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Open mike 07/09/2013

Written By: - Date published: 6:47 am, September 7th, 2013 - 160 comments
Categories: open mike - Tags:

Open mike is your post. For announcements, general discussion, whatever you choose.

The usual rules of good behaviour apply (see the link to Policy in the banner).

Step right up to the mike…

160 comments on “Open mike 07/09/2013 ”

  1. Ad 1

    Have you voted?
    (and I don’t mean Australian)

    • Morrissey 1.1

      It’s GOT to be Cunliffe. Robinson or Parker must be his deputy. Shane Jones is a flake, and should not be anywhere near the levers of power. Minister of Racing?

      • tc 1.1.1

        Minister for sealord, seriously jones needs to be shown the door if he doesnt walk on his own. He is a lazy businessman not a servant of the people which he shown on many occasions.

      • QoT 1.1.2

        People who can’t even get the names of the candidates right probably aren’t best placed to comment.

    • Kevin Welsh 1.2

      Yep, via the website as i could not get to the local meeting.

  2. LynWiper 2

    Almost half of women paid less than ‘living wage’

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11120965

    “Women are concentrated in those traditionally low-wage occupations – the three C’s, caring, cleaning and clerical work. They have been there for a long time, so it’s been a systemic issue.”

    • karol 2.1

      And around a third of men – damning stats. Also damning, though not intended to be by the article’s author, are the denials that these widespread low wages are a problem.

      • BM 2.1.1

        The problem is people who do very low skilled work and therefore only receive low pay trying to live a life that is impossible on their income.

        If the individual wants to improve their situation,there is only two options.

        1- Cut your expenses
        2. -Up skill.

        Any one with more than two brain cells realizes this, this living wage is nonsense and is pitched at the terminally stupid.

        • weka 2.1.1.1

          “The problem is people who do very low skilled work and therefore only receive low pay trying to live a life that is impossible on their income.”

          Cleaning, caring and clerical are not very low skilled jobs. If you’ve ever had someone clean your house/business/workplace who doesn’t know what they are doing then you would know that. Those jobs that women are doing are underpaid, because it is women doing them. I was going to say we don’t value the skills, but we do – think how important cleaning and hygiene are in our society. So why do we pay so low?

          The idea that people are incompetent at living on a low wage is ridiculous. Talk to people in places like Queenstown about how someone on low wages is expected to live there. Do you think that Queenstown doesn’t need cleaners? (hint, it’s not on Planet Key).

          • idlegus 2.1.1.1.1

            +1. & cleaning is bloody hard work! & of course by its nature often unpleasant. its one of those jobs i didn’t really value (or even think about) until i did it myself. i had a part time job years ago cleaning a bar in the mornings, was def an eye opener, ppl are pretty disgusting.

            but i should add i found the cleaning work quite rewarding when i had finished. i had great employers too.

        • QoT 2.1.1.2

          trying to live a life that is impossible on their income

          Yes, how dare they expect to be able to pay the rent and the power bill and have one hot meal a day. Fuckin’ scroungers.

      • LynWiper 2.1.2

        Totally agree karol.

        BM Not worth responding to your condescending attitude.

        • BM 2.1.2.1

          Have a look at this graph

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Hourly_Minimum_Wages_in_Developed_Economies,_2011.jpg

          We are number six on the list for highest minimum wage, above Canada,UK,Japan.

          What Labour is proposing would put us at the very top in fact 50 cents more per hour than the lucky country Australia.

          I can’t believe how irresponsible labour are and who are willing to bankrupt the country just to gain power.

          • miravox 2.1.2.1.1

            “We are number six on the list for highest minimum wage, above Canada,UK,Japan.”

            Maybe you should reflect on what countries are not on that list at all (hint: Europe).

            And then have a look at this map and see how many minimum wages are above the living wage for the country concerned.

            • bad12 2.1.2.1.1.1

              Then there is the often trotted out ”raising the minimum wage will lead to massive job losses” rubbish, or worse,”why not make it $30 an hour then”, which those with light-weight intellects like Farrar and Hooten squeal as opposition,

              Slippery the Prime Minister’s little scare tactic is the ”it will cost $2.5 billion” whine, as if any of us are proposing that the ‘living wage’ be legislated for in one rise from the present minimum,

              A series of raises over a 3 year period will spread that ‘cost’ across the economy in a logical 3 steps injecting into that economy around $800 million a year in extra wages, and while negative little intellects the likes of what Farrar, Hooten, and, Slippery the Prime Minister are see this as a ‘cost’ it is in reality for ALL business, big and small, a PROFIT OPPORTUNITY,

              Where after all do these people think that the extra money in the pay packets of the low waged economy is going to go, the share-market perhaps, a rental investment property or 2 to help drive up demand in the Auckland property market perhaps, perhaps stashed under the mattress,

              Such extra monies pumped into the economy will simply be spent back into that economy thus making any pay rises for the low waged economy that ‘Profit opportunity’ for business that it really is,

              Far from crying over the ‘cost’ of the ‘living wage’ all business big and small should be chomping at the bit ready to compete for a slice of that extra money in the economy…

              • BM

                So you see absolutely no negative impacts of raising workers wages by $5.00 an hour.?
                It’s going to be just awesome for everyone.

                • felix

                  “So you see absolutely no negative impacts of raising workers wages by $5.00 an hour.?”

                  To date no-one has raised any concern that bears scrutiny.

                  • BM

                    What about NZ manufacturers all these added wage costs having to be passed onto the consumer, how do you think they’ll get on competing against the same product imported from overseas? , it’s pretty hard going as it is, this living wage will make it a hell of a lot worse.

                    Manufacturing crisis here we come.

                    • felix

                      Like I said, none that bear scrutiny.

                      The companies that pay minimum wages aren’t in manufacturing.

                    • KJT

                      Ask yourself BM, how Germany can sell twice as many cars as the USA despite their auto workers being paid twice as much?

                      Hint. people on $13.75 an hour do not buy new cars.

                      And, as Felix says the companies that pay low wages are retail chains and fast foods, not manufacturing.

                    • BM

                      Wow, you guys really do live in your own little world.

                    • felix

                      Says the guy with nothing to back up his hunches.

                    • BM

                      How do you think stuff is put together and placed into boxes?
                      Hint it’s not a robot.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Manufacturing crisis here we come.

                      So you admit that manufacturing has been in crisis under a National Government then? I thought Key and English said it was all OK?

