious matters. Every now and then, however, someone steps out of line and shows a bit of backbone; on such rare occasions, The Panel becomes something more than a sadly wasted opportunity.
A few examples stand out for me; significantly, they all occurred several years ago. Anyone who heard these encounters will remember them, for they sizzled with the drama of forbidden conflict, and in each case reduced a powerful and arrogant opponent to either spluttering rage or sullen silence or (in one case) a groveling backdown.
1.) Chris Trotter took the gloves off one afternoon and launched into special guest Mike Moore, challenging his vacuous neo-liberal rhetoric, and provoking Moore to ditch his nice guy mask and snarl on air, “You little [expletive deleted]!”
2.) Gordon Campbell supplies not one but TWO highlights: on one occasion confounding the bullying ex-copper Graham Bell and on another confounding the jolly back-slapper Richard Griffin. On each occasion Campbell simply pointed out that they did not have a clue what they were talking about. A humiliated Bell retreated into a glowering, resentful silence, while Griffin made a groveling apology and retraction on the spot.
3.) Bomber Bradbury one afternoon reduced National Party eminence grise Michelle Boag to teeth-gnashing fury when he rejected her assertion that we need to bribe the rich to stay in New Zealand, and then went on to dismiss her ability to pronounce on economic policy.
4.) Gordon MacLauchlan suddenly lost patience with the hard right Nevil Gibson glibly declaring that the role of city councils was merely to pick up rubbish. “That’s RIDICULOUS, Nevil,” he said, and proceeded to school the doctrinaire dunderhead about the necessity for and the complexity of council functions, carefully established over generations, of public services like libraries, parks and festivals. Nevil Gibson simply did not have a coherent response to offer, and lapsed into a silence closely resembling stupidity.
Since those halcyon days, sadly, much has changed. Gordon Campbell has never appeared again since his blocking of Graham Bell, and Bomber Bradbury was banned outright for the crime of criticizing the prime minister. Chris Trotter goes out of his way to be conciliatory and “measured”; he might as well be asleep. And Gordon MacLauchlan has, alas, never recaptured that fire which enabled him to slice, dice and fillet Nevil Gibson with such panache.
But still, when I learned that Gordon MacLauchlan was a guest on The Panel this afternoon, I hoped against hope that he would recapture some of that past form. Alas, it was not to be….
Three decades ago, Gordon MacLauchlan took it upon himself to compile and edit The Acid Test: an Anthology of New Zealand Humorous Writing. One would think that someone who presumed to undertake such a task would have something of value to contribute; in fact anyone who reads his acerbic little introductory essay will realize that his observations on comedy are pedestrian and obvious; like another self-styled “curmudgeon”, Tom Frewen, when it comes to criticizing comedy, MacLauchlan lacks something crucial: a sense of humor. As we will see after Chris Wikaira’s “Soapbox” contribution, MacLauchlan is also a fogeyish, fustian fellow, full of fear and loathing of Māori, or at least those Māori who don’t know their place.
First, though, let’s see him display his erudition and judgement on the subject of television comedy….
JIM MORA: What else is the world talking about?
SUSAN BALDACCI: We have another survey today, Jim!
JIM MORA: Another highly important survey! Ha ha ha ha ha!
SUSAN BALDACCI: Well, actually, this one’s a list! They’ve asked people which are the ten best-written television shows in the whole history of television.
MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha!
SUSAN BALDACCI: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
MORA: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!
SUSAN BALDACCI: Ha ha ha ha ha! Well, it turns out the top two are The Sopranos and Seinfeld.
GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: [fervently] Oh yes!
MORA: Oh yes, The Sopranos and Seinfeld! Yes, yes, they’re brilliant!
SUSAN BALDACCI: And in third place was The Twilight Zone.
MORA: Oh! The Twilight Zone was third, was it?
SUSAN BALDACCI: [with barely concealed irritation] Y-y-yes.
GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: Are there any British shows on the list?
SUSAN BALDACCI: Yes, but it’s a long way down the list—Upstairs, Downstairs.
MORA: Oh, Upstairs, Downstairs is on the list, is it?
SUSAN BALDACCI: [through clenched teeth] Yes it is on the list.
GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: There are a LOT of brilliant British shows! Monty Python, for instance.
MORA: Monty Python? Surely it’s a bit too anarchic and crazy for mainstream tastes, isn’t it?
GORDON MacLAUCHLAN: [with deep reverence] Actually, Python is just BRILLIANT writing! It’s complex and well written. It is writing of the highest order! Python is brilliant! It leaves Cheers for dead.
That foolish declaration was the first indication this afternoon that MacLauchlan’s judgement is in serious decline. But there was even worse to come….
The Soapbox….
JIM MORA: Time to find out what have our Panelists have been thinking. Chris Wikaira, what’s been on your mind?
CHRIS WIKAIRA: I was astonished and perturbed to see Canterbury Law School academic David Round working himself up into a lather the other day about ideas like Māori “co-governance” with Pakeha. I get fed up with this alarmist hand-wringing, that always comes to nowt.
MORA: [slowly, to indicate serious thought] But that’s not the core of objection to co-governance is it?
CHRIS WIKAIRA: Is it not?
MORA: [quietly, to indicate sincere concern] People are worried that it is undemocratic.
In publicly contesting the utterances of the odious David Round, Wikaira was calling out one of the most virulent racists in not only academia, but in the whole country. As a Māori, and in particular as a Māori in the National Party, Wikaira will, sadly, be accustomed to being the target of glib, ill-informed and hostile rhetoric. But even Chris Wikaira would not have been prepared for Mora’s display of bloody-minded mischievousness and deliberate obtuseness. As Mora ground on with his reiteration of David Round’s fantasy, insinuating without any evidence that there are many “people” who think the very notion of Māori rights is “undemocratic”, Wikaira became more and more exasperated. There was a palpable sense of helplessness as well as anger; what CAN you do when the host is pouring forth such nonsense? What Chris Wikaira SHOULD have done, of course, was pin Mora down at the moment he started to repeat Round’s nonsense, and asked him to name the “people” who “worry” like that. But Wikaira was clearly not expecting a nominally liberal and ostensibly pleasant radio broadcaster to actually REPEAT the extremist rhetoric, he (Wikaira) was refuting.
And then to compound things, silly old Gordon MacLauchlan weighed in on the side of David Round as well. He announced that what Round had said might actually have something going for it. It turns out that MacLauchlan has come across something that has confirmed his deep and principled and long-held suspicions about all this Maori rights stuff. What he had discovered was an article written by an Auckland University “Critical Theory” professor called Elizabeth Rata.
An obscure and unrecognized denizen of the flakiest, least respected of all university departments, Elizabeth Rata has for years labored away under a rock, presumably vaporing on about absurdly recondite Lacanian theory or something else that nobody, including her, either understands or cares about. Late last year, Rata figured that it was time to venture forth from the Crit. Theory common-room and write something that would strike a chord with people—especially people too stupid or too old to know they were being conned by a “Critical Theorist” who had never written anything that had ever made a lick of sense. Stupid people, in other words, like ACT party theoreticians, Epsom voters and old Pākehā “liberals” like Gordon MacLauchlan. The gist of her article was this: the “politicization of grievances” by Māori has “set New Zealand back.” If ONLY they would sit down and be QUIET! And, …. well, that’s it.
It was pretty much exactly the same as the infamous race-baiting crap written for Don “Brethren Cash” Brash to read out at that Orewa Rotary dinner in early 2004. Or the vile stuff that “Sir” Paul Holmes used to phone in for his ridiculous Herald column. MacLauchlan, who in many ways is a liberal, would be horrified to think that’s what he was endorsing, but that is in fact what he was endorsing. The old curmudgeon has obviously been looking for some kind of academic validation for his basic intolerance of those noisy and unpleasant Maori radicals who make New Zealand so different from the pleasant 1950s and 60s, when MacLauchlan was in his prime. And when that validation comes in the form of an attack on Māori written by an impressively credentialed “Critical Studies” academic—one with a Māori name to boot—he fell on it like it was Holy Writ.
Chris Wikaira did manage to rally somewhat, pointing out that such dismissive views as those of Round and Rata lack not only empirical evidence but also lack intellectual rigor. He reminded McLauchlan that there was nothing new about co-governance or any of the other concepts that bigots like Round pretend to be frightened by; that Māori had operated in partnership with the Crown on projects up and down the country; and that co-governance was a sensible and inevitable result of negotiations under the Treaty of Waitangi. Of course, MacLauchlan knew that what Wikaira was saying was not just common sense, but simply the truth. But by naïvely endorsing that Elizabeth Rata excrescence, he had climbed too far out on a rotten limb to be able to climb down with any dignity. His response was sullen and ungenerous….
MacLAUCHLAN: [sniffing resentfully] Yeah, I guess, yeah.
WIKAIRA: [conciliatory, reasoning tone] I mean, co-governance is just what it’s going to evolve into.
MacLAUCHLAN: [affecting to be unmollified] Well, hrrrrumph, Elizabeth Rata wrote a thought-provoking article. It’s an interesting point of view, actually. It’s a very interesting point of view.
And then, just when you think it’s time he was turned over to the tender care of the same Home for the Terminally Bewildered that incarcerates Garth “Gaga” George, MacLauchlan comes up with something lucid and morally unimpeachable….
MORA: All right, Gordon, what’s been on YOUR mind lately?
MacLAUCHLAN: I’ve been mildly disconcerted by this Trans-Pacific partnership. It’s very, very disturbing. It’s profoundly anti-democratic, and it has people worried in the United States just as much as in New Zealand. Congress has been shut out of the process—but big business has access to the draft documents. Ron Kirk, until recently Obama’s top trade advise, says it has been kept secret because if the public understood it, it would lead to vast public anger. This is seriously anti-democratic and I am seriously disturbed by this.
MORA: [light-hearted tone] These corporate people are pretty smart, they’ve been to charter schools, Gordon!
MacLAUCHLAN: [unimpressed] Huh!
Thanks Morrissey! Saves us listening to the pretentious pomposity, and vastly more entertaining.
That’s a lot of work Morrisey to give us this report. You may get tired of it when the merry go round just keeps turning and the usual suspects bob up and down. What’s the next attraction at the circus?
prism, my friend, just remember this: He who is tired of The Panel is tired of life.
A few minutes ago I listened to that repulsive crank Stephen Franks lecturing his fellow guest (Sapna Samant) about the importance of language, and the danger of using words like “slavery” to describe people who feel obliged to work long hours for their corporations. Of course, Franks was implying that HE (i.e. Franks) is a rigorous and serious thinker; he’s not.
Right now Franks is pontificating about the irresponsibility of the poor. “I can’t see how giving poor people money is going to solve the problem of eating rubbish food,” he opined.
He has no time at all for public health programs, especially ones targeting childhood obesity. It all comes down to “personal responsibility”, which means that we’re all alone in the world, and the do-gooders are no use at all, just a bunch of busybodies. “All I see is wittering on from the social industry,” he snarls.
Sapna Samant and Noelle McCarthy are clearly appalled by him, and are politely challenging his assumptions. Franks is not accustomed to this; he is obviously used to lording it over the underlings in his law practice—one of whom is the hopelessly lightweight Jordan Williams, another occasional Panel regular. But a couple of sharp women are beyond him; he will not engage in serious discussion.
When I stop feeling disgusted every time I hear this canting hypocrite sound off, I’ll know it’s time to hang up my boots.
Morrissey mon ami you put things so well. It’s painful though to keep exposing the dregs of our intellectual society. It’s a dirty job but you feel you’re the one to do it. Rather you than me. It’s bad for mental health I think. Depressing.
well Mozza, I tire of ‘The Panel’, yet am not tired of life, yet. Thank Goodness for all the neat stuff one may learn from The Standard (and links) in a day is wot I say. Tally Ho!
An interesting perspective Morrissey. Almost a script for satire. Though they are entitled to their opinions aren’t they? We can disagree with what they say and be angered by their utterances especially that Bell fellow. The concern about TPP was well said and echoes what many here must fear.
I guess Mr Mora is trying to play the neutral referee but like the Speaker in the House his probable bias leaks through.
An interesting perspective Morrissey. Almost a script for satire. Though they are entitled to their opinions aren’t they?
They most certainly are, and it’s incumbent on the rest of us to point out when they are telling lies or just talking nonsense. That’s what Messrs Trotter, Campbell, Bradbury and MacLauchlan have done so effectively in the past; what is disturbing is the fact that two of those voices are no longer allowed onto the programme.
We can disagree with what they say and be angered by their utterances especially that Bell fellow. The concern about TPP was well said and echoes what many here must fear.
I agree with you. Gordon MacLauchlan is an intelligent analyst and an effective speaker. On most things.
I guess Mr Mora is trying to play the neutral referee but like the Speaker in the House his probable bias leaks through.
Unfortunately, he’s more Craig Joubert than he is Pierluigi Collina.
Occasionally a panelist still slips under the radar with a worthwhile contribution on Jim Mora’s programme. Michelle A’Court hit the mark at 7.15 minutes yesterday on http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/afternoons/audio/2557709/the-panel-with-michele-a'court-and-michael-deaker-part-2.asx when commenting about Nisbet’s cartoons and child poverty.
sadly, when polled by Campbell Live (or Seven Sharp) following this cartoon (and I listened to Nisbet interviewed on RNZ @ 5pm Checkpoint, so his ‘agenda’ was clearly concurrent), 77% responded “Yes, that the cartoon depicted reality”.
now it may be just my weird psychological composition, yet I cannot listen to very much RNZ overall; Morning Report, Midday, Checkpoint and the authoratative INTERVIEWEES is enough, ‘specially seeing as Hauraki play such excellent rock and Alice In Chains released a new album, “The Devil Put Dinosaurs Here”…
Queens of the Stone Age have also dusted off the mixing desk 😎
strongly suggest warming up the amps before cranking volume to 11
Michelle A’Court hit the mark….when commenting about Nisbet’s cartoons and child poverty.