                    • BM

                      The high dollar was definitely hurting the exporters but as Key said there’s not a lot you can do about that.
                      And if any one would know, it’s Key.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Key learnt his trade as a financial speculator. It’s not surprising that he still favours their viewpoint.

                    • bad12

                      ”Not a lot you can do about the high dollar”, rubbish, BM you and Slippery the Prime Minister might operate in a bubble of seclusion but the rest of us see solutions evident from real world experience,

                      Simply ‘fix’ the currency so as it floats freely between heaven for exporters and heaven for importers,with an obvious bias toward exporters,

                      The Kiwi$ is still one of the most traded currencies in the world, not for the benefit of the NZ economy but for the benefit of you guessed it the money trading firms where the Prime Minister’s real loyalties are said to be at home…

                    • srylands

                      “Ask yourself BM, how Germany can sell twice as many cars as the USA despite their auto workers being paid twice as much?”

                      Because German cars are good cars and American cars are (too often?) bad cars?

                      Hey I can play that game!

                      “Ask yourself how Toyota can sell 5 times as many cars as the USA despite their auto workers in Guangzhou being paid 20% as much as USA auto workers?”

                      OOOhh ? I know it must be other factors!

                      Lets extend your fantasy. If we lift minimum wages to $18.40 per hour, the happy workers will become more productive. We can go back to making cars in NZ which the newly magically rich workers will buy.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      Hey shitlands. Why don’t you go wreck the economy of your home country instead.

                    • joe90

                      Oh dear, three of the seven most made in America cars including the Camry, the highest selling model, are Toyotas.

                      http://theweek.com/article/index/246327/the-7-most-made-in-america-cars-that-you-can-buy

                      http://kogodnow.com/autoindex/

                • bad12

                  BM,you and Slippery should stick to ‘rogering goats’,

                  Any negative impact of instituting the ‘Living Wage over a 3 or 4 year timescale will be negligible and far out-weighed by the positives, firstly business will suffer a ‘profit lag’ where profits would be expected to dip and then pick up markedly to reflect the extra $800 million yearly in the economy,

                  What you and your ilk seem to be suggesting is that business will cut off its nose to spite its own face and sack 10s of 1000s of workers,

                  That little proposition would presuppose that business is and has been running some form of welfare organization where they all are employing far far more workers than what they actually require to run their business’s and create their profit,

                  Only a fool would ascribe to such a theory and seeing as we have proven knowledge that you occupy such a demographic we all would expect nothing less than you ascribing to such views…

                  • bad12

                    Oh and befor i forget, does raising the minimum wage lead to job losses, not according to these people,

                    i will post yesterdays link just in case BM missed it along with another…

                    http://www.aneconomicsense.com/…/the-impact-of-increasing-the-minimum-wage-o...

                    And yet another debunking of the myth,

                    http://www.businessforafairminimumwage.org/…/research-shows-minimum-wage...

                    • bad12

                      And again, just to school BM in an effort to get Him/Her a little deeper into economic research than economics 101,

                      Raising the minimum is shown to have a small negative effect on employment, Initially, remember that ‘initially’, such a negative effect is in fact counter-intuitive to basic economic theory, and, i would suggest is based more on the ‘Politics’ of the employers concerned as opposed to sound business economics,

                      The NZ experience when the youth rate was abolished???,

                      ”16-17 year old’s unemployment initially increased by 1.4-2.6%, BUT, that negative impact on employment was not evident a year later in 2010”

                      http://www.blog.greens.org.nz/…/its-official-abolishing-youth-rates-did-not-increase...

                  • srylands

                    “where profits would be expected to dip and then pick up markedly to reflect the extra $800 million yearly in the economy,”

                    I don’t know what planet you live on. You will be lifting wage costs for cafes and small businesses by 30%. That will suppress demand for those services as prices rise.

                    We don’t WANT to give inflationary wage rises funded by state dictate to low income earners to be spent at the Warehouse.

                    You should go test your idiotic rants on a labour intensive small business owner. I can tell you have never run one.

                    • Te Reo Putake

                      Get back to us when you’ve learned the difference between the minimum wage and a living wage, Srylands.

                    • Descendant Of Sssmith

                      Let’s not pretend you’re worried about the small cafes and restaurants. If you were you’d tell McDonalds and Burger King and all the other big chains who pay low wages and take profits out of the country to fuck off.

                      Low wages simply benefit the corporate owner who can get economies of scale and pressure the government to pass legislation that benefits themselves.

                      Changes to laws such as allowing retail to open on Saturday and Sunday drove out many good small business owners who struggled to maintain their business for 7 days a week. The removal of centralised wage bargaining means that low wages became the dominant factor of competition rather than product or service.

                      It’s quite clear that I occasionally eat out / use a cafe because I earn more than the minimum wage. I can tell you if I was on minimum wage my eating out cafe use would be nil – the same as it was when I was paying 22.5% on my mortgage.

                    • KJT

                      I have Sryland.

                      I sold it when National got back in.

                      Knowing that the first thing they would do is cut the pay of my customers. Including businesses I subbed for.

                      And the second, is, pre-long or cause a recession, as right wing Governments, always do.

                      Time has proved me correct.

                    • bad12

                      SSLands, who is this ‘we’ you speak of, what you ‘want’ is of no importance to me and you are free to leave,

                      Please do, Vanuatu is a close country with a serious lack of an income tax system, you would enjoy that…

                  • srylands

                    “the rest of us see solutions evident from real world experience”

                    Your solutions indicate a dangerous fantasy land. I am sure that is your real world and you are genuine.

                    If NZ surrendered one of its main adjustment tools, what do you think the ratings agencies would do? Or are you going to fix interest rates too?

                    Your policies have been tried and failed – by Muldoon – one of the great socialist leaders. He failed.

                    • KJT

                      Muldoon tried to hold wages down, Artificially.

                      And borrowed for unaffordable election bribes for National’s cronies.

                      Just like Key’s destroying workers rights, to drop wages. And borrowing for unaffordable election bribes for cronies.

                      National has a long history of failure..

                    • Kevin Welsh

                      Ratings agencies!

                      Hah! You do realise srylands that their ‘ratings’ are just their opinion and not based on facts?

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_and_Poor%27s#Criticism

                      Read from the Criticism heading onwards. All nicely laid out with citations 🙂

                    • KJT

                      According to your hypothesis Srylands, the USA should be paying the highest interest rates in the world.

                      “Printing money” like there is no tomorrow. In debt for trillions.

                      In fact they are starting to grow sooner than all the followers of “Austerity”. Though they would have returned to growth much sooner if the stimulus had been given to low paid workers, not banks.

                      The ratings agencies had an epic fail.
                      No serious investor takes any notice of them any more, otherwise US bond rates would be hitting the roof.

                    • Colonial Viper

                      If NZ surrendered one of its main adjustment tools, what do you think the ratings agencies would do? Or are you going to fix interest rates too?

                      You do realise that the Reserve Bank targets the OCR it wants on a nightly basis and always hits it’s target?

                      Do you actually have any idea how the economy works? Because it sounds like you hold several major misconceptions.

          • QoT 2.1.2.1.2

            Mind-blowing information: things cost different amounts in different countries.

          • Rodel 2.1.2.1.3

            BM Not worth responding to your condescending attitude.

    • RedBaronCV 2.2

      Even I didn’t think it was that bad. So do rubbish collectors receive more than cleaners? If so why same work really?

      Seriously, this is a problem for all of us.
      Women, after relationship breakdown, provide all of the money for the kids less about $1500 per annum. So this is affecting a lot of kids as well, particularly if a living wage to support two kids is based on 1.5 adult earners.
      Secondly, with long education profiles, kids are dependent long after 15 years old which was the norm back in the 60’s so women are stumping up more. Kids are also born at older maternal ages so women have less time to save between child independence and retirement.

      This is creating a huge ticking demographic time bomb of older women with no money in retirement.

  3. LynWiper 3

    Todays Herald contribution re Labour leader candidates

    John Roughan: Cunliffe has the wind in his sails
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11120832

    “The man has a sense of theatre but it was more than that. The others were trying hard but Cunliffe had it. He spoke more quietly than them. He was calm, measured, ready.”

    This is also what I observed.

    “Cunliffe undeniably has the extra quality needed to lead an election campaign.”

    “He would go where wiser heads fear to tread. He doesn’t lack political courage.”

    Not so complimentary for Jones
    Fran O’Sullivan: Jones gets a pass on the third degree
    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/opinion/news/article.cfm?c_id=466&objectid=11120843

    • karol 3.1

      Within Roughan’s begrudging praise of Cunliffe’s there’s a few, unsubstantiated backhanders.

      • KJT 3.1.1

        Roughan also calls our 35 years of failure against Aussie and other similar countries, despite even better per capita resources and a similar export boom, good Government.

        Joke.

    • karol 3.2

      And O’Sullivan shows that Jones is not popular with women to the left and the right.

      Why doesn’t earthy Shane Jones just come out and say it? “I’m not just another Labour ‘soft cock’.”

      “I’m for big, bold economic policies to grow the economy”; “I’m against hitting ‘rich pricks’ with new taxes (after all some of my best friends are just that);” “I want new mines in Northland and gas fields in Taranaki – Labour’s communist mates in the Greens don’t know how to promote jobs …” You get the drift?

      All right, I apologise for the tasteless introduction, but listening to, watching and reading Shane Jones interviews can do that to a “gelding” (as we women are in the Jones lexicon), you know.

      Those who know the unvarnished Jones find the political snow job he is currently orchestrating during his extended bromance with TV3 political editor Patrick Gower and 3rd Degree’s Guyon Espiner and Duncan Garner is more than simply comical.

      • BM 3.2.1

        Women are not geldings.
        Jones was describing how the public perceive men within the labour party, and how that perception was being magnified with the manban carry on.

        • weka 3.2.1.1

          Jones’ gelding comment can be read either way.

          • BM 3.2.1.1.1

            It may be different in the labour party but normally Women don’t have willies.
            Which leads me to believe he was talking about Men not Women

            A gelding

            noun: gelding; plural noun: geldings

            1.a castrated animal, esp. a male horse.

            • weka 3.2.1.1.1.1

              “It may be different in the labour party but normally Women don’t have willies.”

              Yes, but gelding refers to testicals not penises, and both women and geldings don’t have balls. It’s an age old slur against women, that they’re lesser humans because they don’t have the right equipment. I’m surprised you are unaware of that.

          • miravox 3.2.1.1.2

            You’re being too conciliatory Weka, imo
            http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10895113

            It’s about making sure we get excellent candidates up and we select them. It’s as simple as that… and the overwhelming response is the public doesn’t want the country run by geldings.

            Jones was calling women geldings.I can’t see how this can be read as other than read that if women are selected and they’re not ‘better’ candidates than men, then the country will be run by geldings. i.e even if they behave like men and do a man’s job they are not masculine.

            • weka 3.2.1.1.2.1

              Thanks miravox, I’d forgotten the original quote.

              • Pasupial

                +1

                I almost found myself agreeing (in part) with BM there. That should have been warning enough in itself to fact check the quote!

                • BM

                  The way I read that is that Jones was saying the public doesn’t want the country run by weak MEN eg: Geldings.

                  Not a very politically astute comment to make because it implies that only men should be running the country.

        • Pasupial 3.2.1.2

          BM; also-ran con-man.

          Game-plan; Woman Elan over-ran manban.

      • bad12 3.2.2

        i am fast to condemn the ‘Jonolism’ of the likes of the Herald’s Fran O’Sullivan when they use their position with that particular rag to push their positions of utter bias,

        Today i have to give a ‘Hat-tip’ to Fran for what is in essence a good piece of telling it ‘like it is’ warts and all,

        Obviously only the hard core ‘groupy’ firmly ‘fixated’ on Jones as something or someone He is obviously not would find much to disagree with in O’Sullivan’s piece in the Herald today…

      • lurgee 3.2.3

        For the nth time the ‘gelding’ comment was not about women as such but candidates selected on something other than merit – he was expressing his opinion that affirmative action lists would result in inadequate candidates getting selected. A gelded horse is a castrated male, so the persistent interpretation is stupidly wrong.

        FWIW, I don’t agree with Jones on that matter – I think there are sufficient numbers of competent women out there to make putting together an all women, all competent short list a dawdle – and if Jones is the hallmark for competence, then it should be almost impossible for any woman not to do a better job.

        But misrepresenting his comment as specifically aimed at women is dimly myopic.

        Though his frequent references to genitalia is a bit creepy.

        • Hami Shearlie 3.2.3.1

          Remember Bob Clarkson?? Shane Jones sounds like a great companion for him!

        • miravox 3.2.3.2

          “candidates selected on something other than merit”

          Who, pray tell, were the candidates he was opining on who were to be selected on something other than merit and in the context of what?