She did, but in the pre-show (before 4 o’clock) she embarked on an unhinged denunciation of the Australian DJs who are being blamed by some fools for the suicide of Jacintha Saldanha.
There are still lots of interesting and worthwhile contributions on The Panel. And, for all his faults, which I do like to lampoon, Jim Mora himself is an intelligent and witty broadcaster.
Clever writ:
“I’m Not Sorry”
Conspiracy theories….watch (outside of) Bildeberg live on a mainstream papers site http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10103054/Bilderberg-2013-the-worlds-most-secretive-conference-live.html#disqus_thread
The photo says it all, we dont know what they do and they wont tell us. What I would wager is that if one of the great criminal figures of the 20th century (Kissinger) is attending then it wont be for the good of you and me.
I’m sure the LP supporters are thrilled the UK Labour Party is continuing its strong history of attendance!
I’m sure the discussions will center around, altruistic, humanitarian endevours!
For mine, after decades denying the group existed, having been outed officially over the past 10 years or so, its likely little more than a distraction, designed for the media beat up!
Still its a *nice opportunity, for many of histories, worst criminal elements/crime families to get together, and with the likes Kenneth Clarke representing the Uk political paedophile wing, expect to hear him trumpeting for further decreases in sentence penalties, shortly after the *conference* is completed!
But won’t someone please think of the grass verge!
Interesting analytical report by the Guardian’s Bildeberg watcher, Charlie Skelton, of what happens when local politics meets global power.
When an organisation/network moves from secret to semi-secret, can it still be called a conspiracy? Or is it a political organisation/gathering, or just another right wing think tank?
The article covers how Bildeberg manipulates terrorist scaremongering and hides behind the “Great Wall of Watford”; how the police and local authorities are performing charity work for Goldman Sachs in working to protect the meeting; and the Bildebergers’ timid attempt to connect with the media:
Many in the UK have long held the opinion that Watford is the most cogent excuse for nuclear first strike. I concur, today would be a very good day to do it.
I daresay that is overkill; a 2000lb bomb should be sufficient.
Its Watford I am talking about, the place that sold their soccer club to Elton John, who promptly sold it again, says it all. The Bilderbergers would only be “collateral” damage (in their own terms). Iamgine going down in history as being the richest prick on Earth and dying in Watford. How embarrassing. Dreadful!
Yeah, terrorists like Occupy Wall St protestors.
maybe they plan to hold back the Elbe.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2001/sep/24/weather.climatechange
Reckon there is much more the *climate change* debate, than people want to deal with!
Tell me again about the plane you saw flying from the west coast of the south island which arrived in Auckland before turning around and going back again.
That was a great story
“Reckon there is much more the *climate change* debate, than people want to deal with!”
Muzza, that article is about weather. What’s the connection to climate change?
@Weka:
ChemtrailsfluorideHAARPilluminati obviously! WAKE UP SHEEPLE!
And so forth…
Hi Weka,
The connection, could well be the geo-engineering *research/programmes/operations*, which has, as documented, been going on for many, many decades, and that is only what has made the public domain!
Discussing subject matter, but not caring to factor in, what may/may not be a key contributor to climate change, is what creates vapid exercise!
People can only truly come to a decision point, or a point of view/opinion etc, if all as much information, which can possibly be tabled, is factored in!
The mentality, which TC elucidates nicely, above, in his comments, is not the level of engagement from which understanding can be gained
“The mentality, which TC elucidates nicely, above, in his comments, is not the level of engagement from which understanding can be gained”
Says the guy who doesn’t to provide any evidence for his assertions and accuses everyone else of avoiding questions.
No no, muzza said it’s been documented as going on for many decades. That’s his evidence.
Muzza once told me that he spotted a plane flying unusually.
It left the west coast of the South Island, flew up country on a strange bearing, approached Auckland in an odd way, turned around and headed back.
He is yet to explain how he managed to see this from a single location outside employing some kind of ‘far-sight’ or omnipresence.
No, that’s not even close to what I explained, it’s so far from the post I made, the only points you got right, was that planes were invovled, and I mentioned the West Coast!
Go find the post, if you’re that interested in showing how weak your
constitutionmemory is!Muzza: “Have you flown into Auckland well off the west coast of the south island, turned around done laps, then headed west again!!!”
How did you see this, Muzza? Were on the plane?
What has that got to do with the links on geo-engineering?
FYI – The planes were flying some sort of circuit, off the West Coast, they were not heading to Auckland, (I was) that I was aware of. The turning I refer to was once the planes had circled, the planes then headed west towards Australia. No idea where the next landing point, may have been!
I was in the front row , window seat, left side, of a flight back to AKL, where I saw this.
Interestingly, I saw exactly the same behaviour, on April 29, flying to Sydney, off the East Coast of Australia, planes flying circuits, non commercial!
Yes I have photos!
There is no possible way you could known the planes were doing laps between the West Coast and Auckland.
Lanth just because the likes of yourself and TC, are too scared/lazy to go and do some reading, don’t get all smart arse with your comments, that is the actions of a snivelling little cissy, just as your comment the other day was, reuesting investigating Penny Bright’s, banned status,!
Links have been posted, on these boards, many times, perhaps you missed them, perhaps you don’t know how to use a simple search engine, either way!
Stop being a sniveller, and get into some reading, exapand your understanding, instead of responding with nonsense!
You are such a sniveling, facile person Muzza.
I am extremely well read on both the fluoride and chemtrails conspiracies and have debunked the shit out of your stupid posts and you can’t mount a single fucking argument in support of yourself.
Um, you mean to say you’ve never heard of cloud seeding before? They’ve been doing it since 1903, and it’s never proved particularly succesful, but it certainly doesn’t do what you’re suggesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cloud_seeding
No. Pop, that’s not what I’m saying, and you’re seemingly smart enough to understand that!
In case you can’t operate a search engine either, here is one to get to started
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/graphic/2012/jul/17/geoengineering-world-map
Lordy. A really uninformative map. Look, just because some forms of geoengineering have been trialed with patchy results does not mean that a vapour trail from a jet is anything other than the usual wingtip vortices created when air flows across the wings of subsonic air as a side effect of lift.
http://contrailscience.com/why-planes-make-vapor-trails/
With the Ikaroa-Rāwhiti by-election coming up, I thought I’d check to see how the Maori roll count compares with the general roll. The last time I did this was off 2005 election results, and had to be calculated by hand (I’ve probably still got the pages of working around somewhere – in one of many old boxes of uni papers that I’m never going to sort through, but haven’t yet discarded). After an hour of eye-glazing percentage calculation, this morning I found the following page on the electionresults site: 2011 Election stats. I really wish I’d found it earlier.