          • lurgee 3.2.3.2.1

            ** Cheerfully walks into the ‘cunning’ trap **

            In that specific instance, it was all women short lists, as well you know. Please don’t play dumb or as phoney ingenuous questions.

            But the idea he was alluding to holds good whether it referred to preferential treament for women, Maori, gays, straight white males or whatever. If you aren’t getting there through merit, you’re not going to be up to the job – gelded. Which means castrated, not female, for the terminally hard of thinking.

            If Jones had really wanted to insult women, would he have chosen a term that specifically refers to males?

            • miravox 3.2.3.2.1.1

              “In that specific instance, it was all women short lists, as well you know. Please don’t play dumb or as phoney ingenuous questions”.

              That was a straight up question. That specific instance is specifically what he made the comment about.

              Whether it holds that he would use that insult for other situations was never posed. It trips of his tongue so lightly he’s probably used it many times.

              “If Jones had really wanted to insult women, would he have chosen a term that specifically refers to males?”

              He hates feminists – considers them male wannabes, I suspect, so yes.

    • Saarbo 3.3

      This sentence from Roughans article is a doozie, he must have been having a quiet chuckle to himself when he wrote this thinking “This one will get those people on The Standard riled up”

      “The consensus is hard for Labour MPs to maintain because their party outside Parliament does not share it. By and large the activists and unionists have had the sort of education that gives you a jaundiced understanding of economics. It is not until Labour people get a seat in Parliament and read their briefs that the consensus makes sense.”

      I’m just wondering what sort of education Roughan had, which allows him to accept the horrendous levels of inequality and poverty in New Zealand. Has he got a brain at all??? What an incredibly out of touch person he is.

      • karol 3.3.1

        Yep, that’s one of the backhanders, Saarbo.

      • QoT 3.3.2

        “The consensus is hard for Labour MPs to maintain because their party outside Parliament does not share it. By and large the activists and unionists have had the sort of wages and insecure employment that gives you a jaundiced understanding of economics. It is not until Labour people get a seat in Parliament and read their pay checks and pension plans that the consensus makes sense.”

        If you read it that way it could start to make more sense …

        • Sanctuary 3.3.2.1

          Roughan probably wrote the editorial a couple of weeks back that banged the same oligarchy drum –

          members votting for the leader

          “…carries risks not just for Labour but for the good government of New Zealand if the consensus between the two major parties on economic fundamentals is undermined by a leader’s public commitments in a campaign for the party’s vote.

          There is good reason to confine these elections to a party caucus. MPs are generally well briefed on policy issues and aware of the national interest. They also work closely with leadership contenders and are best-placed to assess their character and capabilities…”

          Roughan is a fundamentally not a believer in democracy – he supports an oligarchy/plutocracy of right thinking rich people.

          However, when taken together with Key’s attempts to paint a Labour/Green coalition as a far left devil beast the size and power of the forces being arrayed to defend neo-liberalism suddenly gains a focussed clarity. A new/y proud and invigorated left movement should be under no illusion of the difficulty and the defeats that lay ahead on the road to destroying the neo-liberal grip on power.

          Still, our great grandparents and great great grandparents defeated them and I personally think that once was done once, can be done twice.

      • Olwyn 3.3.3

        Despite Roughan’s obvious bias, he does put his finger on the point of tension with which Labour has been beset since Key gained office, and which has escalated since the beginning of his second term. What Roughan is not saying is that Key has upped the anti on “the consensus” so that poverty and inequality have reached a point where it is no longer possible for Labour to offer itself as a continuity government and hold to Labour principles (except perhaps cosmetically) at the same time.

        The election is just a year away, and there is clearly a groundswell of support for Cunliffe. And since MPs are paid to hold the government to account while in opposition and to seek office for themselves, you would expect them to pay attention to such things. But it seems that at least some of them would rather lose the election than put pressure on the economic consensus.

      • Hami Shearlie 3.3.4

        All that hair dye must have gone to his brain, I think, Saarbo – I wonder if he and Key and Banks get a job lot between them??

  4. Lanthanide 4

    As requested:
    @ Lynn: the [s] tag is broken.

  5. Tautoko Viper 5

    Yahoo publish data requests for NZ http://info.yahoo.com/transparency-report/nz/

    56% content disclosed, 22% only NCD disclosed, 11% rejected, 11% no data found

    9 Government requests
    More info on Anonymous twitter

  6. (i found this on the morning trawl..encryption-code-cracking explained..)

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/sep/06/nsa-surveillance-revelations-encryption-expert-chat

    “..The Guardian’s James Ball and cryptology expert Bruce Schneier will take your questions about revelations that spy agencies in the US and UK have cracked internet privacy tools..”

    phillip ure..

    • Murray Olsen 6.1

      I was interested in Bruce Schneier’s answer to a question about whether encryption can still be trusted:

      Schneier: I wrote about this explicitly here. I believe we still can trust cryptography. The problem is that there is so much between the mathematics of cryptography and the “encrypt” button on your computer, and all of that has been subverted.

      This fits with what I know about this stuff, and my suspicions. For their purposes, the spooks would rather have us believing that they have beaten the mathematics than that they have companies rolling over and getting their stomachs scratched.

      • Colonial Viper 6.1.1

        Yeah, far easier to subvert software implementations, or grab the message data before it is encrypted eg via a keylogger, than trying to brute force some bloody tightly written open source 256 bit algorithm.

        And treat every MS Windows/Android installation as if it is an active listening post…

  7. AsleepWhileWalking 8

    http://www.3news.co.nz/Woman-feels-humiliated-by-WINZ/tabid/367/articleID/312222/Default.aspx

    Note the careful framing at the beginning……this woman has worked all her life, always paid taxes etc.
    That’s right viewers, this story isn’t about one of those bludging, whinging, dope smoking layabouts. This is the OTHER kind of beneficiary – deserving of support.

    Huh.

    • Bill 8.1

      Think you’re being a bit harsh there AWW. I abhor the ‘deserving/undeserving’ wedge, but the reality is, that it’s only when the reasonably comfortable middle classes realise that the punitive WINZ culture can and will be applied to them too, that there will be any chance of killing the currency of that particular meme.

      From examples of ‘their’ possible situation, they can extrapolate in a general sense. But if examples of long term unemployed or whatever are used, they simply won’t identify with the examples given and nothing will change.

      • Rogue Trooper 8.1.1

        Yep.