To outline the main points: 2.19% of maori roll votes were designated informal in 2011, compared to 0.80% of the general roll, or in other words; a maori vote is 2.7 times more likely to be regarded as informal than a general vote (which is why I stay on the general roll). Ikaroa-Rāwhiti is the worst maori electorate for informality at 2.51%, compared with 0.43% for Epsom; the least informality on the general roll – 5.8 times more likely!
It’s even worse for special votes; 17% of maori roll special votes were disallowed in 2011. So my advice for Ikaroa-Rāwhiti voters is to make sure you are enrolled to vote, and don’t cast a special ballot. Party organizers should also make sure they have reliable observers at every vote count.
Not sure what I’m doing wrong with the link it’s supposed to connect to: http://www.electionresults.govt.nz/electionresults_2011/e9/html/e9_part9_1.html
Any idea on what is wrong with the informal votes?
You’ll have to follow the link, I’ve closed that tab a while back (good luck finding a glossary that tells you the precise distinction between; “informal”, “disallowed”, & “invalid”, votes; it eluded me). When it gets more wintery, I may get around to printing those lists out and doing a more thorough analysis. If there’s not a snap election before then of course.
Masupial points out that there is much work to do; with repairs, and the little Basupial too: Life may intervene. I’d probably be aiming at a post rather than an open mike comment if I was to put in that amount of work. Statistics do tend to bore people though.
I’ve got Libre Office on the comp, but have only used the Word component. If I can work out how to create and export graphs from the spreadsheet, then I may be able to create something that won’t make everyone’s eyes glaze over. Correlation of; Party, & Electorate, vote, with; geographical location, roll type, and; ballot disallowing; would be most interesting.
Unless anyone has already done the work and can post a link? That would save a lot of time!
How easy is it to have an informal vote? If you tick the one you want and put crosses in the other boxes, or actually cross out the others – does that wipe your vote?
If you tick the wrong box and then realise it and cross that out and tick the one you actually want – is that a spoiled vote?
If you draw a line though all the ones you do want and rick your choice?
Or you leave your choice unticked with all the others crossed out?
I think that in the few moments that voters have to do their voting, that there is room for spoiling the vote amongst new voters and those who aren’t in the habit of writing and reading regularly. Many people probably do a lot of watching and listening but filling out forms brings them out in boils. Does me anyway.
So it could be that the various parties run a pre-election talent night where the pollies all gather and briefly talk and show everyone overhead presentations of the voting papers and method – there could be a few jokes about the other parties to bring some humour into the political process. After that have some singers and music and cakes and tea and fruit juice. The voters need to connect the process with community and fun and worthwhile to them.
You’re not allowed to produce any material which could be interpreted as instructions how to vote a certain way on a ballot paper.
CV What not a simple graphic introduction that could tick each box one after another down the sheet or randomly. That’s too precious if not allowed. Especially when electioneering close to the election is allowed. Also polling sampling before closing time.
One of my ideas is also to have a family aimed gala at polling stations with balloons for kids. Let’s get them used to being involved with elections. But I suppose that would be ‘treating’. I think probably. And these are examples of how our democracy is suffering in not promoting itself amongst those who most need it, but don’t understand the value of interaction themselves and exerting their voting power for the best results for themselves and the country.,
These are good ideas and certainly worth pursuing.
Toby Manhire indulges in a bit of cabbage boat Charter School academy satire:
… and so it continues….
And ends thus:
karol
+2
Very good with no doubt lots of hints on practical political studies of smirking, creative name-calling, lying with a straight face plus old and new drinking songs and whatnot.
Thanks for those gems.
I for one would like to see the fluoridation debate focused on ARGUMENTS (based upon FACTS and EVIDENCE) – rather than just personally attacking those who are opposed to fluoridation?
In my experience, those who rely on ad hominem (personal) attacks rather than arguments based on FACTS and EVIDENCE, don’t actually have a ‘considered’ opinion?
(Meant of course, in a caring way 🙂
Seen this?
http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/is-water-fluoridation-in-the-best-interests-of-public-health
(Has some FACTS and EVIDENCE supporting the anti-fluoridation position 🙂
Penny Bright
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate – who does NOT support fluoridation of public water supplies.
Water Care Services state, they take the position to add flouride to AKLs water supply, based on scientific evidence from the Minitry of Health, via a mandate by the council.
Perhaps you can dig through that one further, Penny!
If your really worried about it why don’t you get a water filtration system and even that they subsidised for poorer people who don’t want it in there water. Like the fact you can buy non-iodised salt if you don’t want it.
If you do choose to use a domestic water filtration system, for goodness sake make sure you change the filter media at the recommended intervals.
Leaving a filter in for too long simply sets up a dangerous reservoir of all the junk and pathogens that you were trying to remove; and eventually they will ‘break through’ in high concentrations and cause far more harm than any good you achieved in the first place.
!!!! This is really important. !!!!
Some places have been fluoridated 50+ years, some places have never been fluoridated or were formally fluoridated but have now ceased.
If there was any real public health risk you would be able to show conclusively, given the time frame and population size, a difference in health between these group. A significant statistical difference.
No such evidence has ever been shown, collated or corroborated.
Therefore, you can safety say there is no real risk from Fluoride in the water supply.
As is the position of the UN, WHO, CDC and major public health organisations.
Your argument could well be reversed, if no such evidence has ever been shown, collated nor corroborated how then can there be a scientific justification ‘for’ fluoride being put into water,
Claims that fluoride has saved the teeth of the nation, given what you assert, may just be unsubstantiated claims with no basis in scientific fact…
You are completely correct b12.
For a primer on published and well-referenced studies relating to the clear positive effects associated with fluoride management in public water supplies, I’d suggest looking at some of the many citations here.
I’d suggest not relying on a source with a history of political bias (eg Connolly on AGW)
Dr. Phyllis Mullenix investigated the toxicology of flouride and published her work in the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology. She then lost her job. At a meeting with dental industry representatives immediately following her presentation, Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
http://fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/980100_mullenix.htm
lol
You do realise that it’s customary, when referring to a peer-reviewed article, to link to that article rather than a tinhat propaganda site?
I think you’ll find that her paper related to extremely high levels of fluoride, not the levels that would result from the recommended levels. If you could understand it, of course.
The Hamilton City Councillors who voted to ban fluoridation no doubt are avid readers of those tinhat sites. Idiots.
nope, they’re politicians who foresaw nutbars screaming “baby killer” at the hustings during local body elections, and saw an opportunity to fob it onto central government. Although to be fair they have a point – but “someone else should help” is never an excuse for watching while nobody helps.
Ah, the good old “conspiracy theorist” chestnut, as applied by those whose world would fall apart if their beloved govcorp was involved in it.
Thanks to McFlock and The Contrarian and anyone else who has derided the anti-fluoridation brigade.
I can’t be bothered to join in the debate. Not worth it. Suffice to say that as a former School Dental Nurse (a long time ago admittedly), the anti-fluoridationists are talking through a large black hole in their heads. Thought of digging out my old text books to re-acquaint myself with the minutia of the subject but what’s the point. You can’t argue with fanatics.They are no different to flat earthers, climate change deniers, conspiratorial crackpots like the 9/11 theorists, or those who believe in aliens from outer space living on Earth.
I just hope those idiots on the Hamilton City Council – and any others who remove the fluoride from their water – are around in 20 to 30 years time when today’s children (including their own) take to them with metaphorical meat-axes for being such gullible fools. Those kids are going to be put to no end of trouble and expense trying to save their teeth – something generations over the past few decades have been able to avoid.
Just like parents who notice that their kids have become less active after visiting the nurse are talking through a large black hole in their heads, right?
Looks like fanatics on both sides to me Anne. And writing people off as conspiratorial crackpots is no different than the Right writing you off as a radical far lefter who wants to destroy society via communism. I also haven’t bothered joining in this round, because it looks like the middle ground is impossible when both sides are so entrenched, and abusive.
It’s not when they ARE conspirational crackpots, don’t be so sanctimonious
Am fairly sure that Anne just called everyone who doesn’t support fluoridation of water supplies a fool and deluded. Sounds like an extreme position to me.
“when the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, thats amore’ “
What are you insinuating? 😀
Because Wikipedia invented all of those studies just to make you look like a tit?
If it did, then it has failed admirably.
well, it was a redundant attempt anyway
And the UN, the WHO, the AMA, the NHS, and just about everyone whose opinion can be taken seriously…
“No such evidence has ever been shown, collated or corroborated.”
Except for the evidence that you ignored on Kiwiblog, of course.
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/06/hamilton_city_council_votes_against_science_and_people.html/comment-page-1#comment-1153844
I didn’t ignore it, it just isn’t relevant.
Someone ‘saying’ something and someone ‘demonstrating’ something are different things.
“Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
So she says it, that’s all well and good. But please show me the data which supports her comment. Where is the comparison which shows the statistical IQ difference between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?
Without that the comment meaningless and ca be disregarded because it is unsupported conjecture.
It is relevant because it is factual and because it applies to the subject matter of the health effects of fluoridation.
The meaning of Mullenix’s statement can be inferred from the context:
Then in 1994, after refining her research and findings, Dr. Mullenix presented her results to the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology, considered probably the world’s most respected publication in that field. Three days after she joyfully announced to the Forsyth Institute that she had been accepted for publication by the journal, she was dismissed from her position. What followed was a complete evaporation of all grants and funding for any of Mullenix’s research.
But of course when that meaning implies conspiracy many people find it to be unacceptable.
Put up or shut-up.
Where is the comparison which shows the statistical IQ difference between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?
“Put up or shut-up.”
Not my job. If you think that statistical IQ differences are relevant then it’s your job to show how the data supports your position.
“Not my job.” actually if you are going to assert something that ridiculous, it kinda is. But I feel generous
http://www.checkmatescientist.net/2013/02/water-fluoridation-may-have-no-effect.html
Please keep on trying to shift the burden of proof Populuxel, it does makes you look desperate.
What shifting? You’re the one going against the established mainstream scientific consensus, the onus is on you to back it up.
Burden of proof is on you.
Chop, chop
so you have nothing? Thought not.
got fruit-cake for supper.
“Not my job. If you think that statistical IQ differences are relevant then it’s your job to show how the data supports your position.”
No, it is your job.Show me the harm. If you think that statistical IQ differences are relevant then it’s your job to show how the data supports your position.
I’m Waiting……
All I know is that people are 10-15 IQ points less intelligent today than in the late 19th century. That’s a catastrophically massive difference. Whatever has happened to us, we are measurably dumber than our great great grand parents.
And yet that is completely contrary to the established Flynn effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect
Yep it is.
btw when you study the US political speeches of the 19th and early 20th century – the sentence construction, vocabulary and conceptual communication is far in advance of what we see today.
“the sentence construction, vocabulary and conceptual communication is far in advance of what we see today.”
That is fucking stupid
I have to interject here with a protest, as a member of the first generation to be systematically vaccinated, fluoridated, vitaminised and iodised as a matter of public health policy, that I never suffered from the feeling that I was a mental sluggard compared to my grandparents born before 1910. This despite the fact that I probably absorbed a hell of a lot more environmental lead and petrochemicals during my working life than they ever would have. I’d also wager that my children, likewise administered with all of the above are at least as intelligent as I am. If you’re looking for a culprit for lowering intelligence levels amongst other things, surely tetra-ethyl lead would have to be a more likely candidate than the other things you mention?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraethyllead#Toxicity
No sly comments from you wags in the cheap seats thanks..
Perhaps not so stupid TC.
http://sunlightfoundation.com/blog/2012/05/21/congressional-speech/
Today’s Congress speaks at about a 10.6 grade level, down from 11.5 in 2005. By comparison, the U.S. Constitution is written at a 17.8 grade level, the Federalist Papers at a 17.1 grade level, and the Declaration of Independence at a 15.1 grade level. The Gettysburg Address comes in at an 11.2 grade level and Martin Luther King’s “I Have a Dream” speech is at a 9.4 grade level. Most major newspapers are written at between an 11th and 14th grade level.
I appreciate you making my point for me, TC.
Joe90 – I googled and it seems like Obama’s first inaugural speech was written at a mere grade 9.3 level.
In fact, this interactive chart displays the trend over the centuries better than anywhere else. Looks like George Washington’s addresses were at an equivalent grade 20 level.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/feb/12/state-of-the-union-reading-level
So there, Mr Contrarian.
George Washington only needed to speak to the top quarter (and educated) proportion of the population, at a wild guess (slaves, etc being out of the mix). Not to mention that the more archaic the language used, the more likely that an automated content analyser won’t be able to adjust for the vernacular that the average person at the time used.
that link to an examination of Jared Diamond’s theses is helpful Populuxe1; I have glanced over his books and read a couple of reviews; Hayseed I know, only so many hours in the glass.
Where’s the link gr888?
in the ‘Slane sums up thread’. race ya.
This one? http://m.guardian.co.uk//books/2013/feb/03/jared-diamond-clash-tribal-peoples
Yep weka. night.
do you read the entire articles Pop?
like, possibly the end of progression?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flynn_effect#Possible_end_of_progression
well, the freakin’ politicians certainly are! (overview of Collins attitude to International Prisoner Transfers, where NZ trails the way on todays OM).
“All I know is that people are 10-15 IQ points less intelligent today than in the late 19th century. That’s a catastrophically massive difference. Whatever has happened to us, we are measurably dumber than our great great grand parents.”