      • Descendant Of Sssmith 8.1.2

        Technically the taxpayer has paid both her wages and her taxes. Appreciate she works for it but tis paid by the taxpayer none-the-less.

        The lack of empathy shown in the story for the people who every day are required as a matter of policy required to go seek budget advice on benefits that are two low is abysmal. If she’s finding it hard going from $70,000 per year how but some conviction that it must be even harder for those who go from minimum wage to benefit, or those who get only regular seasonal work, or those who only get part-time work.

        Most people on benefit budget well – they have to.

        Here’s the policy here:

        http://www.workandincome.govt.nz/manuals-and-procedures/income_support/extra_help/special_needs_grant/special_needs_grant-117.htm

        Applying reasonable steps obligation

        Generally, clients who have received Special Needs Grants, Advance Payments of Benefit, and Recoverable Assistance Payments on three or more grant dates during the past 12 months are required to take reasonable steps before they receive any additional payments.

        Reasonable steps should include actions that increase their income, reduce their costs, or improve their financial management.

        You should let clients know at their third grant date and each subsequent grant date that they are required to take reasonable steps and complete a budgeting activity, before they are able to receive further assistance. At their sixth grant date they will be required to participate in an intensive interview, take reasonable steps and attend a budgeting advice service.

        I don’t think features like this or articles like this:

        http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PO1307/S00189/new-welfare-reforms-catch-grandparents-raising-grandchildren.htm

        do any more than enforce the notion that beneficiaries are useless and bludgers. These articles try and say hey but we’re not like them other people – we’re special.

        I’d rather the debate was about lifting the incomes and support for all those who but for the grace of god go I.

        • amirite 8.1.2.1

          Yes, the classic “divide and rule” policy. While we’re hating on each other because there’s always someone worse off than us that ”doesn’t deserve help”, others are quietly lining their pockets with monies that should have trickled down to those in need.

      • weka 8.1.3

        Think you’re being a bit harsh there AWW. I abhor the ‘deserving/undeserving’ wedge, but the reality is, that it’s only when the reasonably comfortable middle classes realise that the punitive WINZ culture can and will be applied to them too, that there will be any chance of killing the currency of that particular meme.

        From examples of ‘their’ possible situation, they can extrapolate in a general sense. But if examples of long term unemployed or whatever are used, they simply won’t identify with the examples given and nothing will change.

        I’m in two minds about this. I think the risk is that two classes of beneficiaries get created. The deserving ones like the woman on Campbell Live, who wants to get off a benefit, wants to get back to work, and became unwell through no fault of her own (according to JC). And the undeserving ones, who are whoever ‘we’ judge them to be any given year.

        One of the things CL should have made clearer is that a large part of why that woman has had such a hard time is because WINZ currently operate a queueing system for appointments, where you get whichever staff member happens to be available at the time irrespective of if that staffer knows your case or history or not. The woman in the story obviously needs continuity of support (aka case management) so they don’t have to keep re-explaining everything. There is a story here for investigative journalism to look at why that system of case management was introduced a few years ago, compared to other systems.

        • Colonial Viper 8.1.3.1

          Introduced by Labour or by National?

          • weka 8.1.3.1.1

            That lastest version is Bennett’s. It’s pretty hard to see it as anything other than breaking compassion between staff and clients. Real cynics would also say it’s designed to make beneficiaries feel like shit (which it does), and thus encourage them to get off the benefit and/or stop asking for extra assistance. I’d love to see an official explanation for running things that way (probably crude cost efficiency in terms of staff hours).

            In general I would say that WINZ is distinctly more functional under a Labour govt than a NACT one, but Labour do some stupid shit sometimes too. One of the problems is that the internal restructuring happens on a fairly regular basis when govts change. At least they haven’t done a major rebrand this time.

  8. burt 9

    The Peoples Bank !!!!!

    This is a glorious state owned Bank established to deliver low cost banking to struggling New Zealanders…

    No…

    This is the state behaving like a corporate – watch the ideologically blind defend it in KiwiBank because it’s got to generate a return on investment for the investors while they slag “The Nasty Banks” for doing the same. I fail to see how differentiating who scoops the profit makes much difference to people struggling with mortgage interest rates …

    Shame on you KiwiBank !

    • Draco T Bastard 9.1

      /facepalm

      You really should learn to read:

      The move has been sparked by the Reserve Bank’s new restrictions on low-equity home loans.

      Kiwibank has been forced to do it because of the moves of the RBNZ. Essentially, the interest rates for people with less than 20% interest will be going up due to an increased restriction of money.

      • Colonial Viper 9.1.1

        I think burt is pushing for KiwiBank to greatly lower the cost of banking to NZers and to massively cut the profits made by the big four.

        I would back his contention 🙂

      • burt 9.1.2

        Kiwibank has been forced to do it because of the moves of the RBNZ. Essentially, the interest rates for people with less than 20% interest will be going up due to an increased restriction of money.

        Forced … right… they had no other choice ? They couldn’t have opted to make less profit on low equity loans under the banner of being The Peoples Bank ? That wasn’t an option for a Bank established with tax payers funds, to deliver low cost banking to struggling New Zealanders ?

        • QoT 9.1.2.1

          Well, not under a National government which insists all public services are run like “real” businesses, no. So you’re also advocating for a strong leftwing government which will run public services for the public good, instead of demanding dividend, after 2014? Awesome.

        • Draco T Bastard 9.1.2.2

          Forced … right… they had no other choice ?

          I’d say that they didn’t. Their costs will be going up and they’ve already have cut margins to the bone. They have two choices: 1) Put interest rates up across the board or 2) put them up only on those who it costs more to service.

          BTW, I’m not in favour of what they’re doing – just pointing out why they’re doing it. Mortgages should be at 0% interest.

    • Murray Olsen 9.2

      You must be even more worried about the interest rate charged on student loans, burt. That’s around 6%, which is more than KiwiBank’s highest rate. I’ll join you on the barricades, comrade!!

  9. Draco T Bastard 10

    Economists Say The Funniest Things

    Long but well worth reading. Here’s a video about one of the things that an economist said.

    • BLiP 10.1

      Classic!!

      . . . addiction ashpurashnul politics is nothing more than the gradual implemntation of a time-consistent, forward-looking, welfare-maximising, inter-temporal consumption plan . . .

      . . . now it all makes sense 🙂

    • Rogue Trooper 10.2

      cool read: filed under ‘Tomorrow’.