There could be so many reasons for that….
thats in the ‘end of progression’ link aboove
Yep, I read that. It’s interesting, but no comprehensive. I’d want to see different cultures measured, and cross cultural comparisons done. Then I’d want to look at the huge range of possible variables – diet, environment, chemicals, stress, differences in electromagnetic fields etc etc.
There are many things that affect brain function. One of my picks would be low fat diets (haven’t looks closely at the dates though to see if they correspond). We need quality fats for good brain function (plus lots of other nutrients).
true on quality fats. My intuition, that the factors you list, diet, stress, chemicals etc are dumbing people down in the West, particularly through media and marketing.
btw, How do you discern to return to an earlier thread like this? I just use the box on top-right to notice who has recently commented and where, or I go by feel; ‘sin is in, the eye of the beholder. Check out the translation of ‘fornication’ (pornea) so often thrown about by the Fundamentalists.
I use the search box for either my name or the name of the person I was conversing with 🙂 If you go to advanced search you can select comments only.
“There could be so many reasons for that”
I thought so too. I’ve never read up on it but the more I reflected on CV’s assertion about lowered intelligence levels the longer the list I came up with (off the top of my head) of counters to his argument.
no requirement to knock the booster seats. The P-47 is a pretty good ship, “I was thinking ’bout my baby and lettin’ her rip”, hardened up those laps, now Daddy ran the whiskey in a big-block Forge, “I learned a thing or two from ol’ Charlie don’t ya know, you better stay away from Copperhead Road…
…”Just the good ol boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you ever saw been in trouble with the Law since the day they was born, straightenin’ the curves, flattenin’ the hills, some day the mountain might get them but the Law never will. Yeeha!
My reading some years ago was that standard IQ tests had to be shifted upwards to maintain the average norms, because each generation was more intelligent than the last.
Yes. Mine too. But so many other things to consider as well. Which generations / eras are we talking about exactly? Who was being tested (demographic make-up)? By whom, using what standardised tests? Aiming to test for what? At what age / education level were they being tested? Many, if not most of the working class of my grandparents generation did not go beyond our form 2 level and if they needed to help support a family like my g-father who left at the end of std 4 it was even less. It seems a lot of what passes for debate on this topic here is trying to compare the apples of paradise with a pear tree struggling to survive in the Kalahari desert.
Thank you for being concise with this comment, Penny.
Oh and Penny, anything by Joseph Mercola should be ignored. He is a crank.
So is Mercola is a crank for quoting Dr. Paul Connett, an environmental chemist, or is he a crack because he opposes forced medication?
http://foodmatters.tv/articles-1/is-water-fluoridation-in-the-best-interests-of-public-health
“First of all, water fluoridation is very bad medicine,” Dr. Connett says, “because once you put it in the water, you can’t control the dose. You can’t control who gets it. There is no oversight. You’re allowing a community to do to everyone what a doctor can do to no one, i.e., force a patient to take a particular medication.”
See above:
Someone ‘saying’ something and someone ‘demonstrating’ something are different things.
Why is there no health deviations between fluoridated and non-fluoridated communities?
Why can’t you show that?
You really don’t see why Mercola is a crank? Did you read the links?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola#HIV_and_AIDS
You didn’t answer the question.
Is Mercola a crank for quoting Dr. Paul Connett, an environmental chemist, or is he a crank because he opposes forced medication?
Or is there another reason you accuse him?
Edit: I’m not going to trawl through Wikipedia’s bullshit looking for your (non-existent?) argument.
” I’m not going to trawl through Wikipedia’s bullshit looking for your (non-existent?) argument.”
How do you know it’s non-existent without looking, you idiot?
Go Google “eretome”, moron.
lol
just did – came up with nothing related to fluoridation, mercola or anything in the english language.
Google says there’s no such thing
Funnily enough, if I wanted an evaluation of whether something is “bad medicine” I’d ask a medical doctor, not an environmental chemist.
But that could just be a boo-boo. His views on HIV alone pushed him well over the “crank” edge, imo.
Fair enough, you’re entitled to your opinion. But isn’t the point of this to show whether or not there are public health risks in fluoridation of water supplies? And isn’t the history of the debate an indication that the wider political context is relevant?
“But isn’t the point of this to show whether or not there are public health risks in fluoridation of water supplies?”
Which you have consistently failed to do.
“Which you have consistently failed to do.”
So you say. But your refusal to address the facts speaks volumes.
Rather than actually address the facts, you divert with a secordary issue in an attempt to shift the burden of proof. My argument does not depend on statistical differences between communities.
What explanation do you have for Mullenix’s dismissal other than a pro-fluoridation conspiracy?
who’s diverting now?
Two comments ago the topic of discussion was mercola being a crank.
I’m not diverting. You expressed an opinion, and I have no interest in arguing that with you.
lol
whatever.
So what are the public health risks in water fluoridation at WHO-recommended levels?
You might actually like to provide some facts to be addressed in the first place. Your argument may not depend on statistical differences between communities, but it doesn’t seem to depend on any actual evidence either.
The history of the debate shows that a large number of people in the world are paranoid scientific illiterates who are pandered to by amoral whores.
Beyond that the only relevant data is publicly available and repeatable systematic research, which indicates that fluoridation might have detrimental effects if the water supply already has high levels of fluoride.
In New Zealand we have low natural fluoride levels in the water. Hence our shit DMFT levels without fluoridation.
At least the referendum result in Hamilton. 70% for fluoridation show that the majority did listen to the science.
Pity the council overruled it!
However our “representative” democracy, especially the RW part, has a sad history of going against the interests and wishes of the people they purport to represent.
Even sadder that there are too many, who claim to be left wing supporters of the people, who are equally contemptuous of our right to decide democratically for ourselves..
“our right to decide democratically for ourselves”
You right to decide for yourselves does not extend to the compulsory medication of those who disagree with you.
Actually, in some circumstances it might.
Because the flipside is the number of kids whose teeth will rot early because their parents aren’t experts on the ideal micro-level nutrient mix humans need on a daily basis. The same reason we iodise table salt to keep thyroids healthy.
“Actually, in some circumstances it might.”
Yes, but in general when you’re talking about voters you are talking about people who are adult enough to make their own decisions.
You don’t have to be an expert on micro-nutrients to look after your kids’ teeth. A healthy diet, avoiding sugary drinks, and brushing are pretty much common sense.
AFAIK iodine toxicty hasn’t been a problem in the past.
” A healthy diet, avoiding sugary drinks, and brushing are pretty much common sense.”
And, of course, knowing what minerals and nutrients are deficient in your local water supply so your kids’ teeth rot. Then the same for zinc, folate, selenium, iodine,and damned near every other chemical beyond H2O.
edit: google “iodine toxicity”
“knowing what minerals and nutrients are deficient in your local water supply so your kids’ teeth rot”
Do you have any evidence that this is a real problem?
yes.
10 second google.
“The history of the debate shows that a large number of people in the world are paranoid scientific illiterates who are pandered to by amoral whores.”
You can’t argue the facts so you talk shit about the opposition.
“the only relevant data is publicly available and repeatable systematic research”
Testing toxicity by compulsory medication of communities is ethically unacceptable.
“fluoridation might have detrimental effects if the water supply already has high levels of fluoride.”
That argument ignores the fact that fluoride accumulates in bones and in the brain. Low dosages over a long period of time can be just as harmful as high dosages.
“Testing toxicity by compulsory medication of communities is ethically unacceptable.”
Yes. It would be. If that’s what they were doing. Which they aren’t. Your tinfoil hat is on too tight.
Comprehension fail, Populuxel. I wasn’t suggesting that they were.
But you just said it. Why say it if that’s not what you were saying?
Actually, in this case, the shittiness of nutbars like mercola is a fact relating to the “wider political context” of the discussion.
Lucky that they don’t do that then, eh. Otherwise the LD50 stats would beat heart disease as a NZ cause of death.
And it must be true because you say so. /sarc
They’re not the facts that I was referring to. The Contrarian has been avoiding the issue for days.
http://www.kiwiblog.co.nz/2013/06/hamilton_city_council_votes_against_science_and_people.html/comment-page-1#comment-1153844
Chemist Charles Eliot Perkins documented the Nazi use of flouride:
“The real purpose behind water fluoridation is to reduce the resistance of the masses to domination and control and loss of liberty.”
“When the Nazis under Hitler decided to go into Poland, both the German General Staff and the Russian General Staff exchanged scientific and military ideas, plans, and personnel, and the scheme of mass control through water medication was seized upon by the Russian Communists because it fitted ideally into their plan to communize the world.”
Dr. Phyllis Mullenix investigated the toxicology of flouride and published her work in the Journal of Neurotoxicology and Teratology. She then lost her job. At a meeting with dental industry representatives immediately following her presentation, Mullenix was bluntly asked if she was saying that their company’s products were lowering the I.Q. of children? “And I told them, ‘basically, yes.’”
http://fluoridationfacts.com/education/propaganda/980100_mullenix.htm
“Studies in mainstream peer-reviewed medical journals and government reports now document the fact that serious harms are associated with exposure to small amounts of fluoride-including hip fracture, cancer, and intellectual impairment. ” ~ David Hill
http://www.fluoridation.com/calgaryh.htm
You really fail at discerning “material published to inform” from “material published to persuade”, don’t you.
Can’t handle the truth, eh McFlock?
We’ll find out when you present some.
The NZ Drinking Water Standard specifies fluoride dose rates of 0.7 ppm. In most parts of the world the naturally occurring rate in river and aquifer water is between 0.05 and 0.3 ppm. My understanding is that raw water in New Zealand falls very much to the lower end of that range. Realistically the amount of fluoride in NZ drinking water does not dramatically exceed what might occur naturally.
Once the fluoride is dissolved into the water it is fully ionically dissociated so that the argument around whether the solid form of the chemical prior to being added is naturally occurring or not seems pretty irrelevant.
Plus as various people have said, after 50 years of fluoridation there are no apparent or dramatic health status differences between those areas that are dosed and those that are not. I agree very strongly that diet has a far stronger impact on dental health.
Having said that I’m pretty agnostic around whether adding fluoride to water is a good idea or not. Personally I strongly recommend that if you decide you don’t want it, then getting a good filter for your kitchen and making sure you change the media at the recommended intervals is the right thing to do. Or organise some tank water off your roof; or find a trusted, local natural aquifer source for the small amount of water that you need to actually drink.
And if you’re smart you can have a dollar each way and use fluoridated toothpaste.
And that’s really where the debate ends … is it not?
I’m with the RedMcFlock; I thought it unusual that the referendum was the status quo and the council to remove, then I remembered which banana republic I was swinging in. 😀
No, flouridated supply can be around three to seventeen times higher than your natural levels of 0.05 to 0.3 ppm.
The resulting highly concentrated solution is then added to the water, to produce the desired concentration of 0.85 milligrams per litre (mg/L), or parts per million (ppm).
http://www.dunedin.govt.nz/services/water-supply/methods
The real issue is why fluoridation was introduced in the first place. If you take a look at the players involved than it becomes pretty clear that it is not a good idea.
my italics
Actually, if you look at the teeth, the reason is clear. And I thought you wanted to deal with facts, rather than arguing the person.
Seriously? Your link starts with a classic example of the old if almost nobody else does it, we must be doing the wrong thing argument.
32% of us kids might be overexposed to fluoride. It might depend on the geological source of the water supply – some of the areas of the US could be above WHO spec, others below (so those latter areas might fluoridate artificially). The article puts that figure just after the “can’t control the dose” section, and does not distinguish whether the fluorosis levels correspond with artificial fluoridation or naturally higher-than-WHO-recommended levels. This is misleading.
Additionally (and most hypocritically given your plea for arguments based on facts) there is almost no meaningful attempt at showing the sources for the article’s various assertions of fact.
Filed in the “vaccination causes autism” category.
ahhh, the MMR is what done it; the mist is clearing.
It is worse than that McFlock.
The author of the article is ‘Dr’ Joseph Mercola. Or, if you like, this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola#HIV_and_AIDS
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola
[spits coffee]
Yep, he DESERVES ad hominem arguments.
(Meant of course, in a caring way 🙂
Thanks for that – I though I’d seen it all but I was wrong.
Many other countries do not put iodine in their salt either.
Because, unlike NZ, it is naturally present in their food.
I don’t think many would like the huge increase in glandular disease caused by the lack of it.
I bet you knew that the OECD report into the local bring-and-buy recommends removal of the tax concessions for petroleum exploration; “the (approx) 46M in concessions across 700-800M of revenue distorts investment decisions.”
1.1M people in New Zealand are eligible for fully-funded ‘flu immunization.
That according to the head of the NZ Principals Foundation, “increasing numbers of schools are facing increasing numbers of behavioural challenges” (sadly, school-boy rugby practice can be fatal).
More Anarchic Philosophy of Science words from Paul Feyerabend.
Is it all Matters of Substance ? or a Grandaddy of all Nature Anthems.
oooh, there’s that ‘quick buck’ mentality ag’in,
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10889005
“Career Opportunities, the ones that never knock, the only job they offer you’s ta keep you out the dock…”
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10888913
http://bowalleyroad.blogspot.co.nz/2013/06/hidden-new-zealand-version.html
Interesting idea…
well, life often imitates art.
Media and Speaker stifling democracy. When a
party leader so deviates from his election
promises, that there is a huge decline in
membership numbers, that even in private
Dunne was unable to redress them, leading to the
inevitable de-registration. It doesn’t help that
Dunne first statements about his party problem
was not to the media, or to his membership, but
to the regulator, as if he sought them out rather
than his duty to inform them. So why isn’t
the media investigating why so many members have
dropped from United Future? Why is the Speaker failing
to affirm the rights of memberships of party to
give their party a mandate (and withdraw it).