  10. alwyn 11

    I opened my local paper (The Dominion/Post) expecting to see a couple of front page stories and an editorial.
    One front page story should have been a detailed coverage of Shane Jones sado-masochistic dreams about John Key.
    The Editorial should have been a statement that Jones is unfit to be a New Zealand MP and the Labour party should be demanding that he step down from Parliament immediately.
    The other front page story should have been a joint statement from Cunliffe and Robertson. They should have stated that if Jones is elected leader they will resign from the caucus and become independent MPs. They should also have said that if they become leader they will ensure that Jones is expelled from Caucus and they will do their best to see that he is expelled from the party and is removed from consideration as an electorate or list MP in the future.
    What did I see?
    Nothing of the sort. Jones of course, to Fairfax, is like every other leftward leaning politician and can do no wrong. Cunliffe and Robertson aren’t going to risk their own spot at the trough by showing any integrity in the affair.
    Why do the Labour party put up with a man like Jones?

    • tc 11.1

      Exactly alwyn its this lack of housekeeping that holds labour to a middle of the road perception that they are all the same in the sheeple swinger land.

      A perception the nats were relying on with DS at the helm to keep participation levels low in 2014.

      If cunliffe wins, and its by no means certain with the old guard still scheming away, he should place robertson as deputy to shore up caucus and read the riot act to some complete dropkicks like curran, hipkins etc.

      A big task for labour is getting better candidates in winnable seats not lazy ineffective types like carol beaumont and adern who does nothing to take akl central.

      • Neoleftie 11.1.1

        Totally agree there..
        On Clare curran, at least she has taken some good advise and minimised her use of twitter. Limits here idiotism.
        Anyway all I say is go the greater left block within the caucus, whoever can deliver after the flowery and full of promises rhetoric are done with.

  11. millsy 12

    Srylands and BM.

    Why do you want wages held down?
    Do you own rental property?
    If yes did you put you rent up last year?

    And to you think people have too much money?

    • tc 12.1

      Millsy trolls do as instructed, more wages means they can charge more rent but thats counter to the spin line and they never mention that other neo lib spinner…trickle down which has been comprehensively debunked.

    • BM 12.2

      1- People should be paid what they’re worth.
      2- No
      3 -No, you can never have too much money.

    • srylands 12.3

      Why do you want wages held down?

      No

      Do you own rental property?

      Yes

      If yes did you put you rent up last year?

      No

      And to you think people have too much money?

      No

  12. bunny mcdiarmond from greenpeace just saw off the infidels…

    http://whoar.co.nz/2013/comment-the-nation-a-review-simon-bridges-runs-rings-around-his-interviewer-the-interviewer-is-that-guy-who-used-to-be-on-morming-report-i-call-him-tgwutbomr-and-whod-a-thunk-it-br/

    (excerpt..)

    “….and the interviewer is showing an ineptitude/sloppiness i thought beyond him..”

    phillip ure..

    • aerobubble 13.1

      Yeah, saw that. First I thought what a poor interviewer, lousy stitch up padding the debate as a contest between the environment and the economy. Then one lone guest up against the shabby interviewer, the nonsense Bridges was bleating, and two others, put it all in context, it was old economy against the new economy.

      See the pattern. National wants oil over renewables,
      want roads over public transport, want big foreign
      owned dairy farms over local manufacturing. Fifty
      years ago we needed a dual carriageway connecting
      Auckland and Wellington, not so much today. Fifty years
      of oil and now National want to keep the old aged, aging,
      oil industry alive. Its National who want to continue
      the success of selling off assets to rent seekers
      like it was ever a successful strategy.

      No, don’t see the patteen, its called weakness,
      the National party fears progressive decision making,
      and goes with tired old hollywood in an era of
      internet communications, and the one exception,
      broadband even there they have gotten frightened
      and reworked the payments to crush the rollout.

      They are the post-modernist luddites. Tried and true
      can’t be wrong, well sure if you ignore climate change,
      ignore an aging population, ignore resource limits,
      ignore accumulated wealth that grinds the world
      economy into stagnation. The industrial revolution
      would never have happen had Key been in power.

      Now don’t get me started, Labour are not much better,
      they did grab the progessive neo-liberal agenda
      that sharfed their base, and funneled wealth to the
      top few for thirty years, it was progressive yet wrong
      and quite contrary to their parties beliefs. National
      are were never capable of bringing in Rogernomics.

      I Vote Green the progressive conservationists.

      And why nuclear power protests says the interviewer like
      he can’t imagine… …oh what a soap box for the right.

    • ghostrider888 13.2

      “…the fact of the matter is…” Simon Bridges has caught the ‘ackshully’ idiom, and has the depth to call Neill and Lawless out as “hypocrites”?, while the CEO of the Petroleum Exploration and Production Association acknowledges that “this government has a good relationship with our sector and (is) growing our industry”.
      Geez Nigel!

  13. Virginia Linton 14

    Yes Alwyn, the anti-Key Jones tirade was a bizarre circus act; he should be careful, he’s harming his chances of migrating to his natural home with National or NZ First.

    • tc 14.1

      They wouldn’t take him. His closet is full of skeletons they would be aware of that’s why they want him to lead labour so they do a skeleton dance in the 14 campaign.

    • alwyn 14.2

      And just when do you think Robertson or Cunliffe will disown him?
      When do you think they will come out and say they cannot work with him?
      When are they going to say that his views are disgusting?

      Long, long silence.

  14. Colonial Viper 15

    Polish Govt takes private retirement fund assets for itself

    If the top 20% can’t see what is happening in the world, and that it is also very bad for them unless they join up and stand against it…

    By way of background, Poland has a hybrid pension system: as Reuters explains, mandatory contributions are made into both the state pension vehicle, known as ZUS, and the private funds, which are collectively known by the Polish acronym OFE. Bonds make up roughly half the private funds’ portfolios, with the rest company stocks.

    And while a change to state-pension funds was long awaited – an overhaul if you will – nobody expected that this would entail a literal pillage of private sector assets.

    On Wednesday, Prime Minister Donald Tusk said private funds within the state-guaranteed system would have their bond holdings transferred to a state pension vehicle, but keep their equity holdings. The funds would effectively be left with only the equities portions of their assets, even this would be depleted, and there will be uncertainty about the number of new savers joining.

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2013-09-06/poland-confiscates-half-private-pension-funds-cut-sovereign-debt-load

    • joe90 15.1

      Trickle down, again.
      /

      In his government’s domestic policy, Tusk has pursued the continuation of free-market policies, streamlining the bureaucracy, enacting long-term stable governance, cutting taxes to attract greater foreign business ventures, luring foreign-working Poles back to Poland, and privatizing state-owned companies. The construction of a more adequate and larger national road network in preparation for the UEFA 2012 football championships has been a stated priority for the Tusk government.

      • Colonial Viper 15.1.1

        bet you a million dollars that Goldman Sachs is advising the Polish govt.

        • srylands 15.1.1.1

          Looks like they are doing a good job then.

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.1.1

            The handicraft of the bankster economic hitmen is very obvious.

            • joe90 15.1.1.1.1.1

              Poland started with a different Sachs but sure enough, the other bunch couldn’t resist.

              http://jeffsachs.org/

            • joe90 15.1.1.1.1.2

              They’re part of the crew running the book on Bank Zachodni WBK SA.

              The consortium of investment banks includes Deutsche Bank, Citi, Morgan Stanley, Bank of American Merrill Lynch, Credit Suisse, as well as KBC Securities and Santander Investment, who are joint global coordinators and join bookrunners, BZWBK said in a market filing.

              Goldman Sachs and UBS are also on as joint bookrunners.

        • alwyn 15.1.1.2

          No, they probably got the idea from Argentina, which seized private pension funds in 2008.
          I very much doubt that they were a client of Goldman Sachs, do you think?.
          The Green party in New Zealand seem to be getting the same idea though. They talk about how they would invest KiwiSaver funds, which of course are people’s private superannuation.
          They want to put the money into their favourites, ie things that don’t make any economic sense but give them the warm fuzzies.

          • Colonial Viper 15.1.1.2.1

            What do you know Alwyn?

            joe90 found evidence that Goldman Sachs is in Poland, boots and all. Economic hitmen, the bodies they leave behind are obvious.

            As for your Argentina claims – link please.

  15. Rogue Trooper 16

    “You don’t know what you don’t know”
    Elizabeth Rata on the Decline and Fall of knowledge.(with a little ‘name-dropping’ for good measure).

    The Geography of Thought may be a good map to consult; there can be no exclusion of the middle of a journey.

    • Morrissey 16.1

      Rogue Trooper, what drug induced you to quote that foolish, pretentious and deservedly obscure minor academic? She has been utterly discredited, not least by this writer, i.e. moi….

      Open mike 07/06/2013

      • Rogue Trooper 16.1.1

        speaking of drugs…, a cup of tea and a Doobie in the sun awaits bro’ 😎

      • Rogue Trooper 16.1.2

        sorry, multi-tasking. 😉 Surprise, surprise my satirical friend, I remember that post of yours, you can take the boy from the ride yet you can’t take derida (sic) from the boy: It was the theme of the article that interested moi, the quote is not originally Rata’s.
        Now Ed awaits Mr; nothing like a little hokie sentimentalism to put the world to rights! 😀

        • Morrissey 16.1.2.1

          Right you are, Rogue. Although I’m always ready to derrida fraud like Elizabeth Rata, I respect your work. Enjoy that doob, my friend.

        • lprent 16.1.2.2

          multi-task with a tea, a “doobie”, and sun. Ummm I suspect that is more of a delusional fallacy than reality. Drift is the word that springs to mind…

          Unless of course if you are still putting that relaxing posture into place.

          • Rogue Trooper 16.1.2.2.1

            drift is an excellent choice of word.

          • Rogue Trooper 16.1.2.2.2

            …and it must be conceded, an interactive, well-moderated, stimulating blog opens up connections in the brain / mind; a relatively healthy, informative distraction.
            After all, even the ‘Wild West’ had a Holliday.

            • phillip ure 16.1.2.2.2.1

              re/@ ‘stimulating blog’..

              ..(ahem..!..)..have you not found whoar yet..?

              ..so ‘stimulating’ you need a wee lie down/herbal-sedative..after all the excitement..

              phillip ure…

          • phillip ure 16.1.2.2.3

            @ ‘multi-task with a tea, a “doobie”..’

            i think you will find that many..(ahem..!..myself included..)..find the tea/doob-combo to often be a launching pad for creative/other bursts of activity..

            ..for fans/many..it is the perfect mix of relaxant and stimulant..

            ..(kinda like a poor mans’ speedball (heroin/cocaine mix)..that mix of the up and down..coming together to make something new..and interesting..)

            ..why..!..just today it launched me into both a couple of hours of frenzied spring-cleaning of abode..and a serious burst of news-gathering..

            ..so..y’know..!..not everyone wants to curl up in the corner with a lollipop after a doob..

            ..and especially not after a doob and a strong cup of tea…

            ..and if there is ‘drift’..

            ..that ‘drift’ can take you to interesting places..

            ..and i mean..even ‘geniuses’ use(d) drugs..

            http://www.alternet.org/drugs/10-geniuses-who-used-drugs-and-their-drugs-choice

            ..so who are we mere mortals to quibble..?

            phillip ure..

            • lprent 16.1.2.2.3.1

              Smoked a few times at uni about 1980. Found that it destroyed my concentration for programming for about 3 days afterwards. Excessive booze was only a day.

              To get to a creative state, all I have to do is to read a book I have already read, or to have a think about a problem before I go to sleep – and I usually do both most nights.

              I’d point out that I am greenfield system designer/programmer. People pay me quite a lot for long periods to be creative and to finish projects.

    • Draco T Bastard 16.2

      “You don’t know what you don’t know”
      Elizabeth Rata on the Decline and Fall of knowledge.

      Sounds like the usual RWNJ approach to education – wrote learning.

  16. Greywarbler 17

    http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/shane-jones-unapologetic-targeting-pm-s-sensitive-spot-5574342
    Fri 6/9
    ONE News political reporter Michael Parkin says after a week of relatively clean campaigning around the country, we have finally seen a one of the three Labour leadership candidates deliver “a low blow” to the Prime Minister.
    At last night’s hustings meeting in Hamilton, Shane Jones said: “I’m going to tie a bungy cord around a sensitive spot. And then I’m going to get those calipers, and cut them. And then the trader from Wall Street, and then the mercenary of capitalism, can suffer what he deserves – a dead cat bounce.”

    Rational thinking man presenting himself and his thoughts on political policy to thinking citizens? A stand up comedian of the low joke kind as leader of the Labour Party? Appealing to the working class, which is what Jones says he is trying to do, what calibre of people I wonder? The suitable venue would be at the pub after an afternoon or even day’s drinking, and talking about how good the last spear tackle was, how good the under sized paua tasted, and making appreciative remarks about women with big breasts spilling out of their low cut tops, while they talk about them as c…s and use the word f..k freely and probably motherf……r. As a package it’s a brown-paper wrapped bo…..b.