Will the Speaker now step in when Shearer or Key
is rejected by their party and allow them a
go over, an attempt to get new members to join
their party, and right the obvious injustice Dunne
feels that he has lost the confidence of his party?
What right does the Speaker have to inject himself into
the running of a political party? None.
Surely the Speaker can no longer retain the support of
parliament to act impartially. A grotesque abuse of power
by the speaker.
Hi folks!
Seen this?
“PRIVATE PROSECUTION A DUNN DEAL
The New Zealand Private Prosecution Service Limited will file an Information on Monday the against Honourable Peter Dunn under Section 228 (b) of the Crimes Act 1961 for dishonestly using a document (The Registration of the United First Political Party) to continue to receive funding of $100,000 a year as the leader of a Registered Political Party and $20,000 as a MP for a registered party.
Section 228(b) reads:
228 Dishonestly taking or using document Every one is liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 7 years who, with intent to obtain any property, service, pecuniary advantage, or valuable consideration,—
(a)dishonestly and without claim of right, takes or obtains any document; or
(b)dishonestly and without claim of right, uses or attempts to use any document.
The decision of the Speaker is irrelevant is open to interpretation. United First is not registered and an honest person would write to the speaker and ensure the funding stopped until the party is reregistered. Any funding received ought to be refunded or donated to charity.
If Dunn was receiving a WINZ benefit and did not meet the criterion it would be immediately stopped and WINZ would take recovery and prosecution action.
It is in the interest of our Parliamentary System of Democracy that the situation ought to be challenged in Court.
Graham Mc Cready
Informant for NZPPS Ltd”
______________________________________________________________________________
FACTS:
http://www.elections.org.nz/news-media/cancellation-united-future-31-may-2013
CANCELLATION OF UNITED FUTURE – 31 MAY 2013
31 May 2013 News items
On 31 May 2013 the Electoral Commission board cancelled the registration of the United Future New Zealand (United Future) party at the party’s request in accordance with section 70 of the Electoral Act 1993.
______________________________________________________________________________
THE LAW:
http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1993/0087/latest/DLM308804.html
70 Cancellation of registration
(1)The Electoral Commission shall cancel the registration of a political party at the request of one of the persons specified in section 63(1) if satisfied that the request for cancellation is made by the applicant on behalf of the party.
(1A)The provisions of section 64, with any necessary modifications, apply to every request under subsection (1).
(2)The Electoral Commission shall cancel the registration of any political party on being satisfied that the number of current financial members of the party who are eligible to enrol as electors has fallen below 500.
(2A)For the purposes of exercising the powers conferred on it by subsection (2), the Electoral Commission may require a political party to supply to it a list of the party’s current financial members within any reasonable time that the Electoral Commission specifies.
(3)Where the Electoral Commission cancels the registration of any political party, it shall, as soon as reasonably practicable, and in any event not later than 10 working days after the date of the cancellation,—
(a)give, where the cancellation was effected under subsection (1), written notice of the cancellation to both the applicant for cancellation and the secretary of the political party:
(b)give, where the cancellation was effected under subsection (2), written notice of the cancellation to the secretary or the last-known secretary of the political party, which written notice shall set out the reasons for the cancellation:
______________________________________________________________________________
Penny Bright
2013 Auckland Mayoral candidate
Might be handy to spell his name right.
That bloke McCready knows how to have fun…
United Future leader Peter Dunne has resigned as a Minister after he was found to have withheld information from an inquiry… !!!!!
LIARS OF OUR TIME
No. 17: Stephen Franks
“Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands. …. He is a very steady and sensible man, most of the time…”
—Loathsome S.S. counsel and former ACT MP Stephen Franks, lionizing the disgraced Peter Dunne.
(The Panel, Radio NZ National, Friday 7 June 2013)
See also….
No. 16: Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months”
No. 15: Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”
No. 14: Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
No.13: Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”
No. 12: U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”
No. 11: Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”
No. 10: Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
No. 9: NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
No. 8: Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question”
No. 7: Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
/open-mike-15052013/#comment-633295
No. 6: NZ Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”
No. 5: Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.” /open-mike-13052013/#comment-632594
No. 4: Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”
No. 3: John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
No. 2: Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
No. 1: Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”
“Stephen Franks, lionizing the disgraced Peter Dunne.”
I thought it was just the leonine hair he was on about.
I thought it was just the leonine hair he was on about.
Ho, ho, ho, Mr Clockie, very droll.
You should apply for a job writing gags for Dunne’s new TV chat show.
I’m not sure who should be most insulted by that. Me or Dunne?
Dunne would put together a better chat show than this fellow ever did…
http://brianedwardsmedia.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Mark-Sainsbury.jpg
I wasn’t trying to insult you, by the way.
‘s okay 🙂 . I was just going along for the fun of it…
By the by..between the two of them Sainsbury and Dunne would be able to present a truly remarkable head of hair. Maybe they should collaborate..
NEWSFLASH!!!!
Peter Dunne to Head the Owen Glenn Inquiry
It is believed that Peter Dunne’s appointment will bestow much needed credibility on the beleaguered Owen Glenn Inquiry into Child Abuse, which has been hemorrhaging experts like a stuck pig hemorrhages blood.
Salvador Allende en Mexico:
Documentary on Allende and Chilean history, before Allende took his life, facing fascist attack by the military and police, directed by Pinochet (acting on US and CIA direction):
If only NZers would understand the scale of what this country has been sold out on. The real danger this country has been facing, by having overseas commercial interests take over, buy assets and companies, to take over control of the economic and with that social situation.
No wonder workers in NZ are afraid, scared, bow and back down day in and out, are not daring to show solidarity, it is an atmosphere of utter fear and intimidation amongst workers here. There is NO freedom and respect, and most workers are cowards, due to intimidation by the corporate and other employers.
So you want to continue the prostitution of New Zealand, the sellout and whoredom for workers, beneficiaries, women and men, children and all that struggle to get a voice, vote National and Natzi government.
We ask you to change your mind and tune, if you are a Natzy, go away, go to Kiwiblog, the other reactionary blogs, but we want future and progress, fairness, decency, democracy and justice. I have nothing more to say, good luck.
Waiting for the election is annoying, National needs to be turfed out I agree. National wants to turn New Zealand into some US backwater state, full of christian fundies that are manufactured in National’s charter schools to see no truth, write no truth, and hate the truth. In 2014 NZ gets to decide whether to be apathetic and let NZ turn into the toilet* of the South Pacific, or a legitimate nation that cares about its people.
*After National has mined every park, and poisoned every river.
I wish to impregnate it into the minds of those that need impregnating, like so well presented by Nathalie Cardone, got it or not? Wake up and take a bloody stand for humanity and base line democracy, thanks!