    • alwyn 17.1

      “The suitable venue would be at the pub …”
      For goodness sake there is NO suitable venue for views of that nature.

      • Greywarbler 17.1.1

        True, for the sake of goodness there shouldn’t be views of that nature. But there are a lot of views like that around. So what’s your point. Are you going to clean up the town!?

  17. Morrissey 18

    LIARS OF OUR TIME
    No. 28: John Kerry

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
    “…we are especially sensitive, Chuck and I, to never again asking any member of Congress to take a vote on faulty intelligence.”

    * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

    —-U.S. Secretary of State, serial liar and Al-Qaeda bag-carrier JOHN KERRY, 3 September 2013
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10285033/John-Kerry-US-inaction-on-Syria-would-send-a-terrible-message.html

    See also….
    No. 27 Lyse Doucet: “I am there for those without a voice.”
    No. 26 Sam Wallace: “So here we are—Otahuhu. It’s just a great place to be, really.”
    
No. 25 Margaret Thatcher: “…no British government involvement of any kind…with Khmer Rouge…”

    No. 24 John Key: “…at the end of the day I, like most New Zealanders, value the role of the fourth estate…”


    No. 23 Jay Carney: “…expel Mr Snowden back to the U.S. to face justice…”
    

No. 22 Mike Bush: “Bruce Hutton had integrity beyond reproach.”


    No. 21 Tim Groser: “I think the relationship is genuinely in outstanding form.”


    No. 20 John Key: “But if the question is do we use the United States or one of our other partners to circumvent New Zealand law then the answer is categorically no.”


    No. 19 Matthew Hooton: “It is ridiculous to say that unions deliver higher wages! They DON’T!”

    No. 18 Ant Strachan: “The All Blacks won the RWC 2011 because of outstanding defence!”


    No. 17 Stephen Franks: “Peter has been such a level-headed, safe pair of hands.”
    

No. 16 Phil Kafcaloudes: “Tony Abbott…hasn’t made any mistakes over the past eighteen months.”


    No. 15 Donald Rumsfeld: “I did not lie… Colin Powell did not lie.”


    No. 14 Colin Powell: “a post-9/11 nexus between Iraq and terrorist organizations…connections are now emerging…”
    No.13 Barack Obama: “Simply put, these strikes have saved lives.”


    

No. 12 U.K. Ministry of Defence: “Protecting the Afghan civilian population is one of ISAF and the UK’s top priorities.”


    No. 11 Brendan O’Connor: “Australia’s approach to refugees is compassionate and generous.”


    No. 10 Boris Johnson: “Londoners have… the best police in the world to look after us and keep us safe.”
    

No. 9 NewstalkZB PR dept: “News you NEED! Fast, fair, accurate!”
    

No. 8 Simon Bridges: “I don’t mean to duck the question….”
    

No. 7 Nigel Morrison: “Quite frankly, they’ve been VERY tough.”
    


No. 6 Herald PR dept: “Congratulations—you’re reading New Zealand’s best newspaper.”



    No. 5 Rawdon Christie: “…a FORMIDABLE replacement, it seems, is Claudette Hauiti.”

    


No. 4 Willie and J.T.: “The X-Factor. Nah, nah, there’s some GREAT talent there!”



    No. 3 John Key: “Yeah we hold MPs to a higher standard.”
    


No. 2 Colin Craig: “Oh, I have a GREAT sense of humour.”
    


No. 1 Barack Obama: “Margaret Thatcher was one of the great champions of freedom and liberty.”

  18. Don't worry. Be happy. 19

    Mr Robertson,
    As you are trailing so badly in the political polls will you be more of a statesman than the leader you so long supported (Shearer) and stand aside in order to empower the candidate the NZ population are picking as the next Leader of the Labour Party and the person most likely to take on Key and win the election next year?

    [lprent: Moved to OpenMike – that is a rant framed as a question ]

  19. Rogue Trooper 20

    Excellent Rail and Maritime, 4500 members, 1.2% and Dairy Workers, 7000 members, 2.5% get behind David Cunliffe.

    Oops, that was meant for the Grant Somebody thread,

    and it appears that support for US intervention is falling at home, 225 senators against;
    Putin-“Will we help Syria, we will!” Got those anti-Tomahawk / Cruise missile defense systems being constructed.
    Less than a 1/3 of G20 supportive. Liberte, egalite, fraternite Heh!

    • “..”Will we help Syria, we will!”..”

      this is one of the delusions currently driving the americans/local warmongers..

      ..some unhinged belief that assad/syria will just lie down and take it if france/hollande and america/obama (with key/nz as lap-puppy-of-war..?..)..decide to rain death down upon them..

      ..assad/syria is armed to the teeth with the latest state-of-the-art (russian-supplied) missiles etc..

      ..and he/syria will strike back

      ..which could set/kick-off some serious shit..

      ..and just think for a moment..if it turns out the american-side/’rebels’ were the ones who launched this chemical-attack..?

      ..(4-5 stories i found today are making this a very strong possibility..)

      ..and just the basic logic is kinda compelling..

      ..if e put to one side for a mment that assad isn’t a mad fucken dog..and has a brain..he/his land forces are already winning this war..so why would he..?

      ..and that’s aside from the fact that assad wastrying to clear his name of previous allegations..and had invited the un to inspect to clear his name..

      ..so once again..putting aside the mad fucken dig theory..

      ..why the hell would ghe..?..then../

      ..whereas for the losing america/rebels..they had every reason to do it..)

      ..and if so this is a war crime of stunning proportions evil from obama/america..

      ..phillip ure..

      • phillip ure 20.1.1

        and if orders/knowledge/planning of this war-crime can be traced back to the americans/obama..?

        ..whoar..!

        ..eh..?

        ..it’ll make watergate look like a misdemeanor.

        ..eh..?

        (‘war-crime’..such a strange/sanitising-term..

        ..as all war is a ‘crime’..

        ..innocent victims and all..

        ..eh…?..)

        ..phillip ure..

        .

        • muzza 20.1.1.1

          The wars are created, where the bankers dictate, its as simple as that.

          Of course its not the bankers, but those who site behind the banks, the owners and controllers.

          Who they are, is debatable, but they, are in control of much of the mess, certainly anything which in directly financial, or can be controlled by finance, so more or less, everything!

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